February 14, 2024 • 44 mins
We all deserve to find and have love, but this process can look and feel a little different when you’re navigating the dating scene as a transgender woman. To explore all of the nuances that come with dating as a transgender person, I’m joined by award-winning journalist Daric L. Cottingham. Daric is a proud Southern Black trans woman based in Los Angeles, whose career portfolio includes the LA Times, Harper's Bazaar, ESSENCE, and The Washington Post.
During our conversation, Daric and I discussed some of her experiences navigating dating as a trans woman, including discerning between genuine interest and fetishization, deciding which dating app is right for you, and choosing how to maintain safety when disclosing your identity to a new partner.
About the Podcast
The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:57):
for joining me for session three forty six of the
Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our
conversation after a word from our sponsors. We all deserve
to find and have love, but this process can look
(01:18):
and feel a little different when you're navigating the dating
scene as a transgender woman. To explore all of the
nuances that come with dating as a transgender person, I'm
joined by award winning journalist Derek L. Cottingham. Derek is
a proud Southern Black trans woman based in Los Angeles
whose career portfolio includes The La Times, Harper's Bazaar, Essence,
(01:40):
and The Washington Post. She's also a general board member
of NABJLA, where she strives to make the industry more
inclusive for black journalists. During our conversation, Derek and I
discussed some of her experiences navigating dating as a trans woman,
including discerning between genuine interests and fetishization, deciding which dating
(02:01):
app is right for you, and choosing how to maintain
safety when disclosing your identity to a new partner. If
something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share
with us on social media using the hashtag TVG in Session,
or join us over in the sister circles to talk
more about the episode. You can join us at community
(02:21):
dot therapy for Blackgirls dot com. Here's our conversation. Well,
thank you so much for joining us today.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Derek, Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Yeah, I'm excited to chat with you. So I wonder
if you could take us back to the early stages
of your transition and talk with me about, like, what
did those early experiences, how did that shape what you
felt like dating was going to be.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
So transition is really hard. People sometimes know transition based
on when you start your medical journey when you start
social transitioning. So social transitioning is like when you're going
through the world and letting everyone know these are my pronouns,
this is how I'll be moving when you start wearing
the gender of firm and clothing and leaning more towards
showcasing what the gender that you identify as is social.
(03:10):
And then there's the medical journey to where you go
and start hormone replacement therapy or HRT, whether you're introducing
estrogen or more testa shown into your body or using
lockers for the dominant hormone that your body naturally produces.
And so for me, I started social transitioning a few
(03:31):
years ago, but very much in a very discreete and
secret way for all intentsive purposes. When I would date,
I was dating as a trans woman in my personal life. However,
I had not yet let people know that I was trans,
or really let anyone know until last year of March
is when I made it public and I let my
loved ones and my family and everyone know. And so
(03:54):
I've only been on the medical side of transitioning. It'll
be a year at the end of March.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
So when you started socially transitioning, What were your thoughts
around dating and what that might be like for you.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
For me, it was interesting because a lot of my
dating experiences I had came out as like by and
queer when I was seventeen, and a lot of my
dating experiences were within a queer space, and a lot
of the times femininity was not like the thing that
was sought after, and there was this notion of no facts,
(04:28):
no felms, no this type of thing like if it
was masked for masks, and this is all that people
were interested in.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
And so also growing up in the South and just.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
Being black and growing up in like the Baptist religion
and just real Southern upbringing, there was a lot of
internal interrogation of not feeling like I was disappointing others
by like being my true self, by embracing my womanhood,
embracing my femininity, and always wondering if by being myself
(04:58):
would that mean that I would be alone for the
rest of my life romantically. And so it took a
lot of mental and emotional internal talking with myself and
sitting with the feeling and noticing that when I was
presenting more felm outwardly to people that I was happier,
It would sleep easier at night, I felt better about myself.
(05:19):
And I would literally cringe at heating pronouns, like I
would feel like a sword was stuck into my chest.
And so that was a lot of the mental and
emotional things that I had to work through personally when
I was navigating the dating space too, because it was
this thing of like, what does it mean when femininity
(05:39):
is just not appreciated as much in the dating space
coming from like the queer space of where I was
coming from, and still at the time, I was so unsure.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Now I'm a little bit more clear on things and
know what I'm.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
Attracted to as far as a partner, what I need
from them, What does it mean for sexuality when I'm
dating someone, and things like that, because when I am dating,
I'm typically dating someone that is more mass presenting, whether
it's SIS or trans, and I tend to date people
that are straight by and pansexual, and so now there's
(06:15):
a bit more understanding. But in those early stages, I
was like, I don't know the terminology, I don't have
the knowledge, and coming from the South, and there were
very few like the queerness that you did know was
more you had someone that was either lesbian or that
was gay. But I really didn't know any non binary
or trans people coming from like Texas, Louisiana and just
(06:39):
growing up in that real religious background. And so it
was also not that many like possibility models on TV,
and like the few trans people you did see, they
were usually white women or something, and me being very
aware that my experience is not going to be the
exact same as theirs, and there's not going to be
that same type of mobility, and so it was some time.
(07:00):
I am really trying to be comfortable with that, even
in private while dating.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
I'm glad you brought the media piece into it, because
I'm very curious about that. Can you remember like your
earliest experience of seeing yourself reflected on the screen and
then how that helped to shape your identity?
Speaker 3 (07:17):
Wow, it really wouldn't be the most accurate depiction would
not be until more recently, and it would be with
Uncle Clifford from Pea Valley. It would be the character
that's played by this actress on the SHI who was
also a black trans woman and a journalist, and those
(07:38):
would be the most accurate depictions where I'm like, Okay,
that's me, that's through and through as a black queer Southerner,
as the one that is navigating media space. But also
my transidentity is a very public thing too, because I
transitioned while I was already in my career, and I
also opted not to change my name.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
So it's this thing of like it's.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
A little bit different, of I don't have the option
to live in a stealth way or not really let
it be known that I am trans. And so those
two depictions were more common for me. And then when
I was growing up, I kind of just related to
a lot of more sim and queer characters, Like I
loved all the animated characters that Chris Summer played. I
(08:20):
loved her character in a different world, I felt from her.
And also it would be like other queer characters on
De Grassy you have like Marco, and so I would
identify with aspects of these different people. But not until
more recently did I feel like, Okay, that's exactly carbon
copy like me. And then just as far as like womanhood,
(08:43):
it would be Queen Latifa, especially live in single days,
like when I think of what beauty and womanhood and
stuff looks like for me and the way I expressed it,
it's very Queen Latifa Teona Taylor centric and really look
to like Tracey Hallis Ross and her time on girlfriends
and things. And so it would just be bits and
pieces of like possibility models that I would see in
(09:04):
media and not more recently would it be something that
would be this character encapsulates me as a whole.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
So you mentioned, you know, especially being like a Southerner
and not feeling like there were lots of like mentors
and things to kind of look up to to kind
of help you navigate this dating space. Where did you
find resources like who kind of stepped in the gap
for that or how did you feel those gaps?
Speaker 3 (09:26):
Google a lot of Google, a lot a lot of Google,
And then there are now working in media to have
a few other like transistors that work in media who
understand I can lean on them and ask them a
few questions here and there.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
But before then it was.
Speaker 3 (09:42):
Like reddits and tumblers and these like online resources of
community and basically figuring out all these different types of things.
And so yeah, it was definitely like leaning towards online
spaces of community and find getting different guys and articles
and reading these aspects and helps me put terminology to
(10:03):
things too, and then just reading books as well about
black transidentity.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
So any suggestions for people about how to navigate some
of those spaces, because I think there's a lot of
good there, but maybe not so good also when you're
going into these foreign territories so to speak. So any
suggestions for people, especially younger people who maybe checking out
this episode about like how do you navigate and know
what to pay attention to in online communities.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
I lean on my media literacy training. I lean on
my gut feeling. If I read something from a community
and I'm like, oh, that made me cringe a little
bit or feel uneasy, like maybe this is not the
community where I need to be looking for resources at.
And then if I don't have that feeling and I
feel like, oh this resource was helpful, I'm like, Okay,
let me continue to look. I've never really been a
(10:50):
Reddit type of person until I medically transitioned, and so
I'm on Reddit quite a bit. There's a lot of
different very transcentric spaces on Reddit that are moderated by
trans people, and there are even spaces for people that
are interested in dating trans people of like how to
(11:11):
help them navigate dating someone and using the right terminology,
not slipping up on things, also making sure they're not
fetishizing people, and so redd it's been a resource. TikTok.
There's a few transcreators that I follow on there, and
I really gear towards more other black trans women who
I can't relate to. And then I also just gauge
(11:32):
things based on like, at what age did I transition
to like temper, what my medical transition could actually look
like before contemplating the possibly of any surgeries and what
genetically and medically could happen from hormones and so TikTok.
There's a few community spaces on x Twitter and things
(11:52):
like that. For me too, having a doctor who is
very well versed in trans and non binary identity that
is overseeing my gender affirming care has really helped as well.
But then also just having those older people who they
were starting when like HRT was not as accessible and
they have been able to be such good guidance on things.
(12:15):
It's just definitely following the gut and trusting the way
something makes you feel when you're looking at resources, something
makes you uneasy, or you feel like that doesn't seem
right and it makes you raise an eyebrow and you're
just like, no, I don't think this answered my question.
I would click out. I would go look for something else.
And then when you feel like something is sitting and
(12:36):
resonating with yourself.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
I would do that.
Speaker 3 (12:39):
And so that's helped me with the dating side of things,
in figuring out terminology, figuring out how to put words
to the ways that I was feeling, or just even
navigating and tempering my journey on HRT and not feeling
like I would wake up and like I would see
the end results.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
It takes time. It's a process.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
You're essentially going through a second puberty again, and so
it can take up to five years for everything. And
so I think being able to access that online information
where people are documenting their own transitions, sharing information that
they gleaned through their process, it's like really helpful and
important for a lot of young trans people, and it's
(13:17):
just always important just to know. Like early on, for me,
it was this thing of like, I didn't get to
transition when I was younger, and I transitioned after I
was twenty five and transitioned right when I turned twenty
seven medically and so tempering that certain things I would
not get from the hormones because I started a little later.
(13:40):
But that's always not the hard, stead fast rule of
realizing that hey, genetics might work, some things may not work,
and just being happy and graceful about the body that
I'm in, grateful for being able to finally live in
my truth and be happy that there are some resources
out there.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Kind of thank you so much for all of that.
So what would you say are the new normals you've
had to navigate and get used to dating as a
trans woman straight men?
Speaker 3 (14:12):
I you would think I've been dating a lot of
straight men in the past five to six years or so.
Somehow I end up always that's who I end up
in the long haul day, and it's very different. Luckily,
I'm the youngest of five, so I have two older
brothers and they're really good with like advice. And my
(14:36):
older brother that's two years older than me, is like
when I first announced to my family that I was
he was like right on board, and it's like my
little sister this and that, and I'm always really good
at gaging things because also my dating pool is typically
like black millennial men because I only date with inside
my race and typically it's like straight men, so I
can glean from them like, hey, you feel this way
(15:00):
or you've dealt with this before.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
How should I approach this to.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
Where it doesn't seem like I'm nagging them or like
I understand where they're coming from, and how can I
approach this topic? And my brothers have been like really
really helpful with that, But it definitely would be entering
that hetero dating space a little bit. There's someone that
I would seeing and they would not let me open
a door, and they are from the South. They were like,
(15:27):
would not let me open the door. They would get
mad when I would do anything like that. They're like
very chivalry because I'm like, it's modern world, modern woman,
modern dating. Chivalry's kind of little on his last breath,
so it's always shocking when you experience it. And so
it would just be those kind of hetero norms. But
it is something that's very different for me because it's
(15:49):
not what I've done dating wise, and so that has
been like the most interesting to navigate. And I find
myself having girl talk with like my friends and my
aunts and like my mom and stuff about these things,
and I'm like, oh, okay, that makes sense. But yeah,
definitely navigating dating straight man, And.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
Is there anything that's been more positive or more uplifting
than you expected it to be.
Speaker 3 (16:15):
I think now I came out in a time where
there have been work of like the idea of trans people,
specifically black trans women existing was not as out of
mind out of sight for people, and so I do
think when it comes to dating, there's an opportunity for
me to date people who are comfortable being with me
(16:36):
in public. There's still a lot of people that are not,
especially just the way that we talk about queerness and
transness in the black community in general, especially if you're
from the South and grew up in a very religious.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
Background like I did.
Speaker 3 (16:49):
And so it's been refreshing to meet some nice guys
that are totally secure in who they are in themselves.
They're like, I'm either by or pain or they're like,
I'm I'm straight. I only like women. I only date women,
and you're a woman for me, and you make me happy.
I'm very attracted to you, and I don't care what
nobody gonna say. They're like PDAs ago dating and public
(17:12):
as a go, and that's very one gender for me.
But two, it's also just romantically, just when you're dating someone,
you never want to feel like you're being the secret.
You never want to feel like they're embarrassed of you.
It's such a dehumanizing feeling. And so I think that's
(17:32):
a really big part because even before my transition, and
maybe I was dating some queer men, they were always
embarrassed about my femininity. They were always embarrassed about me
and aspects of who I was as myself, and it
just was not ever a good feeling. And so that's
definitely a part where it's like a lot more happier.
(17:55):
But then I also enjoy girl talk with my girls
and talk about this stuff.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
I have fun with that.
Speaker 3 (18:01):
The sisterhood from the black women in my life, it's
been amazing. They're always giving so many tips and advice
on things, especially when it's like a date night.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
They're like, oh, you gotta do this, girl, have this,
be prepared with this, and I'm like, thank you.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
So it's definitely those aspects that have been like, hmmm,
this is kind of great. I like it.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Nice, nice more from our conversation after the break, so
we know that a lot of dating these days is
happening online, so people have mixed experiences. So I'd love
(18:43):
to hear about your experiences dating online. Any tips that
you would have to share are things that you're like,
please say away from this.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
I'm an online girl. I am.
Speaker 3 (18:52):
I'm an online girl. I've been online for most of
my life. I'm a what the kids call a zenillennial.
I'm a cusp between millennial and gen z. So technology
has been a huge part of my life and dating.
I was on all the apps. I no longer am
on the apps. I don't have them on my phone anymore,
but I was on all of them. The queer ones.
(19:14):
There's some trans specific ones that you got to be
a little careful about because they're marketed as for us,
but what there really are are very fetishization and people
that are like chasers, and you got to be really
weary about those ones. And then there are some very
black centric ones that while company policy may be they're
(19:35):
pro everybody, the experience in who is allowed to be
on there and who doesn't get bans and reporting is
very different from the actual reality.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
And then there's.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
Okaycuep it, hear me out, hear me out. It took
me hearing from some of my older friends who met
their partners on okaycuep It to give okaycup it a try.
And I'm single, but I've been actively dating and out
of who is working, that person came from okaycupit, and
(20:10):
so that is very shocking just for me being so
young and like always being long on tender rayah mumble
and like all the other newer ones. But yeah, they
came from okay Cupid, and so I'm pro dating apps.
I say that I'm trans straight up. It kind of
is a little easier for me to not even really
(20:31):
contemplate stealth or being public, only because I chose not
to change my name. And part of that reason was
that half my career was already under my name. And
I'm a journalist, I'm working media, I'm front facing, and
I go viral quite a bit online on different topics
and stuff, and so I was just like, there's no
way I can just disappear and just pop back out
(20:52):
and nobody knows who I am. And so because of
those things, I am very upfront about it. I'm also
living with HIV, which I've discussed and made that public
as well. And that I contracted that from like assault,
and so I'm very honest that I'm positive I'm an
undetectable and I am a trans woman that's in my
(21:12):
bio all the time. On dating apps, other ways you
can do it. A lot of girls kind of just
put the little flag as a sticker on one of
their photos so it's clear. Other people may start the
conversation with someone like the highs and the hellos and
then early on their life just so you know I
am also trans. There are so many different ways that
people disclose these things and dating apps, it can be hard.
(21:34):
You're sifting through a lot of people that are fetishizing you,
a lot of people that may be attracted to you,
but they have their own internal stuff that they're figuring out.
There was one guy, it was a guy who matches
me on a dating app, and it was like two
years ago. This guy mashed me on the dating app.
We were hitting it off on the app. We exchanged
(21:54):
numbers and like I said, my status as far as
my HIV is in my bio and that I'm a
trans woman is in my bio, and so we're hitting
it off. We get each other's number. I guess they
finally go back and read my bio. We're still talking
over text, having good time. They're setting up a date
all of this, and they're like, whoa, you got me,
(22:16):
you tricked me, you got me real good. And I'm
just like, what are you talking about. They're like, you
played me real good. I didn't know you were trans
and this and that da da dah. And I was like,
it's like the first thing in my bio, Like did
you not read the bio? And they were like, no,
you played me well. And I was like, who tricked you?
Who played you? When it's right there, first thing on
(22:39):
the profile. And it was such an interesting kind of dynamic.
Situations like that always early on too, because at the
time I wasn't had to start my medical transition, and
at the time of that time, I wasn't working full time.
I was freelancing full time, and so I just didn't
have health insurance, and so I was always really hard
on myself about not being able to quote unquote past
(23:04):
or feeling like I hadn't started my actual medical transition,
and so things like that did hurt and hit my
insecurities a lot about myself, and I'll trigger a lot
of my dysphoria. But it was just thing of like,
no one tricked you, but you feel that I intentionally
went out of my way to do something dubious to you,
and it was right there. I'm gonna say this is
(23:25):
the clean way because I gotta be a lady in
situations like that. There were so many different situations that
happened that were like that.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
And I joke with my.
Speaker 3 (23:35):
Girls now and I'm just like, men don't be reading
none of these bios on dating sites at all. They
see a pretty face or a booty and they swipe
right and they just start the conversation, and then down
the line in the conversation they might go click back
and read your bio. And I'm like, that's exactly what happens.
And I know that happens just because of that situation
(23:56):
in so many other situations. And so that's it's been
like my online dating experience. There's been good experiences, there's
been bad. There's been some people where it started off
maybe let's go on a date, and then it turned
into friendships, it turned into just us networking because we
found out we both work in media, or they just
became good friends. But dating as a black trans woman
(24:19):
is very much like dating as a black woman in general.
That is sis added on top with a bunch of
sprinkling of transphobia possibly all.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
These other things.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
You're still dealing with a massage noor, You're still dealing
with people either fetishizing you, You're dealing with people that
are dehumanizing you. It's all these things you have to
sift through just to find Prince Charming or the person
who you're meant to be with or who you're a
person is And it's interesting. But I like meeting people
(24:49):
in person. I also like online dating. I think online
dating you do what works for you, and I've done
them all. Like I said, I even was like on Riyah,
I just don't believe in paying for so I was
on there for a bit, had a couple of matches,
but it was too industry and networking for me that
I didn't too much care for it. I've also dated
(25:12):
a few other people with public platforms who were very
iffy about dating me because it was this thing. They
would google me and I pop up with an actual
Google knowledge panel and so it's like, oh, this is
a very recognizable person. So if we're out in public.
If we're doing things in public, people are going to
(25:34):
know that she's trans. And if we're holding hands, if
we're looking romantic, they're going to know that I'm into
trans women. There was one actor who I was seeing
and not really that long, but we were just seeing
each other, and he did this thing of like, my
career it could be at risk, all this other stuff
and just being affiliated with you, which hurt me so
(25:56):
bad because I'm just like, while I can't understand this,
like insecurities, fears and stuff like that, it's the way
you go about articulating it to a person that just
doesn't make them feel like also crappy. They didn't articulate
in a really great way, and so I gave a
little snappy push back and I said, don't nobody even
(26:16):
know who you are? They googled your name? No, none
pop up. You google me, something does pop up. And
so it was a very interesting situation. It was this
thing of them telling me they don't care about who
sees us and this stuff like leading me on in
that way, and then it flipped to this and I
was just like, then leave me alone, Like you didn't
have to approach me. You approached me, you asked me
(26:39):
out we were going on dates. Leave me alone. If
you cannot get down with who I am, leave me
alone because there's no fantasy here, there's no fling, there's
no nothing, because I don't got time for it. I'm
very guarded and protective of my heart because of the
relationships I've had, the things that I've learned from those relationships,
(27:00):
and so I'm just like, until you figure out yourself,
until you are comfortable with what you're attracted to, please
say away. I've had a lot of different situations of
dating online and some goods and bads in between, and
you know, it's just the experiences.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Yes. So, Derek, you mentioned being careful of being fetishized
multiple times. Can you give us some indications of like
how we would vet for that, Like how would somebody
know whether it's like somebody who has genuine interests versus
somebody who's interested as a fetish.
Speaker 3 (27:34):
It's very similar to and I think a lot of
black women can understand this too. It's versus when a
guy is like actively trying to set up a date
versus just like trying to just kick it. And we
know what kick it means and a lot of them
just be trying to kick it. I can tell when
they're like not trying to like go and hang out
in public, but they're like, let me come over, or
(27:57):
you come over here, and I'm like, it's eleven o'clock
at night, it's one am. Why are you asking me
to come over? We had a whole day. You also
told me that you were off.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
I was off.
Speaker 3 (28:07):
We were cool, we could have coordinated something, and it's gauging,
like those things going with your gut. But then when
they're like so anti just even just doing platonic hangouts
with you, and if they're only contacting you to inquire
about the kicking it of it all, that also said
something for me too, like we can't hold a regular
(28:30):
conversation because for me, with dating, I need to know
that we have some interest, we have some things that
we can talk about before we even get into the
flirting or the sexual nature of us. When I date,
the typical times where things work out is when I'm
a nerd. I'm an anime nerd, I'm a sneaker nerd,
I'm a music nerd, and I love pop culture. When
I'm able to talk about these things with other people,
(28:51):
or I mesh well platonically and romantically with people who
are nerds about their own favorite thing, and I can
have that conversation with them. It's also this thing of
coming from like the queer space. There's this dl nature
of like some guys don't even let you know what
their name is, but they want to spend time with you,
they want to do all this other stuff. It's like,
(29:12):
I'm good, but it's very much this nature of how
did someone approach you make you feel? If they left
you feeling uneasy, if it made you feel like what
did you mean by that, If it doesn't make you
feel enthusiastic, like oh wow, I really would like to
hang out with them. It's a good way to kind
of really gauge in these things. There's just one app.
(29:33):
I don't know what to say, but it's really fetishizing.
Like I was using it as one of the apps
I was using for dating, and it was just a
lot of like chasers on there, and I had on
there that I don't do hookups, none of that, don't
not looking for none of that, and people were still
trying because I guess that's what it started being for
(29:56):
a lot of people. It was like very much a
chaser app for trans women, Like it was an app
for people to go in there and find trans women
and appease what they were into. And so those are
those types of things too. What worked for me also
was just getting off of the queer centric apps like that,
like the ones that were very catered towards us. I
(30:18):
kind of just you know, let people know that I'm
transit my bio check that I'm a woman or tender,
and a few other places you can now check that
you're trans women like they have a more expansive gender identification,
and I just kind of stick to the ones that
the this is hed people use and feel and kind
of just not sift.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Through any of that.
Speaker 3 (30:37):
But it's also this notion of like, if you're on
the queer ones and there are trans sub categories that
you can select, a lot of us feel like that's
a little easier because you don't have to do the
dance of letting someone know that you're trans. And so
that is the appeal of those spaces. But with those spaces,
the other side sometimes is that it's real fetishization is
very hookup culture. It's very like people are only interested
(31:01):
in you for your body, for what you do for
them on an arousal level versus as a person, and
before transitioning, before socially transitioning, just dating in general has
always been that for me, where people were more in
love with the idea of me. My past relationships were
very centered on those things, and so I learned a
(31:23):
lot from those things where I.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Was not happy.
Speaker 3 (31:26):
Some of those relationships were very abusive verbally and physically,
and just be able to catch the signs of like,
this person does not make me feel safe, They do
not make me feel secure, they do not make me
feel happy, And I have an anxious attachment style, and
so I'm like, if they're exasperbating that like twenty four
to seven one hundred percent of the time, I'm like,
maybe we don't need to do.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
Right right more from our conversation after the break, so
you've shared that you are very forthcoming with your identity
as a trans woman, with your medical status, all of
those things. But we know that people are in different
(32:11):
stages of where they want you and how they want
to share that. What kinds of things would you say
people need to consider about when to have a conversation
if they are not as public or sharing as forthcomingly
as you are.
Speaker 3 (32:23):
I think when you feel safe, a lot of it
is safety because you don't know how someone's going to react.
Like the story I told about the guy earlier, it
was in my bio. He did not read the bio,
got my number and everything. We're talking everything, but still
felt like I tricked him, quote unquote. It's a lose
lose A lot of these times with people. For you, though,
(32:45):
when you are trans, it's about what allows you to
go to sleep at night, what makes you feel safe,
what makes you feel comfortable. Because everyone thinks there's this
big body man type of gotscha thing that's happening, and
most of the time that's not the case. What's happening
is people are attracted to us. They just don't want
(33:05):
other people to know that they are, and they get
very embarrassed or insecure about it because of the way
society talks about trans people, or they talk about the
people that are in love and interested and attracted to
trans people. When I date someone, like seriously date them,
always recommend them to watch Cocomo City. It's a film
(33:25):
that was on film circuit last year at festivals and
I saw it at Sundance last year and I interviewed
the director, who is Grammy nominated producer d Smith, who
is also trans. And there's a lot of trans documentaries
and films. This one, though, it was very specific to
the experience of black trans women and the people that
(33:46):
love us, and it really got into the nitty gritty
from people who were doing survival work for people that
are engaged and married in relationships with straight men. And
we are in the black community because we know how
we can navigate and really talk about queer issues. It's
very different than like broader kind of conversations. And it
(34:07):
was these in depth interviews about these dynamics with the
people about the safety of it all.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
How but just the way that you.
Speaker 3 (34:13):
Even talk about people that are interested in us adds
to the harm for us because it changes and affects
the way they react to finding out the person that
they are attracted to is trans, even if they may
know or have a glean in their mind. Are like,
I'm pretty sure she's trans, but she ain't probably told
me yet, but I'm cool with it, but you don't
really know for sure. And so I always tell the
(34:36):
guys and like, watch that like I also gauge is
how they talk about, like people in general, how they
talk about black women, because you might mean me where
my hair is a totally different way. This is a
fresh twist out five days when now it's gonna be.
So I tell people like, don't be feeling like you
getting tricked by some type of image or you met
(34:57):
me when my hair was straight, or you met me
when I this other thing, and you feel like I
don't no longer look this way, And I feel like
a lot of black trans women we gauge that too,
Like it's this thing of we have to like constantly
put the face on. We gotta do the full performance
of femininity. We can't really always show up sweatpants, hair
tat chilling with no makeup on, Like we can't do
(35:20):
those types of things. Because even this interview, I was
like so weird because I talk with my hands, but
I took my nails off, and so I was like,
I need to pop on into presto ones and like
all these other things and then like my makeup. I
do that for myself, like it's something I just love
to do. But it's these things that I think a
lot of us consider and I always recommend that documentary.
(35:40):
And then d Smith, their partner is actually one of
the old members from B five, and he did a
video too that was like going around and it was
viral and it was just think about like, it's important
to talk about and normalize loving black trans women because
when we do these things, it.
Speaker 2 (35:57):
Makes it safer for us.
Speaker 3 (35:59):
It really does, like having that co sign of just
like this is normal, This is way more normal than
people think it is, This is more common than people
think it is. Is really really important. It overall adds
to the safety for us. It adds to how community
engages with us. It takes away this table nature of
(36:21):
our existence. Because I always tell people, like, just me existing,
it is political. It was already political as a black person,
it's more political now as a woman, as a trans woman,
it's just political because my existence is always discussed on
the political spectrum, my rights, all these types of things.
And I just tell people, do what makes you feel
(36:46):
safe and comfortable. What's gonna be the thing that makes
you feel like you can go to bed at night
and not keep you up at night, make you not
feel like someone's going to attack you because of who
you are. I think you asked me earlier about out,
like how do you gauge like who's fetishizing and who isn't?
Typically the reason another reason why I stay away from
(37:06):
the people that are fetishizing is because they're usually the
people who will react in a very harmful way regarding
your status or of who you are, your transness, and
if other people find out, it can get really really
harmful and dangerous, And so I need people who also
got something to lose. They people who are not of
(37:28):
that vein who I can go out in public with
it can be documented. I'm texting of my friends like
hey girl, I'm out with this person, just so you
know they got my I'm in an improved child with
my girlfriends and we they have like.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
My location and stuff like that.
Speaker 3 (37:41):
I think about like abusive relationships and we're partners, trying
to isolate a person and when it comes to dating
for me, but like also being aware because it used
to be me and a lot of other trans women
deal with this, there is that isolation where you can't
really talk about the person that you're dating. You can't
really disclose what's going on, even to your friend groups
(38:02):
or your loved ones, and that type of isolation builds
this perfect environment for them to be able to be
abusive and feel like you don't have anyone to turn
to about it, because there's also this guilt, I would say,
of feeling like, why are you telling the tea of
who you were seeing? And it's like it's also your tea.
(38:24):
This was a us, Like you should be able to
talk about the romantic encounters that you have, and I
think a lot of the times we feel like, oh,
we got to keep that private and this than that,
because if someone finds out, then they're like, oh, the
person was gay. But it's just like this person not
even attracted to men, They're only attracted to women, and
you're probably their first trans woman. Most of the time
when I'm dating, I'm usually people's first time dating a
(38:46):
trans woman. Now that is a whole other pressure of itself,
because you're then making sure that everything goes well and
you're like super in your head about every aspect of
the dating because you're just like, they're gonna hold the
entire experience up to the experience they have with me.
(39:07):
But overall, I just tell people, you really got to
listen to your gut. You really gotta like, it's about
your safety at the end of the day, and I'm
just like, it's disclosure is very much a personal decision.
We discuss it like it's not, but it's a very
subjective and personal decision.
Speaker 1 (39:26):
So what advice would you give to non trans partners
who want to create safe, nurturing environments for their trans partner.
Speaker 3 (39:34):
When updated non trans people, what's really worked for me
that's made me feel safe and secure is one knowing
that they're usually in community with other queer people. They're
in community with other trans and non binary people. They
are cultured on some aspects of transnis. They may not
(39:55):
be like an academic scholar on the subject matter, but
they're not complete oblivious to things. They're always asking questions,
but in a way to grow and learn, or they'll
just take the initiative to kind of just research something themselves.
And then it's like they do this thing. You're like, wait,
how did you even.
Speaker 4 (40:15):
Know even know to do that? And it's like, okay,
so when did their homework? I see you, and so
I think it's important to do that. I mentioned the
Reddit earlier, there were communities for some people that are
interested in dating trans people.
Speaker 3 (40:30):
They are very specific ones. They're broad ones, just like
dating trans people in general, there are very specific ones
for male to female. There are very specific ones for
female to male, from how to have sex with this person,
what is pleasurable, what is not to how do I
make them feel their gender affirmed constantly? How do I
(40:50):
make sure I'm not offending them in this way or
let them know that I'm not fetishizing them, I'm not
a chaser, or people trying to figure out are they
a chaser or not because they're like, well.
Speaker 2 (41:00):
I feel this way, but does that make me a chaser?
Like I don't want to be a chaser.
Speaker 3 (41:04):
Like I've seen different communities like that on Reddit too,
and so there's a lot of discussion for people who
are interested in dating trans people, especially black trans women.
But it's still very much in the shadows. And I
always recommend that Cocomo City film because it's like one
of the first times I've seen it kind of just
like put in a platform that's like, we're not in
(41:26):
the shadows anymore.
Speaker 2 (41:27):
We exist.
Speaker 3 (41:28):
We're part of the black community because we are black,
and there are straight black men that love us too,
and pretending like it's this crush quiet type of thing
actually adds harm to us. But I always recommend those,
even just for trans education in general. I have a
(41:50):
one on one course. I get people that recommended mea
hey media academic journalist that that's my little house. So
film wise, it's Cocomo City and it's Disclosure Doc that
is on Netflix, and then we see each other by
my good friend and mentor, Javelle Anderson, which is a
(42:10):
legacy of black and trans representation on TV and film
and pop culture.
Speaker 2 (42:15):
And a newer book from.
Speaker 3 (42:17):
Roquel willis the Risk it takes to bloom on liberation
in life, And that's like my one on one course
for people to really get a glimpse of what it's
like to be trans, but very specifically black in trans
and a very black trans womanhood centric peak into what
it is of the existence. And yeah, those are my
(42:40):
recommendations one on one course crash course of just like huh,
start there, like when everybody's like, you don't got to
constantly ask me as a living encyclopedia, you can google.
I'll give a few recks and those are my go
to recommendations for people.
Speaker 1 (42:54):
Beautiful. I love that, we love a good resource list
and things for people to check into for themselves. I
appreciate you so Derek. I feel like there's so much
more to share, but I do not want to keep
you all day, So tell us where we can stay
connected with you. What is your website as well as
any social media channels you'd like to share?
Speaker 3 (43:11):
Everything is Derek coott. Even my website is d A
r I C c Ott dot com. On my social
media is if I'm on a platform, it's Derekcott d
A r I c c O t T. That's the
act for everything, and that's how you can find me perfect.
Speaker 1 (43:27):
We'll be sure to include it in the show notes.
Thank you so much for spending some time with us today.
Speaker 2 (43:31):
Of course, thank you.
Speaker 1 (43:36):
I'm so glad Derek was able to join us for
this episode. To learn more about her and the work
she's doing, be sure to visit the show notes at
Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash Session three four six,
and don't forget to text two of your girls right
now and tell them to check out the episode. If
you're looking for a therapist in your area, be sure
to visit our therapist directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot
(43:57):
com slash directory. If you want to continue digging into
this topic or just be in community with other sisters,
come on over and join us in the Sister Circle.
It's our cozy corner of the Internet design just for
black women. You can join us at Community dot Therapy
for Blackgirls dot com. This episode was produced by Frida Lucas,
Alise Ellis, and Zaria Taylor. Editing was done by Dennison Bradford.
(44:22):
Thank y'all so much for joining me again this week.
I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all
real soon. Take good care.
Speaker 2 (44:34):
What's
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:57):
for joining me for session three forty six of the
Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our
conversation after a word from our sponsors. We all deserve
to find and have love, but this process can look
(01:18):
and feel a little different when you're navigating the dating
scene as a transgender woman. To explore all of the
nuances that come with dating as a transgender person, I'm
joined by award winning journalist Derek L. Cottingham. Derek is
a proud Southern Black trans woman based in Los Angeles
whose career portfolio includes The La Times, Harper's Bazaar, Essence,
(01:40):
and The Washington Post. She's also a general board member
of NABJLA, where she strives to make the industry more
inclusive for black journalists. During our conversation, Derek and I
discussed some of her experiences navigating dating as a trans woman,
including discerning between genuine interests and fetishization, deciding which dating
(02:01):
app is right for you, and choosing how to maintain
safety when disclosing your identity to a new partner. If
something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share
with us on social media using the hashtag TVG in Session,
or join us over in the sister circles to talk
more about the episode. You can join us at community
(02:21):
dot therapy for Blackgirls dot com. Here's our conversation. Well,
thank you so much for joining us today.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Derek, Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Yeah, I'm excited to chat with you. So I wonder
if you could take us back to the early stages
of your transition and talk with me about, like, what
did those early experiences, how did that shape what you
felt like dating was going to be.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
So transition is really hard. People sometimes know transition based
on when you start your medical journey when you start
social transitioning. So social transitioning is like when you're going
through the world and letting everyone know these are my pronouns,
this is how I'll be moving when you start wearing
the gender of firm and clothing and leaning more towards
showcasing what the gender that you identify as is social.
(03:10):
And then there's the medical journey to where you go
and start hormone replacement therapy or HRT, whether you're introducing
estrogen or more testa shown into your body or using
lockers for the dominant hormone that your body naturally produces.
And so for me, I started social transitioning a few
(03:31):
years ago, but very much in a very discreete and
secret way for all intentsive purposes. When I would date,
I was dating as a trans woman in my personal life. However,
I had not yet let people know that I was trans,
or really let anyone know until last year of March
is when I made it public and I let my
loved ones and my family and everyone know. And so
(03:54):
I've only been on the medical side of transitioning. It'll
be a year at the end of March.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
So when you started socially transitioning, What were your thoughts
around dating and what that might be like for you.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
For me, it was interesting because a lot of my
dating experiences I had came out as like by and
queer when I was seventeen, and a lot of my
dating experiences were within a queer space, and a lot
of the times femininity was not like the thing that
was sought after, and there was this notion of no facts,
(04:28):
no felms, no this type of thing like if it
was masked for masks, and this is all that people
were interested in.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
And so also growing up in the South and just.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
Being black and growing up in like the Baptist religion
and just real Southern upbringing, there was a lot of
internal interrogation of not feeling like I was disappointing others
by like being my true self, by embracing my womanhood,
embracing my femininity, and always wondering if by being myself
(04:58):
would that mean that I would be alone for the
rest of my life romantically. And so it took a
lot of mental and emotional internal talking with myself and
sitting with the feeling and noticing that when I was
presenting more felm outwardly to people that I was happier,
It would sleep easier at night, I felt better about myself.
(05:19):
And I would literally cringe at heating pronouns, like I
would feel like a sword was stuck into my chest.
And so that was a lot of the mental and
emotional things that I had to work through personally when
I was navigating the dating space too, because it was
this thing of like, what does it mean when femininity
(05:39):
is just not appreciated as much in the dating space
coming from like the queer space of where I was
coming from, and still at the time, I was so unsure.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Now I'm a little bit more clear on things and
know what I'm.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
Attracted to as far as a partner, what I need
from them, What does it mean for sexuality when I'm
dating someone, and things like that, because when I am dating,
I'm typically dating someone that is more mass presenting, whether
it's SIS or trans, and I tend to date people
that are straight by and pansexual, and so now there's
(06:15):
a bit more understanding. But in those early stages, I
was like, I don't know the terminology, I don't have
the knowledge, and coming from the South, and there were
very few like the queerness that you did know was
more you had someone that was either lesbian or that
was gay. But I really didn't know any non binary
or trans people coming from like Texas, Louisiana and just
(06:39):
growing up in that real religious background. And so it
was also not that many like possibility models on TV,
and like the few trans people you did see, they
were usually white women or something, and me being very
aware that my experience is not going to be the
exact same as theirs, and there's not going to be
that same type of mobility, and so it was some time.
(07:00):
I am really trying to be comfortable with that, even
in private while dating.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
I'm glad you brought the media piece into it, because
I'm very curious about that. Can you remember like your
earliest experience of seeing yourself reflected on the screen and
then how that helped to shape your identity?
Speaker 3 (07:17):
Wow, it really wouldn't be the most accurate depiction would
not be until more recently, and it would be with
Uncle Clifford from Pea Valley. It would be the character
that's played by this actress on the SHI who was
also a black trans woman and a journalist, and those
(07:38):
would be the most accurate depictions where I'm like, Okay,
that's me, that's through and through as a black queer Southerner,
as the one that is navigating media space. But also
my transidentity is a very public thing too, because I
transitioned while I was already in my career, and I
also opted not to change my name.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
So it's this thing of like it's.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
A little bit different, of I don't have the option
to live in a stealth way or not really let
it be known that I am trans. And so those
two depictions were more common for me. And then when
I was growing up, I kind of just related to
a lot of more sim and queer characters, Like I
loved all the animated characters that Chris Summer played. I
(08:20):
loved her character in a different world, I felt from her.
And also it would be like other queer characters on
De Grassy you have like Marco, and so I would
identify with aspects of these different people. But not until
more recently did I feel like, Okay, that's exactly carbon
copy like me. And then just as far as like womanhood,
(08:43):
it would be Queen Latifa, especially live in single days,
like when I think of what beauty and womanhood and
stuff looks like for me and the way I expressed it,
it's very Queen Latifa Teona Taylor centric and really look
to like Tracey Hallis Ross and her time on girlfriends
and things. And so it would just be bits and
pieces of like possibility models that I would see in
(09:04):
media and not more recently would it be something that
would be this character encapsulates me as a whole.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
So you mentioned, you know, especially being like a Southerner
and not feeling like there were lots of like mentors
and things to kind of look up to to kind
of help you navigate this dating space. Where did you
find resources like who kind of stepped in the gap
for that or how did you feel those gaps?
Speaker 3 (09:26):
Google a lot of Google, a lot a lot of Google,
And then there are now working in media to have
a few other like transistors that work in media who
understand I can lean on them and ask them a
few questions here and there.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
But before then it was.
Speaker 3 (09:42):
Like reddits and tumblers and these like online resources of
community and basically figuring out all these different types of things.
And so yeah, it was definitely like leaning towards online
spaces of community and find getting different guys and articles
and reading these aspects and helps me put terminology to
(10:03):
things too, and then just reading books as well about
black transidentity.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
So any suggestions for people about how to navigate some
of those spaces, because I think there's a lot of
good there, but maybe not so good also when you're
going into these foreign territories so to speak. So any
suggestions for people, especially younger people who maybe checking out
this episode about like how do you navigate and know
what to pay attention to in online communities.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
I lean on my media literacy training. I lean on
my gut feeling. If I read something from a community
and I'm like, oh, that made me cringe a little
bit or feel uneasy, like maybe this is not the
community where I need to be looking for resources at.
And then if I don't have that feeling and I
feel like, oh this resource was helpful, I'm like, Okay,
let me continue to look. I've never really been a
(10:50):
Reddit type of person until I medically transitioned, and so
I'm on Reddit quite a bit. There's a lot of
different very transcentric spaces on Reddit that are moderated by
trans people, and there are even spaces for people that
are interested in dating trans people of like how to
(11:11):
help them navigate dating someone and using the right terminology,
not slipping up on things, also making sure they're not
fetishizing people, and so redd it's been a resource. TikTok.
There's a few transcreators that I follow on there, and
I really gear towards more other black trans women who
I can't relate to. And then I also just gauge
(11:32):
things based on like, at what age did I transition
to like temper, what my medical transition could actually look
like before contemplating the possibly of any surgeries and what
genetically and medically could happen from hormones and so TikTok.
There's a few community spaces on x Twitter and things
(11:52):
like that. For me too, having a doctor who is
very well versed in trans and non binary identity that
is overseeing my gender affirming care has really helped as well.
But then also just having those older people who they
were starting when like HRT was not as accessible and
they have been able to be such good guidance on things.
(12:15):
It's just definitely following the gut and trusting the way
something makes you feel when you're looking at resources, something
makes you uneasy, or you feel like that doesn't seem
right and it makes you raise an eyebrow and you're
just like, no, I don't think this answered my question.
I would click out. I would go look for something else.
And then when you feel like something is sitting and
(12:36):
resonating with yourself.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
I would do that.
Speaker 3 (12:39):
And so that's helped me with the dating side of things,
in figuring out terminology, figuring out how to put words
to the ways that I was feeling, or just even
navigating and tempering my journey on HRT and not feeling
like I would wake up and like I would see
the end results.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
It takes time. It's a process.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
You're essentially going through a second puberty again, and so
it can take up to five years for everything. And
so I think being able to access that online information
where people are documenting their own transitions, sharing information that
they gleaned through their process, it's like really helpful and
important for a lot of young trans people, and it's
(13:17):
just always important just to know. Like early on, for me,
it was this thing of like, I didn't get to
transition when I was younger, and I transitioned after I
was twenty five and transitioned right when I turned twenty
seven medically and so tempering that certain things I would
not get from the hormones because I started a little later.
(13:40):
But that's always not the hard, stead fast rule of
realizing that hey, genetics might work, some things may not work,
and just being happy and graceful about the body that
I'm in, grateful for being able to finally live in
my truth and be happy that there are some resources
out there.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Kind of thank you so much for all of that.
So what would you say are the new normals you've
had to navigate and get used to dating as a
trans woman straight men?
Speaker 3 (14:12):
I you would think I've been dating a lot of
straight men in the past five to six years or so.
Somehow I end up always that's who I end up
in the long haul day, and it's very different. Luckily,
I'm the youngest of five, so I have two older
brothers and they're really good with like advice. And my
(14:36):
older brother that's two years older than me, is like
when I first announced to my family that I was
he was like right on board, and it's like my
little sister this and that, and I'm always really good
at gaging things because also my dating pool is typically
like black millennial men because I only date with inside
my race and typically it's like straight men, so I
can glean from them like, hey, you feel this way
(15:00):
or you've dealt with this before.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
How should I approach this to.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
Where it doesn't seem like I'm nagging them or like
I understand where they're coming from, and how can I
approach this topic? And my brothers have been like really
really helpful with that, But it definitely would be entering
that hetero dating space a little bit. There's someone that
I would seeing and they would not let me open
a door, and they are from the South. They were like,
(15:27):
would not let me open the door. They would get
mad when I would do anything like that. They're like
very chivalry because I'm like, it's modern world, modern woman,
modern dating. Chivalry's kind of little on his last breath,
so it's always shocking when you experience it. And so
it would just be those kind of hetero norms. But
it is something that's very different for me because it's
(15:49):
not what I've done dating wise, and so that has
been like the most interesting to navigate. And I find
myself having girl talk with like my friends and my
aunts and like my mom and stuff about these things,
and I'm like, oh, okay, that makes sense. But yeah,
definitely navigating dating straight man, And.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
Is there anything that's been more positive or more uplifting
than you expected it to be.
Speaker 3 (16:15):
I think now I came out in a time where
there have been work of like the idea of trans people,
specifically black trans women existing was not as out of
mind out of sight for people, and so I do
think when it comes to dating, there's an opportunity for
me to date people who are comfortable being with me
(16:36):
in public. There's still a lot of people that are not,
especially just the way that we talk about queerness and
transness in the black community in general, especially if you're
from the South and grew up in a very religious.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
Background like I did.
Speaker 3 (16:49):
And so it's been refreshing to meet some nice guys
that are totally secure in who they are in themselves.
They're like, I'm either by or pain or they're like,
I'm I'm straight. I only like women. I only date women,
and you're a woman for me, and you make me happy.
I'm very attracted to you, and I don't care what
nobody gonna say. They're like PDAs ago dating and public
(17:12):
as a go, and that's very one gender for me.
But two, it's also just romantically, just when you're dating someone,
you never want to feel like you're being the secret.
You never want to feel like they're embarrassed of you.
It's such a dehumanizing feeling. And so I think that's
(17:32):
a really big part because even before my transition, and
maybe I was dating some queer men, they were always
embarrassed about my femininity. They were always embarrassed about me
and aspects of who I was as myself, and it
just was not ever a good feeling. And so that's
definitely a part where it's like a lot more happier.
(17:55):
But then I also enjoy girl talk with my girls
and talk about this stuff.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
I have fun with that.
Speaker 3 (18:01):
The sisterhood from the black women in my life, it's
been amazing. They're always giving so many tips and advice
on things, especially when it's like a date night.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
They're like, oh, you gotta do this, girl, have this,
be prepared with this, and I'm like, thank you.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
So it's definitely those aspects that have been like, hmmm,
this is kind of great. I like it.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Nice, nice more from our conversation after the break, so
we know that a lot of dating these days is
happening online, so people have mixed experiences. So I'd love
(18:43):
to hear about your experiences dating online. Any tips that
you would have to share are things that you're like,
please say away from this.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
I'm an online girl. I am.
Speaker 3 (18:52):
I'm an online girl. I've been online for most of
my life. I'm a what the kids call a zenillennial.
I'm a cusp between millennial and gen z. So technology
has been a huge part of my life and dating.
I was on all the apps. I no longer am
on the apps. I don't have them on my phone anymore,
but I was on all of them. The queer ones.
(19:14):
There's some trans specific ones that you got to be
a little careful about because they're marketed as for us,
but what there really are are very fetishization and people
that are like chasers, and you got to be really
weary about those ones. And then there are some very
black centric ones that while company policy may be they're
(19:35):
pro everybody, the experience in who is allowed to be
on there and who doesn't get bans and reporting is
very different from the actual reality.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
And then there's.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
Okaycuep it, hear me out, hear me out. It took
me hearing from some of my older friends who met
their partners on okaycuep It to give okaycup it a try.
And I'm single, but I've been actively dating and out
of who is working, that person came from okaycupit, and
(20:10):
so that is very shocking just for me being so
young and like always being long on tender rayah mumble
and like all the other newer ones. But yeah, they
came from okay Cupid, and so I'm pro dating apps.
I say that I'm trans straight up. It kind of
is a little easier for me to not even really
(20:31):
contemplate stealth or being public, only because I chose not
to change my name. And part of that reason was
that half my career was already under my name. And
I'm a journalist, I'm working media, I'm front facing, and
I go viral quite a bit online on different topics
and stuff, and so I was just like, there's no
way I can just disappear and just pop back out
(20:52):
and nobody knows who I am. And so because of
those things, I am very upfront about it. I'm also
living with HIV, which I've discussed and made that public
as well. And that I contracted that from like assault,
and so I'm very honest that I'm positive I'm an
undetectable and I am a trans woman that's in my
(21:12):
bio all the time. On dating apps, other ways you
can do it. A lot of girls kind of just
put the little flag as a sticker on one of
their photos so it's clear. Other people may start the
conversation with someone like the highs and the hellos and
then early on their life just so you know I
am also trans. There are so many different ways that
people disclose these things and dating apps, it can be hard.
(21:34):
You're sifting through a lot of people that are fetishizing you,
a lot of people that may be attracted to you,
but they have their own internal stuff that they're figuring out.
There was one guy, it was a guy who matches
me on a dating app, and it was like two
years ago. This guy mashed me on the dating app.
We were hitting it off on the app. We exchanged
(21:54):
numbers and like I said, my status as far as
my HIV is in my bio and that I'm a
trans woman is in my bio, and so we're hitting
it off. We get each other's number. I guess they
finally go back and read my bio. We're still talking
over text, having good time. They're setting up a date
all of this, and they're like, whoa, you got me,
(22:16):
you tricked me, you got me real good. And I'm
just like, what are you talking about. They're like, you
played me real good. I didn't know you were trans
and this and that da da dah. And I was like,
it's like the first thing in my bio, Like did
you not read the bio? And they were like, no,
you played me well. And I was like, who tricked you?
Who played you? When it's right there, first thing on
(22:39):
the profile. And it was such an interesting kind of dynamic.
Situations like that always early on too, because at the
time I wasn't had to start my medical transition, and
at the time of that time, I wasn't working full time.
I was freelancing full time, and so I just didn't
have health insurance, and so I was always really hard
on myself about not being able to quote unquote past
(23:04):
or feeling like I hadn't started my actual medical transition,
and so things like that did hurt and hit my
insecurities a lot about myself, and I'll trigger a lot
of my dysphoria. But it was just thing of like,
no one tricked you, but you feel that I intentionally
went out of my way to do something dubious to you,
and it was right there. I'm gonna say this is
(23:25):
the clean way because I gotta be a lady in
situations like that. There were so many different situations that
happened that were like that.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
And I joke with my.
Speaker 3 (23:35):
Girls now and I'm just like, men don't be reading
none of these bios on dating sites at all. They
see a pretty face or a booty and they swipe
right and they just start the conversation, and then down
the line in the conversation they might go click back
and read your bio. And I'm like, that's exactly what happens.
And I know that happens just because of that situation
(23:56):
in so many other situations. And so that's it's been
like my online dating experience. There's been good experiences, there's
been bad. There's been some people where it started off
maybe let's go on a date, and then it turned
into friendships, it turned into just us networking because we
found out we both work in media, or they just
became good friends. But dating as a black trans woman
(24:19):
is very much like dating as a black woman in general.
That is sis added on top with a bunch of
sprinkling of transphobia possibly all.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
These other things.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
You're still dealing with a massage noor, You're still dealing
with people either fetishizing you, You're dealing with people that
are dehumanizing you. It's all these things you have to
sift through just to find Prince Charming or the person
who you're meant to be with or who you're a
person is And it's interesting. But I like meeting people
(24:49):
in person. I also like online dating. I think online
dating you do what works for you, and I've done
them all. Like I said, I even was like on Riyah,
I just don't believe in paying for so I was
on there for a bit, had a couple of matches,
but it was too industry and networking for me that
I didn't too much care for it. I've also dated
(25:12):
a few other people with public platforms who were very
iffy about dating me because it was this thing. They
would google me and I pop up with an actual
Google knowledge panel and so it's like, oh, this is
a very recognizable person. So if we're out in public.
If we're doing things in public, people are going to
(25:34):
know that she's trans. And if we're holding hands, if
we're looking romantic, they're going to know that I'm into
trans women. There was one actor who I was seeing
and not really that long, but we were just seeing
each other, and he did this thing of like, my
career it could be at risk, all this other stuff
and just being affiliated with you, which hurt me so
(25:56):
bad because I'm just like, while I can't understand this,
like insecurities, fears and stuff like that, it's the way
you go about articulating it to a person that just
doesn't make them feel like also crappy. They didn't articulate
in a really great way, and so I gave a
little snappy push back and I said, don't nobody even
(26:16):
know who you are? They googled your name? No, none
pop up. You google me, something does pop up. And
so it was a very interesting situation. It was this
thing of them telling me they don't care about who
sees us and this stuff like leading me on in
that way, and then it flipped to this and I
was just like, then leave me alone, Like you didn't
have to approach me. You approached me, you asked me
(26:39):
out we were going on dates. Leave me alone. If
you cannot get down with who I am, leave me
alone because there's no fantasy here, there's no fling, there's
no nothing, because I don't got time for it. I'm
very guarded and protective of my heart because of the
relationships I've had, the things that I've learned from those relationships,
(27:00):
and so I'm just like, until you figure out yourself,
until you are comfortable with what you're attracted to, please
say away. I've had a lot of different situations of
dating online and some goods and bads in between, and
you know, it's just the experiences.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Yes. So, Derek, you mentioned being careful of being fetishized
multiple times. Can you give us some indications of like
how we would vet for that, Like how would somebody
know whether it's like somebody who has genuine interests versus
somebody who's interested as a fetish.
Speaker 3 (27:34):
It's very similar to and I think a lot of
black women can understand this too. It's versus when a
guy is like actively trying to set up a date
versus just like trying to just kick it. And we
know what kick it means and a lot of them
just be trying to kick it. I can tell when
they're like not trying to like go and hang out
in public, but they're like, let me come over, or
(27:57):
you come over here, and I'm like, it's eleven o'clock
at night, it's one am. Why are you asking me
to come over? We had a whole day. You also
told me that you were off.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
I was off.
Speaker 3 (28:07):
We were cool, we could have coordinated something, and it's gauging,
like those things going with your gut. But then when
they're like so anti just even just doing platonic hangouts
with you, and if they're only contacting you to inquire
about the kicking it of it all, that also said
something for me too, like we can't hold a regular
(28:30):
conversation because for me, with dating, I need to know
that we have some interest, we have some things that
we can talk about before we even get into the
flirting or the sexual nature of us. When I date,
the typical times where things work out is when I'm
a nerd. I'm an anime nerd, I'm a sneaker nerd,
I'm a music nerd, and I love pop culture. When
I'm able to talk about these things with other people,
(28:51):
or I mesh well platonically and romantically with people who
are nerds about their own favorite thing, and I can
have that conversation with them. It's also this thing of
coming from like the queer space. There's this dl nature
of like some guys don't even let you know what
their name is, but they want to spend time with you,
they want to do all this other stuff. It's like,
(29:12):
I'm good, but it's very much this nature of how
did someone approach you make you feel? If they left
you feeling uneasy, if it made you feel like what
did you mean by that, If it doesn't make you
feel enthusiastic, like oh wow, I really would like to
hang out with them. It's a good way to kind
of really gauge in these things. There's just one app.
(29:33):
I don't know what to say, but it's really fetishizing.
Like I was using it as one of the apps
I was using for dating, and it was just a
lot of like chasers on there, and I had on
there that I don't do hookups, none of that, don't
not looking for none of that, and people were still
trying because I guess that's what it started being for
(29:56):
a lot of people. It was like very much a
chaser app for trans women, Like it was an app
for people to go in there and find trans women
and appease what they were into. And so those are
those types of things too. What worked for me also
was just getting off of the queer centric apps like that,
like the ones that were very catered towards us. I
(30:18):
kind of just you know, let people know that I'm
transit my bio check that I'm a woman or tender,
and a few other places you can now check that
you're trans women like they have a more expansive gender identification,
and I just kind of stick to the ones that
the this is hed people use and feel and kind
of just not sift.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Through any of that.
Speaker 3 (30:37):
But it's also this notion of like, if you're on
the queer ones and there are trans sub categories that
you can select, a lot of us feel like that's
a little easier because you don't have to do the
dance of letting someone know that you're trans. And so
that is the appeal of those spaces. But with those spaces,
the other side sometimes is that it's real fetishization is
very hookup culture. It's very like people are only interested
(31:01):
in you for your body, for what you do for
them on an arousal level versus as a person, and
before transitioning, before socially transitioning, just dating in general has
always been that for me, where people were more in
love with the idea of me. My past relationships were
very centered on those things, and so I learned a
(31:23):
lot from those things where I.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Was not happy.
Speaker 3 (31:26):
Some of those relationships were very abusive verbally and physically,
and just be able to catch the signs of like,
this person does not make me feel safe, They do
not make me feel secure, they do not make me
feel happy, And I have an anxious attachment style, and
so I'm like, if they're exasperbating that like twenty four
to seven one hundred percent of the time, I'm like,
maybe we don't need to do.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
Right right more from our conversation after the break, so
you've shared that you are very forthcoming with your identity
as a trans woman, with your medical status, all of
those things. But we know that people are in different
(32:11):
stages of where they want you and how they want
to share that. What kinds of things would you say
people need to consider about when to have a conversation
if they are not as public or sharing as forthcomingly
as you are.
Speaker 3 (32:23):
I think when you feel safe, a lot of it
is safety because you don't know how someone's going to react.
Like the story I told about the guy earlier, it
was in my bio. He did not read the bio,
got my number and everything. We're talking everything, but still
felt like I tricked him, quote unquote. It's a lose
lose A lot of these times with people. For you, though,
(32:45):
when you are trans, it's about what allows you to
go to sleep at night, what makes you feel safe,
what makes you feel comfortable. Because everyone thinks there's this
big body man type of gotscha thing that's happening, and
most of the time that's not the case. What's happening
is people are attracted to us. They just don't want
(33:05):
other people to know that they are, and they get
very embarrassed or insecure about it because of the way
society talks about trans people, or they talk about the
people that are in love and interested and attracted to
trans people. When I date someone, like seriously date them,
always recommend them to watch Cocomo City. It's a film
(33:25):
that was on film circuit last year at festivals and
I saw it at Sundance last year and I interviewed
the director, who is Grammy nominated producer d Smith, who
is also trans. And there's a lot of trans documentaries
and films. This one, though, it was very specific to
the experience of black trans women and the people that
(33:46):
love us, and it really got into the nitty gritty
from people who were doing survival work for people that
are engaged and married in relationships with straight men. And
we are in the black community because we know how
we can navigate and really talk about queer issues. It's
very different than like broader kind of conversations. And it
(34:07):
was these in depth interviews about these dynamics with the
people about the safety of it all.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
How but just the way that you.
Speaker 3 (34:13):
Even talk about people that are interested in us adds
to the harm for us because it changes and affects
the way they react to finding out the person that
they are attracted to is trans, even if they may
know or have a glean in their mind. Are like,
I'm pretty sure she's trans, but she ain't probably told
me yet, but I'm cool with it, but you don't
really know for sure. And so I always tell the
(34:36):
guys and like, watch that like I also gauge is
how they talk about, like people in general, how they
talk about black women, because you might mean me where
my hair is a totally different way. This is a
fresh twist out five days when now it's gonna be.
So I tell people like, don't be feeling like you
getting tricked by some type of image or you met
(34:57):
me when my hair was straight, or you met me
when I this other thing, and you feel like I
don't no longer look this way, And I feel like
a lot of black trans women we gauge that too,
Like it's this thing of we have to like constantly
put the face on. We gotta do the full performance
of femininity. We can't really always show up sweatpants, hair
tat chilling with no makeup on, Like we can't do
(35:20):
those types of things. Because even this interview, I was
like so weird because I talk with my hands, but
I took my nails off, and so I was like,
I need to pop on into presto ones and like
all these other things and then like my makeup. I
do that for myself, like it's something I just love
to do. But it's these things that I think a
lot of us consider and I always recommend that documentary.
(35:40):
And then d Smith, their partner is actually one of
the old members from B five, and he did a
video too that was like going around and it was
viral and it was just think about like, it's important
to talk about and normalize loving black trans women because
when we do these things, it.
Speaker 2 (35:57):
Makes it safer for us.
Speaker 3 (35:59):
It really does, like having that co sign of just
like this is normal, This is way more normal than
people think it is, This is more common than people
think it is. Is really really important. It overall adds
to the safety for us. It adds to how community
engages with us. It takes away this table nature of
(36:21):
our existence. Because I always tell people, like, just me existing,
it is political. It was already political as a black person,
it's more political now as a woman, as a trans woman,
it's just political because my existence is always discussed on
the political spectrum, my rights, all these types of things.
And I just tell people, do what makes you feel
(36:46):
safe and comfortable. What's gonna be the thing that makes
you feel like you can go to bed at night
and not keep you up at night, make you not
feel like someone's going to attack you because of who
you are. I think you asked me earlier about out,
like how do you gauge like who's fetishizing and who isn't?
Typically the reason another reason why I stay away from
(37:06):
the people that are fetishizing is because they're usually the
people who will react in a very harmful way regarding
your status or of who you are, your transness, and
if other people find out, it can get really really
harmful and dangerous, And so I need people who also
got something to lose. They people who are not of
(37:28):
that vein who I can go out in public with
it can be documented. I'm texting of my friends like
hey girl, I'm out with this person, just so you
know they got my I'm in an improved child with
my girlfriends and we they have like.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
My location and stuff like that.
Speaker 3 (37:41):
I think about like abusive relationships and we're partners, trying
to isolate a person and when it comes to dating
for me, but like also being aware because it used
to be me and a lot of other trans women
deal with this, there is that isolation where you can't
really talk about the person that you're dating. You can't
really disclose what's going on, even to your friend groups
(38:02):
or your loved ones, and that type of isolation builds
this perfect environment for them to be able to be
abusive and feel like you don't have anyone to turn
to about it, because there's also this guilt, I would say,
of feeling like, why are you telling the tea of
who you were seeing? And it's like it's also your tea.
(38:24):
This was a us, Like you should be able to
talk about the romantic encounters that you have, and I
think a lot of the times we feel like, oh,
we got to keep that private and this than that,
because if someone finds out, then they're like, oh, the
person was gay. But it's just like this person not
even attracted to men, They're only attracted to women, and
you're probably their first trans woman. Most of the time
when I'm dating, I'm usually people's first time dating a
(38:46):
trans woman. Now that is a whole other pressure of itself,
because you're then making sure that everything goes well and
you're like super in your head about every aspect of
the dating because you're just like, they're gonna hold the
entire experience up to the experience they have with me.
(39:07):
But overall, I just tell people, you really got to
listen to your gut. You really gotta like, it's about
your safety at the end of the day, and I'm
just like, it's disclosure is very much a personal decision.
We discuss it like it's not, but it's a very
subjective and personal decision.
Speaker 1 (39:26):
So what advice would you give to non trans partners
who want to create safe, nurturing environments for their trans partner.
Speaker 3 (39:34):
When updated non trans people, what's really worked for me
that's made me feel safe and secure is one knowing
that they're usually in community with other queer people. They're
in community with other trans and non binary people. They
are cultured on some aspects of transnis. They may not
(39:55):
be like an academic scholar on the subject matter, but
they're not complete oblivious to things. They're always asking questions,
but in a way to grow and learn, or they'll
just take the initiative to kind of just research something themselves.
And then it's like they do this thing. You're like, wait,
how did you even.
Speaker 4 (40:15):
Know even know to do that? And it's like, okay,
so when did their homework? I see you, and so
I think it's important to do that. I mentioned the
Reddit earlier, there were communities for some people that are
interested in dating trans people.
Speaker 3 (40:30):
They are very specific ones. They're broad ones, just like
dating trans people in general, there are very specific ones
for male to female. There are very specific ones for
female to male, from how to have sex with this person,
what is pleasurable, what is not to how do I
make them feel their gender affirmed constantly? How do I
(40:50):
make sure I'm not offending them in this way or
let them know that I'm not fetishizing them, I'm not
a chaser, or people trying to figure out are they
a chaser or not because they're like, well.
Speaker 2 (41:00):
I feel this way, but does that make me a chaser?
Like I don't want to be a chaser.
Speaker 3 (41:04):
Like I've seen different communities like that on Reddit too,
and so there's a lot of discussion for people who
are interested in dating trans people, especially black trans women.
But it's still very much in the shadows. And I
always recommend that Cocomo City film because it's like one
of the first times I've seen it kind of just
like put in a platform that's like, we're not in
(41:26):
the shadows anymore.
Speaker 2 (41:27):
We exist.
Speaker 3 (41:28):
We're part of the black community because we are black,
and there are straight black men that love us too,
and pretending like it's this crush quiet type of thing
actually adds harm to us. But I always recommend those,
even just for trans education in general. I have a
(41:50):
one on one course. I get people that recommended mea
hey media academic journalist that that's my little house. So
film wise, it's Cocomo City and it's Disclosure Doc that
is on Netflix, and then we see each other by
my good friend and mentor, Javelle Anderson, which is a
(42:10):
legacy of black and trans representation on TV and film
and pop culture.
Speaker 2 (42:15):
And a newer book from.
Speaker 3 (42:17):
Roquel willis the Risk it takes to bloom on liberation
in life, And that's like my one on one course
for people to really get a glimpse of what it's
like to be trans, but very specifically black in trans
and a very black trans womanhood centric peak into what
it is of the existence. And yeah, those are my
(42:40):
recommendations one on one course crash course of just like huh,
start there, like when everybody's like, you don't got to
constantly ask me as a living encyclopedia, you can google.
I'll give a few recks and those are my go
to recommendations for people.
Speaker 1 (42:54):
Beautiful. I love that, we love a good resource list
and things for people to check into for themselves. I
appreciate you so Derek. I feel like there's so much
more to share, but I do not want to keep
you all day, So tell us where we can stay
connected with you. What is your website as well as
any social media channels you'd like to share?
Speaker 3 (43:11):
Everything is Derek coott. Even my website is d A
r I C c Ott dot com. On my social
media is if I'm on a platform, it's Derekcott d
A r I c c O t T. That's the
act for everything, and that's how you can find me perfect.
Speaker 1 (43:27):
We'll be sure to include it in the show notes.
Thank you so much for spending some time with us today.
Speaker 2 (43:31):
Of course, thank you.
Speaker 1 (43:36):
I'm so glad Derek was able to join us for
this episode. To learn more about her and the work
she's doing, be sure to visit the show notes at
Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash Session three four six,
and don't forget to text two of your girls right
now and tell them to check out the episode. If
you're looking for a therapist in your area, be sure
to visit our therapist directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot
(43:57):
com slash directory. If you want to continue digging into
this topic or just be in community with other sisters,
come on over and join us in the Sister Circle.
It's our cozy corner of the Internet design just for
black women. You can join us at Community dot Therapy
for Blackgirls dot com. This episode was produced by Frida Lucas,
Alise Ellis, and Zaria Taylor. Editing was done by Dennison Bradford.
(44:22):
Thank y'all so much for joining me again this week.
I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all
real soon. Take good care.
Speaker 2 (44:34):
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