January 2, 2025 • 31 mins
In this episode, Lisa discusses transgender issues with Chloe Cole, a young woman who transitioned at a young age and later detransitioned. Chloe shares her personal journey, detailing her experiences with medical interventions and the challenges of detransitioning. The conversation highlights the impact of social media on body image, the role of medical professionals, and the importance of advocating for the rights and health of children. The Truth with Lisa Boothe is part of the Clay Travis & Buck Sexton Podcast Network - new episodes debut every Monday & Thursday.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
We've had Chloe Cole on the show before. She was
just a kid when she wanted to transition, when she
started to feel like she was questioning who she was,
who she's supposed to be, feeling like she's in the
wrong body, so she took steps to do that. She
took puberty blockers. The adults around her told her that
this was the right thing to do. She got a
(00:22):
double misectomy at fifteen years old and then deeply regretted
it just a couple of years later. We've interviewed her
before in her compelling story.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
She told us about that not too long ago.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
But I want to have her on the show again
because since that conversation a lot's changed in the country.
We have an incoming president elect Donald Trump. We have
where the issues surrounding transgender issues really played out this
past election cycle. I mean, we all remember that ad
for the Trump campaign of Kamala Harris is for they them,
(00:56):
I'm for you. Or we looked at Senate races in
the country where ads about men trying to play in
women's sports also aired.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
And then we have this case before the.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Supreme Court, which we discussed recently on the podcast. Over
Tennessee's ban on surgeries for minors, which could have much
broader these sweeping implications for a lot of other legal
fights over transgender or over issues like bathroom access and
participation in school sports as well.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
A lot going on.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
A lot's happened since that last conversation with her, so
I want to have her on the show again. We're
going to reiterate talk about her story again, just to
remind everyone because it's so important, talk about how it's
been for her. She was in DC for the Supreme
Court oral arguments that took place over Tennessee's ban, So
what's that been like for her to see these wins,
(01:45):
to see momentum moving on her side? How hard has
it been for her as a de transitioner to be
out in the fight at She's only twenty years old,
so what's that process been like for her? How hard
is that for her? We'll also talk about now that
Donald Trump has won, now that we have this incoming
Trump administration, what does she hope the Trump administration does
and Donald Trump does to stop the mutilation of children
(02:09):
in our country. I promise you this is a conversation
worth listening to. She's so brave at such a young age,
a compelling story that you need to hear. So please
please stay tuned for Chloe Cole. Chloe Cole, it's so
great to.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Have you on the show.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
First of all, it's been a while since we've caught up,
so you know, how are you doing?
Speaker 3 (02:32):
Doing pretty good?
Speaker 4 (02:33):
You know, I just got back from this crazy DC
trip and I've been home for a few days.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
I've been with my family.
Speaker 4 (02:39):
It's been it's been really nice and relaxing, especially after
this busy whirlwind of a year.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
But they're all they're all.
Speaker 4 (02:45):
The the busy, the busyness, the crazy moments, It's all
been worth it.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
I just want to tell you, like, I'm so proudy
we've not actually like met in person, but you know,
it's hard to be brave. Someday, I yeah, and I
can't wait. I can't wait to meet. But it's hard
to be brave in today's society. And like, you're much
younger than me, and I don't know if I would
have the guts to fight the battles that you've been
fighting at your age, and so it takes a lot
of bravery to be out there, and especially with all
(03:13):
the incoming and the arrows that you've taken, and so
I think you're really a big, big reason why a
lot of these states have taken action to ban surgeries
for minors. And so I just want to tell you, like,
I'm really proud of you because it's not easy. I'm
sure it's been a battle and you've probably have second
guess why you decided to put yourself out there on
(03:34):
all this, But you should be really proud of yourself
because it's not easy to be brave and you are.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
Well that means a lot. Thank you so much. Yeah,
I mean, it's it's really not easy all the.
Speaker 4 (03:46):
Time for so many different reasons. I mean, people say
a lot of horrible stuff to me and like, but
doing what I do doesn't come without the threat stuff
people make to me, and it can it can really
wear down on me, especially like when I don't have
all the time in the world with my family or
(04:07):
at home or just being in one place. But it's
also a really beautiful experience to being able to advocate
for this cause, something that I never really that I
never thought I would be doing in a million years
at the beginning of this, and just meeting.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
All these wonderful people along the way.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
You know, like not a lot of people can actively
say that, you know, they're saving lives, but you know
that's what you're doing with your advocacy to protect children
from going through what you went through.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
I mean, how cool was that to be at.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
The Supreme Court where they were having these oral arguments
over Tennessee's ban on surgery for transgender minors. You know,
how how was that to be there and to sort
of see all the hard thought battles that you've been through,
sort of to realize and the fact that you know
(05:04):
very well could be a huge win for protecting minors
across the country from having to go through what you
went through.
Speaker 4 (05:11):
Well in the way, it was very It was kind
of surreal just being there, and.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
It gave me.
Speaker 4 (05:20):
I had this moment where I was reflecting on the
fact that I'm a part of this massive movement and
I'm surrounded by all these people who I love and
I've fought, I've fought alongside, and all of our work
just within the past three years has led to this point.
I mean, it's I really can't think of any other
(05:40):
political movements in US history that has been nearly as
successful or as fast as this has been.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
And I think what's funny about life sometimes is you know,
when you take stands like this, sometimes you lose, you know,
some of the friends that you had, but then you
make new ones as well, and you form these new
relationships and you sort of alluded to that before or
have you found friends who have also be transitioned and
sort of found like camaraderie in that of you know,
(06:08):
finding like minded people who have sort of been through
this process and know what it's like.
Speaker 4 (06:14):
Yeah, I mean I have definitely lost friends along along
the way, from from from from school, friends from the
transgender community. But I've also made a lot more and
I've learned who the real friends and my real allies
really are. Not many of those people are other transitionend
(06:34):
individuals who have had the pleasure of meeting and some
of them are publicly facing, and a lot of them
have chosen not to for personal reasons. And either way,
like I really, I just really love these people and
it's really helped my healing a lot to be with
other men, other women who know what it's like to
(06:57):
go through this and come out of it.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
We've got to take a quick commercial break more with
Chloe on the other side. We did an interview you know,
a while ago for those who have not been able
to listen to that, who are unfamiliar. So you were
twelve years old when you began transitioning. Kind of take
the audience through on that journey and when you realize that,
(07:20):
you know what, this isn't right, this isn't how I
want to be living my life, you know, kind of
take us through that journey for those who are unfamiliar.
Speaker 4 (07:28):
So during my childhood, in the days before I underwent
a gender trendition, I was growing up as kind of
a stereotypical tomboy.
Speaker 3 (07:41):
In a lot of ways I had.
Speaker 4 (07:44):
I'm the youngest of five kids, and I've got two
older brothers and two older sisters, and so I had
a bit of influence from both sexes. But I found
that I just connected more to the male role models
around me and and I at first I took pride
in this, you know, but it felt like another started
(08:06):
to feel, especially as I went into middle school, another
thing that just set me apart from my peers. And
from a very very young age, I always felt like
there was something that was just different about me.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
I didn't always get along with other kids.
Speaker 4 (08:18):
I didn't always understand how other kids socialized or worked,
and I found that to be very difficult. And over
the years, it was like I just kept wondering, like,
what is it that makes me difference? Is there something
wrong with me? And I really started to fixate on myself.
Speaker 3 (08:38):
And then the change and.
Speaker 4 (08:39):
Paberty came for me pretty early. I was about nine
when my breasts started to come in. With that came
a lot of unwanted sexual attention for me that unfortunately
eventually materialized into a few assaults, and I just felt
so uncomfortable throughout a lot of my formative years with
my femininity. I stumbled upon the transiender community online when
(09:02):
I was about twelve years old, and it was like
I finally found this way that I could explain myself
why I felt different and perhaps a fix for my
feelings of distress around my sex and around being female
and around my body.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
So I started calling myself a boy.
Speaker 4 (09:19):
I started calling myself by a boy name, and then
eventually I told my mom and dad about it, and
they're very shocked to hear this from me. I mean,
I don't really think that any parent expects to hear
their daughter coming up to them saying like, I don't
want to be your daughter anywhere. I want to be
your son. I'm a boy now and I want you
to call me that. My mom and dad correctly saw
this as an issue of my mental health, so they
(09:43):
started having me see a therapist in hopes that we
would be getting help, that they would be guided in
raising me through these feelings and that I would just
be allowed to maybe experiment with my expression, but just
grow up and not have any intervention. But unfortunately they're
(10:06):
completely wrong in this. My mom and dad were completely
wrong in this assumption that the doctors would handle this
just fine.
Speaker 3 (10:14):
They were goaded.
Speaker 4 (10:16):
The doctors were goading my mom and dad into letting
me go down the medical past. They told them there
is no other option, like this is life or death
for your child. If you don't allow her to medically
transition or take the take the distosterone, or take the
beauty blockers, or get surgery down the line, you're risking
your daughter's life. She could eventually commit suicide if you
(10:38):
say no. And it's really that this is a common
tactic that they use to leverage to get leverage over
the parents to go them and doing something that they
wouldn't usually do because they're in fear of their child's life.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
And no parent wants to be in that position, and.
Speaker 4 (10:56):
I really do I don't blame my mom and dad
for saying yes treatment for that reason, because they were
really back into a corner and told.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
That they could lose me.
Speaker 4 (11:05):
So I was thirteen years old, I wasn't even finished
with middle school yet when I began the first few
medical interventions and it began with lupron, which is a
drug that previously has been used to caste shape, to
chemically cash straight sex offenders, and in late stage cancer patients.
And this is being given to me as a perfectly
healthy child who was going through a normal puberty. And
(11:28):
then they put me on weekly injections of testosterone very
shortly after that, and at fifteen years old, the doctors
used that same lie of suicide to convince my mom
and dad into letting me have surgery, and I underwent
a radical double mastectomy to get rid of my healthy
breasts and fun. The interesting thing is that it was
(11:52):
a surgery. It was the postop period where I realized
just how drastic, just how much of it told this
was taking on my body. And I was sixteen when
I had this epiphany that I wanted to have children
one day, that I wanted to become a mother and.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
A wife, and.
Speaker 4 (12:13):
This lifestyle, this treatment that I was put on, was
actually infringing upon my childhood innocence as well as taking
away potentially these major parts of my adulthood, these things
I didn't know that I valued until that point, because
I still very much was a child. And I made
the decision to be trendition because it just hit me
(12:37):
how much I could be losing, and also the fact
that none of these treatments were actually going to turn
me to young men. But I was beautiful just the
way that I was, and I didn't have to change myself.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
And I've since been speaking.
Speaker 4 (12:51):
Out about this experience, about this experience that I went through,
that my mom and dad, my fa family went through
with me, and the way the abuses of the medical
system against us, and advocating for the rights to parents
and of course the safety and health of children, because
(13:13):
I don't believe that this ever is appropriate for children.
I feel I think that children deserve better than to
be given a lie about this fundamental part of who
they are.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
And hearing what you say what you just said, you know,
it really stood out to me when you said, you know,
you realize I'm beautiful just the way I am. And
I feel like that's something you know, even like when
I go back to when I was in middle school,
and you know, that's something that we all struggle with, right,
It's just a human struggle.
Speaker 3 (13:39):
When you're young, and especially young lemon.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Yes, but you know, I also didn't have to deal
with Instagram and social media and and TikTok and right,
and so you didn't have all these like images and
society sort of being shoved down your throat in the
way that you had to or you know, middle school
or and high schoolers now have to do. I mean,
how I guess how hard is that to grow up
(14:05):
in sort of like this, this social media world where
I mean it puts us more of those doubts in
your mind about you know, and by the way, I'm
supp you know, like I can't imagine how hard. So, like,
how about social media's influence on all of that as well?
Speaker 4 (14:18):
Yeah, for me, social media was a huge part of
that because I mean, most women across pretty much every
generation while growing up, especially in the adolescent period of
their life, as issues with their body image. They're uncomfortable
with all the changes that is happening from going through puberty.
(14:44):
They feel like they're too grown up. They feel like
they're not grown up enough in their body, they feel
like they're not developed enough, or they feel like their
body brings them too much tension. I definitely had those
feelings growing up. But the difference is that the women
in the JED generations that came before mine, they didn't
have social media at a young age. They weren't exposed
(15:08):
to all of these hyper sexualized all these hyper edited
images really almost currica caricatures of what FEMININDI and womanhood
really is. I started having I got my first phone
when I was about eleven years old, and I went
(15:32):
straight to social media right because that's what everybody else
my age was using. And one of the first platforms
that I used was Instagram.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
Because Instagram is so image oriented.
Speaker 4 (15:46):
It it makes way for a lot of these models
and all these women who've had work done or do
photoshop on their photos or just curate them in some
way to beautify themselves as best as possible. And I
felt like I couldn't match up. I felt like, well,
(16:07):
this is what FEMININDI really looks like. How am I
ever going to match up?
Speaker 3 (16:12):
Like? How am I ever going to be a good woman?
Speaker 4 (16:15):
I grew up in the age of the Brazilian butt lift,
the thick, curvy, hourglass or pear shaped woman, and you know,
I was kind of a spindly, skinny, little athletic girl
and I wasn't quite developed yet, and it was like,
if that's what a woman is supposed to look like,
(16:35):
then I must look like a boy. And maybe I
would be happier if I were a boy. And that
leads into my discovery of the transgender community through these
same platforms where all of a sudden, people were being celebrated.
Speaker 3 (16:52):
For the choices that they were making.
Speaker 4 (16:53):
They're being celebrated and affirmed in their negative feelings around
their body, and they seem to be finding the answer
in changing themselves and changing their bodies. And I thought,
maybe that's what it is for me too. Maybe the
reason why I'm not pretty and why I don't feel pretty,
(17:16):
and why I don't feel like I'm ever going to
match up to other women's because I never was meant
to be a woman in the first place, and this
led me down the path of medical transition eventually, which
as when you're a person who has body dysmorphia, which
(17:38):
I had undiagnosed body dysmorphia for years, in large part
do these images that I was seeing on social media.
You want to feel like you have some control over
your body in some way. For some people this leads
to self harm like cutting or other forms of meutilating themselves,
(18:00):
which I was also doing. And the tradition, the medical
parts of it, and especially the mastectomy, were essentially in
a very advanced way of doing that for me, but
this time it was being sponsored by my doctors.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
And that's the sad thing is, you know, the so
called experts who do know better are pushing young people
into making decisions that could alter the rest of their lives.
How hard is it to de transition? I imagine for
some people, you know, they might not be able to.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
I don't think it's ever easy.
Speaker 4 (18:41):
I don't think I've met a single the tranitioned individual
who didn't find it to be one of the most
difficult parts of their lives, especially if they went on
the medical pathway like I did.
Speaker 3 (18:56):
For me.
Speaker 4 (18:58):
I mean, the beginning of my detrention was really rock
bottom for me. I basically the foundation of my entire
adolescence to that point. I just crumbled when I realized
that all of this was a mistake and that nothing
was really achieved. In fact, I was losing so much
(19:18):
of my life to a medical ideology, and I was
losing I lost support of my doctors that didn't have
any guidance on how to detrench medically or even with
the complications that I was having with these treatments anymore.
And especially just going off to Stowstone, I felt like
(19:39):
I looked so ugly. I was not a healthy looking individual,
and I knew that people at school especially judged me
for it. I lost my friends from the transgender community
now that I no longer considered myself to be one
of them. I was a trader of them, and a
lot of them would just silently distance themselves from me.
At best, or at worse, they would go out of
(20:01):
their way to harass me and beat me down and
tell me that try to compel me to retrandition, or
tell me that I was harming the transgender community just
for talking about the grief that I was experiencing, and
I was just going through my senior year of high
school completely alone, with like no real companionship or really
(20:23):
any any guidance. But I eventually found that there is
an entire community of people online who were just like me,
who had been through this exact same process all the
way through, and I'm really.
Speaker 3 (20:37):
Grateful for them.
Speaker 4 (20:38):
I'm really grateful for the other d transitioners who I
met early on, because they were some of the people
who supported me the most in this most difficult part
of my life.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
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Speaker 2 (21:54):
You know. I think one thing that is really sad is.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
You know, some in the media and uh, you know,
adults on the left and in other areas ignore the
complications that can stem from these surgeries as well. And
there are a lot of complications, you know, speak a
little bit about that about you know, about the complications
that can arise with some of these surgeries as well.
Speaker 4 (22:22):
Yeah, they really do downplay a lot of the physical
complications that come from these treatments. And especially with the
puberty blockers, right, they claim, oh, they're completely reversed, they're
completely reversible. You don't have to worry about the effects
of them when you use them.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
For children.
Speaker 4 (22:38):
Or for for anybody really, but from all three of
the main physical treatments I had. I have complications from
every single one of them, and that includes the puberty blockers.
I didn't really well while I was While I was
on the blockers, they basically created an artificial state of
(22:58):
menopause for me. And I was starting them at thirteen
years old. I was in eighth grade and I was
experiencing plot flashes. I was experiencing these uncomfortable, itchy and
sweaty sensations.
Speaker 3 (23:10):
I was very emotionally numb while I was on it.
Speaker 4 (23:13):
It was not a pleasant experience and nothing that a
thirteen year old girl, a healthy thirteen year old girl,
should ever go through. And years later, I have started
to have some joint and nerve issues. Have I get
shooting pains up my joints, up my limbs, up my spine,
(23:35):
and from the pestosterone.
Speaker 3 (23:37):
I mean, most of the complications.
Speaker 4 (23:39):
That I started experiencing from the testosterone were not even
listed on my medical forms. I started having issues well
not only with my sexual function, but I also get tellograene.
I also have issues with my with my urinary traps.
(24:00):
I start having about like a year undertaking this and
of course from the surgery. Like I'm never going to
be able to breastfeed my children, if I can even
have viable pregnancy. I don't know if I'm fertile, but
there is in my breast in my chest. I've lost function,
(24:23):
I've lost a rogenous sensation, I've lost my ability to nurse.
And I've had people tell me like, oh, well, it's
not a big deal, right, like you can just you
can just get a reconstruction, and you can not only
you can have you can have fake breast now and
(24:45):
you can just follow feed your children. But they really
underestimate just how painful it is not even have a
chance at knowing what it's like to feed your children
with what God gave you. This is something that to
this day I still greatly struggle with, and I.
Speaker 3 (25:07):
Mean with the with the with the with the mistectomies.
Speaker 4 (25:12):
That they perform on trends identified female patients, they're never
done in such a way that they have reconstruction in mind. Actually,
so for a lot of patients who had mistectomies as
part of a of a sex change, they're not even
viable for reconstruction. They can't have one because they don't
(25:35):
have enough tissue because they already have complications in the
area that unfortunately, implants will make worse. And it's like
you're never getting a real thing that is never going
to come back.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
I'm so mad at earth society for failing so many children.
It just it really angers me. But I'm so thankful
it feels like the tides are turning. You know, a
lot of the conversation has been about, you know, miners transitioning.
I guess what are your thoughts on adults transitioning.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
In society?
Speaker 3 (26:06):
I mean, with children, it's very obviously wrong.
Speaker 4 (26:12):
Because we are interfering with their natural, healthy, beautiful development
and telling them that they are wrong the way that
they were made, the way that they were that God
beautifully made them in the woman with their mother. But
a lot of people downplay just how horrific these treatments
are when it comes to adults. They say, oh, well,
(26:35):
when you're past the age of eighteen, you have full
agency over yourself. You can do whatever you want. But
I believe I feel like for any doctor to do
this to anybody, for this to happen to anyone, regardless
of how old they are, whether they're a child or
an adults, it's a tragedy that they've been led down
(26:56):
this path, that they've been filled so badly in their
lives by their medical practitioners and buy the people around
them that they feel like they have to change their
bodies in order to feel beautiful and the whole and healthy,
because this is something that is not based in reality.
And these drugs don't care what your age is. They're
(27:19):
going to destroy your body. They're going to shorten your
lifespan regardless, and I think that everybody deserves better than this.
That being said, it's a lot more difficult to create
any legislatives or other protections for adults, and we can't
stop every adult from making poor decisions around themselves. But
(27:41):
we can make changes in the culture, and we can
make an influence. We can make We can be a
positive influence in the lives of people, of the people
around us, and.
Speaker 3 (27:54):
The lives of.
Speaker 4 (27:56):
Our friends or family who might be experiencing these feelings.
I think we all have the responsibility to step in
when we see a problem, and it does feel.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
Like the momentum is on our side with us. I mean,
we just saw that. Well one, we have the Supreme
Court case that we discussed at the beginning of the interview,
and then we've got we had an election where a
lot of this stuff became an issue in a presidential ad,
and you know, men and women's sports came up and
Senate ads across the country as well. We know that
polling shows that the majority of Americans are on the
side of common sense. Now that Trump is one, I
(28:30):
guess what would you like to see his administration do.
What would you like to see President elect Trump do
to protect minors in this country.
Speaker 4 (28:41):
I want to see change being made on the federal level,
because now we've been struggling against this for years now
on the state level, but that is not enough, especially
with the Supreme Court case. I want to see the
Tennessee law being upheld as constitutional so that they can
make way for other states to not only implement these laws,
(29:06):
but also for them to be upheld in court.
Speaker 3 (29:10):
Banning these treatments is not enough.
Speaker 4 (29:12):
We need to make it so that people who have
been already harmed by the system, the transitioners, and perhaps
people have who are just who still are transidentified but
have been damaged by these treatments to seek justice themselves,
to get the help and the care that they that
they need after the fact.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
And he has promised to stop the chemical, physical, and
emotional mutilation of our youth. So I have confidence that
he will do that and his administration will take those steps.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
You know.
Speaker 4 (29:46):
I would love to help the administration however, I however
I can.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Well, and I hope they bring you in in for that,
because you've been a fierce advocate for protecting other children
in this country and for you know, just bring awareness
and attention to all of this. Before we go, I imagine,
it's just been such a good feeling to sort of,
you know, see all these wins and momentum coming to
(30:12):
your side.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
Is there anything else you'd like to leave us with
before we go?
Speaker 4 (30:16):
I mean, it's just been an absolutely incredible year. It's
been incredible past three years being a part of this,
being able to be a part of this movement and
seeing all this progress that we've made so quickly in
such short time. And I'm really looking forward to what
this next year has in store, And especially with Trump's
reinauguration and him coming back into presidency.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
It seems like America is slowly moving toward the side
of common sense again. So I'm praying that sanity continues
to be restored over these next four years, but absolutely
in a large part with people like you who are
fighting for sanity and common sense. Especially and how you're
in early twenties. How old are you now for twenty Yeah,
(31:03):
you're twenty. You're seeing her baby. I'm thirty nine, forty,
So you guys look at you like a little sister.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
You're like a.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
Very young You're a baby to me, you know, I'm
almost forty. But Chloe, I appreciate your time and just
really admire you and respect your bravery and appreciate what
you do.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
I know it's not easy, but you're making a big difference.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
It means a lot. That was Chloe Cole. Appreciate her time.
She's such a sweetheart. Really proud of her. Thank you
guys for listening at home every Monday and Thursday, but
you can listen throughout the week. I also want to
think John Castor and my producer for putting the show together.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
Until next time,
We've had Chloe Cole on the show before. She was
just a kid when she wanted to transition, when she
started to feel like she was questioning who she was,
who she's supposed to be, feeling like she's in the
wrong body, so she took steps to do that. She
took puberty blockers. The adults around her told her that
this was the right thing to do. She got a
(00:22):
double misectomy at fifteen years old and then deeply regretted
it just a couple of years later. We've interviewed her
before in her compelling story.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
She told us about that not too long ago.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
But I want to have her on the show again
because since that conversation a lot's changed in the country.
We have an incoming president elect Donald Trump. We have
where the issues surrounding transgender issues really played out this
past election cycle. I mean, we all remember that ad
for the Trump campaign of Kamala Harris is for they them,
(00:56):
I'm for you. Or we looked at Senate races in
the country where ads about men trying to play in
women's sports also aired.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
And then we have this case before the.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Supreme Court, which we discussed recently on the podcast. Over
Tennessee's ban on surgeries for minors, which could have much
broader these sweeping implications for a lot of other legal
fights over transgender or over issues like bathroom access and
participation in school sports as well.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
A lot going on.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
A lot's happened since that last conversation with her, so
I want to have her on the show again. We're
going to reiterate talk about her story again, just to
remind everyone because it's so important, talk about how it's
been for her. She was in DC for the Supreme
Court oral arguments that took place over Tennessee's ban, So
what's that been like for her to see these wins,
(01:45):
to see momentum moving on her side? How hard has
it been for her as a de transitioner to be
out in the fight at She's only twenty years old,
so what's that process been like for her? How hard
is that for her? We'll also talk about now that
Donald Trump has won, now that we have this incoming
Trump administration, what does she hope the Trump administration does
and Donald Trump does to stop the mutilation of children
(02:09):
in our country. I promise you this is a conversation
worth listening to. She's so brave at such a young age,
a compelling story that you need to hear. So please
please stay tuned for Chloe Cole. Chloe Cole, it's so
great to.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Have you on the show.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
First of all, it's been a while since we've caught up,
so you know, how are you doing?
Speaker 3 (02:32):
Doing pretty good?
Speaker 4 (02:33):
You know, I just got back from this crazy DC
trip and I've been home for a few days.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
I've been with my family.
Speaker 4 (02:39):
It's been it's been really nice and relaxing, especially after
this busy whirlwind of a year.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
But they're all they're all.
Speaker 4 (02:45):
The the busy, the busyness, the crazy moments, It's all
been worth it.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
I just want to tell you, like, I'm so proudy
we've not actually like met in person, but you know,
it's hard to be brave. Someday, I yeah, and I
can't wait. I can't wait to meet. But it's hard
to be brave in today's society. And like, you're much
younger than me, and I don't know if I would
have the guts to fight the battles that you've been
fighting at your age, and so it takes a lot
of bravery to be out there, and especially with all
(03:13):
the incoming and the arrows that you've taken, and so
I think you're really a big, big reason why a
lot of these states have taken action to ban surgeries
for minors. And so I just want to tell you, like,
I'm really proud of you because it's not easy. I'm
sure it's been a battle and you've probably have second
guess why you decided to put yourself out there on
(03:34):
all this, But you should be really proud of yourself
because it's not easy to be brave and you are.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
Well that means a lot. Thank you so much. Yeah,
I mean, it's it's really not easy all the.
Speaker 4 (03:46):
Time for so many different reasons. I mean, people say
a lot of horrible stuff to me and like, but
doing what I do doesn't come without the threat stuff
people make to me, and it can it can really
wear down on me, especially like when I don't have
all the time in the world with my family or
(04:07):
at home or just being in one place. But it's
also a really beautiful experience to being able to advocate
for this cause, something that I never really that I
never thought I would be doing in a million years
at the beginning of this, and just meeting.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
All these wonderful people along the way.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
You know, like not a lot of people can actively
say that, you know, they're saving lives, but you know
that's what you're doing with your advocacy to protect children
from going through what you went through.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
I mean, how cool was that to be at.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
The Supreme Court where they were having these oral arguments
over Tennessee's ban on surgery for transgender minors. You know,
how how was that to be there and to sort
of see all the hard thought battles that you've been through,
sort of to realize and the fact that you know
(05:04):
very well could be a huge win for protecting minors
across the country from having to go through what you
went through.
Speaker 4 (05:11):
Well in the way, it was very It was kind
of surreal just being there, and.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
It gave me.
Speaker 4 (05:20):
I had this moment where I was reflecting on the
fact that I'm a part of this massive movement and
I'm surrounded by all these people who I love and
I've fought, I've fought alongside, and all of our work
just within the past three years has led to this point.
I mean, it's I really can't think of any other
(05:40):
political movements in US history that has been nearly as
successful or as fast as this has been.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
And I think what's funny about life sometimes is you know,
when you take stands like this, sometimes you lose, you know,
some of the friends that you had, but then you
make new ones as well, and you form these new
relationships and you sort of alluded to that before or
have you found friends who have also be transitioned and
sort of found like camaraderie in that of you know,
(06:08):
finding like minded people who have sort of been through
this process and know what it's like.
Speaker 4 (06:14):
Yeah, I mean I have definitely lost friends along along
the way, from from from from school, friends from the
transgender community. But I've also made a lot more and
I've learned who the real friends and my real allies
really are. Not many of those people are other transitionend
(06:34):
individuals who have had the pleasure of meeting and some
of them are publicly facing, and a lot of them
have chosen not to for personal reasons. And either way,
like I really, I just really love these people and
it's really helped my healing a lot to be with
other men, other women who know what it's like to
(06:57):
go through this and come out of it.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
We've got to take a quick commercial break more with
Chloe on the other side. We did an interview you know,
a while ago for those who have not been able
to listen to that, who are unfamiliar. So you were
twelve years old when you began transitioning. Kind of take
the audience through on that journey and when you realize that,
(07:20):
you know what, this isn't right, this isn't how I
want to be living my life, you know, kind of
take us through that journey for those who are unfamiliar.
Speaker 4 (07:28):
So during my childhood, in the days before I underwent
a gender trendition, I was growing up as kind of
a stereotypical tomboy.
Speaker 3 (07:41):
In a lot of ways I had.
Speaker 4 (07:44):
I'm the youngest of five kids, and I've got two
older brothers and two older sisters, and so I had
a bit of influence from both sexes. But I found
that I just connected more to the male role models
around me and and I at first I took pride
in this, you know, but it felt like another started
(08:06):
to feel, especially as I went into middle school, another
thing that just set me apart from my peers. And
from a very very young age, I always felt like
there was something that was just different about me.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
I didn't always get along with other kids.
Speaker 4 (08:18):
I didn't always understand how other kids socialized or worked,
and I found that to be very difficult. And over
the years, it was like I just kept wondering, like,
what is it that makes me difference? Is there something
wrong with me? And I really started to fixate on myself.
Speaker 3 (08:38):
And then the change and.
Speaker 4 (08:39):
Paberty came for me pretty early. I was about nine
when my breasts started to come in. With that came
a lot of unwanted sexual attention for me that unfortunately
eventually materialized into a few assaults, and I just felt
so uncomfortable throughout a lot of my formative years with
my femininity. I stumbled upon the transiender community online when
(09:02):
I was about twelve years old, and it was like
I finally found this way that I could explain myself
why I felt different and perhaps a fix for my
feelings of distress around my sex and around being female
and around my body.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
So I started calling myself a boy.
Speaker 4 (09:19):
I started calling myself by a boy name, and then
eventually I told my mom and dad about it, and
they're very shocked to hear this from me. I mean,
I don't really think that any parent expects to hear
their daughter coming up to them saying like, I don't
want to be your daughter anywhere. I want to be
your son. I'm a boy now and I want you
to call me that. My mom and dad correctly saw
this as an issue of my mental health, so they
(09:43):
started having me see a therapist in hopes that we
would be getting help, that they would be guided in
raising me through these feelings and that I would just
be allowed to maybe experiment with my expression, but just
grow up and not have any intervention. But unfortunately they're
(10:06):
completely wrong in this. My mom and dad were completely
wrong in this assumption that the doctors would handle this
just fine.
Speaker 3 (10:14):
They were goaded.
Speaker 4 (10:16):
The doctors were goading my mom and dad into letting
me go down the medical past. They told them there
is no other option, like this is life or death
for your child. If you don't allow her to medically
transition or take the take the distosterone, or take the
beauty blockers, or get surgery down the line, you're risking
your daughter's life. She could eventually commit suicide if you
(10:38):
say no. And it's really that this is a common
tactic that they use to leverage to get leverage over
the parents to go them and doing something that they
wouldn't usually do because they're in fear of their child's life.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
And no parent wants to be in that position, and.
Speaker 4 (10:56):
I really do I don't blame my mom and dad
for saying yes treatment for that reason, because they were
really back into a corner and told.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
That they could lose me.
Speaker 4 (11:05):
So I was thirteen years old, I wasn't even finished
with middle school yet when I began the first few
medical interventions and it began with lupron, which is a
drug that previously has been used to caste shape, to
chemically cash straight sex offenders, and in late stage cancer patients.
And this is being given to me as a perfectly
healthy child who was going through a normal puberty. And
(11:28):
then they put me on weekly injections of testosterone very
shortly after that, and at fifteen years old, the doctors
used that same lie of suicide to convince my mom
and dad into letting me have surgery, and I underwent
a radical double mastectomy to get rid of my healthy
breasts and fun. The interesting thing is that it was
(11:52):
a surgery. It was the postop period where I realized
just how drastic, just how much of it told this
was taking on my body. And I was sixteen when
I had this epiphany that I wanted to have children
one day, that I wanted to become a mother and.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
A wife, and.
Speaker 4 (12:13):
This lifestyle, this treatment that I was put on, was
actually infringing upon my childhood innocence as well as taking
away potentially these major parts of my adulthood, these things
I didn't know that I valued until that point, because
I still very much was a child. And I made
the decision to be trendition because it just hit me
(12:37):
how much I could be losing, and also the fact
that none of these treatments were actually going to turn
me to young men. But I was beautiful just the
way that I was, and I didn't have to change myself.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
And I've since been speaking.
Speaker 4 (12:51):
Out about this experience, about this experience that I went through,
that my mom and dad, my fa family went through
with me, and the way the abuses of the medical
system against us, and advocating for the rights to parents
and of course the safety and health of children, because
(13:13):
I don't believe that this ever is appropriate for children.
I feel I think that children deserve better than to
be given a lie about this fundamental part of who
they are.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
And hearing what you say what you just said, you know,
it really stood out to me when you said, you know,
you realize I'm beautiful just the way I am. And
I feel like that's something you know, even like when
I go back to when I was in middle school,
and you know, that's something that we all struggle with, right,
It's just a human struggle.
Speaker 3 (13:39):
When you're young, and especially young lemon.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Yes, but you know, I also didn't have to deal
with Instagram and social media and and TikTok and right,
and so you didn't have all these like images and
society sort of being shoved down your throat in the
way that you had to or you know, middle school
or and high schoolers now have to do. I mean,
how I guess how hard is that to grow up
(14:05):
in sort of like this, this social media world where
I mean it puts us more of those doubts in
your mind about you know, and by the way, I'm
supp you know, like I can't imagine how hard. So, like,
how about social media's influence on all of that as well?
Speaker 4 (14:18):
Yeah, for me, social media was a huge part of
that because I mean, most women across pretty much every
generation while growing up, especially in the adolescent period of
their life, as issues with their body image. They're uncomfortable
with all the changes that is happening from going through puberty.
(14:44):
They feel like they're too grown up. They feel like
they're not grown up enough in their body, they feel
like they're not developed enough, or they feel like their
body brings them too much tension. I definitely had those
feelings growing up. But the difference is that the women
in the JED generations that came before mine, they didn't
have social media at a young age. They weren't exposed
(15:08):
to all of these hyper sexualized all these hyper edited
images really almost currica caricatures of what FEMININDI and womanhood
really is. I started having I got my first phone
when I was about eleven years old, and I went
(15:32):
straight to social media right because that's what everybody else
my age was using. And one of the first platforms
that I used was Instagram.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
Because Instagram is so image oriented.
Speaker 4 (15:46):
It it makes way for a lot of these models
and all these women who've had work done or do
photoshop on their photos or just curate them in some
way to beautify themselves as best as possible. And I
felt like I couldn't match up. I felt like, well,
(16:07):
this is what FEMININDI really looks like. How am I
ever going to match up?
Speaker 3 (16:12):
Like? How am I ever going to be a good woman?
Speaker 4 (16:15):
I grew up in the age of the Brazilian butt lift,
the thick, curvy, hourglass or pear shaped woman, and you know,
I was kind of a spindly, skinny, little athletic girl
and I wasn't quite developed yet, and it was like,
if that's what a woman is supposed to look like,
(16:35):
then I must look like a boy. And maybe I
would be happier if I were a boy. And that
leads into my discovery of the transgender community through these
same platforms where all of a sudden, people were being celebrated.
Speaker 3 (16:52):
For the choices that they were making.
Speaker 4 (16:53):
They're being celebrated and affirmed in their negative feelings around
their body, and they seem to be finding the answer
in changing themselves and changing their bodies. And I thought,
maybe that's what it is for me too. Maybe the
reason why I'm not pretty and why I don't feel pretty,
(17:16):
and why I don't feel like I'm ever going to
match up to other women's because I never was meant
to be a woman in the first place, and this
led me down the path of medical transition eventually, which
as when you're a person who has body dysmorphia, which
(17:38):
I had undiagnosed body dysmorphia for years, in large part
do these images that I was seeing on social media.
You want to feel like you have some control over
your body in some way. For some people this leads
to self harm like cutting or other forms of meutilating themselves,
(18:00):
which I was also doing. And the tradition, the medical
parts of it, and especially the mastectomy, were essentially in
a very advanced way of doing that for me, but
this time it was being sponsored by my doctors.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
And that's the sad thing is, you know, the so
called experts who do know better are pushing young people
into making decisions that could alter the rest of their lives.
How hard is it to de transition? I imagine for
some people, you know, they might not be able to.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
I don't think it's ever easy.
Speaker 4 (18:41):
I don't think I've met a single the tranitioned individual
who didn't find it to be one of the most
difficult parts of their lives, especially if they went on
the medical pathway like I did.
Speaker 3 (18:56):
For me.
Speaker 4 (18:58):
I mean, the beginning of my detrention was really rock
bottom for me. I basically the foundation of my entire
adolescence to that point. I just crumbled when I realized
that all of this was a mistake and that nothing
was really achieved. In fact, I was losing so much
(19:18):
of my life to a medical ideology, and I was
losing I lost support of my doctors that didn't have
any guidance on how to detrench medically or even with
the complications that I was having with these treatments anymore.
And especially just going off to Stowstone, I felt like
(19:39):
I looked so ugly. I was not a healthy looking individual,
and I knew that people at school especially judged me
for it. I lost my friends from the transgender community
now that I no longer considered myself to be one
of them. I was a trader of them, and a
lot of them would just silently distance themselves from me.
At best, or at worse, they would go out of
(20:01):
their way to harass me and beat me down and
tell me that try to compel me to retrandition, or
tell me that I was harming the transgender community just
for talking about the grief that I was experiencing, and
I was just going through my senior year of high
school completely alone, with like no real companionship or really
(20:23):
any any guidance. But I eventually found that there is
an entire community of people online who were just like me,
who had been through this exact same process all the
way through, and I'm really.
Speaker 3 (20:37):
Grateful for them.
Speaker 4 (20:38):
I'm really grateful for the other d transitioners who I
met early on, because they were some of the people
who supported me the most in this most difficult part
of my life.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
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Speaker 2 (21:54):
You know. I think one thing that is really sad is.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
You know, some in the media and uh, you know,
adults on the left and in other areas ignore the
complications that can stem from these surgeries as well. And
there are a lot of complications, you know, speak a
little bit about that about you know, about the complications
that can arise with some of these surgeries as well.
Speaker 4 (22:22):
Yeah, they really do downplay a lot of the physical
complications that come from these treatments. And especially with the
puberty blockers, right, they claim, oh, they're completely reversed, they're
completely reversible. You don't have to worry about the effects
of them when you use them.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
For children.
Speaker 4 (22:38):
Or for for anybody really, but from all three of
the main physical treatments I had. I have complications from
every single one of them, and that includes the puberty blockers.
I didn't really well while I was While I was
on the blockers, they basically created an artificial state of
(22:58):
menopause for me. And I was starting them at thirteen
years old. I was in eighth grade and I was
experiencing plot flashes. I was experiencing these uncomfortable, itchy and
sweaty sensations.
Speaker 3 (23:10):
I was very emotionally numb while I was on it.
Speaker 4 (23:13):
It was not a pleasant experience and nothing that a
thirteen year old girl, a healthy thirteen year old girl,
should ever go through. And years later, I have started
to have some joint and nerve issues. Have I get
shooting pains up my joints, up my limbs, up my spine,
(23:35):
and from the pestosterone.
Speaker 3 (23:37):
I mean, most of the complications.
Speaker 4 (23:39):
That I started experiencing from the testosterone were not even
listed on my medical forms. I started having issues well
not only with my sexual function, but I also get tellograene.
I also have issues with my with my urinary traps.
(24:00):
I start having about like a year undertaking this and
of course from the surgery. Like I'm never going to
be able to breastfeed my children, if I can even
have viable pregnancy. I don't know if I'm fertile, but
there is in my breast in my chest. I've lost function,
(24:23):
I've lost a rogenous sensation, I've lost my ability to nurse.
And I've had people tell me like, oh, well, it's
not a big deal, right, like you can just you
can just get a reconstruction, and you can not only
you can have you can have fake breast now and
(24:45):
you can just follow feed your children. But they really
underestimate just how painful it is not even have a
chance at knowing what it's like to feed your children
with what God gave you. This is something that to
this day I still greatly struggle with, and I.
Speaker 3 (25:07):
Mean with the with the with the with the mistectomies.
Speaker 4 (25:12):
That they perform on trends identified female patients, they're never
done in such a way that they have reconstruction in mind. Actually,
so for a lot of patients who had mistectomies as
part of a of a sex change, they're not even
viable for reconstruction. They can't have one because they don't
(25:35):
have enough tissue because they already have complications in the
area that unfortunately, implants will make worse. And it's like
you're never getting a real thing that is never going
to come back.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
I'm so mad at earth society for failing so many children.
It just it really angers me. But I'm so thankful
it feels like the tides are turning. You know, a
lot of the conversation has been about, you know, miners transitioning.
I guess what are your thoughts on adults transitioning.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
In society?
Speaker 3 (26:06):
I mean, with children, it's very obviously wrong.
Speaker 4 (26:12):
Because we are interfering with their natural, healthy, beautiful development
and telling them that they are wrong the way that
they were made, the way that they were that God
beautifully made them in the woman with their mother. But
a lot of people downplay just how horrific these treatments
are when it comes to adults. They say, oh, well,
(26:35):
when you're past the age of eighteen, you have full
agency over yourself. You can do whatever you want. But
I believe I feel like for any doctor to do
this to anybody, for this to happen to anyone, regardless
of how old they are, whether they're a child or
an adults, it's a tragedy that they've been led down
(26:56):
this path, that they've been filled so badly in their
lives by their medical practitioners and buy the people around
them that they feel like they have to change their
bodies in order to feel beautiful and the whole and healthy,
because this is something that is not based in reality.
And these drugs don't care what your age is. They're
(27:19):
going to destroy your body. They're going to shorten your
lifespan regardless, and I think that everybody deserves better than this.
That being said, it's a lot more difficult to create
any legislatives or other protections for adults, and we can't
stop every adult from making poor decisions around themselves. But
(27:41):
we can make changes in the culture, and we can
make an influence. We can make We can be a
positive influence in the lives of people, of the people
around us, and.
Speaker 3 (27:54):
The lives of.
Speaker 4 (27:56):
Our friends or family who might be experiencing these feelings.
I think we all have the responsibility to step in
when we see a problem, and it does feel.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
Like the momentum is on our side with us. I mean,
we just saw that. Well one, we have the Supreme
Court case that we discussed at the beginning of the interview,
and then we've got we had an election where a
lot of this stuff became an issue in a presidential ad,
and you know, men and women's sports came up and
Senate ads across the country as well. We know that
polling shows that the majority of Americans are on the
side of common sense. Now that Trump is one, I
(28:30):
guess what would you like to see his administration do.
What would you like to see President elect Trump do
to protect minors in this country.
Speaker 4 (28:41):
I want to see change being made on the federal level,
because now we've been struggling against this for years now
on the state level, but that is not enough, especially
with the Supreme Court case. I want to see the
Tennessee law being upheld as constitutional so that they can
make way for other states to not only implement these laws,
(29:06):
but also for them to be upheld in court.
Speaker 3 (29:10):
Banning these treatments is not enough.
Speaker 4 (29:12):
We need to make it so that people who have
been already harmed by the system, the transitioners, and perhaps
people have who are just who still are transidentified but
have been damaged by these treatments to seek justice themselves,
to get the help and the care that they that
they need after the fact.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
And he has promised to stop the chemical, physical, and
emotional mutilation of our youth. So I have confidence that
he will do that and his administration will take those steps.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
You know.
Speaker 4 (29:46):
I would love to help the administration however, I however
I can.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Well, and I hope they bring you in in for that,
because you've been a fierce advocate for protecting other children
in this country and for you know, just bring awareness
and attention to all of this. Before we go, I imagine,
it's just been such a good feeling to sort of,
you know, see all these wins and momentum coming to
(30:12):
your side.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
Is there anything else you'd like to leave us with
before we go?
Speaker 4 (30:16):
I mean, it's just been an absolutely incredible year. It's
been incredible past three years being a part of this,
being able to be a part of this movement and
seeing all this progress that we've made so quickly in
such short time. And I'm really looking forward to what
this next year has in store, And especially with Trump's
reinauguration and him coming back into presidency.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
It seems like America is slowly moving toward the side
of common sense again. So I'm praying that sanity continues
to be restored over these next four years, but absolutely
in a large part with people like you who are
fighting for sanity and common sense. Especially and how you're
in early twenties. How old are you now for twenty Yeah,
(31:03):
you're twenty. You're seeing her baby. I'm thirty nine, forty,
So you guys look at you like a little sister.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
You're like a.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
Very young You're a baby to me, you know, I'm
almost forty. But Chloe, I appreciate your time and just
really admire you and respect your bravery and appreciate what
you do.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
I know it's not easy, but you're making a big difference.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
It means a lot. That was Chloe Cole. Appreciate her time.
She's such a sweetheart. Really proud of her. Thank you
guys for listening at home every Monday and Thursday, but
you can listen throughout the week. I also want to
think John Castor and my producer for putting the show together.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
Until next time,
Host
Lisa Boothe
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