February 16, 2024 • 36 mins
Earlier this week, we shed some light on the experience of dating as a transgender woman, and today we want to delve a little bit more into that conversation, this time from the lens of certified sex therapist Tia Evans. Tia has a private practice in which she holds space for people from all cultures and backgrounds. She holds a Master of Social Work from Fayetteville State University, a Master of Education in Human Sexuality from Widener University, and is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker in the State of North Carolina.
During our conversation, we explored ways for a transgender person to identify signs of safety in a potential friend or partner, how to establish boundaries around intimacy with a new partner, and how cisgender individuals can best support their transgender partners.
About the Podcast
The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy Harden Bradford, a
licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or to
(00:32):
find a therapist in your area, visit our website at
Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you love
listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not
meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a
licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much for
(00:57):
joining me for a special bonus episode of the Therapy
for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our conversation
after a worry from our sponsors. Earlier this week, we
shed some light on the experience of dating as a
transgender woman, and today we want to delve a little
(01:20):
deeper into that conversation, this time from the lens of
certified sex therapist Tia Evans. Tia has a private practice
in which she holds space for people from all cultures
and backgrounds. She holds a Master of Social Work from
Fayeteville State University, a Master of education in Human Sexuality
from Widner University and is a licensed clinical social worker
(01:42):
in the state of North Carolina. During our conversation, we
explored ways for a transgender person to identify signs of
safety and a potential friend or partner, how to establish
boundaries around intimacy with a new partner, and how cisgender
individuals can best support their transgender place partners. If something
resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share with
(02:05):
us on social media using the hashtag TVG in session
or join us over in the sister Circle to talk
more about the episode. You can join us at Community
dot Therapy from blackgirls dot com. Here's our conversation. Thank
you so much for joining us today, Tire, of course,
thank you for having me. Absolutely absolutely so. You are
(02:28):
a licensed clinical social worker and a kink friendly sex therapist.
Can you talk to us a little bit about what
you do in the communities you serve?
Speaker 2 (02:37):
So my role is people come to me when they
have issues in the relationships and their sex lives, questions
about a gender, sexuality, all that fun.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Stuff, got it? Got it? And what does it mean
to be kink friendly?
Speaker 2 (02:51):
That means that I'm pretty well versed in things in
the kink community. So like BDSM, anything that's unconventional I
have a pretty good knowledge base of. And so I
come into a place of the non judgmental. You can
come ask your questions, you can ask your opinions, and
we can run just hash things out that they may
not feel comfortable doing in regular therapy.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
And so in a large part of your caseload and
a lot of the work you do is also as
a part of the trans community.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Correct, Yes, a huge base.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Yes, So I think it's important for us when we
are having these kinds of conversations to make sure we
have good definitions and that people are kind of operating
from the same place. So I want to ask you
a couple of words to see if you can give
us a definition so that you know people have a
better understanding. So what are we talking about when we
say cis gender?
Speaker 2 (03:37):
So a cist gender person is a person that identifies
with the gender that they were assigned at birth.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Okay, and what about trans feminine?
Speaker 2 (03:46):
For somebody who identifies as transfeminine, that means that they
have been assigned one particular gender that may have been
assigned male as their gender. But they identify as female
or they identify as being more or into feminine based things.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
And what about trans masculine.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
So then that's going to be the opposite of that.
So that's a person who's tender, maybe a signed female
at birth, but they identify as male or they are
into masculine things or identify with things that are traditionally
labelled as a masculine.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
So, Tia, you know, I know so much of like
how we know about ourselves and how we are interested
in dating and our dating habits are shaped by like
our upbringing, right, And I know that for people in
the trans community, they're often being raised by CIS people.
So can you talk a little bit about how like
(04:39):
that lack of representation impacts identity and dating choices.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
So when people aren't used to seeing how they would
love to date or they are in clinent today being
represented let's stay in the media or even in their
own community, it makes them feel isolated or it makes
them feel like what they're doing is and people tend
to and if they're put into that box, they tend
to kind of shut down and maybe go into themselves
(05:07):
and they withdraw. You might see somebody end up being
very anxious or depressed, or just seemingly not connected to
society as a whole, maybe like even checked out.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
And you mentioned the media for a lot of people
who are in morginalized communities, if you don't see yourself
represented in your home or in your community, and you
will turn to media, right, So, TV, film, books, those
kinds of things. Can you talk a little bit about
the impact that you have seen on the trans community
from looking at depictions of trans life in the media.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
I think that when we see things that are in
a positive light, then you see more of a whilely
seeing my patients, more of happy, upbeat. But then when
you see things in the media that might show trends
people in a negative light, then I see them coming
with more of being down themselves or maybe even questioning
where they fit in society or in their own lives
and their own community. So I think it definitely ebbs
(06:01):
and flows with what you see on TV or on
the radio, with how people who are a part of
the community tend to reflect in the day to day.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
And to your earlier points. So, I recently had a
chance to watch the Disclosure documentary on Netflix. Have you
seen that I haven't seen it, Okay. So there was
a lot in the documentary just about not having trans
representation in the media, or if it was then it
was always this thing that was like looked upon negatively
or it was like a joke, right, Like a joke
(06:33):
was made out of trans people's lives, and that the
people in the documentary were talking about how that impacted
their identity and like their self concept until they grew
up and maybe met trans people in later life.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
I don't have to check that out. It sounds really good.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
Mm hmmmmm, Yeah, it definitely would be one. I think
you'd appreciate. The other thing that they talked about as
a part of the documentary was like having to unlearn
so much of like the negative stereotypes that they saw
about trans people in the media. Can you talk a
little bit about maybe what that has looked like with
your clients, Like what kinds of things have they had
to unlearned.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Believe it or not, some people who identify as trans
are in the community may have a bit of transphobia
themselves just because of what they've seen or what's been
spilled back into them. So part of what I do
is kind of unpack what they've learned, and we decipher
what is good to keep and what is not so
good to keep, and I really get in there and
(07:27):
discover what do they want to be, how do they
want to represent themselves? So what does it mean to
be authentic? And that's what comes across my desk a
lot is how do I live authentically when the world
doesn't want me to be present? And so part of
that is really just sitting into that and maybe just
defining what does it mean to be authentic? And how
do we persevere and look past the negativity? How do
(07:49):
we look past the stereotypes, and how do we get
people to be seen and heard as it deserved to
be seen and heard.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
Yeah, and I was gonna say, I would imagine that
your job has become that much harder in recent years,
right with all the additional like anti trans legislation that's
being passed. Can you talk a little bit about how
all of that has impacted your work and your clients.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
So I am in North Carolina and where's a lot
of negative trans bills floating around right now, and some
of the bigger ones are being targeted towards my little
trans people. So my under eighteen people. And so that's
where we see a lot of not just the patience,
but the parents too try and decide or what we're
gonna do because a lot of people are option to move.
(08:32):
That's the biggest impact that's happening right now. Within this day,
there's people making exit plans to leave the state, to
seek refuge and places that are safer or places that
are more welcoming. It's devastating.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
Yeah, So when you talk about like sitting with people
and helping them to kind of appreciate authentically who they are,
what does that look like? What kinds of conversations are
you having or exercises that might help with some of that.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
So I asked them to define who they are. If
they have to describe themselves to anybody, how will they
describe themselves? And then we'll go into well how does
that look? How do you represent that adjective with the physical?
How do you want to present? How do you want
to look? What do you want to give to the world.
That's pretty much how we start, and then I send
(09:17):
them home, Well, this is what you need to work on.
Here is how you can present and the way you
want to present. And let's see what feels good for you,
and let's see what doesn't feel good for you, and
let's reshape it if it doesn't.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
Tea earlier, you mentioned that even people in the trans
community themselves will sometimes experience transphobia, and that feels similar
to you. Even black people experiencing anti blackness right and
are having anti black kinds of thoughts. So what kinds
of things do you do to help them unpack like
some of their internalized transphobia.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
So I normalize people being able to present the way
they want to present. So sometimes you see some trans
people talking about how I want to make sure that
I pass or what does it mean to be passable?
And what does it mean to be able to blend in?
And then there are some people in the community that
just are free to look and feel how they want
(10:08):
to feel, and that may not be mainstream, that may
not be the norm, so to speak. And so I
work with patients to normalize. You look how you want
to look, You represent how you want to represent, and
that doesn't make you any more or less of how
you want to be seen or viewed. And how you
look doesn't affect how the next person looks, and so
less normalize your own style, your own authenticity, your own esthetic.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
Can you talk to you about any additional kinds of
struggles that you see with maybe some of your black
trans clients. Are there additional kinds of conversations, additional things
to kind of work through as being a part of
the black community.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Oh? Absolutely. The biggest thing I see is issues with
the church and their spirituality and religion that intersects heavy.
Especially a lot of the people who are in the
trans community that come from a very heavily spiritual Christian
base will often be conflicted on well, this is what
my religion says, but this is how I feel. Or
I can't go home because my grandmother, who is a
(11:05):
deepness in church, or my father who's a pastor in
the church, doesn't want me around because of how I
look to them, and how the church might see my
parents not even meet, but how I see my parents.
So what it trickles down, that's what I see the
most within the black and brown communities is how their
religion crosses over into the identity.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
Thank you for sharing that tea, You know it makes
me think about there's obviously then some grief to I
would imagine process when maybe you have to let go
of some of those relationships, either as parents or with
a church. Can you talk a little bit about how
you might help somebody process.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
That so that might even look like maybe a mini funeral,
or what do you want to say to your family
that you may not be able to say? If you
want to write a letter, even if you send it
or not, what do you want that letter to say
as your goodbyes to whoever you have to let go,
If it's the or if it's religion as a whole,
what can you do to find peace with that within yourself?
(12:05):
And what does that mean for you to maybe get
your spiritual cut field in a different way. So we
look up ways to process letting go, but looking forward
to being able to be free. Is that sacrifice worth
the freedom? And if it is, then we move forward.
If it's not, well, what does that mean? How can
(12:26):
you find those little pieces of peace in the struggle.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Can you say more about the ceremony. I think that's
often a very powerful kind of imagery for people to do,
like these kind of funerals, or it kind of reminds
me of like an empty chair technique. Can you say
a little bit more about the ceremony, like would you
encourage them to invite other people to be a witness
to that? What does that look like?
Speaker 2 (12:47):
Only if they feel safe doing so. But usually it's
something that we might even do in session where the
person is maybe standing up and reading what their goodbyes
could look like to the couch, which is again the
empty chair method, or even just saying hey, this is
who I used to be. I am memorialized and who
(13:08):
I used to be, and I'm letting go of that
so that the new week can be birthed. So it
really is one of those they write out what they
want to say. If they want to bring in our
article of clothing or something that they want to leave behind,
they're welcome to do that. Just something that memorializes who
they were and maybe something to look forward to moving forward,
(13:31):
even if it's like a new tube of lipstick or
a new tie, just something to kind of complete the ceremony,
if you will.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
Thank you for that more from our conversation after the break. So,
you know, I think even within the LGBTQIE community there
(14:00):
has often been even further marginalization for trans people as
a part of that community and kind of being made
to feel invisible. Can you talk a little bit about
some of that backlash and supporting clients to find community
even within the community that they may be feeling pushed
out of.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
And I think the biggest part about that too is
some people in the community see the tea in the
acronym is more gender based versus sexuality based, and that's
where a lot of intersection looks or a lot of
them being ostracized looks like, oh, this is a tack
on our sexuality, but they're folks on their gender, so
(14:39):
they should stay over there, when really there's a lot
of people who are trans that are very much steal
lesbian or gay or participate in the acronym as well.
So letting them know that they still belong, normalizing that
your place is here. If you want to identify within
this culture, then you have every right to do so,
and nobody can take they're from you. I love to say,
(15:01):
who gonna check you in my sessions? Because really and truly,
who has the right to do that?
Speaker 1 (15:06):
Right right? I love that? And can you talk a
little bit about helping people in the trans community find
community for themselves, because I think if you can't be
a part of some of these larger communities. Sometimes that
means you have to create it for yourself. So can
you talk about supporting clients through that or with that?
Speaker 2 (15:23):
Absolutely? So what I do is I talk about, well,
what does your support system look like now, and how
many people aren't in supports who are also trans, and
what does that look like? Would you like more trans friends?
And we talk about ways to maybe find trans friends,
ways to if their city has an organization that's dedicated
(15:44):
to the trans community, I might direct them there, if
there's resources onlines or even Facebook groups that seem safe.
Just trying to encourage them to find their tribe and
what speaks to them. Because and then because everybody's not
going to accept everybody, and that's the unfortunate reality of
the world. So my job is to get back to
(16:04):
them and say, you find your people. Who do you
want your people to be? Let's find your people. Let
me help you find your people.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
We definitely talk about, you know, finding community and friendship
here at TVG a lot. Can you talk a little
bit about how people can assess whether somebody is actually
a safe person to be in their circle.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
It looks like asking specific questions, maybe not necessarily outing
themselves if they don't need to, but asking questions about
how they feel about even just the lgbt QIA community
as a whole. How do you feel about what's happening
in politics? Maybe, oh, have you seen this show? What's
your take on this show? Those little feeling questions to
(16:47):
put those feelers out without out themselves they don't have to,
that's where you start, and.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
I would imagine that's why, you know, finding like the
Facebook groups and different kinds of communities where like you
already know that there is some acceptance and hopefully affirmation,
maybe feel like a better place to start then, you know,
like random strangers. Oh correct, absolutely, yeah, yeah, but.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
More so you want us to do the filling out
in social media or insights that may be more public
and less provas. We want to be selective regardless, it's
easy to infiltrate these spaces sometimes. Yeah, that's a big
part of being safe too, is really knowing where you're
putting yourself out there and really being on your p's
(17:28):
and q's.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
You're saying that makes me think, you know, we talked
a little bit about like some of the additional challenges
that black people in the trans community have and we
know that some of the highest levels of violence happened
to black trans women. Is there any safety planning that
you do with clients or like bringing in additional agencies
or resources to help support clients in that area.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
I like to ask them what are they doing to
stay safe? Just straight up, Especially if I have people
who are trying to day or are new today, they
are wanting today, and I say, well, what's your exit plan?
What's happened if you meet this stranger and it comes
out in that moment and it gets a little heck
that what are you going to do? Talk about maybe
making sure that you're closer to the door versus the
(18:14):
other person. Just I don't want to say basic safety
book because really some things would just take for granted,
like watching your surroundings, looking around, checking license plates of Nebee,
just those little things.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Yeah, you know. And as you're talking about this, Tia,
I'm wondering how that impacts like intimacy, because you're already
going into these situations thinking like, Okay, what is my
safety plan going to be?
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Right?
Speaker 1 (18:38):
And I think most of us have to. I mean,
we should be thinking about that because you just never
know what it does feel like there's a particular kind
of burden for folks in the trans community. So can
you talk a little bit about how that might impact
intimacy or the ability to even settle into relationships when
you're kind of always thinking about safety planning.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
I think that it takes a little longer for some
just because the respector right and really making sure that
they feel safe to even divulge their gender identity. I
think that's a huge part of a huge part of
it is actually when do I have this conversation with
my partner or what does that conversation look like? And
so those are the kind of things that we work
(19:16):
through in session, where how do you want to disclose,
how do you want to operate if that person maybe
gets angry or that person might need more time to
think about what they want to do, and normalize and
give them space, to give their partner space because that
could be apprehensive too that weight and gain wait and
(19:38):
to see what the response is going to be and
kind of normalize them. Well, these are your options, and
what do these options look like if it falls to
A to B or the C category.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
So what kinds of guidelines are conversations? Do you typically
talk about with your clients around like when do you
disclose this information or when is it necessary?
Speaker 2 (19:59):
Well, that's a big question, just asking them when they
feel when it's necessary, because I can't be the judge
of that. But it goes case by case scenario. It's
usually around comfort level. How have you experienced this before?
Have you had an opportunity to disclose a gender before?
And what does that feel like? What are you gonna
do differently this time or if you've never done it before,
(20:20):
give me a sign that makes you feel safe, Tell
me something that's gonna make you feel safe enough to
disclose that or are you the type that you want
to disclose off the top And if you do, are
you willing to accept what happens or do you know
what could happen if you disclose off the top your
gender identity. So a lot of it is just planning
(20:42):
and overplanning and going through scenarios and role playing and
really hashing out the benefits and consequences of these particular
actions and then coming behind with the safety plan on
top of it. It's a lot of preparation in the
front end.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
Yeah, you know, And I'm wondering to ya if this
feels like a pie in the sky kind of questioning,
But it feels like we are asking people from this
marginalized group to do like all of this thinking, like
what kinds of conversations and things could we be having
as people who are not members of the trans community
so that this burden is not so heavy for people
in the trans community.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
I think it starts about just having conversations in general
and correcting people or correcting friends or peers if the
wrong pronouns are being used or this negative talk comes along.
Somebody has to be the change agent and say, hey,
it's not okay to talk about this community or talk
about this person in this way. Because we're all humans,
(21:40):
we have the right to live. And how is one
person's decision directly affecting you if that's not somebody that
you have in your traditional space and your space in general.
So just breaking down the stereotypes and checking people out
the door and being prepared to maybe lose some friends
or lose some loved ones behind it to be that
change agent.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
So you gave us some great information around trying to
assess whether somebody is trustworthy as a friend. Are there
additional kinds of questions or things that people should be
looking out for in terms of like being a potential
partner or somebody to date, in terms of whether they
are trustworthy.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
I think that kind of parallels. I think once you
get past the safetiness and a friend, it kind of
transpires into the next section. And especially at that point,
if they feel safe enough to disclose, maybe asking somebody
if they dated a trans person before and what that
looked like for them and how they felt about it,
and really seeing what somebody's current knowledge is within dating
(22:40):
in the community.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
So for trans people who maybe are feeling like some
societal pressure to disclose, right because you already said that's
up to the person's kind of individual comfort. So let's
say people are listening to our conversation now and they
are feeling like this pressure to disclose. What kinds of
things might you tell them, or what kinds of questions
might they want to ask themselves?
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Are you ready? Are you really ready to disclose or
you just feel like you need to just because? And
if it's just because, what's stopping you from waiting another
day or waiting the nextra week. For those who feel
that they are ready, that they do want to disclose, well,
what does it feel like? What are you feeling currently?
What's your reason for wanting to disclose? How do you
(23:21):
think you're going to feel after you do disclose? And
if you feel like disclosing, try it with a very
trusted friend first and go from there. If you already
have your tribe and you've already disclosed the people in
your tribe, do you need somebody there with you to
support you as you disclose? And if you do, that's
(23:42):
okay too. It's nothing wrong with having a support person
present with you when you need to have these difficult
conversations or conversations where you don't quite know how the
ending is going to be. And then also ask yourself, well,
once the cat's out the bag, I can't put the
cat back in the bag. So what is life going
to look like from me?
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Me?
Speaker 2 (24:00):
Or how do I want my life to look once
I have disclosed? It's a lot of soul searching.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Yeah, I would imagine too, like what kinds of support
is going to be there after I disclosed? Right? Like
what kinds of communities might I want to be able
to be a part of? More from our conversation after
the break, so it sounds like people are using therapy
(24:30):
for lots of different reasons. Especially you know in the
work that you're doing, what are some of the conversations
or situations that maybe have come up for people like
when they started dating, that they didn't even think about that.
Maybe you have tried to or helped a client work
through labels.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
I think labels are a big thing, especially if somebody
is navigating dating a person in the community that may
not have even been in the community when they first
started dating. As a common topic that I work with
see is well what does that mean for you? Now?
Am I now gay and my now a lesbian? What
does this mean for me? And I try to take
(25:07):
a step back and say, well, you don't have to
jump the gun so fast. You don't have to put
any label on yourself that you don't want to identify with.
What do you see as a partner, who do you
want as a partner? And what does dating for you
mean or look like? And as far as intimacy goes,
there's levels to it, right, So who says that you
(25:28):
have to do everything that you feel like should be done.
Just do what feels natural for you and let your
instincts take you there. I find a lot of people
in the community, they don't necessarily change their sexual identity, right,
So it looks like, well, how do you want to date?
Do you want to be a pursuer? Now? Do you
(25:50):
want to be pursued? What's your style or what do
you think your style is going to look like? If
you're trying to navigate the dating field as a new person,
how do you want to present yourself? How do you
want to be treated? What do you have to give
the world, and what do you want the world to
give you? As you're navigating dating, just really looking at
(26:13):
the who do you see as a potential partner? Who
do you want as a partner, and how can we
get that for you? How can we obtain that for you?
I think those are the biggest things that come across.
And then also well, how do I date? How am
I supposed to dress for this first day? Or am
I supposed to be the one to open the door now?
(26:35):
Or do I wait to have the door open for me?
Just these little nuances that we work through.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
Yeah, and something else that has come up for us
I think in the community recently is like there's a
lot of anxiety about like the first time you're going
to be physical with somebody, and I would imagine that
is the case here too. Can you talk a little
bit about how do you prepare for your first time?
Like what kinds of conversations should you be having, what
kinds of things can be helpful to kind of manage
(27:00):
anxiety around your first time?
Speaker 2 (27:02):
The biggest thing is boundaries. What are your boundaries? What
are you willing to do, what are you not willing
to do? How are you willing to be touched? And
how do you want to touch others? What does consent
look like? How do you withdraw consent if need be?
Just again, I hate to say the word basic, but
these things that we don't think about now as adults
because maybe if we've navigated these as young adults, but
(27:25):
it's kind of like, well, how do you want your
body to be perceived or how do you want to
use your body in a sexual manner or at an
intimate level with your partner, And how do you want
to have these conversations about body parts or how do
you want to have this conversation about what your body
may have looked like or how bodies may have changed
(27:47):
over time, and how does that affect you when you
look in the mirror, what do you see? Do you
feel sexy?
Speaker 1 (27:52):
No?
Speaker 2 (27:53):
How can we get you to feel sexy? What do
you need to feel better about yourself or better about
what you see when you look in the mirror, because
that's where it really istess arts.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
So you mentioned the term that I think a lot
of people may not be familiar with, Tia, withdrawing consent.
So can you talk a little bit more about what
that means? And like, how would you even withdraw consent?
Speaker 2 (28:11):
So with drawing consent just means that you want to
stop whatever activity is happening. So that looks like saying
stop or no, or I think we should shade this
for a later date, or I thought I was ready
for I don't think I'm ready now. So anytime you
might have said Okay, I do want to do this activity,
but then you change your mind later, its withdrawing consent.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
And I think a lot of people don't know that
even if you have done something before, you can still
withdraw consent and say I don't want to do that again.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
Yeah, So you mentioned something Tia that I wanted to
follow up on. You talked about a lot of these
conversations actually need to happen before anybody gets nikeked. Right,
So all these conversations around boundaries, how would you introduce
this conversation with a potential partner.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
I think a lot of it is a natural progression.
So it may happen with that first kiss, so that
first makeout session, or when things start to feel like
they're getting hot and heavy, and it starts with somebody's saying,
let's really talk about this. What are our expectations and
what does it look like for me to say I'm ready?
(29:15):
What does it look like for me to say I
may not have had sex this way before, but I'm
willing to try. And it's something really special about being vulnerable,
And all of this is assessing somebody's vulnerability level and
what are they willing to do, what are they willing
to talk about? And again, if they're not ready, maybe
let's take a step back and do that at a
(29:37):
later date. Let's just focus on building our mental intimacy
or our romantic intimacy and not just straight sexual intimacy.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
So so much of dating today, when you've already talked
about this a little bit, but so much of dating
today is happening online, right, so we know you've already
mentioned that people can easily infiltrate spaces. So what kinds
of conversations are What kinds of suggestions would you give
to people around kW to navigate online dating to defend
against transphorb me as much as possible. What kinds of
(30:06):
suggestions would you have there.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
Trust your instincts, trust your gut, let somebody know if
you're going on a first date, let somebody know your
surroundings of what's happening around you. And as far as
trying to select a partner or you know, read through
who could be a potential is just look for those keywords,
look for how that person is talking about trans people,
(30:32):
or look about how that person is talking about people
in the community as a whole, and just be alert.
Ask questions. There's nothing wrong with too many questions. And
then for somebody who their style they prefer to disclose
off the top, be okay with the backlash, be okay
or normalizing or not taking that personal that person doesn't
(30:55):
want to continue, and know when to take a break.
If are you're seeing on these Dayton profiles is transphobia?
Of are you've seen is negative outlook on the internet,
or social media. Just cut the computer off for a
little bit, take some time. It's okay to come back
to that later day. You don't have to digest this
(31:15):
all day every day. It's already waiting out there for
you anyway. So you take your time and you take
a step back from everything from Dayton peruse and social media.
Stick to your support system and ask for help if
you need help.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
So you know. Another first that I think can bring
up a lot of anxiety for people is meeting a
partner's family for the first time. Right and again, I
would imagine that this can be, you know, an additional
level of stress for a trans person. Can you talk
about what kinds of things should the non trans partner
maybe do to prepare their family, Like, what kinds of
conversations should be happening to make sure this is an
(31:52):
affirming kind of opportunity for the person.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
For the non trans person bringing their trans partner into
their family, it starts with again boundaries talking to their famils. Ka, Okay,
we're not gonna talk about this, We're not gonna bring
this particular subject up. We're gonna let that person and
they share pronouns. This is their pronouns. Is the pronouns
that we're using. If somebody uses an incorrect pronoun, I
(32:16):
expect you to either correct yourself or be prepared to
be corrected. And just setting those firm boundaries that this
is not gonna fly. This is the person that I'm
choosing to be with, and if that can be accepted,
then maybe we can't have dinner on Sunday. It looks
like being very firm in their support and then their
affirmation of their partner.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
Yeah, and I would imagine that there are again some
conversations that need to happen with the partner even before
you meet the family, right around what kinds of things
feel comfortable? What kinds of things don't feel comfortable?
Speaker 2 (32:45):
Yeah, so then you're definitely gonna have that conversation with
your partner about, well, okay, what are your boundaries with
my family or what kind of things do I need
to look out for if you're feeling uncomfortable? What kind
of support do you need if you're feeling uncomfortable, and
what's our exep plain and if we need to leave,
we can leave and remind that partner that they don't
have to be in a space that they're uncomfortable being
(33:06):
in and if any kind of discomfort is there, we're
gonna remove ourselves. And those kind of things can be
happening way before the meeting, in the car on the
way to the meeting, as far as reaffirming that is
going to be okay, I'm here, letting your partner know
that you are there for them, This is just the
next station in your relationship and that you're here.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
So you talked earlier Tia about the importance of media
and like solid positive depictions of trans people. Can you
point to any like shows or films or things that
you've seen recently that you think have done a good
job of really presenting trans people.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
So I really love POSS and I know it's not
on anymore, but I just recently rewrited the series, and
I think a lot of that is very very affirming
to see people in the community even that far, even
it's not that far, but you know, talking about the
eighties and early nineties, the depictions of the trans population
there is really where I pull from the most. I
(34:07):
see a lot of people on social media as far
as like TikTok is Concerned or even Facebook coming out
more and sharing their stories and sharing their journeys, and
that's usually where I direct a lot of my patients too,
if they're looking for a more positive light or more
of how do I see myself on the screen, So
(34:27):
a lot of me is showing them social media.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
So you are also working on a workbook, Tia, tell
us more about your work wook and what your plans are,
your hopes are for the work.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
So it's a work in progress. It is about intimacy.
How to build intimacy with your partner or partners if
you are in nom monogamous relationships, and what that looks
like from a physical aspect, from a romantic aspect, en
fron mental aspect, and so it's just about those little
(34:57):
things to get your intimacy back to where there it
was or better than what it was beforehand. People are
looking to pull that spark back, all right.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
So let us know where we can stay posted so
that we know when the workbook drops. What is your
website as well as any social media channels you'd like
to share.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
So my website is Beth change hky dot com. You
can find me on Instagram at t the Sex Therapist,
no Ian sex. Because social media they will pull you.
Also on Facebook, as Ta Evans sexuality and relationship therapist,
I believe is what it is currently. And then my
(35:35):
brick and mortar practice is based out of Hickory, North Carolina,
and it's called The Change within the Counseling Center Perfect.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
We'll be sure to include all of that in the
show notes. Thank you so much for spending some time
with us today, Tya, absolutely, I'm so glad Tia was
able to join us and share her expertise for this conversation.
To learn more about her and her work, be sure
to visit the show notes at Therapy from Black Girl
slash trans Dating, and don't forget to textas episode to
(36:04):
two of your girls right now and encourage them to
check it out. If you're looking for a therapist in
your area, check out our therapist directory at Therapy for
Blackgirls dot com slash directory. And if you want to
continue digging into this topic or just be in community
with other sisters, come on over and join us in
the Sister Circle. It's our cozy corner of the Internet
designed just for black women. You can join us at
(36:27):
community dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. This episode was
produced by Frida Lucas Elise Ellis and Zaria Taylor. Editing
was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much for
joining me for this bonus episode. We'll be back with
our regular episode next week. Take good care, what's
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy Harden Bradford, a
licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or to
(00:32):
find a therapist in your area, visit our website at
Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you love
listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not
meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a
licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much for
(00:57):
joining me for a special bonus episode of the Therapy
for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our conversation
after a worry from our sponsors. Earlier this week, we
shed some light on the experience of dating as a
transgender woman, and today we want to delve a little
(01:20):
deeper into that conversation, this time from the lens of
certified sex therapist Tia Evans. Tia has a private practice
in which she holds space for people from all cultures
and backgrounds. She holds a Master of Social Work from
Fayeteville State University, a Master of education in Human Sexuality
from Widner University and is a licensed clinical social worker
(01:42):
in the state of North Carolina. During our conversation, we
explored ways for a transgender person to identify signs of
safety and a potential friend or partner, how to establish
boundaries around intimacy with a new partner, and how cisgender
individuals can best support their transgender place partners. If something
resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share with
(02:05):
us on social media using the hashtag TVG in session
or join us over in the sister Circle to talk
more about the episode. You can join us at Community
dot Therapy from blackgirls dot com. Here's our conversation. Thank
you so much for joining us today, Tire, of course,
thank you for having me. Absolutely absolutely so. You are
(02:28):
a licensed clinical social worker and a kink friendly sex therapist.
Can you talk to us a little bit about what
you do in the communities you serve?
Speaker 2 (02:37):
So my role is people come to me when they
have issues in the relationships and their sex lives, questions
about a gender, sexuality, all that fun.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Stuff, got it? Got it? And what does it mean
to be kink friendly?
Speaker 2 (02:51):
That means that I'm pretty well versed in things in
the kink community. So like BDSM, anything that's unconventional I
have a pretty good knowledge base of. And so I
come into a place of the non judgmental. You can
come ask your questions, you can ask your opinions, and
we can run just hash things out that they may
not feel comfortable doing in regular therapy.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
And so in a large part of your caseload and
a lot of the work you do is also as
a part of the trans community.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Correct, Yes, a huge base.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Yes, So I think it's important for us when we
are having these kinds of conversations to make sure we
have good definitions and that people are kind of operating
from the same place. So I want to ask you
a couple of words to see if you can give
us a definition so that you know people have a
better understanding. So what are we talking about when we
say cis gender?
Speaker 2 (03:37):
So a cist gender person is a person that identifies
with the gender that they were assigned at birth.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Okay, and what about trans feminine?
Speaker 2 (03:46):
For somebody who identifies as transfeminine, that means that they
have been assigned one particular gender that may have been
assigned male as their gender. But they identify as female
or they identify as being more or into feminine based things.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
And what about trans masculine.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
So then that's going to be the opposite of that.
So that's a person who's tender, maybe a signed female
at birth, but they identify as male or they are
into masculine things or identify with things that are traditionally
labelled as a masculine.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
So, Tia, you know, I know so much of like
how we know about ourselves and how we are interested
in dating and our dating habits are shaped by like
our upbringing, right, And I know that for people in
the trans community, they're often being raised by CIS people.
So can you talk a little bit about how like
(04:39):
that lack of representation impacts identity and dating choices.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
So when people aren't used to seeing how they would
love to date or they are in clinent today being
represented let's stay in the media or even in their
own community, it makes them feel isolated or it makes
them feel like what they're doing is and people tend
to and if they're put into that box, they tend
to kind of shut down and maybe go into themselves
(05:07):
and they withdraw. You might see somebody end up being
very anxious or depressed, or just seemingly not connected to
society as a whole, maybe like even checked out.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
And you mentioned the media for a lot of people
who are in morginalized communities, if you don't see yourself
represented in your home or in your community, and you
will turn to media, right, So, TV, film, books, those
kinds of things. Can you talk a little bit about
the impact that you have seen on the trans community
from looking at depictions of trans life in the media.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
I think that when we see things that are in
a positive light, then you see more of a whilely
seeing my patients, more of happy, upbeat. But then when
you see things in the media that might show trends
people in a negative light, then I see them coming
with more of being down themselves or maybe even questioning
where they fit in society or in their own lives
and their own community. So I think it definitely ebbs
(06:01):
and flows with what you see on TV or on
the radio, with how people who are a part of
the community tend to reflect in the day to day.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
And to your earlier points. So, I recently had a
chance to watch the Disclosure documentary on Netflix. Have you
seen that I haven't seen it, Okay. So there was
a lot in the documentary just about not having trans
representation in the media, or if it was then it
was always this thing that was like looked upon negatively
or it was like a joke, right, Like a joke
(06:33):
was made out of trans people's lives, and that the
people in the documentary were talking about how that impacted
their identity and like their self concept until they grew
up and maybe met trans people in later life.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
I don't have to check that out. It sounds really good.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
Mm hmmmmm, Yeah, it definitely would be one. I think
you'd appreciate. The other thing that they talked about as
a part of the documentary was like having to unlearn
so much of like the negative stereotypes that they saw
about trans people in the media. Can you talk a
little bit about maybe what that has looked like with
your clients, Like what kinds of things have they had
to unlearned.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Believe it or not, some people who identify as trans
are in the community may have a bit of transphobia
themselves just because of what they've seen or what's been
spilled back into them. So part of what I do
is kind of unpack what they've learned, and we decipher
what is good to keep and what is not so
good to keep, and I really get in there and
(07:27):
discover what do they want to be, how do they
want to represent themselves? So what does it mean to
be authentic? And that's what comes across my desk a
lot is how do I live authentically when the world
doesn't want me to be present? And so part of
that is really just sitting into that and maybe just
defining what does it mean to be authentic? And how
do we persevere and look past the negativity? How do
(07:49):
we look past the stereotypes, and how do we get
people to be seen and heard as it deserved to
be seen and heard.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
Yeah, and I was gonna say, I would imagine that
your job has become that much harder in recent years,
right with all the additional like anti trans legislation that's
being passed. Can you talk a little bit about how
all of that has impacted your work and your clients.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
So I am in North Carolina and where's a lot
of negative trans bills floating around right now, and some
of the bigger ones are being targeted towards my little
trans people. So my under eighteen people. And so that's
where we see a lot of not just the patience,
but the parents too try and decide or what we're
gonna do because a lot of people are option to move.
(08:32):
That's the biggest impact that's happening right now. Within this day,
there's people making exit plans to leave the state, to
seek refuge and places that are safer or places that
are more welcoming. It's devastating.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
Yeah, So when you talk about like sitting with people
and helping them to kind of appreciate authentically who they are,
what does that look like? What kinds of conversations are
you having or exercises that might help with some of that.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
So I asked them to define who they are. If
they have to describe themselves to anybody, how will they
describe themselves? And then we'll go into well how does
that look? How do you represent that adjective with the physical?
How do you want to present? How do you want
to look? What do you want to give to the world.
That's pretty much how we start, and then I send
(09:17):
them home, Well, this is what you need to work on.
Here is how you can present and the way you
want to present. And let's see what feels good for you,
and let's see what doesn't feel good for you, and
let's reshape it if it doesn't.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
Tea earlier, you mentioned that even people in the trans
community themselves will sometimes experience transphobia, and that feels similar
to you. Even black people experiencing anti blackness right and
are having anti black kinds of thoughts. So what kinds
of things do you do to help them unpack like
some of their internalized transphobia.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
So I normalize people being able to present the way
they want to present. So sometimes you see some trans
people talking about how I want to make sure that
I pass or what does it mean to be passable?
And what does it mean to be able to blend in?
And then there are some people in the community that
just are free to look and feel how they want
(10:08):
to feel, and that may not be mainstream, that may
not be the norm, so to speak. And so I
work with patients to normalize. You look how you want
to look, You represent how you want to represent, and
that doesn't make you any more or less of how
you want to be seen or viewed. And how you
look doesn't affect how the next person looks, and so
less normalize your own style, your own authenticity, your own esthetic.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
Can you talk to you about any additional kinds of
struggles that you see with maybe some of your black
trans clients. Are there additional kinds of conversations, additional things
to kind of work through as being a part of
the black community.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Oh? Absolutely. The biggest thing I see is issues with
the church and their spirituality and religion that intersects heavy.
Especially a lot of the people who are in the
trans community that come from a very heavily spiritual Christian
base will often be conflicted on well, this is what
my religion says, but this is how I feel. Or
I can't go home because my grandmother, who is a
(11:05):
deepness in church, or my father who's a pastor in
the church, doesn't want me around because of how I
look to them, and how the church might see my
parents not even meet, but how I see my parents.
So what it trickles down, that's what I see the
most within the black and brown communities is how their
religion crosses over into the identity.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
Thank you for sharing that tea, You know it makes
me think about there's obviously then some grief to I
would imagine process when maybe you have to let go
of some of those relationships, either as parents or with
a church. Can you talk a little bit about how
you might help somebody process.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
That so that might even look like maybe a mini funeral,
or what do you want to say to your family
that you may not be able to say? If you
want to write a letter, even if you send it
or not, what do you want that letter to say
as your goodbyes to whoever you have to let go,
If it's the or if it's religion as a whole,
what can you do to find peace with that within yourself?
(12:05):
And what does that mean for you to maybe get
your spiritual cut field in a different way. So we
look up ways to process letting go, but looking forward
to being able to be free. Is that sacrifice worth
the freedom? And if it is, then we move forward.
If it's not, well, what does that mean? How can
(12:26):
you find those little pieces of peace in the struggle.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Can you say more about the ceremony. I think that's
often a very powerful kind of imagery for people to do,
like these kind of funerals, or it kind of reminds
me of like an empty chair technique. Can you say
a little bit more about the ceremony, like would you
encourage them to invite other people to be a witness
to that? What does that look like?
Speaker 2 (12:47):
Only if they feel safe doing so. But usually it's
something that we might even do in session where the
person is maybe standing up and reading what their goodbyes
could look like to the couch, which is again the
empty chair method, or even just saying hey, this is
who I used to be. I am memorialized and who
(13:08):
I used to be, and I'm letting go of that
so that the new week can be birthed. So it
really is one of those they write out what they
want to say. If they want to bring in our
article of clothing or something that they want to leave behind,
they're welcome to do that. Just something that memorializes who
they were and maybe something to look forward to moving forward,
(13:31):
even if it's like a new tube of lipstick or
a new tie, just something to kind of complete the ceremony,
if you will.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
Thank you for that more from our conversation after the break. So,
you know, I think even within the LGBTQIE community there
(14:00):
has often been even further marginalization for trans people as
a part of that community and kind of being made
to feel invisible. Can you talk a little bit about
some of that backlash and supporting clients to find community
even within the community that they may be feeling pushed
out of.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
And I think the biggest part about that too is
some people in the community see the tea in the
acronym is more gender based versus sexuality based, and that's
where a lot of intersection looks or a lot of
them being ostracized looks like, oh, this is a tack
on our sexuality, but they're folks on their gender, so
(14:39):
they should stay over there, when really there's a lot
of people who are trans that are very much steal
lesbian or gay or participate in the acronym as well.
So letting them know that they still belong, normalizing that
your place is here. If you want to identify within
this culture, then you have every right to do so,
and nobody can take they're from you. I love to say,
(15:01):
who gonna check you in my sessions? Because really and truly,
who has the right to do that?
Speaker 1 (15:06):
Right right? I love that? And can you talk a
little bit about helping people in the trans community find
community for themselves, because I think if you can't be
a part of some of these larger communities. Sometimes that
means you have to create it for yourself. So can
you talk about supporting clients through that or with that?
Speaker 2 (15:23):
Absolutely? So what I do is I talk about, well,
what does your support system look like now, and how
many people aren't in supports who are also trans, and
what does that look like? Would you like more trans friends?
And we talk about ways to maybe find trans friends,
ways to if their city has an organization that's dedicated
(15:44):
to the trans community, I might direct them there, if
there's resources onlines or even Facebook groups that seem safe.
Just trying to encourage them to find their tribe and
what speaks to them. Because and then because everybody's not
going to accept everybody, and that's the unfortunate reality of
the world. So my job is to get back to
(16:04):
them and say, you find your people. Who do you
want your people to be? Let's find your people. Let
me help you find your people.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
We definitely talk about, you know, finding community and friendship
here at TVG a lot. Can you talk a little
bit about how people can assess whether somebody is actually
a safe person to be in their circle.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
It looks like asking specific questions, maybe not necessarily outing
themselves if they don't need to, but asking questions about
how they feel about even just the lgbt QIA community
as a whole. How do you feel about what's happening
in politics? Maybe, oh, have you seen this show? What's
your take on this show? Those little feeling questions to
(16:47):
put those feelers out without out themselves they don't have to,
that's where you start, and.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
I would imagine that's why, you know, finding like the
Facebook groups and different kinds of communities where like you
already know that there is some acceptance and hopefully affirmation,
maybe feel like a better place to start then, you know,
like random strangers. Oh correct, absolutely, yeah, yeah, but.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
More so you want us to do the filling out
in social media or insights that may be more public
and less provas. We want to be selective regardless, it's
easy to infiltrate these spaces sometimes. Yeah, that's a big
part of being safe too, is really knowing where you're
putting yourself out there and really being on your p's
(17:28):
and q's.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
You're saying that makes me think, you know, we talked
a little bit about like some of the additional challenges
that black people in the trans community have and we
know that some of the highest levels of violence happened
to black trans women. Is there any safety planning that
you do with clients or like bringing in additional agencies
or resources to help support clients in that area.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
I like to ask them what are they doing to
stay safe? Just straight up, Especially if I have people
who are trying to day or are new today, they
are wanting today, and I say, well, what's your exit plan?
What's happened if you meet this stranger and it comes
out in that moment and it gets a little heck
that what are you going to do? Talk about maybe
making sure that you're closer to the door versus the
(18:14):
other person. Just I don't want to say basic safety
book because really some things would just take for granted,
like watching your surroundings, looking around, checking license plates of Nebee,
just those little things.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Yeah, you know. And as you're talking about this, Tia,
I'm wondering how that impacts like intimacy, because you're already
going into these situations thinking like, Okay, what is my
safety plan going to be?
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Right?
Speaker 1 (18:38):
And I think most of us have to. I mean,
we should be thinking about that because you just never
know what it does feel like there's a particular kind
of burden for folks in the trans community. So can
you talk a little bit about how that might impact
intimacy or the ability to even settle into relationships when
you're kind of always thinking about safety planning.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
I think that it takes a little longer for some
just because the respector right and really making sure that
they feel safe to even divulge their gender identity. I
think that's a huge part of a huge part of
it is actually when do I have this conversation with
my partner or what does that conversation look like? And
so those are the kind of things that we work
(19:16):
through in session, where how do you want to disclose,
how do you want to operate if that person maybe
gets angry or that person might need more time to
think about what they want to do, and normalize and
give them space, to give their partner space because that
could be apprehensive too that weight and gain wait and
(19:38):
to see what the response is going to be and
kind of normalize them. Well, these are your options, and
what do these options look like if it falls to
A to B or the C category.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
So what kinds of guidelines are conversations? Do you typically
talk about with your clients around like when do you
disclose this information or when is it necessary?
Speaker 2 (19:59):
Well, that's a big question, just asking them when they
feel when it's necessary, because I can't be the judge
of that. But it goes case by case scenario. It's
usually around comfort level. How have you experienced this before?
Have you had an opportunity to disclose a gender before?
And what does that feel like? What are you gonna
do differently this time or if you've never done it before,
(20:20):
give me a sign that makes you feel safe, Tell
me something that's gonna make you feel safe enough to
disclose that or are you the type that you want
to disclose off the top And if you do, are
you willing to accept what happens or do you know
what could happen if you disclose off the top your
gender identity. So a lot of it is just planning
(20:42):
and overplanning and going through scenarios and role playing and
really hashing out the benefits and consequences of these particular
actions and then coming behind with the safety plan on
top of it. It's a lot of preparation in the
front end.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
Yeah, you know, And I'm wondering to ya if this
feels like a pie in the sky kind of questioning,
But it feels like we are asking people from this
marginalized group to do like all of this thinking, like
what kinds of conversations and things could we be having
as people who are not members of the trans community
so that this burden is not so heavy for people
in the trans community.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
I think it starts about just having conversations in general
and correcting people or correcting friends or peers if the
wrong pronouns are being used or this negative talk comes along.
Somebody has to be the change agent and say, hey,
it's not okay to talk about this community or talk
about this person in this way. Because we're all humans,
(21:40):
we have the right to live. And how is one
person's decision directly affecting you if that's not somebody that
you have in your traditional space and your space in general.
So just breaking down the stereotypes and checking people out
the door and being prepared to maybe lose some friends
or lose some loved ones behind it to be that
change agent.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
So you gave us some great information around trying to
assess whether somebody is trustworthy as a friend. Are there
additional kinds of questions or things that people should be
looking out for in terms of like being a potential
partner or somebody to date, in terms of whether they
are trustworthy.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
I think that kind of parallels. I think once you
get past the safetiness and a friend, it kind of
transpires into the next section. And especially at that point,
if they feel safe enough to disclose, maybe asking somebody
if they dated a trans person before and what that
looked like for them and how they felt about it,
and really seeing what somebody's current knowledge is within dating
(22:40):
in the community.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
So for trans people who maybe are feeling like some
societal pressure to disclose, right because you already said that's
up to the person's kind of individual comfort. So let's
say people are listening to our conversation now and they
are feeling like this pressure to disclose. What kinds of
things might you tell them, or what kinds of questions
might they want to ask themselves?
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Are you ready? Are you really ready to disclose or
you just feel like you need to just because? And
if it's just because, what's stopping you from waiting another
day or waiting the nextra week. For those who feel
that they are ready, that they do want to disclose, well,
what does it feel like? What are you feeling currently?
What's your reason for wanting to disclose? How do you
(23:21):
think you're going to feel after you do disclose? And
if you feel like disclosing, try it with a very
trusted friend first and go from there. If you already
have your tribe and you've already disclosed the people in
your tribe, do you need somebody there with you to
support you as you disclose? And if you do, that's
(23:42):
okay too. It's nothing wrong with having a support person
present with you when you need to have these difficult
conversations or conversations where you don't quite know how the
ending is going to be. And then also ask yourself, well,
once the cat's out the bag, I can't put the
cat back in the bag. So what is life going
to look like from me?
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Me?
Speaker 2 (24:00):
Or how do I want my life to look once
I have disclosed? It's a lot of soul searching.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Yeah, I would imagine too, like what kinds of support
is going to be there after I disclosed? Right? Like
what kinds of communities might I want to be able
to be a part of? More from our conversation after
the break, so it sounds like people are using therapy
(24:30):
for lots of different reasons. Especially you know in the
work that you're doing, what are some of the conversations
or situations that maybe have come up for people like
when they started dating, that they didn't even think about that.
Maybe you have tried to or helped a client work
through labels.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
I think labels are a big thing, especially if somebody
is navigating dating a person in the community that may
not have even been in the community when they first
started dating. As a common topic that I work with
see is well what does that mean for you? Now?
Am I now gay and my now a lesbian? What
does this mean for me? And I try to take
(25:07):
a step back and say, well, you don't have to
jump the gun so fast. You don't have to put
any label on yourself that you don't want to identify with.
What do you see as a partner, who do you
want as a partner? And what does dating for you
mean or look like? And as far as intimacy goes,
there's levels to it, right, So who says that you
(25:28):
have to do everything that you feel like should be done.
Just do what feels natural for you and let your
instincts take you there. I find a lot of people
in the community, they don't necessarily change their sexual identity, right,
So it looks like, well, how do you want to date?
Do you want to be a pursuer? Now? Do you
(25:50):
want to be pursued? What's your style or what do
you think your style is going to look like? If
you're trying to navigate the dating field as a new person,
how do you want to present yourself? How do you
want to be treated? What do you have to give
the world, and what do you want the world to
give you? As you're navigating dating, just really looking at
(26:13):
the who do you see as a potential partner? Who
do you want as a partner, and how can we
get that for you? How can we obtain that for you?
I think those are the biggest things that come across.
And then also well, how do I date? How am
I supposed to dress for this first day? Or am
I supposed to be the one to open the door now?
(26:35):
Or do I wait to have the door open for me?
Just these little nuances that we work through.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
Yeah, and something else that has come up for us
I think in the community recently is like there's a
lot of anxiety about like the first time you're going
to be physical with somebody, and I would imagine that
is the case here too. Can you talk a little
bit about how do you prepare for your first time?
Like what kinds of conversations should you be having, what
kinds of things can be helpful to kind of manage
(27:00):
anxiety around your first time?
Speaker 2 (27:02):
The biggest thing is boundaries. What are your boundaries? What
are you willing to do, what are you not willing
to do? How are you willing to be touched? And
how do you want to touch others? What does consent
look like? How do you withdraw consent if need be?
Just again, I hate to say the word basic, but
these things that we don't think about now as adults
because maybe if we've navigated these as young adults, but
(27:25):
it's kind of like, well, how do you want your
body to be perceived or how do you want to
use your body in a sexual manner or at an
intimate level with your partner, And how do you want
to have these conversations about body parts or how do
you want to have this conversation about what your body
may have looked like or how bodies may have changed
(27:47):
over time, and how does that affect you when you
look in the mirror, what do you see? Do you
feel sexy?
Speaker 1 (27:52):
No?
Speaker 2 (27:53):
How can we get you to feel sexy? What do
you need to feel better about yourself or better about
what you see when you look in the mirror, because
that's where it really istess arts.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
So you mentioned the term that I think a lot
of people may not be familiar with, Tia, withdrawing consent.
So can you talk a little bit more about what
that means? And like, how would you even withdraw consent?
Speaker 2 (28:11):
So with drawing consent just means that you want to
stop whatever activity is happening. So that looks like saying
stop or no, or I think we should shade this
for a later date, or I thought I was ready
for I don't think I'm ready now. So anytime you
might have said Okay, I do want to do this activity,
but then you change your mind later, its withdrawing consent.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
And I think a lot of people don't know that
even if you have done something before, you can still
withdraw consent and say I don't want to do that again.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
Yeah, So you mentioned something Tia that I wanted to
follow up on. You talked about a lot of these
conversations actually need to happen before anybody gets nikeked. Right,
So all these conversations around boundaries, how would you introduce
this conversation with a potential partner.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
I think a lot of it is a natural progression.
So it may happen with that first kiss, so that
first makeout session, or when things start to feel like
they're getting hot and heavy, and it starts with somebody's saying,
let's really talk about this. What are our expectations and
what does it look like for me to say I'm ready?
(29:15):
What does it look like for me to say I
may not have had sex this way before, but I'm
willing to try. And it's something really special about being vulnerable,
And all of this is assessing somebody's vulnerability level and
what are they willing to do, what are they willing
to talk about? And again, if they're not ready, maybe
let's take a step back and do that at a
(29:37):
later date. Let's just focus on building our mental intimacy
or our romantic intimacy and not just straight sexual intimacy.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
So so much of dating today, when you've already talked
about this a little bit, but so much of dating
today is happening online, right, so we know you've already
mentioned that people can easily infiltrate spaces. So what kinds
of conversations are What kinds of suggestions would you give
to people around kW to navigate online dating to defend
against transphorb me as much as possible. What kinds of
(30:06):
suggestions would you have there.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
Trust your instincts, trust your gut, let somebody know if
you're going on a first date, let somebody know your
surroundings of what's happening around you. And as far as
trying to select a partner or you know, read through
who could be a potential is just look for those keywords,
look for how that person is talking about trans people,
(30:32):
or look about how that person is talking about people
in the community as a whole, and just be alert.
Ask questions. There's nothing wrong with too many questions. And
then for somebody who their style they prefer to disclose
off the top, be okay with the backlash, be okay
or normalizing or not taking that personal that person doesn't
(30:55):
want to continue, and know when to take a break.
If are you're seeing on these Dayton profiles is transphobia?
Of are you've seen is negative outlook on the internet,
or social media. Just cut the computer off for a
little bit, take some time. It's okay to come back
to that later day. You don't have to digest this
(31:15):
all day every day. It's already waiting out there for
you anyway. So you take your time and you take
a step back from everything from Dayton peruse and social media.
Stick to your support system and ask for help if
you need help.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
So you know. Another first that I think can bring
up a lot of anxiety for people is meeting a
partner's family for the first time. Right and again, I
would imagine that this can be, you know, an additional
level of stress for a trans person. Can you talk
about what kinds of things should the non trans partner
maybe do to prepare their family, Like, what kinds of
conversations should be happening to make sure this is an
(31:52):
affirming kind of opportunity for the person.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
For the non trans person bringing their trans partner into
their family, it starts with again boundaries talking to their famils. Ka, Okay,
we're not gonna talk about this, We're not gonna bring
this particular subject up. We're gonna let that person and
they share pronouns. This is their pronouns. Is the pronouns
that we're using. If somebody uses an incorrect pronoun, I
(32:16):
expect you to either correct yourself or be prepared to
be corrected. And just setting those firm boundaries that this
is not gonna fly. This is the person that I'm
choosing to be with, and if that can be accepted,
then maybe we can't have dinner on Sunday. It looks
like being very firm in their support and then their
affirmation of their partner.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
Yeah, and I would imagine that there are again some
conversations that need to happen with the partner even before
you meet the family, right around what kinds of things
feel comfortable? What kinds of things don't feel comfortable?
Speaker 2 (32:45):
Yeah, so then you're definitely gonna have that conversation with
your partner about, well, okay, what are your boundaries with
my family or what kind of things do I need
to look out for if you're feeling uncomfortable? What kind
of support do you need if you're feeling uncomfortable, and
what's our exep plain and if we need to leave,
we can leave and remind that partner that they don't
have to be in a space that they're uncomfortable being
(33:06):
in and if any kind of discomfort is there, we're
gonna remove ourselves. And those kind of things can be
happening way before the meeting, in the car on the
way to the meeting, as far as reaffirming that is
going to be okay, I'm here, letting your partner know
that you are there for them, This is just the
next station in your relationship and that you're here.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
So you talked earlier Tia about the importance of media
and like solid positive depictions of trans people. Can you
point to any like shows or films or things that
you've seen recently that you think have done a good
job of really presenting trans people.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
So I really love POSS and I know it's not
on anymore, but I just recently rewrited the series, and
I think a lot of that is very very affirming
to see people in the community even that far, even
it's not that far, but you know, talking about the
eighties and early nineties, the depictions of the trans population
there is really where I pull from the most. I
(34:07):
see a lot of people on social media as far
as like TikTok is Concerned or even Facebook coming out
more and sharing their stories and sharing their journeys, and
that's usually where I direct a lot of my patients too,
if they're looking for a more positive light or more
of how do I see myself on the screen, So
(34:27):
a lot of me is showing them social media.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
So you are also working on a workbook, Tia, tell
us more about your work wook and what your plans are,
your hopes are for the work.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
So it's a work in progress. It is about intimacy.
How to build intimacy with your partner or partners if
you are in nom monogamous relationships, and what that looks
like from a physical aspect, from a romantic aspect, en
fron mental aspect, and so it's just about those little
(34:57):
things to get your intimacy back to where there it
was or better than what it was beforehand. People are
looking to pull that spark back, all right.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
So let us know where we can stay posted so
that we know when the workbook drops. What is your
website as well as any social media channels you'd like
to share.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
So my website is Beth change hky dot com. You
can find me on Instagram at t the Sex Therapist,
no Ian sex. Because social media they will pull you.
Also on Facebook, as Ta Evans sexuality and relationship therapist,
I believe is what it is currently. And then my
(35:35):
brick and mortar practice is based out of Hickory, North Carolina,
and it's called The Change within the Counseling Center Perfect.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
We'll be sure to include all of that in the
show notes. Thank you so much for spending some time
with us today, Tya, absolutely, I'm so glad Tia was
able to join us and share her expertise for this conversation.
To learn more about her and her work, be sure
to visit the show notes at Therapy from Black Girl
slash trans Dating, and don't forget to textas episode to
(36:04):
two of your girls right now and encourage them to
check it out. If you're looking for a therapist in
your area, check out our therapist directory at Therapy for
Blackgirls dot com slash directory. And if you want to
continue digging into this topic or just be in community
with other sisters, come on over and join us in
the Sister Circle. It's our cozy corner of the Internet
designed just for black women. You can join us at
(36:27):
community dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. This episode was
produced by Frida Lucas Elise Ellis and Zaria Taylor. Editing
was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much for
joining me for this bonus episode. We'll be back with
our regular episode next week. Take good care, what's
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