December 11, 2024 • 44 mins
As we continue to explore the experiences of Black women from several religious backgrounds, this week I’m in dialogue with Dr. Pamela Ayo Yetunde, who shares her journey of becoming a practicing Buddhist. Dr. Yetunde is a pastoral counselor and the author of several books, including "Casting Indra's Net" and the forthcoming "Dearly Beloved: Prince, Spirituality, and This Thing Called Life."
During our conversation today, we explore some of the basic principles of Buddhism, how Buddhism as a philosophy can inform our practice of other religions, and the significance of mindfulness activities such as yoga and meditation within Buddhism.
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The Therapy for Black Girls Podcast is a weekly conversation with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed Psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, about all things mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:57):
for joining me for session three eighty nine of the
Therapy for Black Girl's podcast. We'll get right into our
conversation afterword from our sponsors.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Hi, I'm doctor Pamela Iyoya Tonday, and I'm on the
Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. I'm in session today unpacking
being a Black woman Buddhist.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
As we continue to explore the experiences of black women
from several religious backgrounds. This week, I'm in conversation with
doctor Pamela Ioya tune Day, who shares her journey of
becoming a practicing Buddhist doctor. Yetunda is a pastoral counselor
and the author of several books, including Casting Indra's Net
and The Forthcoming Dearly Beloved Prince Spirituality in This Thing
(01:47):
Called Life. Io is also the co editor of the
Nautilus's Book award winning anthology Black and Buddhist What Buddhism
Can teach Us about Race, Resilience, transformation and Freedom. Our
conversation we explored some of the basic principles of Buddhism,
how Buddhism as a philosophy can inform our practice of
(02:07):
other religions, and the significance of mindfulness activities such as
yoga and meditation within Buddhism. If something resonates with you
while enjoying our conversation, please share with us on social
media using the hashtag TVG in Session or join us
over in the Sister Circle To talk more about the episode.
You can join us at Community dot Therapy from Blackgirls
(02:30):
dot com. Here's our conversation, Aiyo, thank you so much
for joining us today.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Thank you for the invitation.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Yeah, I'm excited to chat with you, So I wonder
if you could get us started by telling us a
little bit about your journey of discovering Buddhism. How long
have you been practicing and what are some of the
most interesting things that you've learned.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Yeah, well, I'll say that I grew up in the
United Methodist Church. I was introduced to Buddhist thought about
a month after or the bombing of the World Trade
Center because I had asked my friends to give me
peace of mind for my fortieth birthday and a friend
gave me a copy of a book by Tick mat
Hank called Touching Peace, and that was my introduction And
(03:14):
one of the things that I've learned from Buddhism. And
there are many things I would say. One of the
things is about self compassion, being gentle with oneself. Now
I said one thing, but all of these things are related.
I am basically good and if I can remember that,
(03:34):
that will inform my decisions from that point forward.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
Oh I love that. So there are so many places
I feel like we're going to go with this conversation.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
IYO.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
But I'm curious. So you've got this book as a
part of you know, you asking for this peace of
mind following this, of course, very traumatic event, and did
you immediately know Okay, this is what I'm going to
start practicing. What was the journey like after you got
that book.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Well, I wanted peace of mind so bad I was
desperate for it that I was willing to try just
about anything that I thought would be healthy. So the
short meditation exercise at the beginning of the book goes
something like this, breathing in, I know that I am
breathing in, breathing out. I know that I am breathing out,
(04:20):
in out, breathing in. I see myself as a flower
breathing out. I feel fresh, flower fresh. And then it
goes round like that, imagining oneself as a mountain, imagining
oneself as a stream. And after that short exercise, I
felt settled, and I was settling, and so one thing
(04:43):
led to another. Also, right around the same time, I
began volunteering with Zen Hospice Project, because for years I
had wanted to be a hospice volunteer. So it was
a very powerful combination of reading about Buddhism, practicing guided
meditations and visualizations, and being in service to dying people.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
So for people who may not be familiar, can you
talk with us about some of the guiding principles of Buddhism.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
One of the guiding principles is compassion. If you hear
anything about Buddhism, no matter where the Buddhism comes from,
no matter what the country is or the particular strand
or lineage or school of Buddhism, compassion is going to
be at the center and the heart of that school
of thought. So compassion, loving kindness, equanimity or balance, sympathetic joy,
(05:39):
in other words, rejoicing in the joy and successes of
other people. These are core principles that you'll find throughout Buddhism,
as well as practicing mindfulness and meditation and chanting. Life
is hard. Life is really hard. And in order to
make it in this life, and to make it in
(06:00):
such a way that you're actually contributing in a beneficial way,
you need to be disciplined, right. You need to discipline
your mind, your body, your thoughts, your behaviors, the words
that come out of your mouth, and in doing these things.
The great thing about doing these things is that when
you do them, and do them well and do them frequently, generally,
(06:22):
you don't get a lot of negativity coming back your way,
because people have nothing to negatively react to, generally speaking.
And so I think that people can find the benefit
of practicing Buddhism pretty quickly. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
So, I mean some of the things that you've mentioned,
I feel like have taken on a kind of life
of their own, even outside of people who are practicing Buddhism.
So we hear a lot of like terms in just
general culture that I wonder if you could explain to
us a little bit more. So we've already talked a
little bit about meditation, but can you say more about
what meditation is?
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Yes, So, meditation is turning one's attention to object over
and over again. The purpose of doing that is to
learn how to concentrate. In the world that we're living
in now, our attention is being scattered all over the place,
can hardly focus, and so there is a benefit to
(07:18):
being able to focus on something, and meditation helps us
be better at focusing on something. When we focus on something,
then we can be more intimate with that, we can
be more at peace. And that is the purpose of meditation.
And there are countless ways to meditate.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Got it? What about the lotus flower?
Speaker 2 (07:40):
The lotus flower in the mud represents one that life
is full of messiness and beauty. You know, the messiness
being the mud, The flower being the beauty. It also
represents that beauty comes from the mud. So when one
things you know, I mess or I'm nasty, or I'm ugly,
(08:02):
or I'm unworthy and all that. In Buddhism, they would
be taught, okay, great, use all that belief about your unworthiness, nastiness,
what have you, and use it as medicine to grow
the lotus. Because the lotus grows in the mud. The
seeds of beauty are in what you think is ugly,
(08:24):
so nurture that. And also the lotus and the mud
represent nonduality. You can't separate one from the other, so
try not to separate that internally or externally. Try to
cultivate a mind that accepts all and understand how they
enter are. In other words, compost right is the garbage
(08:48):
that gives life to the beauty?
Speaker 1 (08:52):
Got it? Got it? What about the dormal wheel?
Speaker 2 (08:55):
The dharma wheel represents the noble eightfold path. So it
is said in Buddhism in many schools and lineages of Buddhism,
that healing comes from the four noble truths, the first
truth being there is suffering, the second truth being there
(09:16):
are causes for suffering, The third noble truth is suffering
can be eliminated or it can be diminished or mitigated
or healed. And then the will represents the eight spokes
of the noble eightfold path that one could visit. Some
(09:36):
of the things on the noble eightfold path include how
you look at life all phenomena and that would be
considered right view. How you pay attention, that's right mindfulness,
right concentration, how you meditate, right action. What are your
behaviors that contribute to beneficial outcomes? Right livelihood. There is
(10:02):
an impact on everything we do, and if you're making
money in a way that hurts people, then there's a
very strong likelihood that you're going to create negative karma,
not only for yourself but for others. So that's what
the will represents. And the suggestion is it has to
be turned in a certain way that you have to
(10:22):
start at one point and then go around the will
in clockwise fashion. You can enter this will at any point.
You may say, oh, right speech for me. For me,
I grew up hearing that it's just best to just
get off your chest say whatever you want to say
to people, regardless of the impact. Through Buddhism, I've learned
(10:43):
that actually I would prefer to give some thought, be
mindful about my thoughts about what I'm about to say,
so that I say it in a way that it's
not harmful and produces good and that's called right speech.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
And can you say a little bit more about karma
as you understand it from Buddhist teachings.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Yes, So karma is meant in many ways. One of
the ways it's meant is that if you do something,
or even if you think something, there's going to be
an impact, and something is going to impact you as
a result of the things that you say, think and do.
But karma also has a cosmic quality to it as well.
(11:25):
That is beyond our understanding that there are things that happen,
there are causes and conditions for all phenomena, and sometimes
we don't know why something has landed on us. It
could be karma from past generations or in the cosmos,
but basically cause and effect, that's what karma is. Generally speaking.
(11:47):
Typically we don't practice Buddhism and understand karma as we
do in order to get something back right, it's not
in exchange. It's more for the joy of living a
blameless life. So you don't have to go to bed
word about oh are they gonna come back and get
(12:07):
me because I did XYZ. But it's more from a
heart of generosity that we practice the way we do
with the philosophies around karma and the understanding of karma.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Got it okay? Can you say something about the Buddha?
So we I think sometimes see statues, we see the
Buddha depicted as a part of Buddhist teachings. Can you
talk to us about what that means?
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Right? There are Buddhist statues in our culture, and for
some people they revere the Buddha as a deity, as
a god like figure. For some people, the Buddha is
a historical figure. In either case, historical or cosmic, the
Buddha represents one's capacity for awakening. And if you travel
(12:57):
outside the United States, actually don't have to travel outside
the United States to see massive statues of Buddhas. They're huge.
And when you see something like that, usually the Buddha
is in a sitting position in meditation or lying on
his side, which is just moments before his death. What
these statues represent is peace of mind, peace of body, equanimity,
(13:22):
equipose and serenity and to remind us that we also
have the ability and the quality of peacefulness.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
I wonder if you could talk a little bit about
because they sell these statues all over the place, and
I think most people think about like a Nike quality
and like a meditative thing. Is there anything wrong or
should people be concerned about like just buying these statues
if they aren't necessarily like practicing as a Buddhist.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Oh no, I don't think there's any reason to be
concerned about that now because pretty much now it's just
part of our culture. It says something not necessarily about
one's religious beliefs, but about one's aspiration to be at peace.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Got it. And finally, I wonder if you could talk
about the role of chanting.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
The role of chanting is similar to the role of
prayer and similar to the role of meditation, and also
I would say, similar to the role of yoga. That
these practices are meant to bring people into a concentrated
state of mind, a prayerful state of mind where you
(14:30):
are reciting. It could be I won't say anything, but
their variety of chants chanting on the nature of the cosmos.
The point is whatever it is that you're chanting on.
It releases you from the work of making your personality.
So you're not engaged in discursive thought, you're not engaged
(14:54):
in conversation with others. You are repeating a phrase that
release you from the burdens of personality making. And it's
said that when you get into that concentrative state of
mind through chanting, you are merging with all that is.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
So would you say that chanting is similar to like affirmations.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
I think a chant can be similar to an affirmation,
But as I understand affirmations, generally speaking, affirmations are about
reciting positive words about one's self, and chanting in Buddhism
usually is not about chanting positive affirmations about oneself, but
about chanting on the nature of reality, which then when
(15:39):
you get in that particular state of mind, you are
merged with that reality. You actualize that you are not
separate from that reality.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
I know, I'm wondering because you talked about being raised
as a part of the United Methodist Church, and all
of the things that you are describing in terms of
like compassion and putting out good thing so that good
things come back to you, kind of thing like that
To me, does not seem drastically different from what I
think Christianity is supposed to a theory, be right. Yet
(16:14):
I think sometimes when people find people who are practicing
Buddhists or who are like living Buddhist principles, it feels
like there is this oh my gosh, what are you
worshiping kind of thing. And I don't know if some
of it is because of like the Buddha figurine or
statue and people see that as a deity. Although you
said some people, right, so it doesn't even sound like
Buddha is a deity, so to speak, in your religion,
(16:36):
can you talk about maybe some of the misconceptions and
maybe like some of the things that you have noticed
that are different from practicing as a Buddhist versus your
time in the United Methodist Church.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
Okay, so there's a lot there, Doctor Jordan, I know. Okay,
so let me see I want to go back for
a moment and say, Buddhism sounds very similar to Christianity.
I think it is. I think that's the reason why
many Christians practice Buddhism. First of all, Buddhism can be
a religion, but it need not be a religion. It
(17:08):
can be a way of life. Some say it was
a way of life before people made it a religion.
So philosophy, it's a set of ethics, it's a psychology.
So people are attracted to different parts of Buddhism for
different reasons. So you can be a Christian in practice Buddhism.
And the Christians who I know who practice Buddhism do
(17:30):
it because they said it helps them be a better Christian.
It's broken down, right, the practices, the philosophies are broken
down so that we know how to love, we know
how to be compassionate, we know how to be generous.
These are like formulas, if you will, in Buddhism that
(17:52):
helps support the Christian life.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
Got it? Okay? I appreciate you sharing that distinction because
I was assuming that it was more like the religion
is kind of practicing, but it can be all of
these other things. Like you said, the psychology a way
of life, a way of helping you to live out
even different religions in a better way.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
Or in a deeper way. Because if I say better
as of a comparison, and I don't want to do that,
maybe just enriching and in dialogue, these traditions should be
enriching one another. What can Buddhists learn from Christians, Muslims, Jews, six,
and so on. A lot.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
More from our conversation after the break, but first a
quick snippet of what's coming up next week on TVG.
Speaker 3 (18:36):
So, when we talk about retrograde, since Jupiter is the
planet of growth and opportunity in abundance, retrogrades are periods
of reflection. As you mentioned, it's a good time to
reflect on what you already have. So instead of trying
to add more to your plate or add more into
your life, it's a good time to reflect on what
(18:58):
you already have. Sometimes I think about Jupiter as a
planet that is also connected to gratitude, and I think
sometimes we can get caught up in this idea I
need more, I need to add, I need to keep
growing and pushing, which can sometimes rob us or oftentimes
rob us of our ability to appreciate what we already have.
(19:21):
And so I think when we talk about the Jupiter retrograde,
it's a good time to practice gratitude. So I wonder
(19:45):
if you could talk a little bit about maybe some
of the more well known or high profile black women
Buddhists that you've become aware of.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
What do you want me to say about them?
Speaker 1 (19:54):
I know so many well, just who they are, because
I think people might be surprised about people who practice
in these ways are learned about. Okay, right, there's so many,
and I'm hesitant because I'm going to forget something.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
So please forgive me for my friends. If you hear this,
please forgive me if I don't mention your name. Okay.
So some of the more high profile ones would be
the ones who've written, right, so Jan Willis, Reverend Angel,
Kyoto Williams, Kate Johnson, Zenju, Earthline Manual. Oh, and then
(20:26):
Ruth King. How could I forgotten Ruth King? Oh my gosh,
Lama Rod Owens, Lama Rod, if you're listening to this,
forgive me. I was thinking about women. I'm so sorry.
Lamar Rod is one of the most well known Black
Buddhist writers today, and just more and more are coming
out all the time. So it's an exciting time.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
Okay. So that gives people a good starting place that
will likely lead them to other people, probably almost definitely.
So let's say somebody's listening in there, like, okay, this
sounds good, I feel like I want to learn more
about what I always talking about. What's a good starting
point for them? Would it be the book that you
were introduced to? Like, what would you say for somebody
who wants to learn more about Buddhism?
Speaker 2 (21:08):
Okay, So I'm chuckling because I'm going to mention the
book I co edited with Cheryl Giles. Okay, Black and Buddhist.
And one of the reasons why I'm recommending that book
is because it is an anthology authors from different traditions
(21:28):
writing about what it has meant for them to be
black in the United States and practicing Buddhism. So I
like that book for that reason. And there's all of
the books that I'm aware of from black authors who
are Buddhists are accessible, and that's what makes them special.
(21:48):
Rima Vessely Flatt her book is more academic, but it
is brilliant. And then Tiknat Hans's books. Here's what I
want to say about Tiknat Hans, the Vietnamese Buddhist monk
who passed not long ago. He wrote his books specifically
to be accessible to Westerners. They're simple, they're sweet, they're
(22:12):
deceptively wise, and I recommend them.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Yes, okay, So talk to me more about the experience
of being black in Buddhists, because I feel like anywhere
black people go, we realize, especially in systems that were
not built for us or we were not at the
history of the foundations of them, we noticed these glaring
omissions are things that like enhance the understanding for us.
So tell me more about your experience, specifically being a
(22:36):
black woman in Buddhists.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Yeah. Well, having grown up in the United Methodist Church,
I received messages in different ways. Some I was conscious
of receiving, others I was not conscious of receiving about
Christian supremacy, about what it means to be black people
can only be Christian. And then, of course later in
the sixties we realized no, that it's not the case.
(23:01):
So it's only recently that it has risen to the
awareness generally speaking that there are many black people who
practice Buddhism and have for decades. One of the things
that I think being black and Buddhist presents. One of
the conflicts it presents, especially for people brand new, is
(23:21):
that they don't know that many black people who are
practicing Buddhism, so they practice and read by themselves, isolated
and wondering is this for me? I did the same thing, right,
is this for me? Thank you for this book. I'm
reading it, but is this for me? And in Tikna
Han's books, many of them, he'll say, don't just practice
(23:43):
by yourself, find a practice community. So I'm like, I
don't know about that. I don't know. But then about
two years into reading by myself, practicing by myself, I
did find communities that were beautiful and supportive. So that's good.
I think the rub for some black folks as it
relates to Buddhism will be does Buddhism support liberation for
(24:07):
black folks? Because when we see our protests for liberation,
for recognition, anti oppressive struggles, the spokespeople tend to be
from the churches, if they're coming from a religious point
of view. Rarely do we see Buddhists who are on
the front lines, or who have the microphone or have
(24:29):
the attention of the press. So that's a question does
Buddhism support black liberation? And I think the answer is yes.
The question is what does liberation mean from a black
point of view in the United States? And what does
liberation mean from a Buddhist point of view, and the
(24:50):
power of bringing these two thoughts together being black in
the United States, being Buddhist and black in the United
States is there's a powerful combination of liberative thought from
both traditions, being black in the United States and being Buddhist.
It's very powerful and that's what people will read in
(25:10):
the works of Jan Willis and Zinju Earthwin Manual and
Ruth King and Kate Johnson and Spring Washam wrote a
book about Harriet Tubman, and I think people should read it.
So there's a lot there for people to take in.
I want to mention two things. Lions Roar magazine just
(25:31):
recently issued a Black and Buddhist issue. I recommend people
check it out. And also the Awake Network hosted something
called the Black Buddhist Summit, and those videos can be
found on Princeton University's Center for the Study of Culture
and Religion. And so there's a groundswell right now of
(25:55):
curating the offerings of black Buddhists much easier to find now,
got it?
Speaker 1 (26:01):
And I wonder if you could say some about, like
how you've dealt with any racial discrimination you've experienced at
the hands of non black Buddhists call it out.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
Just because their Buddhists doesn't mean they get a pass right.
It's clear to me that Buddhism does not automatically erase
racist tendencies. That is a project that people have to
commit to. They have to recognize it. Maybe they don't
recognize it in themselves. It's up to those who are
on the receiving end of that kind of ignorance to
(26:32):
call it out and within a Sanga community work on
it together.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
I'm thinking through something, and please correct me if I'm
way off with this, But I wonder if in Buddhist spaces,
if there is not a misinterpretation of oh, white people
have these kinds of things because of like good karma
or karma. So how it's privilege, our oppression seen through
(26:56):
like a Buddhist lens. Does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Oh? Yeah, I think so. And then doctor Joy, you
tell me if I'm not speaking in a way that
is honoring where you're coming from. So, if we look
at one of the Buddha origin stories, he was wealthy, right,
he was wealthy. He was a prince, There was a warrior,
he was in the upper cast. He was destined to
(27:19):
receive his father's inheritance, and then he escaped from his
environment to see how people really lived, that people actually died,
they were poor, they were ill, they were old, unable,
and so on and so, according to one story, went
(27:40):
back to the palace, if you will, went back to
the compound, fret it, and then left. And in another story,
he never went back to the compound and just went
straight to the forest to figure out how can I
avoid how can I avoid this kind of pain and suffering.
I share this to say that the Buddha renounced his wealth,
(28:04):
he renounced his inheritance. He went from being wealthy to
poor as poor can be. And so this is a
part of the story that a lot of people don't
dwell on that in order to learn how to let
go of suffering, one of the things that we probably
need to do is let go of all the artifice,
(28:27):
all the ways that people have propped us up to
think that we are entitled to this, and that that's
one way to start. And the fact that many of
us don't talk about that might say something about those
who are inheriting Buddhism. But I also want to say
this that a lot of people think that Buddhism is
mostly practiced by white people. That's not the case. It
(28:50):
is the case that many white people have authored books
that helped bring light to Buddhism and Zen, but really
most of the practitioners of Buddhism are people of color.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
Got it? Okay? That is helpful. So it sounds like
inherent in like some of the teachings of Buddhism should
be questions and conversations around like privilege and those kinds
of things and cast Yes, got it. So I wonder
if you would share with us what was it like
talking with your family and other loved ones about your
(29:21):
newly found kind of relationship to Buddhism and the things
that you were learning about Buddhism upon your fortieth birthday.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
That is so funny. We've yet to have that conversation.
It's been twenty two years. Yeah. Yeah, very little interest,
even though I don't have the kind of family that
has been very curious about my religious leanings. That should
not dissuade people from pursuing their path. And if they
(29:52):
have the opportunity and desire to say something in their
family about what they're interested in and they get pushback
from it, I would say a Buddhist practice might be
just understanding that all of us are conditioned in certain ways,
(30:13):
all of us, and it is part of the human
condition to push back on things we're not familiar with,
since that's part of the human condition, and the defenses
arise to not take it personally. This is just the
nature of being human. And also don't give in, because
(30:33):
ultimately one's wellbeing is their own responsibility. So you can
just say, yeah, okay, just want to share that with you.
I see that you're not really that interested, and that's
cool because Buddhism is not a proselytizing tradition, and so
that's not really the conversation we want to be in.
You have every right to pursue and practice what is
(30:56):
meaningful to you, and so do I, and we can
co exiit together in those pursuits. And also, yes, I
have been fortunate to find many people, many countless people
who have supported me along the way and still do.
And I try to do my best to support people
as well. And that's where the joy comes from. The
(31:17):
joy isn't doctor joy. The joy is in, as you know,
The joy is in supporting a person as they are
struggling and supporting them through their struggles and being able
to see the ways that the light bulb comes on
(31:38):
that evidence of insight and resilience, the courage to move forward.
I say, that's what I live for, and so that
can be found in Buddhist communities and can be found
in Christian communities, Muslim communities. They all offer people a
path towards healing, and what we need to do is
(32:01):
figure out what path or paths work best for us.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
More from our conversation after the break, So you've already
started giving us some incredible resources. I think you mentioned
the Lions Roar and the Awake Network Black Buddhists of it.
Are there other resources of their podcasts or films or
(32:27):
things that you were aware of that you think could
be helpful for people who are wanting to learn more.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
Oh? Yes, so I keep going back to Lions RAR.
So let me explain why I do have a prejudice. Okay,
I was an associate editor with Lions Rhar for three years.
My specific role as an associate editor was to highlight
black Buddhists. So if you go to the Lions Roar website,
(32:52):
you can find several podcasts with Black Buddhists. If you
go to the archives, several articles by black Buddhists, but
also tricycle. The Buddhist Review also has podcasts and articles
by Black Buddhists and Buddhist Piece Fellowship I want to
highlight I mentioned Kate Johnson. She's one of the directors
(33:15):
of the Buddhist Peace Fellowship. One of the reasons why
I want to highlight Buddhist Piece Fellowship is because that's
where I think people who are looking for a liberative
activist organization within Buddhism, they'll find it within the Buddhist
Piece Fellowship.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Thank you for that. That can be very helpful, I
would imagine for some people, thank you for sharing that.
So what would you say, IO about are some strategies
for how we can end the stigma related to like
you mentioned, like this idea that all black people practice Christianity.
What kinds of things can we really continue to do
and say look in that stigma.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
The first thing is that we all know deep in
our hearts that black people are not a monolith. We
know that, right. You got all kinds of people, like
in all kinds of things, doing all kinds of things,
look in all kinds of ways, speaking all kinds of
languages throughout the world. Let's pay attention to the ways
(34:10):
that we try to reduce blackness to one image. Right,
we do violence to the black community worldwide. When we
do that. Number two, we have to realize how Christianity
came into our lives in this aspect of the diaspora.
It's through force and through violence. And so if we
(34:31):
are to be people in pursuit of freedom, freedom of
mind and heart, then let's celebrate when black people are
in the pursuit of freedom. We don't know where it's
going to lead, because on this earth and in this cosmos,
it could lead anywhere. So that's one thing. And also
we have to pay attention to the ways we vilify
(34:54):
black folks when they don't act in certain ways or
belong to certain groups that we think only black people
should be x y Z. I get it, I really
do get it. But let's pay attention to the ways
that we do that, because when we do that, then
we are also contributing to the harm of black people.
And black folks don't need any more folks harm in us. Right,
(35:17):
when you talk about stigma, I have found the best
way to reduce the impact and the power of stigma
is to give voice to what that stigma is, offer
alternative views and visions, and be able to embrace people
across our differences and not be afraid. Stigma can lead
to fear and othering and punishing people who are not
(35:41):
deserving of that punishment.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
So so many of the things that you share today, IYO,
Really it sounds like support good mental health, right, So
you talked about health, compassion, you talked about meditation and mindfulness,
like all of the things that we are typically working
with clients about in practicing to support their mental health.
Talk a little bit more about how Buddhist teachings have
supported your mental health and other things you like to
(36:04):
share about the connection between mental health and Buddhism.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
This is a topic I'm very passionate about. I'm a
pastoral counselor in private practice, so my clients come from
a variety of backgrounds. Some are Buddhism, are not Buddhist practitioners.
But the thing I would say across the board that
supports good mental health is to have the ability to
(36:29):
tell one's truth to someone who's not judgmental. And that's
what being in counseling and psychotherapy is about right. I
trust that I can go to fill in the blank
and spill my guts, spill the beans, the tea, all
of it, and not be judged. My hope is that
(36:49):
in that context and that container, that safe container, that
people then can hear themselves, hear themselves speak, and also
have their goodness reflected back to them. So back to
basic goodness. From a Buddhist perspective, all people possess basic goodness, right,
(37:11):
and so that is also akin to a strength based
counseling and psychotherapeutic approach. It's our job to reflect that goodness,
that strength back to them, just in case they've forgotten right,
Because our minds are complicated, we forget right. It's like,
oh yeah, I tackled that in the past. Oh yes,
(37:34):
I stood up to XYZ. Oh yes, I am able
to do x YZ. So that reflection back to the
meditation that I mentioned, that very first meditation that I
mentioned from Tikna Han breathing in, I am like still water,
breathing out, reflecting. Right, that's our job is to reflect.
(37:58):
And when people recognize that their goodness is being reflected,
they believe it. They have a greater chance, I should say,
believing it. They may not believe the first or second time.
They may not believe it the first year, but with
good work, eventually they will believe it and live out
of it.
Speaker 1 (38:17):
And can you say more about the role of yoga
and meditation specifically in Buddhism.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
So here's my understanding. This comes out of the yoga
sutras of potentially or patanjolly, depending on how you want
to pronounce it. That holding one position and breathing deeply
is itself yoga. Controlling the subtle energies that allows the
body to stay still supports a meditative mind because you're
(38:47):
returning your breath over and over again to your object
of meditation. Oftentimes it's the breath. This if we can
do it, and we may not be able to do
it the first time for more than ten minutes or
more than five five minutes, so it's a practice to
be able to do that for fifteen minutes, twenty minutes,
work up to thirty minutes. This relaxes the body. It
(39:08):
strengthens our ability to be erect, keep our spine erect.
It allows if I can be I don't know Freudian
about it not Freudian. Maybe I don't know. I'll bring
a little bit of Freudian. When we sit in meditation,
stuff comes up from the unconscious mind. In Buddhism, it
might be called store consciousness, right, but it comes up.
(39:32):
And for a lot of people, they're surprised by what
comes up, especially initially in meditation. Right it's like ooh, oh, ooh,
this is too difficult. I'm agitated. I need to stop.
And maybe a person does need to stop initially when
they realize that this is what happens to meditation.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
But to be.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
Able to allow it to arise, encounter it, and not
try to push it away is what meditation is about,
and it's what God that mental health is about, accepting ourselves,
accepting our lives, noticing when things arise, and making a
decision based on what we want to act on, if anything,
(40:12):
what we want to speak out, if anything, it's noticing
the mind and making decisions about it. So yoga as meditation.
Meditation as yoga supporting the unconscious mind and the awareness
of how we've been living. And sometimes when people go
to meditation retreats where they're sitting for forty five minutes
(40:34):
at a time, walking forty five minutes at a time,
spending hours in silence. All that stuff coming up in
the first few days gives people an idea. You know what,
So this is what I've been doing and living like
the last few years. Oh my goodness, let me make
some changes because look at all this stuff that's coming up.
Speaker 1 (40:54):
Yeah, I think that that's why so many of us
have difficulty with meditation and stillness. Right, you don't want
to deal with all this stuff that does come up.
So is there anything that we have not talked about
today that you feel like? If I didn't say this thing,
I would be totally regretful.
Speaker 2 (41:10):
Just one thing. When I think about therapy for black girls,
I think there's not a lot in our culture that
supports meditation and mindfulness for young black girls. That's boring, right,
Who would want to do that? I'm trying to do this.
That be part of this group, get this work done,
(41:33):
play whatever. Just sitting in silence is not the thing, right.
But I want to say that the sooner black girls
can learn how to manage their stress, the better. Stress
and lots of stress leads to all kinds of poor
ways of trying to manage that stress. Drinking, smoking drugs,
(41:58):
self medicating, we're eating, lack of exercise, getting in relationships
that are not beneficial, becoming a doormat. There are many
things that are related to a stressful life. So the
sooner black girls can learn to manage their stress, the better.
Speaker 1 (42:17):
I love it. Thank you for sharing that. So where
can we stay connected with you? What is your website
as well as any social media channels you'd like to share?
Speaker 2 (42:25):
I was told the other day I'm a Boomer, so
I'll start with Facebook, the boomers platform. I can be
found there, but I also have a website also Boomer
Pamela ayo ya Toundae is the website address. I'm also
on LinkedIn because again I've already said that boomer and
(42:46):
I also have an Instagram account that I rarely use,
but I'm going to learn how to use it, I promise,
and that's where I can be found for now.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
We will be sure to include that in our show notes.
Thank you so much for spending time with us today.
Speaker 2 (42:58):
Thank you, doctor John Pleasure, wishing you all the best.
You're doing great work.
Speaker 1 (43:06):
I'm so glad Doctor Yetunde was able to join me
for this conversation to learn more about her and her work.
Be sure to visit the show notes at Therapy for
Blackgirls dot com slash Session three eighty nine, and don't
forget to text this episode to two of your girls
right now and tell them to check it out. If
you're looking for a therapist in your area, visit our
therapist directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory.
(43:30):
And if you want to continue digging into this topic
or just be in community with other sisters, come on
over and join us in the Sister Circle. It's our
cozy corner of the Internet designed just for black women.
You can join us at community dot Therapy for Blackgirls
dot com. This episode was produced by Alise Ellens, Zaria Taylor,
and Tyree Rush. Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank
(43:52):
y'all so much for joining me again this week. I
look forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon.
Take good care
Speaker 2 (44:01):
The best pench for pot Wood
Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
(00:32):
to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
(00:57):
for joining me for session three eighty nine of the
Therapy for Black Girl's podcast. We'll get right into our
conversation afterword from our sponsors.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Hi, I'm doctor Pamela Iyoya Tonday, and I'm on the
Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. I'm in session today unpacking
being a Black woman Buddhist.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
As we continue to explore the experiences of black women
from several religious backgrounds. This week, I'm in conversation with
doctor Pamela Ioya tune Day, who shares her journey of
becoming a practicing Buddhist doctor. Yetunda is a pastoral counselor
and the author of several books, including Casting Indra's Net
and The Forthcoming Dearly Beloved Prince Spirituality in This Thing
(01:47):
Called Life. Io is also the co editor of the
Nautilus's Book award winning anthology Black and Buddhist What Buddhism
Can teach Us about Race, Resilience, transformation and Freedom. Our
conversation we explored some of the basic principles of Buddhism,
how Buddhism as a philosophy can inform our practice of
(02:07):
other religions, and the significance of mindfulness activities such as
yoga and meditation within Buddhism. If something resonates with you
while enjoying our conversation, please share with us on social
media using the hashtag TVG in Session or join us
over in the Sister Circle To talk more about the episode.
You can join us at Community dot Therapy from Blackgirls
(02:30):
dot com. Here's our conversation, Aiyo, thank you so much
for joining us today.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Thank you for the invitation.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Yeah, I'm excited to chat with you, So I wonder
if you could get us started by telling us a
little bit about your journey of discovering Buddhism. How long
have you been practicing and what are some of the
most interesting things that you've learned.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Yeah, well, I'll say that I grew up in the
United Methodist Church. I was introduced to Buddhist thought about
a month after or the bombing of the World Trade
Center because I had asked my friends to give me
peace of mind for my fortieth birthday and a friend
gave me a copy of a book by Tick mat
Hank called Touching Peace, and that was my introduction And
(03:14):
one of the things that I've learned from Buddhism. And
there are many things I would say. One of the
things is about self compassion, being gentle with oneself. Now
I said one thing, but all of these things are related.
I am basically good and if I can remember that,
(03:34):
that will inform my decisions from that point forward.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
Oh I love that. So there are so many places
I feel like we're going to go with this conversation.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
IYO.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
But I'm curious. So you've got this book as a
part of you know, you asking for this peace of
mind following this, of course, very traumatic event, and did
you immediately know Okay, this is what I'm going to
start practicing. What was the journey like after you got
that book.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Well, I wanted peace of mind so bad I was
desperate for it that I was willing to try just
about anything that I thought would be healthy. So the
short meditation exercise at the beginning of the book goes
something like this, breathing in, I know that I am
breathing in, breathing out. I know that I am breathing out,
(04:20):
in out, breathing in. I see myself as a flower
breathing out. I feel fresh, flower fresh. And then it
goes round like that, imagining oneself as a mountain, imagining
oneself as a stream. And after that short exercise, I
felt settled, and I was settling, and so one thing
(04:43):
led to another. Also, right around the same time, I
began volunteering with Zen Hospice Project, because for years I
had wanted to be a hospice volunteer. So it was
a very powerful combination of reading about Buddhism, practicing guided
meditations and visualizations, and being in service to dying people.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
So for people who may not be familiar, can you
talk with us about some of the guiding principles of Buddhism.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
One of the guiding principles is compassion. If you hear
anything about Buddhism, no matter where the Buddhism comes from,
no matter what the country is or the particular strand
or lineage or school of Buddhism, compassion is going to
be at the center and the heart of that school
of thought. So compassion, loving kindness, equanimity or balance, sympathetic joy,
(05:39):
in other words, rejoicing in the joy and successes of
other people. These are core principles that you'll find throughout Buddhism,
as well as practicing mindfulness and meditation and chanting. Life
is hard. Life is really hard. And in order to
make it in this life, and to make it in
(06:00):
such a way that you're actually contributing in a beneficial way,
you need to be disciplined, right. You need to discipline
your mind, your body, your thoughts, your behaviors, the words
that come out of your mouth, and in doing these things.
The great thing about doing these things is that when
you do them, and do them well and do them frequently, generally,
(06:22):
you don't get a lot of negativity coming back your way,
because people have nothing to negatively react to, generally speaking.
And so I think that people can find the benefit
of practicing Buddhism pretty quickly. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
So, I mean some of the things that you've mentioned,
I feel like have taken on a kind of life
of their own, even outside of people who are practicing Buddhism.
So we hear a lot of like terms in just
general culture that I wonder if you could explain to
us a little bit more. So we've already talked a
little bit about meditation, but can you say more about
what meditation is?
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Yes, So, meditation is turning one's attention to object over
and over again. The purpose of doing that is to
learn how to concentrate. In the world that we're living
in now, our attention is being scattered all over the place,
can hardly focus, and so there is a benefit to
(07:18):
being able to focus on something, and meditation helps us
be better at focusing on something. When we focus on something,
then we can be more intimate with that, we can
be more at peace. And that is the purpose of meditation.
And there are countless ways to meditate.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Got it? What about the lotus flower?
Speaker 2 (07:40):
The lotus flower in the mud represents one that life
is full of messiness and beauty. You know, the messiness
being the mud, The flower being the beauty. It also
represents that beauty comes from the mud. So when one
things you know, I mess or I'm nasty, or I'm ugly,
(08:02):
or I'm unworthy and all that. In Buddhism, they would
be taught, okay, great, use all that belief about your unworthiness, nastiness,
what have you, and use it as medicine to grow
the lotus. Because the lotus grows in the mud. The
seeds of beauty are in what you think is ugly,
(08:24):
so nurture that. And also the lotus and the mud
represent nonduality. You can't separate one from the other, so
try not to separate that internally or externally. Try to
cultivate a mind that accepts all and understand how they
enter are. In other words, compost right is the garbage
(08:48):
that gives life to the beauty?
Speaker 1 (08:52):
Got it? Got it? What about the dormal wheel?
Speaker 2 (08:55):
The dharma wheel represents the noble eightfold path. So it
is said in Buddhism in many schools and lineages of Buddhism,
that healing comes from the four noble truths, the first
truth being there is suffering, the second truth being there
(09:16):
are causes for suffering, The third noble truth is suffering
can be eliminated or it can be diminished or mitigated
or healed. And then the will represents the eight spokes
of the noble eightfold path that one could visit. Some
(09:36):
of the things on the noble eightfold path include how
you look at life all phenomena and that would be
considered right view. How you pay attention, that's right mindfulness,
right concentration, how you meditate, right action. What are your
behaviors that contribute to beneficial outcomes? Right livelihood. There is
(10:02):
an impact on everything we do, and if you're making
money in a way that hurts people, then there's a
very strong likelihood that you're going to create negative karma,
not only for yourself but for others. So that's what
the will represents. And the suggestion is it has to
be turned in a certain way that you have to
(10:22):
start at one point and then go around the will
in clockwise fashion. You can enter this will at any point.
You may say, oh, right speech for me. For me,
I grew up hearing that it's just best to just
get off your chest say whatever you want to say
to people, regardless of the impact. Through Buddhism, I've learned
(10:43):
that actually I would prefer to give some thought, be
mindful about my thoughts about what I'm about to say,
so that I say it in a way that it's
not harmful and produces good and that's called right speech.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
And can you say a little bit more about karma
as you understand it from Buddhist teachings.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Yes, So karma is meant in many ways. One of
the ways it's meant is that if you do something,
or even if you think something, there's going to be
an impact, and something is going to impact you as
a result of the things that you say, think and do.
But karma also has a cosmic quality to it as well.
(11:25):
That is beyond our understanding that there are things that happen,
there are causes and conditions for all phenomena, and sometimes
we don't know why something has landed on us. It
could be karma from past generations or in the cosmos,
but basically cause and effect, that's what karma is. Generally speaking.
(11:47):
Typically we don't practice Buddhism and understand karma as we
do in order to get something back right, it's not
in exchange. It's more for the joy of living a
blameless life. So you don't have to go to bed
word about oh are they gonna come back and get
(12:07):
me because I did XYZ. But it's more from a
heart of generosity that we practice the way we do
with the philosophies around karma and the understanding of karma.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Got it okay? Can you say something about the Buddha?
So we I think sometimes see statues, we see the
Buddha depicted as a part of Buddhist teachings. Can you
talk to us about what that means?
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Right? There are Buddhist statues in our culture, and for
some people they revere the Buddha as a deity, as
a god like figure. For some people, the Buddha is
a historical figure. In either case, historical or cosmic, the
Buddha represents one's capacity for awakening. And if you travel
(12:57):
outside the United States, actually don't have to travel outside
the United States to see massive statues of Buddhas. They're huge.
And when you see something like that, usually the Buddha
is in a sitting position in meditation or lying on
his side, which is just moments before his death. What
these statues represent is peace of mind, peace of body, equanimity,
(13:22):
equipose and serenity and to remind us that we also
have the ability and the quality of peacefulness.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
I wonder if you could talk a little bit about
because they sell these statues all over the place, and
I think most people think about like a Nike quality
and like a meditative thing. Is there anything wrong or
should people be concerned about like just buying these statues
if they aren't necessarily like practicing as a Buddhist.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Oh no, I don't think there's any reason to be
concerned about that now because pretty much now it's just
part of our culture. It says something not necessarily about
one's religious beliefs, but about one's aspiration to be at peace.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Got it. And finally, I wonder if you could talk
about the role of chanting.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
The role of chanting is similar to the role of
prayer and similar to the role of meditation, and also
I would say, similar to the role of yoga. That
these practices are meant to bring people into a concentrated
state of mind, a prayerful state of mind where you
(14:30):
are reciting. It could be I won't say anything, but
their variety of chants chanting on the nature of the cosmos.
The point is whatever it is that you're chanting on.
It releases you from the work of making your personality.
So you're not engaged in discursive thought, you're not engaged
(14:54):
in conversation with others. You are repeating a phrase that
release you from the burdens of personality making. And it's
said that when you get into that concentrative state of
mind through chanting, you are merging with all that is.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
So would you say that chanting is similar to like affirmations.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
I think a chant can be similar to an affirmation,
But as I understand affirmations, generally speaking, affirmations are about
reciting positive words about one's self, and chanting in Buddhism
usually is not about chanting positive affirmations about oneself, but
about chanting on the nature of reality, which then when
(15:39):
you get in that particular state of mind, you are
merged with that reality. You actualize that you are not
separate from that reality.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
I know, I'm wondering because you talked about being raised
as a part of the United Methodist Church, and all
of the things that you are describing in terms of
like compassion and putting out good thing so that good
things come back to you, kind of thing like that
To me, does not seem drastically different from what I
think Christianity is supposed to a theory, be right. Yet
(16:14):
I think sometimes when people find people who are practicing
Buddhists or who are like living Buddhist principles, it feels
like there is this oh my gosh, what are you
worshiping kind of thing. And I don't know if some
of it is because of like the Buddha figurine or
statue and people see that as a deity. Although you
said some people, right, so it doesn't even sound like
Buddha is a deity, so to speak, in your religion,
(16:36):
can you talk about maybe some of the misconceptions and
maybe like some of the things that you have noticed
that are different from practicing as a Buddhist versus your
time in the United Methodist Church.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
Okay, so there's a lot there, Doctor Jordan, I know. Okay,
so let me see I want to go back for
a moment and say, Buddhism sounds very similar to Christianity.
I think it is. I think that's the reason why
many Christians practice Buddhism. First of all, Buddhism can be
a religion, but it need not be a religion. It
(17:08):
can be a way of life. Some say it was
a way of life before people made it a religion.
So philosophy, it's a set of ethics, it's a psychology.
So people are attracted to different parts of Buddhism for
different reasons. So you can be a Christian in practice Buddhism.
And the Christians who I know who practice Buddhism do
(17:30):
it because they said it helps them be a better Christian.
It's broken down, right, the practices, the philosophies are broken
down so that we know how to love, we know
how to be compassionate, we know how to be generous.
These are like formulas, if you will, in Buddhism that
(17:52):
helps support the Christian life.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
Got it? Okay? I appreciate you sharing that distinction because
I was assuming that it was more like the religion
is kind of practicing, but it can be all of
these other things. Like you said, the psychology a way
of life, a way of helping you to live out
even different religions in a better way.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
Or in a deeper way. Because if I say better
as of a comparison, and I don't want to do that,
maybe just enriching and in dialogue, these traditions should be
enriching one another. What can Buddhists learn from Christians, Muslims, Jews, six,
and so on. A lot.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
More from our conversation after the break, but first a
quick snippet of what's coming up next week on TVG.
Speaker 3 (18:36):
So, when we talk about retrograde, since Jupiter is the
planet of growth and opportunity in abundance, retrogrades are periods
of reflection. As you mentioned, it's a good time to
reflect on what you already have. So instead of trying
to add more to your plate or add more into
your life, it's a good time to reflect on what
(18:58):
you already have. Sometimes I think about Jupiter as a
planet that is also connected to gratitude, and I think
sometimes we can get caught up in this idea I
need more, I need to add, I need to keep
growing and pushing, which can sometimes rob us or oftentimes
rob us of our ability to appreciate what we already have.
(19:21):
And so I think when we talk about the Jupiter retrograde,
it's a good time to practice gratitude. So I wonder
(19:45):
if you could talk a little bit about maybe some
of the more well known or high profile black women
Buddhists that you've become aware of.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
What do you want me to say about them?
Speaker 1 (19:54):
I know so many well, just who they are, because
I think people might be surprised about people who practice
in these ways are learned about. Okay, right, there's so many,
and I'm hesitant because I'm going to forget something.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
So please forgive me for my friends. If you hear this,
please forgive me if I don't mention your name. Okay.
So some of the more high profile ones would be
the ones who've written, right, so Jan Willis, Reverend Angel,
Kyoto Williams, Kate Johnson, Zenju, Earthline Manual. Oh, and then
(20:26):
Ruth King. How could I forgotten Ruth King? Oh my gosh,
Lama Rod Owens, Lama Rod, if you're listening to this,
forgive me. I was thinking about women. I'm so sorry.
Lamar Rod is one of the most well known Black
Buddhist writers today, and just more and more are coming
out all the time. So it's an exciting time.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
Okay. So that gives people a good starting place that
will likely lead them to other people, probably almost definitely.
So let's say somebody's listening in there, like, okay, this
sounds good, I feel like I want to learn more
about what I always talking about. What's a good starting
point for them? Would it be the book that you
were introduced to? Like, what would you say for somebody
who wants to learn more about Buddhism?
Speaker 2 (21:08):
Okay, So I'm chuckling because I'm going to mention the
book I co edited with Cheryl Giles. Okay, Black and Buddhist.
And one of the reasons why I'm recommending that book
is because it is an anthology authors from different traditions
(21:28):
writing about what it has meant for them to be
black in the United States and practicing Buddhism. So I
like that book for that reason. And there's all of
the books that I'm aware of from black authors who
are Buddhists are accessible, and that's what makes them special.
(21:48):
Rima Vessely Flatt her book is more academic, but it
is brilliant. And then Tiknat Hans's books. Here's what I
want to say about Tiknat Hans, the Vietnamese Buddhist monk
who passed not long ago. He wrote his books specifically
to be accessible to Westerners. They're simple, they're sweet, they're
(22:12):
deceptively wise, and I recommend them.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Yes, okay, So talk to me more about the experience
of being black in Buddhists, because I feel like anywhere
black people go, we realize, especially in systems that were
not built for us or we were not at the
history of the foundations of them, we noticed these glaring
omissions are things that like enhance the understanding for us.
So tell me more about your experience, specifically being a
(22:36):
black woman in Buddhists.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Yeah. Well, having grown up in the United Methodist Church,
I received messages in different ways. Some I was conscious
of receiving, others I was not conscious of receiving about
Christian supremacy, about what it means to be black people
can only be Christian. And then, of course later in
the sixties we realized no, that it's not the case.
(23:01):
So it's only recently that it has risen to the
awareness generally speaking that there are many black people who
practice Buddhism and have for decades. One of the things
that I think being black and Buddhist presents. One of
the conflicts it presents, especially for people brand new, is
(23:21):
that they don't know that many black people who are
practicing Buddhism, so they practice and read by themselves, isolated
and wondering is this for me? I did the same thing, right,
is this for me? Thank you for this book. I'm
reading it, but is this for me? And in Tikna
Han's books, many of them, he'll say, don't just practice
(23:43):
by yourself, find a practice community. So I'm like, I
don't know about that. I don't know. But then about
two years into reading by myself, practicing by myself, I
did find communities that were beautiful and supportive. So that's good.
I think the rub for some black folks as it
relates to Buddhism will be does Buddhism support liberation for
(24:07):
black folks? Because when we see our protests for liberation,
for recognition, anti oppressive struggles, the spokespeople tend to be
from the churches, if they're coming from a religious point
of view. Rarely do we see Buddhists who are on
the front lines, or who have the microphone or have
(24:29):
the attention of the press. So that's a question does
Buddhism support black liberation? And I think the answer is yes.
The question is what does liberation mean from a black
point of view in the United States? And what does
liberation mean from a Buddhist point of view, and the
(24:50):
power of bringing these two thoughts together being black in
the United States, being Buddhist and black in the United
States is there's a powerful combination of liberative thought from
both traditions, being black in the United States and being Buddhist.
It's very powerful and that's what people will read in
(25:10):
the works of Jan Willis and Zinju Earthwin Manual and
Ruth King and Kate Johnson and Spring Washam wrote a
book about Harriet Tubman, and I think people should read it.
So there's a lot there for people to take in.
I want to mention two things. Lions Roar magazine just
(25:31):
recently issued a Black and Buddhist issue. I recommend people
check it out. And also the Awake Network hosted something
called the Black Buddhist Summit, and those videos can be
found on Princeton University's Center for the Study of Culture
and Religion. And so there's a groundswell right now of
(25:55):
curating the offerings of black Buddhists much easier to find now,
got it?
Speaker 1 (26:01):
And I wonder if you could say some about, like
how you've dealt with any racial discrimination you've experienced at
the hands of non black Buddhists call it out.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
Just because their Buddhists doesn't mean they get a pass right.
It's clear to me that Buddhism does not automatically erase
racist tendencies. That is a project that people have to
commit to. They have to recognize it. Maybe they don't
recognize it in themselves. It's up to those who are
on the receiving end of that kind of ignorance to
(26:32):
call it out and within a Sanga community work on
it together.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
I'm thinking through something, and please correct me if I'm
way off with this, But I wonder if in Buddhist spaces,
if there is not a misinterpretation of oh, white people
have these kinds of things because of like good karma
or karma. So how it's privilege, our oppression seen through
(26:56):
like a Buddhist lens. Does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Oh? Yeah, I think so. And then doctor Joy, you
tell me if I'm not speaking in a way that
is honoring where you're coming from. So, if we look
at one of the Buddha origin stories, he was wealthy, right,
he was wealthy. He was a prince, There was a warrior,
he was in the upper cast. He was destined to
(27:19):
receive his father's inheritance, and then he escaped from his
environment to see how people really lived, that people actually died,
they were poor, they were ill, they were old, unable,
and so on and so, according to one story, went
(27:40):
back to the palace, if you will, went back to
the compound, fret it, and then left. And in another story,
he never went back to the compound and just went
straight to the forest to figure out how can I
avoid how can I avoid this kind of pain and suffering.
I share this to say that the Buddha renounced his wealth,
(28:04):
he renounced his inheritance. He went from being wealthy to
poor as poor can be. And so this is a
part of the story that a lot of people don't
dwell on that in order to learn how to let
go of suffering, one of the things that we probably
need to do is let go of all the artifice,
(28:27):
all the ways that people have propped us up to
think that we are entitled to this, and that that's
one way to start. And the fact that many of
us don't talk about that might say something about those
who are inheriting Buddhism. But I also want to say
this that a lot of people think that Buddhism is
mostly practiced by white people. That's not the case. It
(28:50):
is the case that many white people have authored books
that helped bring light to Buddhism and Zen, but really
most of the practitioners of Buddhism are people of color.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
Got it? Okay? That is helpful. So it sounds like
inherent in like some of the teachings of Buddhism should
be questions and conversations around like privilege and those kinds
of things and cast Yes, got it. So I wonder
if you would share with us what was it like
talking with your family and other loved ones about your
(29:21):
newly found kind of relationship to Buddhism and the things
that you were learning about Buddhism upon your fortieth birthday.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
That is so funny. We've yet to have that conversation.
It's been twenty two years. Yeah. Yeah, very little interest,
even though I don't have the kind of family that
has been very curious about my religious leanings. That should
not dissuade people from pursuing their path. And if they
(29:52):
have the opportunity and desire to say something in their
family about what they're interested in and they get pushback
from it, I would say a Buddhist practice might be
just understanding that all of us are conditioned in certain ways,
(30:13):
all of us, and it is part of the human
condition to push back on things we're not familiar with,
since that's part of the human condition, and the defenses
arise to not take it personally. This is just the
nature of being human. And also don't give in, because
(30:33):
ultimately one's wellbeing is their own responsibility. So you can
just say, yeah, okay, just want to share that with you.
I see that you're not really that interested, and that's
cool because Buddhism is not a proselytizing tradition, and so
that's not really the conversation we want to be in.
You have every right to pursue and practice what is
(30:56):
meaningful to you, and so do I, and we can
co exiit together in those pursuits. And also, yes, I
have been fortunate to find many people, many countless people
who have supported me along the way and still do.
And I try to do my best to support people
as well. And that's where the joy comes from. The
(31:17):
joy isn't doctor joy. The joy is in, as you know,
The joy is in supporting a person as they are
struggling and supporting them through their struggles and being able
to see the ways that the light bulb comes on
(31:38):
that evidence of insight and resilience, the courage to move forward.
I say, that's what I live for, and so that
can be found in Buddhist communities and can be found
in Christian communities, Muslim communities. They all offer people a
path towards healing, and what we need to do is
(32:01):
figure out what path or paths work best for us.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
More from our conversation after the break, So you've already
started giving us some incredible resources. I think you mentioned
the Lions Roar and the Awake Network Black Buddhists of it.
Are there other resources of their podcasts or films or
(32:27):
things that you were aware of that you think could
be helpful for people who are wanting to learn more.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
Oh? Yes, so I keep going back to Lions RAR.
So let me explain why I do have a prejudice. Okay,
I was an associate editor with Lions Rhar for three years.
My specific role as an associate editor was to highlight
black Buddhists. So if you go to the Lions Roar website,
(32:52):
you can find several podcasts with Black Buddhists. If you
go to the archives, several articles by black Buddhists, but
also tricycle. The Buddhist Review also has podcasts and articles
by Black Buddhists and Buddhist Piece Fellowship I want to
highlight I mentioned Kate Johnson. She's one of the directors
(33:15):
of the Buddhist Peace Fellowship. One of the reasons why
I want to highlight Buddhist Piece Fellowship is because that's
where I think people who are looking for a liberative
activist organization within Buddhism, they'll find it within the Buddhist
Piece Fellowship.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Thank you for that. That can be very helpful, I
would imagine for some people, thank you for sharing that.
So what would you say, IO about are some strategies
for how we can end the stigma related to like
you mentioned, like this idea that all black people practice Christianity.
What kinds of things can we really continue to do
and say look in that stigma.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
The first thing is that we all know deep in
our hearts that black people are not a monolith. We
know that, right. You got all kinds of people, like
in all kinds of things, doing all kinds of things,
look in all kinds of ways, speaking all kinds of
languages throughout the world. Let's pay attention to the ways
(34:10):
that we try to reduce blackness to one image. Right,
we do violence to the black community worldwide. When we
do that. Number two, we have to realize how Christianity
came into our lives in this aspect of the diaspora.
It's through force and through violence. And so if we
(34:31):
are to be people in pursuit of freedom, freedom of
mind and heart, then let's celebrate when black people are
in the pursuit of freedom. We don't know where it's
going to lead, because on this earth and in this cosmos,
it could lead anywhere. So that's one thing. And also
we have to pay attention to the ways we vilify
(34:54):
black folks when they don't act in certain ways or
belong to certain groups that we think only black people
should be x y Z. I get it, I really
do get it. But let's pay attention to the ways
that we do that, because when we do that, then
we are also contributing to the harm of black people.
And black folks don't need any more folks harm in us. Right,
(35:17):
when you talk about stigma, I have found the best
way to reduce the impact and the power of stigma
is to give voice to what that stigma is, offer
alternative views and visions, and be able to embrace people
across our differences and not be afraid. Stigma can lead
to fear and othering and punishing people who are not
(35:41):
deserving of that punishment.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
So so many of the things that you share today, IYO,
Really it sounds like support good mental health, right, So
you talked about health, compassion, you talked about meditation and mindfulness,
like all of the things that we are typically working
with clients about in practicing to support their mental health.
Talk a little bit more about how Buddhist teachings have
supported your mental health and other things you like to
(36:04):
share about the connection between mental health and Buddhism.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
This is a topic I'm very passionate about. I'm a
pastoral counselor in private practice, so my clients come from
a variety of backgrounds. Some are Buddhism, are not Buddhist practitioners.
But the thing I would say across the board that
supports good mental health is to have the ability to
(36:29):
tell one's truth to someone who's not judgmental. And that's
what being in counseling and psychotherapy is about right. I
trust that I can go to fill in the blank
and spill my guts, spill the beans, the tea, all
of it, and not be judged. My hope is that
(36:49):
in that context and that container, that safe container, that
people then can hear themselves, hear themselves speak, and also
have their goodness reflected back to them. So back to
basic goodness. From a Buddhist perspective, all people possess basic goodness, right,
(37:11):
and so that is also akin to a strength based
counseling and psychotherapeutic approach. It's our job to reflect that goodness,
that strength back to them, just in case they've forgotten right,
Because our minds are complicated, we forget right. It's like,
oh yeah, I tackled that in the past. Oh yes,
(37:34):
I stood up to XYZ. Oh yes, I am able
to do x YZ. So that reflection back to the
meditation that I mentioned, that very first meditation that I
mentioned from Tikna Han breathing in, I am like still water,
breathing out, reflecting. Right, that's our job is to reflect.
(37:58):
And when people recognize that their goodness is being reflected,
they believe it. They have a greater chance, I should say,
believing it. They may not believe the first or second time.
They may not believe it the first year, but with
good work, eventually they will believe it and live out
of it.
Speaker 1 (38:17):
And can you say more about the role of yoga
and meditation specifically in Buddhism.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
So here's my understanding. This comes out of the yoga
sutras of potentially or patanjolly, depending on how you want
to pronounce it. That holding one position and breathing deeply
is itself yoga. Controlling the subtle energies that allows the
body to stay still supports a meditative mind because you're
(38:47):
returning your breath over and over again to your object
of meditation. Oftentimes it's the breath. This if we can
do it, and we may not be able to do
it the first time for more than ten minutes or
more than five five minutes, so it's a practice to
be able to do that for fifteen minutes, twenty minutes,
work up to thirty minutes. This relaxes the body. It
(39:08):
strengthens our ability to be erect, keep our spine erect.
It allows if I can be I don't know Freudian
about it not Freudian. Maybe I don't know. I'll bring
a little bit of Freudian. When we sit in meditation,
stuff comes up from the unconscious mind. In Buddhism, it
might be called store consciousness, right, but it comes up.
(39:32):
And for a lot of people, they're surprised by what
comes up, especially initially in meditation. Right it's like ooh, oh, ooh,
this is too difficult. I'm agitated. I need to stop.
And maybe a person does need to stop initially when
they realize that this is what happens to meditation.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
But to be.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
Able to allow it to arise, encounter it, and not
try to push it away is what meditation is about,
and it's what God that mental health is about, accepting ourselves,
accepting our lives, noticing when things arise, and making a
decision based on what we want to act on, if anything,
(40:12):
what we want to speak out, if anything, it's noticing
the mind and making decisions about it. So yoga as meditation.
Meditation as yoga supporting the unconscious mind and the awareness
of how we've been living. And sometimes when people go
to meditation retreats where they're sitting for forty five minutes
(40:34):
at a time, walking forty five minutes at a time,
spending hours in silence. All that stuff coming up in
the first few days gives people an idea. You know what,
So this is what I've been doing and living like
the last few years. Oh my goodness, let me make
some changes because look at all this stuff that's coming up.
Speaker 1 (40:54):
Yeah, I think that that's why so many of us
have difficulty with meditation and stillness. Right, you don't want
to deal with all this stuff that does come up.
So is there anything that we have not talked about
today that you feel like? If I didn't say this thing,
I would be totally regretful.
Speaker 2 (41:10):
Just one thing. When I think about therapy for black girls,
I think there's not a lot in our culture that
supports meditation and mindfulness for young black girls. That's boring, right,
Who would want to do that? I'm trying to do this.
That be part of this group, get this work done,
(41:33):
play whatever. Just sitting in silence is not the thing, right.
But I want to say that the sooner black girls
can learn how to manage their stress, the better. Stress
and lots of stress leads to all kinds of poor
ways of trying to manage that stress. Drinking, smoking drugs,
(41:58):
self medicating, we're eating, lack of exercise, getting in relationships
that are not beneficial, becoming a doormat. There are many
things that are related to a stressful life. So the
sooner black girls can learn to manage their stress, the better.
Speaker 1 (42:17):
I love it. Thank you for sharing that. So where
can we stay connected with you? What is your website
as well as any social media channels you'd like to share?
Speaker 2 (42:25):
I was told the other day I'm a Boomer, so
I'll start with Facebook, the boomers platform. I can be
found there, but I also have a website also Boomer
Pamela ayo ya Toundae is the website address. I'm also
on LinkedIn because again I've already said that boomer and
(42:46):
I also have an Instagram account that I rarely use,
but I'm going to learn how to use it, I promise,
and that's where I can be found for now.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
We will be sure to include that in our show notes.
Thank you so much for spending time with us today.
Speaker 2 (42:58):
Thank you, doctor John Pleasure, wishing you all the best.
You're doing great work.
Speaker 1 (43:06):
I'm so glad Doctor Yetunde was able to join me
for this conversation to learn more about her and her work.
Be sure to visit the show notes at Therapy for
Blackgirls dot com slash Session three eighty nine, and don't
forget to text this episode to two of your girls
right now and tell them to check it out. If
you're looking for a therapist in your area, visit our
therapist directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory.
(43:30):
And if you want to continue digging into this topic
or just be in community with other sisters, come on
over and join us in the Sister Circle. It's our
cozy corner of the Internet designed just for black women.
You can join us at community dot Therapy for Blackgirls
dot com. This episode was produced by Alise Ellens, Zaria Taylor,
and Tyree Rush. Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank
(43:52):
y'all so much for joining me again this week. I
look forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon.
Take good care
Speaker 2 (44:01):
The best pench for pot Wood
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