April 7, 2025 • 47 mins
In this episode, Tudor interviews investigative journalist Gardiner Harris about his new book, 'No More Tears: The Dark Secrets of Johnson & Johnson.' The conversation delves into the shocking revelations about the pharmaceutical giant's unethical practices, including the marketing of harmful products, the manipulation of regulatory agencies, and the impact of their actions on public health. Harris shares insights from his five-year investigation, highlighting the need for accountability in the healthcare industry and the importance of informed consumer choices. The Tudor Dixon Podcast is part of the Clay Travis & Buck Sexton Podcast Network. For more visit TudorDixonPodcast.com
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Tutor Dixon Podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
We have a special episode today because there's a new
book coming out and it is called No More Tears,
The Dark Secrets of Johnson and Johnson and I have
been reading through this book and I feel like for anybody,
it's shocking. I think for someone who is a mom,
someone who took birth control for years of my life,
(00:24):
someone who's a cancer survivor and has reconstructive surgery and
breast in plants, like all of this is somewhat terrifying
to me. And then I look at what the future
could be with dementia and all of the things that
happened in your body. And this is all covered in
this book in such a shocking way from a brand
that we have put on the side of the bathtub
(00:47):
from the time we were tiny little babies until you know,
the nursing home. And I have Gardner Harris here today
to talk to me about it. He is the author
of the book, and he previously served as the public
health and pharmaceutical reporter for the New York Times and
the Wall Street Journal. Now he's a freelance investigative journalist.
I read that you took five years to do this
(01:09):
book I did.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
Yeah, it took me a long time. I've made some
mistakes along the way. It wasn't just but yeah, mostly
because there are, you know, thousands of documents that I
had to go through, hundreds of thousands of pages, and
I interviewed hundreds and hundreds of people.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
And that's why I bring up that it was five
years because you can tell, I mean, when you read
through this it's so well documented. And I think that
is the stunning part about it. It was obviously a
passion project for you to get to the truth, to
find out what was really going on and truly expose it.
And the timing of this book with RFK Junior at
(01:53):
the Helm of Health and Human Services, it must be
inspiring for you, I would assume to see that.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
Sure. I mean, I think he is certainly someone for
whom a lot of the themes in this book will resonate.
I think, I mean, Tutor, it's interesting. I mean, you
are the perfect person to talk to this about because
the point of this book really is to go through
Johnson and Johnson is the most important healthcare product company
(02:25):
in the world, and going through its history is really
a roadmap for people like you to really protect yourself
and your family. I want people to sort of see
in each part of the healthcare system what can happen,
how it can go wrong, And as you walk through this,
(02:46):
hopefully you can figure out the people you can trust
and the people you can't trust. And you know, one
of the things I'm doing, Tutor, is I'm putting all
of these documents on my web page so you can
do your own research. This is all primary stuff. You
can read all the trial transcripts, you can walk through
(03:07):
all of the internal documents yourself. The one set of
documents that I'm not putting on there are the grand
jury files that I have. Those are secrets. It's illegal
for me to have them. It was illegal for people
to give them to me. I don't want to provide
any clues to investigators to find my sources. But everything
else is online and you can do this work yourself.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
So let's dig in because I as well. At the
end of the book, you say something about Johnson and Johnson.
You compare Johnson and Johnson to the mafia, but you
say that it's worse because they prayed on the most vulnerable.
And I want to be careful. I feel like I
have to be so careful with this conversation because I
(03:54):
don't want there to be a massive mascessary of people
who say I will never trust a company ever again.
Because there are life saving medications that come out of
this company and great products, but should they not be
held accountable for the countless deaths that they've also caused.
I mean, it's such a it's such a double edged
(04:15):
short to talk about the subject, because it's shocking. I mean,
even from the start of the Taile and all disaster,
it's like, you you know, I grew up in the
Chicago area, so I was reading about that and I
can remember this discussion happening.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
And this was such a tragedy.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
They were they were alauded as like, oh, this great
company that came in and saved it. But then you
read that they had so many warnings that this was
going to happen and they could have stopped it, but
they didn't because of cost.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
Well, because it's I mean, what you know, one of
the things that everyone who goes to Harvard Business School,
everyone who goes to the Wharton School. In the first
month at those schools, you get this case study of
how Johnson and Johnson handled the nineteen eighty two Tile
and Hall poisoning scare, and it is widely considered by
(05:10):
far the best corporate response to a crisis ever. And
that's what business school students are always taught, That's what
communications schools students are always taught. And what I wanted
to do is go through that story again and show
that that's not actually true. That the company did a
(05:35):
lot of things that are not particularly ethical. I mean,
one of them, of course, is that they almost certainly
were paying the FDA commissioner at the time. You know,
every FDA commissioner in modern history has gone to work
for pharmaceutical manufacturers after they left office, many worked for
(05:57):
them beforehand. Or Hayes Junior, the commissioner at the time,
is the only one who was taking money as far
as we know, from Johnson and Johnson and other pharmaceutical
companies at the time he was commissioner.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
So let me take you now back.
Speaker 3 (06:17):
We don't actually know that it was Johnson and Johnson,
but we know that he was taking money from Johnson
and Johnson afterward, and we know that he was taking
money from some unnamed pharmaceutical company while he was commissioner.
It never actually came out, which but it's it's hard
not to speculate that it was likely Johnson and Johnson.
(06:40):
You know, look, Tutor, I want to urge people to
get this book while they can, because you know, Johnson
and Johnson is basically a law firm with a drug
and a device company attached. They have spent thirty five
billion dollars since twenty eleven on legal services. They basically
(07:04):
have every major corporate law firm working for them. They
sue everyone, and so you know, it's this project was
always a little bit of a suicide project. Everyone I
talked to about it, many of them my old friends,
were like, Gardner, you're crazy, Like do you know what
(07:25):
kind of lawyers these people have? Why are you doing this?
Speaker 1 (07:29):
And that's what I thought. I'm like, how is he
going to get away with putting this out?
Speaker 2 (07:34):
I mean, this is That's how much I know about
how dangerous these companies are. And I think innately we
all kind of know that because I'm reading this and
I'm like, this guy is going to end up suicided,
Like how did he? How is he so brave to
do this?
Speaker 3 (07:50):
So it's a miracle that this got through random House's lawyers.
It took weeks. A huge amount of the book ended
up falling out. But to be clear, Random House is
British subsidiary will not publish this book. We're still in
discussions with the Indian one. But you know this is
(08:10):
not being published almost anywhere else because of the legal risks.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
Wow. And I can completely understand why. I mean, you
you just talked about the bribing of the FDA commissioner,
but it's really you go into detail about the bribing
of America's doctors. And it's funny because when I first
got into the corporate world, I was working in manufacturing,
but so many of my friends were selling drugs, selling
(08:39):
drugs for pharmaceutical companies. You know, it sounds bad, but
they were the salespeople for the big for big Pharma.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
And that was exactly how it was.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Every day was a they were going from one place
to another with a big thing of panera or you know,
whatever the big food item.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
Was of the day.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
They would provide a massive line. She would go to
the doctor's office and they had a huge spread of food.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
All the nurses were taking food.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
They were giving out free drugs, and you would go
to the doctor and they say, oh, well, I have
a free sample.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
You try it and then.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Come back to me and tell me how it is.
I remember this so clearly.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
And these kids.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
I was working in manufacturing and you know, we're probably
a normal couple trying to figure out life. And my
friends who were working at Big Pharma, they were getting
fancy cars. They were just a local salesperson in western
Michigan and they were bringing in bang.
Speaker 3 (09:36):
It's a hugely profitable way of going. As I point
out in the book, basically nothing the pharmaceutical industry did
was more remunerative, more profitable than giving money and foods
to doctors. Every penny that they spent on doctors they
(09:57):
got back fourfold in in drug sales, and of course
it led doctors. Every study that's been done on this
practice has shown that it makes doctors worse at their jobs.
And it's going on today, Tutor. I mean, there is
the Physician Payment Sunshine Act, which passed because of my
(10:18):
stories back in the day, shows that pharmaceutical companies to
this day are giving doctors two point three billion dollars annually,
mostly in cash. And these are quasi consulting relationships, but
basically they are hidden ways of just paying doctors for
(10:44):
their prescriptions. And you know, I walked through case after case.
This is how the opioid crisis took off, of course, Tutor.
As you know, it's how we can talk about the
antipsychotic crisis, which is twice as bad as the opioid
crisis and is going on right now. We can talk
about the epo crisis in cancer, you know, close to
(11:09):
your heart, which is about the size of the opioid
crisis in terms of the number of people who were killed.
And in case after case after case after case. You know,
it's doctors taking money and prescribing drugs in dangerous ways
as a result. But it's not just doctors, Tutor. Of course.
You know, as we go through the baby powder stuff,
(11:31):
you will see that countless top notch corporate lawyers are
knowingly lying in federal court about trying to hide the
fact that asbestos has been found in baby powder for
as long as.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
It's been made, causing an answer.
Speaker 3 (11:51):
Causing cancer, causing countless women, probably more than one hundred
thousand women to die of ovarian can answer is the
best epidemiological estimate.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
It's just shocking to me.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
I mean, as I'm reading through this, I read through
all of the facts that they're doing all of these trials,
and you think about all the drugs that the FDA
does not approve, and they're going through all these trials,
and the trials are proving that the product is bad.
And yet they have lobbyists and like you said, they've
got law firms, they own Washington, they own the FDA.
(12:29):
Essentially they can get things through no matter what. And
that I was reading about the mesh that they use
in the hernias that you have in there, that they said, Okay,
you know women have these prolapsed bladders. They're going to
use this mesh to And these are just facts, folks.
I know this is a hard discussion to have. People
don't want to hear about it. I've had four kids.
(12:51):
You certainly things change inside your body, you know. And
they went to women and they saw, we've got a
better way of lifting up your black better so that
you don't have this prolapsed bladder.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
Your insights are going to be much better. They use
this mesh.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
And I think the most it's just shocking when you
read about this, and it makes me get emotional because
I was like, they knew this was happening to women.
And the most shocking part is that the women are
getting sick, they have infections.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
They know that they're getting infections.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
But then they kill thousands of women around the world too.
They're hundreds and hundreds.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
Of thousands, and Johnson and Johnson knows, and they do
nothing about it. According to your book, they go, well,
you know.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
What did they know? They knew before they started selling this.
They had research that showed that it for about a
third of women, it was going to make it impossible
for them to have vaginal sex again in their lives.
It was essentially going to rip their vaginal walls for
(13:57):
the rest of their lives, that they would leak blood,
you'd never be able to wear a skirt, you never,
you would always have to have pads. And they knew
this before they started selling it. And in fact, you know,
as I walk through in the book, you know, vaginal
(14:18):
mesh is the next to last product I talk about.
COVID nineteen is of course the last one. But what
Johnson and Johnson does is first they they lie tot FDA,
and then with vaginal mesh, they don't even bother to lie.
They don't even ask FDA for permission to sell it.
(14:39):
They just start selling it and FDA doesn't really find
out what's going on for years.
Speaker 4 (14:45):
But what I show in the book is that FDA
does basically nothing each time it catches Johnson and Johnson
in one of these you know, criminal.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
Situations. And that's because Johnson and Johnson another story I
tell saved FDA in twenty twelve, got FDA the money
it needed through Congress, and FDA paid Johnson and Johnson
back again and again and again and again by not
going after it when the company clearly was doing wrong things,
(15:25):
and by in fact putting out statements just before Johnson
and Johnson was was going to trial and was someone
was going to take them to account, and FDA would
put out a statement in support of Johnson and Johnson,
just sort of out of the blue. It did this
in baby powder, It did this with rispirt All. It
(15:46):
did this with opioids. You know. One of the things
that we talk about I talk about in the book.
Of course, everybody knows about the opioid crisis. Everyone knows
that Purdue Pharma and the Sacklers were to blame. Well
that's just not true. You have to ask yourself why
you think that of the bodies that showed up in
Morge during the prescription opioid crisis, you know, we're now
(16:08):
in the fentanyl crisis. By the way, fentanyl is a
Johnson and Johnson drug, but we're now in the in
the original prescription crisis, about ten percent of the bodies
that showed up in Mortge, how to Purdue Pharma product
in their system. Sixty percent had a J and J
product in their system. No one knows this. Why don't
you know it? It's because this company is everywhere in
(16:33):
the health system, in the political system, and in media.
You know, I worked at the New York Times. I
worked at the Wall Street Journal. As you know, Tutor,
I take both of those publications to task for failing
again and again and again to tell this story.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
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Speaker 1 (18:02):
Now stick around, We've got more after this.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
You're talking about death and destroyed lives, and obviously death
is destroying everybody's life around that person too. But even
the products like the vaginal mesh that you were just
talking about. When you say these women can never have
sex again. I think the most striking comment was the
woman you interviewed who said, I never thought that this
(18:29):
would be the end of my life at seventy one.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
Years old and the end of my marriage.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
And that was so sad to me because the husband
described this as making love to a wire brush. This
is what this company did to people, and they get
away with it, and this was like twenty years That's
the shocking thing to me is like this started in
the late nineties and the FDA doesn't really say we're
done until twenty nineteen.
Speaker 3 (18:54):
Right, How that's right? And look, other countries pulled the
vaginal mesh, like the Australians. It's an interesting thing that
vaginal mesh in Australia was an enormous scandal, a huge
controversy that the Prime Minister addressed that the Senate in
Australia launched an investigation of They actually created clinics just
(19:18):
for women who had had vaginal mesh inserted, and they
forced Johnson and Johnson to take this product off the
market seven years before the FDA did so. And they
both knew all the same information. Why was the FDA
so much slower?
Speaker 2 (19:39):
But also, I mean doesn't that you just said, you've
took You've taken your old media outlets to task for
stuff like this. But this does sound like something that
you think happens in China or Russia, where the people
are so so insulated that they don't actually get to
hear the truth because the state media can control whether
(20:00):
or not the people know what's actually happening to them Medically,
it seems impossible that with a free press, that this
could happen in the United States of America, and that
no one. No one's saying, man, these women are suffering horrendously.
There's never a documentary, there's nothing exposing me. I mean,
it's just it's just totally shocking. And as I'm reading
(20:21):
about these other medications, the rispered doll is that how you.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
Say it, right?
Speaker 3 (20:27):
Yep?
Speaker 2 (20:28):
That one also, I mean the link of that finding
out that this is not good for elderly patients. They're
using it for dementia, they're using it for Alzheimer's, they
know it's not good. It also is making these patients
more susceptible to respiratory illness COVID hits patients are taking
this drug Johnson and Johnson knows the combination is the
(20:50):
most deadly combination they can have.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
They no one says anything. Where's the media?
Speaker 4 (20:55):
Right?
Speaker 3 (20:56):
And to this day, no one has looked the United
States for terrible death in its nursing homes, much worse
than any other country. The United States also uses Risperdol
and other antipsychotics in nursing home patients, much more than
any other country. These drugs the reason, one of the
great reasons they kill you is by making, as you said,
(21:19):
you more susceptible to respiratory infection. COVID nineteen is a
respiratory infection. Why did all these people get wiped out
in nursing homes? Well? Was it because so many of
them were being inappropriately given Risperdol and these other drugs.
You know, as I have the Grand jury files on
(21:39):
the Risperdol investigation right, And what I go through is
that Johnson and Johnson basically told psychiatrists and other doctors,
don't worry. You can continue to give risperdol to your
patients even if you kill them, and no one will know.
No one will be able to catch you because you
(22:01):
die from ursperdol the same way you die other ways,
like you get heart attacks and strokes, and you get infections,
and no one will be able to distinguish between those
who died because of risperdol and those who just died naturally.
But then they said, according to these grand jury files,
to cover your tracks, start diagnosing your dementia patients as
(22:25):
having late onset schizophrenia. Right there is no such thing
as late onset schizophrenia like nowhere, but psychiatrists across the
country start diagnosing their dementia and Alzheimer's patients as having
schizophrenia right now, tutor, At this moment, one in nine
(22:47):
nursing home patients in the United States is diagnosed with schizophrenia. Okay,
nearly all of those diagnoses are false. You know, no
more than one percent of the entire population is schizophrenic,
and nearly all schizophrenics die in their fifties. Schizophrenia itself
(23:08):
costs you about thirty years of life expectancy. So there
are almost no genuine schizophrenics in nursing homes, and yet
nearly fifteen percent of nursing home patients right now are
diagnosed with schizophrenia. As a top person from the FDA
told me off the record, this is mass euthanasia with
(23:32):
plausible deniability.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
And the drug is not even doing what they say
it's supposed to do.
Speaker 3 (23:39):
No, of course not it does.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
Just a cash cow, is that what it is?
Speaker 3 (23:45):
Sure? Johnson and Johnson made more than one hundred billion
dollars on that drug. And you know, and here's the thing, Tutor,
Johnson and Johnson was the lead of making these what
are known as typical antipsychotics. There were four other companies
that made them. Every single one of those companies pleaded
(24:06):
guilty to charges that they were bribing psychiatrists and others
to prescribe these drugs in inappropriate ways. So here's the thing.
If you know a psychiatrist who's about fifty or older,
they were participants in the largest costliest and deadliest criminal
(24:29):
conspiracies in American history. That's not hyperbole. Like the number
I have this estimate there at least a million patients
have died. Another epidemiologist estimated its upwards of six million,
So it's a huge amount of death. Again, like a
(24:53):
huge share of the nation's psychiatrists were part of this.
Because every single company involved in this situation plead it
guilty to bribing them. This is not just a small
number of psychiatrists. The Grand Jury files show nearly everyone participated.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
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got more right after this. I've told this story a
(26:39):
couple of times. About maybe a year or two years ago,
I met a man at a conference and he came
up to me and he said, Hey, I hear that
you're in Michigan. I think you could help us out
in Michigan. We're really trying to get into Michigan. We
run a company that make sure that patients who can't
afford pharmaceuticals get them for free.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
Said what do you mean. He said, well, you know.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
The pharmaceutical companies want to get them onto these meds,
so they will give them to them for free. And
I said, explain to me what you mean. Well, they
figure that if they can get one person on the family,
their goal is to get every person on the family
on a pharmaceutical. So if they can get one person,
even if they can't afford it, eventually they'll get the
(27:20):
payment for the drug. So once they get one person
on a pharmaceutical, they can get the rest of the
family on a pharmaceutical and I was horrified.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
I said, is that really you want to represent that? Wow?
Speaker 2 (27:33):
I mean this has helped, this is helping to save lives,
but now we're talking about little kids.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
They're getting little kids on medication that.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
I read your book and I say, and that's what
I say, is the danger. I don't want to believe
that everything is bad, and I know there are medications
that are life saving. I mean, my gosh, I've watched Outlander.
I know that back then people just died of infection.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
You know, It's like, I know.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
It is, it is, But at the same time, I'm like,
I don't want my kids on meds. They don't need
to be on. I don't want any of these kids
on meds they don't need to be on. I don't
want any adults to be on meds they don't need
to be on. And I have seen people that I
love take medications that have had horrendous side effects and
I see no positive change in their health, but they
(28:21):
cannot get off of these medications.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
Well, how do you fight this machine?
Speaker 3 (28:26):
Yeah? I think one of the most shocking parts of
these last five years to me was the number of
times that Johnson and Johnson actually went after babies. You know,
this is a company that calls itself the Baby Company,
one of the stories I tell, and it had real
resonance for me. My own son, my first born was
(28:50):
in the nicqu for four or five days after his
birth in two thousand and three. And shortly after that
series experience which you know, I'm sure you know about Tutor,
I got these inside documents from Johnson and Johnson showing
that it had been marketing this heartburn drug name Propulsive
(29:16):
for use in babies, and in fact they had created
this very liquid flavored version of the drug, and they
had undertaken twenty separate clinical trials to show that it
was effective in babies in preventing spit up. Every single
one of those trials had failed. Like you shouldn't be
(29:37):
able to do a third trial in babies if you're
first two failed. These are is a protected class that
the ethics of testing anything in infants and babies is fraught,
and you must believe that this. You must have very
good reason to believe that it's going to be effective.
(29:57):
For them to do it, they ended up doing twenty trials,
all of them failed. They nonetheless underwrote this quiet marketing
campaign for these to be used in the smallest of infants.
They were so successful that one in five nick you
infants were given Propulsive for these years. And not only
(30:20):
was it not effective in them, but it caused what's
called you know, it caused the basic arrhythmia QT prolongation.
So it killed baby after baby after baby after baby.
And they knew this. The babies were piling up. The
FDA was expressing more and more alarmed, Why is this
drug being given to babies. It's not approved for babies.
(30:43):
We know what doesn't work? What's going on? And FDA
didn't know that Johnson and Johnson was quietly underwriting a
marketing campaign for its use and what they called happy spitters,
which was healthy babies who had some it up problems,
just give them propulsive. And you know, I had just
(31:05):
had my son in a NICU unit. I mean, if
not for just luck and a little bit of a delay,
that might have been my child. And so and this
is true like in baby powder. Of course, you know,
this is contaminated with asbestos. It's being given, it's being
put on babies' bottoms, and of course moms themselves breathe
(31:30):
it in. And there's example after example after example of
this of them going after babies.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
I mean, we had a gentleman on who he was
the one who did all of the research after the
Columbine killings and after the girl who had convinced her
boyfriend to commit suicide, and he he had been gathering
for school shootings. He had been gathering the medical datata
(32:00):
that he could. Some of it you can't get because
they're under eighteen. And he said, I had gone to
the FDA early on and said, for these medications that
were used in ADHD and ADD and those for all
these young people, they are causing suicidal and homicidal tendencies.
You have to have that in the ads. And then
(32:20):
you suddenly start seeing ads. It's like, if you're thinking
of harming yourself or someone else, this could be because
you're on this medication. Well, he contends that he believes
that this increase in depression. He said, this isn't solving depression.
These drugs aren't actually solving depression. So we're more depressed
than we ever have been. And I read your book
(32:41):
and I think, my gosh, what if we are causing
some of these terrible disasters to happen because they alter
how your brain thinks, how you communicate, and what your
body thinks is the necessary thing to do, because you're
changing the chemicals in these people's bodies. Then I read
your book and I'm like, what are who can we trust?
(33:02):
I mean, you you make a statement, you say a
few companies in America have had a wider gap between
their public reputation and their actual actual conduct that conduct
than Jay and Jay, and I see that, and I think,
and you talk about the money and the advertising and
the pr that they had behind them, there are so
many more?
Speaker 1 (33:19):
How many more?
Speaker 3 (33:22):
Right? Well, you know, I covered all of the companies.
I think that each one of these companies is very
different and has a very different character. I actually think
that there are a couple of companies that I'm fond
of and think that they are relatively well behaved. The
problem is is that there's this enormous gap, and there
(33:43):
are companies that are really really dark. Tutor. I mean,
as you know, there's a lot of people who've sort
of given up on the system, and there's many people
in public health. I was the public health reporter who
get very frustrated about this that you know right now
of measles outbreak in Texas, and you know they think
(34:03):
the obvious answer is obviously more vaccination, and I think
there's good data for backing up childhood vaccinations. The problem
is that they, my friends in public health, don't understand
that it's very difficult to separate out the lies from
the truth in a system in which an agency like
(34:27):
FDA is so bought and paid for frankly, and is
so enabling bad behavior. So you get sort of public
health endorsement for some products, and it's I think, while
other products it's clear. Johnson and Johnson, in the case
of EPO and cancer, sat on the results of clinical
(34:50):
trial after clinical trial after clinical trial showing that actually
EPO is miracle grow to tumors. This was the most
popular drug in cancer for about fifteen years. If you
have a loved one who died of cancer during the
administrations of Bill Clinton or George W. Bush, there's about
a fifty percent chance that they got EPO, And that
(35:13):
means there's a very good chance that your loved one
either died because of Johnson and Johnson or lost precious
months of life because of them, and because they had
done these studies that they didn't even give the data
to the FDA too, And the FDA really did nothing
about it. So that's why there's this loss of faith.
(35:37):
You know, the places, for instance, I point out in
the book EPO is still used by oncologists in small
towns throughout the country. These are the places that have
lost faith the most. Right, that's not a coincidence.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
Right, Well, and that was.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
And then you have the the birth control that's not
actually preventing you from getting pregs, but it's just adding
I mean, and that was. And then you know, when
I had breast cancer, that was shocking. How every doctor's
office you walked into, how long were you on birth control?
How long were you on birth control? That was the
first question every time. What birth control did you take?
Speaker 1 (36:16):
How long were you on it?
Speaker 2 (36:17):
And I'm like, they know, they know what's happening to us,
And it is crazy how many women have this.
Speaker 5 (36:25):
The problem, as you know, is estrogen, right, And as
you know, and I had estrogen receptive cancer right and
after I'm sure you took estrogen blocking drugs after your cancer, right, And.
Speaker 3 (36:40):
So birth control pills used to have very high high
levels of estrogen. And they gradually started notching down as
as doctors realized you would still get the birth control
effect with much lower levels of estrogen. But what Johnson
and Johnson did with its patch is launch a patch
(37:03):
that had basically twice as much estrogen as the low
dose birth control pills on the market, and they lied
to FDA about it, and so thousands upon thousands of
women had strokes, had heart attacks, all who didn't need
to have them, all because they didn't know that they
were getting this huge dose of estrogen.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
I mean, it's just shocking. So I want to go
through I know I've kept you a little bit long
because I just can't. I'm just like, this is mind
blowing and I could talk about it for hours, but
I do want to quickly touch on the COVID vaccine because.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
I think that I was watching that again as.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
A woman, I feel like this is overwhelmingly shocking for women.
But again as a woman, I'm watching this, they're like, oh,
this is actually causing these terrible blood clots and women.
You know, maybe we'll back off of women taking it,
but this is again already after in Europe they're like, yeah,
we're not going to have the J and J vaccine.
We're not going to have the I think Astrod Seneca
(38:05):
was like the same situation. They pulled it, right, The
FDA allows them leeway to fix it. They're like, eh,
work on it a little bit longer, knowing it's no good.
Speaker 3 (38:20):
Right. The COVID vaccine story, you know, this was a
moment that Jay and J hoped would would sort of
revive its reputation by the time COVID came about, many
of these scandals that we're talking about, and you know,
just then FDA finally tested baby powder itself and announced, surprise, surprise,
(38:40):
that they had found asbestos in baby powder. Right, And
it's a story I also tell about how they even
in that situation, they know that these this lot of
baby powder, they certainly know that has asbestos in it.
They don't announce this immediately. They let Johnson and Johnson
have four days to sort of figure out what they're
talking for are so Johnson and Johnson knew that they
(39:02):
were in trouble and saw the COVID nineteen situation as
a chance at redemption. This is everyone is going to
sort of ignore all the stuff that we had done
before if we can save the planet. But of course
the project that they launch is the use of a
(39:25):
cold virus as the kind of vehicle to transport the
COVID nineteen vaccine. And they know before going into it
that there are all these problems using cold viruses as
a vaccine transport because it causes bizarrely both plotting and
bleeding at the same time. You know, usually you know,
(39:47):
things either cause clotting or they cause bleeding, but this,
oddly enough, sort of does both. They nonetheless move forward
with this program. They hire this outside manufacturing firm that
has this disastrous history, and all the while they're having
these meetings, the CEO is going to the White House.
(40:09):
President Biden is giving him the platform, you know, praising
him and his scientists as saving humanity, and.
Speaker 1 (40:17):
He's introducing the President.
Speaker 2 (40:18):
I mean, this is like, yeah, well, I mean, this
guy is coming in with like bells and whistles and
you know, a parade of elephants.
Speaker 1 (40:25):
It's just shocking to me.
Speaker 3 (40:28):
All the while he had made this is the CEO,
Alex Gorsky. He had made their COVID nineteen vaccine program
the center of the largest pr campaign that Johnson and
Johnson had launched in forever they had, you know, they
had this podcast, they had videos, they had Sean Penn
(40:48):
working for them, They they had all kinds of pr
going on about this, and they must have known when
he was, when Alex was in the White House with
President Biden, that the whole thing was going to collapse
because FDA inspectors had already found that the facility where
(41:10):
they were manufacturing this had become deeply, deeply contaminated, and
that all nearly most of the doses that they had
promised to deliver in the following months were almost immediately
deep sext because they were contaminated. And yet they continued
(41:31):
to get the PR benefit up until the last second.
Speaker 1 (41:37):
And then it doesn't even they don't even cut it off.
Speaker 2 (41:39):
Really, they end the program quietly in twenty twenty three, right.
Speaker 1 (41:44):
I mean that to me was the most shocking part.
Speaker 2 (41:46):
But you're hearing like little rumblings of there was some
mold found at the facility. It might not be the
cleanest facility. Maybe some doses were mixed together with a
different brand and these are contaminated and you can't actually
ship these out. And then it's like, oh, we're finding
out that women, some women have died. Because the women
have died, we're going to put a pause on it.
But the pause doesn't even last very long. And they're like, oh,
(42:09):
this is just it's so hard to pause it because
we've got to get it into all the college students.
Speaker 1 (42:13):
It's one it's one shot.
Speaker 2 (42:15):
It's so much easier. We've got to do it. And
there and there's this inherent trust in Johnson and Johnson,
and the American public has this trust for Johnson and Johnson,
and that to me was the.
Speaker 1 (42:26):
Pinnacle of all of this.
Speaker 2 (42:28):
And I'm reading this book and honestly, I will tell
people read this. I think you're right, get it right away.
It comes out what next week, right the.
Speaker 3 (42:36):
Eighth it does. Yeah. Cool.
Speaker 2 (42:38):
So it's called No More Tears, The Dark Secrets of
Johnson and Johnson, and we'll we'll put it up there
so people can see it. But I think you have
to read this because it will change the way you
view everything. I mean, even from we didn't get into
the breast plant and plants and the implant illness.
Speaker 5 (42:56):
The breast and plant illness.
Speaker 1 (42:59):
There's so much.
Speaker 2 (43:00):
And that shocked me because when I had after when
I had reconstructive surgery, they were like, well, we've got
this new breast implant and it's this tear drop shape
and it's like it's kind of rough and it stays
in place and you're going to really love it. And
this is what they put inside of me. And a
year later, I start reading that this causes lymphoma, right,
and nobody calls me. Nobody calls me and says, you've
(43:23):
got this cancer. You just got over cancer. You've got
a little device inside your body that's going to cause
cancer again. Nobody calls me. I call Johns Hopkins and
I say, hey, what do you know about this? And
they said, yeah, anybody who's calling us to ask us
about it, we're telling them to get them removed immediately.
Speaker 1 (43:40):
And I did.
Speaker 2 (43:41):
I went and immediately had them removed. But nobody called
me to tell me you have something inside of you
that will cause you to get cancer again.
Speaker 1 (43:50):
It's shocking to me.
Speaker 3 (43:52):
It's a scandal that the medical device industry and regulators
FDA has never required that there be medical device registries
so that you know, we know what kind of medical
devices people get, what then what health consequences they have. Subsequently,
(44:12):
it's been sort of talked about other countries have these
kind of registries. But basically, quietly, the industry has been
opposing it forever. And you know, one of the real
as you know, Tutor, there's women have complained about the
health consequences of breast implants for thirty and four years,
(44:34):
and for all of that time, the industry denied that
there was anything. The FDA asked the industry throughout this
period of time, well, okay, we'll do a study, you know,
follow these women for ten years. And the industry always promised, yep,
we're going to do that, but sure, and then never
did and well it was too hard, we couldn't. Okay,
(44:57):
we're starting another study. The results of that were never
shown like it just you know, we could have found
this information out twenty years ago, and the industry just
basically filibustered throughout that period of time because they didn't
(45:18):
want to know.
Speaker 1 (45:19):
Why would you want to track your mistakes exactly?
Speaker 3 (45:23):
And you know, one of the things I talk about
in the book is that the FDA is terrible at
tracking how drugs and devices operate once they're approved. And
I suggest in the book that we follow what we
do in aircraft. Right, We've got the FAA that approves aircrafts,
(45:43):
and then when there's a crash, we get the NTSB
in there that's independent, that doesn't have this conflict because
they approve the airplane to start with. And I think
that's the problem with FDA. FDA is, first of all,
not only all of their jobs depend upon the industry
and the payments the industry make for them, but also
(46:06):
the medical officers are committed to these products that they approved,
and they don't really want to hear that they're not
working out as well as they thought or hoped. And
so I think there needs to be actually a separate
agency that tracks the safety of medical devices and drugs
once they have been approved, that doesn't have this fundamental
(46:31):
intellectual conflict of how they are invested in this project
product because they approved it.
Speaker 2 (46:38):
I agree. I mean, do these drugs make people violent?
Do these implants make people sick? Do these hips cause problems?
I mean all of these things.
Speaker 1 (46:48):
Do these drugs actually accelerate cancer? All of these things?
And the crazy part about it, I'll just end on this.
Speaker 2 (46:55):
The crazy part about it is that you have to
have a second agency to look at what is happening
because the companies are hiding it.
Speaker 1 (47:05):
They actually know.
Speaker 3 (47:07):
All right. In case after case after case that is true, Tutor.
Speaker 1 (47:14):
Is shocking, So get the book again.
Speaker 2 (47:16):
It's No More Tears, The Dark Secrets of Johnson and
Johnson Gardner. Harris, thank you so much for coming on
and talking to us about this today. It's been eye
opening and I really hope that with Secretary Kennedy things will.
Speaker 3 (47:29):
Change, all right. Take care, Tutor, thanks for having.
Speaker 2 (47:32):
Me absolutely, and thank you all for joining us on
the Tutor Dixon Podcast. Check out the podcast at the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever.
Speaker 1 (47:40):
You get your podcasts and join us next time. Have
a blessing.
Welcome to the Tutor Dixon Podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
We have a special episode today because there's a new
book coming out and it is called No More Tears,
The Dark Secrets of Johnson and Johnson and I have
been reading through this book and I feel like for anybody,
it's shocking. I think for someone who is a mom,
someone who took birth control for years of my life,
(00:24):
someone who's a cancer survivor and has reconstructive surgery and
breast in plants, like all of this is somewhat terrifying
to me. And then I look at what the future
could be with dementia and all of the things that
happened in your body. And this is all covered in
this book in such a shocking way from a brand
that we have put on the side of the bathtub
(00:47):
from the time we were tiny little babies until you know,
the nursing home. And I have Gardner Harris here today
to talk to me about it. He is the author
of the book, and he previously served as the public
health and pharmaceutical reporter for the New York Times and
the Wall Street Journal. Now he's a freelance investigative journalist.
I read that you took five years to do this
(01:09):
book I did.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
Yeah, it took me a long time. I've made some
mistakes along the way. It wasn't just but yeah, mostly
because there are, you know, thousands of documents that I
had to go through, hundreds of thousands of pages, and
I interviewed hundreds and hundreds of people.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
And that's why I bring up that it was five
years because you can tell, I mean, when you read
through this it's so well documented. And I think that
is the stunning part about it. It was obviously a
passion project for you to get to the truth, to
find out what was really going on and truly expose it.
And the timing of this book with RFK Junior at
(01:53):
the Helm of Health and Human Services, it must be
inspiring for you, I would assume to see that.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
Sure. I mean, I think he is certainly someone for
whom a lot of the themes in this book will resonate.
I think, I mean, Tutor, it's interesting. I mean, you
are the perfect person to talk to this about because
the point of this book really is to go through
Johnson and Johnson is the most important healthcare product company
(02:25):
in the world, and going through its history is really
a roadmap for people like you to really protect yourself
and your family. I want people to sort of see
in each part of the healthcare system what can happen,
how it can go wrong, And as you walk through this,
(02:46):
hopefully you can figure out the people you can trust
and the people you can't trust. And you know, one
of the things I'm doing, Tutor, is I'm putting all
of these documents on my web page so you can
do your own research. This is all primary stuff. You
can read all the trial transcripts, you can walk through
(03:07):
all of the internal documents yourself. The one set of
documents that I'm not putting on there are the grand
jury files that I have. Those are secrets. It's illegal
for me to have them. It was illegal for people
to give them to me. I don't want to provide
any clues to investigators to find my sources. But everything
else is online and you can do this work yourself.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
So let's dig in because I as well. At the
end of the book, you say something about Johnson and Johnson.
You compare Johnson and Johnson to the mafia, but you
say that it's worse because they prayed on the most vulnerable.
And I want to be careful. I feel like I
have to be so careful with this conversation because I
(03:54):
don't want there to be a massive mascessary of people
who say I will never trust a company ever again.
Because there are life saving medications that come out of
this company and great products, but should they not be
held accountable for the countless deaths that they've also caused.
I mean, it's such a it's such a double edged
(04:15):
short to talk about the subject, because it's shocking. I mean,
even from the start of the Taile and all disaster,
it's like, you you know, I grew up in the
Chicago area, so I was reading about that and I
can remember this discussion happening.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
And this was such a tragedy.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
They were they were alauded as like, oh, this great
company that came in and saved it. But then you
read that they had so many warnings that this was
going to happen and they could have stopped it, but
they didn't because of cost.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
Well, because it's I mean, what you know, one of
the things that everyone who goes to Harvard Business School,
everyone who goes to the Wharton School. In the first
month at those schools, you get this case study of
how Johnson and Johnson handled the nineteen eighty two Tile
and Hall poisoning scare, and it is widely considered by
(05:10):
far the best corporate response to a crisis ever. And
that's what business school students are always taught, That's what
communications schools students are always taught. And what I wanted
to do is go through that story again and show
that that's not actually true. That the company did a
(05:35):
lot of things that are not particularly ethical. I mean,
one of them, of course, is that they almost certainly
were paying the FDA commissioner at the time. You know,
every FDA commissioner in modern history has gone to work
for pharmaceutical manufacturers after they left office, many worked for
(05:57):
them beforehand. Or Hayes Junior, the commissioner at the time,
is the only one who was taking money as far
as we know, from Johnson and Johnson and other pharmaceutical
companies at the time he was commissioner.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
So let me take you now back.
Speaker 3 (06:17):
We don't actually know that it was Johnson and Johnson,
but we know that he was taking money from Johnson
and Johnson afterward, and we know that he was taking
money from some unnamed pharmaceutical company while he was commissioner.
It never actually came out, which but it's it's hard
not to speculate that it was likely Johnson and Johnson.
(06:40):
You know, look, Tutor, I want to urge people to
get this book while they can, because you know, Johnson
and Johnson is basically a law firm with a drug
and a device company attached. They have spent thirty five
billion dollars since twenty eleven on legal services. They basically
(07:04):
have every major corporate law firm working for them. They
sue everyone, and so you know, it's this project was
always a little bit of a suicide project. Everyone I
talked to about it, many of them my old friends,
were like, Gardner, you're crazy, Like do you know what
(07:25):
kind of lawyers these people have? Why are you doing this?
Speaker 1 (07:29):
And that's what I thought. I'm like, how is he
going to get away with putting this out?
Speaker 2 (07:34):
I mean, this is That's how much I know about
how dangerous these companies are. And I think innately we
all kind of know that because I'm reading this and
I'm like, this guy is going to end up suicided,
Like how did he? How is he so brave to
do this?
Speaker 3 (07:50):
So it's a miracle that this got through random House's lawyers.
It took weeks. A huge amount of the book ended
up falling out. But to be clear, Random House is
British subsidiary will not publish this book. We're still in
discussions with the Indian one. But you know this is
(08:10):
not being published almost anywhere else because of the legal risks.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
Wow. And I can completely understand why. I mean, you
you just talked about the bribing of the FDA commissioner,
but it's really you go into detail about the bribing
of America's doctors. And it's funny because when I first
got into the corporate world, I was working in manufacturing,
but so many of my friends were selling drugs, selling
(08:39):
drugs for pharmaceutical companies. You know, it sounds bad, but
they were the salespeople for the big for big Pharma.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
And that was exactly how it was.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Every day was a they were going from one place
to another with a big thing of panera or you know,
whatever the big food item.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
Was of the day.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
They would provide a massive line. She would go to
the doctor's office and they had a huge spread of food.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
All the nurses were taking food.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
They were giving out free drugs, and you would go
to the doctor and they say, oh, well, I have
a free sample.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
You try it and then.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Come back to me and tell me how it is.
I remember this so clearly.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
And these kids.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
I was working in manufacturing and you know, we're probably
a normal couple trying to figure out life. And my
friends who were working at Big Pharma, they were getting
fancy cars. They were just a local salesperson in western
Michigan and they were bringing in bang.
Speaker 3 (09:36):
It's a hugely profitable way of going. As I point
out in the book, basically nothing the pharmaceutical industry did
was more remunerative, more profitable than giving money and foods
to doctors. Every penny that they spent on doctors they
(09:57):
got back fourfold in in drug sales, and of course
it led doctors. Every study that's been done on this
practice has shown that it makes doctors worse at their jobs.
And it's going on today, Tutor. I mean, there is
the Physician Payment Sunshine Act, which passed because of my
(10:18):
stories back in the day, shows that pharmaceutical companies to
this day are giving doctors two point three billion dollars annually,
mostly in cash. And these are quasi consulting relationships, but
basically they are hidden ways of just paying doctors for
(10:44):
their prescriptions. And you know, I walked through case after case.
This is how the opioid crisis took off, of course, Tutor.
As you know, it's how we can talk about the
antipsychotic crisis, which is twice as bad as the opioid
crisis and is going on right now. We can talk
about the epo crisis in cancer, you know, close to
(11:09):
your heart, which is about the size of the opioid
crisis in terms of the number of people who were killed.
And in case after case after case after case. You know,
it's doctors taking money and prescribing drugs in dangerous ways
as a result. But it's not just doctors, Tutor. Of course.
You know, as we go through the baby powder stuff,
(11:31):
you will see that countless top notch corporate lawyers are
knowingly lying in federal court about trying to hide the
fact that asbestos has been found in baby powder for
as long as.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
It's been made, causing an answer.
Speaker 3 (11:51):
Causing cancer, causing countless women, probably more than one hundred
thousand women to die of ovarian can answer is the
best epidemiological estimate.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
It's just shocking to me.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
I mean, as I'm reading through this, I read through
all of the facts that they're doing all of these trials,
and you think about all the drugs that the FDA
does not approve, and they're going through all these trials,
and the trials are proving that the product is bad.
And yet they have lobbyists and like you said, they've
got law firms, they own Washington, they own the FDA.
(12:29):
Essentially they can get things through no matter what. And
that I was reading about the mesh that they use
in the hernias that you have in there, that they said, Okay,
you know women have these prolapsed bladders. They're going to
use this mesh to And these are just facts, folks.
I know this is a hard discussion to have. People
don't want to hear about it. I've had four kids.
(12:51):
You certainly things change inside your body, you know. And
they went to women and they saw, we've got a
better way of lifting up your black better so that
you don't have this prolapsed bladder.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
Your insights are going to be much better. They use
this mesh.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
And I think the most it's just shocking when you
read about this, and it makes me get emotional because
I was like, they knew this was happening to women.
And the most shocking part is that the women are
getting sick, they have infections.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
They know that they're getting infections.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
But then they kill thousands of women around the world too.
They're hundreds and hundreds.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
Of thousands, and Johnson and Johnson knows, and they do
nothing about it. According to your book, they go, well,
you know.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
What did they know? They knew before they started selling this.
They had research that showed that it for about a
third of women, it was going to make it impossible
for them to have vaginal sex again in their lives.
It was essentially going to rip their vaginal walls for
(13:57):
the rest of their lives, that they would leak blood,
you'd never be able to wear a skirt, you never,
you would always have to have pads. And they knew
this before they started selling it. And in fact, you know,
as I walk through in the book, you know, vaginal
(14:18):
mesh is the next to last product I talk about.
COVID nineteen is of course the last one. But what
Johnson and Johnson does is first they they lie tot FDA,
and then with vaginal mesh, they don't even bother to lie.
They don't even ask FDA for permission to sell it.
(14:39):
They just start selling it and FDA doesn't really find
out what's going on for years.
Speaker 4 (14:45):
But what I show in the book is that FDA
does basically nothing each time it catches Johnson and Johnson
in one of these you know, criminal.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
Situations. And that's because Johnson and Johnson another story I
tell saved FDA in twenty twelve, got FDA the money
it needed through Congress, and FDA paid Johnson and Johnson
back again and again and again and again by not
going after it when the company clearly was doing wrong things,
(15:25):
and by in fact putting out statements just before Johnson
and Johnson was was going to trial and was someone
was going to take them to account, and FDA would
put out a statement in support of Johnson and Johnson,
just sort of out of the blue. It did this
in baby powder, It did this with rispirt All. It
(15:46):
did this with opioids. You know. One of the things
that we talk about I talk about in the book.
Of course, everybody knows about the opioid crisis. Everyone knows
that Purdue Pharma and the Sacklers were to blame. Well
that's just not true. You have to ask yourself why
you think that of the bodies that showed up in
Morge during the prescription opioid crisis, you know, we're now
(16:08):
in the fentanyl crisis. By the way, fentanyl is a
Johnson and Johnson drug, but we're now in the in
the original prescription crisis, about ten percent of the bodies
that showed up in Mortge, how to Purdue Pharma product
in their system. Sixty percent had a J and J
product in their system. No one knows this. Why don't
you know it? It's because this company is everywhere in
(16:33):
the health system, in the political system, and in media.
You know, I worked at the New York Times. I
worked at the Wall Street Journal. As you know, Tutor,
I take both of those publications to task for failing
again and again and again to tell this story.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
We've got more coming up with Gardner Harris, but first
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Speaker 1 (18:02):
Now stick around, We've got more after this.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
You're talking about death and destroyed lives, and obviously death
is destroying everybody's life around that person too. But even
the products like the vaginal mesh that you were just
talking about. When you say these women can never have
sex again. I think the most striking comment was the
woman you interviewed who said, I never thought that this
(18:29):
would be the end of my life at seventy one.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
Years old and the end of my marriage.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
And that was so sad to me because the husband
described this as making love to a wire brush. This
is what this company did to people, and they get
away with it, and this was like twenty years That's
the shocking thing to me is like this started in
the late nineties and the FDA doesn't really say we're
done until twenty nineteen.
Speaker 3 (18:54):
Right, How that's right? And look, other countries pulled the
vaginal mesh, like the Australians. It's an interesting thing that
vaginal mesh in Australia was an enormous scandal, a huge
controversy that the Prime Minister addressed that the Senate in
Australia launched an investigation of They actually created clinics just
(19:18):
for women who had had vaginal mesh inserted, and they
forced Johnson and Johnson to take this product off the
market seven years before the FDA did so. And they
both knew all the same information. Why was the FDA
so much slower?
Speaker 2 (19:39):
But also, I mean doesn't that you just said, you've
took You've taken your old media outlets to task for
stuff like this. But this does sound like something that
you think happens in China or Russia, where the people
are so so insulated that they don't actually get to
hear the truth because the state media can control whether
(20:00):
or not the people know what's actually happening to them Medically,
it seems impossible that with a free press, that this
could happen in the United States of America, and that
no one. No one's saying, man, these women are suffering horrendously.
There's never a documentary, there's nothing exposing me. I mean,
it's just it's just totally shocking. And as I'm reading
(20:21):
about these other medications, the rispered doll is that how you.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
Say it, right?
Speaker 3 (20:27):
Yep?
Speaker 2 (20:28):
That one also, I mean the link of that finding
out that this is not good for elderly patients. They're
using it for dementia, they're using it for Alzheimer's, they
know it's not good. It also is making these patients
more susceptible to respiratory illness COVID hits patients are taking
this drug Johnson and Johnson knows the combination is the
(20:50):
most deadly combination they can have.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
They no one says anything. Where's the media?
Speaker 4 (20:55):
Right?
Speaker 3 (20:56):
And to this day, no one has looked the United
States for terrible death in its nursing homes, much worse
than any other country. The United States also uses Risperdol
and other antipsychotics in nursing home patients, much more than
any other country. These drugs the reason, one of the
great reasons they kill you is by making, as you said,
(21:19):
you more susceptible to respiratory infection. COVID nineteen is a
respiratory infection. Why did all these people get wiped out
in nursing homes? Well? Was it because so many of
them were being inappropriately given Risperdol and these other drugs.
You know, as I have the Grand jury files on
(21:39):
the Risperdol investigation right, And what I go through is
that Johnson and Johnson basically told psychiatrists and other doctors,
don't worry. You can continue to give risperdol to your
patients even if you kill them, and no one will know.
No one will be able to catch you because you
(22:01):
die from ursperdol the same way you die other ways,
like you get heart attacks and strokes, and you get infections,
and no one will be able to distinguish between those
who died because of risperdol and those who just died naturally.
But then they said, according to these grand jury files,
to cover your tracks, start diagnosing your dementia patients as
(22:25):
having late onset schizophrenia. Right there is no such thing
as late onset schizophrenia like nowhere, but psychiatrists across the
country start diagnosing their dementia and Alzheimer's patients as having
schizophrenia right now, tutor, At this moment, one in nine
(22:47):
nursing home patients in the United States is diagnosed with schizophrenia. Okay,
nearly all of those diagnoses are false. You know, no
more than one percent of the entire population is schizophrenic,
and nearly all schizophrenics die in their fifties. Schizophrenia itself
(23:08):
costs you about thirty years of life expectancy. So there
are almost no genuine schizophrenics in nursing homes, and yet
nearly fifteen percent of nursing home patients right now are
diagnosed with schizophrenia. As a top person from the FDA
told me off the record, this is mass euthanasia with
(23:32):
plausible deniability.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
And the drug is not even doing what they say
it's supposed to do.
Speaker 3 (23:39):
No, of course not it does.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
Just a cash cow, is that what it is?
Speaker 3 (23:45):
Sure? Johnson and Johnson made more than one hundred billion
dollars on that drug. And you know, and here's the thing, Tutor,
Johnson and Johnson was the lead of making these what
are known as typical antipsychotics. There were four other companies
that made them. Every single one of those companies pleaded
(24:06):
guilty to charges that they were bribing psychiatrists and others
to prescribe these drugs in inappropriate ways. So here's the thing.
If you know a psychiatrist who's about fifty or older,
they were participants in the largest costliest and deadliest criminal
(24:29):
conspiracies in American history. That's not hyperbole. Like the number
I have this estimate there at least a million patients
have died. Another epidemiologist estimated its upwards of six million,
So it's a huge amount of death. Again, like a
(24:53):
huge share of the nation's psychiatrists were part of this.
Because every single company involved in this situation plead it
guilty to bribing them. This is not just a small
number of psychiatrists. The Grand Jury files show nearly everyone participated.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
Stay tuned for more of my conversation with Gardner Harris,
but first let me tell you about my partners at IFCJ.
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That's eight eight eight four eight eight four three two five,
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one word support IFCJ dot org. Now stay tuned, We've
got more right after this. I've told this story a
(26:39):
couple of times. About maybe a year or two years ago,
I met a man at a conference and he came
up to me and he said, Hey, I hear that
you're in Michigan. I think you could help us out
in Michigan. We're really trying to get into Michigan. We
run a company that make sure that patients who can't
afford pharmaceuticals get them for free.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
Said what do you mean. He said, well, you know.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
The pharmaceutical companies want to get them onto these meds,
so they will give them to them for free. And
I said, explain to me what you mean. Well, they
figure that if they can get one person on the family,
their goal is to get every person on the family
on a pharmaceutical. So if they can get one person,
even if they can't afford it, eventually they'll get the
(27:20):
payment for the drug. So once they get one person
on a pharmaceutical, they can get the rest of the
family on a pharmaceutical and I was horrified.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
I said, is that really you want to represent that? Wow?
Speaker 2 (27:33):
I mean this has helped, this is helping to save lives,
but now we're talking about little kids.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
They're getting little kids on medication that.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
I read your book and I say, and that's what
I say, is the danger. I don't want to believe
that everything is bad, and I know there are medications
that are life saving. I mean, my gosh, I've watched Outlander.
I know that back then people just died of infection.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
You know, It's like, I know.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
It is, it is, But at the same time, I'm like,
I don't want my kids on meds. They don't need
to be on. I don't want any of these kids
on meds they don't need to be on. I don't
want any adults to be on meds they don't need
to be on. And I have seen people that I
love take medications that have had horrendous side effects and
I see no positive change in their health, but they
(28:21):
cannot get off of these medications.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
Well, how do you fight this machine?
Speaker 3 (28:26):
Yeah? I think one of the most shocking parts of
these last five years to me was the number of
times that Johnson and Johnson actually went after babies. You know,
this is a company that calls itself the Baby Company,
one of the stories I tell, and it had real
resonance for me. My own son, my first born was
(28:50):
in the nicqu for four or five days after his
birth in two thousand and three. And shortly after that
series experience which you know, I'm sure you know about Tutor,
I got these inside documents from Johnson and Johnson showing
that it had been marketing this heartburn drug name Propulsive
(29:16):
for use in babies, and in fact they had created
this very liquid flavored version of the drug, and they
had undertaken twenty separate clinical trials to show that it
was effective in babies in preventing spit up. Every single
one of those trials had failed. Like you shouldn't be
(29:37):
able to do a third trial in babies if you're
first two failed. These are is a protected class that
the ethics of testing anything in infants and babies is fraught,
and you must believe that this. You must have very
good reason to believe that it's going to be effective.
(29:57):
For them to do it, they ended up doing twenty trials,
all of them failed. They nonetheless underwrote this quiet marketing
campaign for these to be used in the smallest of infants.
They were so successful that one in five nick you
infants were given Propulsive for these years. And not only
(30:20):
was it not effective in them, but it caused what's
called you know, it caused the basic arrhythmia QT prolongation.
So it killed baby after baby after baby after baby.
And they knew this. The babies were piling up. The
FDA was expressing more and more alarmed, Why is this
drug being given to babies. It's not approved for babies.
(30:43):
We know what doesn't work? What's going on? And FDA
didn't know that Johnson and Johnson was quietly underwriting a
marketing campaign for its use and what they called happy spitters,
which was healthy babies who had some it up problems,
just give them propulsive. And you know, I had just
(31:05):
had my son in a NICU unit. I mean, if
not for just luck and a little bit of a delay,
that might have been my child. And so and this
is true like in baby powder. Of course, you know,
this is contaminated with asbestos. It's being given, it's being
put on babies' bottoms, and of course moms themselves breathe
(31:30):
it in. And there's example after example after example of
this of them going after babies.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
I mean, we had a gentleman on who he was
the one who did all of the research after the
Columbine killings and after the girl who had convinced her
boyfriend to commit suicide, and he he had been gathering
for school shootings. He had been gathering the medical datata
(32:00):
that he could. Some of it you can't get because
they're under eighteen. And he said, I had gone to
the FDA early on and said, for these medications that
were used in ADHD and ADD and those for all
these young people, they are causing suicidal and homicidal tendencies.
You have to have that in the ads. And then
(32:20):
you suddenly start seeing ads. It's like, if you're thinking
of harming yourself or someone else, this could be because
you're on this medication. Well, he contends that he believes
that this increase in depression. He said, this isn't solving depression.
These drugs aren't actually solving depression. So we're more depressed
than we ever have been. And I read your book
(32:41):
and I think, my gosh, what if we are causing
some of these terrible disasters to happen because they alter
how your brain thinks, how you communicate, and what your
body thinks is the necessary thing to do, because you're
changing the chemicals in these people's bodies. Then I read
your book and I'm like, what are who can we trust?
(33:02):
I mean, you you make a statement, you say a
few companies in America have had a wider gap between
their public reputation and their actual actual conduct that conduct
than Jay and Jay, and I see that, and I think,
and you talk about the money and the advertising and
the pr that they had behind them, there are so
many more?
Speaker 1 (33:19):
How many more?
Speaker 3 (33:22):
Right? Well, you know, I covered all of the companies.
I think that each one of these companies is very
different and has a very different character. I actually think
that there are a couple of companies that I'm fond
of and think that they are relatively well behaved. The
problem is is that there's this enormous gap, and there
(33:43):
are companies that are really really dark. Tutor. I mean,
as you know, there's a lot of people who've sort
of given up on the system, and there's many people
in public health. I was the public health reporter who
get very frustrated about this that you know right now
of measles outbreak in Texas, and you know they think
(34:03):
the obvious answer is obviously more vaccination, and I think
there's good data for backing up childhood vaccinations. The problem
is that they, my friends in public health, don't understand
that it's very difficult to separate out the lies from
the truth in a system in which an agency like
(34:27):
FDA is so bought and paid for frankly, and is
so enabling bad behavior. So you get sort of public
health endorsement for some products, and it's I think, while
other products it's clear. Johnson and Johnson, in the case
of EPO and cancer, sat on the results of clinical
(34:50):
trial after clinical trial after clinical trial showing that actually
EPO is miracle grow to tumors. This was the most
popular drug in cancer for about fifteen years. If you
have a loved one who died of cancer during the
administrations of Bill Clinton or George W. Bush, there's about
a fifty percent chance that they got EPO, And that
(35:13):
means there's a very good chance that your loved one
either died because of Johnson and Johnson or lost precious
months of life because of them, and because they had
done these studies that they didn't even give the data
to the FDA too, And the FDA really did nothing
about it. So that's why there's this loss of faith.
(35:37):
You know, the places, for instance, I point out in
the book EPO is still used by oncologists in small
towns throughout the country. These are the places that have
lost faith the most. Right, that's not a coincidence.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
Right, Well, and that was.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
And then you have the the birth control that's not
actually preventing you from getting pregs, but it's just adding
I mean, and that was. And then you know, when
I had breast cancer, that was shocking. How every doctor's
office you walked into, how long were you on birth control?
How long were you on birth control? That was the
first question every time. What birth control did you take?
Speaker 1 (36:16):
How long were you on it?
Speaker 2 (36:17):
And I'm like, they know, they know what's happening to us,
And it is crazy how many women have this.
Speaker 5 (36:25):
The problem, as you know, is estrogen, right, And as
you know, and I had estrogen receptive cancer right and
after I'm sure you took estrogen blocking drugs after your cancer, right, And.
Speaker 3 (36:40):
So birth control pills used to have very high high
levels of estrogen. And they gradually started notching down as
as doctors realized you would still get the birth control
effect with much lower levels of estrogen. But what Johnson
and Johnson did with its patch is launch a patch
(37:03):
that had basically twice as much estrogen as the low
dose birth control pills on the market, and they lied
to FDA about it, and so thousands upon thousands of
women had strokes, had heart attacks, all who didn't need
to have them, all because they didn't know that they
were getting this huge dose of estrogen.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
I mean, it's just shocking. So I want to go
through I know I've kept you a little bit long
because I just can't. I'm just like, this is mind
blowing and I could talk about it for hours, but
I do want to quickly touch on the COVID vaccine because.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
I think that I was watching that again as.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
A woman, I feel like this is overwhelmingly shocking for women.
But again as a woman, I'm watching this, they're like, oh,
this is actually causing these terrible blood clots and women.
You know, maybe we'll back off of women taking it,
but this is again already after in Europe they're like, yeah,
we're not going to have the J and J vaccine.
We're not going to have the I think Astrod Seneca
(38:05):
was like the same situation. They pulled it, right, The
FDA allows them leeway to fix it. They're like, eh,
work on it a little bit longer, knowing it's no good.
Speaker 3 (38:20):
Right. The COVID vaccine story, you know, this was a
moment that Jay and J hoped would would sort of
revive its reputation by the time COVID came about, many
of these scandals that we're talking about, and you know,
just then FDA finally tested baby powder itself and announced, surprise, surprise,
(38:40):
that they had found asbestos in baby powder. Right, And
it's a story I also tell about how they even
in that situation, they know that these this lot of
baby powder, they certainly know that has asbestos in it.
They don't announce this immediately. They let Johnson and Johnson
have four days to sort of figure out what they're
talking for are so Johnson and Johnson knew that they
(39:02):
were in trouble and saw the COVID nineteen situation as
a chance at redemption. This is everyone is going to
sort of ignore all the stuff that we had done
before if we can save the planet. But of course
the project that they launch is the use of a
(39:25):
cold virus as the kind of vehicle to transport the
COVID nineteen vaccine. And they know before going into it
that there are all these problems using cold viruses as
a vaccine transport because it causes bizarrely both plotting and
bleeding at the same time. You know, usually you know,
(39:47):
things either cause clotting or they cause bleeding, but this,
oddly enough, sort of does both. They nonetheless move forward
with this program. They hire this outside manufacturing firm that
has this disastrous history, and all the while they're having
these meetings, the CEO is going to the White House.
(40:09):
President Biden is giving him the platform, you know, praising
him and his scientists as saving humanity, and.
Speaker 1 (40:17):
He's introducing the President.
Speaker 2 (40:18):
I mean, this is like, yeah, well, I mean, this
guy is coming in with like bells and whistles and
you know, a parade of elephants.
Speaker 1 (40:25):
It's just shocking to me.
Speaker 3 (40:28):
All the while he had made this is the CEO,
Alex Gorsky. He had made their COVID nineteen vaccine program
the center of the largest pr campaign that Johnson and
Johnson had launched in forever they had, you know, they
had this podcast, they had videos, they had Sean Penn
(40:48):
working for them, They they had all kinds of pr
going on about this, and they must have known when
he was, when Alex was in the White House with
President Biden, that the whole thing was going to collapse
because FDA inspectors had already found that the facility where
(41:10):
they were manufacturing this had become deeply, deeply contaminated, and
that all nearly most of the doses that they had
promised to deliver in the following months were almost immediately
deep sext because they were contaminated. And yet they continued
(41:31):
to get the PR benefit up until the last second.
Speaker 1 (41:37):
And then it doesn't even they don't even cut it off.
Speaker 2 (41:39):
Really, they end the program quietly in twenty twenty three, right.
Speaker 1 (41:44):
I mean that to me was the most shocking part.
Speaker 2 (41:46):
But you're hearing like little rumblings of there was some
mold found at the facility. It might not be the
cleanest facility. Maybe some doses were mixed together with a
different brand and these are contaminated and you can't actually
ship these out. And then it's like, oh, we're finding
out that women, some women have died. Because the women
have died, we're going to put a pause on it.
But the pause doesn't even last very long. And they're like, oh,
(42:09):
this is just it's so hard to pause it because
we've got to get it into all the college students.
Speaker 1 (42:13):
It's one it's one shot.
Speaker 2 (42:15):
It's so much easier. We've got to do it. And
there and there's this inherent trust in Johnson and Johnson,
and the American public has this trust for Johnson and Johnson,
and that to me was the.
Speaker 1 (42:26):
Pinnacle of all of this.
Speaker 2 (42:28):
And I'm reading this book and honestly, I will tell
people read this. I think you're right, get it right away.
It comes out what next week, right the.
Speaker 3 (42:36):
Eighth it does. Yeah. Cool.
Speaker 2 (42:38):
So it's called No More Tears, The Dark Secrets of
Johnson and Johnson, and we'll we'll put it up there
so people can see it. But I think you have
to read this because it will change the way you
view everything. I mean, even from we didn't get into
the breast plant and plants and the implant illness.
Speaker 5 (42:56):
The breast and plant illness.
Speaker 1 (42:59):
There's so much.
Speaker 2 (43:00):
And that shocked me because when I had after when
I had reconstructive surgery, they were like, well, we've got
this new breast implant and it's this tear drop shape
and it's like it's kind of rough and it stays
in place and you're going to really love it. And
this is what they put inside of me. And a
year later, I start reading that this causes lymphoma, right,
and nobody calls me. Nobody calls me and says, you've
(43:23):
got this cancer. You just got over cancer. You've got
a little device inside your body that's going to cause
cancer again. Nobody calls me. I call Johns Hopkins and
I say, hey, what do you know about this? And
they said, yeah, anybody who's calling us to ask us
about it, we're telling them to get them removed immediately.
Speaker 1 (43:40):
And I did.
Speaker 2 (43:41):
I went and immediately had them removed. But nobody called
me to tell me you have something inside of you
that will cause you to get cancer again.
Speaker 1 (43:50):
It's shocking to me.
Speaker 3 (43:52):
It's a scandal that the medical device industry and regulators
FDA has never required that there be medical device registries
so that you know, we know what kind of medical
devices people get, what then what health consequences they have. Subsequently,
(44:12):
it's been sort of talked about other countries have these
kind of registries. But basically, quietly, the industry has been
opposing it forever. And you know, one of the real
as you know, Tutor, there's women have complained about the
health consequences of breast implants for thirty and four years,
(44:34):
and for all of that time, the industry denied that
there was anything. The FDA asked the industry throughout this
period of time, well, okay, we'll do a study, you know,
follow these women for ten years. And the industry always promised, yep,
we're going to do that, but sure, and then never
did and well it was too hard, we couldn't. Okay,
(44:57):
we're starting another study. The results of that were never
shown like it just you know, we could have found
this information out twenty years ago, and the industry just
basically filibustered throughout that period of time because they didn't
(45:18):
want to know.
Speaker 1 (45:19):
Why would you want to track your mistakes exactly?
Speaker 3 (45:23):
And you know, one of the things I talk about
in the book is that the FDA is terrible at
tracking how drugs and devices operate once they're approved. And
I suggest in the book that we follow what we
do in aircraft. Right, We've got the FAA that approves aircrafts,
(45:43):
and then when there's a crash, we get the NTSB
in there that's independent, that doesn't have this conflict because
they approve the airplane to start with. And I think
that's the problem with FDA. FDA is, first of all,
not only all of their jobs depend upon the industry
and the payments the industry make for them, but also
(46:06):
the medical officers are committed to these products that they approved,
and they don't really want to hear that they're not
working out as well as they thought or hoped. And
so I think there needs to be actually a separate
agency that tracks the safety of medical devices and drugs
once they have been approved, that doesn't have this fundamental
(46:31):
intellectual conflict of how they are invested in this project
product because they approved it.
Speaker 2 (46:38):
I agree. I mean, do these drugs make people violent?
Do these implants make people sick? Do these hips cause problems?
I mean all of these things.
Speaker 1 (46:48):
Do these drugs actually accelerate cancer? All of these things?
And the crazy part about it, I'll just end on this.
Speaker 2 (46:55):
The crazy part about it is that you have to
have a second agency to look at what is happening
because the companies are hiding it.
Speaker 1 (47:05):
They actually know.
Speaker 3 (47:07):
All right. In case after case after case that is true, Tutor.
Speaker 1 (47:14):
Is shocking, So get the book again.
Speaker 2 (47:16):
It's No More Tears, The Dark Secrets of Johnson and
Johnson Gardner. Harris, thank you so much for coming on
and talking to us about this today. It's been eye
opening and I really hope that with Secretary Kennedy things will.
Speaker 3 (47:29):
Change, all right. Take care, Tutor, thanks for having.
Speaker 2 (47:32):
Me absolutely, and thank you all for joining us on
the Tutor Dixon Podcast. Check out the podcast at the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever.
Speaker 1 (47:40):
You get your podcasts and join us next time. Have
a blessing.
Host
Tudor Dixon
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