April 11, 2025 • 40 mins
In this episode, Tudor interviews Jonathan Allen about his book 'Fight Inside the Wildest Battle for the White House,' which provides an in-depth look at the 2024 election, focusing on the dynamics within the Democratic Party, particularly around Joe Biden and Kamala Harris. The discussion reveals the behind-the-scenes management of candidates, the impact of Biden's cognitive decline, the fallout from debates, and the complexities of identity politics in the selection of a vice presidential candidate. Allen shares insights into the reactions of Democratic leaders and the challenges they faced during the election cycle. The Tudor Dixon Podcast is part of the Clay Travis & Buck Sexton Podcast Network. For more visit TudorDixonPodcast.com
Buy Jon Allen's Book - Fight: Inside the Wildest Battle for the White House HERE
#2024election #Biden #KamalaHarris #DemocraticParty #politicalinsights #campaignmanagement #identitypolitics #electionanalysis #behindthescenes #politicalreporting
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Well, welcome to the Tutor Dixon Podcast. This one should
be very interesting because I think all through the twenty
twenty four election, we were all saying, gosh, I cannot
wait until like twenty years from now there's a book
on this and we know exactly what happened behind the scenes.
But we didn't have to wait for twenty years because
Jonathan Allen wrote it for us.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
So today we get to talk to him.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
He's the NBC News senior National politics reporter and he
teamed up with the Hills Amy Parns to write this book.
It's called Fight Inside the Wildest Battle for the White House. Jonathan,
thank you for joining.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
Me, my pleasure. I'm excited to talk to an experienced campaigner.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Well, I actually was reading through this and I'm like,
this is the behind the scenes that people don't know
and the amount of information the candidate doesn't know. Like
you kind of highlight how much they keep from the candidate,
which as a former candidate, it's like.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Oh, it makes you so mad.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
You know, you read it, You're like, this is so
embarrassing that you are kind of kept in this cloud
of I don't know, I guess you're kept at a
cloud of joy to keep you happy.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
And it makes sense.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
I mean, I think it is. It's a joy bubble.
The idea is to make the candidate comfortable and for
the staff to make as many decisions as possible without
the candidate and around the candidate. I mean, it's really
like managing somebody, you know, managing up yes campayn manager
and others. And I think that I think that there
(01:33):
are certain politicians, and certainly those who have become more experienced,
who sometimes say to themselves, you know what, it is
better for me to have a more hands on role
in managing my own campaign because I now understand what
it is that they're keeping from me and what it is.
I'm not being told what it is. I should be
being told what it is that you know, we should
be doing that we're not doing. And I think, actually,
(01:55):
look to your point, and I'm glad you brought it up.
No one has before. You really get a sense of
how much a candidate is in a cocoon, and depending
on the candidate, some are more so and some less so.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Well, and this was such an interesting race because I
think a lot of people were saying for a long time, well,
I know a lot of people on the right side
were saying Joe Biden's off, and I think there was
this ability to kind of play it off as he's
not because that's just the attack from the right, and
maybe even at the beginning it was pushed a little
bit more than he was.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
But if you look at the.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Recordings of him in twenty nineteen to twenty three to
twenty four, there's a striking difference and you start to
highlight that behind the scenes, there's a bit of a
crack in the facade.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
Yeah. Absolutely, And you know the thing is, I think
even in twenty twenty when he ran, it was clear
he'd lost something off his basketball. For those of us
who covered him in Congress or during the vice presidency,
this was a guy that was a chatterbox. You couldn't
get him to shut up, you know, who would talk
to reporters about anything. And then suddenly you know he's
being hidden, you know, effectively in twenty twenty and a pandemic.
(03:06):
You know, because of the pandemic, there were some reasons,
you know, you were going to have big events with
big crowds, But at the same time, I think his
team used that as an excuse to not talk to
the press much, and so you could see that there
was some slippage there, but it wasn't wasn't necessarily an acuity.
Then maybe a little bit. It's harder to tell. I'm
not a doctor, but he wasn't the same guy in
(03:28):
twenty twenty. But there's a progression. People get older, and
if they are suffering from a loss of acuity, that
gets more acute over time.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
And we didn't see him, so that made us even
more skeptical. You know, even once he becomes president, he
doesn't hold press conferences, he doesn't need questions, and then
there was a weird he starts to take questions, but
he's calling out specific reporters, which just felt.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
Odd, certainly, and for a guy who spent his entire
career having great relationships with reporters and knowing them by
name and asking about their kids. You know, there was
just a noticeable difference. And we you know, we have
episodes in the book or scenes in the book where
different Democrats come to the realization that what Republicans are
(04:15):
saying about Joe Biden is not unfounded and in some
cases more right, because you made the point that Democrats
were able to sort of delude themselves into thinking this
is a Republican talking point. We live in such partisan times.
But for all of those, all the US who watched
Joe Biden on television, whether we were people who've spent
time with him or not, we could tell there was
(04:36):
a problem or we could tell there was a difference.
Erk Swalwell, the congressman from California, goes to meet goes
to a picnic at the White House in twenty twenty three,
in the summer of twenty twenty three. He had run
against Joe Biden in the twenty twenty primary. And he
starts to talk to Biden, and Biden doesn't know who
he is. And Swallow has to kind of que Biden
to know who Swawell is. And Swalwell was like an
(04:57):
impeachment manager against Trump. This is not nobody who most
of Washington doesn't know. I mean, I understand, not everybody
in the country, not everybody who's not watching cable news,
you know, knows Eric Swawell. But he is a well
known guy. Biden doesn't recognize him. Biden's talking to donors
in June of twenty twenty three and just freezes, you know,
sort of the episode has described similar to what we
(05:20):
saw from Senator McConnell a few years ago, where you know,
he would just kind of freeze up, and so folks
who didn't see him all the time but every once
in a while noticed a precipitous decline in his capacity.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
Well, I think that was the swallwall chapter was kind
of interesting because he says, I mean, he clearly thought
that was strange. And you would because if you have
been on the debate stage with someone, you certainly recognize
them when you see them off the debate stage.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
So he definitely thought that that was odd.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
And then he comments later that in the debate, they're
joking about, oh, you're going to jail man because the
debate was so bad.
Speaker 3 (05:59):
Yeah, so that's right. It's Swallwell and Reuben Diego, who's
now a senator from Arizona. They're watching the debate with
their wives and there's a knock at the door, and
of course the debate is going terribly for the Democrats.
There's this knock at the door, and Diego, you know,
looks at Swallowa and he's like, man, it's over, it's up.
You're going to jail. Trump's president, and you better run.
(06:19):
And it turns out it's you know, Uber eats at
the door and the whole time Swallwell's going to the door.
Diego is like keeping up the act. He's like, look, man,
if you need to run, I can find a place
for you to hide here. He's from Arizona. He's like,
I know people in the tribes. It's kind of a
kind of a light moment and at a very dark
time for the Democrat.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
I think that I think that's exactly what it is,
because I think there is this moment.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
I mean, just the way you describe it in the book,
and I encourage people to.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
Read it because it is truly a behind the scenes
and I don't know how you got all of the
behind the scenes, but the knowledge that you have of
Nancy Pelosi sitting alone.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
And it's interesting because I think.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
When politics is really personal to you and when you're
very highly engaged, these are kind of moments you don't
want to be around a bunch of people. I remember
being invited to go to a watch party and you're like,
if I go to the watch party, a everybody's gonna
be talking and I won't hear it.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
And what if it goes horribly wrong, and I.
Speaker 3 (07:17):
Think a Midwestern so a whole like you just you
just wrote a whole book about like the Midwestern frame
of mind, like right.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
There, because we all go and watch it together in talk,
I know.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
You're just quietly thinking to yourself, well, what if all
this goes wrong?
Speaker 2 (07:33):
Yeah, well of course yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
And that was honestly, I'm like, beforehand we had I
remember going to an event beforehand and people were like,
I cannot wait, It's gonna be amazing, and I'm like,
I'm just gonna I want to make sure it's amazing.
I just want to feel like it's gonna be great,
because you didn't know who Joe Biden was at that point.
We didn't know he had had the State of the Union,
(07:57):
and he seemed lucid, and people were like, it's not
like you can just turn it on and turn it
off if you can't be looseid one minute and totally
lose it the next. But in the book you has
say that he had days where he was getting to
the point where he had more foggy days than clear,
clear days, and that is kind of how things go,
which is it's not it's not a book it's not
(08:18):
something to gloat about. And I just want you to
know that when you read it and you're on the
right side of the aisle, you don't read it and
go ha ha ha, we were right.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
You read it and you go, how did this happen?
Speaker 3 (08:29):
It's I mean, it's sad on a human level, right,
I mean, anyone aging, anyone who's having struggle, struggles with
their their acuity. And you know, in the case of
Joe Biden, somebody who you know, spent a spent a
career in h in public service, and has now subjected
himself to the biggest spotlight in the world and has
(08:50):
the worst moment that anyone has seen from him or
anybody else in a presidential debate. Uh, you know, with
that bright spotlight on him. That's sad is that this
was the leader of the free world so clearly bereft
of coherent thought even for a moment. Right, even if
that was the worst moment, I think a large number
(09:11):
of Americans thought to themselves, the president of the United
States cannot have any moments like that.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Yeah, we have no leader.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
I mean, that's how it was frightening. It should have
been frightening. And if you weren't frightened by it, You
know that. I think that's an indication of the degree
to which you're a partisan supporter of Joe Biden. And
that's not to disparage people who are partisan supporters of candidates,
but you'd have to be that to have that level
(09:39):
of delusion and not be concerned by what you saw
in the leader of the free world, the person with
his finger on the nuclear button.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
Well, and people who I would have thought would be like,
you know what, he had a bad night and we're
going to rally around didn't. And it's very The phone
tree that ensues after the debate that you talk you
write about is quite enlightening to have Nancy Pelosi and
everybody suddenly texting, who what are we going to do?
Speaker 2 (10:07):
This? Is it? He's done?
Speaker 1 (10:10):
And I don't think that they fully at that point,
I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, grasp that they're
going to pull him, They're going to put someone else.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
They're kind of free falling like what just happened? What
did we just see?
Speaker 3 (10:21):
I think it's a spectrum, and one of the things
we tried to do with the book is show that
spectrum of reaction. Some people are. You know, the Biden
campaign is like, it's just a bad night, and everybody
else is like, cut the crap, it's not just a
bad night. But they have different levels of how much
worse it was than a bad night. I think Pelosi
immediately realized that this was probably fatal for the Biden campaign.
(10:44):
The question of how to get Biden out and who
would replace him is something that she wrestled with over
the course of the next three and a half weeks,
as the Democratic Party did, but she instantly her instinct,
according to somebody who talked to her at the time,
was she was worried that there would be such a
bum rush to get Biden out. That night, I remember
(11:04):
she's getting text messages and phone calls from donors, from
members of Congress, from other political leaders, and she's realizing
how alarmed they are, and she's like, he's going to
get such a bum rush that we're going to end
up with Kamala Harris and never stop or pause to
think about whether that's a good decision. And so I
think she tried to manage that process as best as
she could, tried to keep her fingerprints off of it
(11:26):
for a while, and at some point it became impossible
for her to keep her fingerprints off of it because
none of the other Democrats would have, you know, basically
had the courage to push Biden out.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
But the weird thing to me is there does seem
to be there's this undertone of it can't be Harris
throughout that period.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
There's a lot of people who are panicked about it,
and then there's kind of the discussion of how Whitmer
had been the choice, the second choice. Now it's interesting
because from Michigan we had been told Whitmer was the
first choice and that her staff had actually started looking
at real estate down there, and then at the last
minute that was kind of like pulled, hey, no, and
(12:05):
that race discussion came intoway. He said it would be
a black woman. It has to be a black woman,
you can't be the candidate. And yet when it comes
down which I think is sort of an interesting identity
politics issue, because when it comes down to we need
a new candidate, it seems like the majority of people
are jumping toward Whitmer, but they get pulled, no, it
(12:29):
has to be Harris.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
Yeah, I don't know if it's the majority of people.
You know, what's fascinating from the Michigan perspective, and Bret,
maybe this isn't surprising. On the night of the debate,
Hillary Skulton from Michigan, the congressman, is in a group
chat with a bunch of Democratic women members of Congress
and she texts Whitmer for President, Like, Biden's like still
(12:52):
in Atlanta, you know, the debate has just gone on,
and she's like, Whitmer for President. And the response and
then somebody else on the chain echoes that, and then
some women from the congressional Black cawk has start pushing back,
and they're not pushing back saying, hey, Joe's our guy.
They're saying, you know, over our dead body is Kamala
Harris going to get skipped over? So to the question
(13:13):
of like, how early were some of the people looking
at this is the end of Joe Biden, It was
certainly long before he dropped out. Yeah. Whitmer was scarred
from that first experience. She really didn't like like the
political infighting that went on. She felt like she had
been depicted poorly along racial lines in the battle with Harris,
(13:37):
the sort of shadow battle to become Joe Biden's vice
presidential pick. And it's something she didn't really invite. You know,
she felt like she walked out of that weaker and
having been accused of things that she wasn't you know,
that she didn't really feel were fair in order to
make her look bad. And we all know politics, I mean,
politicians will use whatever they can for whatever reason.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Yeah, I'm not going to sit a lot of tears
over that, but you know, that's personal.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
She said. But she felt she that it harmed her
to the point that she called Kamala Harris a couple
of days after the debate and said said, I'm not
going to run for president under anything. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
I thought that was interesting, that conversation, and that's.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
Never been reported before first time in our book.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
Yeah, and I was. I was impressed with that. It
was a hey, I'm not even trying. This is not
don't feel like I'm trying to encroach on your lane
right now. I'm not trying to do this. Don't send
your dogs after me.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
Basically, and you know, the Harris people, at least some
people related to her, so I gotta be careful with
my sourcing here. You know, openly admitted that they you know,
openly admitted that they did some political dirty tricks on
Whitmer back in back in the twenty twenty days. You know,
it was not a false perception that Whitmer had that
(14:54):
Kamala Harris's team would do everything they could to undermine
her if they felt like she was a problem. So
she made the call and said, like, you know, basically,
if she's not going to run for president and under
any circumstances, why take the pain of somebody thinking you
are and trying to take you out.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
And eventually she does want to, so she was not
wanting to ruin her reputation by any means. I mean,
I think everybody here kind of has seen the trajectory
of her political career, and she's smart, she knows what
she's doing. She doesn't want that ruin. She wants to
have an opportunity in the future. So I give her
credit as a politician for doing that. She saw the
future and she said I'm not going to let this
(15:28):
wreck it. But still not everybody else in the party
was on board with Harris, and even Obama wasn't really
on board with Harris.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
He wanted an open primary.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
Yeah, that's right. You know, we report in this book
on sort of all the behind the scenes conversations Obama
and Biden, Obama and Pelosi. They had a couple conversations
about what to do about Biden, you know, Biden and Pelosi,
you know, as he's trying to stay in and she's
trying to destabilize him, and Pelosi didn't want Harris. Obama
(15:59):
didn't want Harris. Biden wanted Biden certainly more than Harris,
and did some things over the course of that process
and afterward that were really harmful to Harris. And so
he ends up and he endorses her, but you know,
he obviously didn't want her to be the Democratic nominee.
He wanted to be the Democratic nominee. And the problem
(16:23):
for the Democrats was a lot of them at the
very high level looked at Kamala Harris and said she's
not the best candidate. We can do better than her.
And I'm not sure that a the grassroots voters agreed
with that, because she was the vice president that they've
been supportive of for the last several years. Like it
takes a lot for people to hear, you know, how
(16:45):
great she is for three or four years and then decide, well, no,
I no longer think she's great, but the bigger problem
for them was, and you got to this a little bit,
I think the racial and gender politics of the Democrats
trying to pass over a black woman vice president. That's
not happening in the Democratic Party. Like the writing was
on the wall, there is no world in which that
(17:07):
happens in the party without them sacrificing the next three
or four elections because the fear would be you have
an open war over it, and ultimately, you know, black
voters would be angry about it. Not all black voters
would be angry about it. I don't mean to suggest
a monolith, but the party influencers would be pretty pissed
(17:29):
for a long time.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
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This was sponsored by Preborn. So do you think for
Biden it was just about I want it to be
me or do you think that there was not always?
I mean, we always have been curious about the relationship
(18:59):
between the two two of them because it never felt
like it was warm and cozy. It did always kind
of feel like it was an arranged marriage. Do you
think it was just that he wanted to be the president,
or was he like, I don't think she's even as
good as me.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
I think both. I mean, you know, but I think
what's interesting about all of this is you sort of
get this exposure of which of the political players in
the Democratic Party are putting the interests of the party,
and because partisans believe that their party is good for
the country, the interests of the country above themselves, and
which ones are putting themselves above those things. And we
(19:35):
see that play out in real time in the aftermath
of the debate, and Biden continually puts himself in front
of everything else. And you know, maybe that's you know,
maybe people who become president of the United States are
a that and be good at hiding that they're that,
you know, I mean, I think there's something to that
that you know, perhaps Biden was that way all along,
(19:56):
but better at hiding it than some I don't. You know,
President doesn't even try to hide it. He's like, I'm
out for me, but out for me is good for you,
And so you know, the accept the out for me,
and it's you know, I think that's one of the
reasons people find him authentic is that he's not trying
to cover up you know, his that his he has
a self interest and he will pursue the self interest
and he believes that self interest is in line with
(20:17):
the interests of the public. But traditionally you kind of
try to hide that if you have it. Biden doesn't
hide it. You know, once once the debate happens, his
staff starts, uh starts bashing Kamala Harris to donors and
to politicians, and they they're saying, like, you know, if
you if you keep on pushing on Biden to get out,
(20:40):
you're gonna end up with Harris, and that's going to
be disaster for the party. This is the sitting vice
president of the United States and clearly the most likely
person to take over if he steps aside, and his
team is just like, you know, taking a baseball bat
toward kneecaps.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
That I mean, to be honest, that seems very crazy
because I think as Americans, we've always sort of felt
like the vice president and the president were a team,
and you never you certainly don't want them against each other,
and so that was surprising. But then but then it
does they they all come together. It's Kamala. We talked
about that weird feeling of you you don't you're kept
(21:16):
in the dark ass the candidate. That was also very
shocking to me that she was overwhelmingly surprised that she lost.
But if you're if you take yourself, it's hard because
I lived this the campaign as well, right, So I
feel like I maybe I read that differently, and I
(21:38):
think that you have. She's having these rallies and I'm
watching on TV and I'm like, if I'm her, I
think this too. I've got Beyonce, I've got Oprah. These
rallies are huge. There's so many people coming everywhere I go.
People love me, you know. It's like such a there's
so much energy, it's so hyped. I've got Barack Obama
(22:00):
behind me, the entire party is behind me.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
I'm the person.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
And the polls, the polls on TV, I mean, the
national polls that we're seeing have it very close. The
one like chink in the armor is that you see
Alissa slot can start running ads with Donald Trump, and
then other Senate candidates start running ads with Donald Trump,
and it's like there's this time when here in Michigan
(22:26):
we go, are they not releasing really bad numbers, because
why is Alissa Slotkin putting Trump in her ads?
Speaker 2 (22:35):
This is very weird. She wins, Kamala loses.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
I think the Democrats call that a permission structure, which
is Alyssa slock And saying it's okay to vote for
both Trump and me, knowing, you know, sensing that Trump
is in a better spot in Michigan, and that she's
going to lose more, you know, being stapled to Kamala
Harris than stapled to Donald Trump. And she worried about
that all along. Another thing we report in this book
(22:59):
for the first the day that Donald Trump is shot
in Butler, Pennsylvania, July thirteenth, At the same time, roughly
the same time, Alissa Slockin is at a fundraiser on
Long Island in New York, and Adam Shift, the congressman
from California who is also running for Senate, gets up
and basically says, you know, it's time to get rid
(23:21):
of Biden to a small group of donors. And then
Slacken gets up and she starts basically making the case
that Biden is better for her and for other Democrats
down ballot than Harris. And she's Basically, Biden's not very good.
We could all see he was old. We could all
see that this is a problem. But Kamala Harris is
(23:42):
going to get tied to the woke left, and she
is not a good candidate and she is going to
bring us down. And we can't have a fight where
we skip over her because that will destroy our party.
So basically, her messages leave Biden in place, and that
was never reported this time.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
I've never heard that why.
Speaker 3 (24:02):
And it's very frank from her And to your point
about the ads she ran later, you know, this was
something she had some time to think about. Was Kamala
Harris good for her or bad for her? And she
thought the answer was bad for.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
Her, and she was right. I mean, her ads are effective.
Speaker 3 (24:17):
Tudor. I want to say something just because you you
mentioned the surprise that she has on election, that Kamala
Harris has on election night, and we go into real
detail about the the last hours of the campaign and
what she's hearing from you know, from her aids and advisors,
and even take you into the living quarters of the
Vice president's residence. You know, when she finds out that
(24:39):
she's lost and and can't can't really compute it can't
really figure out what happened here because I saw the crowds,
I saw the love. My team told me that I
you know, I was in good position to win my
uh my senior advisor, David Pluff told the country we
were going to win all seven swing states, and here
I've lost, you know, kind of you know what that happened.
I don't know if I'm allowed to curse on your podcast,
(25:02):
but she's kind of like, what that have happened? And
like she was gas lit too. She felt that way.
And the reason that I bring this up is not
so much about the gas lighting, but it's because of
something you said. You started to talk about that a
little bit. If you read this book, you will get
to know these characters in ways that I think well
(25:23):
on the Democratic side and on the Republican side, in
ways that I think really reflect humanity, both strength and weakness,
and sometimes it's the same trait that's a strength and
a weakness in a way that you normally don't see
in politicians. And so what I would say for readers
is I think it's illuminating in that way, not just
(25:44):
the fresh scoops of news and things you didn't hear
about during the election, But I really think there's an
interesting set of character studies here, and I thought it
was fascinating for you to bring up having that feeling yourself,
you know, campaigning, because there are so many commonalities between
all of us is human beings. And you know, I mean,
I'm not in a party, but I watch a lot
(26:04):
of people in parties, and I sometimes think to myself,
you know, the two of them are so much alike
that they hate each other. Not the two parties, but
two people all look at and I'll be like, these
people hate each other, but really they have so many
similar human experiences, and I think the book gets into
that some of that character study.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
Well, let's take a quick commercial break. We'll continue next
on the Tutor Dixon Podcast.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
When you take us into Nancy Pelosi's living room, you know,
these are figures that I've watched for years and sometimes decades,
And you know, I'm not on the same side of
the aisle as Nancy Pelosi, but I certainly can respect
what she's done in life, and I can respect the power.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
That she has wielded and the way she has wielded it.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
And sometimes I don't agree with a lot of times
I don't agree with her or what she does, but
I respect the way she's been able to get things done.
But then I'm in her living room, and I'm watching
her in a Vonne room in my mind's eye through
the book, in a vulnerable position, which we all have experienced,
you know. But but this is something that she's vulnerable,
(27:09):
and it affects all of our lives, you know. And
and I see Susie Wiles in this book, and you talk,
you talk about her, and when she has that realization,
if they can't get him through law fair, then maybe
they kill him. And she's upset, and and and that
is the.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
Susie that I know.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
You know, the Susie that I know is she she
will fight to the end for you.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
But you become like family. The people around her become
like family.
Speaker 3 (27:38):
And there's a reason she has so many loyal and
competent people around her. And it's it's that, right, I mean,
you know, she's she has this premonition, this scary premonition.
You know that they may they may try, you know
that somebody may try to take a shot at Trump.
And and she, you know, she's tearing up and here's somebody.
You know, you always see the pictures of her, you know,
(27:58):
the sunglasses, the you know, the the you know, I'm
sure it's a perfectly modestly and appropriately paid for a haircut,
but you know, perfectly perfectly bobbed hair and everything. And
you know, she has like kind of an iconic look
within Republican politics, and you never think of her as
somebody who's you know, gonna gonna melt or be soft.
(28:19):
And here she is thinking about the possibility that, you know,
think about all the things Donald Trump has gone through,
and then thinking, you know, what else can happen to
this man? And then it, you know, kind of strikes
her and and she just you know, tears up and
starts crying in a little kitchenette in Trump Tower with
just one other aid that's with her at the time.
And you know, she turned out to be right that
(28:41):
somebody took a shot at President Trump. I'm you know,
I think it can be easy to conflate political opposition
with lunatics, and I think in this this case, seems
to be a lunatic. But but but the idea that
Donald Trump had to go through more to win reelection
than any can it that we've you know, ever seen.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
You know, that's that's true, and their team was so
tight through it.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
I think that the way you just described her is
I mean, that's the Susi that I know.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
And I think you're right. When someone treats you, they
become so close.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
You know. She she doesn't work for him because it's
a good job.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
She believes in him, She cares about him. She cares
about everybody.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
On that staff like you would not believe. And she
she bring like like I said.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
She brings people in like their family.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
And you may not agree with the politics of it,
just like I said about Nancy Pelosi, but you can
respect the ability to get things done.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
Yeah, there's good people who wear red jerseys and good
people who wear blue jerseys, and people go about things
the right way. Look, you know you were talking about
Pelosi and then I go, I can't tell you how many
Republicans tell me that they wish they had a Nancy
Pelosi on their side.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
Yeah, that's a.
Speaker 3 (29:57):
Common sentiment, I think off and she knows what she
wants to get accomplished, and you know, within her party
she puts she takes a moral high ground so that
you may disagree with her on the morality of an issue,
but from within within the party structure, what are the
Democrats believe? She kind of takes the moral high ground.
She's like, we're going to try to get Democrats elected.
We're gonna try to get a Democratic president, democratic House,
(30:20):
Democratic Senate, and here are the things we have to
do that do that, and I'm willing to sacrifice for it.
I'm going to raise all the money. And in this case,
she sacrificed her friendship with Joe Biden, her friendship of
forty or fifty years, because she thought that instead of
the country being saved by Joe Biden, the country needed
to be saved from Joe Biden. And I don't think
that was easy for her.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
So let me ask you this.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
Though I know I've kept you a little long, but
let me ask you this before I let you got a.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
Great time to door.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
I am too better.
Speaker 3 (30:48):
This is better than Rogan.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
I could talk to you probably for hours, to be honest,
but I do want to ask because I've been thinking
about the fact that there seems to be like this
identity crisis in the Democrat Party and I feel like
this is something that we went through after twenty twenty,
the Trump lost the election, we all went what is
going to happen? And nobody understood, Like people are just
(31:13):
kind of flailing, like who do we connect ourselves to?
Speaker 2 (31:16):
Right now?
Speaker 1 (31:18):
Donald Trump wasn't in the position that Joe Biden is.
You know, people were still super connected to him, but
there wasn't anybody elected that was that Nancy Pelosi figure.
But now I look at the Republicans, I'm like, you know,
we have we have Donald Trump, we have jd Vance,
we have Mike Johnson. There are definite people in place
(31:39):
that I think that the Republicans love, you know, and
they feel like those people will go to.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
Bat for them. Nancy Pelosi never handed that down. Do
you think that was a mistake?
Speaker 3 (31:49):
So, I mean, in a technical sense, she stepped aside,
but you're right, she didn't go away. She remained Speaker
Amerita or whatever the hell that is. Pardon my friends.
They gave her some new fancy title which is sort
of meaningless, and she continues to be a big fundraiser,
and she continues to be influential. And I think her
hope was that Hakim Jefferies would you know, kind of
(32:11):
take up the Mantle and you know, she could mentor
him a little bit, but he has not proven to.
I mean, it's a heck of a vacuum when she
steps aside. Yeah, and he has not filled those shoes yet.
And I'm not sure you know, the Manolo Blonocks fit him.
But we'll find out. I guess we'll find out at
(32:32):
some point. Yeah, she hasn't gone away. And then there
is a huge vacuum for the Democrats, just like there
was for the Republicans. The difference is Donald Trump was
like never went away, to your point, and he wanted
to play in primaries, and like, I think it was
pretty clear, you know, fairly early on that he was
going to try to come back. And there's just nobody
(32:54):
like that in the Democratic Party where you're like, can't
wait to find out what that person does, you know,
I mean there's people who are walking.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
I don't know, but we all thought it was Honestly,
I think a lot of people thought it was Michelle Obama.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
People are like, she's definitely making a play.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
For it, and then you know, a couple of months ago,
she comes out on her podcast She's like, yeah, I'm done.
I want nothing to do with it so now politics, Yeah,
she hates it.
Speaker 3 (33:18):
Martha's vineyard and like make movies and you know what,
like God bless her because I would love to do that,
you know.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
And she she didn't.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
I don't think that people realize that not everybody is
Hillary Clinton. Not every spouse signs up for it and
wants to then take over.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
You know. I think there are political power couples.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
But I think she really enjoyed being first Lady and
she enjoys her time at home now.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
Yeah, absolutely, And look, I think if it had been
up to her, aside from you know, the great wealth
that it has brought them. And I don't mean that
in any sort of conspiratorial or corrupt way. I just mean,
you know, she wrote a book that sold like eight
hundred billion copies, and you know, I mean, aside from that,
I'm sure she would have been happy to never be
(34:02):
first Lady at all. I mean, she just doesn't. She
doesn't want to have to be somebody other than who
she is. And there are such constraints on the roles
of politicians and particularly first ladies. There's such a set
of constraints like protocols and you know, what you're supposed
to do, and we don't see it as much for
the first ladies, I guess, or we don't talk about
(34:23):
it as much, but huge constraints on them on the
way that they're supposed to behave and act and in
public and in private and in throwing state dinners. And
it's not for everybody. Some people just want to be themselves, right.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
I know.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
So we sit here and we watch and we are
I mean, I think even on the Republican side, it
is a different feel because it's only four years.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
We know it's only four years, so we wonder.
Speaker 3 (34:50):
Sure there are some people.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
That are debating that, I admit, but I think the
general public is thinking, you know, what happens in for years?
Does Kamala Harris come back? Is Corey Booker trying to
make a comeback? Who is is it Gretchen Whitmer?
Speaker 2 (35:07):
Who is the.
Speaker 1 (35:08):
Darling that they're trying to bring into that? You know,
it's kind of like a gap between the octagenarians and the.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
Thirty year olds. You know, it's like there's a gap
in the party.
Speaker 3 (35:20):
I'm Generation X and we will never have power.
Speaker 2 (35:26):
Why, yes, me too, I know.
Speaker 3 (35:28):
You're getting skipped.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
Yes, I know, Yeah, I'm mad about it too.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
Why what happened to our was our generation just so
mad about it? They're like, forget it, We're not doing it.
I don't understand.
Speaker 3 (35:41):
I think it's the lack of live birth. So I
think it's simply a population issue. The baby boomers. I mean,
you think about it, like Bill Clinton was a baby boomer,
George W. Bush is a baby boomer. Donald Trump is
a baby boomer. Joe Biden was older than the baby boomers,
but you know, in the same range. And uh and
Donald Trump again is the baby boomers are never going
(36:03):
to give up power.
Speaker 2 (36:05):
I know, I know, I'm still afraid it of my
own mother.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
You know. So they did it well, Like why is that?
Why can't we break through?
Speaker 2 (36:16):
And I feel like.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
I maybe I'm just you know, selfish, but I think
our generation is pretty down.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
To earth coming.
Speaker 3 (36:23):
I agree.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
I mean the baby boomers just their Facebook posts alone
should scare you.
Speaker 3 (36:28):
I mean, first of all, they're on Facebook, and then
you've got like after us, it's like the millennials, and
it's like, are you still sleeping on your parents' couch?
Speaker 2 (36:37):
Yes? Right, yes?
Speaker 3 (36:39):
And you know my kids are a little younger than that.
I have hope for their generation, but not not because
of any evidence.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
Same same.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
I think it's just because there are kids and so
we are we have hope because we want them to
move out eventually.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
That's why.
Speaker 3 (36:55):
Yeah, just like please, I hope that someday. I mean, look,
I want mine to you know, grow up and make
it that, you know, be eighteen year years old in
my house and then go to you know, go to
school and have wonderful lives. But at some point I
definitely want them to move out of the house. And
it would be you know, closer to that eighteen mark
than say that like twenty eight or thirty.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
Yes, yes, well I will say that.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
One of my daughters, she's in eighth grader this year,
and she had serious so we have like the same life.
So she they did this thing where two kids were
candidates for president, and she came to the office and
she was like, so I have to do a campaign video,
and we're like this, You've.
Speaker 2 (37:30):
Come to the right place, you know. So she does her.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
Campaign video and then the next day they do their
they do their videos, they do their little speech, and
she comes back to the office and one of the
guys in the office goes so what happened? And she's like,
I won, And he said, well, how many votes did
you get? She goes, I got the votes and he
was like how about how many? She's like I got
all the votes. We're like, oh, trouble, this is trouble.
Speaker 3 (37:53):
She raged it.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
I'm like yeah, maybe yeah. I'm like, what did you do?
There any illegal maneuverings? Did you bring candy to school?
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (38:03):
Did you pay a consultant to make her video?
Speaker 2 (38:05):
She she is, I should make her pay me with
cleaning the house.
Speaker 1 (38:10):
That's the deal. Like you we major video. Now you
do the work around the house. But somehow she gets
out of everything.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
She is like she is.
Speaker 1 (38:19):
She is genuinely charming. So I will give her that.
She could be a politician one day.
Speaker 3 (38:24):
If you can get your eighth grader to clean the house,
you can come. Please come visit me and get my
eighth grader to clean that.
Speaker 2 (38:28):
Yeah, well, when he is running for president, is it
a girl or boy?
Speaker 3 (38:32):
I got an eighth grade boy and a sixth grade girl.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
So when your son is running for class president, then
we will work out a deal. I'll help put the video,
We'll get him and cleaning that House.
Speaker 3 (38:41):
That sounds fantastic.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
Hell well, it has been a joy to talk to you.
Thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
Speaker 3 (38:47):
You too, take care.
Speaker 1 (38:48):
Yeah, so Jonathan Allen, Wait, we gotta you gotta plug
the book.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
Tell them where to get it?
Speaker 3 (38:54):
Uh? Oh, you get the book. It's called Fight Inside
the Wildest Battle for the White House. And get it
anywhere you buy books Amazon, Bookshop dot Org, Barnes and Noble,
Target or my favorite place a bookstore because I put
out a book during the pandemic and I never got
to see the book on a shelf and a store
(39:14):
and it was like the saddest thing that is sad
you never get to see it. So please buy Fight,
Please read Fight. And I'm easy to reach on Twitter.
So I'm at John Allen DC. Tell me what you
think of it, whether you like it, whether you hate it,
or anywhere in between.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
Yeah. No, I think people will love it, honestly, because
it's you just get sucked into it. I think the
best part about it. And I know I'm letting you go,
but I just want to say the best part about
the book is you lived it in front of the screen.
But this takes you into people's homes. It's like, it's
like having it.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
You're a fly on the wall. I don't know how
you did it.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
I don't know how you got all the information, and
I would never ask you to out your sources. But
it is incredible, and you really it is. It's living history.
It's like what we're living through right now. So you
get to actually, like I said, we expected this book
in twenty years and it's.
Speaker 2 (40:03):
Here right now, So go get it. Jonathan Allen, thank
you so much. Thank you too, and thank you all.
Speaker 1 (40:08):
For listening to the Tutor Dixon Podcast for this episode
and others. Go to Tutor Dixon podcast dot com, the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts
and join us next time.
Speaker 2 (40:18):
Have a blessed day.
Well, welcome to the Tutor Dixon Podcast. This one should
be very interesting because I think all through the twenty
twenty four election, we were all saying, gosh, I cannot
wait until like twenty years from now there's a book
on this and we know exactly what happened behind the scenes.
But we didn't have to wait for twenty years because
Jonathan Allen wrote it for us.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
So today we get to talk to him.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
He's the NBC News senior National politics reporter and he
teamed up with the Hills Amy Parns to write this book.
It's called Fight Inside the Wildest Battle for the White House. Jonathan,
thank you for joining.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
Me, my pleasure. I'm excited to talk to an experienced campaigner.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Well, I actually was reading through this and I'm like,
this is the behind the scenes that people don't know
and the amount of information the candidate doesn't know. Like
you kind of highlight how much they keep from the candidate,
which as a former candidate, it's like.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Oh, it makes you so mad.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
You know, you read it, You're like, this is so
embarrassing that you are kind of kept in this cloud
of I don't know, I guess you're kept at a
cloud of joy to keep you happy.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
And it makes sense.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
I mean, I think it is. It's a joy bubble.
The idea is to make the candidate comfortable and for
the staff to make as many decisions as possible without
the candidate and around the candidate. I mean, it's really
like managing somebody, you know, managing up yes campayn manager
and others. And I think that I think that there
(01:33):
are certain politicians, and certainly those who have become more experienced,
who sometimes say to themselves, you know what, it is
better for me to have a more hands on role
in managing my own campaign because I now understand what
it is that they're keeping from me and what it is.
I'm not being told what it is. I should be
being told what it is that you know, we should
be doing that we're not doing. And I think, actually,
(01:55):
look to your point, and I'm glad you brought it up.
No one has before. You really get a sense of
how much a candidate is in a cocoon, and depending
on the candidate, some are more so and some less so.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Well, and this was such an interesting race because I
think a lot of people were saying for a long time, well,
I know a lot of people on the right side
were saying Joe Biden's off, and I think there was
this ability to kind of play it off as he's
not because that's just the attack from the right, and
maybe even at the beginning it was pushed a little
bit more than he was.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
But if you look at the.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Recordings of him in twenty nineteen to twenty three to
twenty four, there's a striking difference and you start to
highlight that behind the scenes, there's a bit of a
crack in the facade.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
Yeah. Absolutely, And you know the thing is, I think
even in twenty twenty when he ran, it was clear
he'd lost something off his basketball. For those of us
who covered him in Congress or during the vice presidency,
this was a guy that was a chatterbox. You couldn't
get him to shut up, you know, who would talk
to reporters about anything. And then suddenly you know he's
being hidden, you know, effectively in twenty twenty and a pandemic.
(03:06):
You know, because of the pandemic, there were some reasons,
you know, you were going to have big events with
big crowds, But at the same time, I think his
team used that as an excuse to not talk to
the press much, and so you could see that there
was some slippage there, but it wasn't wasn't necessarily an acuity.
Then maybe a little bit. It's harder to tell. I'm
not a doctor, but he wasn't the same guy in
(03:28):
twenty twenty. But there's a progression. People get older, and
if they are suffering from a loss of acuity, that
gets more acute over time.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
And we didn't see him, so that made us even
more skeptical. You know, even once he becomes president, he
doesn't hold press conferences, he doesn't need questions, and then
there was a weird he starts to take questions, but
he's calling out specific reporters, which just felt.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
Odd, certainly, and for a guy who spent his entire
career having great relationships with reporters and knowing them by
name and asking about their kids. You know, there was
just a noticeable difference. And we you know, we have
episodes in the book or scenes in the book where
different Democrats come to the realization that what Republicans are
(04:15):
saying about Joe Biden is not unfounded and in some
cases more right, because you made the point that Democrats
were able to sort of delude themselves into thinking this
is a Republican talking point. We live in such partisan times.
But for all of those, all the US who watched
Joe Biden on television, whether we were people who've spent
time with him or not, we could tell there was
(04:36):
a problem or we could tell there was a difference.
Erk Swalwell, the congressman from California, goes to meet goes
to a picnic at the White House in twenty twenty three,
in the summer of twenty twenty three. He had run
against Joe Biden in the twenty twenty primary. And he
starts to talk to Biden, and Biden doesn't know who
he is. And Swallow has to kind of que Biden
to know who Swawell is. And Swalwell was like an
(04:57):
impeachment manager against Trump. This is not nobody who most
of Washington doesn't know. I mean, I understand, not everybody
in the country, not everybody who's not watching cable news,
you know, knows Eric Swawell. But he is a well
known guy. Biden doesn't recognize him. Biden's talking to donors
in June of twenty twenty three and just freezes, you know,
sort of the episode has described similar to what we
(05:20):
saw from Senator McConnell a few years ago, where you know,
he would just kind of freeze up, and so folks
who didn't see him all the time but every once
in a while noticed a precipitous decline in his capacity.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
Well, I think that was the swallwall chapter was kind
of interesting because he says, I mean, he clearly thought
that was strange. And you would because if you have
been on the debate stage with someone, you certainly recognize
them when you see them off the debate stage.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
So he definitely thought that that was odd.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
And then he comments later that in the debate, they're
joking about, oh, you're going to jail man because the
debate was so bad.
Speaker 3 (05:59):
Yeah, so that's right. It's Swallwell and Reuben Diego, who's
now a senator from Arizona. They're watching the debate with
their wives and there's a knock at the door, and
of course the debate is going terribly for the Democrats.
There's this knock at the door, and Diego, you know,
looks at Swallowa and he's like, man, it's over, it's up.
You're going to jail. Trump's president, and you better run.
(06:19):
And it turns out it's you know, Uber eats at
the door and the whole time Swallwell's going to the door.
Diego is like keeping up the act. He's like, look, man,
if you need to run, I can find a place
for you to hide here. He's from Arizona. He's like,
I know people in the tribes. It's kind of a
kind of a light moment and at a very dark
time for the Democrat.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
I think that I think that's exactly what it is,
because I think there is this moment.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
I mean, just the way you describe it in the book,
and I encourage people to.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
Read it because it is truly a behind the scenes
and I don't know how you got all of the
behind the scenes, but the knowledge that you have of
Nancy Pelosi sitting alone.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
And it's interesting because I think.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
When politics is really personal to you and when you're
very highly engaged, these are kind of moments you don't
want to be around a bunch of people. I remember
being invited to go to a watch party and you're like,
if I go to the watch party, a everybody's gonna
be talking and I won't hear it.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
And what if it goes horribly wrong, and I.
Speaker 3 (07:17):
Think a Midwestern so a whole like you just you
just wrote a whole book about like the Midwestern frame
of mind, like right.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
There, because we all go and watch it together in talk,
I know.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
You're just quietly thinking to yourself, well, what if all
this goes wrong?
Speaker 2 (07:33):
Yeah, well of course yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
And that was honestly, I'm like, beforehand we had I
remember going to an event beforehand and people were like,
I cannot wait, It's gonna be amazing, and I'm like,
I'm just gonna I want to make sure it's amazing.
I just want to feel like it's gonna be great,
because you didn't know who Joe Biden was at that point.
We didn't know he had had the State of the Union,
(07:57):
and he seemed lucid, and people were like, it's not
like you can just turn it on and turn it
off if you can't be looseid one minute and totally
lose it the next. But in the book you has
say that he had days where he was getting to
the point where he had more foggy days than clear,
clear days, and that is kind of how things go,
which is it's not it's not a book it's not
(08:18):
something to gloat about. And I just want you to
know that when you read it and you're on the
right side of the aisle, you don't read it and
go ha ha ha, we were right.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
You read it and you go, how did this happen?
Speaker 3 (08:29):
It's I mean, it's sad on a human level, right,
I mean, anyone aging, anyone who's having struggle, struggles with
their their acuity. And you know, in the case of
Joe Biden, somebody who you know, spent a spent a
career in h in public service, and has now subjected
himself to the biggest spotlight in the world and has
(08:50):
the worst moment that anyone has seen from him or
anybody else in a presidential debate. Uh, you know, with
that bright spotlight on him. That's sad is that this
was the leader of the free world so clearly bereft
of coherent thought even for a moment. Right, even if
that was the worst moment, I think a large number
(09:11):
of Americans thought to themselves, the president of the United
States cannot have any moments like that.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Yeah, we have no leader.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
I mean, that's how it was frightening. It should have
been frightening. And if you weren't frightened by it, You
know that. I think that's an indication of the degree
to which you're a partisan supporter of Joe Biden. And
that's not to disparage people who are partisan supporters of candidates,
but you'd have to be that to have that level
(09:39):
of delusion and not be concerned by what you saw
in the leader of the free world, the person with
his finger on the nuclear button.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
Well, and people who I would have thought would be like,
you know what, he had a bad night and we're
going to rally around didn't. And it's very The phone
tree that ensues after the debate that you talk you
write about is quite enlightening to have Nancy Pelosi and
everybody suddenly texting, who what are we going to do?
Speaker 2 (10:07):
This? Is it? He's done?
Speaker 1 (10:10):
And I don't think that they fully at that point,
I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, grasp that they're
going to pull him, They're going to put someone else.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
They're kind of free falling like what just happened? What
did we just see?
Speaker 3 (10:21):
I think it's a spectrum, and one of the things
we tried to do with the book is show that
spectrum of reaction. Some people are. You know, the Biden
campaign is like, it's just a bad night, and everybody
else is like, cut the crap, it's not just a
bad night. But they have different levels of how much
worse it was than a bad night. I think Pelosi
immediately realized that this was probably fatal for the Biden campaign.
(10:44):
The question of how to get Biden out and who
would replace him is something that she wrestled with over
the course of the next three and a half weeks,
as the Democratic Party did, but she instantly her instinct,
according to somebody who talked to her at the time,
was she was worried that there would be such a
bum rush to get Biden out. That night, I remember
(11:04):
she's getting text messages and phone calls from donors, from
members of Congress, from other political leaders, and she's realizing
how alarmed they are, and she's like, he's going to
get such a bum rush that we're going to end
up with Kamala Harris and never stop or pause to
think about whether that's a good decision. And so I
think she tried to manage that process as best as
she could, tried to keep her fingerprints off of it
(11:26):
for a while, and at some point it became impossible
for her to keep her fingerprints off of it because
none of the other Democrats would have, you know, basically
had the courage to push Biden out.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
But the weird thing to me is there does seem
to be there's this undertone of it can't be Harris
throughout that period.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
There's a lot of people who are panicked about it,
and then there's kind of the discussion of how Whitmer
had been the choice, the second choice. Now it's interesting
because from Michigan we had been told Whitmer was the
first choice and that her staff had actually started looking
at real estate down there, and then at the last
minute that was kind of like pulled, hey, no, and
(12:05):
that race discussion came intoway. He said it would be
a black woman. It has to be a black woman,
you can't be the candidate. And yet when it comes
down which I think is sort of an interesting identity
politics issue, because when it comes down to we need
a new candidate, it seems like the majority of people
are jumping toward Whitmer, but they get pulled, no, it
(12:29):
has to be Harris.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
Yeah, I don't know if it's the majority of people.
You know, what's fascinating from the Michigan perspective, and Bret,
maybe this isn't surprising. On the night of the debate,
Hillary Skulton from Michigan, the congressman, is in a group
chat with a bunch of Democratic women members of Congress
and she texts Whitmer for President, Like, Biden's like still
(12:52):
in Atlanta, you know, the debate has just gone on,
and she's like, Whitmer for President. And the response and
then somebody else on the chain echoes that, and then
some women from the congressional Black cawk has start pushing back,
and they're not pushing back saying, hey, Joe's our guy.
They're saying, you know, over our dead body is Kamala
Harris going to get skipped over? So to the question
(13:13):
of like, how early were some of the people looking
at this is the end of Joe Biden, It was
certainly long before he dropped out. Yeah. Whitmer was scarred
from that first experience. She really didn't like like the
political infighting that went on. She felt like she had
been depicted poorly along racial lines in the battle with Harris,
(13:37):
the sort of shadow battle to become Joe Biden's vice
presidential pick. And it's something she didn't really invite. You know,
she felt like she walked out of that weaker and
having been accused of things that she wasn't you know,
that she didn't really feel were fair in order to
make her look bad. And we all know politics, I mean,
politicians will use whatever they can for whatever reason.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Yeah, I'm not going to sit a lot of tears
over that, but you know, that's personal.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
She said. But she felt she that it harmed her
to the point that she called Kamala Harris a couple
of days after the debate and said said, I'm not
going to run for president under anything. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
I thought that was interesting, that conversation, and that's.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
Never been reported before first time in our book.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
Yeah, and I was. I was impressed with that. It
was a hey, I'm not even trying. This is not
don't feel like I'm trying to encroach on your lane
right now. I'm not trying to do this. Don't send
your dogs after me.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
Basically, and you know, the Harris people, at least some
people related to her, so I gotta be careful with
my sourcing here. You know, openly admitted that they you know,
openly admitted that they did some political dirty tricks on
Whitmer back in back in the twenty twenty days. You know,
it was not a false perception that Whitmer had that
(14:54):
Kamala Harris's team would do everything they could to undermine
her if they felt like she was a problem. So
she made the call and said, like, you know, basically,
if she's not going to run for president and under
any circumstances, why take the pain of somebody thinking you
are and trying to take you out.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
And eventually she does want to, so she was not
wanting to ruin her reputation by any means. I mean,
I think everybody here kind of has seen the trajectory
of her political career, and she's smart, she knows what
she's doing. She doesn't want that ruin. She wants to
have an opportunity in the future. So I give her
credit as a politician for doing that. She saw the
future and she said I'm not going to let this
(15:28):
wreck it. But still not everybody else in the party
was on board with Harris, and even Obama wasn't really
on board with Harris.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
He wanted an open primary.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
Yeah, that's right. You know, we report in this book
on sort of all the behind the scenes conversations Obama
and Biden, Obama and Pelosi. They had a couple conversations
about what to do about Biden, you know, Biden and Pelosi,
you know, as he's trying to stay in and she's
trying to destabilize him, and Pelosi didn't want Harris. Obama
(15:59):
didn't want Harris. Biden wanted Biden certainly more than Harris,
and did some things over the course of that process
and afterward that were really harmful to Harris. And so
he ends up and he endorses her, but you know,
he obviously didn't want her to be the Democratic nominee.
He wanted to be the Democratic nominee. And the problem
(16:23):
for the Democrats was a lot of them at the
very high level looked at Kamala Harris and said she's
not the best candidate. We can do better than her.
And I'm not sure that a the grassroots voters agreed
with that, because she was the vice president that they've
been supportive of for the last several years. Like it
takes a lot for people to hear, you know, how
(16:45):
great she is for three or four years and then decide, well, no,
I no longer think she's great, but the bigger problem
for them was, and you got to this a little bit,
I think the racial and gender politics of the Democrats
trying to pass over a black woman vice president. That's
not happening in the Democratic Party. Like the writing was
on the wall, there is no world in which that
(17:07):
happens in the party without them sacrificing the next three
or four elections because the fear would be you have
an open war over it, and ultimately, you know, black
voters would be angry about it. Not all black voters
would be angry about it. I don't mean to suggest
a monolith, but the party influencers would be pretty pissed
(17:29):
for a long time.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
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This was sponsored by Preborn. So do you think for
Biden it was just about I want it to be
me or do you think that there was not always?
I mean, we always have been curious about the relationship
(18:59):
between the two two of them because it never felt
like it was warm and cozy. It did always kind
of feel like it was an arranged marriage. Do you
think it was just that he wanted to be the president,
or was he like, I don't think she's even as
good as me.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
I think both. I mean, you know, but I think
what's interesting about all of this is you sort of
get this exposure of which of the political players in
the Democratic Party are putting the interests of the party,
and because partisans believe that their party is good for
the country, the interests of the country above themselves, and
which ones are putting themselves above those things. And we
(19:35):
see that play out in real time in the aftermath
of the debate, and Biden continually puts himself in front
of everything else. And you know, maybe that's you know,
maybe people who become president of the United States are
a that and be good at hiding that they're that,
you know, I mean, I think there's something to that
that you know, perhaps Biden was that way all along,
(19:56):
but better at hiding it than some I don't. You know,
President doesn't even try to hide it. He's like, I'm
out for me, but out for me is good for you,
And so you know, the accept the out for me,
and it's you know, I think that's one of the
reasons people find him authentic is that he's not trying
to cover up you know, his that his he has
a self interest and he will pursue the self interest
and he believes that self interest is in line with
(20:17):
the interests of the public. But traditionally you kind of
try to hide that if you have it. Biden doesn't
hide it. You know, once once the debate happens, his
staff starts, uh starts bashing Kamala Harris to donors and
to politicians, and they they're saying, like, you know, if
you if you keep on pushing on Biden to get out,
(20:40):
you're gonna end up with Harris, and that's going to
be disaster for the party. This is the sitting vice
president of the United States and clearly the most likely
person to take over if he steps aside, and his
team is just like, you know, taking a baseball bat
toward kneecaps.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
That I mean, to be honest, that seems very crazy
because I think as Americans, we've always sort of felt
like the vice president and the president were a team,
and you never you certainly don't want them against each other,
and so that was surprising. But then but then it
does they they all come together. It's Kamala. We talked
about that weird feeling of you you don't you're kept
(21:16):
in the dark ass the candidate. That was also very
shocking to me that she was overwhelmingly surprised that she lost.
But if you're if you take yourself, it's hard because
I lived this the campaign as well, right, So I
feel like I maybe I read that differently, and I
(21:38):
think that you have. She's having these rallies and I'm
watching on TV and I'm like, if I'm her, I
think this too. I've got Beyonce, I've got Oprah. These
rallies are huge. There's so many people coming everywhere I go.
People love me, you know. It's like such a there's
so much energy, it's so hyped. I've got Barack Obama
(22:00):
behind me, the entire party is behind me.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
I'm the person.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
And the polls, the polls on TV, I mean, the
national polls that we're seeing have it very close. The
one like chink in the armor is that you see
Alissa slot can start running ads with Donald Trump, and
then other Senate candidates start running ads with Donald Trump,
and it's like there's this time when here in Michigan
(22:26):
we go, are they not releasing really bad numbers, because
why is Alissa Slotkin putting Trump in her ads?
Speaker 2 (22:35):
This is very weird. She wins, Kamala loses.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
I think the Democrats call that a permission structure, which
is Alyssa slock And saying it's okay to vote for
both Trump and me, knowing, you know, sensing that Trump
is in a better spot in Michigan, and that she's
going to lose more, you know, being stapled to Kamala
Harris than stapled to Donald Trump. And she worried about
that all along. Another thing we report in this book
(22:59):
for the first the day that Donald Trump is shot
in Butler, Pennsylvania, July thirteenth, At the same time, roughly
the same time, Alissa Slockin is at a fundraiser on
Long Island in New York, and Adam Shift, the congressman
from California who is also running for Senate, gets up
and basically says, you know, it's time to get rid
(23:21):
of Biden to a small group of donors. And then
Slacken gets up and she starts basically making the case
that Biden is better for her and for other Democrats
down ballot than Harris. And she's Basically, Biden's not very good.
We could all see he was old. We could all
see that this is a problem. But Kamala Harris is
(23:42):
going to get tied to the woke left, and she
is not a good candidate and she is going to
bring us down. And we can't have a fight where
we skip over her because that will destroy our party.
So basically, her messages leave Biden in place, and that
was never reported this time.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
I've never heard that why.
Speaker 3 (24:02):
And it's very frank from her And to your point
about the ads she ran later, you know, this was
something she had some time to think about. Was Kamala
Harris good for her or bad for her? And she
thought the answer was bad for.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
Her, and she was right. I mean, her ads are effective.
Speaker 3 (24:17):
Tudor. I want to say something just because you you
mentioned the surprise that she has on election, that Kamala
Harris has on election night, and we go into real
detail about the the last hours of the campaign and
what she's hearing from you know, from her aids and advisors,
and even take you into the living quarters of the
Vice president's residence. You know, when she finds out that
(24:39):
she's lost and and can't can't really compute it can't
really figure out what happened here because I saw the crowds,
I saw the love. My team told me that I
you know, I was in good position to win my
uh my senior advisor, David Pluff told the country we
were going to win all seven swing states, and here
I've lost, you know, kind of you know what that happened.
I don't know if I'm allowed to curse on your podcast,
(25:02):
but she's kind of like, what that have happened? And
like she was gas lit too. She felt that way.
And the reason that I bring this up is not
so much about the gas lighting, but it's because of
something you said. You started to talk about that a
little bit. If you read this book, you will get
to know these characters in ways that I think well
(25:23):
on the Democratic side and on the Republican side, in
ways that I think really reflect humanity, both strength and weakness,
and sometimes it's the same trait that's a strength and
a weakness in a way that you normally don't see
in politicians. And so what I would say for readers
is I think it's illuminating in that way, not just
(25:44):
the fresh scoops of news and things you didn't hear
about during the election, But I really think there's an
interesting set of character studies here, and I thought it
was fascinating for you to bring up having that feeling yourself,
you know, campaigning, because there are so many commonalities between
all of us is human beings. And you know, I mean,
I'm not in a party, but I watch a lot
(26:04):
of people in parties, and I sometimes think to myself,
you know, the two of them are so much alike
that they hate each other. Not the two parties, but
two people all look at and I'll be like, these
people hate each other, but really they have so many
similar human experiences, and I think the book gets into
that some of that character study.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
Well, let's take a quick commercial break. We'll continue next
on the Tutor Dixon Podcast.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
When you take us into Nancy Pelosi's living room, you know,
these are figures that I've watched for years and sometimes decades,
And you know, I'm not on the same side of
the aisle as Nancy Pelosi, but I certainly can respect
what she's done in life, and I can respect the power.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
That she has wielded and the way she has wielded it.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
And sometimes I don't agree with a lot of times
I don't agree with her or what she does, but
I respect the way she's been able to get things done.
But then I'm in her living room, and I'm watching
her in a Vonne room in my mind's eye through
the book, in a vulnerable position, which we all have experienced,
you know. But but this is something that she's vulnerable,
(27:09):
and it affects all of our lives, you know. And
and I see Susie Wiles in this book, and you talk,
you talk about her, and when she has that realization,
if they can't get him through law fair, then maybe
they kill him. And she's upset, and and and that
is the.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
Susie that I know.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
You know, the Susie that I know is she she
will fight to the end for you.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
But you become like family. The people around her become
like family.
Speaker 3 (27:38):
And there's a reason she has so many loyal and
competent people around her. And it's it's that, right, I mean,
you know, she's she has this premonition, this scary premonition.
You know that they may they may try, you know
that somebody may try to take a shot at Trump.
And and she, you know, she's tearing up and here's somebody.
You know, you always see the pictures of her, you know,
(27:58):
the sunglasses, the you know, the the you know, I'm
sure it's a perfectly modestly and appropriately paid for a haircut,
but you know, perfectly perfectly bobbed hair and everything. And
you know, she has like kind of an iconic look
within Republican politics, and you never think of her as
somebody who's you know, gonna gonna melt or be soft.
(28:19):
And here she is thinking about the possibility that, you know,
think about all the things Donald Trump has gone through,
and then thinking, you know, what else can happen to
this man? And then it, you know, kind of strikes
her and and she just you know, tears up and
starts crying in a little kitchenette in Trump Tower with
just one other aid that's with her at the time.
And you know, she turned out to be right that
(28:41):
somebody took a shot at President Trump. I'm you know,
I think it can be easy to conflate political opposition
with lunatics, and I think in this this case, seems
to be a lunatic. But but but the idea that
Donald Trump had to go through more to win reelection
than any can it that we've you know, ever seen.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
You know, that's that's true, and their team was so
tight through it.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
I think that the way you just described her is
I mean, that's the Susi that I know.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
And I think you're right. When someone treats you, they
become so close.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
You know. She she doesn't work for him because it's
a good job.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
She believes in him, She cares about him. She cares
about everybody.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
On that staff like you would not believe. And she
she bring like like I said.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
She brings people in like their family.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
And you may not agree with the politics of it,
just like I said about Nancy Pelosi, but you can
respect the ability to get things done.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
Yeah, there's good people who wear red jerseys and good
people who wear blue jerseys, and people go about things
the right way. Look, you know you were talking about
Pelosi and then I go, I can't tell you how many
Republicans tell me that they wish they had a Nancy
Pelosi on their side.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
Yeah, that's a.
Speaker 3 (29:57):
Common sentiment, I think off and she knows what she
wants to get accomplished, and you know, within her party
she puts she takes a moral high ground so that
you may disagree with her on the morality of an issue,
but from within within the party structure, what are the
Democrats believe? She kind of takes the moral high ground.
She's like, we're going to try to get Democrats elected.
We're gonna try to get a Democratic president, democratic House,
(30:20):
Democratic Senate, and here are the things we have to
do that do that, and I'm willing to sacrifice for it.
I'm going to raise all the money. And in this case,
she sacrificed her friendship with Joe Biden, her friendship of
forty or fifty years, because she thought that instead of
the country being saved by Joe Biden, the country needed
to be saved from Joe Biden. And I don't think
that was easy for her.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
So let me ask you this.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
Though I know I've kept you a little long, but
let me ask you this before I let you got a.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
Great time to door.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
I am too better.
Speaker 3 (30:48):
This is better than Rogan.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
I could talk to you probably for hours, to be honest,
but I do want to ask because I've been thinking
about the fact that there seems to be like this
identity crisis in the Democrat Party and I feel like
this is something that we went through after twenty twenty,
the Trump lost the election, we all went what is
going to happen? And nobody understood, Like people are just
(31:13):
kind of flailing, like who do we connect ourselves to?
Speaker 2 (31:16):
Right now?
Speaker 1 (31:18):
Donald Trump wasn't in the position that Joe Biden is.
You know, people were still super connected to him, but
there wasn't anybody elected that was that Nancy Pelosi figure.
But now I look at the Republicans, I'm like, you know,
we have we have Donald Trump, we have jd Vance,
we have Mike Johnson. There are definite people in place
(31:39):
that I think that the Republicans love, you know, and
they feel like those people will go to.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
Bat for them. Nancy Pelosi never handed that down. Do
you think that was a mistake?
Speaker 3 (31:49):
So, I mean, in a technical sense, she stepped aside,
but you're right, she didn't go away. She remained Speaker
Amerita or whatever the hell that is. Pardon my friends.
They gave her some new fancy title which is sort
of meaningless, and she continues to be a big fundraiser,
and she continues to be influential. And I think her
hope was that Hakim Jefferies would you know, kind of
(32:11):
take up the Mantle and you know, she could mentor
him a little bit, but he has not proven to.
I mean, it's a heck of a vacuum when she
steps aside. Yeah, and he has not filled those shoes yet.
And I'm not sure you know, the Manolo Blonocks fit him.
But we'll find out. I guess we'll find out at
(32:32):
some point. Yeah, she hasn't gone away. And then there
is a huge vacuum for the Democrats, just like there
was for the Republicans. The difference is Donald Trump was
like never went away, to your point, and he wanted
to play in primaries, and like, I think it was
pretty clear, you know, fairly early on that he was
going to try to come back. And there's just nobody
(32:54):
like that in the Democratic Party where you're like, can't
wait to find out what that person does, you know,
I mean there's people who are walking.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
I don't know, but we all thought it was Honestly,
I think a lot of people thought it was Michelle Obama.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
People are like, she's definitely making a play.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
For it, and then you know, a couple of months ago,
she comes out on her podcast She's like, yeah, I'm done.
I want nothing to do with it so now politics, Yeah,
she hates it.
Speaker 3 (33:18):
Martha's vineyard and like make movies and you know what,
like God bless her because I would love to do that,
you know.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
And she she didn't.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
I don't think that people realize that not everybody is
Hillary Clinton. Not every spouse signs up for it and
wants to then take over.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
You know. I think there are political power couples.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
But I think she really enjoyed being first Lady and
she enjoys her time at home now.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
Yeah, absolutely, And look, I think if it had been
up to her, aside from you know, the great wealth
that it has brought them. And I don't mean that
in any sort of conspiratorial or corrupt way. I just mean,
you know, she wrote a book that sold like eight
hundred billion copies, and you know, I mean, aside from that,
I'm sure she would have been happy to never be
(34:02):
first Lady at all. I mean, she just doesn't. She
doesn't want to have to be somebody other than who
she is. And there are such constraints on the roles
of politicians and particularly first ladies. There's such a set
of constraints like protocols and you know, what you're supposed
to do, and we don't see it as much for
the first ladies, I guess, or we don't talk about
(34:23):
it as much, but huge constraints on them on the
way that they're supposed to behave and act and in
public and in private and in throwing state dinners. And
it's not for everybody. Some people just want to be themselves, right.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
I know.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
So we sit here and we watch and we are
I mean, I think even on the Republican side, it
is a different feel because it's only four years.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
We know it's only four years, so we wonder.
Speaker 3 (34:50):
Sure there are some people.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
That are debating that, I admit, but I think the
general public is thinking, you know, what happens in for years?
Does Kamala Harris come back? Is Corey Booker trying to
make a comeback? Who is is it Gretchen Whitmer?
Speaker 2 (35:07):
Who is the.
Speaker 1 (35:08):
Darling that they're trying to bring into that? You know,
it's kind of like a gap between the octagenarians and the.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
Thirty year olds. You know, it's like there's a gap
in the party.
Speaker 3 (35:20):
I'm Generation X and we will never have power.
Speaker 2 (35:26):
Why, yes, me too, I know.
Speaker 3 (35:28):
You're getting skipped.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
Yes, I know, Yeah, I'm mad about it too.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
Why what happened to our was our generation just so
mad about it? They're like, forget it, We're not doing it.
I don't understand.
Speaker 3 (35:41):
I think it's the lack of live birth. So I
think it's simply a population issue. The baby boomers. I mean,
you think about it, like Bill Clinton was a baby boomer,
George W. Bush is a baby boomer. Donald Trump is
a baby boomer. Joe Biden was older than the baby boomers,
but you know, in the same range. And uh and
Donald Trump again is the baby boomers are never going
(36:03):
to give up power.
Speaker 2 (36:05):
I know, I know, I'm still afraid it of my
own mother.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
You know. So they did it well, Like why is that?
Why can't we break through?
Speaker 2 (36:16):
And I feel like.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
I maybe I'm just you know, selfish, but I think
our generation is pretty down.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
To earth coming.
Speaker 3 (36:23):
I agree.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
I mean the baby boomers just their Facebook posts alone
should scare you.
Speaker 3 (36:28):
I mean, first of all, they're on Facebook, and then
you've got like after us, it's like the millennials, and
it's like, are you still sleeping on your parents' couch?
Speaker 2 (36:37):
Yes? Right, yes?
Speaker 3 (36:39):
And you know my kids are a little younger than that.
I have hope for their generation, but not not because
of any evidence.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
Same same.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
I think it's just because there are kids and so
we are we have hope because we want them to
move out eventually.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
That's why.
Speaker 3 (36:55):
Yeah, just like please, I hope that someday. I mean, look,
I want mine to you know, grow up and make
it that, you know, be eighteen year years old in
my house and then go to you know, go to
school and have wonderful lives. But at some point I
definitely want them to move out of the house. And
it would be you know, closer to that eighteen mark
than say that like twenty eight or thirty.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
Yes, yes, well I will say that.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
One of my daughters, she's in eighth grader this year,
and she had serious so we have like the same life.
So she they did this thing where two kids were
candidates for president, and she came to the office and
she was like, so I have to do a campaign video,
and we're like this, You've.
Speaker 2 (37:30):
Come to the right place, you know. So she does her.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
Campaign video and then the next day they do their
they do their videos, they do their little speech, and
she comes back to the office and one of the
guys in the office goes so what happened? And she's like,
I won, And he said, well, how many votes did
you get? She goes, I got the votes and he
was like how about how many? She's like I got
all the votes. We're like, oh, trouble, this is trouble.
Speaker 3 (37:53):
She raged it.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
I'm like yeah, maybe yeah. I'm like, what did you do?
There any illegal maneuverings? Did you bring candy to school?
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (38:03):
Did you pay a consultant to make her video?
Speaker 2 (38:05):
She she is, I should make her pay me with
cleaning the house.
Speaker 1 (38:10):
That's the deal. Like you we major video. Now you
do the work around the house. But somehow she gets
out of everything.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
She is like she is.
Speaker 1 (38:19):
She is genuinely charming. So I will give her that.
She could be a politician one day.
Speaker 3 (38:24):
If you can get your eighth grader to clean the house,
you can come. Please come visit me and get my
eighth grader to clean that.
Speaker 2 (38:28):
Yeah, well, when he is running for president, is it
a girl or boy?
Speaker 3 (38:32):
I got an eighth grade boy and a sixth grade girl.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
So when your son is running for class president, then
we will work out a deal. I'll help put the video,
We'll get him and cleaning that House.
Speaker 3 (38:41):
That sounds fantastic.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
Hell well, it has been a joy to talk to you.
Thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
Speaker 3 (38:47):
You too, take care.
Speaker 1 (38:48):
Yeah, so Jonathan Allen, Wait, we gotta you gotta plug
the book.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
Tell them where to get it?
Speaker 3 (38:54):
Uh? Oh, you get the book. It's called Fight Inside
the Wildest Battle for the White House. And get it
anywhere you buy books Amazon, Bookshop dot Org, Barnes and Noble,
Target or my favorite place a bookstore because I put
out a book during the pandemic and I never got
to see the book on a shelf and a store
(39:14):
and it was like the saddest thing that is sad
you never get to see it. So please buy Fight,
Please read Fight. And I'm easy to reach on Twitter.
So I'm at John Allen DC. Tell me what you
think of it, whether you like it, whether you hate it,
or anywhere in between.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
Yeah. No, I think people will love it, honestly, because
it's you just get sucked into it. I think the
best part about it. And I know I'm letting you go,
but I just want to say the best part about
the book is you lived it in front of the screen.
But this takes you into people's homes. It's like, it's
like having it.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
You're a fly on the wall. I don't know how
you did it.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
I don't know how you got all the information, and
I would never ask you to out your sources. But
it is incredible, and you really it is. It's living history.
It's like what we're living through right now. So you
get to actually, like I said, we expected this book
in twenty years and it's.
Speaker 2 (40:03):
Here right now, So go get it. Jonathan Allen, thank
you so much. Thank you too, and thank you all.
Speaker 1 (40:08):
For listening to the Tutor Dixon Podcast for this episode
and others. Go to Tutor Dixon podcast dot com, the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts
and join us next time.
Speaker 2 (40:18):
Have a blessed day.
Host
Tudor Dixon
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