Session 361: Up Close with Tiffany Cross

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:11):
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy Hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or

(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much

(00:57):
for joining me for session three sixty one of the
Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our
conversation after a word from our sponsors.

Speaker 2 (01:05):
Hi, everybody, I'm Tiffany Cross and I'm on the Therapy
for Black Girls podcast, and I'm so excited to be here.

Speaker 1 (01:20):
Many of us were devastated in twenty twenty two when
MSNBC decided to cancel The Cross Connection, a news show
that was one of its kind in choosing to prioritize
the voices and stories of people of color. Since then,
the show's host, Tiffany D. Cross, has been relentless in
her current efforts to tell the multi generational stories of
black women on her latest podcast, Across Generations. Tiffany is

(01:45):
a journalist, TV host, podcast host, author, and speaker. A
twenty twenty fellow of Harvard's Institute of Politics, she has
spent more than twenty years navigating politics, media, labor, all
communities of color, and the private sector. She harnessed her
decades of experience in the release of her first best
selling book, Say It Louder, Black Voters, White narratives, and

(02:09):
Saving our Democracy. During our conversation, we discuss what it
means to feel as if you have to constantly center
the white gays to be successful, how to hold space
for feelings of both grief and joy, and the importance
of multi generational mentorship for Black women of all ages.
If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please

(02:31):
share with us on social media using the hashtag TBG
in session, or join us over in the sister Circle.
To talk more about the episode, You can join us
at community dot therapy for Blackgirls dot Com. Here's our conversation.
Thank you so much for joining us today, Tiffany.

Speaker 3 (02:51):
Thank you for having me it.

Speaker 1 (02:53):
Feels like this is a reunion because we were together
last year at a conference in Miami, the Accelerator Conferences,
to facilitate a conversation between you and your great friend
Angela Rye all about you know, what was going on
in your world. And so I love that we are
seeing you back on our screens and in our earbuds
with your new shows. And so I wonder if you

(03:14):
could talk a little bit about you have such an
extensive journalism background, what influenced you to do podcasting now?
And can you tell us a little bit about your
new shows, Native Land and across Generations.

Speaker 2 (03:27):
Yeah, well I don't want to take over your podcast,
Doctor Joy. But but bro we get into all of that.
I just want to thank you for having me for
starters and congratulate you because when we were on stage
together last year, your book was coming out.

Speaker 3 (03:39):
So congratulations on your book.

Speaker 2 (03:41):
Thank you you referenced our girl group, So thank you
for the love and the shout out, and thank you
for doing such an amazing job on stage with Angela
and me.

Speaker 3 (03:50):
And you're saying podcasts. So is this not a therapy session?
Because it's all therapy.

Speaker 1 (03:53):
I thought it might feel like that in some places.

Speaker 2 (03:57):
It's about to turn into one. Tartter girls about to
turn into one. So how did I get into podcasting.
I'll tell you I'm still very much a TV person,
and so both of these podcasts have a video component
to them. So I'll talk about Native Land first, because
that's how people know me through politics. Angela wanted to
do this podcast that focused on the political space because

(04:18):
there's such a need for it when you look across
the atmosphere and the marketplace, we still have this very
bad habit of centering white perspective, white voices, white thought,
and white comfort. And I think all of us who
are in this space who operated without fear, we did

(04:39):
not center that. And so I think we defined the
differences between black voices and black faces because there's a difference,
as you know, and that's no shade to the people
who are black faces and not black voices, because sometimes
that's what you're there to do.

Speaker 3 (04:55):
You might be an expert.

Speaker 2 (04:57):
On the law, and you don't necessarily show up as
a black person. You show up as an attorney first
and a black person second. For me, I show up
as a black person no matter what space I'm in,
no matter what I'm representing, and so for Native Land,
it's myself, Angela Rai and Andrew Gillum. And it feels
great to be able to have conversation with two people

(05:17):
who I hold near and dear.

Speaker 3 (05:18):
There's a multi decade friendship already there.

Speaker 2 (05:21):
We talk over each other all the time, we dissect politics,
we don't always have the same opinion. We argue, we beef,
we have the brawl all on camera, and after that
it's over. And so even though it's a podcast, I
very much look at it as like a television show,
and I think if we all had the bandwidth, or
if there was an outlet they were willing to pay us,
then we would probably turn this into like a five

(05:42):
day a week morning show, because there's nothing like it
that exists now.

Speaker 3 (05:46):
That is for the political piece.

Speaker 2 (05:47):
That's how I started in that podcast, because Angela called
me and said, let's do this. I also think, doctor Joy,
that we deserve a space that is not centered on
saving the white man's democracy. And I say the white
democracy because black folks built this country and black folks
uphold this democracy. But this democracy was certainly designed by
and for white people. We've adapted it adapted to it

(06:10):
and uphold it. But to me, I don't know how
you feel. I'm exhausted with it. Part of me is like,
y'all hell bent on giving the country to Trump, then.

Speaker 3 (06:17):
Go for it.

Speaker 2 (06:18):
Obviously, we'll show up and do everything we can to
preserve our sanity, our lives, and our livelihoods.

Speaker 3 (06:23):
But it's just exhausting.

Speaker 2 (06:25):
So I needed a space where I could show up
and not talk about politics, where I could just talk
to us, where I could just be in sisterhood, fellowship.

Speaker 3 (06:33):
And community with people who look like me.

Speaker 2 (06:35):
And I don't have to tell you when we come
together as black women, there is something magical that happens
at the conference you reference.

Speaker 3 (06:42):
It was a see of beautiful, striking, highly accomplished black women.

Speaker 2 (06:48):
If one person who does not look like us enters
the space, everyone is aware and everyone shifts a little bit.
When it's just us, we excel, we breathe, we relax,
And so that is the very space that brought across generations.
When my show was unceremoniously canceled abruptly at MSNBC, Will
Packer was one of the first people who reached out

(07:08):
to me and said, will pack our media would love
to be in business with Tiffany Cross and maybe much
to his regret now, but I was like, here's three
show treatments, will I'm ready to go. And so we
have been in business ever since Impressing the Gas and
there'll be other projects, but I'm most excited about the
cross generations Black Women's Center will success. And so I'm

(07:29):
grateful that he was willing to put capital behind an
idea and an amazing team that helps pull this show together.
Each week, it's an elder, a younger and me, So
someone old enough to be my mom or significantly older
than me, and someone younger to be my daughter or
significantly younger than me, and we come together to unpack
an issue. And it really is like therapy for black

(07:51):
girls in the sense that anytime I get to be
in community with my sisters, I feel seen heard and
I'm a little less clenched, you know, I can breathe
a little easier, and I just think, after all the
things that we've done for this country as black women,
we deserve that space too.

Speaker 1 (08:07):
Oh. I love that. So this is a beautiful revelation
because when we were together last year, you mentioned that
something was on the horizon, but of course you weren't
quite ready to share that. So I love that this
is what we now know was on the other side
of that. And so I'm curious, because you have such
a beautiful and important background in political journalism that one

(08:28):
of your treatments was for this show that allowed you
to be very different. Right, Like you didn't say, Okay,
now I want to do something else that is the
Tiffany Cross Show talking about political things and other kinds
of important ideas, But you went to something that I
think is not very different but allows you to show
up in a very different place. I wonder can you
say more about, like why you wanted that to be

(08:48):
the first venture that you were doing with Will Sure.

Speaker 2 (08:51):
You know, in an ideal world where white people don't
have so much control over the kind of content we
put out, I would combine.

Speaker 3 (08:59):
Both of these states.

Speaker 2 (09:00):
We have to be all things to all people all
the time, and so politics, it was my professional grooming,
is how I came up in this space. It matters
to me and not just our domestic policy, but I
think our foreign policy as well. Just how we show
up in this world I think is very relevant to
all of us. But like I said, doctor Joy, it's exhausting.

(09:21):
It is just exhausting. And so on the show that
I had on air, I would try to intersperse culture
and conversations that we were having amongst ourselves and our
group chats at brunch, at our book clubs, and so
having no space to combine both of these things, Like
I said, I was grateful to Will for just providing
a space to do that, because we get to be

(09:44):
multi layered, we get to be multifaceted. I get to
have depths and dimension to who I am as a woman,
as a Black woman, as a black woman in this country,
we bear the bruises and the beauty of our ancestry
and how that shows up in our everyday life, from
the ancestral trauma that we carry to how we try

(10:06):
to self repair on this journey home to self matters
so much in every aspect. And I've always tried to
be a very unfiltered person. You know, I don't know
how to pretend. You know, it's only one version of
Tivity Cross and either you're gonna see it or you ain't.
But if you meet me, it is just this one
version of me. And I wanted other people to know Hey,

(10:27):
if you feel down and sad, sometimes I do too.
If you wake up and your first thought is, oh, man,
I can't believe I ate that last night. I'm so
mad at myself, and your first thoughts about self are negative,
I want you to know I have those moments too.
I have those mornings too. And if you are surrounded
by people who are like, my mom is my best
friend and we're so close, but you've got a jack
that relationship with your mom, I want you to know

(10:48):
I do too. I wanted to create a space where
nobody had to show up as the Instagram version of themselves,
where no one had to be like the highlight reel
of their life, this filtered version of themselves.

Speaker 3 (11:00):
I just didn't want that.

Speaker 2 (11:02):
I came up with the idea doctor Joy because I
feel like every black woman has this experience.

Speaker 3 (11:07):
But you'll correct me if you didn't.

Speaker 2 (11:08):
When I was young, I sat at the kitchen table
with my grandmother and I was her sous chef essentially
because you know, she tell me, chopped these onions, dice
these peppers. She would show me the consistency of mac
and cheese before you put it in the oven, the
consistency of dressing, and I was supposed to look how
to corn bread, how you break it up with your hands,
and all that for dressing, and she was teaching me

(11:29):
so much.

Speaker 3 (11:29):
I just absorbed her.

Speaker 2 (11:30):
But what was happening at that time, I absorbed more
than her cooking. I absorbed her spirit. I absorbed what
she told me about life, because what was also happening
is she was telling me about life and love and
joy and pain and grief and child wearing and heartbreak
and how to harness these things and how to navigate

(11:52):
and manage life. And I'm so grateful to her. She
passed away in twenty fourteen. My spirit has been missing her.
It feels like a part of my I guess limb
that connected me to the earth.

Speaker 3 (12:03):
And so I thought, I really wanted.

Speaker 2 (12:04):
To create that kitchen spirit that I had sitting with her.
And I look at a lot of young women with
all the feelings. I see the moronic beauty of youth
that they hold, and I look at with envy, with curiosity,
with pity, with joy, with nostalgia, all the things, and
I think, man, they need some gladys Read in their life.

(12:26):
That's my grandmother's name, glad to read. And so that's
how I came up with the idea because young women
would say, Oh, Tiffany, I'd love for you to be
my mentor, or Tiffany, can I get time on your schedule?

Speaker 3 (12:35):
And I'm thinking mentor, like't you like twenty eight? I'm
still trying to figure my shit out myself.

Speaker 2 (12:40):
And then when you talk to a twenty eight year old,
it's like, oh, yeah, I guess I am, you know,
almost twenty years older than you, and I do have
wisdom to impart, but I still feel like I need
so much wisdom. And so I wanted to book in
myself with these two entities that I felt had something
to offer me, because I didn't want to create a
space where we're looking at the twenty something like get up.

Speaker 3 (13:00):
My lawn kind of knowledge.

Speaker 2 (13:02):
They have something to share too, they have something to
teach too, and with the elder, they have something to teach.
So it's really a conversation, not so much an interview,
but a conversation. And it's much like what I used
to have with my grandmother. I used to annoy my grandmother,
doctor Joy because I would ask her so many questions,
like Grandma, why did you leave Georgia, and how old
were you and Grandma? How old was Uncle Charles when

(13:22):
you moved here? And why did you and Grandpa picked
this house? And she would let me get like five
questions in before she said, ooh, chow okay, come over
here and keep dicing these onions and come snap these peas.

Speaker 3 (13:31):
So it was just those times, and I really.

Speaker 2 (13:33):
Go out of my way to try to create that.
I built it for you, I built it for us.
It's an invitation. It's not just an invitation, it's an
invocation into all that we hold, the stories we share,
to rest away our narrative from anybody who would dare
try to take it and just sit around this magical
space that we create. And it's hard to explain this.

(13:56):
This is why I'm happy to be in conversation with you.
It's hard to explain this to people who don't look
like us. You have to be of us to understand
it and what it means. Truly, it is like therapy
because I have had some very emotional episodes on that show,
and every time we record, I am committed to being
vulnerable and open in hopes that we can be a

(14:17):
little less filtered in our everyday lives.

Speaker 1 (14:20):
I think that has definitely come through. But you recently
released an episode in honor I think of Mother's Day,
you know, the holiday that just passed, and talked about
a very difficult relationship that you've had with your mom,
And I think that there is often so much shame
and guilt around the relationships we have with our parents, right,
and so to be able to be a black woman
and share those things, I think it just creates space

(14:41):
for other people to see. Everybody doesn't have an Instagram
perfect kind of relationship, and you don't have to feel
bad about it, right, There's nothing that you did necessarily
that led to the relationship feeling that way.

Speaker 2 (14:53):
That was one of our most emotionally raw episodes. I
went into the recordings thing I was not going to
tell the story, worry about coming home and thinking my
mom was gone, And then we got into it because
the elder was so transparent and raw with her story,
and I just felt, man, I owe this to the audience.
I was trying to strike a balance between not telling

(15:16):
my mother's story but telling my story out of respect
for my mother. She has her story to tell, yet
her story is part of my story and so I
only wanted to share my mother's role in my life
as it impacted who I am today. My mother still
I do not believe has heard this episode, and I

(15:36):
have not given her heads up about it because I
think it would be disruptive to our relationship.

Speaker 3 (15:42):
And I have to.

Speaker 2 (15:43):
Honor that my memories are not my mother's memories, and
I think some of these memories are just too painful
for her to revisit. But that was one that really
struck a chord with the audience because I think people
were surprised to know that about me, that I left
home at sixteen, and I tell my story. That is
the through line in all these episodes. I tell all
my business doctor joy, Hey, can I tell you I'm

(16:05):
curious your perspective of this as a mental health professional
because I talked about this in therapy. So I tell
this story and I'm very open about my life, my
dating life, my upbringing, everything. So after the Mother Special air,
there are people who I know and then they're strangers.
And so when hundreds of strangers have been messaging me,
dming me, leaving public comments, coming up to me and saying, oh,

(16:29):
I've really connected with this episode and thank you, and
I feel grateful to them, like, thank you so much.

Speaker 3 (16:35):
Then there are people who.

Speaker 2 (16:36):
I know but I don't know know, like they're like
associate people I've known, just seen from around the way,
you know, like we've been professional colleagues, and when they
say something it makes me so uncomfortable.

Speaker 3 (16:49):
I don't know why that is, but I.

Speaker 2 (16:51):
Feel like you a little out of pocket talking to
me about my business and what do you mean, what
do you think you know about me and my mind?

Speaker 3 (16:56):
Don't talk to me about my but I'm the one
who put it out there.

Speaker 2 (16:59):
But a part of me feels like, do you think
you have some sort of insight into my life now?
And now you're coming up to me almost with pity talking.
I just don't like it, And so I'm trying to
unpack that and why I feel that way.

Speaker 3 (17:13):
Because strangers, I'm like, yes, we have commonality and thank
you for sharing your story.

Speaker 2 (17:18):
But people who are not like my girls girls, but
I just know you coming up for sending me messages
like oh.

Speaker 3 (17:23):
My god, I had no idea and I'm thinking about you.
I am outright offended by it. So I don't even know.
I don't know why that is, but it's how I feel.

Speaker 1 (17:32):
So a couple of thoughts. So there is something that
is called the vulnerability hangover. So after you have shared
something pretty public and very vulnerable, there is this sense of,
oh my gosh, now I'm in front of a crowd
naked kind of experience and it sounds like maybe some
of that is what you were talking about, but it
also feels like there's this like judgment criticism kind of

(17:52):
piece that feels like it is not coming from like
a we are the same, we are shared. It feels
like now they are creating a story about who you
in your life based on something that you shared.

Speaker 2 (18:02):
Yes, that's I think that is the part I don't like.
There is a little bit of a vulnerability hangover, but
it's like I've triumph. I'm telling a story about how
I became this woman when I talk about my childhood,
and so when people are like, oh, I'm praying for you,
and I don't know, I just feel like, ain't nobody
asking for your pity. This is my testimony and thank you.

(18:24):
I'm doing just fine. Thank you, even though on some
days I'm not doing just fine.

Speaker 3 (18:27):
But it's not solely because of that. But I feel
this way in therapy. Sometimes you know it's my therapist,
and Jo'll ask like, what's happening this week and what's
going on and how are you?

Speaker 2 (18:36):
And sometimes I want to say, what's going on with you?
I'm in here telling about my business?

Speaker 3 (18:39):
What's your store? Are you seeing somebody like you? I
don't know anything about you?

Speaker 1 (18:43):
Yes, So I love that you are sharing that. Tiffany,
thank you so much for that, because I think that
even that is a very common experience, right, and it's
really hard, I think because that is a part of
what makes therapy safe for you, is that you're not
coming to therapy to hear about me and what's going
on in my life, like they know that I am
space for you. But it is awkward, right, because in
no other relationship do you share so vulnerably with somebody

(19:07):
and then you don't know anything about them. So I
wonder if you have told your therapist that, because that
could be a beautiful question or beautiful conversation to open
up that you have that feeling.

Speaker 2 (19:17):
Sometimes I do tell her that because when I come in,
she'll say how are you, And my instinct is to say,
however I am, but then to retort, well, how are you?
And I stop myself because one, I know she won't
answer in a real way, but also that's not while
we're there. So I have shared that with her, and
I will tell you this. My therapist is a white woman.

(19:38):
This sounds terrible because I support black doctors. Every other
doctor I.

Speaker 3 (19:41):
Have is black.

Speaker 2 (19:43):
But I will tell you it goes back to the
vulnerability hangover and the connectivity. If you are a black therapist,
you're dope. If I'm coming to see you, you must
be highly recommended.

Speaker 3 (19:52):
You're dope.

Speaker 2 (19:53):
I don't want to see my therapist on the vineyard
in August. I don't want to run into you at
the Alvin Aley Gala. I don't want the jack and
jail like, oh, you go to my friends and I
don't like it, and I'm just like, black women have
enough problem. What does white woman hear about my problems?
We got enough problems on our own. And I don't
hold anything back. I tell her about whiteness and how
irritated I am and what's happening. And a lot of

(20:15):
my friends go to her as well, so she'll bring
it up and say, you know, this is also probably
hard for you as a black woman, and yeah, but
I do so a little guilty that I don't go
see a black woman. But I wanted some familiarity as
a woman, but I wanted some disconnect from my world.

Speaker 1 (20:31):
That makes a lot of sense, and I think that
that's important. I really appreciate you sharing that, because I
do think you know enough about yourself to know this
won't feel comfortable for me if I then run into
her at a gala, right, and so I feel like
I need a little bit of separation. And so I
that is perfectly fine for you to pick the place
where you feel like you will be most psychologically safe.

Speaker 3 (20:51):
Yeah, that's what I mean, Doctor Joey.

Speaker 2 (20:53):
If you were my therapist, I would be embarrassed running
into you at the conference there, you know, or if
I'm going out with somebody, you know, it's like, oh,
she's dating him, I know, and I'm like, oh, you know, yeah,
my men's all of it, I know.

Speaker 3 (21:04):
And I think that's very real.

Speaker 1 (21:06):
Like I think you talked about this on a previous
episode with my friends and colleagues, doctor Abrams and doctor
beck with that sometimes black women say they want a
black women therapist, but then it is hard, not necessarily
for the running into you in public peace. But there
is something I think about, like how we are socialized
about falling apart in front of somebody else who seems
like they have it all together right, and so that

(21:27):
makes it difficult for you to do your work sometimes.
And so you know, if you have found a great
therapist who's not a black woman, I think that that's great,
and I do think other people are okay to consider that, right, Like,
you have to think about what will make you feel
most safe to share, and sometimes that means a package
that does not look like you.

Speaker 3 (21:44):
I mean, we're getting there.

Speaker 2 (21:45):
I've been going to her for years, and she told
me the other day, she says, she doesn't feel like
we've gotten on a deep layer. And the same way
I'm talking to you. I'm very open, doctor Joy. I mean,
I share everything. And so I asked her, I'm like,
I don't understand, like how much deeper I can go?
Like what is it that you want to know from
me that I'm not sharing? And she said, you'll fill
up space with a lot of elegant words, and you'll

(22:08):
intellectualize something and tell me what's happening and tell me
how you feel, but you're not really talking about yourself,
and I feel like I do that on across generations
as well, Like I'm saying, this is what happened to me,
this is how I felt.

Speaker 3 (22:23):
How do you guys feel? You know? And it's like
that is as open and vulnerable as I know how
to be.

Speaker 2 (22:28):
But through this podcast, through this work, through my own
journey home to self, I'm working on taking away those
bricks and really breaking down. But it is a journey,
like I still don't quite know what she means, but
it is quite a journey. So I truly I was
really looking forward. I knew this date that we were recording,
I had on my calendar and I was like, doctor Joy,

(22:49):
don't know, but it's about to be therapy.

Speaker 3 (22:51):
I had so much I want to talk about with
doctor Joy.

Speaker 1 (22:54):
I love that. I love that, And that is not
an uncommon refrain, I think to hear about black waves
in therapy because of so much of like how we've
been socialized and like having to show up and do
twice as good to get have as much like we
are really good and skilled sometimes at talking about our
feelings but not feeling our feelings, which it sounds like
the therapist is talking with you about.

Speaker 2 (23:15):
Yes, that literally were her words, like, you talk about
your feels, but you haven't allowed yourself to feel your feelings.

Speaker 3 (23:21):
And it's like, I don't know what else I can do.

Speaker 2 (23:24):
And so what I have done is I've stopped hanging
out as much. If I'm feeling down, I don't immediately
call somebody and say, hey, do you want to grab
cocto go for a walk or whatever.

Speaker 3 (23:35):
I just try to sit in my feelings.

Speaker 2 (23:36):
But then another part of me is like, why am
I making myself suffer through this? I would feel better
if I would just go see somebody and hang out.
So I'm trying to strike the balance there. And then
also when it comes to like talking about my feelings,
trying to.

Speaker 3 (23:51):
Be more honest with myself.

Speaker 2 (23:53):
And so when you ask about even how I get
in the podcast space, I do enjoy this work. I
feel so blessed and privileged to do it. I'm also
honestly still grieving the loss of my show. And it
was a great piece in Vanity Fair by Brooke Baldwin,
who I enjoyed the piece because she was an anchor
at CNN, and she said, look, I was a privileged
white woman and I tried to use my platform, which

(24:13):
I believe she did, like she used her platform in
a beautiful way, and she said it was three years
later and she was still grieving the loss of her show,
and I thought, yes, I definitely still feel that way.
And at the center of this is committing the cardinal
sin of making white folks uncomfortable, and so in these

(24:35):
other spaces, it's like, yes, I have freedom to be,
but as you well know, it costs money to do podcasts,
Like advertisers have to feel comfortable with you. It doesn't
seem like there's any escape of censuring white people's comfort,
and it's just an example of whiteness can literally make
me sick, because that's the stress I carry with me
every day. And it's either I'm going to be filtered

(24:58):
and invite people to be comfortab me, or I'm going
to be unfiltered and always have a place for my
community within me and they will always have a place
for me in the community. I've always chosen the latter,
Like there is nothing that can make me not speak
a truth or not speak in a way where people
don't see themselves reflected, Like my goal was never to
host the Today's Show, My goal was for everybody listening,

(25:22):
for you to see yourself on television, not just how
you look, but how you talked, how you dressed, how
you spoke, how you got down whatever, like you could
see me, or you could see one of my guests,
including doctor Joy somebody like that. And so these are
all the things that I'm like struggling with and working
my way through.

Speaker 3 (25:42):
And I am doing that on.

Speaker 2 (25:44):
Some level on the podcast, across generations, but also just
in my own private time, trying to unpack all these
forty five years of life that have gotten me right here.

Speaker 1 (25:58):
More from our conversation to the break, but first a
quick snippet of what's coming up next week on TBG.
So the theme of the evening is healing in real time.
So I would love to hear We'll start with you,
doctor Beck with what does that mean when you hear
that phrase? What comes to mind for you? Healing in
real time?

Speaker 4 (26:18):
It's now, it's real, it's authenticity, and it is community.
It is community, it is what is present in this moment.
So of course we talk about a sisterhood and healing
the power of sisterhood to heal, but it's right now,
it's not waiting till tomorrow. There's authenticity, there's some self
awareness there in terms.

Speaker 1 (26:38):
Of what is it that you're going through, what is
it that.

Speaker 4 (26:40):
You're dealing with, And it's bringing that thing to the
forefront right now, facing it and getting through it.

Speaker 1 (27:01):
So I want to hold space for the grief that
you are talking about still experiencing. And I feel like
we've alluded to the MSNBC show, but I definitely want
to give you an opportunity to share. I know you've
done some extensively on Native Land Pod for sure, to
kind of share what happened because you did so beautifully
hold space for so many of us to show up

(27:22):
as ourselves and like have our first opportunity to do
live TV, and like, I think you very intentionally built
this space where we could come get relevant, credible information
but also from people who looked and sounded like us.
So I want you to note that you did do that,
and I think a lot of us are aggrieving with
you that you were unceremoniously pulled from that show at

(27:44):
a time when it really felt like we needed a
voice like yours. So if you would share what happened
there and how are you making sense? Of what has
now become your pivot into these different spaces.

Speaker 2 (27:55):
Yeah, thank you for that. Well, what happened with my show?
No one ever gave me a reason why my show
was being canceled. What was happening in the weeks leading
up to them canceling my show? Tucker Carlson started making
me a character on his show and said I was
trying to start a race war and basically started playing
all these clips. Anytime I said anything white, he would,

(28:16):
you know, play it. He compared what I was saying
to what happened in Rwanda, because you know, Tucker Carlson
so so thoughtful and cares so much about the people
in Rwanda.

Speaker 3 (28:25):
That was what he uses his example of me trying
to start a race war. And I did not respond.

Speaker 2 (28:31):
But after that I was flooded with all kind of
hateful comments and rhetoric, just awful things from his followers.
At that point, the network said nothing to me, nothing
about it. They didn't put out any statement, they didn't
come talk to me. The only thing I heard was
a directive that I was not to respond to Tucker Carlson.

(28:54):
I couldn't play a clip of him on my show.
I couldn't reference his name on my show as though
he were the aggrieved party. What was happening before that,
making Kelly would say things about me, and I would
respond in my way. I wasn't making them the center
of the show, but we have a way of responding,
so I'd respond to her bill O'Reilly. Like all the

(29:15):
conservative right wing zealots were making these comments. And in
addition to being under attack, I was true to my mission,
and my mission in life was to live in service
to black folks. It didn't matter where I was doing
this or what that looked like, as long as I
was feeding that mission. And in doing that, I wanted

(29:37):
to create liberty and equality for all people of color,
including white folks. I think when everybody wins, white folks
win too. And so my show was not a black show.
It was just a show that centered the voices and
perspectives of people of color. So if we were going
to talk about Ukraine, find me the people of color
talking about Ukraine. If we were going to talk about

(29:58):
a foreign policy issue, guess what, it's a whole lot.
I will search the corners of the Internet and find
people of color who can talk about this. And so
We centered voices from the API community, the Latino community,
Indigenous community, and of course the Black community. And the
goal was I wanted my colleagues to steal my guests.
I wanted to see them on other platforms. But every

(30:18):
week with the higher ups at the network, it was
a fight about what.

Speaker 3 (30:23):
I wanted to talk about.

Speaker 2 (30:24):
The cable news industry is obsessed with talking about Donald
Trump all the time, and yes, he's an existential threat
to the country, and yes, I get that's a big deal,
but again, we are multi layered and we ought to
be able to be our full selves and talk about
more than just this unhinged person. Or they wanted me
to cover some minutia that happened on Capitol Hill that
had been talked about at nauseum all week. They wanted

(30:46):
me to pull from the five or six stories of
the echo Chamber, and I was disrupting that. And it
was really odd to me why they were so focused
on my show, because we were averaging four point six
million viewers a month. We were the highest show across
all the weekend consistently. We were getting more ratings than
Joe Scarborough. So why are you so concerned about what

(31:07):
I'm doing over here because it looks like these other
shows can use your attention. And it was just debilitating.
And I think sometimes, you know, you start doing this
fight so long and it's like, after, wow, you got
a question?

Speaker 3 (31:18):
Am I crazy?

Speaker 2 (31:19):
Am I the crazy person? Because it seems to me
what I'm doing is working. We don't have a ratings problem.
I used to walk through pregentrified neighborhoods. Dudes on the
block were like, yo, Tiffany, cross the streets are with you,
we support you, we love what you're doing. And that
didn't matter to the network. They still centered white audiences.
Even it's like, okay, so you bring in four points

(31:41):
six million people, but not enough middle of the town
white people. And I remember they talked to me one
time and they said, you need to think about folks
in those flyover states.

Speaker 3 (31:52):
Or it was always somebody's parents.

Speaker 2 (31:53):
Well, my mom lives in Iowa and she's not bad
or my mom, and it's like, okay, nobody talking about
your mama. I'm talking about how what we face every day.
And so when they said that focusing on the flyover states,
I ended up doing a whole essay about focusing over
flyover states, and I'm like, yes, guys, we're talking to
people in Cleveland and Wisconsin and Detroit because guess what

(32:14):
those are flyover states too. And I dared them to
say something about it, because what they weren't saying is
white people. So I was like, what are the blackest
cities and all these flyover states that they're talking about.

Speaker 3 (32:25):
Those folks matter too.

Speaker 2 (32:26):
They matter as voters, they matter as none voters, they
matter as people, they matter as viewers. They matter because
we all exist here, is sharing this space here, and
so it was definitely getting tense around there. I felt
like the troublemaker. I felt unwelcome. I had consistently felt
unwelcoming newsrooms, and so I got a call one day
out the blue, two days before my show was supposed

(32:48):
to air.

Speaker 3 (32:49):
It was one week before midterms.

Speaker 2 (32:51):
We had an exclusive interviews slated with Stacy Abrams, who
was running for governor, who asked to come on my
show specifically, and it was the president of the network.
Also a blacklack woman, a black face, not a black voice,
but she went to Hampton, you know, but still was
there to do a very different thing than I was.
And I try to consider her with grace as well,

(33:11):
because Andrew gave me because he's like, you can't expect
the hyaena to act like a lion, and she knew
how to be a hyena. She didn't know how to
be a lion with her power and decided to cancel
my show, and it was devastating, not just for me,
but to all the communities. That is probably the most
heartbreaking of it all. When people still come up to
me and they're like, there's no place else that picked

(33:32):
up that mantle to talk about indigenous issues. There's no
one else that centers API voices in the same way.
There are people who try, but it's like, we will
do it in the softest way to make audiences comfortable.
And that's why you need someone like me to make
an example of, Like let me grab your head, Negress
and put her head on a spike, so everybody else
around here know how to act. And so I just

(33:55):
feel like, if they can't cancel us all, if we
all tell an unapologetic truth. What I found out later,
doctor Joe, I'll tell you is there were other networks.
I won't say, but there was a black own network
that was interested in doing a licensing agreement with MSNBC,
and that went away when my show went away, because
they said, well, the only content we wanted to license

(34:16):
was your show, so they were willing to lose money
over my show. There were people from different outlets who said, hey,
we reached out to them, we wanted to profile you,
we loved your fashion on the show, or we loved
your personality, wanted to do a profile, and the NBCPR
department would redirect them to someone else who they felt
was more appropriate. None of those requests ever found their
way to me. So the entire time I was there,

(34:37):
it was oppression. It was a meant to oppress. I
tell the fuller story on Native Land. You're familiar with it,
but yeah, it was just exhausting to deal with.

Speaker 3 (34:46):
My sister.

Speaker 2 (34:47):
Joy Reid is still there holding it down, and that's
the goal. Become unfuckiable, you know, like, become so big
they can't mess with you. And so I'm rooting for
Joy to keep getting bigger and bigger. He's literally the
only voice, and Joy and I did very different things,
but she's the only voice, so really the only reason
I had that show. She was very helpful to me,

(35:07):
but also the only voice who still is purely, unapologetically
a black woman's voice talking about all the things.

Speaker 3 (35:15):
So yeah, I'm very much still in grief.

Speaker 2 (35:17):
And you can imagine when I sit from advertisers today,
sit across from them, and they're saying, well, we're a
conservative company and we're a little concerned about getting in
bed with someone who has a political perspective. And I
mean a part of me is grief is still like goddamn, like,
how long in my four and a half decades of
life am I gonna have to center what makes white

(35:38):
folks comfortable? Like when does that end? When does it change?
And I ain't been able to answer that question yet.
So that's part of the grief. But I'm also I
just want to counter this. When I do feield this grief,
I am intentional about reminding myself of the abundance that
I have in life. I still get to express my
perspective and points of view in a political space and

(36:01):
a personal space, and there are still people who believe
in me and who show up and show me love.
And I don't ever want to take that for granted.
And I just have allowed myself to feel both these
things enormous gratitude for where I am in life and
what I still hold, and painful grief for what I've
been through as a little girl, as a grown woman,

(36:24):
for a little girl inside me who's always felt like
I would get rejected from this space consistently, because that's
what consistently happened. So, yes, both of those feelings are
very dominant inside me, doctor Joy, and that's why I
came to see you today, hopefully that you can just
give me all the joy.

Speaker 1 (36:43):
That we can just wrap it all up in the
next book.

Speaker 2 (36:45):
Yes, by the time this is over, I want to
be feeling eternal joy, just like elation, please and thank you.

Speaker 1 (36:54):
If I could give you that, I absolutely would. But
it also feels like you are doing quite a bit
of work to grapple with this yourself, right, and like
trying to figure out what it means for you, and
like how do you hold space for both the grief
and the gratitude because they can coexist, right, they exist
sept the same.

Speaker 2 (37:09):
Yeah, I mean I'm trying, you know, I go to therapy.
I'm not going as consistently. When my show got canceled,
I had to readjust all my finances and so that
was a part of it, and.

Speaker 3 (37:20):
Not going to therapy every week because it is a luxury.

Speaker 2 (37:23):
And I think every time we talk about therapy, we
don't think about the people who are living below the
poverty line and the wealth gap in this country.

Speaker 3 (37:29):
Not everyone has access to therapy. And so my heart
was with the people who are like.

Speaker 2 (37:33):
Yeah, I want to be better, but I got to
choose between my rent, my kids field trip, and therapy.

Speaker 3 (37:39):
So I see you ladies out there who have that
choice to make.

Speaker 2 (37:43):
I will say, this is the biggest thing that's come
out of therapy, and it's reconnecting with my childhood person.
Because I was so busy, when I say joy, I
worked my ass off, Okay, like for twenty plus years.
I was so dedicated to my craft as a journalist,
to storytelling and to living in service to black folks

(38:04):
that I never gave myself permission to be tired. Like
an eighteen hour day was the norm, That's just what
it was. And when life slowed down, all this pain
that I had been holding, all this pain I didn't
even know it was there was unearthed. It was unearthed,
and other people saw it. A woman, she's a shaman,

(38:24):
she's a blessing. She is just my spiritual protector, Latasha Brown.
To know Latasha is to love Latasha. I don't know
what it is about her, but she is an earth
angel like even her raspy voice, and she'll break out
in the song with you like everything. After my show
was canceled, she was over my house, which is also

(38:45):
a blessing because you can't never get Latasha to yourself.
So I got her to myself and she said, Tiffany,
there's something in you, like we know, like you're in pain,
you are mad, or first that you have all these
things that you haven't dealt with in life. Because I
would talk to Latasha about everything and I would always
wrap it up with, yeah, I'm gonna fix it, I'm
gonna figure it out whatever. And she said, it's like

(39:08):
it's a bowl of shit and you've put flowers on it.
You've put little like Doilei's with perfume, and you keep
powering on this bowl, all these flowers, all these doilies,
all this perfume, but shit stinks like shit is still there,
and you have to get rid of all these flowers.
You got to get all these doil, get rid of
all that perfume and deal with this shit.

Speaker 3 (39:30):
In the bowl.

Speaker 2 (39:31):
Otherwise it's always going to stink, It's always going to
be there, something about her putting it to me that way.
Ever since then, I have been working on Okay, let's
get rid of this, let's get rid of that, and
connecting with why do I feel this pain? Why did
I make these choices? How do I undo it? How

(39:52):
can I go on this journey and invite others to
come along with me?

Speaker 3 (39:57):
If I know you, if I don't know you, people
would say, well, you gotta dose work to do the work?
Do you want a relationship? God? Do the work? Want
to be happy?

Speaker 4 (40:03):
God?

Speaker 3 (40:03):
Do the work? And I'm like, what does the work
look like? Do I have to read some books? I
could do that? Do I take notes? Do I have
to learn a new language?

Speaker 4 (40:09):
Like?

Speaker 3 (40:09):
What is this work?

Speaker 2 (40:11):
Give me a specific example of when I wake up
in the morning, what does that work look like? And
I think the work is different for everyone, and so
for me to feel my feelings, I don't.

Speaker 3 (40:22):
Even know how to do that. I think I'm feeling
my feelings. I don't know. I'm trying to, but I know.

Speaker 2 (40:28):
Even just taking this step has been frightening and painful
and just God awful, but I see light at the
end of this tunnel. I see something different on the
other side of it. And so where I am in life,
I'm still in the thick of this shit, still in
the think of it, and I know there are people

(40:49):
going through this too. They may not be honest with me,
and worse yet, they may not be honest with themselves.
But there are people in my life and it's like, hey,
I know you're going through this shit too, and if
you're not going to be honest about it, that's okay.
But I know for me, I can't pretend another second.
I want to be as honest as possible and share
this with people so they can figure their own shit

(41:11):
out too, because we're all trying to figure it out.
I think we all want to experience doctor joy, but
we all also want to experience our own personal joy,
And right now I have pockets of joy. Like I'm
feel happy right now talking to you in this space.
I feel very happy when this is over and I'm
sitting on my sofa and maybe I'm rereading our Tavia
Butler Parable of the Sour so good. But when I'm

(41:34):
reading and then I'm done reading, and I'm just sitting
here and it's quiet, and I'm in the quiet of
my thoughts and the quiet corners of my mind. Those
are the moments where maybe I am sad, maybe I
do have this memory, or maybe I'm missing something. I
just stop dating someone, you know, like, so maybe that
sadness comes over. And so trying to feel my feelings
and the best way I can. But it's a journey,
doctor Joy, Really is it?

Speaker 3 (41:55):
Really? Truly? Is you better? Hope I don't get your
cell phone and I brought this podcast.

Speaker 1 (42:00):
No, you're here honestly like you're doing it right. And
I think again, when you are such like a high
achieving person, even healing becomes this thing that you want
to get right right like this, oh I get to
do I get a gold star and healing, but you
are doing it. You are letting yourself feel whatever comes up,
whether that's happiness or grief, or joy or sadness. Like
you are allowing yourself to feel all of those things.

Speaker 2 (42:22):
But when does it become more happiness and joy and
less sadness.

Speaker 1 (42:26):
Well, I think it depends, and I think you have
to put things in context.

Speaker 4 (42:30):
Right.

Speaker 1 (42:30):
You had your show canceled. We were in a pandemic,
like there are all these other things that like impact
how we are going to be feeling, and you have
this you know, it sounds like very difficult childhood experience, right,
and so all of those things are culminating, and you've
never really allowed yourself to feel any of it. So
you cannot expect that a couple of months of therapy

(42:51):
will be like, Okay, well we're good, Now I got
more days of happiness. I think it is really just
about making sure that you're giving yourself grace with all
of it.

Speaker 3 (42:59):
Great, that is the thing that you know what.

Speaker 2 (43:02):
I'm so happy you said that because that is where
I'm trying to start give myself grace because there are
situations that I didn't handle well because as Latasha told me,
it says bull as shit, and so I'm trying to
give myself grace for all the situations. The guy I
just stopped dating. I give myself grace because I handle

(43:23):
things with the emotional tools available to me at that
time and conversations with my mother. I handled it the
best I could at that time, and that's just what
it is. But I didn't realize I was carrying around
so much shame. So many feelings of unworthiness, So many
thoughts of these things happen to you because you deserve

(43:46):
them to happen to you. The inability to really love
another person, because you can only love another person to
the extent that you love yourself.

Speaker 3 (43:53):
And if you ask me, Tiffany, do you love yourself? Hell? Yeah,
I do.

Speaker 2 (43:58):
Like I think I'm the bomb. Yeah, I love myself.
But here is the kicker. Does your behavior bear that out?
And so that's what I try to kick back to
younger women. You say you love yourself, but this little
boy you're dealing with, does that represent loving yourself? This
job that you're staying in, does that represent loving yourself?
How you present yourself to the world every day, does

(44:18):
that represent loving yourself? You being addicted to Instagram and
doom scrolling and looking at social media all the time,
does that represent loving yourself? So all of these things
that happen to us on this journey in the world,
I am picking up what I need to and putting
down what I need to on the journey home back
to myself. And so that is the most honest answer

(44:38):
I can give to anybody out there who's asking what
is the work that has been what the work looks
like for me, and it's a journey. I have not
reached this destination yet, and I know it's not a destination,
that it's a lifelong journey, but I really would like
to soon, very soon, Doctor Joy, get the base camp one,
you know, let.

Speaker 3 (44:57):
Me rest for a minute at some point, let me rest.

Speaker 1 (45:03):
More from our conversation after the break. So I want
to ask you a question that I feel like might
show up on a Cross Generations episode. So for any
younger listeners who are listening to us, any members of
our community are black women who are like news producers

(45:24):
or journalists who may find themselves navigating a similar situation
where they want to tell black stories. They want to
show up authentically, but they may be struggling to feel
like heard and prioritized. Don't like so much of what
you shared. What kinds of things would you say to them?

Speaker 2 (45:39):
Well, I'll say, in general, be excellent at your craft first.
I think yes, among our sister friends and in spaces
like this, we have the whole space for our authentic selves.
I think in the private sector, in the corporate space
and spaces that are professional where you work, that is

(46:00):
a space where you do have to create value and
your personal space, love is free. Love and respect just
ought to be there in your professional space. I think
sometimes younger people conflate the two. It ain't like that
in the professionals that you actually do have to earn
the ability to.

Speaker 3 (46:19):
Flex a little bit.

Speaker 2 (46:20):
So be great at your craft, learn it, know it,
hone it. Hopefully it's something you enjoy. And if it's
not what you enjoy, find what you enjoy so much
that you would do it for free. That's probably the
best advice because I think sometimes people misunderstand my words
and they feel like, well I showed up and I
told my boss blah blah, And it's like, well, you
ain't really earned the right to do that yet. But

(46:41):
also to the flip side of that, I want to
honor young people and the voices that they have. And
you are there for a reason, and so if you
have something to.

Speaker 3 (46:49):
Say, say it. But here are the three questions to
ask yourself. These are not mine.

Speaker 2 (46:52):
Someone gave this advice to me. It's like a well
known Q and A for yourself. But here's a question
to ask yourself. Does this need to be said? Does
this need to be said by me? Does this need
to be said by me right now. Those are three
fair questions that you ought to ask yourself before you're
ready to speak up and take up space and hold

(47:13):
space and be raw rah and live in community and
service black for all those things, because we do want
you to be there, and we want you to have
an income, and we want you to build professionally. But
ask yourself those questions. First, y'all not going to have
Tiffany out here telling y'all like, go in there and
you tell it also like no, no, no, no, no no no,
be responsible with your voice. So I see you, I

(47:35):
hear you, and I know how frustrating things can be.
And be too big for them to ignore. That's the
other thing, because when you're too big for them to ignore,
they come a running.

Speaker 3 (47:45):
For sure they do.

Speaker 1 (47:47):
Yes, yes, So you've already shared some of this, But
what does your support look like outside of therapy? So,
I mean you talked about your girlfriends, your sister's circle,
who I know have been critical for you. What else
does support look like for you?

Speaker 2 (47:59):
You'll have to tell me if there's a support or not.
But I turn off my phone. I treat my phone
almost like a landline. The sound of my phone ringing
irritates me sometimes and it's always every two seconds. So
just getting away from my devices. You know, I grew
up at a time where everybody didn't have a smartphone.

Speaker 3 (48:21):
We would have that long phone.

Speaker 2 (48:23):
Cord that you would stretch all the way. Mom would
pick up the phone. You still on the phone.

Speaker 3 (48:27):
It's ten o'clock, Get off the phone, embarrass you, you know.
And I think there's something to that.

Speaker 2 (48:32):
I think these phones were intended to make it easier
to connect with people, and they've had the opposite effect.
And so yeah, that is a big factor for me.
And then one thing that I do, I think I
run for support, you know. I run to my girlfriend group.
I have two of my closest friends, two more housemen.
We're really close and so.

Speaker 3 (48:52):
We hang out a lot.

Speaker 2 (48:54):
And I've had to learn how to isolate on some level.
And this might not be the answer for everybody, but
for me, it's an escape. I'm not really working through things.
It's an escape, and so I have tried to just
stand still.

Speaker 3 (49:10):
I love walking.

Speaker 2 (49:11):
I walk probably five or six miles a day, So
I walk, I listen to music. Sometimes sometimes I just
have my earbuds in so nobody will talk to me,
and I'm really in silence, reading, just spending time with
myself and learning to really be okay with who I
am in my own company. I've always done that my
whole life, but as I'm working through this bowl of sugar,

(49:32):
honey Ica, that's one thing that I'm learning to do.
But I do just want to shout out my girlfriends
who are I mean, get you a girlfriend group that
supports you, like y'all are blood sisters.

Speaker 3 (49:43):
My friends and I.

Speaker 2 (49:44):
We share salary information, we share job opportunities, we share
dating stories, marriage stories, child rearing stories. There really is
no topic off limits with me. With joy read Sunny
hostin Angela, Rye, Britney Packnick Honeyham, Alicia, Aaron Haynes from
the nineteenth Carrie Champion, Jamel Hill, and Latizah Brown. I

(50:06):
feel like I'm leaving somebody out so they're gonna kill me.
But that's the crew and I'm forever in gratitude to
all those ladies when my show was canceled, like they
just surrounded me and took over my life in many ways.
But yeah, that girlfriend group is crucially important. I also
have a book club who I'm very close with, so
I'm surrounded by women. I will say that, and I

(50:27):
shout out to black men because they're black men in
my life.

Speaker 3 (50:29):
But I'm grateful for my community for sure.

Speaker 1 (50:33):
I want to go back to that story you shared
about Latasha because I feel like there may be people
listening who are wondering, like, oh my gosh, like she
said that to you. Yeah, but I do feel like
that speaks to the level of intimacy and safety in
the friendship that she would be able to say something
that maybe difficult for you to hear. Can you talk
about what kinds of things allowed the relationship between you

(50:54):
and her, but also in your larger friendship circle to
get to a place where you all may be able
to say some things like that to one another.

Speaker 3 (51:01):
Yeah, thank you for that.

Speaker 2 (51:02):
Well, let me just say, if any of you all
are blessed enough to meet Latasha, she might say something
like that to you, Like I really think she is
an oracle and everyone who meets her feels this connection
to her. To me, it just feels like she sees
right through me, like I can't lie and she just
has the ability to pull out what I'm trying to say.
She is the founder of Black Voters Matter, but she's

(51:24):
so much more than that. When Hurricane Katrina happened, nobody
called Latasha to say, hey, we need help. She just
saw it and went into action and was trying to
get black folks out, was transporting water in. She's that
woman in the community who loves everybody's kids and just
leads with love. You cannot tell the story of America
right now without talking about Latasha Brown. She's a community organizer,

(51:46):
but she's also grassroots and grasstops.

Speaker 3 (51:48):
People who are.

Speaker 2 (51:49):
Billionaires call her directly. They don't go through assistance or anything.
They just want to be connected to her, and she
has the same love for them as people who are
out here with no family, and she'll has somebody with
her and she's like, yo, that's my daughter.

Speaker 3 (52:04):
Yeah, I didn't raise her since she was fib I'm like, no,
ain't nobody know that, Like, she's just one of those people.

Speaker 2 (52:09):
So I think in our friendship group she has that
kind of relationship and connection with everybody. But even outside
of our friendship group, she has that with everybody. Your
relationships don't matter if their friendships that are romantic in
nature or just platonic friendship with your girlfriends. I think
your relationships in life mirror back to you who you are,

(52:30):
and sometimes you don't like what they're reflecting back to you.
And I think that for me has been part of
the work too. You know, I had my girlfriends reflecting
back to me who I am, but I was also
dating someone who reflected back to me who I am,
and it.

Speaker 3 (52:48):
Was traumatizing to see some of these things.

Speaker 2 (52:50):
You know, I think that's probably the most intimate relationship
romantic in nature. And they say, if you're ready to
move into partnership, be ready to meet yourself. And I
met myself. And so with all of these relationships, something
about it. There's something like the stars aligned at this
time right now for me to experience incredible loss, rejection, hurt, feelings,

(53:12):
heartbreak in every part of life. And so I have
to trust that this is happening for me to grow
and to blossom. I really truly believe that I think
I am meant to experience everything I am at this
particular time, because I won't be able to fully receive

(53:32):
what's next if I didn't deal with that bull of
shit that Latasha talked about. And one thing she said
to me, there's a dark spirit that aims to devour you.
And what I realize is that dark spirit can jump
from person to person, and it can even jump inside myself.
And so these thoughts that you have about being unworthy

(53:52):
and oh I can't believe I ate that sniggers bar
last night, or I drank two shots of tequila and
that's empty calories, and all the things we think about ourselves.
Tina Lifford does a great thing where she was saying,
you have something like a thousand thoughts a day, and
nine hundred and ninety nine of them are negative, and
so just trying to undo my way of thinking. I

(54:14):
don't think any of those things would have happened without
the circumstances that met me, and without the sisterhood that
God has placed.

Speaker 3 (54:22):
In my life.

Speaker 2 (54:23):
And even with some of the people who didn't meet me,
well like they came along. It's like the old folks say,
we gonna take what the devil meant for evil and
you use for good.

Speaker 3 (54:32):
But I won't call them evil.

Speaker 2 (54:33):
But I will take these circumstances and plant the seed
and let it grow. I'm just blessed. I feel very blessed.
I'm heartbroken in a lot of ways still, But like
I said, I can hold space for being heartbroken and
I can hold space and being blessed that I don't
know any other way to describe this work.

Speaker 3 (54:52):
That's how I feel every day. That's how I feel.

Speaker 2 (54:55):
Some level of heartbreak and some level of abundance and joy.

Speaker 3 (55:00):
And they're equal. Now, well, I would like them to
be asymmetrical.

Speaker 2 (55:03):
I would like it to be abundant joy and then
you know, oh a five minute heartbreak sadness.

Speaker 3 (55:10):
Now it's like equal parts posts.

Speaker 1 (55:12):
Got it? Got it?

Speaker 2 (55:14):
Is it improper for me to ask how you're doing,
doctor Joy?

Speaker 3 (55:17):
I mean, I feel like my therapist, like you can't ask,
but how are you doing?

Speaker 1 (55:21):
I'm not, so you can definitely.

Speaker 2 (55:23):
Okay, how are you doing personally and professionally?

Speaker 1 (55:28):
So I feel like I am doing better now. I
definitely feel like I am just now on the upswing.
After a book promo, I feel like I talked to
so many authors who like tried to warn me about
the toll that releasing a book takes on you. Yeah,
and even though I felt like I prepared as much
as I could, Like, I don't think in theory you
can't know right until you do it. But I definitely

(55:49):
was burned out and as excited as I am about
the topic and about the book and about how many
people love the book, it definitely like just took a
toll on me to like just be on all the time,
different cities and like all the things. So I definitely
feel like I'm on the upswing now and feeling much better.

Speaker 3 (56:06):
Good good.

Speaker 2 (56:07):
I love to hear that. This is another thing, like
you radiate joy, like your name. You seem very centered
and calm. But even when we were on stage together
last year and when you do my show, I don't know,
you just always seem like a joyful person. But I
think we project that on each other sometimes as black
women too, And it's like we have to be better
at recognizing when, yes, this person is projecting joy, but

(56:28):
my sister might be feeling pain right now, so let
me tap into that, let me pull her aside, let
me let her hold space with me for.

Speaker 3 (56:34):
Whatever it is.

Speaker 2 (56:34):
And sometimes it's like no, girl, I'm good, I'm joyful,
and it's like, well tears to that. But then every
now and then it's like, yeah, I'm having a hard time,
and no problem is too small or too big to
talk about. Even for the black women. It's like I
don't know you, but I know y'all. Everybody listening right now,
I don't know y'all, but I know y'all and y'all
know me. So I just love that sisterhood that we
have and I'm happy that you are still radiating joy well,

(56:57):
thank you for that you have shared so beautif please
with us, Tiffany definitely, which I could talk to you
all afternoon, but I do not want to take up
all of your time.

Speaker 1 (57:06):
So let us know where we can stay connected with
you and what can we be on the lookout for
with future episodes of Across Generations.

Speaker 3 (57:13):
Oh, I'm so excited.

Speaker 2 (57:14):
Well one, I'm begging everybody please download, listen to tweet
about post share dropping your group chat Across Generations. I
would love for you all to rate and review the
podcast on Apple Podcasts. It is really like my heart's
work and we have these types of conversations every week.
You can follow us at a Cross Gen podcast on
Instagram and you can find us on YouTube. We are

(57:37):
an iHeart podcast, but we're available anywhere you get your podcasts.

Speaker 3 (57:40):
You can follow me at Tiffany d Cross on all.

Speaker 2 (57:42):
Platforms, on x, Twitter, whatever it's called, Instagram, Facebook, all
of it.

Speaker 3 (57:48):
I'm all over social media.

Speaker 2 (57:50):
And one episode that we have coming out, so we
talked about motherhood, We talked about faith, people who don't
go to church as much anymore, and you know, black
folks had a whole lot to say about that. That
was one of our very engaging and popular episodes. An
episode that's coming out that I'm excited about is sex workers,
and we have an elder sex worker and a younger

(58:11):
sex worker.

Speaker 3 (58:11):
When you think about it, the elder she walked.

Speaker 2 (58:15):
Corners, she did porn like money on the nightstand, and
the younger is more of an Only Fans star. We
have Miss be Nasty joining us who makes like grands
every month. I think she makes maybe forty fifty thousand
dollars a month on OnlyFans. And my intention in having
this conversation was to one humanize them and to understand

(58:39):
how as a woman you landed here, and two to
talk about the path of sex work and what it
might mean to not only decriminalize but destigmatize sex work
as well, and basically who they are as people and
the racism that they talked about white women get paid
more money to have sex with black men in the

(59:03):
porn industry, which blows my mind, like wow, and there
is no equivalent for black women.

Speaker 3 (59:09):
And so I just found.

Speaker 2 (59:10):
It very informative and I wasn't there to judge it
or promote it. It was just truly out of curiosity.
Who are you as women? And sex work, as we
know as Black women, has been a part of our
lives since the plantation and how we were even after enslavement,
relegated to some of the most dangerous sex work.

Speaker 3 (59:32):
And so anyway, we unpack and get into a lot
of that.

Speaker 2 (59:34):
Both women were abused and we get into that, but
then on the lighter side too. We are doing an
episode on the State of R and B and we
have the lead singer from Brownstone and we have a
young singer. We're doing an episode same state of hip Hop.
I'm hoping we'll have rock sane Chante, so stay tuned
and a young hip hop artist. We talk about domestic violence,
like a woman who went to prison, and it's like

(59:56):
what resources were available to her in the eighties versus
a woman and what resources are available for now. We
really get into everything that you talk about. This is
with older black women and younger Black women and me.
We get into a lot. This is my labor. I love,
Doctor Joy.

Speaker 3 (01:00:11):
Really is it? Truly is?

Speaker 2 (01:00:12):
I hope people will tune in like I do everything
I built it for us.

Speaker 1 (01:00:17):
Indeed, well those sound fascinating, so I definitely hope that
people will tune in. We will be sure to include
all of that in the show notes. Thank you so
much for spending some time with me today, Tiffany.

Speaker 2 (01:00:26):
Thank you, Doctor Joy. It's been a pleasure and a delight.
I really appreciate you having me.

Speaker 1 (01:00:31):
Thank you. I'm so glad Tiffany was able to join
me for this conversation. To learn more about her and
her work, be sure to visit the show notes at
Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash Session three sixty one,
and don't forget to text this episode to two of
your girls right now. If you're looking for a therapist

(01:00:51):
in your area, visit our therapist directory at Therapy for
Blackgirls dot com slash directory. And if you want to
continue digging into this topic, just be in community with
other sisters. Come on over and join us in the
sister circle. It's our cozy corner of the Internet designed
just for black women. You can join us at Community
dot Therapy for blackgirls dot com. This episode was produced

(01:01:14):
by Alice Ellis and Zaria Taylor. Editing was done by
Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much for joining me again
this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation with
you all real soon.

Speaker 3 (01:01:27):
Take care, what's

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Dr. Joy Harden Bradford

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Session 361: Up Close with Tiffany Cross