April 17, 2024 • 41 mins
It is guaranteed that everyone on this Earth will eventually die, and yet, the process is made difficult with considerations such as appointing an authorized representative, leaving dependents behind, and other bureaucratic formalities that can be outright cruel to deal with when you’re already experiencing grief. Stepping in to help with these considerations are death doulas, who work to make this monumental transition as smooth as possible for both the dying and their families.
To talk with us today about what it means to be a death doula, this week we're joined by death doula and newly-published author of the memoir ‘Briefly Perfect Human,’ Alua Arthur. Alua is the founder of Going with Grace, a death doula training and end-of-life planning organization that exists to support people as they answer the question, “What must I do to be at peace with myself so that I may live presently and die gracefully?” During our conversation we discussed the training and certifications required to become a death doula, how death doulas assist both the dying and their families in making end-of-life decisions, and how dying means becoming comfortable with the idea of leaning on our community for support.
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The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:57):
for joining me for session three fifty five of the
Therapy for Black Girl's podcast. We'll get right into our
conversation after a word from our sponsors.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Hi. My name is Alua Arthur and I'm on the
Therapy for Black Girls podcast. I'm in session today unpacking
my work as a death doula.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
It is guaranteed that everyone on this earth will eventually die,
and yet the process is made difficult with considerations such
as appointing and authorized representative, leaving dependents behind, and other
bureaucratic formalities that can be outright cruel to deal with.
When you're already experiencing grief. Stepping in to help with
these considerations are death doulas, who work to make this
(01:46):
monumental transition as smooth as possible for both the dying
and their families. To talk with us today about what
it means to be a death doulah, I'm joined by
death doulah and newly published author of the memoir Briefly
Perfect Human Ailua. Author Alua is the founder of Going
with Grace, a death doulah training and end of life
planning organization that exists to support people as they answer
(02:09):
the question what must I do to be at peace
with myself so that I may live presently and die gracefully.
In our conversation today, we discuss the training and certifications
required to become a death doulah, how deathdulas assist both
the dying and their families in making end of life decisions,
and how dying means becoming comfortable with the idea of
(02:32):
leaning on our community for support. If something resonates with
you while enjoying our conversation, please share with us on
social media using the hashtag TBG in session, or join
us in the Sister Circle to talk more about the episode.
You can join us at community dot therapy for Blackgirls
dot com. Here's our conversation. Heylua, thank you so much
(02:57):
for joining us today.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Yeah, it's an honor to chat with you. So I
wonder if you could get started by telling us a
little bit about what inspired you to go into doing
the work of being a death doula.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Sure. About ten years ago, I was practicing law at
the Legal Aid Foundation of Los Angeles, and I grew
really really depressed, clinical depression, and I took a medical
leave of absence from work, and during that leave of absence,
I went to Cuba, where I met a fellow traveler
on a bus who had uterine cancer. We spent a
lot of time talking about her life. Then I started
(03:31):
asking her about her death and she answered, and it
was one of the first times that she felt safe enough,
comfortable enough to discuss the potential for her dying from
her disease. And it made me really sad that this
stranger had nobody that she could talk to death about.
But also for the first time I started looking at
my own life through the lens of my death. We
(03:53):
both had terminal illnesses. If left untreated depression certainly being
one of them in my estimation anyway, And so I
considered if my disease had killed me, what would I
have made of my life? And I wasn't happy with
what I saw, and so I decided to make some
changes in my life, which included studying death. But about
six months after I came back from Cuba, my brother
(04:13):
in law, Peter Saint John, became ill and I got
to support him through the end of his life. And
that's when I saw firsthand the grim reality of people
walking through the medical care system engaging with death and dying.
And I didn't like what I saw there either, So
I decided to do something about that too, and built
a death doula practice.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Wow, So tell me more about when you said you
started learning more about death. Were you enrolled in formal courses,
were you reading books? What was that practice?
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Like? I read everything I could get my hands on.
I talked to everybody about death. I mean, I'm talking
about the cashier at CVS and write aid, Okay, I'd
be like, have you ever thought about dying? Kind of
like the Barbie movie. I just was so full of
the conversation. I also found a death Midwiffrey program here
in Los Angeles through an organization called Crossings, where I
(05:01):
learned how to care for bodies after death and natural
death care principles and practices like green burials, et cetera.
But the practice that I have right now, the one
that I built, is one that I learned from studying
a bunch of different practice areas. Like I went to
my estate planning friends and asked them to sit with
them as they walk people through wills and trusts and
(05:23):
the states. I got a job at an I'll turnative
funeral home. I volunteered at hospices, got a job at
a hospice. I did as much as I could to
learn what it looked like to properly support people through
dying to build the practice that I have right now.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Wow, thank you for sharing it. And I'm curious to
know how you have been able to take care of
your own mental health doing this kind of work and
if you saw any change in your depressive symptoms after
switching to doing this kind of work.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
I felt a massive change in my depressive symptoms. Don't
get me wrong, I think depression is something that I'll
probably dance with my entire life. Maybe it's in my
chemistry and my DNA, it's just in the way that
I experienced the world. But I did feel a shift,
majorly because at the time I wasn't capable of much
of anything. I couldn't make meals, showering I only did
because I didn't want to stink, But other than that,
(06:13):
I wasn't really capable of doing much. And what I
found through my work was that well, mostly through being
with death and dying is first of all, the impermanence
in any emotional mental state that I'm experiencing, which allows
me to just be with it for what it is
and not think it's never going to end, which is
certainly something that I felt in the depths of my depression.
(06:33):
But next, also I have a little bit more clarity
of purpose of being. And I don't mean in my
work necessarily. While I thoroughly enjoy my work, I've gotten
a chance to sit with why I'm here and what
I enjoy about being here, which allows me to reframe
often when the symptoms come back, or when things start
(06:54):
getting to feel like I can't carry them anymore.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
So talk to me about your work. What does does
a day look like as a death.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Doulah sure for starters, let me just define so death
doulas do all of the non medical Karen support of
the dying person and the circle of support through the process.
And when I say dying person, I mean anybody who
has some awareness that one day death will come, which
means healthy people too that have started to live with
awareness of their mortality. We help healthy people complete comprehensive
(07:25):
end of life plans, and people that know what it
is that they're going to be dying of because they
have an illness, we help them create the most ideal
death for themselves under the circumstances. And after a death occurs,
we help family members wrap up affairs of their loved
one's life. A day in life typically looks like waking
up and checking to see who's still living. First of all,
(07:45):
a lot of gratitude that I woke up that morning,
and next also checking in to see what happened with
my clients overnight, probably go to a few end of
life planning consultations, do some home visits and check in
with the clients to see how folks are doing, and
then a lot of emails and paperwork. One thing that
I didn't really account for was that building a practice
meant that I was going to be an entrepreneur, which
(08:08):
meant that I had to build a business and run
a business. And that is not for the faint of heart. Okay,
So that was one of the most surprising difficulties in
getting this whole thing up and running.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Can you tell me more about like an end of
life consultation? What does that look like?
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Yeah, that looks like helping somebody fill out their end
of life plans and paperwork. Often I'm working with healthy
people when doing this, So we walk through an advanced
planning tool that covers about nine basic areas to make
sure that folks have a lot of their plans down.
I think most important is that people complete advance directives,
starting with your medical decision maker, who's going to make
(08:46):
your decisions for you in the event that you can
the event that you become incapacitated. That person is also
called a medical power attorney. Also important is life support
decision making. What do you want done in the event
that your life cannot be saved, but perhaps it can't
be prolonged for a bit longer, saving off natural death
from occurring. Also getting clear on your care and comfort,
(09:08):
how you want to be cared for near the end
of your life, what you want done with your body
after death, your services, considering your possessions, if you're going
to have a will or a trust or in a state,
what you want done, Also with your sentimental items, thinking
about your dependence and pet care, so dependence being children
(09:29):
or disabled adults that are under your care. Also considering
all your biographical information and details. And then also all
your accounts, your online accounts, like getting your passwords and
any accounts that hold financial information, making sure all those
are in there. But the last thing, which I find
most important is thinking through your values around living. Because
(09:50):
one beautiful thing that death does for us is put
a highlight on our lives. And so if we can
think about the values that we have in our living
and start getting clear on those right them down, that
can be a really really powerful tool and end of
life planning.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
And is this something that's typically done in conjunction with
other family members? Is there software involved in like housing
all the passwords and thinking through.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
The logistics of all of this great questions. I love
having families involved. Once about maybe three years or so ago,
I got to support three generations and end of life planning.
So they all came together around a dinner table and
the living room. There was probably about sixteen people there
and everybody filled out these documents. It's analog because I'm
(10:34):
a still very analog girl, but it's a document that
I created where we talked through all the items in there,
and then they get to keep it for the account cataloging.
Often I suggest that people write down the accounts that
hold financial information such as like Amazon and eBay, and
places where your credit card information might be saved, including
(10:55):
your banking information, etc. So that those can be easily accessed.
And I also encourage folks to sign up for some
password storage systems.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
And how are people typically like finding you to work
with you? What does your caseload I guess kind of
look like, Well, it looks like.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
A lot of different things. Lately, I'm not seeing clients
as much because I've gotten really really busy with my
book that's coming out and teaching death doulas. But people
find me a variety of ways. I think from all
of the word of mouth, because I've been able to
be with quite a few people in their considerations around dying,
and also through students, which is really great because folks
(11:34):
come to learn how to become a death dola and
then they start figuring the work out there. But I
think that as the work starts to penetrate more of
mainstream society, people get curious about it and start going
snooping trying to find one. And I'm really happy that
they do.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Yeah. I mean, and as you're talking, you know, a
lot of your work sounds like what we might think
happens in hospice. But I wonder could you tell me, like,
what is the difference between the world work that you
do in traditional hospice and how might those two fields collaborate.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
I'm so glad you asked. They're really collaborative. If you
ask me, we can just be an extra set of hands, eyes, ears,
human for the dying person in the family. Hospice often
has they hold all the medical stuff, so the doctor,
the nurses, the CNAs of the ends, certified nursing assistants,
licensed vocational nurse, et cetera. Folks that come in to
(12:27):
handle the physical needs of the dying person. Grant that
there also is a chaplain and a social worker that
might be part of the hospice team. But we get
to be a really holistic care, So I'm looking at
all of the client's needs in totality and making sure
that everything is covered. So there are things that the
hospice team won't do or can't do necessarily that the
(12:48):
doula can do. Also, I can be available when I
choose to be twenty four hours a day, whereas you
can't expect the doctor to pop in whenever you might want.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Got it? And I feel like sometimes hospice care is
paid for by insurance.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Correct, Yes, a lot of times it should be covered
okay care, Yeah, is.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
Your work covered by insurance at all?
Speaker 2 (13:07):
It's still private pay for now, largely because of licensing
requirements et cetera that we haven't totally found a way
through yet. Got it.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Got it?
Speaker 2 (13:16):
Okay?
Speaker 1 (13:17):
You say that sometimes like the family is involved with
the planning. How much of your work involves talking with
the family about the end of their loved ones life
a lot.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
My job is to support people who have some awareness
that death is coming, and that's not always a case
for somebody who's nearing the end of life. Some people
resist it all the way to the end, which means
that I can be hired by the family members to
support them as they support the person who's dying. There's
been many a time so when I've worked with a
caregiver who says, Hey, this looks like a mess and
(13:50):
it looks like death is coming, and what do I
need to do in order to prepare? What information do
I need? Et cetera. Also, the folks that are around
the dying person are also in a massive experience themselves
and also require some support. They are maybe dealing with
anticipatory grief or frustration or anger or whatever may be,
and they need support too. So we focus on the
(14:11):
dying person and the circle of support through that process.
So I'm curious.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
About all of the reading and the learning that you
were doing as you were preparing to start your organization
Going with Grace. What kinds of things did you learn
that you feel like have really become foundational to the
work you do with your organization.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
For starters, I really sunk into the impermanence of everything,
as I was just mentioning, is in order to be
with dying, we have to shift first, I think, into
the psychosocial, spiritual elements of it to allow us to
get into the practical things as well. Because the practical
(14:48):
don't make any sense unless we're also dealing with the
other stuff. And so when I started to like zoom
out and think about death and dying holistically is when
it allowed me to properly sit down and say, Okay,
what are the things that actually need to happen. Now
there are different entry points for the work, and some
clients aren't interested in talking about the emotional, relational, psychosocial,
(15:09):
spiritual elements of dying but really just want to get
their stuff done. But did two always come together one
way or another. So that was something that really supported
is thinking about dying theoretically and creating a framework for that.
And then from there, as I had to learn about
how deep bureaucracy is after death occurs, that really started
(15:30):
shifting the game for me. It's a whole beast after
somebody dies, trying to get all their fares wrapped up,
and I was not prepared for that at all.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Can you talk a little bit about some of the
things that surprised you with that process?
Speaker 2 (15:44):
My gosh, after my brother in law died, I was
trying to, briefly, I thought, brief help my sister before
I left to go take care of myself. Because I'd
been with them for a couple of months at that point,
and it was not quick. It wasn't brief at all.
I trying to transfer title of his car to his
nephew because we thought we'd just give the car away
(16:05):
after he dies. Turns out that's not the case at all.
It is a long drawn out process where the car
had to enter into the estate formerly and then through
the probate process. Then we had to determine who the
executor was going to be, and then the executor had
to go to the DMV and on and on and
on and on and on in order to do this.
That was just one thing, but also things like trying
to figure out what pension he'd held through his job,
(16:28):
or trying to get access to his cell phone because
we didn't have access to the passcode. I'd call or
try to reach out to some system and they want
to talk to him to get verification. I'd be like,
he's dead, Like it's part of the reason I called,
just because he died. It was like an unending wellspring
of bureaucracy and a lot of blocks and obstacles in
(16:52):
that bureaucracy as well. It was very foolish of me
to think that the bureaucratic rules would favor the grieving,
but they don't at all. In fact, you need to
have all your wits about you and be extra resource
in order to process something like that. But while doing
it in the midst of deep grief, it's cruel to me.
I can't understand for the life of me why the
(17:12):
systems are set up this way that make it that
much harder for people that are suffering to navigate.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
Right right, And ideally it sounds like somebody would work
with you before the end of their life so that
this stuff is kind of all taken care of.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
But does your work.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
Also sometimes start working with the family after a loved
one has passed to help with some of this. And
then how do you get permission, I guess, to kind
of speak on behalf of the family, Like, is there
some kind of paperwork that companies need to know that
you actually are authorized to speak on their famili's behalf.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
Yes, that is an authorized representative form. That's the form
that I use, and I'll have them fill out several
of them and just change the name of the company
that I'm trying to access. And sometimes it's really difficult
but yes, I often work with folks after the death
has occurred. In a few of them, there's been both
mom and dad have died at the same time, and
they've left adult children with multiple houses and lines of
(18:08):
credit and kids from one marriage kids from another marriage
trying to figure out who inherits who. In the couple
of cases that I've done, that one of them went
on for about a year and a half where we're
trying to piece together all the accounts that were open
and all the possessions that they had, et cetera. But
I went to law school, so my brain has been
(18:30):
highly trained to take in a big amount of information
and whittle it down to its finest, finest points. And
that cost me only one hundred and thirteen thousand dollars
and three years of my life. That aside that being
able to access information that way and use it that
way is really supportive in a situation like that, because
I can look big picture at all the things that
(18:50):
need to get done and all the things that we
need and shave it down and make it much easier
for the family members to digest afterward.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
Right right, more from our conversation after the break, But first,
a quick snip better what's coming next week on TVG.
Speaker 3 (19:05):
I believe a lot of the misconceptions that I dislike
that I wish we could just completely eliminate are the
ones that revolve around how people perceive you based off
which organization you're in. So if you say you're a
Sigma woman, a Delta woman, a Zeta woman, or an
Alpha woman, people instantly have this idea of how you think,
how you move, how you cook, even how you navigate
(19:27):
life in your relationships. But the reality of it is
you cannot generalize us based off our organizations. If anything,
that should inspire you to get to know us about
our values and our morals better.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
So you mentioned that a lot of your work now
is training other death doulas. Can you talk about what
that training process looks like, what is required.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
To become a death doulah? That's my favorite part. Well,
for starters, I think it's really important for folks to
have a bit of comfort and emotional depth to not
run from big emotions because there's a lot of them
when death and dying come around. That doesn't mean that
you can't have any In fact, I think my sensitivity
and my capacity to access my emotions is really a
(20:18):
strength for me in this work. But the training course
that we have at Going with Grace is a fourteen week,
fourteen module program either done online or in retreat in person.
And I think any death do the training program worth
its weight should have the individual look at the work
through the lens of self. It's wildly important that each
individual have a personal relationship with death so that we
(20:41):
can avoid collapsing the space between ourselves and the other.
If I'm clear about what my relationship with death looks like,
then I won't put all my fears on you, and
vice versa, I won't take yours on But we look
at our conscious dying. We bring our attention to our
own death. We consider the hospitals and the role of
medicine in our work, even though we do non medical care.
(21:04):
We also look at signs of dying, understand what's happening
with the body. We do some natural death care, learn
how to wash and prepare bodies after death. That we
support family members, and we support folks in home funerals
and learning about the funeral industry, legacy, ritual and meaning making,
so helping folks create rituals for themselves, advance planning and
(21:26):
advanced directives, wrapping up affairs after our loved one dies, grief, breavement, burnout,
and then lastly self care and business and practice building.
So the course is set up to move through all
the modalities and end of life care and hope that
the person who's shown up for the work can find
an area that feels really good to them to carry
out there.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
Got it. A lot of this sounds similar to what
the training to become a therapist is in some ways, right,
And I'm wondering, like, how do you teach and how
did you learn in your own training to kind of
manage your own emotions around either your death or the
sadness of working with somebody else who's dying, Like how
are you managing your emotions related to these kinds of
(22:08):
things happening?
Speaker 2 (22:10):
So many of us that come to the work of death,
and I can imagine saying for therapists are highly empathic people.
Most of us came because somebody died in a way
that broke our hearts or experienced something so beautiful and
ide like we want everybody to have it. And that
means that so many of us are willing to take
so much on for other people, and so I've had
(22:31):
to work really hard on shoring up my boundaries and
getting clear on what belongs to me, what is mine
to carry, and what is not, because otherwise I'd just
be walking around like with the weight of the world
to death and grief on my shoulders. So recognizing what
is mine as opposed to what belongs to somebody else
is really really helpful. Can I just tell you a
quick story about a client? Yeah, please, Okay. Years ago,
(22:54):
I went to go see a client and her sister.
I have three biological sisters. They were young black women,
and one sister was dying, and I was with them
through the time that they were there in the hospital.
When the doctor came in, I would listen, ask questions,
support them and making sure that they had the information
they needed. And when the doctors were gone, we just
(23:14):
we sat together for a while. At some point, the sister,
who wasn't yet dying, started crying and I was overcome
with emotion for her. Her sister, who was in the bed,
also started crying. I started weeping with them, and when
I tell you, just all my sister sadness, fears of
loss came up in that space. I was certainly in
(23:36):
my own emotional experience I was with them, but also
in my own experience, I was collapsing the space between
the tulus. I excused myself, got it together, and came
back into the space, and then eventually went home. And
I beat myself up for like a few hours, thinking, gosh,
they called me to come in there and hold the container,
and I collapsed directly into and I felt awful about that,
(23:59):
just terrible. A few days later, her sister calls and
she thanked me. She said, it was the first time
everybody else who was coming into the space had been
so professional, or they said things like sorry for your loss,
or they've spoken very technical terms, and it was the
first time that a professional and I'm using air quotes,
(24:19):
expressed some humanity. And she was very grateful for that.
And since then, I've given myself a lot of grace
for crying, because I cry everything. I cried joy, I
cry beauty, I cry frustration and anger and sadness and
all the rest too. So I think as long as
I can be aware of what belongs to me and
what belongs to somebody else and hold my boundaries tight,
(24:41):
then it works out.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
Okay, Yeah, thank you so much for sharing that. I mean,
you know, and again similar to our training, like we
understand that sometimes there are certain cases you can't take
on because you overidentify right with the client and so
then the idiot is harder to hold that boundary. I'm
wondering what it looks like for you as a trainer.
So maybe sometimes have to have difficult conversations with trainees
(25:04):
about maybe you need to take a step back from
the work, or like what kind of work they need
to personally do to be able to hold space for
a family or a person.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
For starters, we ask folks that have experienced to death
within the last six months to circle back later because
sometimes folks are coming as an expression of their own
grief and they want to know heal it through this
experience and maybe but also maybe just take a breath,
take a minute, take a nap, and then come back
and let's consider it. But next we do a lot
(25:33):
of work around the shadow self and the space from
which we are giving. Those are some tough conversations sometimes
because we have people that want to come in and
help everybody and fix everything, and there's no fixing death
and grief and loss. And also what part of you
feels like you are the one who can fix somebody
(25:55):
else's something. What is this like save you're or healer
thing that you're working with that says that it is
mine to do on behalf of somebody. So making sure
that folks are checking that as often as possible. And
there is a really dense conversation about privilege, I think,
and bias and so so much of our training also
focuses on looking at the privilege that we carry to
(26:16):
be in this position to be able to support other people,
and also the privilege that we carry just by virtue
of our background in our past and our history and
our intersections of identity, because those often impact I think,
how we want to show up to support the other person.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
Mm hmm, yeah, thank you, thank you for that. So
you mentioned that a part of why insurance does not
cover this at least as yet is that they're concerns
around like licensing and like figuring all of that out.
Are there particular certifications that a death doulah has or
like how would we vet if we are looking for
somebody to provide this kind of care, how would we
find like trustworthy individuals?
Speaker 2 (26:52):
Well, there's no official certification body, no certifying body for
death dulas. However, we're organized by the National End of
Life Doulah Alliance and they have a proficiency assessment that
any depth do loa can take and when you pass
that test, you get a little badge that you can
put on your website or to whoever asks, to show
that you have the basic core competencies of the work.
(27:12):
But I suggest that when folks are looking for someplace
to seek training, that you find somebody that you resonate with,
like somebody that feels good in your spirit, and somebody
who's doing the work the way that you would like
to do it, because that's likely what you're going to
learn and then up to you to decide how you
carry it on out there. But for folks that are
looking for a doula, I suggest first of all that
(27:33):
you check out the National and of Life Doula Alliance
to see if that person has a proficiency badge. You
also look at the organization where they got their training
and who are behind that organization, because since we're not
licensed or credentialed in any way, there are a lot
of different training programs popping up and you can get
a doulah certification in two hours, or you can spend
(27:56):
three months deep in the consideration. And so consider the organization,
the person's coming from, or their background in history, because
they may not have gone to get any formal training,
but may have been the one that went with their
grandma for years when they were growing up into the
community to support the people that were dying. So there's
a number of different ways to access training. Got it.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
So you've already offered a little bit of this, But
what other suggestions would you have for somebody who's interested
in completing a training to become a death DOULA.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
Volunteer for hospice is a great place to start also because,
like I was saying, so many people are coming to
this because somebody in their life died, and it's a
very different ballgame to be with people that you're not
emotionally connected to and they're dying. And granted, I grow
close with every client that I get to be with,
but being able to volunteer for hospice allowed me to
(28:47):
see what it's like when I know these folks, and
it was eye opening to see if I really wanted
to do this work. It also gives you an insight
into how the systems work, so that if you do
choose to do the work, you can understand how to
navigate it a little bit better. Read books, pick up books,
talk to people about death and dying, Attend some death cafes,
(29:09):
host a few death cafes. That's an opportunity for folks
to get together just to talk about the things that
are on their hearts around death and dying with no agenda.
Necessarily start to be in the work, talk about it
and see how it's landing for folks, and see how
it's landing for you, because you might find that being
the weirdo in the corner talking about death is not
your jam. And if it is welcome, we'll be here
waiting for you.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
So I had not heard the term death cafe. So
is that kind of, like you said, just kind of
like an open forum for people to talk about like
death and dying.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
Yeah, so death cafe is actually a branded term. There's
an organization called death Cafe, and they have some rules
and guidelines for hosting a death cafe. But yeah, it's
an open forum. There is nothing to sell, nothing to get,
but rather an opportunity for people to talk through what
they're experiencing and what they're curious about.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
Got it more from our conversation after the break. I'm
wondering if there have been some patterns that you have
seen come up with clients when you are working with,
specifically with the person who is towards the end of
(30:18):
their life. Are their particular conversations or things that have
been really difficult for them to deal with that you
want to share with the audience.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
Gosh, so many of them. Every part of who we
are as humans shows up as we die, and so
often the things that we struggle with while we're living
are going to show up and are dying as well.
And perhaps this is because of who I am and
where I'm at in my life right now, but I'm
being called to share the conversations around surrender and vulnerability
that people really really struggle with at some point in
(30:49):
our lives. This is, if we live long enough to
die as a result of disease rather than an accident
or sudden death of some sort, we will become disabled.
We're going to need the support of another on some level.
We live in community, and we die in community as well.
People don't just run off into the corner and die
like some animals do, but rather it requires a whole
(31:10):
team of people in this industrialized age, which means that
folks need to learn how to surrender into receiving the
support of another person. It's a lot of work, it's
a big obstacle to overcome if you haven't been practicing
it while you're living. And so that's one thing that
comes up a lot, and I think something that Black
(31:31):
women really also need to pay attention to, because I
think for so long we've just put the weight of
the world on our shoulders and on our backs and
have found ways to cope and adapt to carrying it
by ourselves. But we don't need to. And also, at
some point we're going to have to surrender and let
somebody else support us to So that's a big thing
that comes up often.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
It feels like that conversation is coming up in so
many spaces right like that in all of these conversations
around black women, Like this idea of surrender and vulnerability
and like being able to ask for help feels like
a theme across so many different areas.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
It's time. It's time. I am tired of being strong.
Let me just keep it all the way real but
then also noticing how hard it is sometimes for me
to just accept when somebody is showing up to help. Well,
I want to feel like I have it all together,
but you know, surrendering into the help of another doesn't
mean I'm not strong. And also what values are and
strong I don't want to have to be. I'm okay
(32:29):
with being tender and a delicate flower, which I actually am.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
So for the clients that you work with who are
not necessarily aware that they are at the end of
their life, so they're doing more kind of preventive kinds
of things getting their affairs together, can you talk about
some of the things that you talk with them about
to kind of get them started on this path of
dealing with the end of their life, because I don't think,
you know, like most of us are not in the
(32:57):
grocery store talking about death like you're saying, so, how
do you even enter into that conversation.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
Well, most of these people called me and so they're
ready for it in some capacity, But a lot of
them are coming because of an event in their lives.
I can think of a client not that long ago
who had a pulmonary embolism that ended her in the
hospital for over three weeks, and once she came out
of the hospital, she was like, listen, I'm healthy again,
but let's get this together. I also have a lot
(33:25):
of clients that are raising children that have elderly parents
or watching their parents die and don't want that experience
for themselves. They don't want to recreate it for their kids,
and so they're like, let me get as much together
as I can right now. And so often people are
starting to think about it, and then they call and say, hey,
this is just an idea. What do you think? And
(33:46):
sometimes a conversation is, well, I don't think I'm dying
right now, so why should I plan? And so that
I always say, well, how soon it's too soon to
start preparing for something you know one day is going
to happen. I'm a last minute for sure. I know
I'm going on a trip about the flight, but I
wait until the last minute before I go. I'm not
(34:07):
going to be that way with my dying. I'm gonna
spend some time. I've been spending the rest of my
life thinking about it and preparing myself in some capacity.
And so let's like we can warm up to the
question and to the idea.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
Got it, got it, And I'm wondering, what is the transition?
Is the best word I can think of that maybe accurate.
Like you are somebody who's like kind of constantly working
with people who are their lives are ending, and so
you become very close with the family, it sounds like,
and so it's one of the only professions I can
think of where you're constantly having to kind of deal
(34:39):
with these relationships ending. What does the aftercare process look
like for yourself when continuing to support yourself and doing
this work.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
It's not so glamorous immediately afterward. It looks like potato chips.
Looks like kettle potato chips, mostly the salt and vinegar ones.
Something about the fat and the crunch and the salt,
and like the bite in my jaw reminds me. It
grounds me back in my body. I think it's an
embodiment practice that I'm not conscious of, but it brings
me right back into the body, that allows me to
(35:08):
show up those boundaries again and remember that this is
mine and all that is not all the rest I
don't have to carry anymore. I often take baths also
when I get back from seeing clients sitting in the
water and sitting there and watching as it all goes
back down the drain for it to wash away what
I'm carrying that isn't mine. As we're talking before about
(35:30):
shadow work and being clear about what place I'm giving from,
how I showed up in that space giving myself and
my clients a lot of grace. But longer term, I
stay in touch with some of my clients, the family
members after their death and learning how to start shifting
the dynamic of the relationship from one where I was
available all the time and in a really deep emotional
(35:54):
experience for them to one that allows them to be
on their process with some support in the background. I
also cry a lot. I grieve a lot. I grieve
for my clients. I grieve with my clients. I grieve
for myself because as you were, I think alluding to
I've grown in relationship with these people and then they die,
(36:14):
and my heartbreaks every time I think I've just gotten
better attending to it through my tears and my crunch
of potato chips.
Speaker 1 (36:23):
Yeah, thank you for sharing it. So you already shared
that a lot of people kind of are brought to
this work because there is a death, experience of some
experience in their life, and then they think, Oh, I
want to do this for work. I'm curious to know
what has this work taught you about living and what
do you feel like clients have kind of shared about
life as they are nearing the end of their lives.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
It's the most basic thing. But this work has just
taught me again and again about the power of our
time and our existence and the miracle is to be living.
Being present in a room where life has just left
a body is profound. Not only does it humble me
(37:06):
to the incredible mystery of life, but it also reminds
me that I still have it for now. My body
is still animated by that intangible thing that allows me
to make eye contact and to eat cake, and to
dance in the rain, and to sit and stare at
a bird for a while, to speak my truth, to
(37:26):
do what I want when I want to the extent
that I can within the legal rules, and all that
is an invitation into life. So being around dying repeatedly
is an invitation into life. And I'm grateful, very grateful.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
So you've shared this a little bit, but I definitely
want to talk more. You're preparing to release your first book,
briefly Perfect Human. So can you tell us a little
bit about the book and how you want readers to
engage with it and what you want us to take
away from it?
Speaker 2 (37:57):
Oh? My yes, this book is was really an opportunity
for me to lay out my thoughts and ideas around
how we die. It's a memoir, so it tracks my
journey into death care from the practice of law and
my life thus far, looking back and seeing how death
had been interacting with my life all the way up
(38:19):
in and through arriving at death care. And it also
highlights a decent amount of my client stories. So readers,
I think, have an opportunity to look at their lives
through the perspective of their own death through mine as
an example, and also learn a little bit about the
practice and the work itself, and also hopefully chuckle a
little bit. I think I'm hilarious. I was making myself
(38:41):
laugh as I was writing the book, and I think
that some of that carried through. My hope is as
I was saying before, I hope that this book serves
as an invitation into the lives of the people that
are reading it, as a reminder that this life is
fleeting and precious, and that being here for all it
can be a tremendous gift, not to discount the absolute
(39:04):
privilege it is to be able to think about our
mortality consistently and just even to take a time to
read a book, but to be with the fact that
one day I'll die, and to use it in a
way that serves my life. Yeah, that's a gift.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
Beautiful, beautiful, Thank you so much. I think people will
enjoy this read. So tell us where we can stay
connected with you, Alula. What is your website and your
social media channels and where can we find a copy.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
Of the book? Sure, you can find us anywhere on
the internet at goingwigrace dot com or on Instagram also
going with Grace, but with some underscores. Otherwise you'll end
up at like a yellow labrador or dog someplace in
Kentucky and that's not me. You can find the book
any major retailer for books. But also please strongly consider
(39:51):
supporting your independent bookstores. They need our support. Place Places, Place, place, Please.
You can find them at bookshop dot org. If you're
not sure, we're an independent book stories near you. And yeah,
I'm out in the world, so hopefully you'll see me someplace.
I'll be in Seattle and LA and New York in
the coming weeks, and workshops and trainings and webinars and
(40:16):
the whole night perfect.
Speaker 1 (40:18):
We will short to include all of that in our
show notes. Thank you so much for spending some time
with us today. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
Thank you for having me, Doctor Joy.
Speaker 1 (40:25):
Absolutely, I'm so glad Ailoua was able to join us
to share her expertise for this episode. To learn more
about her and her work, and to grab a copy
of her memoir, visit the show notes at Therapy for
Blackgirls dot Com slash Session three, p. Fifty five and
don't forget to text two of your girls right now
(40:45):
and tell them to check out the episode. If you're
looking for a therapist in your area, visit our therapist
directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. And
if you want to continue digging into this topic or
just be in community with other sisters, come on over
and join us in the Sister Circle. It's our cozy
corner of the Internet designed just for black women. You
(41:06):
can join us at community dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com.
This episode was produced by Frieda Lucas, Elise Ellis and
Zaria Taylor. Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all
so much for joining me again this week. I look
forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon.
Speaker 2 (41:25):
Take good care, what's
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:57):
for joining me for session three fifty five of the
Therapy for Black Girl's podcast. We'll get right into our
conversation after a word from our sponsors.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Hi. My name is Alua Arthur and I'm on the
Therapy for Black Girls podcast. I'm in session today unpacking
my work as a death doula.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
It is guaranteed that everyone on this earth will eventually die,
and yet the process is made difficult with considerations such
as appointing and authorized representative, leaving dependents behind, and other
bureaucratic formalities that can be outright cruel to deal with.
When you're already experiencing grief. Stepping in to help with
these considerations are death doulas, who work to make this
(01:46):
monumental transition as smooth as possible for both the dying
and their families. To talk with us today about what
it means to be a death doulah, I'm joined by
death doulah and newly published author of the memoir Briefly
Perfect Human Ailua. Author Alua is the founder of Going
with Grace, a death doulah training and end of life
planning organization that exists to support people as they answer
(02:09):
the question what must I do to be at peace
with myself so that I may live presently and die gracefully.
In our conversation today, we discuss the training and certifications
required to become a death doulah, how deathdulas assist both
the dying and their families in making end of life decisions,
and how dying means becoming comfortable with the idea of
(02:32):
leaning on our community for support. If something resonates with
you while enjoying our conversation, please share with us on
social media using the hashtag TBG in session, or join
us in the Sister Circle to talk more about the episode.
You can join us at community dot therapy for Blackgirls
dot com. Here's our conversation. Heylua, thank you so much
(02:57):
for joining us today.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Yeah, it's an honor to chat with you. So I
wonder if you could get started by telling us a
little bit about what inspired you to go into doing
the work of being a death doula.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Sure. About ten years ago, I was practicing law at
the Legal Aid Foundation of Los Angeles, and I grew
really really depressed, clinical depression, and I took a medical
leave of absence from work, and during that leave of absence,
I went to Cuba, where I met a fellow traveler
on a bus who had uterine cancer. We spent a
lot of time talking about her life. Then I started
(03:31):
asking her about her death and she answered, and it
was one of the first times that she felt safe enough,
comfortable enough to discuss the potential for her dying from
her disease. And it made me really sad that this
stranger had nobody that she could talk to death about.
But also for the first time I started looking at
my own life through the lens of my death. We
(03:53):
both had terminal illnesses. If left untreated depression certainly being
one of them in my estimation anyway, And so I
considered if my disease had killed me, what would I
have made of my life? And I wasn't happy with
what I saw, and so I decided to make some
changes in my life, which included studying death. But about
six months after I came back from Cuba, my brother
(04:13):
in law, Peter Saint John, became ill and I got
to support him through the end of his life. And
that's when I saw firsthand the grim reality of people
walking through the medical care system engaging with death and dying.
And I didn't like what I saw there either, So
I decided to do something about that too, and built
a death doula practice.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Wow, So tell me more about when you said you
started learning more about death. Were you enrolled in formal courses,
were you reading books? What was that practice?
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Like? I read everything I could get my hands on.
I talked to everybody about death. I mean, I'm talking
about the cashier at CVS and write aid, Okay, I'd
be like, have you ever thought about dying? Kind of
like the Barbie movie. I just was so full of
the conversation. I also found a death Midwiffrey program here
in Los Angeles through an organization called Crossings, where I
(05:01):
learned how to care for bodies after death and natural
death care principles and practices like green burials, et cetera.
But the practice that I have right now, the one
that I built, is one that I learned from studying
a bunch of different practice areas. Like I went to
my estate planning friends and asked them to sit with
them as they walk people through wills and trusts and
(05:23):
the states. I got a job at an I'll turnative
funeral home. I volunteered at hospices, got a job at
a hospice. I did as much as I could to
learn what it looked like to properly support people through
dying to build the practice that I have right now.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Wow, thank you for sharing it. And I'm curious to
know how you have been able to take care of
your own mental health doing this kind of work and
if you saw any change in your depressive symptoms after
switching to doing this kind of work.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
I felt a massive change in my depressive symptoms. Don't
get me wrong, I think depression is something that I'll
probably dance with my entire life. Maybe it's in my
chemistry and my DNA, it's just in the way that
I experienced the world. But I did feel a shift,
majorly because at the time I wasn't capable of much
of anything. I couldn't make meals, showering I only did
because I didn't want to stink, But other than that,
(06:13):
I wasn't really capable of doing much. And what I
found through my work was that well, mostly through being
with death and dying is first of all, the impermanence
in any emotional mental state that I'm experiencing, which allows
me to just be with it for what it is
and not think it's never going to end, which is
certainly something that I felt in the depths of my depression.
(06:33):
But next, also I have a little bit more clarity
of purpose of being. And I don't mean in my
work necessarily. While I thoroughly enjoy my work, I've gotten
a chance to sit with why I'm here and what
I enjoy about being here, which allows me to reframe
often when the symptoms come back, or when things start
(06:54):
getting to feel like I can't carry them anymore.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
So talk to me about your work. What does does
a day look like as a death.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Doulah sure for starters, let me just define so death
doulas do all of the non medical Karen support of
the dying person and the circle of support through the process.
And when I say dying person, I mean anybody who
has some awareness that one day death will come, which
means healthy people too that have started to live with
awareness of their mortality. We help healthy people complete comprehensive
(07:25):
end of life plans, and people that know what it
is that they're going to be dying of because they
have an illness, we help them create the most ideal
death for themselves under the circumstances. And after a death occurs,
we help family members wrap up affairs of their loved
one's life. A day in life typically looks like waking
up and checking to see who's still living. First of all,
(07:45):
a lot of gratitude that I woke up that morning,
and next also checking in to see what happened with
my clients overnight, probably go to a few end of
life planning consultations, do some home visits and check in
with the clients to see how folks are doing, and
then a lot of emails and paperwork. One thing that
I didn't really account for was that building a practice
meant that I was going to be an entrepreneur, which
(08:08):
meant that I had to build a business and run
a business. And that is not for the faint of heart. Okay,
So that was one of the most surprising difficulties in
getting this whole thing up and running.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Can you tell me more about like an end of
life consultation? What does that look like?
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Yeah, that looks like helping somebody fill out their end
of life plans and paperwork. Often I'm working with healthy
people when doing this, So we walk through an advanced
planning tool that covers about nine basic areas to make
sure that folks have a lot of their plans down.
I think most important is that people complete advance directives,
starting with your medical decision maker, who's going to make
(08:46):
your decisions for you in the event that you can
the event that you become incapacitated. That person is also
called a medical power attorney. Also important is life support
decision making. What do you want done in the event
that your life cannot be saved, but perhaps it can't
be prolonged for a bit longer, saving off natural death
from occurring. Also getting clear on your care and comfort,
(09:08):
how you want to be cared for near the end
of your life, what you want done with your body
after death, your services, considering your possessions, if you're going
to have a will or a trust or in a state,
what you want done, Also with your sentimental items, thinking
about your dependence and pet care, so dependence being children
(09:29):
or disabled adults that are under your care. Also considering
all your biographical information and details. And then also all
your accounts, your online accounts, like getting your passwords and
any accounts that hold financial information, making sure all those
are in there. But the last thing, which I find
most important is thinking through your values around living. Because
(09:50):
one beautiful thing that death does for us is put
a highlight on our lives. And so if we can
think about the values that we have in our living
and start getting clear on those right them down, that
can be a really really powerful tool and end of
life planning.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
And is this something that's typically done in conjunction with
other family members? Is there software involved in like housing
all the passwords and thinking through.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
The logistics of all of this great questions. I love
having families involved. Once about maybe three years or so ago,
I got to support three generations and end of life planning.
So they all came together around a dinner table and
the living room. There was probably about sixteen people there
and everybody filled out these documents. It's analog because I'm
(10:34):
a still very analog girl, but it's a document that
I created where we talked through all the items in there,
and then they get to keep it for the account cataloging.
Often I suggest that people write down the accounts that
hold financial information such as like Amazon and eBay, and
places where your credit card information might be saved, including
(10:55):
your banking information, etc. So that those can be easily accessed.
And I also encourage folks to sign up for some
password storage systems.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
And how are people typically like finding you to work
with you? What does your caseload I guess kind of
look like, Well, it looks like.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
A lot of different things. Lately, I'm not seeing clients
as much because I've gotten really really busy with my
book that's coming out and teaching death doulas. But people
find me a variety of ways. I think from all
of the word of mouth, because I've been able to
be with quite a few people in their considerations around dying,
and also through students, which is really great because folks
(11:34):
come to learn how to become a death dola and
then they start figuring the work out there. But I
think that as the work starts to penetrate more of
mainstream society, people get curious about it and start going
snooping trying to find one. And I'm really happy that
they do.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Yeah. I mean, and as you're talking, you know, a
lot of your work sounds like what we might think
happens in hospice. But I wonder could you tell me, like,
what is the difference between the world work that you
do in traditional hospice and how might those two fields collaborate.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
I'm so glad you asked. They're really collaborative. If you
ask me, we can just be an extra set of hands, eyes, ears,
human for the dying person in the family. Hospice often
has they hold all the medical stuff, so the doctor,
the nurses, the CNAs of the ends, certified nursing assistants,
licensed vocational nurse, et cetera. Folks that come in to
(12:27):
handle the physical needs of the dying person. Grant that
there also is a chaplain and a social worker that
might be part of the hospice team. But we get
to be a really holistic care, So I'm looking at
all of the client's needs in totality and making sure
that everything is covered. So there are things that the
hospice team won't do or can't do necessarily that the
(12:48):
doula can do. Also, I can be available when I
choose to be twenty four hours a day, whereas you
can't expect the doctor to pop in whenever you might want.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Got it? And I feel like sometimes hospice care is
paid for by insurance.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Correct, Yes, a lot of times it should be covered
okay care, Yeah, is.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
Your work covered by insurance at all?
Speaker 2 (13:07):
It's still private pay for now, largely because of licensing
requirements et cetera that we haven't totally found a way
through yet. Got it.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Got it?
Speaker 2 (13:16):
Okay?
Speaker 1 (13:17):
You say that sometimes like the family is involved with
the planning. How much of your work involves talking with
the family about the end of their loved ones life
a lot.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
My job is to support people who have some awareness
that death is coming, and that's not always a case
for somebody who's nearing the end of life. Some people
resist it all the way to the end, which means
that I can be hired by the family members to
support them as they support the person who's dying. There's
been many a time so when I've worked with a
caregiver who says, Hey, this looks like a mess and
(13:50):
it looks like death is coming, and what do I
need to do in order to prepare? What information do
I need? Et cetera. Also, the folks that are around
the dying person are also in a massive experience themselves
and also require some support. They are maybe dealing with
anticipatory grief or frustration or anger or whatever may be,
and they need support too. So we focus on the
(14:11):
dying person and the circle of support through that process.
So I'm curious.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
About all of the reading and the learning that you
were doing as you were preparing to start your organization
Going with Grace. What kinds of things did you learn
that you feel like have really become foundational to the
work you do with your organization.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
For starters, I really sunk into the impermanence of everything,
as I was just mentioning, is in order to be
with dying, we have to shift first, I think, into
the psychosocial, spiritual elements of it to allow us to
get into the practical things as well. Because the practical
(14:48):
don't make any sense unless we're also dealing with the
other stuff. And so when I started to like zoom
out and think about death and dying holistically is when
it allowed me to properly sit down and say, Okay,
what are the things that actually need to happen. Now
there are different entry points for the work, and some
clients aren't interested in talking about the emotional, relational, psychosocial,
(15:09):
spiritual elements of dying but really just want to get
their stuff done. But did two always come together one
way or another. So that was something that really supported
is thinking about dying theoretically and creating a framework for that.
And then from there, as I had to learn about
how deep bureaucracy is after death occurs, that really started
(15:30):
shifting the game for me. It's a whole beast after
somebody dies, trying to get all their fares wrapped up,
and I was not prepared for that at all.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Can you talk a little bit about some of the
things that surprised you with that process?
Speaker 2 (15:44):
My gosh, after my brother in law died, I was
trying to, briefly, I thought, brief help my sister before
I left to go take care of myself. Because I'd
been with them for a couple of months at that point,
and it was not quick. It wasn't brief at all.
I trying to transfer title of his car to his
nephew because we thought we'd just give the car away
(16:05):
after he dies. Turns out that's not the case at all.
It is a long drawn out process where the car
had to enter into the estate formerly and then through
the probate process. Then we had to determine who the
executor was going to be, and then the executor had
to go to the DMV and on and on and
on and on and on in order to do this.
That was just one thing, but also things like trying
to figure out what pension he'd held through his job,
(16:28):
or trying to get access to his cell phone because
we didn't have access to the passcode. I'd call or
try to reach out to some system and they want
to talk to him to get verification. I'd be like,
he's dead, Like it's part of the reason I called,
just because he died. It was like an unending wellspring
of bureaucracy and a lot of blocks and obstacles in
(16:52):
that bureaucracy as well. It was very foolish of me
to think that the bureaucratic rules would favor the grieving,
but they don't at all. In fact, you need to
have all your wits about you and be extra resource
in order to process something like that. But while doing
it in the midst of deep grief, it's cruel to me.
I can't understand for the life of me why the
(17:12):
systems are set up this way that make it that
much harder for people that are suffering to navigate.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
Right right, And ideally it sounds like somebody would work
with you before the end of their life so that
this stuff is kind of all taken care of.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
But does your work.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
Also sometimes start working with the family after a loved
one has passed to help with some of this. And
then how do you get permission, I guess, to kind
of speak on behalf of the family, Like, is there
some kind of paperwork that companies need to know that
you actually are authorized to speak on their famili's behalf.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
Yes, that is an authorized representative form. That's the form
that I use, and I'll have them fill out several
of them and just change the name of the company
that I'm trying to access. And sometimes it's really difficult
but yes, I often work with folks after the death
has occurred. In a few of them, there's been both
mom and dad have died at the same time, and
they've left adult children with multiple houses and lines of
(18:08):
credit and kids from one marriage kids from another marriage
trying to figure out who inherits who. In the couple
of cases that I've done, that one of them went
on for about a year and a half where we're
trying to piece together all the accounts that were open
and all the possessions that they had, et cetera. But
I went to law school, so my brain has been
(18:30):
highly trained to take in a big amount of information
and whittle it down to its finest, finest points. And
that cost me only one hundred and thirteen thousand dollars
and three years of my life. That aside that being
able to access information that way and use it that
way is really supportive in a situation like that, because
I can look big picture at all the things that
(18:50):
need to get done and all the things that we
need and shave it down and make it much easier
for the family members to digest afterward.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
Right right, more from our conversation after the break, But first,
a quick snip better what's coming next week on TVG.
Speaker 3 (19:05):
I believe a lot of the misconceptions that I dislike
that I wish we could just completely eliminate are the
ones that revolve around how people perceive you based off
which organization you're in. So if you say you're a
Sigma woman, a Delta woman, a Zeta woman, or an
Alpha woman, people instantly have this idea of how you think,
how you move, how you cook, even how you navigate
(19:27):
life in your relationships. But the reality of it is
you cannot generalize us based off our organizations. If anything,
that should inspire you to get to know us about
our values and our morals better.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
So you mentioned that a lot of your work now
is training other death doulas. Can you talk about what
that training process looks like, what is required.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
To become a death doulah? That's my favorite part. Well,
for starters, I think it's really important for folks to
have a bit of comfort and emotional depth to not
run from big emotions because there's a lot of them
when death and dying come around. That doesn't mean that
you can't have any In fact, I think my sensitivity
and my capacity to access my emotions is really a
(20:18):
strength for me in this work. But the training course
that we have at Going with Grace is a fourteen week,
fourteen module program either done online or in retreat in person.
And I think any death do the training program worth
its weight should have the individual look at the work
through the lens of self. It's wildly important that each
individual have a personal relationship with death so that we
(20:41):
can avoid collapsing the space between ourselves and the other.
If I'm clear about what my relationship with death looks like,
then I won't put all my fears on you, and
vice versa, I won't take yours on But we look
at our conscious dying. We bring our attention to our
own death. We consider the hospitals and the role of
medicine in our work, even though we do non medical care.
(21:04):
We also look at signs of dying, understand what's happening
with the body. We do some natural death care, learn
how to wash and prepare bodies after death. That we
support family members, and we support folks in home funerals
and learning about the funeral industry, legacy, ritual and meaning making,
so helping folks create rituals for themselves, advance planning and
(21:26):
advanced directives, wrapping up affairs after our loved one dies, grief, breavement, burnout,
and then lastly self care and business and practice building.
So the course is set up to move through all
the modalities and end of life care and hope that
the person who's shown up for the work can find
an area that feels really good to them to carry
out there.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
Got it. A lot of this sounds similar to what
the training to become a therapist is in some ways, right,
And I'm wondering, like, how do you teach and how
did you learn in your own training to kind of
manage your own emotions around either your death or the
sadness of working with somebody else who's dying, Like how
are you managing your emotions related to these kinds of
(22:08):
things happening?
Speaker 2 (22:10):
So many of us that come to the work of death,
and I can imagine saying for therapists are highly empathic people.
Most of us came because somebody died in a way
that broke our hearts or experienced something so beautiful and
ide like we want everybody to have it. And that
means that so many of us are willing to take
so much on for other people, and so I've had
(22:31):
to work really hard on shoring up my boundaries and
getting clear on what belongs to me, what is mine
to carry, and what is not, because otherwise I'd just
be walking around like with the weight of the world
to death and grief on my shoulders. So recognizing what
is mine as opposed to what belongs to somebody else
is really really helpful. Can I just tell you a
quick story about a client? Yeah, please, Okay. Years ago,
(22:54):
I went to go see a client and her sister.
I have three biological sisters. They were young black women,
and one sister was dying, and I was with them
through the time that they were there in the hospital.
When the doctor came in, I would listen, ask questions,
support them and making sure that they had the information
they needed. And when the doctors were gone, we just
(23:14):
we sat together for a while. At some point, the sister,
who wasn't yet dying, started crying and I was overcome
with emotion for her. Her sister, who was in the bed,
also started crying. I started weeping with them, and when
I tell you, just all my sister sadness, fears of
loss came up in that space. I was certainly in
(23:36):
my own emotional experience I was with them, but also
in my own experience, I was collapsing the space between
the tulus. I excused myself, got it together, and came
back into the space, and then eventually went home. And
I beat myself up for like a few hours, thinking, gosh,
they called me to come in there and hold the container,
and I collapsed directly into and I felt awful about that,
(23:59):
just terrible. A few days later, her sister calls and
she thanked me. She said, it was the first time
everybody else who was coming into the space had been
so professional, or they said things like sorry for your loss,
or they've spoken very technical terms, and it was the
first time that a professional and I'm using air quotes,
(24:19):
expressed some humanity. And she was very grateful for that.
And since then, I've given myself a lot of grace
for crying, because I cry everything. I cried joy, I
cry beauty, I cry frustration and anger and sadness and
all the rest too. So I think as long as
I can be aware of what belongs to me and
what belongs to somebody else and hold my boundaries tight,
(24:41):
then it works out.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
Okay, Yeah, thank you so much for sharing that. I mean,
you know, and again similar to our training, like we
understand that sometimes there are certain cases you can't take
on because you overidentify right with the client and so
then the idiot is harder to hold that boundary. I'm
wondering what it looks like for you as a trainer.
So maybe sometimes have to have difficult conversations with trainees
(25:04):
about maybe you need to take a step back from
the work, or like what kind of work they need
to personally do to be able to hold space for
a family or a person.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
For starters, we ask folks that have experienced to death
within the last six months to circle back later because
sometimes folks are coming as an expression of their own
grief and they want to know heal it through this
experience and maybe but also maybe just take a breath,
take a minute, take a nap, and then come back
and let's consider it. But next we do a lot
(25:33):
of work around the shadow self and the space from
which we are giving. Those are some tough conversations sometimes
because we have people that want to come in and
help everybody and fix everything, and there's no fixing death
and grief and loss. And also what part of you
feels like you are the one who can fix somebody
(25:55):
else's something. What is this like save you're or healer
thing that you're working with that says that it is
mine to do on behalf of somebody. So making sure
that folks are checking that as often as possible. And
there is a really dense conversation about privilege, I think,
and bias and so so much of our training also
focuses on looking at the privilege that we carry to
(26:16):
be in this position to be able to support other people,
and also the privilege that we carry just by virtue
of our background in our past and our history and
our intersections of identity, because those often impact I think,
how we want to show up to support the other person.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
Mm hmm, yeah, thank you, thank you for that. So
you mentioned that a part of why insurance does not
cover this at least as yet is that they're concerns
around like licensing and like figuring all of that out.
Are there particular certifications that a death doulah has or
like how would we vet if we are looking for
somebody to provide this kind of care, how would we
find like trustworthy individuals?
Speaker 2 (26:52):
Well, there's no official certification body, no certifying body for
death dulas. However, we're organized by the National End of
Life Doulah Alliance and they have a proficiency assessment that
any depth do loa can take and when you pass
that test, you get a little badge that you can
put on your website or to whoever asks, to show
that you have the basic core competencies of the work.
(27:12):
But I suggest that when folks are looking for someplace
to seek training, that you find somebody that you resonate with,
like somebody that feels good in your spirit, and somebody
who's doing the work the way that you would like
to do it, because that's likely what you're going to
learn and then up to you to decide how you
carry it on out there. But for folks that are
looking for a doula, I suggest first of all that
(27:33):
you check out the National and of Life Doula Alliance
to see if that person has a proficiency badge. You
also look at the organization where they got their training
and who are behind that organization, because since we're not
licensed or credentialed in any way, there are a lot
of different training programs popping up and you can get
a doulah certification in two hours, or you can spend
(27:56):
three months deep in the consideration. And so consider the organization,
the person's coming from, or their background in history, because
they may not have gone to get any formal training,
but may have been the one that went with their
grandma for years when they were growing up into the
community to support the people that were dying. So there's
a number of different ways to access training. Got it.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
So you've already offered a little bit of this, But
what other suggestions would you have for somebody who's interested
in completing a training to become a death DOULA.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
Volunteer for hospice is a great place to start also because,
like I was saying, so many people are coming to
this because somebody in their life died, and it's a
very different ballgame to be with people that you're not
emotionally connected to and they're dying. And granted, I grow
close with every client that I get to be with,
but being able to volunteer for hospice allowed me to
(28:47):
see what it's like when I know these folks, and
it was eye opening to see if I really wanted
to do this work. It also gives you an insight
into how the systems work, so that if you do
choose to do the work, you can understand how to
navigate it a little bit better. Read books, pick up books,
talk to people about death and dying, Attend some death cafes,
(29:09):
host a few death cafes. That's an opportunity for folks
to get together just to talk about the things that
are on their hearts around death and dying with no agenda.
Necessarily start to be in the work, talk about it
and see how it's landing for folks, and see how
it's landing for you, because you might find that being
the weirdo in the corner talking about death is not
your jam. And if it is welcome, we'll be here
waiting for you.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
So I had not heard the term death cafe. So
is that kind of, like you said, just kind of
like an open forum for people to talk about like
death and dying.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
Yeah, so death cafe is actually a branded term. There's
an organization called death Cafe, and they have some rules
and guidelines for hosting a death cafe. But yeah, it's
an open forum. There is nothing to sell, nothing to get,
but rather an opportunity for people to talk through what
they're experiencing and what they're curious about.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
Got it more from our conversation after the break. I'm
wondering if there have been some patterns that you have
seen come up with clients when you are working with,
specifically with the person who is towards the end of
(30:18):
their life. Are their particular conversations or things that have
been really difficult for them to deal with that you
want to share with the audience.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
Gosh, so many of them. Every part of who we
are as humans shows up as we die, and so
often the things that we struggle with while we're living
are going to show up and are dying as well.
And perhaps this is because of who I am and
where I'm at in my life right now, but I'm
being called to share the conversations around surrender and vulnerability
that people really really struggle with at some point in
(30:49):
our lives. This is, if we live long enough to
die as a result of disease rather than an accident
or sudden death of some sort, we will become disabled.
We're going to need the support of another on some level.
We live in community, and we die in community as well.
People don't just run off into the corner and die
like some animals do, but rather it requires a whole
(31:10):
team of people in this industrialized age, which means that
folks need to learn how to surrender into receiving the
support of another person. It's a lot of work, it's
a big obstacle to overcome if you haven't been practicing
it while you're living. And so that's one thing that
comes up a lot, and I think something that Black
(31:31):
women really also need to pay attention to, because I
think for so long we've just put the weight of
the world on our shoulders and on our backs and
have found ways to cope and adapt to carrying it
by ourselves. But we don't need to. And also, at
some point we're going to have to surrender and let
somebody else support us to So that's a big thing
that comes up often.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
It feels like that conversation is coming up in so
many spaces right like that in all of these conversations
around black women, Like this idea of surrender and vulnerability
and like being able to ask for help feels like
a theme across so many different areas.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
It's time. It's time. I am tired of being strong.
Let me just keep it all the way real but
then also noticing how hard it is sometimes for me
to just accept when somebody is showing up to help. Well,
I want to feel like I have it all together,
but you know, surrendering into the help of another doesn't
mean I'm not strong. And also what values are and
strong I don't want to have to be. I'm okay
(32:29):
with being tender and a delicate flower, which I actually am.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
So for the clients that you work with who are
not necessarily aware that they are at the end of
their life, so they're doing more kind of preventive kinds
of things getting their affairs together, can you talk about
some of the things that you talk with them about
to kind of get them started on this path of
dealing with the end of their life, because I don't think,
you know, like most of us are not in the
(32:57):
grocery store talking about death like you're saying, so, how
do you even enter into that conversation.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
Well, most of these people called me and so they're
ready for it in some capacity, But a lot of
them are coming because of an event in their lives.
I can think of a client not that long ago
who had a pulmonary embolism that ended her in the
hospital for over three weeks, and once she came out
of the hospital, she was like, listen, I'm healthy again,
but let's get this together. I also have a lot
(33:25):
of clients that are raising children that have elderly parents
or watching their parents die and don't want that experience
for themselves. They don't want to recreate it for their kids,
and so they're like, let me get as much together
as I can right now. And so often people are
starting to think about it, and then they call and say, hey,
this is just an idea. What do you think? And
(33:46):
sometimes a conversation is, well, I don't think I'm dying
right now, so why should I plan? And so that
I always say, well, how soon it's too soon to
start preparing for something you know one day is going
to happen. I'm a last minute for sure. I know
I'm going on a trip about the flight, but I
wait until the last minute before I go. I'm not
(34:07):
going to be that way with my dying. I'm gonna
spend some time. I've been spending the rest of my
life thinking about it and preparing myself in some capacity.
And so let's like we can warm up to the
question and to the idea.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
Got it, got it, And I'm wondering, what is the transition?
Is the best word I can think of that maybe accurate.
Like you are somebody who's like kind of constantly working
with people who are their lives are ending, and so
you become very close with the family, it sounds like,
and so it's one of the only professions I can
think of where you're constantly having to kind of deal
(34:39):
with these relationships ending. What does the aftercare process look
like for yourself when continuing to support yourself and doing
this work.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
It's not so glamorous immediately afterward. It looks like potato chips.
Looks like kettle potato chips, mostly the salt and vinegar ones.
Something about the fat and the crunch and the salt,
and like the bite in my jaw reminds me. It
grounds me back in my body. I think it's an
embodiment practice that I'm not conscious of, but it brings
me right back into the body, that allows me to
(35:08):
show up those boundaries again and remember that this is
mine and all that is not all the rest I
don't have to carry anymore. I often take baths also
when I get back from seeing clients sitting in the
water and sitting there and watching as it all goes
back down the drain for it to wash away what
I'm carrying that isn't mine. As we're talking before about
(35:30):
shadow work and being clear about what place I'm giving from,
how I showed up in that space giving myself and
my clients a lot of grace. But longer term, I
stay in touch with some of my clients, the family
members after their death and learning how to start shifting
the dynamic of the relationship from one where I was
available all the time and in a really deep emotional
(35:54):
experience for them to one that allows them to be
on their process with some support in the background. I
also cry a lot. I grieve a lot. I grieve
for my clients. I grieve with my clients. I grieve
for myself because as you were, I think alluding to
I've grown in relationship with these people and then they die,
(36:14):
and my heartbreaks every time I think I've just gotten
better attending to it through my tears and my crunch
of potato chips.
Speaker 1 (36:23):
Yeah, thank you for sharing it. So you already shared
that a lot of people kind of are brought to
this work because there is a death, experience of some
experience in their life, and then they think, Oh, I
want to do this for work. I'm curious to know
what has this work taught you about living and what
do you feel like clients have kind of shared about
life as they are nearing the end of their lives.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
It's the most basic thing. But this work has just
taught me again and again about the power of our
time and our existence and the miracle is to be living.
Being present in a room where life has just left
a body is profound. Not only does it humble me
(37:06):
to the incredible mystery of life, but it also reminds
me that I still have it for now. My body
is still animated by that intangible thing that allows me
to make eye contact and to eat cake, and to
dance in the rain, and to sit and stare at
a bird for a while, to speak my truth, to
(37:26):
do what I want when I want to the extent
that I can within the legal rules, and all that
is an invitation into life. So being around dying repeatedly
is an invitation into life. And I'm grateful, very grateful.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
So you've shared this a little bit, but I definitely
want to talk more. You're preparing to release your first book,
briefly Perfect Human. So can you tell us a little
bit about the book and how you want readers to
engage with it and what you want us to take
away from it?
Speaker 2 (37:57):
Oh? My yes, this book is was really an opportunity
for me to lay out my thoughts and ideas around
how we die. It's a memoir, so it tracks my
journey into death care from the practice of law and
my life thus far, looking back and seeing how death
had been interacting with my life all the way up
(38:19):
in and through arriving at death care. And it also
highlights a decent amount of my client stories. So readers,
I think, have an opportunity to look at their lives
through the perspective of their own death through mine as
an example, and also learn a little bit about the
practice and the work itself, and also hopefully chuckle a
little bit. I think I'm hilarious. I was making myself
(38:41):
laugh as I was writing the book, and I think
that some of that carried through. My hope is as
I was saying before, I hope that this book serves
as an invitation into the lives of the people that
are reading it, as a reminder that this life is
fleeting and precious, and that being here for all it
can be a tremendous gift, not to discount the absolute
(39:04):
privilege it is to be able to think about our
mortality consistently and just even to take a time to
read a book, but to be with the fact that
one day I'll die, and to use it in a
way that serves my life. Yeah, that's a gift.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
Beautiful, beautiful, Thank you so much. I think people will
enjoy this read. So tell us where we can stay
connected with you, Alula. What is your website and your
social media channels and where can we find a copy.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
Of the book? Sure, you can find us anywhere on
the internet at goingwigrace dot com or on Instagram also
going with Grace, but with some underscores. Otherwise you'll end
up at like a yellow labrador or dog someplace in
Kentucky and that's not me. You can find the book
any major retailer for books. But also please strongly consider
(39:51):
supporting your independent bookstores. They need our support. Place Places, Place, place, Please.
You can find them at bookshop dot org. If you're
not sure, we're an independent book stories near you. And yeah,
I'm out in the world, so hopefully you'll see me someplace.
I'll be in Seattle and LA and New York in
the coming weeks, and workshops and trainings and webinars and
(40:16):
the whole night perfect.
Speaker 1 (40:18):
We will short to include all of that in our
show notes. Thank you so much for spending some time
with us today. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
Thank you for having me, Doctor Joy.
Speaker 1 (40:25):
Absolutely, I'm so glad Ailoua was able to join us
to share her expertise for this episode. To learn more
about her and her work, and to grab a copy
of her memoir, visit the show notes at Therapy for
Blackgirls dot Com slash Session three, p. Fifty five and
don't forget to text two of your girls right now
(40:45):
and tell them to check out the episode. If you're
looking for a therapist in your area, visit our therapist
directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. And
if you want to continue digging into this topic or
just be in community with other sisters, come on over
and join us in the Sister Circle. It's our cozy
corner of the Internet designed just for black women. You
(41:06):
can join us at community dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com.
This episode was produced by Frieda Lucas, Elise Ellis and
Zaria Taylor. Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all
so much for joining me again this week. I look
forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon.
Speaker 2 (41:25):
Take good care, what's
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