Navajo Code Talkers & Louis Braille

Two smarties try to crack the code on who knows more about WWII heroes, The Navajo Code Talkers, and the creator of Braille, Louis Braille!

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, be you ready for today's episode? Uh? Okay, you're
using Morse code to answer me? Right, but be we're
talking about Louis Braille, the creator of Braille, and the
World War Two heroes, the Navajo code talkers. Sure, both
of them used codes and translated language from one form
to another, but neither of those codes used tapping. Okay,

(00:24):
all right, that's too complicated to tap out. I was saying, yes,
but if I bring up Morse code, it means I
get to show off my tap dancing skills. Were you
planning to do the whole episode like that? Yes? Or
should I say okay? Now you've just collapsed into are

(00:44):
rolling around on the floor. Yeah, I've switched genres and
am now doing interpretive dance. There's a lot less cardio involved.
Huh boy, Eric, please play the theme song before she
gets her second wins. Know about the grates for this story.
The game is on, Get some men and Jane buckle up.

(01:07):
You bring cousin's side to play whose podcast because it's
standard play books. Who List Live from Tom galand or
so called so Cow Los Angeles? Welcome to Who Was?
The history quiz show that gives contestants the chance to
win Mecca prizes and podcast glory. I'm your announcer and

(01:29):
co host from Coast to Coast be and here's your host,
the man who majored in Study Hall. It's Elliott Klin.
Thank you be and welcome everyone to the Who Was Podcast.
The show is like Jeopardy, only with surprise guests, silly games,
and an in house tanning bid. The tenth visit is free.

(01:50):
Our contestants were sent who Was books about two great
figures from history. Now they're here to show off their
knowledge and the hopes of winning fantastic prizes prizes expos.
Today we're learning about Louis Braille and the Navajo co talkers,
people who change the world with their modes of communication.
But before we meet them, let's meet our contestants. First up,

(02:12):
we've got Page Page. Will you please introduce yourself. Hi,
my name Page. A fun fact about me is I'm
actually a really good goalkeeper. You're actually a really good goalkeeper.
That is amazing. Now, I have been watching UM the
angel City UH soccer team here in Los Angeles, and
our goalkeeper is incredible. She's my favorite player on the team.

(02:37):
What is your favorite thing to do as goalkeeper probably plainly. Yeah. Yeah,
that's such a big fun thing to do. That's awesome.
It's such a huge responsibility to keep the goal and
take care of it and make sure that it's a
con condition. You gotta take it home after every game.
You gotta remember to bring it with you with the
next game. Keeping a goal is a big job. I

(02:58):
really admire that you're able to pull it off. Page.
Do you have a personalized set of gloves that you
wear as goalkeeper yet? I'm actually okay, alright, cool, Well,
thank you so much for joining us today. And with
us today we also have Lilianna. Liliana, please introduce yourself
him Lilianna. And one fun fact about me is once

(03:22):
I read a for Unsure ninety two page book in
one day. In one day. That's got to be a
record at some kind. What was what was the book?
What was the day? Like? Tell us everything? I've gotta know. Um, Well,
ID come back from camp because I had a high
fever and I was reading Keeper Lost Cities and I

(03:46):
just had nothing to do do, so I just read it. Yeah. Yeah,
I'm impressed and inspired by how you took what could
have been a catastrophe and used it to fuel you
to probably break a world record. I don't know for sure,
guessing yeah, amazing. Well, thank you both so much for
being here today. Yes, and thank you to Eric, our musician,

(04:07):
for providing that lovely Meet the Contestants music and all
of the music on the show today. So that's who
is Now Let's find out who was Louis Braille with
four fast facts. Louis Braille was born in eighteen o
nine and died in eighteen fifty two. Louis Braille lost
his eyesight at the age of three after an accident
in his father's workshop. At just fifteen years old, Louis

(04:30):
Braile developed a system of reading and writing for people
who are blind that would eventually be known as Braille.
Braille is still in use today. Braile is a system
of reading and writing that uses a series of six
raised dots in place of written letters. People read the
text with their fingers. So it's amazing to me that

(04:52):
Louis Braille invented this whole system of writing when he
was just a kid, basically, and it made me wonder,
have either of you ever in invented anything? Lileana, have
you invented anything you were sick for a while. Did
you did you invent something while you were invent um?
I don't think I did. All right, you have to
go Yeah, we'll have to go back in double check.
But but Lilian says she doesn't think she did. Cool,

(05:13):
all right, what about you, page, Oh, I don't think
I have. Well, there's still time, There's still lots of
time to invent something. I have to admit. I've never
invented anything either, except for excuses about why I didn't
take the garbage job. And I'm also curious, has have
either of our contestants Have you ever seen brail? Or
do you know anybody who uses brail to read and write?

(05:34):
I see it a lot. They haven't have fact presses,
so I see it a lot. Yet that makes sense.
You see it on a lot of signs outside of
in buildings, outside of doors, in schools especially. Yeah, that's true. Yeah,
So listeners, if you never noticed it before, take a
look next time. You're maybe at your own school, and

(05:55):
the sign, if there's a little bumps on the bottom
of it, that's brail. That's how someone who can't see
you can read the sign without a moment left to lose.
Let's go to our first game, which is called Couplet one.
It's a couplet. It's a couplet. In this game, we
have a rhyming couplet or two line poem. That's what

(06:16):
a couple of means with the final word missing. Fill
in the blank with the correct rhyming word to get
it right. For example, if we gave you the couplet.
The announcer for this show is not me. It's the
most talented person I know. And the answer, of course
is B because B rhymes with me, and I'm also
the most talented person Elliott knows, and Jane is the

(06:36):
most talented person I know. Okay, well, that didn't turn
out the way I thought it would. Because this is
our first game, each question is worth one point each
take it away. Be all right, Page, here is your couplet.
You might think Louis was from Paris at a glance,
but he was born in Coupe Gray, a small town
in the country of Science. That's right, The answer is France.

(07:00):
Louis was born in this small farming village into a
family of leather workers. After an accident made him blind,
he learned to read the alphabet when his father tapped
nails in the shape of letters, and Louis memorized the
feel of their shapes. A local priest was impressed with
louise intellect convinced the wealthiest man in the village to
help Louis get a scholarship to the school for the
blind in Paris. Okay, and our next question is for Liliana.

(07:23):
All right, Liliana, here is your couplets. They may have
helped kids without vision, but louise new school was originally
constructed as a That's right, the answer is prison. Louis
attended the Paris Royal Institute for Blind Youth in eighteen nineteen.
It was the first special school for the blind in

(07:43):
the world, but living conditions inside the school were poor.
Many of the students who lived and went to school
their contracted infections and illness. They said the stairs were
worm eating worms had eaten the stairs. Although authorities at
the school made appeals to the government, the school was
not given a new building for nearly thirty years. Okay,
the next couplet is for page page. Here is your couplet.

(08:07):
Many fellow students thought that Louie's new code was grand,
but the director of their school said it wasn't allowed.
It was that's right. The answer is banned. It's hard
to believe now that when Louis first came up with
his code, the head of the school forbade it in
the classroom and locked away books that were written in Braille.

(08:27):
The students used brail in secret and found ways to
write it using forks, knitting needles, and nails. One boy wrote,
we had to learn the alphabet and secrets, and when
we were caught using it, we were punished. Okay, The
next couplet is for Liliana. Liliana, don't worry if you
get it right or wrong. There's no punishment here. We
are not the Paris School for the blind in that's right.

(08:48):
No worm eaten stairs here, as far as I know. Yeah, alright, Lilyana,
here's your couplet. Though Louis Braille may now be gone,
you can see his tombstone next to other French here
rows at the law. No, I'm sorry, it's actually a
placed without a law in there. The answer is the Pantheon.

(09:08):
The Pantheon is a building where France's most honored people
are buried. At the time of his death, the French
government was still clinging to the old system of using
embossed letters for people who are blind, but two years
later Louise method replaced the embossed letter method as France's
official system of writing for the blind, and his remains
removed from Coupray to the Pantheon in nineteen fifty two,
joining such luminaries as the philosopher Voltaire, the Three Musketeers,

(09:32):
author Alexander Duma and fellow who was subject Mary Currie.
And that's the end of the first games. It's a
couple of and we've got a couple let of great
contestants here today. What a good first round. Before we
go to the break, we'll go over to someone who

(09:53):
one day being the Who Was? Pantheon producer Jane with
the first round scores, Thank you Elliot. Current Lee Louiana
has one point and pages ahead with two. Thank you Jane.
It's still a very close game. And we'll be back
with our next round after this short break. Eric, please
play us out with some worm eaten stairs music. Please,

(10:16):
at least they're gotting their steps in. Welcome back to
the Who Was? Podcast. Today we're learning who was Louis
Braille and who worked the Navajo po talkers. Now back
to your host, Elliott Kalin, thank you be. Before we
get back to the game, let's get to know more
about the Navajo code talkers with four fast facts. The

(10:42):
Navajo code talkers were a special communications unit of the U. S.
Marines in World War Two from nine two to the
Navajo called themselves DNA. In eighteen sixty eight, after decades
of fighting and hundreds of Navajo lives lost on government
forced long walks from their homes to live on reservations,
the Navajo signed a treaty to regain their homeland. The

(11:05):
code talkers created a system that used the Navajo language
to send coded radio message across enemy lines. The German
and Japanese armies were never able to crack their code.
So you were wondering all this talk about codes and
special languages. Do you, either of you have like a

(11:25):
special code or language that you used to talk to
someone special to you, either a friend or a sibling.
Do you have a twin that you speak a twin
language in not really but sometimes that you end up
speaking in French? You back, oh my, do you speak
French fluently? Sometimes? Uh? Leleana? What about you? Do you

(11:47):
have any special languages that you share with anybody. Um no,
but some kids in my class last year they created
a language. It was like saying weird thing. It was
like a bunch of different letters mixed up and the
teacher never know. Really, all right, what an awesome code.

(12:10):
If the teacher never found out what they're saying, that
means their code worked. Yeah, that's a that's a good code. Hey, B,
I've got a question. Speaking of codes and special languages,
do you know what your name would be according to
the Navajo code talkers? Shush? Okay, rude, I can't shush.
It's my job to talk. No, not shush, shush. That
would be my name based on the system the code

(12:32):
talkers came up with because they use common Navajo words
to stand in for English letters. So if you wanted
to quickly say my name like the letter B, you'd
say shush, which is actually the Navajo word for bear,
be bear gurb sting. Wait, I'm receiving this urgent coded message.
We got to get to our next game. It's called

(12:53):
Backpack from the Past from the Best Baby, What a
groovy game. I have a backpack contained some personal objects
from the Navajo code talkers B and I are going
to describe those objects for our contestants and the listeners
at home. And contestants, you pick the best of the
multiple choice answers that reveals the significance of the object.

(13:15):
And since this is our second game, each question is
worth two points. Go for it. Be alright, Lilyana, this
first object is for you. Oh wow, I found a
permission slip. It reads Dean Wilson does not have permission
to join the Marines, and it's signed by his parents.
Why is this in the backpack? Is it because a

(13:36):
code talker Dean Wilson took a slip of paper denying
permission to join the Marines out of his file? Or B,
I grabbed the wrong bag and this is actually Dean
Wilson's trash bag. Hey, that's right. The answer is a
Dean Wilson was too young to join the Marines on
his own. He saw a slip of paper in his
file at the recruiter's office that didn't grant him permission,

(13:58):
and he took it out so that he could join.
More than two hundred Navajo men showed up when the U. S.
Marines called for volunteers who spoke Navajo and English. They
were ready to help the war effort, even after more
than a hundred and fifty years of mistreatment of Native
Americans by the US government. And the next object is
for you, page page. It looks like a water canister
and it's full of water, So I guess it was

(14:19):
a water canister. What does this have to do with
the Navajo code talkers? Is it a the water canister
from their desert training or b because part of their
method was to send notes in invisible ink that could
only be seen after you splashed water on it. That's right.
The answer is a. Once the recruits got to marine camp,
there was a lot of training. Many things were new

(14:41):
to the soldiers, but other things my card work, marksmanship,
and desert survival were not. The recruits were instructed to
survive in the desert with just one water canister. The
Navajo recruits new to get water from a cactus and
came back with a full water canister when they graduated
the Navajo plat tune, we're called one of the most

(15:01):
outstanding that had graduated from basic training. Okay, Lilyana, this
next object is for you. Oh wow, it's a grid
in one column. It has letters and the next column
has Navajo words, and the last column has words in
English such as owl, weasel, and ice. Is this a
a new kind of Sudoku puzzle called rudoku? Or the

(15:25):
cipher for the Navajo letter code B? That's correct. The
answer is be. A cipher is a guide for understanding codes.
The twenty nine Navajo Marines were tasked with creating a
cipher for a code that troops could use during battles.
The code talkers created this code that used Navajo words
to represent English letters, which spelled out words. As the
code developed, other shorthand phrases were added. For example, the

(15:47):
code talkers used the Navajo word for tortoise to stand
in for the English word tank. Okay, page, This next
one is for you, okay. Wow. It's a pouch and
inside it there's a rock, some pollen, and an arrowhead.
Look at this represent a party favor bag from a
real cool party. Geraldine went to or be medicine bags

(16:11):
the Navajo soldiers carried with them. The answer is b.
Many Navajo soldiers had medicine bags that contain not something
like thailand all or vitamins, but sacred objects given to
them by their families. They wore them around their neck
to protect them and keep them connected to their home life.
The Navajo community also helps the code talkers after the

(16:31):
war with special spiritual Navajo ceremonies called the Enemy Way,
where people gathered to sing, chant and pray to help
drive away the spirits of the battlefield. And that's the
end of that game. From the Best, Baby, Great round, everybody.

(16:52):
You to both really cracked the code of those questions. Now,
let's transmit a message over to producer Jane. Producer Jane,
here's the message. It reads, what are the scores? I
got your message on it, and I'm going to tell
you the scores are Movie on the House five and
Paige ahead by one with six. Well, truly a mail

(17:13):
biter of a game. It is, oh, a mail biter. Oh, Elliott,
there you go, always talking in code. Well that's not
a code, it's a metaphor. You know what a metaphor is, right,
b Yeah, it's like a portmanteau of assimile and an adverb.
Oh boy, we'll have to unpack that later because right
now we have a very special guest here. Everyone, please
welcome Navajo code talker William Dean Wilson. Hello, thanks to

(17:37):
the who is that? Forgetting me here? Who was that? You?
Wander in the best? That app is a lot lighter
than the radio as I carried in service, that's for sure,
Be Elliott. I know we've got a lot to cover,

(17:58):
but it must ask how did you get aloha? That
translates in English to elephant in the studio? Hey, Geraldine,
why don't you tell him yourself? Yeah? Okay? And then
what happened? That's so right? You were wearing that, Elliott?

(18:19):
What are they saying? I have no idea. I find
the best thing to do when Be and Geraldine start
talking is just figure out the vibe and not alat Yeah.
And then I was like, you're hired. We have fun
on this show. So, Mr Wilson, you joined the Marines
when you were just sixteen years old? Yes, even though

(18:40):
I told him I was eighteen. Oh, I get it.
Were you speaking in a code and eighteen really meant sixteen? Yes?
I've by code? You mean fibbing. I know it's not
right till lie. When I was young and eager for adventure,
it was kind of like a boy with a new toy.
Everything was new. Mr Wilson, could you tell us any

(19:02):
of the messages you sent back when you were serving
with the Marines? That's confidential information. But I can tell
you that we ended each dialogue with the phrase that
translates to give back the ram. It was our way
of acknowledging that the conversation was over. Well, I actually
have some code of my own that I wonder if

(19:23):
you'd be able to decipher. I've been working on it
for a while, so it's pretty tough to crack. The
twenty eight other code talkers and I painstakingly created code
under intense pressure over a period of many months. I
know how difficult creating code can be. I'd love to
hear what you came up with. Okay, here goes code

(19:44):
number one. Be how many codes did you create? That's
confidential information? Or should I say at days on fidential
k information? A. You're speaking pig Latin there, but in
the beginning of the word at the end, correct code
craft Okay, code number two. I'm so thrilled you figured

(20:07):
it out so quickly. Thrilled, but you're actually mad. Is
it opposite day or something? Okay too? For two? Opposite
day actually a code? Hell yeah, just pick your own
the Liman, not Alonge. And now for code three, Simon says,
put your hand on your nose. Simon says, jump up

(20:29):
and down. Simon says, sing carmina burana, oh for tuna.
Wait wait, wait, this code is. Simon says, I was wrong. No,
you're totally right. It is. Simon says, but Simon didn't
say you could say. Simon says, then to decipher some

(20:51):
pretty strange messages in my day, But be the message
is coming from You've got to be the strangest. You're welcome,
I think she need. Thank you for stopping by and
seeing us today, Mr William Dean Wilson, my pleasure, Thanks
to you all, and thanks again. Who was app give
back the ram? Who? It's time we take a break,

(21:15):
unless you've got another code to show us. Be No,
I really don't. Okay, that's just sarcasm, otherwise known as
code forty seven, now code forty eight because where you
burped everything? Oh boy, Eric, play us some give back
the ram music? Please? It was a loner, Sally, Who

(21:37):
was there? Marie? You may remember me from winning multiple
Nobel prizes, or perhaps from my episode of the Who
Was Podcast where I played myself I wanted to take
a moment to read one of my favorite reviews about
the Who Was Podcast. This is from Shaken Bay and
it reads loved the Me and my little sister love

(22:01):
this show more. Please. Our faith is Arietman. If you
want to hear your review read on the app, make
sure to subscribe, like and review to the US podcast
in the I Heard Radio up or wherever you give
your podcasts revoir or should Let's Day abio. Welcome back

(22:24):
to the Who Was Podcast. Today we're learning all about
awesome forms of communication with who was Louis Braille and
who were the Never Who Coo Talkers? And now back
to your host, Elliott Halin. Thanks Be. We've got one
last game to get to and it's this one converge
of greatness. In this multiple choice game, Be will read

(22:53):
questions where our two historical figures overlap or converge. And
because this is our third game, each question is worth
three huge points. Picked the best option as your answer page.
The first question is for you, B. You know what
to do. Both Louis and the Code Talkers left home
for a very specific education. As we mentioned, conditions at

(23:13):
Louis school were very bad. Louis and many other students
even contracted this condition from living there a cold feet,
which is why Louie never married. B Bad taste in
interior decorating or C tuberculosis. See you got it. The
answer is C. For a minute, I thought you said B,

(23:34):
and I was like, I think his taste interior decorating
was that bad? But the answer is C. Tuberculosis or
t B is a sickness that affects your breathing and
to be spread very quickly when people live in close quarters.
TV was the leading cause of death in industrialized countries
during the nineteenth and early twenty centuries. It affected Louis
and many of his fellow students. In fact, Louis died
at the young age of forty three from complications from TB.

(23:57):
Okay next question. This next question is for Liliana. Liliana,
both Braile and Navajo were at one point used in secret.
Brail was banned by the head of Louis school. But
why would Navajo speakers keep their language secret? Was it
a the Navajo co talkers wanted to practice keeping secrets.

(24:18):
B schools that many American Indians were sent to would
only speak and teach in English or see. Contrary to
the popular rhyme, secret secrets are tons of fun and
secret secrets hurt no one B. That's right. The answer
is B. For most of American history, the US government
was hostile to Native American tribes. In order to break

(24:41):
down Native cultures, they made many Indigenous children leave their
homes and go to schools where they had to speak English.
Their mouths were washed out with soap when they spoke
their own language. In an incredible twist of history, the
Navajo language America tried to erase ended up helping us
when we need it at most. In two thousand two,
code talker Chester Nez under to the irony of his
military service. He said, all those years being told not

(25:03):
to speak Navajo, then to turn around and ask us
for help with that same language, it still kind of
bothers me. And for the record, kids just want you know,
secrets are not fun and can on occasion hurt someone.
Unless that secret is what's going to happen on the
next episode of Game of Thrones. That's called no spoilers,
and I totally stand by keeping that a secret. And
on to the next question. For page we've talked about

(25:26):
how quickly. The Navajo code talkers could translate messages, but students,
wanting to prove how effective brail was, also translated messages quickly,
so quickly, in fact, that a people did not believe
them and made them do it again. Be they set
againness world record for the fastest translation. Or see it

(25:47):
was so fast the paper they were reading from burst
into flames. Hey, that's right. The answer is a. Students
gave a demonstration of how quickly they could write and brail.
One student left the room and an audience member at
a poem allowed, which was immediately translated into braille. The
student who had left the room came back and used
their fingers on the grill and spoke the perfectly translated poem.

(26:09):
One man in the audience didn't believe them. He made
the students translate a theater ticket from his pocket, which
they also transcribed and rail aloud perfectly. We'd like to
think it was a ticket for the egg on my
Face show, because that guy Shorehead egg on his face,
or as he would have said in France, thank you.
I guess I don't I should have asked. Paige Page
would have known, but only when she's angry. That's egg

(26:31):
without a face. So I hope my egg doesn't have
a face. I don't want to eat an egg with
a face on it. Okay, The next and final question,
as I try to get the image of an egg
with a face out of my mind, this nest question
is for Liliana. Okay, all right, Liliana. Both Louis Braille
and the Nemajo co talkers had to wait a long
time for recognition of their good work. For Braille, it

(26:52):
took nearly a hundred years, and the truth behind the
co talkers was not mentioned until twenty three years after
their service. They weren't given Congressional medals of honor until
two thousand one, which US president awarded them those medals.
Was it a Barack Obama B. George W. Bush or C.

(27:14):
Millard Fillmore B. That's right. The answer is be. Fearing
they would need to use the code again, the U.
S Military kept the code talkers talk secret until nineteen
sixty eight. The code talkers they weren't even allowed to
talk about what they did in the military for over
twenty years. Then in two thousand one or twenty nine,
original code talkers were given Congressional Medals of honor from

(27:34):
President George W. Bush. He declared, there's quote a story
all Americans can celebrate and remember. In two August fourteen
was named National Code Talkers Day. I can't wait to celebrate.
I've already got on my code Talker decorations and my
code Talkers snacks. It's going to be fantastic. And that's
the end of the round. That sound means we're at

(28:04):
the end of the game and the end of the
show while we wait for Jane to tell you the
points I'd love to hear from both of our contestants. Leana,
what surprised you about either Louis Braille or the Navajo
code Talkers? I think I was surprised that Louis Brown
wasn't lying that person. He lost his sight when he

(28:24):
was three years old, and it was an accident that
happened to one of his eyes, and then an infection
spread and he lost vision in both It really makes
you wonder what a three year old was doing wandering
around in a leather working workshop. One has to hold there. Yeah,
and how about you, Page, was there anything that surprised
you about either of our subjects? Well, actually, I think
never the Navajo voice proctors. They surprised me a lot.

(28:47):
I didn't even know they existed. Isn't it amazing when
you learn a story from history and you're like, what
that happened? How did you feel when you found out
that the Navajo code talkers, that they had lived these lives,
that they were able to turn their language into an
unbreakable code. How did you feel about that? That was
pretty cool? Actually, I think that sums it up. It's
pretty cool. It's a good way to describe it. Yeah,

(29:07):
and so you went so when you read it, you
didn't get mad and start yelling in French. No, Oh,
that's good. That's good. Okay, thank you both. That was fantastic.
Now for the big moment, Jane, please announce our winner,
hell Yett, I'm going to give out the winner in code.
Are you ready? Yes? Yes? Please? Page at twelve points,

(29:30):
Lily Hannah at eleven Can you figure it out? But
that that was the code, that's the code? Okay. I
think I think that means Pages are winner today. Correct,
you got it? Oh, you cracked the phone. I was
almost there. Congratulation Page and Leon. You played a great game,
a super close ending. I'd call it a photo finish. Okay, page,

(29:50):
you have ten seconds for shoutouts. Who do you want
to thank for getting you to the winner's circle? Uh,
it's Marcia and MS Dollar and my mom and dad especially.
That's really great. That's really nice, and I'm sure your
mom and dad will appreciate it. Our winner and their
library of choice are going to be receiving a selection
of Who Was books, And I'm going to give my
own shout out to intern Zach, to Jane, to Eric

(30:12):
and to be and a big thank you to both
of our contestants for playing a really fantastic game. You
both did great. And of course who should I think
the most? It could only be one person, you, the
listener listening to this right now. Thank you for enjoying
our show. Now join us next time when we learn
about two more amazing figures from history. Until then, this

(30:33):
is Elliott tord Is tank Klin saying We're history. Good Bye.
Everybody got a question for any of our famous figures?
Or do you want to be a contestant? Send us
a voice memo at the Who Was Podcast at gmail
dot com it or you might just end up on
the show. Who Was Podcast is produced by Radio Point

(30:54):
I Heart Media and Penguin Workshop, and is based on
the best selling who h Q series published by Penguin.
This show is hosted by Elliott Caylin with co host
Megan O'Neill as b It also stars Jane Baker as
Jane and Eric Shackney as Eric. Executive producers are Richard Corson,
Alex Bach, Elliott Kylin, Megan O'Neil, Daniel Powell, and Houston Snyder.

(31:17):
Our executive producer for Penguin Workshop is Francesco Sadita, but
our executive producer for iHeart Media is Lindsay Hoffman. This
episode was written by Megan O'Neil, Elliott Kylin and Devin Coleman.
Our producers are Bernie Kaminsky and Taylor Kawalski. Our talent
producer is Jane Baker. Our theme song and our music
are all composed and performed by Eric Shackney. We are
edited and mixed by Bree Matan and Kate Moldenhower. They're

(31:40):
recorded by Alison Worth. And there's special thanks I'd like
to give to Zach Timpson, Charlotte Dianda, Daniel Goodman, Michael
Lewis Howard and of course you the listener wa. The
Who Was Podcast was recorded the I Heart Studios in
Los Angeles, California. Sound services were provided by Great City
Posts Podcast. Chur on The Fable was as his host