May 17, 2023 • 38 mins
The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.
This week we’re revisiting an episode from our archives and diving into the world of EMDR. EMDR (Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing) is a treatment method designed for treating trauma, PTSD, anxiety, and panic. Our guest for this #ICYMI episode is Kelli Davis, a Licensed Professional Counselor based in Memphis, TN. Kelli and I explored what EMDR is, how it works, and how it differs from traditional talk therapy.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy Hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:57):
for joining me for session three oh seven of the
Therapy for Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our conversation
after a word from our sponsors. Have you heard? My
first book, Sisterhood Heels, is available for pre order right
now at sisterhood Heels dot com. Grab your copy to
learn more about what role you play in your sister circles,
(01:18):
why difficult conversations can make relationships closer, and steps to
take when it's time to end of friendship. We'll have
lots to talk about this summer, and you don't want
to miss it. Pre Order your copy of Sisterhood Heels
right now at sisterhood Heels dot com. This week, we're
revisiting an episode from our archives and diving into the
(01:40):
world of EMDR. EMDR stands for imovement, desensitization and reprocessing
and is a treatment method designed for treating trauma, PTSD, anxiety,
and panic. Our guest for this In Case You Misted
episode is Kelly Davis, a licensed professional counselor based in Memphis, Tennessee.
Kelly and I explored what EMDR is, how it works,
(02:04):
and how it differs from traditional talk therapy. If something
resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share with
us on social media using the hashtag TBG in session
or join us over in the sister circles to talk
more in depth about the episode. You can join us
at community dot therapy for Blackgirls dot Com. Here's our conversation. So, Kelly,
(02:28):
thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
You're welcome. So you are here to talk with us
all about e MDR. So, first of all, can you
tell us what those letters stand for.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
EMDR stands for Imovement, Desensitization, Reprocessing.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Okay, So what is that EMDR.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Is a type therapy modality that creates RIM sleep, rapid
eyemovement sleep at a waking state. It is believed that
a lot of healing and repairing and restoring takes place
in rimsleep. So essentially what MDR does is mimic rimsleep,
(03:12):
but the client or patient is awake and very aware
of what's going on. Many people mistaken for hypnosis. It's
not hypnosis. They're awake, they're alert, and they're just kind
of guided through correcting areas in their lives that need
to be corrected.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Okay, and so what is involved in this? Like it
sounds like this may require like some kind of equipment
or does it involve any kind of equipment?
Speaker 2 (03:39):
It can involve equipment. When it was first discovered and
taught to different clinicians, clinicians were encouraged to create the
eye movement process by taking two fingers and waving them
back and forth in front of a patient, and patients
or clients were asked to track the movement of the
fingers going back and forth. And there's some polin issues
(04:01):
that still use that. I personally use what are considered
tappers that will bilaterally stimulate patients and that's what creates
the rimsleep process. As long as the eyes are moving
back and forth, then we are mimicking rimsleep. And that's
the whole method of what's going on, the eye movement
(04:23):
going back and forth.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Okay, So these tappers that you're talking about, what would
they be doing? You say they stimulate bilateral.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Yeah, So what I do when I'm using Mdr Joy
I will have clients or to hold the tappers in
each hand and you can create the intensity of how
they buzz back and forth. You can also control how
fast the movements go back and forth. Some clients, I
will have them to sit on top of them, to
put one tapper under each leg or under each foot,
(04:57):
because reprocessing traumatic events, you know, it's painful, and so
when people get tearful, I like for their hands to
be free if they would want to reach for kleenics
or clench their hands. But every clinician is different.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
Okay, okay, So what clinical issues is e MD are
typically used for.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
It's typically used for people survivors of traumatic experiences, primarily
people with post traumatic stress disorder that have these disturbing
events that try to process on their own. People try
to work them out on their own, and the way
they try to get worked out oftentimes are through nightmares
and flashbacks. But nightmares people wake up and so they
(05:39):
stop the process of trying to work through a traumatic experience,
or if there's a flashback, the inclination is let's go
ahead and stop it from happening. EMDR will go hit
and encourage that in control setting and controlled environment.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
Okay, so this this feels like, is this something that
works in tandem with something like cognitive behavioral therapy or
is this like a different approach.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
I definitely think it could work in tandem with CBT.
I've had a lot of clients that come to me
they've used cognitive behavior therapy to try and to work
through traumatic experiences. But that kind of keeps you intellectual,
you know, just kind of in your head EMDR. And
that's what I like so much about it. It encourages
(06:26):
the emotional aspect that goes along with traumatic situations that happen.
Most traumatic situations that happen to us, they kind of
freeze a story. We're kind of stuck in time, so
we can feel all of the all of the painful
emotions are still stuck there. EMDR encourages becoming unstuck, and
(06:50):
sometimes CBT just cannot reach a client at that level
because EMDR can be very physiological. It is trapped in
the body. There's some research that talks about MS multiple
sclerosis could be considered trapped trauma. Trauma is trapped in
the body. So EMDR encourages the processing at a cellular level,
(07:11):
and that's a place that talk therapy tries really hard
to reach. But in my experience, it can't quite get
to it. And most clients will come to me and say,
I've talked about this issue. I'm so I'm tired of
talking about it. The talking gives it the relief, but
it just doesn't get it to the level that that
EMDR will will give a client too that I've seen.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Okay, so this this all sounds really interesting and I
want to kind of, you know, help everybody understand like
what this exactly looks like. So somebody comes to you,
you know, after a traumatic experience, maybe like a bad
car accident or something, what kinds of things would happen
in like the first couple of sessions, and what would
(07:54):
like a course of treatment look like with em DR
to help work through the trauma of a car accident.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Okay, so that's a good example. Somebody comes to me
with the car accident. EMDR has phases that you go through.
The first phase would be the history taking asking the
client exactly what happened, and from events that happened to us,
we develop a narrative that oftentimes is self deprecating. Things
we begin to believe about ourselves based on what happened,
(08:22):
and the belief oftentimes could be I'm not safe, I'm
not okay, I'm stuck, I'm going to die now. If
the client made it to my office, of course we
know that narrative is not true, but they're still living
with that narrative that keeps them very hypervigilant. That could
keep them from getting back into a car again or
just not wanting to drive. So the EMDR process would
(08:45):
take a client essentially back to that event and work
hard to change the narrative. And you go back to
the event with bilateral simulation, asking a client to close
their eyes, asking them to think about what the worst
part of that was while they're closing their eyes. It
just depends on the client, but I will ask that
they will talk to me through what's going on. For example,
(09:08):
a client may say, I see the red light changing,
and you know, I don't want to be there, don't
want to get out. So what I would do as
a therapist is almost kind of whole that scene and
have a client sitting on my couch. Imagine going back
to the client that was driving the car. Does that
make sense what I'm.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
Saying, So kind of going back to that moment.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
Going back to that moment while you're still being bilaterally
stimulated mm hm, and asking the client, you know, what
is it you would like to say right now, and
without prompting, most clients are able to say, you know,
you're gonna be okay, You're gonna make it through. It's
not gonna be good at the same time, you're gonna
make it through. So with the bilateral stimulation, now the
(09:52):
body in the brain is buying into the narrative that
I'm safe, I'm gonna be okay, not coming out unscathed,
but still say I survived this incident, and the bilateral
simulation helps the client to take on that new belief,
thereby releasing some of the anxiety that's associated with it.
(10:13):
Prior to an MDR session.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
More from my conversation with Kelly after the Break.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Have you heard?
Speaker 1 (10:24):
My first book, Sisterhood Heels, is available for pre order
right now at Sisterhoodheels dot com. Grab your copy to
learn more about what role you play in your sister circles,
why difficult conversations can make relationships closer, and steps to
take when it's time to end a friendship. We'll have
lots to talk about this summer, and you don't want
to miss it. Pre order your copy of Sisterhood Heels
(10:44):
right now at sisterhood Heels dot com. So it sounds
like maybe like your first couple of sessions are really
kind of getting a lot of the background information about
like setting the scene for the trauma so that you
can then use that in your EMDR sessions.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Absolutely, it's setting the scene for it. And in this
day in time, Joe, you have people with a lot
of complex trauma, and it's not uncommon to realize I
was in that car wreck and I was unsafe, but
now I also remember there was another time in my
life that I felt the same way. So it's very
common to discover other traumas coming out of just one
(11:24):
session and the whole narrative associated with what happened, possibly
long before the car accident. Now, there's some research that
shows that one em DR session can be equivalent till
till about five talk therapy sessions in one of them,
and there was some research there they would be equivalent
(11:44):
to twelve talk therapy sessions, especially dealing with veterans of
a post traumatic stress disorder. Just kind of the relief
that you get out of one of those sessions. It
encourages clients to come up really with their own insights
and their own narratives, would without being prompted by the clinician.
If I fall and break my arm, they're going to
(12:05):
take me to the door. The doctor will set my
arm in a cast, and as long as it's supported,
our creator has given our body everything it needs to heal,
that bone will go back stronger than ever. EMDR is
kind of like taking the brain and setting it correctly
around what happened, and so then the thinking goes in
an area that's helpful and not an area that's maladaptive.
(12:28):
It sets it correctly, and the brain has the potential
to heal, just like any bone in our bodies, It
just has to be set correctly.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
Wow, that's a really powerful analogy, Kelly. I appreciate that. Yeah, yeah,
so you mentioned and I would imagine I don't know
how early in a session this would happen. When you said,
if they could go back to that moment, like right
at the red light, they would be telling themselves you're
gonna be okay. I would imagine that doesn't happen in
like the first session when you are using EMDR.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
And I will say this if I could digression us
a little bit. You know, in the first session, there's
a tool you can use with a EMDR called creating
a calm safe place. So by being bilaterally stimulated, you
help the client to create a place that is calm
and safe that's only for them, and you talk them
through moments of that using EMDR. So let's say, if
(13:23):
I ask them to go to the red light, if
that's too much for you, I will say, remember we
created the calm safe place. It just depends on the
amount of emotional resourcing a person has that a clinician
would have to assess to see if they are ready
for a quote unquote red light sceneman. So you're exactly right.
The assessment important It depends on the emotional resourcing of
(13:47):
somebody if they're equipped enough to be able to handle
a thing like that. So depending on the resourcing, they
could be ready during the first session and then maybe not.
But you get that in the history take it part
part of before you.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Start, Okay, So those assessment sessions really do more than
just get like the background of the trauma. They also
talk about like what the person has been doing to
cope with the trauma, like how ready are they for
this intense type of experience?
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Absolutely? Absolutely, you're exactly right. And sometimes certain medications will
affect how effective EMDR can be. You know, most of
the time Benzo's and opiates work against the whole process
because that's supposed to relax you. You're not supposed to be heightened.
But there are points of EMDR that can be very heightened.
(14:38):
And if you're on certain medications, you can't quite get
to where it is you need to be in order
for the process to even be worthwhile. Right, So I've
had people you know in the hospital that I work
with that I go back to the position, how far
can we cut back on this medication before we even
try this process, because you would hate to re traumatize somebody.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
Right, So I want to go back to something that
you pointed out that I find really interesting. So you
mentioned that it's been your experience in some of your
EMDR work that one trauma will then unearth these other traumas.
So I'm curious how then you begin working with like
multiple traumas through the EMDR sessions.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
It's a very good question, Joy. We ask for a
Suedge level based on a trauma, and SUGE s u
d s It stands for a subjective unit of distress.
And so when the scale of zero to ten will
say how bad when you think about this event today?
How bad it does it bother you? Ten it bothers
me a lot. Zero doesn't bother me at all personally.
(15:41):
If a SUGE is five or above, I feel like
that's active trauma and it's probably affecting your life today.
So the events that you know, if one trauma unearths
another one, I'll assess and I'll get a SUDGE level,
And if that distress level is high, then that's something
that we need to work on. We need to process
(16:01):
now something I do with my clients and my outpatient office.
I'll do what's called an envelope system. When I believe
that there are multiple traumas, and what that is is
I ask clients to get an index card. Just give
that event in your life a title, write that title down,
put it in an envelope, and seal it. We don't
open the envelope until you come in my office, so
(16:23):
that means I'm not ignoring it. I know exactly where
it is when it's time to deal with it. That's
when I take it to session. Because most people with
PTSD are very afraid with multiple traumas of losing control,
so sometimes the envelope system gives them a sense of control. Now,
each title that they name an event, I ask for
a sudge level and people can come to work on
(16:45):
a car wreck, but I'll look at a sudge level
that happened twelve years ago, and this thing is still
at a ten. It's like, Okay, WHOA, this holds a
lot of weight right now, and we start the processing
from that point.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
Okay, okay, got you. So you mentioned that they would
hold it until they come to your office. Is there
a place that this is the EMDR not done in
your office.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
It is done in my office. But the point that
I give people the assignment, you know, just to say
that I'm not ignoring it. I'm not forgetting it. I
wrote it down for Kelly. It's on my dresser. I
can't wait to take these to her office. I'm not
asking you to deal with it at home or talk
to your spouse or your kids about it. We got
it on paper, it's sealed and all of the EMDR.
(17:31):
You know that I do outpatient takes place in my
office unless I'm seeing patients in a hospital, but often
in my office if I'm working on one thing and
I assess that there several others, and that is the
case joy with a lot of African Americans, several others,
meaning a theme of traumatic experiences that stand out. They
(17:52):
really do favor and like the whole envelope system.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
Mm hmm. Yeah, I can imagine that does feel a
little comforting, like they can kind of canted so to speak.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
Yeah, so you mentioned you know that you found that,
particularly with African Americans, they find that comforting. And I'm
wondering if there are any special considerations related to E
M d R when using with the with the black community.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
Prior to getting to we want to do. Em DR
is convincing the African American community that what you're dealing
with is trauma and is PTSD. We ask people out
a lot of times, what's wrong with you? Or people
may ask what's wrong with me, when the correct question
is what happened to me? What happened to you? And
it's getting African Americans to understand the things that happened
(18:39):
to them, things that happened to us. Maybe they were
not healthy, and maybe they were not intended to be harmful,
but they were. So it's just kind of wrapping my
mind around that this really is an issue and this
is something that really has affected me. Once there's a
buy in that here's something that I need to work
on because a big part of it, too, Joe, is
(19:01):
establishing trust. And I have to earn my way, in
my opinion, especially with African Americans, into doing something like
emd R, because the first thing they ask, okay, is
this hypnosis? What does this mean? But earning my way
into that, but getting them to understand that what's going
on with me is unresolved trauma. The EMDR process then
(19:21):
becomes a little easier because it is a very spiritual
process and one thing I use with African Americans, they
are quick to go back to. For example, I asked them,
if you were sexually abused as a little girl, who
would you like to take back to help rescue that
little girl? Why the bilateral stimulation is going on. It's
(19:43):
very common for them to say, I want to take
God back, I want to take Jesus back, my big
Mama back, I want to take those So to allow
them to do that and for them to become tearful
around that in a good way, they buy into the
process a lot more. Or if I'm being clear on
what I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
Yeah, yeah, And I know in some previous conversations before
we started recording, you talked about the fact that e
MDR can be really helpful because it allows you to
get to a place that sometimes words can't. And I
think that that would be particularly helpful for a lot
of black women because there does tend to be like
(20:23):
a guard there in wanting to share emotions. So if
we're getting at it in a different way, then it
kind of opens up the space for the words to follow.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
You're exactly right, And here's the thing in doing when
you talk about unresolved trauma some of the events around
what happened to us can be really shaming. What I
like about EMDR is that it takes an element out
of it because as the clinician, I don't have to
know the details of what happened and how many times
and where you were, and that's not nearly as important
to me. What I'm looking for is that belief that
(20:54):
you have about yourself because of what happened. That's the
only thing I'm really concerned about, because that's really the
thing that's kind of reakin habit, this belief that you
have about yourself based on what happened. So EMDR helps
to go back and change that narrative realizing that I
was actually strong because I survived that, so I can
(21:15):
take off the layer that I'm unworthy and I'm not
good enough, so you look at the SuDS going down
that when I think about the situation now, I'm not
at a ten. I'm at about it two. It's things,
but I can handle it a whole lot better. And
when people come with sexual trauma, their fear is that
you're going to force me to talk about it. If
somebody wants to talk, I'm not going to shut them down.
(21:38):
But that's not the expectation.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
So I can imagine in these sessions that you're bringing
up a lot. There's likely even if it didn't start
with emotion, there may be a lot of emotion kind
of coming out of it. So I'm wondering, like what
kinds of like homework or like what kinds of exercises
or grounding kinds of things go along with like the
that goes on in your office.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
I do give the assignment of letter writing to the
part of you that endure that trauma. And the hope
is what I'm looking for is that the person that's
in my office or after the therapy, that we've invoked
a little bit more compassion, because it's amazing when we
come out of trauma, we're so upset with ourselves and
(22:23):
we beat ourselves up and expect ourselves to heal all
at the same time, and that just kind of doesn't work.
It exacerbates even more trauma. Actually, But the homework assignment
of definitely writing that letter and giving them permission to
talk from the space of the trauma, meaning what does
that eight year old liddle girl have to say today
(22:45):
to a forty year old oftentime eight year olds, thank
you for forgiving me, for realizing and it really wasn't
my fault. And that's where the grounding comes in after
the session is over and sometimes even during the session.
Every patient, every session is different, but not only grounding
the whole integration process of it. Integration meaning the d
(23:07):
and MDR we desensitize it. Let's take the sting out
because I did survive and I am okay. Now we're
going to reprocess this and realize just how strong I
actually was to even make it through that situation. So
the letter writing helps with that.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
So it sounds like you don't use like the bilateral
stimulation necessarily in every session. Like a lot of what
you're talking about is like narrative and like cognitive restructuring
in some ways. So it's exactly right. Okay, So there's
also a lot of like talking going on maybe with
in the sessions that don't involve the stimulation.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Yes, you are exactly right. The biledal stimulation with creating
the rim sleep. It helps to get through the painful
parts of the situation. Sometimes when I see a client
is really struggling or really tearful and clenching. As I said,
there are different speeds and various intensities on the tapers
that I use, So I'll turn them up just a
(24:01):
little in order to kind of make it over that,
you know, make it over that hump. And there are
times joy that I've turned them down and the client said, no,
turn it back up. I'm in this place. I want
to process that, I want to go ahead and get through.
But you're exactly right. The bilotal simulation is not necessarily
used through every setting, you know, every session regarding that.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
More from my conversation with Kelly after the break. Have
you heard? My first book, Sisterhood Heels, is available for
pre order right now at sisterhood Heels dot com. Grab
your copy to learn more about what role you play
in your sister circles, why difficult conversations can make relationships closer,
and steps to take when it's time to end a friendship.
(24:44):
We'll have lots to talk about this summer, and you
don't want to miss it. Pre Order your copy of
Sisterhood Heels right now at sisterhood Heels dot com. And
is there a part of this that that a client
would try to do at home? Like could a client
induce this for themselves?
Speaker 2 (25:05):
Well? That's the first thing I say. Please, don't go
home taping.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
On the body.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Go home and tell people close your eyes. Let me
sure you what I learned from telling. There are people
that can order their own tappers, but you have to
give a lot of paperwork into how much MD are
you've actually had. You know, another therapist has to know
that this is what you're doing. What I have encouraged
clients to do is to kind of create their own
(25:31):
tapping when I do the calm safe place element that
you could help to enhance a safe place for you.
And it's really not tapping, George, because we bilaterally stimulate
all the time. We rock side to side. That's what
that is, you know.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
So you're talking about self soothing.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Absolutely, self soothing we sway. So that's the only thing
that I would encourage. But but not with tappers. And
if you know a lay person tried to order tappers,
now they have a lot of questions to ask you
before they send them to you. You have to have
a lot of proof of how much even MBR you've had.
And like I said, those type things, but self soothing,
you absolutely encourage that and I do that a lot.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
Okay, Okay, so you've already talked a little bit about
how you see the suid scores go down between sessions,
but can you also talk about any other improvements that
you see kind of throughout the course of treatment with
EMBR Yes.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
I think coming out of trauma, there are four behaviors
that that people lean to in order to in order
to survive. Fight, flight, freezing, a piece. You know. Fight
is that being angry and defensive. Flight a lot of
times is being suicidal. Drugs and alcohol. Most people that
are suicidal, I don't think they want to die. They
just want to stop hurting. People want to end their pain,
(26:46):
not their life. Drugs and alcohol is flight behavior. They
get drunk, they get high. You don't have to feel
any pain. Freeze it's just kind of numb. You're checked out.
And a piece is becoming that people pleaser to the
point of even being abused. Often those four behaviors they
try to take care of you. Coming out of EMDR
A lot of times people will realize I don't use
(27:08):
those behaviors as much as I used to, or am
using them now with the right people. So that's a
marker for me as a clinician that I look for.
What has your fight behavior looked like, your need to
please so that people won't hurt you or leave you?
What has that looked like? How are you gauging that?
And that's exactly what I look for, just behaviorally. How
(27:30):
has therapy manifested therapy to me? The work is never
in your office, it's outside of your office. How does
that enhance the quality of life? So that's exactly what
I look for, and have clients just report that back
to me, because unprocessed trauma just leaves you hyper vigilant.
You're waiting on that next hit to the point that
(27:51):
you sabotage it or you even cause it all in
an attempt to protect yourself, but it ends up causing
new traumas. If that's my calmed down and an embr
helps to calm that down, got you.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
I was not aware of the appease reaction, Kelly. So
I've learned so much to just hear you talk, but
the appeased reaction was a new one for me. It
definitely helps to kind of bring to light some things
when we hear about people having repeated traumas. And the
point that you mentioned about ending up maybe in continuing
abusive relationships because maybe they are trying to appease, would
(28:27):
then lead to multiple traumas and joy.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
That is the biggest one for African American women, Oh god,
that is the biggest one that appeased. And that apeace
behavior is or you want my money, my mind, my body,
what you want, whatever you want out do it. Just
don't leave me and just don't hurt me. You know,
that's the biggest one for us. And so one of
my new favorite quotes about that we set ourselves on
(28:50):
fire to keep other people warm, not realizing I am
now working on a new trauma because I'm just trying
to get them not to leave me and not to
hurt me. And it's survival. We know how to survive.
We don't know how to thrive. Yeah, you know, it's survival.
But for Black women that appease, we're either angry or
we are appeasing, two total opposite, you know, the polarities
(29:15):
between that I'm fighting angry or try my best to
please you, right, and all of that is surviving, try
not to relive the impact of whatever that trauma was,
and then again working on new traumas and then mad
at myself because why do I keep going back to
this situation that doesn't benefit me, But I think all
(29:36):
of it is a part of just unresolved trauma, being
educated about this is what I'm doing and why.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Yeah, those are very good points, Kelly. So what resources
can you give us for anybody who wants to maybe
learn more about E and D R. And I also
want you to maybe talk about like if somebody listens
to this episode and thinks, oh, that's something that I
really would like to try. Is there some kind of
like directory your national organization where people can find like
(30:02):
E M d R trained therapist.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
Yes, there is www. Dot MDREA, E M d R
I a dot com or just google E M d
R and whoever you go to that's trained in E
M d R. They need to be a level two
train E M b R. That's the highest level that
you can go. But you want to be a level
two train E M d R. Level one is a
(30:26):
person that's getting trained that can do a little bit
of a con save place but not necessarily reprocessing the trauma.
So googling that you can find a level two train
M b R and any clinicians that that would like
to use it as a tool. I definitely think it's
beneficial because the foundational parts of E M d R.
(30:47):
Even if you don't do the bilateral stimulation, the foundational
component is very important to be able to do talk
therapy in my opinion, and that same information can be
found on the E M d R website. The same
information can be found, and the more you use it,
you kind of tweak it to get it to your
personality and the population of people that you use. The
(31:10):
more you use it with anything, the sharper you get
with being able to use it. It is definitely my
go to. I like using it a lot, very very effective.
Let me say this with children, very effective with children.
It doesn't take them a long time to process. The
reason is because they don't have a lot of memory,
so they go directly to what that event is. Most
(31:31):
of my adult patients often talk about how much better
they would be if they had gotten the therapy at twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen.
So many different decisions they probably would have made because
it would have been able to just kind of pluck
up that you know, that that template that's been so negative.
So it's very very very effective with the children as well.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
So also any resources like for maybe clients who are
interested in learning more about like EMDR and how he
can be useful. Any like udios or books that you
really like.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
I love France A. Shapiro was a founder of em DR,
So anything you read by Francin Shapiro, she was a
founder of EMDR. She discovered it in nineteen eighty nine.
She I'm so sorry, I can't think of the title,
but I think the body keeps the score is one
that the clinicians go to a lot. The unspoken voice
(32:26):
in an unspoken voice by doctor Peter Levine that he
talks about trauma. And I heard doctor Levine speak, if
I may say this joy at a trauma conference and
he showed pictures of the nine eleven building, nine eleven
when that happened in our country, and he kind of said,
you see the people in the pictures that are running,
that are moving, They're probably going to be okay. PTSD
(32:50):
in trauma is all about this feeling of being stuck.
So the MDR process helps to get you unstuck. That
makes sense, yes, little, you know, so I often think
about that because most people with PTSD and traumas it's
feeling a trap and So Peter Levine talks about that
a lot in his book in an unspoken voice of
(33:11):
what that looks like. But the body keeps the scores
probably one of the leading ones, and talking about just
trauma and PTSD and some of the benefits of VMVR okay,
and you know you can google and YouTube, you know,
message boards. Clinicians are doing some awesome things with it,
some awesome things with it. I mean it's almost a
grab bag of learning the foundational part of it first
(33:32):
and then tweaking it to your practice of what you're
willing to do. I think everybody needs to be trained
in it. But that's just me because it blows a
myth away that you got to be in therapy for
the rest of your life to work on trauma. People
think this has got to be years of therapy to
undo this stuff. That myth is gone. It goes away.
(33:53):
You don't have to work on it forever, you know,
six to eight sessions. That's kind of the you know
what I'm to do with clients, whether that's the bilott
of stimulation or not, but I definitely see a lot
of movement and EMDR helps you jumpstart that. Gotcha.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
So Kelly I also want you to talk to us
more about your practice and where we can find you
online in any social media handles you want to share.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
Okay. I am in Memphis, Tennessee. Love being in Memphis,
and I'm located in Midtown. My practice is the Mental
and Emotional Resource Center incorporated in me RCI Mercy. I've
been here since twenty eleven. Social media, I do have
a YouTube channel that's called Life Management with Kelly with
(34:39):
is the W and the slash and Kelly is k
e l I and I'm talking about my work in
trauma and PTSD on YouTube. I am contracted at the
local behavior Health hospital here in Memphis and the director
of grief and trauma therapy there. They've only had two
directors and the first one was there about nineteen years,
(35:00):
with her for five of those and when she left,
I'm number two. So most people if they see me
in the hospital, many of them will follow me outside
of the hospital. You know, in the city, I'm known
for my work with PTSD and trauma, so that's where
a lot of my referral sources. That's where they come from.
And as I said, I do this week in week
out with child in adolescent, whether it's in the hospital,
(35:22):
in my office geriatric adult. I use this skill a lot.
So sometimes people say, and this may sound arrogant, is
there anybody you know that as good as you with
this type therapy? And I often say, joy, there are
not many clinical clinicians in this city that have as
much experience as I have because I do it week
(35:42):
in and week out with various populations, and so the
more you do it, the sharper you get with it.
So I am a clinical supervisor now and to proved
clinical supervisor. I do have two supervisors that are trained
in trauma that are shadowing me at the hospital and
even in my practice, and I'm so excited with what
they will also be able to do with learning this
(36:05):
tooluse I can see everybody right right, I can't, but again,
I do enjoy it. So I'm found in Memphis. I
don't know if you want my website or.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
Yeah, it'll be included in the show notes, which you
can share it now.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
Okay. It is www dot Mercymmphis dot org that just
talks about how to get to me and things that
I've done in the community.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
Perfect. Well, thank you so much for sharing all of
this information with us today. Kelly, I definitely, like I said,
learn quite a bit.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
Thank you for having me, George, You're welch.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
I'm so glad Kelly was able to join me for
this conversation. To learn more about her and her work,
visit the show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot Com
SASH Session three oh seven, and don't forget to text
two of your girls and tell them to check out
the episode right now. If you're looking for a therapist area,
check out our therapist directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot
(37:04):
com SASH directory. And if you want to continue digging
into this topic or just be in community with other sisters,
come on over and join us in the Sister Circle.
It's our cozy corner of the Internet designed just for
black women. You can join us at community dot Therapy
for Blackgirls dot com. This episode was produced by FRIEDA.
Lucas and Elise Ellis and editing was done by Dennis
(37:25):
and Bradford. Thank y'all so much for joining me again
this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation with
you all real soon. Take good care. What have you heard?
My first book, Sisterhood Heels, is available for pre order
right now at Sisterhoodheels dot com. Grab your copy to
(37:46):
learn more about what role you play in your sister circles,
why difficult conversations can make relationships closer, and steps to
take when it's time to end a friendship. We'll have
lots to talk about this summer, and you don't want
to miss it. Pre Order your copy of Sisterhood Heels
right now at sisterhood Heels dot com
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy Hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:57):
for joining me for session three oh seven of the
Therapy for Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our conversation
after a word from our sponsors. Have you heard? My
first book, Sisterhood Heels, is available for pre order right
now at sisterhood Heels dot com. Grab your copy to
learn more about what role you play in your sister circles,
(01:18):
why difficult conversations can make relationships closer, and steps to
take when it's time to end of friendship. We'll have
lots to talk about this summer, and you don't want
to miss it. Pre Order your copy of Sisterhood Heels
right now at sisterhood Heels dot com. This week, we're
revisiting an episode from our archives and diving into the
(01:40):
world of EMDR. EMDR stands for imovement, desensitization and reprocessing
and is a treatment method designed for treating trauma, PTSD, anxiety,
and panic. Our guest for this In Case You Misted
episode is Kelly Davis, a licensed professional counselor based in Memphis, Tennessee.
Kelly and I explored what EMDR is, how it works,
(02:04):
and how it differs from traditional talk therapy. If something
resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share with
us on social media using the hashtag TBG in session
or join us over in the sister circles to talk
more in depth about the episode. You can join us
at community dot therapy for Blackgirls dot Com. Here's our conversation. So, Kelly,
(02:28):
thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
You're welcome. So you are here to talk with us
all about e MDR. So, first of all, can you
tell us what those letters stand for.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
EMDR stands for Imovement, Desensitization, Reprocessing.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Okay, So what is that EMDR.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Is a type therapy modality that creates RIM sleep, rapid
eyemovement sleep at a waking state. It is believed that
a lot of healing and repairing and restoring takes place
in rimsleep. So essentially what MDR does is mimic rimsleep,
(03:12):
but the client or patient is awake and very aware
of what's going on. Many people mistaken for hypnosis. It's
not hypnosis. They're awake, they're alert, and they're just kind
of guided through correcting areas in their lives that need
to be corrected.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Okay, and so what is involved in this? Like it
sounds like this may require like some kind of equipment
or does it involve any kind of equipment?
Speaker 2 (03:39):
It can involve equipment. When it was first discovered and
taught to different clinicians, clinicians were encouraged to create the
eye movement process by taking two fingers and waving them
back and forth in front of a patient, and patients
or clients were asked to track the movement of the
fingers going back and forth. And there's some polin issues
(04:01):
that still use that. I personally use what are considered
tappers that will bilaterally stimulate patients and that's what creates
the rimsleep process. As long as the eyes are moving
back and forth, then we are mimicking rimsleep. And that's
the whole method of what's going on, the eye movement
(04:23):
going back and forth.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Okay, So these tappers that you're talking about, what would
they be doing? You say they stimulate bilateral.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Yeah, So what I do when I'm using Mdr Joy
I will have clients or to hold the tappers in
each hand and you can create the intensity of how
they buzz back and forth. You can also control how
fast the movements go back and forth. Some clients, I
will have them to sit on top of them, to
put one tapper under each leg or under each foot,
(04:57):
because reprocessing traumatic events, you know, it's painful, and so
when people get tearful, I like for their hands to
be free if they would want to reach for kleenics
or clench their hands. But every clinician is different.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
Okay, okay, So what clinical issues is e MD are
typically used for.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
It's typically used for people survivors of traumatic experiences, primarily
people with post traumatic stress disorder that have these disturbing
events that try to process on their own. People try
to work them out on their own, and the way
they try to get worked out oftentimes are through nightmares
and flashbacks. But nightmares people wake up and so they
(05:39):
stop the process of trying to work through a traumatic experience,
or if there's a flashback, the inclination is let's go
ahead and stop it from happening. EMDR will go hit
and encourage that in control setting and controlled environment.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
Okay, so this this feels like, is this something that
works in tandem with something like cognitive behavioral therapy or
is this like a different approach.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
I definitely think it could work in tandem with CBT.
I've had a lot of clients that come to me
they've used cognitive behavior therapy to try and to work
through traumatic experiences. But that kind of keeps you intellectual,
you know, just kind of in your head EMDR. And
that's what I like so much about it. It encourages
(06:26):
the emotional aspect that goes along with traumatic situations that happen.
Most traumatic situations that happen to us, they kind of
freeze a story. We're kind of stuck in time, so
we can feel all of the all of the painful
emotions are still stuck there. EMDR encourages becoming unstuck, and
(06:50):
sometimes CBT just cannot reach a client at that level
because EMDR can be very physiological. It is trapped in
the body. There's some research that talks about MS multiple
sclerosis could be considered trapped trauma. Trauma is trapped in
the body. So EMDR encourages the processing at a cellular level,
(07:11):
and that's a place that talk therapy tries really hard
to reach. But in my experience, it can't quite get
to it. And most clients will come to me and say,
I've talked about this issue. I'm so I'm tired of
talking about it. The talking gives it the relief, but
it just doesn't get it to the level that that
EMDR will will give a client too that I've seen.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Okay, so this this all sounds really interesting and I
want to kind of, you know, help everybody understand like
what this exactly looks like. So somebody comes to you,
you know, after a traumatic experience, maybe like a bad
car accident or something, what kinds of things would happen
in like the first couple of sessions, and what would
(07:54):
like a course of treatment look like with em DR
to help work through the trauma of a car accident.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Okay, so that's a good example. Somebody comes to me
with the car accident. EMDR has phases that you go through.
The first phase would be the history taking asking the
client exactly what happened, and from events that happened to us,
we develop a narrative that oftentimes is self deprecating. Things
we begin to believe about ourselves based on what happened,
(08:22):
and the belief oftentimes could be I'm not safe, I'm
not okay, I'm stuck, I'm going to die now. If
the client made it to my office, of course we
know that narrative is not true, but they're still living
with that narrative that keeps them very hypervigilant. That could
keep them from getting back into a car again or
just not wanting to drive. So the EMDR process would
(08:45):
take a client essentially back to that event and work
hard to change the narrative. And you go back to
the event with bilateral simulation, asking a client to close
their eyes, asking them to think about what the worst
part of that was while they're closing their eyes. It
just depends on the client, but I will ask that
they will talk to me through what's going on. For example,
(09:08):
a client may say, I see the red light changing,
and you know, I don't want to be there, don't
want to get out. So what I would do as
a therapist is almost kind of whole that scene and
have a client sitting on my couch. Imagine going back
to the client that was driving the car. Does that
make sense what I'm.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
Saying, So kind of going back to that moment.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
Going back to that moment while you're still being bilaterally
stimulated mm hm, and asking the client, you know, what
is it you would like to say right now, and
without prompting, most clients are able to say, you know,
you're gonna be okay, You're gonna make it through. It's
not gonna be good at the same time, you're gonna
make it through. So with the bilateral stimulation, now the
(09:52):
body in the brain is buying into the narrative that
I'm safe, I'm gonna be okay, not coming out unscathed,
but still say I survived this incident, and the bilateral
simulation helps the client to take on that new belief,
thereby releasing some of the anxiety that's associated with it.
(10:13):
Prior to an MDR session.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
More from my conversation with Kelly after the Break.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Have you heard?
Speaker 1 (10:24):
My first book, Sisterhood Heels, is available for pre order
right now at Sisterhoodheels dot com. Grab your copy to
learn more about what role you play in your sister circles,
why difficult conversations can make relationships closer, and steps to
take when it's time to end a friendship. We'll have
lots to talk about this summer, and you don't want
to miss it. Pre order your copy of Sisterhood Heels
(10:44):
right now at sisterhood Heels dot com. So it sounds
like maybe like your first couple of sessions are really
kind of getting a lot of the background information about
like setting the scene for the trauma so that you
can then use that in your EMDR sessions.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Absolutely, it's setting the scene for it. And in this
day in time, Joe, you have people with a lot
of complex trauma, and it's not uncommon to realize I
was in that car wreck and I was unsafe, but
now I also remember there was another time in my
life that I felt the same way. So it's very
common to discover other traumas coming out of just one
(11:24):
session and the whole narrative associated with what happened, possibly
long before the car accident. Now, there's some research that
shows that one em DR session can be equivalent till
till about five talk therapy sessions in one of them,
and there was some research there they would be equivalent
(11:44):
to twelve talk therapy sessions, especially dealing with veterans of
a post traumatic stress disorder. Just kind of the relief
that you get out of one of those sessions. It
encourages clients to come up really with their own insights
and their own narratives, would without being prompted by the clinician.
If I fall and break my arm, they're going to
(12:05):
take me to the door. The doctor will set my
arm in a cast, and as long as it's supported,
our creator has given our body everything it needs to heal,
that bone will go back stronger than ever. EMDR is
kind of like taking the brain and setting it correctly
around what happened, and so then the thinking goes in
an area that's helpful and not an area that's maladaptive.
(12:28):
It sets it correctly, and the brain has the potential
to heal, just like any bone in our bodies, It
just has to be set correctly.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
Wow, that's a really powerful analogy, Kelly. I appreciate that. Yeah, yeah,
so you mentioned and I would imagine I don't know
how early in a session this would happen. When you said,
if they could go back to that moment, like right
at the red light, they would be telling themselves you're
gonna be okay. I would imagine that doesn't happen in
like the first session when you are using EMDR.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
And I will say this if I could digression us
a little bit. You know, in the first session, there's
a tool you can use with a EMDR called creating
a calm safe place. So by being bilaterally stimulated, you
help the client to create a place that is calm
and safe that's only for them, and you talk them
through moments of that using EMDR. So let's say, if
(13:23):
I ask them to go to the red light, if
that's too much for you, I will say, remember we
created the calm safe place. It just depends on the
amount of emotional resourcing a person has that a clinician
would have to assess to see if they are ready
for a quote unquote red light sceneman. So you're exactly right.
The assessment important It depends on the emotional resourcing of
(13:47):
somebody if they're equipped enough to be able to handle
a thing like that. So depending on the resourcing, they
could be ready during the first session and then maybe not.
But you get that in the history take it part
part of before you.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Start, Okay, So those assessment sessions really do more than
just get like the background of the trauma. They also
talk about like what the person has been doing to
cope with the trauma, like how ready are they for
this intense type of experience?
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Absolutely? Absolutely, you're exactly right. And sometimes certain medications will
affect how effective EMDR can be. You know, most of
the time Benzo's and opiates work against the whole process
because that's supposed to relax you. You're not supposed to be heightened.
But there are points of EMDR that can be very heightened.
(14:38):
And if you're on certain medications, you can't quite get
to where it is you need to be in order
for the process to even be worthwhile. Right, So I've
had people you know in the hospital that I work
with that I go back to the position, how far
can we cut back on this medication before we even
try this process, because you would hate to re traumatize somebody.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
Right, So I want to go back to something that
you pointed out that I find really interesting. So you
mentioned that it's been your experience in some of your
EMDR work that one trauma will then unearth these other traumas.
So I'm curious how then you begin working with like
multiple traumas through the EMDR sessions.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
It's a very good question, Joy. We ask for a
Suedge level based on a trauma, and SUGE s u
d s It stands for a subjective unit of distress.
And so when the scale of zero to ten will
say how bad when you think about this event today?
How bad it does it bother you? Ten it bothers
me a lot. Zero doesn't bother me at all personally.
(15:41):
If a SUGE is five or above, I feel like
that's active trauma and it's probably affecting your life today.
So the events that you know, if one trauma unearths
another one, I'll assess and I'll get a SUDGE level,
And if that distress level is high, then that's something
that we need to work on. We need to process
(16:01):
now something I do with my clients and my outpatient office.
I'll do what's called an envelope system. When I believe
that there are multiple traumas, and what that is is
I ask clients to get an index card. Just give
that event in your life a title, write that title down,
put it in an envelope, and seal it. We don't
open the envelope until you come in my office, so
(16:23):
that means I'm not ignoring it. I know exactly where
it is when it's time to deal with it. That's
when I take it to session. Because most people with
PTSD are very afraid with multiple traumas of losing control,
so sometimes the envelope system gives them a sense of control. Now,
each title that they name an event, I ask for
a sudge level and people can come to work on
(16:45):
a car wreck, but I'll look at a sudge level
that happened twelve years ago, and this thing is still
at a ten. It's like, Okay, WHOA, this holds a
lot of weight right now, and we start the processing
from that point.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
Okay, okay, got you. So you mentioned that they would
hold it until they come to your office. Is there
a place that this is the EMDR not done in
your office.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
It is done in my office. But the point that
I give people the assignment, you know, just to say
that I'm not ignoring it. I'm not forgetting it. I
wrote it down for Kelly. It's on my dresser. I
can't wait to take these to her office. I'm not
asking you to deal with it at home or talk
to your spouse or your kids about it. We got
it on paper, it's sealed and all of the EMDR.
(17:31):
You know that I do outpatient takes place in my
office unless I'm seeing patients in a hospital, but often
in my office if I'm working on one thing and
I assess that there several others, and that is the
case joy with a lot of African Americans, several others,
meaning a theme of traumatic experiences that stand out. They
(17:52):
really do favor and like the whole envelope system.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
Mm hmm. Yeah, I can imagine that does feel a
little comforting, like they can kind of canted so to speak.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
Yeah, so you mentioned you know that you found that,
particularly with African Americans, they find that comforting. And I'm
wondering if there are any special considerations related to E
M d R when using with the with the black community.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
Prior to getting to we want to do. Em DR
is convincing the African American community that what you're dealing
with is trauma and is PTSD. We ask people out
a lot of times, what's wrong with you? Or people
may ask what's wrong with me, when the correct question
is what happened to me? What happened to you? And
it's getting African Americans to understand the things that happened
(18:39):
to them, things that happened to us. Maybe they were
not healthy, and maybe they were not intended to be harmful,
but they were. So it's just kind of wrapping my
mind around that this really is an issue and this
is something that really has affected me. Once there's a
buy in that here's something that I need to work
on because a big part of it, too, Joe, is
(19:01):
establishing trust. And I have to earn my way, in
my opinion, especially with African Americans, into doing something like
emd R, because the first thing they ask, okay, is
this hypnosis? What does this mean? But earning my way
into that, but getting them to understand that what's going
on with me is unresolved trauma. The EMDR process then
(19:21):
becomes a little easier because it is a very spiritual
process and one thing I use with African Americans, they
are quick to go back to. For example, I asked them,
if you were sexually abused as a little girl, who
would you like to take back to help rescue that
little girl? Why the bilateral stimulation is going on. It's
(19:43):
very common for them to say, I want to take
God back, I want to take Jesus back, my big
Mama back, I want to take those So to allow
them to do that and for them to become tearful
around that in a good way, they buy into the
process a lot more. Or if I'm being clear on
what I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
Yeah, yeah, And I know in some previous conversations before
we started recording, you talked about the fact that e
MDR can be really helpful because it allows you to
get to a place that sometimes words can't. And I
think that that would be particularly helpful for a lot
of black women because there does tend to be like
(20:23):
a guard there in wanting to share emotions. So if
we're getting at it in a different way, then it
kind of opens up the space for the words to follow.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
You're exactly right, And here's the thing in doing when
you talk about unresolved trauma some of the events around
what happened to us can be really shaming. What I
like about EMDR is that it takes an element out
of it because as the clinician, I don't have to
know the details of what happened and how many times
and where you were, and that's not nearly as important
to me. What I'm looking for is that belief that
(20:54):
you have about yourself because of what happened. That's the
only thing I'm really concerned about, because that's really the
thing that's kind of reakin habit, this belief that you
have about yourself based on what happened. So EMDR helps
to go back and change that narrative realizing that I
was actually strong because I survived that, so I can
(21:15):
take off the layer that I'm unworthy and I'm not
good enough, so you look at the SuDS going down
that when I think about the situation now, I'm not
at a ten. I'm at about it two. It's things,
but I can handle it a whole lot better. And
when people come with sexual trauma, their fear is that
you're going to force me to talk about it. If
somebody wants to talk, I'm not going to shut them down.
(21:38):
But that's not the expectation.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
So I can imagine in these sessions that you're bringing
up a lot. There's likely even if it didn't start
with emotion, there may be a lot of emotion kind
of coming out of it. So I'm wondering, like what
kinds of like homework or like what kinds of exercises
or grounding kinds of things go along with like the
that goes on in your office.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
I do give the assignment of letter writing to the
part of you that endure that trauma. And the hope
is what I'm looking for is that the person that's
in my office or after the therapy, that we've invoked
a little bit more compassion, because it's amazing when we
come out of trauma, we're so upset with ourselves and
(22:23):
we beat ourselves up and expect ourselves to heal all
at the same time, and that just kind of doesn't work.
It exacerbates even more trauma. Actually, But the homework assignment
of definitely writing that letter and giving them permission to
talk from the space of the trauma, meaning what does
that eight year old liddle girl have to say today
(22:45):
to a forty year old oftentime eight year olds, thank
you for forgiving me, for realizing and it really wasn't
my fault. And that's where the grounding comes in after
the session is over and sometimes even during the session.
Every patient, every session is different, but not only grounding
the whole integration process of it. Integration meaning the d
(23:07):
and MDR we desensitize it. Let's take the sting out
because I did survive and I am okay. Now we're
going to reprocess this and realize just how strong I
actually was to even make it through that situation. So
the letter writing helps with that.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
So it sounds like you don't use like the bilateral
stimulation necessarily in every session. Like a lot of what
you're talking about is like narrative and like cognitive restructuring
in some ways. So it's exactly right. Okay, So there's
also a lot of like talking going on maybe with
in the sessions that don't involve the stimulation.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Yes, you are exactly right. The biledal stimulation with creating
the rim sleep. It helps to get through the painful
parts of the situation. Sometimes when I see a client
is really struggling or really tearful and clenching. As I said,
there are different speeds and various intensities on the tapers
that I use, So I'll turn them up just a
(24:01):
little in order to kind of make it over that,
you know, make it over that hump. And there are
times joy that I've turned them down and the client said, no,
turn it back up. I'm in this place. I want
to process that, I want to go ahead and get through.
But you're exactly right. The bilotal simulation is not necessarily
used through every setting, you know, every session regarding that.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
More from my conversation with Kelly after the break. Have
you heard? My first book, Sisterhood Heels, is available for
pre order right now at sisterhood Heels dot com. Grab
your copy to learn more about what role you play
in your sister circles, why difficult conversations can make relationships closer,
and steps to take when it's time to end a friendship.
(24:44):
We'll have lots to talk about this summer, and you
don't want to miss it. Pre Order your copy of
Sisterhood Heels right now at sisterhood Heels dot com. And
is there a part of this that that a client
would try to do at home? Like could a client
induce this for themselves?
Speaker 2 (25:05):
Well? That's the first thing I say. Please, don't go
home taping.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
On the body.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Go home and tell people close your eyes. Let me
sure you what I learned from telling. There are people
that can order their own tappers, but you have to
give a lot of paperwork into how much MD are
you've actually had. You know, another therapist has to know
that this is what you're doing. What I have encouraged
clients to do is to kind of create their own
(25:31):
tapping when I do the calm safe place element that
you could help to enhance a safe place for you.
And it's really not tapping, George, because we bilaterally stimulate
all the time. We rock side to side. That's what
that is, you know.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
So you're talking about self soothing.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Absolutely, self soothing we sway. So that's the only thing
that I would encourage. But but not with tappers. And
if you know a lay person tried to order tappers,
now they have a lot of questions to ask you
before they send them to you. You have to have
a lot of proof of how much even MBR you've had.
And like I said, those type things, but self soothing,
you absolutely encourage that and I do that a lot.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
Okay, Okay, so you've already talked a little bit about
how you see the suid scores go down between sessions,
but can you also talk about any other improvements that
you see kind of throughout the course of treatment with
EMBR Yes.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
I think coming out of trauma, there are four behaviors
that that people lean to in order to in order
to survive. Fight, flight, freezing, a piece. You know. Fight
is that being angry and defensive. Flight a lot of
times is being suicidal. Drugs and alcohol. Most people that
are suicidal, I don't think they want to die. They
just want to stop hurting. People want to end their pain,
(26:46):
not their life. Drugs and alcohol is flight behavior. They
get drunk, they get high. You don't have to feel
any pain. Freeze it's just kind of numb. You're checked out.
And a piece is becoming that people pleaser to the
point of even being abused. Often those four behaviors they
try to take care of you. Coming out of EMDR
A lot of times people will realize I don't use
(27:08):
those behaviors as much as I used to, or am
using them now with the right people. So that's a
marker for me as a clinician that I look for.
What has your fight behavior looked like, your need to
please so that people won't hurt you or leave you?
What has that looked like? How are you gauging that?
And that's exactly what I look for, just behaviorally. How
(27:30):
has therapy manifested therapy to me? The work is never
in your office, it's outside of your office. How does
that enhance the quality of life? So that's exactly what
I look for, and have clients just report that back
to me, because unprocessed trauma just leaves you hyper vigilant.
You're waiting on that next hit to the point that
(27:51):
you sabotage it or you even cause it all in
an attempt to protect yourself, but it ends up causing
new traumas. If that's my calmed down and an embr
helps to calm that down, got you.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
I was not aware of the appease reaction, Kelly. So
I've learned so much to just hear you talk, but
the appeased reaction was a new one for me. It
definitely helps to kind of bring to light some things
when we hear about people having repeated traumas. And the
point that you mentioned about ending up maybe in continuing
abusive relationships because maybe they are trying to appease, would
(28:27):
then lead to multiple traumas and joy.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
That is the biggest one for African American women, Oh god,
that is the biggest one that appeased. And that apeace
behavior is or you want my money, my mind, my body,
what you want, whatever you want out do it. Just
don't leave me and just don't hurt me. You know,
that's the biggest one for us. And so one of
my new favorite quotes about that we set ourselves on
(28:50):
fire to keep other people warm, not realizing I am
now working on a new trauma because I'm just trying
to get them not to leave me and not to
hurt me. And it's survival. We know how to survive.
We don't know how to thrive. Yeah, you know, it's survival.
But for Black women that appease, we're either angry or
we are appeasing, two total opposite, you know, the polarities
(29:15):
between that I'm fighting angry or try my best to
please you, right, and all of that is surviving, try
not to relive the impact of whatever that trauma was,
and then again working on new traumas and then mad
at myself because why do I keep going back to
this situation that doesn't benefit me, But I think all
(29:36):
of it is a part of just unresolved trauma, being
educated about this is what I'm doing and why.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Yeah, those are very good points, Kelly. So what resources
can you give us for anybody who wants to maybe
learn more about E and D R. And I also
want you to maybe talk about like if somebody listens
to this episode and thinks, oh, that's something that I
really would like to try. Is there some kind of
like directory your national organization where people can find like
(30:02):
E M d R trained therapist.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
Yes, there is www. Dot MDREA, E M d R
I a dot com or just google E M d
R and whoever you go to that's trained in E
M d R. They need to be a level two
train E M b R. That's the highest level that
you can go. But you want to be a level
two train E M d R. Level one is a
(30:26):
person that's getting trained that can do a little bit
of a con save place but not necessarily reprocessing the trauma.
So googling that you can find a level two train
M b R and any clinicians that that would like
to use it as a tool. I definitely think it's
beneficial because the foundational parts of E M d R.
(30:47):
Even if you don't do the bilateral stimulation, the foundational
component is very important to be able to do talk
therapy in my opinion, and that same information can be
found on the E M d R website. The same
information can be found, and the more you use it,
you kind of tweak it to get it to your
personality and the population of people that you use. The
(31:10):
more you use it with anything, the sharper you get
with being able to use it. It is definitely my
go to. I like using it a lot, very very effective.
Let me say this with children, very effective with children.
It doesn't take them a long time to process. The
reason is because they don't have a lot of memory,
so they go directly to what that event is. Most
(31:31):
of my adult patients often talk about how much better
they would be if they had gotten the therapy at twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen.
So many different decisions they probably would have made because
it would have been able to just kind of pluck
up that you know, that that template that's been so negative.
So it's very very very effective with the children as well.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
So also any resources like for maybe clients who are
interested in learning more about like EMDR and how he
can be useful. Any like udios or books that you
really like.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
I love France A. Shapiro was a founder of em DR,
So anything you read by Francin Shapiro, she was a
founder of EMDR. She discovered it in nineteen eighty nine.
She I'm so sorry, I can't think of the title,
but I think the body keeps the score is one
that the clinicians go to a lot. The unspoken voice
(32:26):
in an unspoken voice by doctor Peter Levine that he
talks about trauma. And I heard doctor Levine speak, if
I may say this joy at a trauma conference and
he showed pictures of the nine eleven building, nine eleven
when that happened in our country, and he kind of said,
you see the people in the pictures that are running,
that are moving, They're probably going to be okay. PTSD
(32:50):
in trauma is all about this feeling of being stuck.
So the MDR process helps to get you unstuck. That
makes sense, yes, little, you know, so I often think
about that because most people with PTSD and traumas it's
feeling a trap and So Peter Levine talks about that
a lot in his book in an unspoken voice of
(33:11):
what that looks like. But the body keeps the scores
probably one of the leading ones, and talking about just
trauma and PTSD and some of the benefits of VMVR okay,
and you know you can google and YouTube, you know,
message boards. Clinicians are doing some awesome things with it,
some awesome things with it. I mean it's almost a
grab bag of learning the foundational part of it first
(33:32):
and then tweaking it to your practice of what you're
willing to do. I think everybody needs to be trained
in it. But that's just me because it blows a
myth away that you got to be in therapy for
the rest of your life to work on trauma. People
think this has got to be years of therapy to
undo this stuff. That myth is gone. It goes away.
(33:53):
You don't have to work on it forever, you know,
six to eight sessions. That's kind of the you know
what I'm to do with clients, whether that's the bilott
of stimulation or not, but I definitely see a lot
of movement and EMDR helps you jumpstart that. Gotcha.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
So Kelly I also want you to talk to us
more about your practice and where we can find you
online in any social media handles you want to share.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
Okay. I am in Memphis, Tennessee. Love being in Memphis,
and I'm located in Midtown. My practice is the Mental
and Emotional Resource Center incorporated in me RCI Mercy. I've
been here since twenty eleven. Social media, I do have
a YouTube channel that's called Life Management with Kelly with
(34:39):
is the W and the slash and Kelly is k
e l I and I'm talking about my work in
trauma and PTSD on YouTube. I am contracted at the
local behavior Health hospital here in Memphis and the director
of grief and trauma therapy there. They've only had two
directors and the first one was there about nineteen years,
(35:00):
with her for five of those and when she left,
I'm number two. So most people if they see me
in the hospital, many of them will follow me outside
of the hospital. You know, in the city, I'm known
for my work with PTSD and trauma, so that's where
a lot of my referral sources. That's where they come from.
And as I said, I do this week in week
out with child in adolescent, whether it's in the hospital,
(35:22):
in my office geriatric adult. I use this skill a lot.
So sometimes people say, and this may sound arrogant, is
there anybody you know that as good as you with
this type therapy? And I often say, joy, there are
not many clinical clinicians in this city that have as
much experience as I have because I do it week
(35:42):
in and week out with various populations, and so the
more you do it, the sharper you get with it.
So I am a clinical supervisor now and to proved
clinical supervisor. I do have two supervisors that are trained
in trauma that are shadowing me at the hospital and
even in my practice, and I'm so excited with what
they will also be able to do with learning this
(36:05):
tooluse I can see everybody right right, I can't, but again,
I do enjoy it. So I'm found in Memphis. I
don't know if you want my website or.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
Yeah, it'll be included in the show notes, which you
can share it now.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
Okay. It is www dot Mercymmphis dot org that just
talks about how to get to me and things that
I've done in the community.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
Perfect. Well, thank you so much for sharing all of
this information with us today. Kelly, I definitely, like I said,
learn quite a bit.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
Thank you for having me, George, You're welch.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
I'm so glad Kelly was able to join me for
this conversation. To learn more about her and her work,
visit the show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot Com
SASH Session three oh seven, and don't forget to text
two of your girls and tell them to check out
the episode right now. If you're looking for a therapist area,
check out our therapist directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot
(37:04):
com SASH directory. And if you want to continue digging
into this topic or just be in community with other sisters,
come on over and join us in the Sister Circle.
It's our cozy corner of the Internet designed just for
black women. You can join us at community dot Therapy
for Blackgirls dot com. This episode was produced by FRIEDA.
Lucas and Elise Ellis and editing was done by Dennis
(37:25):
and Bradford. Thank y'all so much for joining me again
this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation with
you all real soon. Take good care. What have you heard?
My first book, Sisterhood Heels, is available for pre order
right now at Sisterhoodheels dot com. Grab your copy to
(37:46):
learn more about what role you play in your sister circles,
why difficult conversations can make relationships closer, and steps to
take when it's time to end a friendship. We'll have
lots to talk about this summer, and you don't want
to miss it. Pre Order your copy of Sisterhood Heels
right now at sisterhood Heels dot com
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