February 25, 2025 • 46 mins
Kaleigh Fratkin and the Packers go way back. The story starts in high school, where Madison and Kaleigh threw hits on the ice and butted heads off of it. Later, fate brought Kaleigh and Anya together as college roommates in Boston, cementing them as lifelong friends. Now that Madison and Anya are married and all three have endured the highs and lows of storied hockey careers, they’re closer than ever. In this episode, Kaleigh reminisces on that history, from being a founding member of the PHF, to navigating the waves of changing leagues, to proving herself as a physical powerhouse and impactful leader on the Boston Pride and Fleet. This year is a little different for Kaleigh because she’s not playing, but there’s a good reason for that. Listen to find out what her next chapter holds.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hey everyone, I'm Madison Packer. I'm a recently retired pro
hockey vet, a founding member of the National Women's Hockey League,
a pillar in the PHF, and an inaugural member of
the PWHL Sirens.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
And I'm Any Packer, also a former pro hockey player,
also founding member of the National Women's Hockey League. But
today I'm a full Madison Packer.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Stan Anya and I met through hockey, then we got married,
and now we're moms to two awesome toddlers, ages two
and four.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
And on our new podcast, These Packs Puck, we're opening
up about the chaos of our daily lives, between the
juggle of being athletes, raising children and all the messiness
in between.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Hey Anya, Hey pack you ready to get into it today?
Speaker 2 (00:44):
You know today I feel better than ever to get
into it.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
All right, let's talk some hockey.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Hockey hot take.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
So my hot take for today is that that there
needs to be further clarification in the PWHL surrounding body
checking and body contact. And I think that that's hugely important.
So when we were up in Toronto for preseason mini camp,
they actually did a phenomenal job of there was this
(01:18):
mini orientation. It was very quick, it was concise, it
was to the point, it was very educational and informative
about the business and et cetera. Of topic that we
talked about was how to protect yourself.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
I thought it was hugely.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
Valuable and important. Yep, and we learned a lot. You know,
how to receive a hit, how to protect your teammates,
how to protect yourself. What hits are you know allowed,
what hits aren't allowed. But then you watch the games
and it's like, what you don't get me wrong? Body
contact is good and I think it's making the game
more entertaining in things, but there needs to be more
(01:50):
consistency amongst the officials and more clarification to the players.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
There have been how many egregious hits from my gosh,
there's been some crazy ones, and I won't lie, like
I think part of the issue is that it's still foreign,
even though it's now in year two of being able
to body check. Because as people get more emboldenedto body check,
because we're going to introduce that into the women's game,
we're now taking liberties to just hit each other flagrantly,
(02:15):
and I think that like it needs to be introduced
at a foundational level, so that you're learning how to hit,
receive a hit, not do the like numbers three feet
from the boards and almost murder somebody style hit. But
I will agree I love hitting. I absolutely am one
hundred percent for introducing hitting in the women's game because
it's hockey, and so much of us grew up playing
(02:36):
boys hockey that like, we already were hitting. But now
we have players that have just played girls hockey that
have never hit before and don't know how lethal a
dangerous hit can truly be.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
And an equally important piece to the equation is protecting yourself, right,
Like I got a penalty up in Toronto for a
body check.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
It was a really hard hit. It was a clean
body check.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
Like the RAF was like, you can't, You're not allowed
to hit, and I'm like, well, yeah we are, yeah,
and you go, I can look at it. I annihilated
the player. But like the motion of going to hit was,
I went to make the hit when she still had
the puck. Yeah, no hit was received after she had
the puck. But I'm just saying that's confusing to players.
Clean hit though, Yeah it's a clean hit.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
We call that.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Sometimes we don't call it other times. And the point
of allowing us to body check right is to try
and make a play on the puck. We're not just
out there trying to kill each other. That's not productive.
That should be the point of body checking in entirety.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
But if you're going to make.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
A play on someone with the puck and then they
move the puck right before you hit them, we can't
penalize players for that, no finish or hit. And then
you got people who are getting hurt because they're trying
to get out of the way and knees are hitting knees.
We saw that with Aleena Mueller. I mean, you have
to protect players like Alena Mueller. We should protect all players.
But when you have a player like that who doesn't
lay hits like that, who's making a skill play in
(03:47):
the middle of the ice and is not expecting to
get hit, probably at all.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
But we're allowed to hit it.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Open ice now, So that lesson needs to be learned,
but not to the head.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Because Alena Mueller is in her second year. She just
came from NC double as where there was no oh hitting.
She had one year of flux where she's learning it
and then she gets crushed open ice.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
This is not picking apart players who have made plays
that are suspect, because I'm not claiming that there's intent
to injure, et cetera.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
I mean, after the fact they did look at it
and give her a two game suspension, but in the moment, yeah,
And I think.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
That that's just the point is that, like, we have
to get closer to getting those calls right. It happens
at every level in the NHL as well. But when
you can get that call right in the moment, then
there's no gray area on the ice for players. No
one feels like, well, what's allowed what isn't because it
was a pretty bad hit and like refs miss things.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
For sure.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
I think that those officials are great. Kelly Cook was
one of them. You know, she's been roughing for a
long time. I think again, when you watch the video,
like it looked like there was maybe an awkward stick
play and like some confusion. But I just think that
they need to try and get those kinds of hits
out the door immediately so there doesn't continue to be
a problem because we've seen a few hits like that
and you just don't want to see anyone get hurt
(04:59):
on the necessarily.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
One thousand percent. The fact that nobody jumped on the
ice to start like counter physicality, That's where my brain
goes is like sure refs Shore Review. Sure it got
amended at the end, But the fact that nobody put
hands on that player after one of their teammates was
knocked out like that is a little crazy to me.
(05:21):
I'm not gonna lie.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Well, and I think you have to consider like the
whole picture of it, right. I'm not saying that women
should start going out there and beating the shit out
of each other like it is an entertainment.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
Factor for sure.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
When you look on the men's side, someone hits Patty
Kane or Sid Crosby or you name them, anyone gets
hit like that and everyone on the ice is coming together.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
Yeah, I mean even just to do like the shovy,
the you know, the like circular shove and yell at
each other thing.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
There's just so much gray, are you right now? Around
the rules and around all I mean, because if you
fight and like different refts will interpret fighting as different things.
That's a game misconduct, right, So look at who's she's
on the first line, their top DP pairs out there
like you just have to look at things differently when
the consequence then becomes Okay, well, do we really want
to lose one of our best, Like, yeah, the answer
(06:07):
is yes.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Someone should have stood up for Muler. Absolutely, the answer
at the end of the day is yes. I think
one of the players on the ice like gave her
a shove ten seconds past until that shove occurred. And
I'm not saying fight to your point, I'm not advocating
for that, but at least get up in her kitchen, like,
talk a little shit a little bit. Yeah, please.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
I think it's just like, as as the hitting continues
to become more norm people are going to start to
figure out how you protect the players you need to protect,
and how you build a roster to have someone that
can take care of those things when they happen. But
it's just it's hard because then you lose a player
for a game. It doesn't hurt to get punched in
the face of the helmet on. You're not going to
counter lay a hit to the head. It's just hard
(06:50):
because we're allowing hitting, we're allowing a more physical game.
But when people take liberties like that, the consequence in
the moment of the game needs to be immediate and
needs to be severe, or you need to allow people
to get their ass kicked. And I think that makes
today's interview so fitting because we had a chance to
talk with one of the probably most physical players in
(07:12):
the women's game.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
That is true, We absolutely did. We're going to start
by giving a little check in, though, pack tell me
how you're feeling. I like, I like when you agree.
So I'm already in a good headspace. But where are
you at? Give me your one to one hundred.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
I was a little bit higher until you talk to
me like you just did. Now I'm at like a
eighty three, maybe probably in eighty three. I got to
sleep in. Actually, no, eighty seven.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
You got five points for sleeping four points for sleeping in.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Oh no, I was going to say I got to
sleep in today. Whalen came into our room for a
midnight cuddle.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
That was very sweet. So last night you weren't here,
you went out and met up with friends. And then
Whyalan said to me, I will cuddle with you because
mom's gone. But when she's back, you send her in.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
I was like, Okay, you send that woman, you send
her in.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
I was like, oh, so at midnight he wakes up
and you were snoozing, and so he came in and
got a little cuddle, which was actually very cute.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
I cuddled him when I got home, and I woke
him up.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
To do it.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
I didn't ask you to credit, didn't I. Yeah, I'm
all about the credit though, So I feel good. I
know you didn't ask, but I'll tell you how I'm feeling.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
You're still talking about me. How are you doing?
Speaker 2 (08:21):
I'm fabulous. I have had a very stressful week at work, actually,
but all that considered, I feel great. I'm gonna give
myself a solid seventy five. I'd like to work out today,
which I haven't done in the past four days, so
if I can get that, I'll be like, I'm going
to meet you at eighty seven. But right now. You
didn't work out yesterday. No, you just took the trash
(08:41):
cans out, and so I thought you did. I worked
out my stress of being on the phone recognizing word
triple paying for the Disney Plus bundle, and that was
a feverish workout via typing to nine different chatbots that
would not help me. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Wild PSA to all moms out there, check your subscriptions.
We've been paying thousand thousands.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
We should actually own Disney Plus now, So we.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
Were paying for that ESPN Hulu Disney bundle three times
for four years.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
I think it truly was like thirty five hundred bucks.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Well, it sounds like your spouse is technologically challenged.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
I blame everything on you, but I do love you anyways.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Yeah, so all right, Well it sounds like we're in
a good spot. We're going to an event together tonight.
We've got a babysitter, that's and they continue to be
a good day.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Yes, and I have no hair straightener or curling iron
because both of those two things have been lost, and
you have a buzz cut, so we do not know
where those have gone to, but still we proceed. They're
in Boston. They're in Boston. Speaking of Boston, I am
so excited to get into our interview with our next guest.
It is with my favorite person in the world. I've
said that about a bunch of our interviewers, but this
(09:47):
time I actually mean it. Kayleie Frakinlee, Babe, you are
my second soulmate. I always tell Kealo's that she's my
number one soulmate. I Sometimes your soulmates are your friends,
and that's who this person is. She is a former
Pride defender for the Boston Pride. She played for Peter
Michell Boston last year. She was my college roommate at
(10:07):
Boston University, a Clarkson Cup winner and Isabelle Cup winner,
a defender of the Year, an all around incredible person,
and an interesting story as to why she's not playing
this year. So let's get into it. Hey, kales Hi,
(10:32):
it's me Anya in Madison's here as well. I'm excited
to welcome Kaylee Frakin. Lee. Is it Leef? Where's it at? Legally?
Speaker 3 (10:41):
Legally it's Lee by just in the hockey world. Yeah,
it's just.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
Lee, Kaylee Quinn Lee.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
Yeah, it's a little weird.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
I'm obsessed with that, all right. So Kaylie Quinn Lee here,
who is actually formerly Kaylee Fraken, my longtime best friend,
college roommate Limt for a minute and a half, Maddie's
arch nemesis, the true best friend of this entire marriage.
So we're excited to have you.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
I'm so excited to be here.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
So I've known Freddy the longest. I met Freddie when
we were sixteen, we played together on Little Caesars. Freddy
lived with me, my Jewish friend, went to a Catholic
high school for a minute, and then you moved back
to Vancouver went to BEU. But when you were living
with me, we both were like angsty, cocky teenagers who
(11:28):
like had to be the best at everything that we did,
and we did not get along at all. So fast forward,
you are at BU Anya. Now you tell how you
come into the story.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Okay, So Kaylee was my college roommate and we were
both on BU. Our freshman year at BU, we played
Wisconsin in the National Championship, and Kaylee had already given
me the rundown of like who we hate on Wisconsin?
You were on the list, Like you were firmly on
that list. And Kaylee and I go through four years
of being college roommates, best friends. We go on to
play in the pros together. We literally started and ended
(11:59):
every new adventure in lockstep together. So when I started
dating you, I find out, well, yes, I was supposed
to hate you. And I called Kales and she's in
the grocery store and she just goes, I'm listening. I
went on a date. It's someone you know. She was like, okay,
like I know she knows, like she's pissed. I'm like,
(12:19):
it's Madison Packers. She was like, uh.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
Okay, okay, yes, And on my side of things, I
very much was taken aback. But You're like, I know,
I know a long time has passed. I was like, adya,
it's been like fifteen years. I really don't care. I
know at that point it's like, yeah, maybe when we
were fifteen, but like we're like at her twenties now,
like who cares. I go, that's great. How was it
(12:45):
a He's like asking the Godfather's permission? Full circle.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
Then you're in our wedding. My mom and I still
joke about it. She's like, I just can't believe that
Anya and Kaylee are best friends.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
It was the most bizarre like sequence of events of
like the world being way too small, especially in the
sports world, you know.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
And then we just went on to have like we've
had like a fun back and forth, like funny banter
on the ice, except for there was one time something
happened and I like cross checked you really hard. You
remember that, yes, and You're like, are you fucking kidding me?
Like are you kidding me right now, And I was like, yeah,
that was probably a little bit much. I told Anya
after the game. I was like, she's so sensitive. She
was like, pack that was unnecessary.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Yeah, she was like, I can't believe it. I'm like, babe,
I think you've Like, first of all, I think you
heard her, but that was cheap, Like that's you both
do the same thing, though you both will get like
into it, either with each other or other people. Like
you both have actually asked me to mediate other people
fight to you, bick. Was that no ridiculous?
Speaker 3 (13:40):
I'm like, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
I feel like you kind of hit that girl from
behind because Kales came to be you from playing basically
like men's juniors, Like she's full hitting, her teammates are
going to the NHL. She's coming to be you. Literally
the first time we ever stepped on the ice, we
were playing like some Canadian team and they came down
and be used to bring down a Canadian team every year,
(14:02):
first scrimmage of the year and we'd sho lack him.
Kal's killed this kid, I swear. The poor girl. She
skates up to the bench, she looks at me, she goes,
what a bullshit call. It's like, I think that that
kid's in a stretcher.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
Well, I'm sorry, but in my defense, she was not
looking with her head up. She was looking behind and
she got a suicide pass.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
So it was like, gotta have to gotta have to
blow this poor kid up. And then the ref looked
at us and was like, we don't hit in this hockey.
Like at the time, hitting wasn't allowed anywhere and there
was no pro league that allowed hitting. Kaylee was just
full blown, open, nice hitting people our entire freshman year.
It was fun.
Speaker 3 (14:42):
Spent a lot of time and spent a lot of
time in the box, but it was fun.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
I love that. So then we went from college to
the pros. So back in the day, the NWHL starts
and Kaylee gets this invite to an event in Manhattan
and she calls me and goes, let's go, like I'm
going down to the city, come with me. We were
up in Boston, so we get on like a megabus
and we'd go down to Manhattan for this launch of
(15:06):
a women's pro league. And again like you, babe, Kales
is my much better than me at hockey friend. And
I get to be like the second one that hangs
out in the much better than hockey world, and she goes,
I know the GM, I have a contract. I'm gonna play.
You gotta come. So we started an event, then we
go to tryouts, we get an apartment, we do the
(15:27):
whole thing. I make the teams a practice player. We're
in the first year of the pros and so are
you for New York at the time, and we're all
playing in this new league with all this hype, all
this fun. We're making enough money to kind of live.
So Kalos talk to us about like that whirlwind starting
women's pro hockey, kind of like how that was.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
Yeah, it was such an interesting time because coming out
of school, I just played a year in the CWHL.
We had just won the Clarkson Cops. So I played
for the Boston Blades and then I was with the
national team still, but I was always in and out
of that program for like a very long time, and
I had just been released from the team. It was like,
just won the Clarkson Cup. I was on a high
(16:09):
of winning what was like the championship at the time,
and then getting a call from the national team being like, yeah,
you're no longer with our program, getting the snips, and
then I was kind of like, oh, okay, I guess
my career is over at twenty two years old. It
just kind of smacks in the face and you don't
really know what to do. I mean, I vividly remember
(16:31):
talking to my dad on the phone bawling, being like,
my life is over.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
This is like the end of my life.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
I have nothing else to look forward to. And then
it was like the weirdest eerie thing getting that email
from Danny Ryland, who I didn't even know who Danny
was at the time, but I guess I played her
maybe my freshman year at Northeastern and seeing that email
and it was like, hey, we're starting this women's pro
league and I still have this email to the day.
I remember like it was this crazy situation where we
ended up taking a chance at it. It was like
(16:58):
women's pro hockey. It was like, I mean, nothing could
be worse than paying to play more or less in
the CWHL. So I was like, you know, what could
be kind of better than you know, actually making some
money playing And that was really just like a crazy
time of I remember getting the first paycheck in the
NWHL and us living in Pony Avenue where what we
(17:18):
called it Pony Avenue in Norwalk, Connecticut, and living with
Chelsea Leyden and Cheyenne dark Angela. There was a house
of us of four and you know, we're making met
ends meet. We were coaching on the side, we were
doing private lessons. We were kind of just like making
it work and living this life of what we thought
was the dream. At the time, it was like, we're
playing hockey professionally, We're getting paid to do it. And
(17:39):
I was in a situation where I'm Canadian too, so
I had a visa to play in America and I was,
you know, living out this professional hockey dream. So I
went from thinking that everything and anything was all about
the Olympics to realizing a whole new path of purpose
and what I wanted to do in women's pro hockey
and what I felt women's pro hockey could be and
(18:01):
should be. And so I just took a leap of faith,
and thankfully you joined me.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
I got you to leave.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
Massachusetts and come with me, which was crazy because I
don't think I would have been able to do it
without you too, So honestly, it was fun to do
it together.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
For sure, it was.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
Fun to do it together, and Mattie you lived a
similar life. You know. It was kind of like that
post national team. I'll call it a hangover, right, because
like it is depressing, it is hard.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
Yeah, I mean I think that like to hear this point,
we were making money, but we were like existing, right,
you know what I mean, Like we weren't like we.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
Weren't saving anything.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
Also that, yeah, we all had other jobs and so
and I think that participating in that and working alongside
those people, you recognize that everyone is doing it for
something other than themselves, like you have to be right
and then just that bond honestly with both of you,
and there was you know, like Cheyenne and Dempsey and
a few other people like the players that just kept
doing it and can just kept plugging along and you
(18:54):
just continue to grow this like inherent respect for one
another in what we're trying to do.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
And I think we've talked about it on you. I
don't know Freddy and I've ever talked about it.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
But like you do not get nearly enough credit or
as much credit as you deserve for the work that
you did in growing the game. Like my face was
out there a lot with the PHF and I got
a lot of attention, but there was nothing that I
did that you didn't. When that whole thing went down
season five and a bunch of players left to form
the PWHPA, it was me, you and Dempsey that were like, Okay,
(19:24):
we'll stay and we'll help. And like we because we
believed in Anya and we believed in what the league
was trying to do. You have done so much for
the game and for women's hockey specifically, and you don't
get nearly enough credit for it.
Speaker 3 (19:36):
That's very nice.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
Everybody. We're going to cut that, we're going to print it,
We're going to save it. No, I think that's a
good point. I mean, I always felt like there was
a certain amount of the three of us versus in
a lot of capacities. And when I was the head
of the Players Association, Kaylee was always on the Players Association.
And I never permitted Madison to join the Players Association
because we couldn't stay in that level of fighting in
(19:59):
our own PA. But she was always, like I joke like,
she was always like my sounding board. When I got
home we'd go to the PA meetings. Kels would be
like my Double's partner there, sometimes like major pushing back,
sometimes major supporting my thoughts, and I always operated with
I don't know best, and if everyone around me can
get a little bit better at knowing XYZ thing, then
we can all pool our knowledge and get better. But
(20:21):
I always felt like the person that fielded so much
extra work was you, whether it was like the visa
stuff or you know, shepherding new players or both of
you guys calling people and just talking about what the
league was and what it wasn't and being honest, it
isn't perfect, but it's getting there. And so like that
(20:42):
season five time was really foundational, not just for the league,
but it was foundational for the three of us because
we had to just click in or click out, like
we had to figure out which we were going to be.
So what was the reason that you clicked in?
Speaker 3 (20:57):
I remember, you know, kind of sitting there and just
being very confused as to why there needed to be
this whole restart because we had been witnessing and living
it and breathing it every single day for the last
four years and seeing the strides that were being made
and seeing the little strides like, yes, to your point,
nothing's perfect. And still to this day it's not perfect,
(21:19):
but there was growth that was being had in the
right ways, and for me, when we got to that influx,
I just says, it makes no sense to restart. There
was some like catch going on in the league. There
was some good visibility. There was like some traction, and
I was like, why are we going to now step
away and boycott and go a different path when there
(21:42):
was a lot still to be had And I feel
like playing was going to keep that going. Playing in
the league where you had twenty four game seasons, I
wanted to play, and I was in a prime of
my career or getting into that place where I felt
could have been the prime. So I felt like playing
was the right way to go. And that just was
my viewpoint. I know that there was a lot of
other players that felt the same way. They didn't want
(22:02):
to sit out. They didn't think that not being in
front of the fans, not growing the community, not growing
the fan base. Where we had these teams, we had
these logos, you know, we had these franchises that we
had like building in momentum where butts were starting to
come into seats, and for me, going the other direction
just didn't make sense logically, and I remember sitting down
(22:23):
with my oldest brother Jesse, who was a huge sounding board.
I just remember being like, should I be doing this?
Should I not be doing it?
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Now?
Speaker 3 (22:30):
I feel like I'm a lone, you know, soldier or yeah,
one of the few that would be taking a stance
against you know, a large group of people. You know,
it's not an easy thing to do, and it takes
a lot of strength, and it takes a lot of
courage to just say like, I think differently, and while
others probably do feel the same, they may not have
the strength to speak out. And I felt like because
(22:52):
of the position and just the tenure that I was in,
that I felt okay to take a stance. But I
knew that there was a lot of people that weren't
willing to put their neck out on the line, because
you are putting your name out there to be subject
to god knows what, quite honestly, And I felt no ties,
you know, holding you back to a national team, which
I know there was a lot of players that had
(23:12):
ties to national teams that felt like if they step
outside the line, like they might get hindered in any way.
So I felt like a free bird in that instance
where I was like, I'm following my heart. I'm going
to do what I think is right, and I have
no problem if you know, that's subject to who knows
what down the line, because I think this is right
for the sport. I don't know if any other player
(23:33):
is going to join, but like sure enough, it was
that year where like all these people came.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
Out of the woodwork.
Speaker 3 (23:38):
I mean there were so many women that joined the
league that like hadn't played hockey in like a while.
They kept everything afloat, and I remember like the first
meeting that we had in Boston. This was like people
from all different paths of playing, and you knew that
everyone was there for a bigger cause and everyone was
like all in it just to keep the league going,
(24:00):
to keep the sport going. In it was like crazy feeling.
It's so even hard to describe because it was just
one of those things where we had to be there
and pack like you definitely obviously know, and I mean
odds you know in that capacity too. It's just like
this feeling that you're like, holy crap, we're here for
something else, and we're here for something bigger, and it
was just like such a monumental I think year in
movement for women's hockey.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
I distinctly remember coming home from the first practice that season,
and the practice was really.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
Far away, and so it was like a long drive home.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
I'd showered at the rink, but I got home and
I was like, I said, TONI, I was like, I'm
just gonna I just need to take a shower. And
I went upstairs and I literally just sat on the
bench in our shower and cried. And I remember, on
do you think came in the bathroom, You're like, are
you okay? And I was like no, like like I
don't know what I've like, I don't know if this
was the right thing. Like it was scary because like
to your point, you spent all this time building something
that is just starting to get traction, and then most
(24:51):
of the best players, I guess I would say, are like, nope,
we're out. And there's a lot of those players have
a lot of power in the world of hockey, right,
and so we were like, well, what do we do?
Do I really want to stand up against all these
big names who have more poll who have more this,
or again, to your point, like when you start to
think about Okay, what makes most sense. We were like,
we're making strides. We have people that are making money. Yeah,
(25:13):
to this day, I firmly believe that if we had
just everyone had just locked out in the NWHL PHF
had just folded and we all went to the ped up,
we wouldn't be where we are today because it would
have just been a new variation of the same thing.
And I strongly believe that a part of the appeal
to the you know, the new ownership group and why
the league was acquired, et cetera, because there was value
(25:34):
in it, because someone had done a lot of the
heavy lifting and shown what works what doesn't. There's infrastructure.
Yet did they come in and blow everything up?
Speaker 2 (25:41):
Sure? Perhaps by design.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
But like a lot of that is the bones of
what we all know and built. That's not a shot
at anybody, that's just saying I strongly believe that if
both had not existed at the same time, we would
not be where we are today. And I think that
that is lost on so many people to this day.
None of those women will ever get credit for what
they did, and without any of those players, we wouldn't
(26:04):
be here.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
So important to note that both of you at the
top were fighting for this change specifically, but year over
year for those those years we call it season five, six,
seven eight, and then moving forward it was going to
be this way. But then the league was acquired, the
minimum salary per team raised by over one hundred percent
year over year. It was clear, at least when I
(26:27):
was the head of Player Association, which was all but
the last two years, that what our goal was was
to make it equitable for everyone in the league. That
was an equal distribution of funds that were distributed to players,
that was an increase in minimum wage year over year
to make it as close to liverpowl as possible. And
then in the final year that then didn't occur, but
you guys were coming back together again to be on
(26:49):
the Riveters. And that Riveters team was very interesting because
there was no player making less than fifty thousand dollars
and that was a commitment by Madison ew at the
time as the captain, but everyone at the top saying
we won't take those one hundred and fifty thousand dollars
contracts annually because it needs to be equitable at the bottom.
It was interesting because with all the power you both
fought so hard for equity across the league, and I
(27:11):
thought that that was really important. And again, like when
we talked about your career, pack, it always was the
not hockey things, Like I could run both of your
stats and show you both being incredible hockey players, but
the non hockey things that you did in sport were
always so interesting to me and always the reason that
I revere you both as my two favorite people in
the world. So let's put that in the past now
(27:51):
talking about your first Isabelle Cup kaals because that was
after season five. I mean that was after like some
of the dramas, but you played for the Boston Pride.
You then worked the ranks to become the assistant captain
of the Boston Pride, and you got the You win
the isabel Cup to Flate Gate. Jillian Dempsey receives the
cup and the first person that lifts it is you.
(28:12):
What does that moment mean to you?
Speaker 3 (28:15):
I mean, that was really such a cool moment. Like
you know, it was just a long season in general,
right for how it kind of played out to play
that final Isabelle Cup game the year before we were
cut short because of COVID after having like a record
season of going you know, twenty three and one, which
was insane, right, and then the beginnings of COVID we
couldn't even play the final Isabelle Cup game, and then
(28:36):
the next year having to come back after Lake Placid
and playing that game and playing in front of no fans.
So it was just like the most bizarre kind of
two seasons where we had a lot of the same players,
and I'd spent now a number of years with Demps
and her McKenna and I in the leadership group, just
spent a ton of time just really fighting for everything
(28:58):
for our players, which like at oftentimes you really felt
like you were kind of going head to head and
even Dempson I would go head to head in moments,
and just a crazy two years. And I just remember
her before going into that final game saying to me like, hey, Freddy,
like if we win, you know that cup is coming
to you right away. And I just like didn't think
about it in this whole time, but obviously I knew
(29:21):
I had played a very long time in the league
and I had not had the chance of winning a cup.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (29:25):
I left the Riveters, you know, and they won the
Cup the next year. I left, you know, left Connecticut
and then go to the Ribs. It's like a left
they won. I'm like, oh my god, am I ever
gonna win? The last time I won was I guess
twenty fifteen the Clarkson Cup. But I was like, am
I gonna win? And she was like, I'm gonna give
you this cup. Sure enough, she like grabs a cup
and gives it to me, and I was like, oh wow,
this is what they is what keels like? It's kind
(29:48):
of crazy, No, but it was really cool. I mean
the fact that it was kind of in the situation
and setting that it was. It was nice coming from
someone that you went through the trenches with, you know,
very similarly had a long history with, had gone through
kind of every thing that we had gone through. It
was just was something that was very selfless and it
just I think is a testament to Demps and who
she has as a person and her character.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
So I'm not going to comment because my mom told me,
if you don't have anything nice to say, say nothing
at all.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
That was also the time where Boston was privately owned,
so you guys were able to fight and drive like
real change but also like individual change.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
Well they had an unlimited budget.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
That's amazing. I mean like that.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Yeah, so I was so mad. Reagan Carrie wanted to
kill me. At the end of that, I think I
was like emailing her weekly.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
I was like, Boston's up to it again. They're cheating again.
I have proof. I just think, like, when we can
find super rich people that want to sit and say,
look at what my team has, it's better than yours,
that's the best case scenario. There was a game where
Boston came to play the Riveters. I was a GM
at the time, and I'm emailing the Boston GM all
the recommendations around the hotel, around the rink, and she goes, no, no,
(30:55):
don't need those. I'm like, okay, sorry, I didn't know
you already found one. We'll be staying in Times Square
to celebrate the holidays as a team. I'm like, nice,
I would love that budget. I would love to be
able to put my team up in Times Square and
then drive a coach bus to Jersey for the game,
but like do some big holiday dinner and celebrate. That's awesome.
(31:17):
I mean, like that is the best case scenario. Is
getting people that individually have the means to provide more
for the athletes. That's like what's going on in the
New York Liberty and it's an incredible environment for the
fans and for the players alike. And that's what you
guys had cultivated, an incredible fan base. So then you
take that same fan base. You're now the Boston Fleet,
(31:40):
but at the time you were just Boston in the PWHL.
How much of that fan base followed you to Songis Arena.
How much did you feel that fan base and how
much did you when you signed that contract feel maybe
the burden to bring that fan base with you.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
Yeah, our first game at Songis, I mean there was
more pride jerseys than anything. There was pride everywhere you went.
When it came out for warm up, you would see
all kinds of and all players. It was like you
would see twenty one Christina Putina, who had played for
Boston for about four or five seasons, and you saw
her jersey everywhere. You didn't see Hillary Knights jersey. You
saw Putina everywhere. It was hilarious. You know, I think
(32:18):
it was just it's hilarious because it was more just
like a testament to you know, all the you know,
jerseys and just like that fan base that we had
built was still going to support women's hockey regardless of
what the team name was going to be. And just
like when you did autograph signings and you were out
in the community, everyone would be like, oh my god,
I remember you from the Boston Pride or you know
I used to come to all these Pride games. You know,
how was so and so doing you know what is
(32:40):
this player up to? Oh I saw Gillian Dempseeason Montreal,
And it was just really cool to see how many
people actually had been following us for that long. I
remember actually going out to a clinic in wallfam a
couple of the dad coaches had come up. They were like,
you know, I remember, you know, watching season six with
the Pride, and I remember this game we came out
here with my daughter, and so it was just like
(33:01):
conversations like that, I think just really showed how many
people really did support our team in the community. And
it didn't matter that it was going to be a
new league, didn't matter that it was a new team name,
didn't matter if it was in Songist rather than being
at Warrior. They were still going to come out and
support And now just seeing it kind of grow and
build built from there. Now you're obviously seeing Fleet jerseys everywhere,
which is really cool.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
We had different reactions because when I saw all the
Riveters jerseys in the stands, I started crying.
Speaker 3 (33:28):
Very You're very sensitive.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
And then I got asked a question about it after
the game and I was like, I started crying again.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
I was like, it was good to see. Can't say
anything more.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
Balling, but yeah, it's it was. I was bawling. So
I want to talk about this a little bit. Back up,
a tiny bit before you joined the Boston Fleet. You
and I trained together all summer that off season and
like in the gym at five thirty am every day,
five days a week, all summer long up into the
which was even longer because I had the draft and
then the season didn't start till like November or whatever
it was. But you go undrafted alongside me, and then
(34:01):
it's like, WHOA, what's happening. Then there was a couple
of days whatever and you ended up signing with Boston, right,
But what was that like for you? Because like for me,
during that process, it was like, okay, obviously a little
bit uncomfortable and not knowing what was going to happen.
Like I wasn't signed, I was undrafted and then had
to go to camp to make the team. So a
little bit different situations. But then, like we've just talked about,
(34:22):
you and I played in a league. You played for
a couple of different teams. I played for the same one,
but you have this like emotional connection, right, and then
we're just supposed to turn it off and all of
a sudden jump into this new thing, and there's no
real time or any consideration for the fact that like
these players might be going through something deeper, like a
grief and loss and then like all these other things, right,
(34:43):
and so the players from the PWHPA, I think it
felt more like a quote unquote win for them, right,
because now it's the p DUB is the new league,
And it just didn't feel like this coming together of
two things. It felt kind of like one side lost,
And to me, that's how it felt. And then we
all come together and it's like, well, how do we
navigate this new thing? Like how was that for you
mentally and emotionally going into that environment, Like did you
(35:04):
experience any of that also or were you just able
to kind of jump into it anew and start fresh.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
No, it was.
Speaker 3 (35:10):
Weird for sure. I remember being in in trading camp
and had been doing some community outreach stuff, like like
I was saying, going to different clinics or going to
different sporting events, like whatever it may be, and it
was weird to see different colors that weren't black and yellow.
I spent six seasons in Boston, so like that was
(35:31):
home for me. You know, golden black or yellow and
black were the colors, and the Boston Pride logo, even
though it changed over time, like that logo was very
distinct and prominent in Boston. So it was weird for
me to now see these green colors and show up
to the rink and it's all like different logos and
all these different things, and just seeing the word PWHL
(35:51):
Boston out in the community or going to like different
sporting events where we'd be recognized at like a Revolution
game and they'd be talking about PBHL Boston, and I'm like,
we just had so much history with the Boston Pride
of winning in the city, like having banners at Logan Airport,
where you're like, does that just all get erased? Does
no one now want to talk about the fact that
(36:12):
women's hockey has existed in the city for the last
nine years, even with the Blades before that, and you're
kind of like, no one wants to talk about it.
No one wants to say that, you know, this is
rich history for women's hockey and this is just you know,
now another team in another league. Like I maybe compartmentalized
my emotions a little bit differently than you, And for me,
(36:32):
I was able to kind of compartmentalize it and just
be like, you know what, like I'm here. I still
got to like prove myself. I went undrafted to your point,
you know, I signed as like a seventh defenseman on
that team. So I had a lot to prove, and
I think I was laser focused on this whole. Like
you know, I'd done a lot in the PHF and
I had built a resume that I thought would have
(36:53):
put me on a depth chart heart higher than what
it was. Truthfully, you did, and you did and it didn't,
you know, but like you know it and it didn't
go that way. So like for me, I kind of
was like I had this mission of yes, everything going
on in the greater of the sport and everything from
the days of us growing what we did. I kind
of was like I had to park that a little
(37:13):
bit and just be like, emotionally, I got to check
that aside and I got to focus on myself right now,
and my focus is like I got to prove all
of these people wrong. And so there was just like
for me this mission of like I want to prove
it to myself that I'm capable of doing this, and
that just because I wasn't on any of these teams
or no one like had recognized me for all this time,
doesn't mean that I wasn't capable of being there. So
(37:35):
while I was still exactly like you grieving this whole
you know, lost stuff.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
Yeah, well spoiler alert, you go from undrafted to scoring
in overtime when Peter Bchel Boston needs a win to
make it into playoffs. And I remember that goal, but
I loved that moment because I was like, that's a
fraddy goal, like that goal in Clade, which when you
(38:01):
need it for title town like all that. As a
Bostonian who never actually really played in Boston, I just
felt so like soothed by that goal in that moment.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
I think I tweeted Kaylee f and frakin ladies and gentlemen,
which might actually be the only time.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
She's ever been supportive of you publicly. But now we
start the season, the Boston Fleet is playing games and
you're not there. I mean, we know why, but I
feel like the people need to know why.
Speaker 3 (38:28):
So I'm not playing this season because I am pregnant.
Speaker 2 (38:34):
And not just pregnant with a baby, No, I'm having twins.
God bless the most Kaylee fracking thing in the world
is not only are you're having a baby, you're having
two babies at once.
Speaker 3 (38:45):
That's exactly what my long time friend you obviously know,
Anna was telling her the other day and she goes,
of course, that's such a Kaylee bracket thing. You can't
just have a baby. You have to have to like,
why can't it just be a normal situation where.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
So you and Anya went to lunch one day and
then Anya came home and I was like, oh, how
was it, And normally she like tells me what you
guys talked about and whatever, and she was just kind
of weird and I was like, that was weird. And
then fast forward a couple of weeks, you and your husband,
Henry are coming over for dinner and she's like, I
have to tell you something, and I was like what.
She goes, Katie's pregnant, and I was like, oh my god.
She was with twins, and I was like, oh my god,
(39:22):
are they okay? And she was I literally said the
same thing. And then she told me about your lunch
when you guys went, and she was like, I literally said,
are you okay?
Speaker 2 (39:28):
And then we both just cried. Yeah. So we sat
down for coffee and she waits the entire time, We're
like talking about nonsense. I was probably venting about you
was like training camp. So I was alone at the
house like just like this whole thing. And then we're
going that's like, hug goodbye. And I had a meeting
like subsequently, like fifteen minutes later, and she was like,
by the way, I asked you to come for coffee
(39:49):
because I had to tell you something. And I was like, oh, great,
time to tell me. At the end of coffee, she's like,
I'm pregnant. So we're like jumping up and down and
she's like with twins, and I just immediately was like, wait,
what what are you all right? She was like no,
I'm not stressed.
Speaker 3 (40:06):
Yeah, And then we just bald, I'm stressed.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
I'm also stressed. I'm freaking out. So you're pregnant with twins,
and you're now probably less freaking out than you were originally.
But tell us about it. Tell us about being pregnant
with twins. I've never done that.
Speaker 3 (40:21):
It was very overwhelming at first. I think how we
found out we were having twins as well was its
own level of overwhelmingness. You know, we thought something was wrong.
We had gone in for an ultrasound, and the ultrasound
tech was like, congratulations. My husband and I are thinking
it's gonna be like the worst news you know, that
you could possibly have, and it was the best news.
(40:41):
So we were we were definitely blessed and thankful of that.
But you know, they're like, you're having twins, and they
like show us baby A and baby B, and you're.
Speaker 4 (40:48):
Like, oh my god, are you sure. I was like,
I was like, where are they gonna fit? Like how
is this gonna work? I was like, I'm gonna be
the largest human on the surface of this earth. So
so yeah, just very overwhelming at first. I think like
going down the rabbit hole of thinking about two of
everything at once is.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
A lot so stressed for you. I mean, like I'm
excited for you, but I just think about, like now
my Instagram feed is just everything twins because it obviously
listens to me, and I watch people that have twins.
Obviously people do it all the time and they navigate
life normally. But I'm like, oh my.
Speaker 3 (41:23):
Well, the funniest thing is is I went down this
rabbit hole of you know, being on TikTok and same
thing Instagram reels and you find like the community of
people that are having twins or have twins. And this
one woman on Instagram she has a toddler and then
she has twins, and just seeing the like nursing pillows
where it's like double the nursing, you know, like two
(41:43):
at once, and she's like, you know, feeding both at once,
and I'm like, oh my god, that that's literally going
to be metal life. So yes, it's a lot, a
lot to process, but yeah, BABYA and Baby B.
Speaker 2 (41:53):
Well, I used to like tell myself my TikTok time
was when I was nursing, and so I would sit
on TikTok while nursing and just scroll because you can
kind of like prep up the baby and like scroll
white and you got no chance. You're gonna sit in
your thoughts, my girl.
Speaker 3 (42:08):
Yeah, I'm gonna be crying.
Speaker 2 (42:09):
Or we're gonna have to like invent something like that
sits above your face, that you just like scroll your
phone with your nose. I think we should video that.
That should be so good idea. Yeah, so we're gonna
we're gonna get your propped up iPad so you can
scroll with your nose. Well, you hold these children. Also,
Madison has been petitioning me to have one more baby,
and I've decided now, since you're having twins and you
live but twenty minutes away, that when Maddie wants to
(42:32):
hold the baby, I'm gonna just send her to your house.
Speaker 3 (42:34):
Oh yeah, come on over, Oka, I got one for you.
Speaker 2 (42:38):
I got my got one you can hold.
Speaker 1 (42:39):
One doesn't count on you. Oh yeah, it does not count.
Speaker 2 (42:41):
I feel like it counts. So typically we end our
episodes with what advice do you wish you had or
had received as you are a mom because we talked
to a lot of moms, we also talked to a
lot of non moms. But you are a mom without
the babies yet, So our thought is we're gonna give
you some good advice that we have received or wish
(43:02):
we have received while we've been on this momming early
baby journey. So pack them a kick it over to you.
You get to give the first crack of advice and
you can give your advice to baby A.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
Okay, my advice to you would be And this is
not necessarily something that I personally have learned, but it's
me watching Anya go through. Mommy, remember that you also
have a right to take care of yourself and to
make space for yourself. So over communicate with your partner
aka your husband, Henry. Over communicate with Henry on what
(43:35):
you need because I think sometimes we don't ask for
help when we need it and then we just get
to like a breaking point. And I have no idea
what it's going to be like with twins, but with one,
it's a big adjustment. And I think as the birthing mom,
there's more of a like maternal instinct sometimes for Anya
to just do do do do do, And you will
(43:56):
inevitably have that and if you want your best self,
if you won't be your best mom, and you're going
to be an incredible mom, but you just have to
remember that you deserve to take care of yourself as well,
because the kids will be better if you're taken care of.
Speaker 3 (44:09):
I like that.
Speaker 2 (44:10):
You're very sweet, Henry. Good luck. Yeah, buckle up, Henri.
We're just half flowers to Henry on a daily basis. Well,
I love that pack and my advice is similar. So
I know you to be a very strong, willed, loud
about your opinions and feelings. And in that as well,
you care so much about everybody else that I think
(44:31):
that's our kinship. Like that's where we're the saint, like
twin flaming, because you'll put yourself in a bad spot
to help somebody else, as is evident by the body
of your work. And I keep like lightly sending you
these dms. But like, if someone isn't coming into your
space to be helpful, go away, Like I never did that,
and I wish I had, because it would have made
(44:52):
me nicer to the people that were coming into my
space and weren't helpful. But moreover, if someone's coming to
your house and they're not taking your trash out, or
they're not cooked you a meal, or they're not cleaning
up after themselves or changing their own sheets, no thanks,
they don't need to come over being a mom in
the early year of both of my children, I don't
think I can remember one thing if someone retells me
(45:13):
a story about what my kids were babies. My body
was there, but my brain was not. A lot of
that I think comes from saying yes to things that
I should likely say no to. So I think the
power and know is really really important. Yeah, I like that.
Speaker 3 (45:28):
I like that.
Speaker 2 (45:28):
Thank you. Thank you to you both. We love you.
Speaker 5 (45:31):
Thank you for coming onto these packs, Puck. We're excited
to see those little babies. And thank you for sharing
a little bit of breaking news with us. I mean,
this is so important, but also you are so important.
Thank you for being a champion, a foundation setter. Really,
thank you for everything that you've contributed to the sport.
Thank you for being here with us.
Speaker 3 (45:49):
Well, thank you same those to you both. So I'm
excited to be here as a soon to be mom,
I guess, or a mom without the kids.
Speaker 2 (45:57):
Are you are a mother Pucker too. Don't worry. You're
stuck with us and that's all we have today. Thank
you for listening.
Speaker 5 (46:04):
I'm Anya Packer and I'm Madison Packer, and this.
Speaker 2 (46:07):
Is these packs Puck These Pax Puck is a production
of iHeart Women's Sports in Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment.
Speaker 1 (46:17):
It's hosted by Us Madison and Anya Packer. Emily Meronoff
is our awesome senior producer and story editor. We were
mixed and mastered by Mary do Our executive producers are
Jennifer Bassett, Jesse Katz, and Ali Perry.
Hey everyone, I'm Madison Packer. I'm a recently retired pro
hockey vet, a founding member of the National Women's Hockey League,
a pillar in the PHF, and an inaugural member of
the PWHL Sirens.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
And I'm Any Packer, also a former pro hockey player,
also founding member of the National Women's Hockey League. But
today I'm a full Madison Packer.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Stan Anya and I met through hockey, then we got married,
and now we're moms to two awesome toddlers, ages two
and four.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
And on our new podcast, These Packs Puck, we're opening
up about the chaos of our daily lives, between the
juggle of being athletes, raising children and all the messiness
in between.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Hey Anya, Hey pack you ready to get into it today?
Speaker 2 (00:44):
You know today I feel better than ever to get
into it.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
All right, let's talk some hockey.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Hockey hot take.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
So my hot take for today is that that there
needs to be further clarification in the PWHL surrounding body
checking and body contact. And I think that that's hugely important.
So when we were up in Toronto for preseason mini camp,
they actually did a phenomenal job of there was this
(01:18):
mini orientation. It was very quick, it was concise, it
was to the point, it was very educational and informative
about the business and et cetera. Of topic that we
talked about was how to protect yourself.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
I thought it was hugely.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
Valuable and important. Yep, and we learned a lot. You know,
how to receive a hit, how to protect your teammates,
how to protect yourself. What hits are you know allowed,
what hits aren't allowed. But then you watch the games
and it's like, what you don't get me wrong? Body
contact is good and I think it's making the game
more entertaining in things, but there needs to be more
(01:50):
consistency amongst the officials and more clarification to the players.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
There have been how many egregious hits from my gosh,
there's been some crazy ones, and I won't lie, like
I think part of the issue is that it's still foreign,
even though it's now in year two of being able
to body check. Because as people get more emboldenedto body check,
because we're going to introduce that into the women's game,
we're now taking liberties to just hit each other flagrantly,
(02:15):
and I think that like it needs to be introduced
at a foundational level, so that you're learning how to hit,
receive a hit, not do the like numbers three feet
from the boards and almost murder somebody style hit. But
I will agree I love hitting. I absolutely am one
hundred percent for introducing hitting in the women's game because
it's hockey, and so much of us grew up playing
(02:36):
boys hockey that like, we already were hitting. But now
we have players that have just played girls hockey that
have never hit before and don't know how lethal a
dangerous hit can truly be.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
And an equally important piece to the equation is protecting yourself, right,
Like I got a penalty up in Toronto for a
body check.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
It was a really hard hit. It was a clean
body check.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
Like the RAF was like, you can't, You're not allowed
to hit, and I'm like, well, yeah we are, yeah,
and you go, I can look at it. I annihilated
the player. But like the motion of going to hit was,
I went to make the hit when she still had
the puck. Yeah, no hit was received after she had
the puck. But I'm just saying that's confusing to players.
Clean hit though, Yeah it's a clean hit.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
We call that.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Sometimes we don't call it other times. And the point
of allowing us to body check right is to try
and make a play on the puck. We're not just
out there trying to kill each other. That's not productive.
That should be the point of body checking in entirety.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
But if you're going to make.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
A play on someone with the puck and then they
move the puck right before you hit them, we can't
penalize players for that, no finish or hit. And then
you got people who are getting hurt because they're trying
to get out of the way and knees are hitting knees.
We saw that with Aleena Mueller. I mean, you have
to protect players like Alena Mueller. We should protect all players.
But when you have a player like that who doesn't
lay hits like that, who's making a skill play in
(03:47):
the middle of the ice and is not expecting to
get hit, probably at all.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
But we're allowed to hit it.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Open ice now, So that lesson needs to be learned,
but not to the head.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Because Alena Mueller is in her second year. She just
came from NC double as where there was no oh hitting.
She had one year of flux where she's learning it
and then she gets crushed open ice.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
This is not picking apart players who have made plays
that are suspect, because I'm not claiming that there's intent
to injure, et cetera.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
I mean, after the fact they did look at it
and give her a two game suspension, but in the moment, yeah,
And I think.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
That that's just the point is that, like, we have
to get closer to getting those calls right. It happens
at every level in the NHL as well. But when
you can get that call right in the moment, then
there's no gray area on the ice for players. No
one feels like, well, what's allowed what isn't because it
was a pretty bad hit and like refs miss things.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
For sure.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
I think that those officials are great. Kelly Cook was
one of them. You know, she's been roughing for a
long time. I think again, when you watch the video,
like it looked like there was maybe an awkward stick
play and like some confusion. But I just think that
they need to try and get those kinds of hits
out the door immediately so there doesn't continue to be
a problem because we've seen a few hits like that
and you just don't want to see anyone get hurt
(04:59):
on the necessarily.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
One thousand percent. The fact that nobody jumped on the
ice to start like counter physicality, That's where my brain
goes is like sure refs Shore Review. Sure it got
amended at the end, But the fact that nobody put
hands on that player after one of their teammates was
knocked out like that is a little crazy to me.
(05:21):
I'm not gonna lie.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Well, and I think you have to consider like the
whole picture of it, right. I'm not saying that women
should start going out there and beating the shit out
of each other like it is an entertainment.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
Factor for sure.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
When you look on the men's side, someone hits Patty
Kane or Sid Crosby or you name them, anyone gets
hit like that and everyone on the ice is coming together.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
Yeah, I mean even just to do like the shovy,
the you know, the like circular shove and yell at
each other thing.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
There's just so much gray, are you right now? Around
the rules and around all I mean, because if you
fight and like different refts will interpret fighting as different things.
That's a game misconduct, right, So look at who's she's
on the first line, their top DP pairs out there
like you just have to look at things differently when
the consequence then becomes Okay, well, do we really want
to lose one of our best, Like, yeah, the answer
(06:07):
is yes.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Someone should have stood up for Muler. Absolutely, the answer
at the end of the day is yes. I think
one of the players on the ice like gave her
a shove ten seconds past until that shove occurred. And
I'm not saying fight to your point, I'm not advocating
for that, but at least get up in her kitchen, like,
talk a little shit a little bit. Yeah, please.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
I think it's just like, as as the hitting continues
to become more norm people are going to start to
figure out how you protect the players you need to protect,
and how you build a roster to have someone that
can take care of those things when they happen. But
it's just it's hard because then you lose a player
for a game. It doesn't hurt to get punched in
the face of the helmet on. You're not going to
counter lay a hit to the head. It's just hard
(06:50):
because we're allowing hitting, we're allowing a more physical game.
But when people take liberties like that, the consequence in
the moment of the game needs to be immediate and
needs to be severe, or you need to allow people
to get their ass kicked. And I think that makes
today's interview so fitting because we had a chance to
talk with one of the probably most physical players in
(07:12):
the women's game.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
That is true, We absolutely did. We're going to start
by giving a little check in, though, pack tell me
how you're feeling. I like, I like when you agree.
So I'm already in a good headspace. But where are
you at? Give me your one to one hundred.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
I was a little bit higher until you talk to
me like you just did. Now I'm at like a
eighty three, maybe probably in eighty three. I got to
sleep in. Actually, no, eighty seven.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
You got five points for sleeping four points for sleeping in.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Oh no, I was going to say I got to
sleep in today. Whalen came into our room for a
midnight cuddle.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
That was very sweet. So last night you weren't here,
you went out and met up with friends. And then
Whyalan said to me, I will cuddle with you because
mom's gone. But when she's back, you send her in.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
I was like, Okay, you send that woman, you send
her in.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
I was like, oh, so at midnight he wakes up
and you were snoozing, and so he came in and
got a little cuddle, which was actually very cute.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
I cuddled him when I got home, and I woke
him up.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
To do it.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
I didn't ask you to credit, didn't I. Yeah, I'm
all about the credit though, So I feel good. I
know you didn't ask, but I'll tell you how I'm feeling.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
You're still talking about me. How are you doing?
Speaker 2 (08:21):
I'm fabulous. I have had a very stressful week at work, actually,
but all that considered, I feel great. I'm gonna give
myself a solid seventy five. I'd like to work out today,
which I haven't done in the past four days, so
if I can get that, I'll be like, I'm going
to meet you at eighty seven. But right now. You
didn't work out yesterday. No, you just took the trash
(08:41):
cans out, and so I thought you did. I worked
out my stress of being on the phone recognizing word
triple paying for the Disney Plus bundle, and that was
a feverish workout via typing to nine different chatbots that
would not help me. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Wild PSA to all moms out there, check your subscriptions.
We've been paying thousand thousands.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
We should actually own Disney Plus now, So we.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
Were paying for that ESPN Hulu Disney bundle three times
for four years.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
I think it truly was like thirty five hundred bucks.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Well, it sounds like your spouse is technologically challenged.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
I blame everything on you, but I do love you anyways.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Yeah, so all right, Well it sounds like we're in
a good spot. We're going to an event together tonight.
We've got a babysitter, that's and they continue to be
a good day.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Yes, and I have no hair straightener or curling iron
because both of those two things have been lost, and
you have a buzz cut, so we do not know
where those have gone to, but still we proceed. They're
in Boston. They're in Boston. Speaking of Boston, I am
so excited to get into our interview with our next guest.
It is with my favorite person in the world. I've
said that about a bunch of our interviewers, but this
(09:47):
time I actually mean it. Kayleie Frakinlee, Babe, you are
my second soulmate. I always tell Kealo's that she's my
number one soulmate. I Sometimes your soulmates are your friends,
and that's who this person is. She is a former
Pride defender for the Boston Pride. She played for Peter
Michell Boston last year. She was my college roommate at
(10:07):
Boston University, a Clarkson Cup winner and Isabelle Cup winner,
a defender of the Year, an all around incredible person,
and an interesting story as to why she's not playing
this year. So let's get into it. Hey, kales Hi,
(10:32):
it's me Anya in Madison's here as well. I'm excited
to welcome Kaylee Frakin. Lee. Is it Leef? Where's it at? Legally?
Speaker 3 (10:41):
Legally it's Lee by just in the hockey world. Yeah,
it's just.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
Lee, Kaylee Quinn Lee.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
Yeah, it's a little weird.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
I'm obsessed with that, all right. So Kaylie Quinn Lee here,
who is actually formerly Kaylee Fraken, my longtime best friend,
college roommate Limt for a minute and a half, Maddie's
arch nemesis, the true best friend of this entire marriage.
So we're excited to have you.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
I'm so excited to be here.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
So I've known Freddy the longest. I met Freddie when
we were sixteen, we played together on Little Caesars. Freddy
lived with me, my Jewish friend, went to a Catholic
high school for a minute, and then you moved back
to Vancouver went to BEU. But when you were living
with me, we both were like angsty, cocky teenagers who
(11:28):
like had to be the best at everything that we did,
and we did not get along at all. So fast forward,
you are at BU Anya. Now you tell how you
come into the story.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Okay, So Kaylee was my college roommate and we were
both on BU. Our freshman year at BU, we played
Wisconsin in the National Championship, and Kaylee had already given
me the rundown of like who we hate on Wisconsin?
You were on the list, Like you were firmly on
that list. And Kaylee and I go through four years
of being college roommates, best friends. We go on to
play in the pros together. We literally started and ended
(11:59):
every new adventure in lockstep together. So when I started
dating you, I find out, well, yes, I was supposed
to hate you. And I called Kales and she's in
the grocery store and she just goes, I'm listening. I
went on a date. It's someone you know. She was like, okay,
like I know she knows, like she's pissed. I'm like,
(12:19):
it's Madison Packers. She was like, uh.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
Okay, okay, yes, And on my side of things, I
very much was taken aback. But You're like, I know,
I know a long time has passed. I was like, adya,
it's been like fifteen years. I really don't care. I
know at that point it's like, yeah, maybe when we
were fifteen, but like we're like at her twenties now,
like who cares. I go, that's great. How was it
(12:45):
a He's like asking the Godfather's permission? Full circle.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
Then you're in our wedding. My mom and I still
joke about it. She's like, I just can't believe that
Anya and Kaylee are best friends.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
It was the most bizarre like sequence of events of
like the world being way too small, especially in the
sports world, you know.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
And then we just went on to have like we've
had like a fun back and forth, like funny banter
on the ice, except for there was one time something
happened and I like cross checked you really hard. You
remember that, yes, and You're like, are you fucking kidding me?
Like are you kidding me right now, And I was like, yeah,
that was probably a little bit much. I told Anya
after the game. I was like, she's so sensitive. She
was like, pack that was unnecessary.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Yeah, she was like, I can't believe it. I'm like, babe,
I think you've Like, first of all, I think you
heard her, but that was cheap, Like that's you both
do the same thing, though you both will get like
into it, either with each other or other people. Like
you both have actually asked me to mediate other people
fight to you, bick. Was that no ridiculous?
Speaker 3 (13:40):
I'm like, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
I feel like you kind of hit that girl from
behind because Kales came to be you from playing basically
like men's juniors, Like she's full hitting, her teammates are
going to the NHL. She's coming to be you. Literally
the first time we ever stepped on the ice, we
were playing like some Canadian team and they came down
and be used to bring down a Canadian team every year,
(14:02):
first scrimmage of the year and we'd sho lack him.
Kal's killed this kid, I swear. The poor girl. She
skates up to the bench, she looks at me, she goes,
what a bullshit call. It's like, I think that that
kid's in a stretcher.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
Well, I'm sorry, but in my defense, she was not
looking with her head up. She was looking behind and
she got a suicide pass.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
So it was like, gotta have to gotta have to
blow this poor kid up. And then the ref looked
at us and was like, we don't hit in this hockey.
Like at the time, hitting wasn't allowed anywhere and there
was no pro league that allowed hitting. Kaylee was just
full blown, open, nice hitting people our entire freshman year.
It was fun.
Speaker 3 (14:42):
Spent a lot of time and spent a lot of
time in the box, but it was fun.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
I love that. So then we went from college to
the pros. So back in the day, the NWHL starts
and Kaylee gets this invite to an event in Manhattan
and she calls me and goes, let's go, like I'm
going down to the city, come with me. We were
up in Boston, so we get on like a megabus
and we'd go down to Manhattan for this launch of
(15:06):
a women's pro league. And again like you, babe, Kales
is my much better than me at hockey friend. And
I get to be like the second one that hangs
out in the much better than hockey world, and she goes,
I know the GM, I have a contract. I'm gonna play.
You gotta come. So we started an event, then we
go to tryouts, we get an apartment, we do the
(15:27):
whole thing. I make the teams a practice player. We're
in the first year of the pros and so are
you for New York at the time, and we're all
playing in this new league with all this hype, all
this fun. We're making enough money to kind of live.
So Kalos talk to us about like that whirlwind starting
women's pro hockey, kind of like how that was.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
Yeah, it was such an interesting time because coming out
of school, I just played a year in the CWHL.
We had just won the Clarkson Cops. So I played
for the Boston Blades and then I was with the
national team still, but I was always in and out
of that program for like a very long time, and
I had just been released from the team. It was like,
just won the Clarkson Cup. I was on a high
(16:09):
of winning what was like the championship at the time,
and then getting a call from the national team being like, yeah,
you're no longer with our program, getting the snips, and
then I was kind of like, oh, okay, I guess
my career is over at twenty two years old. It
just kind of smacks in the face and you don't
really know what to do. I mean, I vividly remember
(16:31):
talking to my dad on the phone bawling, being like,
my life is over.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
This is like the end of my life.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
I have nothing else to look forward to. And then
it was like the weirdest eerie thing getting that email
from Danny Ryland, who I didn't even know who Danny
was at the time, but I guess I played her
maybe my freshman year at Northeastern and seeing that email
and it was like, hey, we're starting this women's pro
league and I still have this email to the day.
I remember like it was this crazy situation where we
ended up taking a chance at it. It was like
(16:58):
women's pro hockey. It was like, I mean, nothing could
be worse than paying to play more or less in
the CWHL. So I was like, you know, what could
be kind of better than you know, actually making some
money playing And that was really just like a crazy
time of I remember getting the first paycheck in the
NWHL and us living in Pony Avenue where what we
(17:18):
called it Pony Avenue in Norwalk, Connecticut, and living with
Chelsea Leyden and Cheyenne dark Angela. There was a house
of us of four and you know, we're making met
ends meet. We were coaching on the side, we were
doing private lessons. We were kind of just like making
it work and living this life of what we thought
was the dream. At the time, it was like, we're
playing hockey professionally, We're getting paid to do it. And
(17:39):
I was in a situation where I'm Canadian too, so
I had a visa to play in America and I was,
you know, living out this professional hockey dream. So I
went from thinking that everything and anything was all about
the Olympics to realizing a whole new path of purpose
and what I wanted to do in women's pro hockey
and what I felt women's pro hockey could be and
(18:01):
should be. And so I just took a leap of faith,
and thankfully you joined me.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
I got you to leave.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
Massachusetts and come with me, which was crazy because I
don't think I would have been able to do it
without you too, So honestly, it was fun to do
it together.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
For sure, it was.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
Fun to do it together, and Mattie you lived a
similar life. You know. It was kind of like that
post national team. I'll call it a hangover, right, because
like it is depressing, it is hard.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
Yeah, I mean I think that like to hear this point,
we were making money, but we were like existing, right,
you know what I mean, Like we weren't like we.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
Weren't saving anything.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
Also that, yeah, we all had other jobs and so
and I think that participating in that and working alongside
those people, you recognize that everyone is doing it for
something other than themselves, like you have to be right
and then just that bond honestly with both of you,
and there was you know, like Cheyenne and Dempsey and
a few other people like the players that just kept
doing it and can just kept plugging along and you
(18:54):
just continue to grow this like inherent respect for one
another in what we're trying to do.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
And I think we've talked about it on you. I
don't know Freddy and I've ever talked about it.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
But like you do not get nearly enough credit or
as much credit as you deserve for the work that
you did in growing the game. Like my face was
out there a lot with the PHF and I got
a lot of attention, but there was nothing that I
did that you didn't. When that whole thing went down
season five and a bunch of players left to form
the PWHPA, it was me, you and Dempsey that were like, Okay,
(19:24):
we'll stay and we'll help. And like we because we
believed in Anya and we believed in what the league
was trying to do. You have done so much for
the game and for women's hockey specifically, and you don't
get nearly enough credit for it.
Speaker 3 (19:36):
That's very nice.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
Everybody. We're going to cut that, we're going to print it,
We're going to save it. No, I think that's a
good point. I mean, I always felt like there was
a certain amount of the three of us versus in
a lot of capacities. And when I was the head
of the Players Association, Kaylee was always on the Players Association.
And I never permitted Madison to join the Players Association
because we couldn't stay in that level of fighting in
(19:59):
our own PA. But she was always, like I joke like,
she was always like my sounding board. When I got
home we'd go to the PA meetings. Kels would be
like my Double's partner there, sometimes like major pushing back,
sometimes major supporting my thoughts, and I always operated with
I don't know best, and if everyone around me can
get a little bit better at knowing XYZ thing, then
we can all pool our knowledge and get better. But
(20:21):
I always felt like the person that fielded so much
extra work was you, whether it was like the visa
stuff or you know, shepherding new players or both of
you guys calling people and just talking about what the
league was and what it wasn't and being honest, it
isn't perfect, but it's getting there. And so like that
(20:42):
season five time was really foundational, not just for the league,
but it was foundational for the three of us because
we had to just click in or click out, like
we had to figure out which we were going to be.
So what was the reason that you clicked in?
Speaker 3 (20:57):
I remember, you know, kind of sitting there and just
being very confused as to why there needed to be
this whole restart because we had been witnessing and living
it and breathing it every single day for the last
four years and seeing the strides that were being made
and seeing the little strides like, yes, to your point,
nothing's perfect. And still to this day it's not perfect,
(21:19):
but there was growth that was being had in the
right ways, and for me, when we got to that influx,
I just says, it makes no sense to restart. There
was some like catch going on in the league. There
was some good visibility. There was like some traction, and
I was like, why are we going to now step
away and boycott and go a different path when there
(21:42):
was a lot still to be had And I feel
like playing was going to keep that going. Playing in
the league where you had twenty four game seasons, I
wanted to play, and I was in a prime of
my career or getting into that place where I felt
could have been the prime. So I felt like playing
was the right way to go. And that just was
my viewpoint. I know that there was a lot of
other players that felt the same way. They didn't want
(22:02):
to sit out. They didn't think that not being in
front of the fans, not growing the community, not growing
the fan base. Where we had these teams, we had
these logos, you know, we had these franchises that we
had like building in momentum where butts were starting to
come into seats, and for me, going the other direction
just didn't make sense logically, and I remember sitting down
(22:23):
with my oldest brother Jesse, who was a huge sounding board.
I just remember being like, should I be doing this?
Should I not be doing it?
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Now?
Speaker 3 (22:30):
I feel like I'm a lone, you know, soldier or yeah,
one of the few that would be taking a stance
against you know, a large group of people. You know,
it's not an easy thing to do, and it takes
a lot of strength, and it takes a lot of
courage to just say like, I think differently, and while
others probably do feel the same, they may not have
the strength to speak out. And I felt like because
(22:52):
of the position and just the tenure that I was in,
that I felt okay to take a stance. But I
knew that there was a lot of people that weren't
willing to put their neck out on the line, because
you are putting your name out there to be subject
to god knows what, quite honestly, And I felt no ties,
you know, holding you back to a national team, which
I know there was a lot of players that had
(23:12):
ties to national teams that felt like if they step
outside the line, like they might get hindered in any way.
So I felt like a free bird in that instance
where I was like, I'm following my heart. I'm going
to do what I think is right, and I have
no problem if you know, that's subject to who knows
what down the line, because I think this is right
for the sport. I don't know if any other player
(23:33):
is going to join, but like sure enough, it was
that year where like all these people came.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
Out of the woodwork.
Speaker 3 (23:38):
I mean there were so many women that joined the
league that like hadn't played hockey in like a while.
They kept everything afloat, and I remember like the first
meeting that we had in Boston. This was like people
from all different paths of playing, and you knew that
everyone was there for a bigger cause and everyone was
like all in it just to keep the league going,
(24:00):
to keep the sport going. In it was like crazy feeling.
It's so even hard to describe because it was just
one of those things where we had to be there
and pack like you definitely obviously know, and I mean
odds you know in that capacity too. It's just like
this feeling that you're like, holy crap, we're here for
something else, and we're here for something bigger, and it
was just like such a monumental I think year in
movement for women's hockey.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
I distinctly remember coming home from the first practice that season,
and the practice was really.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
Far away, and so it was like a long drive home.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
I'd showered at the rink, but I got home and
I was like, I said, TONI, I was like, I'm
just gonna I just need to take a shower. And
I went upstairs and I literally just sat on the
bench in our shower and cried. And I remember, on
do you think came in the bathroom, You're like, are
you okay? And I was like no, like like I
don't know what I've like, I don't know if this
was the right thing. Like it was scary because like
to your point, you spent all this time building something
that is just starting to get traction, and then most
(24:51):
of the best players, I guess I would say, are like, nope,
we're out. And there's a lot of those players have
a lot of power in the world of hockey, right,
and so we were like, well, what do we do?
Do I really want to stand up against all these
big names who have more poll who have more this,
or again, to your point, like when you start to
think about Okay, what makes most sense. We were like,
we're making strides. We have people that are making money. Yeah,
(25:13):
to this day, I firmly believe that if we had
just everyone had just locked out in the NWHL PHF
had just folded and we all went to the ped up,
we wouldn't be where we are today because it would
have just been a new variation of the same thing.
And I strongly believe that a part of the appeal
to the you know, the new ownership group and why
the league was acquired, et cetera, because there was value
(25:34):
in it, because someone had done a lot of the
heavy lifting and shown what works what doesn't. There's infrastructure.
Yet did they come in and blow everything up?
Speaker 2 (25:41):
Sure? Perhaps by design.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
But like a lot of that is the bones of
what we all know and built. That's not a shot
at anybody, that's just saying I strongly believe that if
both had not existed at the same time, we would
not be where we are today. And I think that
that is lost on so many people to this day.
None of those women will ever get credit for what
they did, and without any of those players, we wouldn't
(26:04):
be here.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
So important to note that both of you at the
top were fighting for this change specifically, but year over
year for those those years we call it season five, six,
seven eight, and then moving forward it was going to
be this way. But then the league was acquired, the
minimum salary per team raised by over one hundred percent
year over year. It was clear, at least when I
(26:27):
was the head of Player Association, which was all but
the last two years, that what our goal was was
to make it equitable for everyone in the league. That
was an equal distribution of funds that were distributed to players,
that was an increase in minimum wage year over year
to make it as close to liverpowl as possible. And
then in the final year that then didn't occur, but
you guys were coming back together again to be on
(26:49):
the Riveters. And that Riveters team was very interesting because
there was no player making less than fifty thousand dollars
and that was a commitment by Madison ew at the
time as the captain, but everyone at the top saying
we won't take those one hundred and fifty thousand dollars
contracts annually because it needs to be equitable at the bottom.
It was interesting because with all the power you both
fought so hard for equity across the league, and I
(27:11):
thought that that was really important. And again, like when
we talked about your career, pack, it always was the
not hockey things, Like I could run both of your
stats and show you both being incredible hockey players, but
the non hockey things that you did in sport were
always so interesting to me and always the reason that
I revere you both as my two favorite people in
the world. So let's put that in the past now
(27:51):
talking about your first Isabelle Cup kaals because that was
after season five. I mean that was after like some
of the dramas, but you played for the Boston Pride.
You then worked the ranks to become the assistant captain
of the Boston Pride, and you got the You win
the isabel Cup to Flate Gate. Jillian Dempsey receives the
cup and the first person that lifts it is you.
(28:12):
What does that moment mean to you?
Speaker 3 (28:15):
I mean, that was really such a cool moment. Like
you know, it was just a long season in general,
right for how it kind of played out to play
that final Isabelle Cup game the year before we were
cut short because of COVID after having like a record
season of going you know, twenty three and one, which
was insane, right, and then the beginnings of COVID we
couldn't even play the final Isabelle Cup game, and then
(28:36):
the next year having to come back after Lake Placid
and playing that game and playing in front of no fans.
So it was just like the most bizarre kind of
two seasons where we had a lot of the same players,
and I'd spent now a number of years with Demps
and her McKenna and I in the leadership group, just
spent a ton of time just really fighting for everything
(28:58):
for our players, which like at oftentimes you really felt
like you were kind of going head to head and
even Dempson I would go head to head in moments,
and just a crazy two years. And I just remember
her before going into that final game saying to me like, hey, Freddy,
like if we win, you know that cup is coming
to you right away. And I just like didn't think
about it in this whole time, but obviously I knew
(29:21):
I had played a very long time in the league
and I had not had the chance of winning a cup.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (29:25):
I left the Riveters, you know, and they won the
Cup the next year. I left, you know, left Connecticut
and then go to the Ribs. It's like a left
they won. I'm like, oh my god, am I ever
gonna win? The last time I won was I guess
twenty fifteen the Clarkson Cup. But I was like, am
I gonna win? And she was like, I'm gonna give
you this cup. Sure enough, she like grabs a cup
and gives it to me, and I was like, oh wow,
this is what they is what keels like? It's kind
(29:48):
of crazy, No, but it was really cool. I mean
the fact that it was kind of in the situation
and setting that it was. It was nice coming from
someone that you went through the trenches with, you know,
very similarly had a long history with, had gone through
kind of every thing that we had gone through. It
was just was something that was very selfless and it
just I think is a testament to Demps and who
she has as a person and her character.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
So I'm not going to comment because my mom told me,
if you don't have anything nice to say, say nothing
at all.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
That was also the time where Boston was privately owned,
so you guys were able to fight and drive like
real change but also like individual change.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
Well they had an unlimited budget.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
That's amazing. I mean like that.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Yeah, so I was so mad. Reagan Carrie wanted to
kill me. At the end of that, I think I
was like emailing her weekly.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
I was like, Boston's up to it again. They're cheating again.
I have proof. I just think, like, when we can
find super rich people that want to sit and say,
look at what my team has, it's better than yours,
that's the best case scenario. There was a game where
Boston came to play the Riveters. I was a GM
at the time, and I'm emailing the Boston GM all
the recommendations around the hotel, around the rink, and she goes, no, no,
(30:55):
don't need those. I'm like, okay, sorry, I didn't know
you already found one. We'll be staying in Times Square
to celebrate the holidays as a team. I'm like, nice,
I would love that budget. I would love to be
able to put my team up in Times Square and
then drive a coach bus to Jersey for the game,
but like do some big holiday dinner and celebrate. That's awesome.
(31:17):
I mean, like that is the best case scenario. Is
getting people that individually have the means to provide more
for the athletes. That's like what's going on in the
New York Liberty and it's an incredible environment for the
fans and for the players alike. And that's what you
guys had cultivated, an incredible fan base. So then you
take that same fan base. You're now the Boston Fleet,
(31:40):
but at the time you were just Boston in the PWHL.
How much of that fan base followed you to Songis Arena.
How much did you feel that fan base and how
much did you when you signed that contract feel maybe
the burden to bring that fan base with you.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
Yeah, our first game at Songis, I mean there was
more pride jerseys than anything. There was pride everywhere you went.
When it came out for warm up, you would see
all kinds of and all players. It was like you
would see twenty one Christina Putina, who had played for
Boston for about four or five seasons, and you saw
her jersey everywhere. You didn't see Hillary Knights jersey. You
saw Putina everywhere. It was hilarious. You know, I think
(32:18):
it was just it's hilarious because it was more just
like a testament to you know, all the you know,
jerseys and just like that fan base that we had
built was still going to support women's hockey regardless of
what the team name was going to be. And just
like when you did autograph signings and you were out
in the community, everyone would be like, oh my god,
I remember you from the Boston Pride or you know
I used to come to all these Pride games. You know,
how was so and so doing you know what is
(32:40):
this player up to? Oh I saw Gillian Dempseeason Montreal,
And it was just really cool to see how many
people actually had been following us for that long. I
remember actually going out to a clinic in wallfam a
couple of the dad coaches had come up. They were like,
you know, I remember, you know, watching season six with
the Pride, and I remember this game we came out
here with my daughter, and so it was just like
(33:01):
conversations like that, I think just really showed how many
people really did support our team in the community. And
it didn't matter that it was going to be a
new league, didn't matter that it was a new team name,
didn't matter if it was in Songist rather than being
at Warrior. They were still going to come out and
support And now just seeing it kind of grow and
build built from there. Now you're obviously seeing Fleet jerseys everywhere,
which is really cool.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
We had different reactions because when I saw all the
Riveters jerseys in the stands, I started crying.
Speaker 3 (33:28):
Very You're very sensitive.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
And then I got asked a question about it after
the game and I was like, I started crying again.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
I was like, it was good to see. Can't say
anything more.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
Balling, but yeah, it's it was. I was bawling. So
I want to talk about this a little bit. Back up,
a tiny bit before you joined the Boston Fleet. You
and I trained together all summer that off season and
like in the gym at five thirty am every day,
five days a week, all summer long up into the
which was even longer because I had the draft and
then the season didn't start till like November or whatever
it was. But you go undrafted alongside me, and then
(34:01):
it's like, WHOA, what's happening. Then there was a couple
of days whatever and you ended up signing with Boston, right,
But what was that like for you? Because like for me,
during that process, it was like, okay, obviously a little
bit uncomfortable and not knowing what was going to happen.
Like I wasn't signed, I was undrafted and then had
to go to camp to make the team. So a
little bit different situations. But then, like we've just talked about,
(34:22):
you and I played in a league. You played for
a couple of different teams. I played for the same one,
but you have this like emotional connection, right, and then
we're just supposed to turn it off and all of
a sudden jump into this new thing, and there's no
real time or any consideration for the fact that like
these players might be going through something deeper, like a
grief and loss and then like all these other things, right,
(34:43):
and so the players from the PWHPA, I think it
felt more like a quote unquote win for them, right,
because now it's the p DUB is the new league,
And it just didn't feel like this coming together of
two things. It felt kind of like one side lost,
And to me, that's how it felt. And then we
all come together and it's like, well, how do we
navigate this new thing? Like how was that for you
mentally and emotionally going into that environment, Like did you
(35:04):
experience any of that also or were you just able
to kind of jump into it anew and start fresh.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
No, it was.
Speaker 3 (35:10):
Weird for sure. I remember being in in trading camp
and had been doing some community outreach stuff, like like
I was saying, going to different clinics or going to
different sporting events, like whatever it may be, and it
was weird to see different colors that weren't black and yellow.
I spent six seasons in Boston, so like that was
(35:31):
home for me. You know, golden black or yellow and
black were the colors, and the Boston Pride logo, even
though it changed over time, like that logo was very
distinct and prominent in Boston. So it was weird for
me to now see these green colors and show up
to the rink and it's all like different logos and
all these different things, and just seeing the word PWHL
(35:51):
Boston out in the community or going to like different
sporting events where we'd be recognized at like a Revolution
game and they'd be talking about PBHL Boston, and I'm like,
we just had so much history with the Boston Pride
of winning in the city, like having banners at Logan Airport,
where you're like, does that just all get erased? Does
no one now want to talk about the fact that
(36:12):
women's hockey has existed in the city for the last
nine years, even with the Blades before that, and you're
kind of like, no one wants to talk about it.
No one wants to say that, you know, this is
rich history for women's hockey and this is just you know,
now another team in another league. Like I maybe compartmentalized
my emotions a little bit differently than you, And for me,
(36:32):
I was able to kind of compartmentalize it and just
be like, you know what, like I'm here. I still
got to like prove myself. I went undrafted to your point,
you know, I signed as like a seventh defenseman on
that team. So I had a lot to prove, and
I think I was laser focused on this whole. Like
you know, I'd done a lot in the PHF and
I had built a resume that I thought would have
(36:53):
put me on a depth chart heart higher than what
it was. Truthfully, you did, and you did and it didn't,
you know, but like you know it and it didn't
go that way. So like for me, I kind of
was like I had this mission of yes, everything going
on in the greater of the sport and everything from
the days of us growing what we did. I kind
of was like I had to park that a little
(37:13):
bit and just be like, emotionally, I got to check
that aside and I got to focus on myself right now,
and my focus is like I got to prove all
of these people wrong. And so there was just like
for me this mission of like I want to prove
it to myself that I'm capable of doing this, and
that just because I wasn't on any of these teams
or no one like had recognized me for all this time,
doesn't mean that I wasn't capable of being there. So
(37:35):
while I was still exactly like you grieving this whole
you know, lost stuff.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
Yeah, well spoiler alert, you go from undrafted to scoring
in overtime when Peter Bchel Boston needs a win to
make it into playoffs. And I remember that goal, but
I loved that moment because I was like, that's a
fraddy goal, like that goal in Clade, which when you
(38:01):
need it for title town like all that. As a
Bostonian who never actually really played in Boston, I just
felt so like soothed by that goal in that moment.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
I think I tweeted Kaylee f and frakin ladies and gentlemen,
which might actually be the only time.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
She's ever been supportive of you publicly. But now we
start the season, the Boston Fleet is playing games and
you're not there. I mean, we know why, but I
feel like the people need to know why.
Speaker 3 (38:28):
So I'm not playing this season because I am pregnant.
Speaker 2 (38:34):
And not just pregnant with a baby, No, I'm having twins.
God bless the most Kaylee fracking thing in the world
is not only are you're having a baby, you're having
two babies at once.
Speaker 3 (38:45):
That's exactly what my long time friend you obviously know,
Anna was telling her the other day and she goes,
of course, that's such a Kaylee bracket thing. You can't
just have a baby. You have to have to like,
why can't it just be a normal situation where.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
So you and Anya went to lunch one day and
then Anya came home and I was like, oh, how
was it, And normally she like tells me what you
guys talked about and whatever, and she was just kind
of weird and I was like, that was weird. And
then fast forward a couple of weeks, you and your husband,
Henry are coming over for dinner and she's like, I
have to tell you something, and I was like what.
She goes, Katie's pregnant, and I was like, oh my god.
She was with twins, and I was like, oh my god,
(39:22):
are they okay? And she was I literally said the
same thing. And then she told me about your lunch
when you guys went, and she was like, I literally said,
are you okay?
Speaker 2 (39:28):
And then we both just cried. Yeah. So we sat
down for coffee and she waits the entire time, We're
like talking about nonsense. I was probably venting about you
was like training camp. So I was alone at the
house like just like this whole thing. And then we're
going that's like, hug goodbye. And I had a meeting
like subsequently, like fifteen minutes later, and she was like,
by the way, I asked you to come for coffee
(39:49):
because I had to tell you something. And I was like, oh, great,
time to tell me. At the end of coffee, she's like,
I'm pregnant. So we're like jumping up and down and
she's like with twins, and I just immediately was like, wait,
what what are you all right? She was like no,
I'm not stressed.
Speaker 3 (40:06):
Yeah, And then we just bald, I'm stressed.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
I'm also stressed. I'm freaking out. So you're pregnant with twins,
and you're now probably less freaking out than you were originally.
But tell us about it. Tell us about being pregnant
with twins. I've never done that.
Speaker 3 (40:21):
It was very overwhelming at first. I think how we
found out we were having twins as well was its
own level of overwhelmingness. You know, we thought something was wrong.
We had gone in for an ultrasound, and the ultrasound
tech was like, congratulations. My husband and I are thinking
it's gonna be like the worst news you know, that
you could possibly have, and it was the best news.
(40:41):
So we were we were definitely blessed and thankful of that.
But you know, they're like, you're having twins, and they
like show us baby A and baby B, and you're.
Speaker 4 (40:48):
Like, oh my god, are you sure. I was like,
I was like, where are they gonna fit? Like how
is this gonna work? I was like, I'm gonna be
the largest human on the surface of this earth. So
so yeah, just very overwhelming at first. I think like
going down the rabbit hole of thinking about two of
everything at once is.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
A lot so stressed for you. I mean, like I'm
excited for you, but I just think about, like now
my Instagram feed is just everything twins because it obviously
listens to me, and I watch people that have twins.
Obviously people do it all the time and they navigate
life normally. But I'm like, oh my.
Speaker 3 (41:23):
Well, the funniest thing is is I went down this
rabbit hole of you know, being on TikTok and same
thing Instagram reels and you find like the community of
people that are having twins or have twins. And this
one woman on Instagram she has a toddler and then
she has twins, and just seeing the like nursing pillows
where it's like double the nursing, you know, like two
(41:43):
at once, and she's like, you know, feeding both at once,
and I'm like, oh my god, that that's literally going
to be metal life. So yes, it's a lot, a
lot to process, but yeah, BABYA and Baby B.
Speaker 2 (41:53):
Well, I used to like tell myself my TikTok time
was when I was nursing, and so I would sit
on TikTok while nursing and just scroll because you can
kind of like prep up the baby and like scroll
white and you got no chance. You're gonna sit in
your thoughts, my girl.
Speaker 3 (42:08):
Yeah, I'm gonna be crying.
Speaker 2 (42:09):
Or we're gonna have to like invent something like that
sits above your face, that you just like scroll your
phone with your nose. I think we should video that.
That should be so good idea. Yeah, so we're gonna
we're gonna get your propped up iPad so you can
scroll with your nose. Well, you hold these children. Also,
Madison has been petitioning me to have one more baby,
and I've decided now, since you're having twins and you
live but twenty minutes away, that when Maddie wants to
(42:32):
hold the baby, I'm gonna just send her to your house.
Speaker 3 (42:34):
Oh yeah, come on over, Oka, I got one for you.
Speaker 2 (42:38):
I got my got one you can hold.
Speaker 1 (42:39):
One doesn't count on you. Oh yeah, it does not count.
Speaker 2 (42:41):
I feel like it counts. So typically we end our
episodes with what advice do you wish you had or
had received as you are a mom because we talked
to a lot of moms, we also talked to a
lot of non moms. But you are a mom without
the babies yet, So our thought is we're gonna give
you some good advice that we have received or wish
(43:02):
we have received while we've been on this momming early
baby journey. So pack them a kick it over to you.
You get to give the first crack of advice and
you can give your advice to baby A.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
Okay, my advice to you would be And this is
not necessarily something that I personally have learned, but it's
me watching Anya go through. Mommy, remember that you also
have a right to take care of yourself and to
make space for yourself. So over communicate with your partner
aka your husband, Henry. Over communicate with Henry on what
(43:35):
you need because I think sometimes we don't ask for
help when we need it and then we just get
to like a breaking point. And I have no idea
what it's going to be like with twins, but with one,
it's a big adjustment. And I think as the birthing mom,
there's more of a like maternal instinct sometimes for Anya
to just do do do do do, And you will
(43:56):
inevitably have that and if you want your best self,
if you won't be your best mom, and you're going
to be an incredible mom, but you just have to
remember that you deserve to take care of yourself as well,
because the kids will be better if you're taken care of.
Speaker 3 (44:09):
I like that.
Speaker 2 (44:10):
You're very sweet, Henry. Good luck. Yeah, buckle up, Henri.
We're just half flowers to Henry on a daily basis. Well,
I love that pack and my advice is similar. So
I know you to be a very strong, willed, loud
about your opinions and feelings. And in that as well,
you care so much about everybody else that I think
(44:31):
that's our kinship. Like that's where we're the saint, like
twin flaming, because you'll put yourself in a bad spot
to help somebody else, as is evident by the body
of your work. And I keep like lightly sending you
these dms. But like, if someone isn't coming into your
space to be helpful, go away, Like I never did that,
and I wish I had, because it would have made
(44:52):
me nicer to the people that were coming into my
space and weren't helpful. But moreover, if someone's coming to
your house and they're not taking your trash out, or
they're not cooked you a meal, or they're not cleaning
up after themselves or changing their own sheets, no thanks,
they don't need to come over being a mom in
the early year of both of my children, I don't
think I can remember one thing if someone retells me
(45:13):
a story about what my kids were babies. My body
was there, but my brain was not. A lot of
that I think comes from saying yes to things that
I should likely say no to. So I think the
power and know is really really important. Yeah, I like that.
Speaker 3 (45:28):
I like that.
Speaker 2 (45:28):
Thank you. Thank you to you both. We love you.
Speaker 5 (45:31):
Thank you for coming onto these packs, Puck. We're excited
to see those little babies. And thank you for sharing
a little bit of breaking news with us. I mean,
this is so important, but also you are so important.
Thank you for being a champion, a foundation setter. Really,
thank you for everything that you've contributed to the sport.
Thank you for being here with us.
Speaker 3 (45:49):
Well, thank you same those to you both. So I'm
excited to be here as a soon to be mom,
I guess, or a mom without the kids.
Speaker 2 (45:57):
Are you are a mother Pucker too. Don't worry. You're
stuck with us and that's all we have today. Thank
you for listening.
Speaker 5 (46:04):
I'm Anya Packer and I'm Madison Packer, and this.
Speaker 2 (46:07):
Is these packs Puck These Pax Puck is a production
of iHeart Women's Sports in Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment.
Speaker 1 (46:17):
It's hosted by Us Madison and Anya Packer. Emily Meronoff
is our awesome senior producer and story editor. We were
mixed and mastered by Mary do Our executive producers are
Jennifer Bassett, Jesse Katz, and Ali Perry.
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Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.