Stephanie Dobbs Brown Talks About Money

Women’s sports has a money problem--from funding and player salaries to wealth management post-career. Stephanie Dobbs Brown, former CMO at Intercontinental Exchange (ICE) and the New York Stock Exchange, is working to address this issue by promoting financial literacy and equity in women’s sports. She sat down with the Packers to discuss why this issue matters to her and how financial education empowers women. Plus, she reflects on how she grew into her leadership style in a male-dominated field and shares how she carves time for herself and her son.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hey everyone, I'm Madison Packer.

Speaker 2 (00:03):
I'm a recently retired pro hockey vet, a founding member
of the National Women's Hockey League, a pillar in the PHF,
and an inaugural member of the PWHL Sirens.

Speaker 3 (00:12):
And I'm Anypacker, also a former pro hockey player, also
founding member of the National Women's Hockey League. But today
I'm a full Madison Packer.

Speaker 1 (00:21):
Stand.

Speaker 2 (00:21):
Anya and I met through hockey, then we got married,
and now we're moms to two awesome toddlers, ages two
and four.

Speaker 3 (00:28):
And on our new podcast, These Packs Puck, we're opening
up about the chaos of our daily lives, between the
juggle of being athletes, raising children and all the messiness
in between.

Speaker 1 (00:40):
Hey, pack how are we doing?

Speaker 3 (00:42):
We're doing, We're doing.

Speaker 1 (00:43):
Let's share with the world what we're going through right now.

Speaker 3 (00:46):
Well, for background, we had a great experience with the kids.
We brought them to a new school. They loved it,
and so we're like, let's leave and get pizza and
have this great family fun night. We take the kids
to like the park, it's starting to be a little
springy vibes here. When we get there, we eat the pizza.
Whalen starts getting a little squirrely. We're driving home. It's

(01:09):
a fifteen minute ride. We have one minute left. Projectile
vomit all over me, at least one hundred bags of
throw up, all over the car, all over the seats.
I met you from work. I had my nice pants on,
I had new shoes, new sweater covered. We get him
out of the car, and naturally we can't leave the
vomit in the car, so we start to clean up

(01:29):
the vomit. So I'm like cleaning out the car with
bare hands because I'm already covered in throw up. So like,
what's the point now? Like throwing up in between, just
trying to get through the situation. And we wake up
this morning. I was supposed to have jury duty and
you were supposed to have a nanny. I was excused
from jury duty, and nanny doesn't come. She's like, don't

(01:53):
feel good. I'm not coming, Like we don't feel well.
You have no idea what we're dealing with. So we
have the kids here, once throwing the other one just
escaped from her crib. Our best friend Kayleie's here, she's
watching them. She's pregnant with two babies. Things are happening here.

Speaker 4 (02:07):
You left out the part where this morning I needed
forty five minutes to get packed to go out of
town because I'm flying out tonight from JFK. And I
hear a little knock on my door. Oh, Harlan's little tap,
tap tap on the door.

Speaker 1 (02:20):
Open the door.

Speaker 4 (02:21):
The worst thing I've ever spelt in my entire life
hits me in the face at one thousand miles an hour.

Speaker 1 (02:26):
I'm like, what's wrong? She goes, I poop, but she's.

Speaker 3 (02:30):
Got no pants on, no diaper.

Speaker 1 (02:32):
No diaper.

Speaker 4 (02:34):
We're in the process of potty training, so we're both
excited that she pooped in the potty and we go
downstairs to learn that she had.

Speaker 1 (02:40):
Pooped on the floor and scoter bit across the carpet
like a dog.

Speaker 3 (02:46):
I also cleaned that. So two things that I've learned here.
One too much is going on, too many bodily fluids,
and you need to clean up the next poop or
throw up incident. All right, moving on, obviously, time to
talk about our other favorite love, which is hockey, and
hockey has been hockeying recently, so let's get into it.

Speaker 1 (03:09):
Hockey hot take.

Speaker 3 (03:12):
Okay, I have a hockey hot take this week. New
York is currently in a really bad spot, and I
think the hot take is that that comes from a
sheer lack of resources in the New York market and
truly the cost and challenge that's specifically putting a women's
pro team in New York or New Jersey right and
giving them the same as everybody else. I think that's

(03:33):
creating a disproportionate amount of challenge and then failure for
a market that should be incredibly strong. That's my hot take.

Speaker 4 (03:42):
I'm gonna have to push back and disagree entirely because
if that were the case, then the Riveters would have
never been able to have any success because the players
on that team seemingly were getting paid a fraction of
what the players are getting paid now. What happens on
the ice has nothing to do with your paycheck off
of it, in my opinion. It's pride of what you're
doing in love of the game, and it just seems
like a colossal nightmare. They're making the same decisions over

(04:05):
and over and over every night, expecting a different result.
You have all these games that go into overtime, great,
but it doesn't mean anything if you can't win it.
You've lost now what eight games in a row, and
you just look at that bench and it's just like
everyone is deflated, and please, this is not me like
taking a swing or grabbing a low hanging fruit, like
I love that team.

Speaker 1 (04:25):
I love this market.

Speaker 4 (04:26):
I've spent ten years trying to build it, and what's
happening is horrible. The fans are pissed, the building is empty,
the players are unhappy, careers are getting decimated. Something's got
to give at some point. In my opinion, the bigger
hot take is this is the problem when you have
a single ownership model. Again, very appreciative to the Mark
Walter group and the ownership group in Stan Casting and

(04:48):
Billy Jean King and everything they've done, But when you
only have one ownership group, you don't really care because you.

Speaker 1 (04:54):
Win no matter what.

Speaker 4 (04:56):
Yeah, obviously you want your markets to be successful, but
you don't have that die invested interest in one singular team.
If you want to bolster things in New York, let's
start with marketing. You and I are perfect audience.

Speaker 1 (05:07):
For the new year.

Speaker 3 (05:07):
But that's what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (05:08):
We haven't gotten a single thing.

Speaker 3 (05:09):
I don't think it's only player salaries. I think that's
part of it, right, because if you think about like
day zero of the league and they sign these three
players to contracts, the players that are choosing to come
to this market making what was it anywhere from one
hundred to one hundred and fifty maybe more right for
those kind of like three legacy contracts that they signed.

Speaker 1 (05:28):
Yeah, ninety to one to twenty.

Speaker 3 (05:30):
Maybe you're making that doesn't feel like any money around here,
no offense, tri state area doesn't matter, Connecticut and New
York City, New Jersey. It doesn't feel like a lot,
and it feels like a lot more if you're in
Ottawa if yeah, a lot more if you're in Minnesota.
So I think, right off the jump, I think it's
really difficult. And then you move forward from that, and

(05:51):
then you have the next player in the lineup making
fifty and that's a small feature.

Speaker 4 (05:55):
Just for the sake of being fair and transparent, I
think that there's a few in there that are in
the like sixty range fifty range, But it's a big
gap for sure, a lot of players making a lot
less money than people think because you've got a few
players making a ton.

Speaker 1 (06:09):
But I don't know.

Speaker 4 (06:10):
If that necessarily is the problem. I think the problem
is leadership and management. You're watching the same decisions with
different players being made, and you can't tell me that
you're putting the best combinations over the boards every time.
It's a horrible decision making by the people at the top.
If this was men's hockey, they would have cleaned house,
they would have moved forward in a different direction. I

(06:31):
don't think it's a coaching problem. I think that the
coaching staff there is great. Again, I'm not on the bench,
but there's something going on in that organization because it
hasn't changed from last year to this year, and that
team needs to start winning or that team is not
going to survive in this market.

Speaker 3 (06:44):
You know, we watched it with the Red Wings, right,
Like a head coach change in the middle of the
season is brutal, but it changes the trajectory of the team.
And if that's not the issue, right, something has to give.
I think there's not enough marketing, so there's not enough fans.
When there's not enough fans, there's not enough conversation. Like
if nobody is really watching the problem and exposing the
conversation of the problem, And I think the issue in

(07:05):
women's hockey and maybe women's sports sometimes is that we're
all just like rah, rah, this is amazing, Like women
are getting their bag, but we don't critically think about
are we really gonna call it out? Like when I'm
driving in Boston with my dad with AM talk radio,
I rarely think they say anything nice about the team.
And in Boston people bleed for the Celtics, they would
die for the Bruins. But people will, like armchair quarterback,

(07:28):
call these am lines to just rag all over their team.
But it does create a level of accountability if the
general consensus of the market is like this person should
be going over the boards and it's trash that they're not.
But in women's sports, we just say, isn't it amazing
how many little girls were at the game?

Speaker 2 (07:45):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (07:45):
I mean, don't think critically. Yeah, I mean we're past that.

Speaker 4 (07:48):
We're past the conversation about the the next generation. We
built this for them. It's built now. Is the opportunity
for the players. I played a nine and a half
year pro career, So in my mind, the players that
are up now, that are at bat and are their
first foot in the door in the pro league, they
shouldn't be having to do any more building this narrative

(08:08):
of the next generation and for the little kids, etc. Yes,
that is hugely important. That's why we started out where
we did and why we've built what we did. But
that can only be the talk track for so long
and good enough and being grateful to be here, forget
about that. All those women on the ice are damn
good athletes. They earned their spot on the team. They
deserve to be treated like professionals. And that team is

(08:29):
not being managed like a professional organization.

Speaker 1 (08:32):
Period.

Speaker 4 (08:33):
Losing eight games in a row and the building is
empty not a good business plan. And do you expect
people to keep showing up when you keep doing the
same thing and you keep getting the same result. They
want to see you win.

Speaker 3 (08:42):
Well the other thing too, And I'm just going to
keep going back because like you're leaning on one thing
and I'm leaning on another, but I think they both
probably meld into the same story. Right. But if you
take one of these athletes on the thirty five thousand
dollars contract and it's gone up what three percent annually?
That's what the CBA says. That player has to live
their life and then all in the offseason train I

(09:03):
saw your training Bill's girlfriend, they were more than thirty
five thousand dollars. So the other element of resources, like
these athletes don't have what they need to continue to improve.
So if you find your star players not scoring a
lot of goals, they don't have those extra resources to
go find a shooter tutor, to go find additional resources
to go to a shot doctor to figure out what's

(09:24):
going on. And those are resources that aren't yet filtering
through the women's game. But I tell you right now,
if Pastornak needs to go to a shot doctor and
like recalibrate his brain because he's shooting it wide left
every single time, he's dropping a couple grand he's getting
what he needs.

Speaker 1 (09:39):
And he's talking Bruins.

Speaker 3 (09:41):
Yeah, but whatever, even if I'm saying, even if the
Bruins don't, he is going to invest in his own
game in that way.

Speaker 4 (09:46):
Well, yeah, it's like member Lebron James did that interview
where he said he spends a million dollars a year
maintaining his body, massage, therapy, diet, like whatever you need
to be ready to go. Stuff's expensive and some players
have the resources to do it. Some players get partnerships.
But I think that also, you're always going to have
that yeah, right, like it is, I'll agree with you,
Like I don't know if.

Speaker 1 (10:07):
It's so much the salary.

Speaker 4 (10:08):
I do agree that there's a lack of resources and
they're getting there. Like Rome wasn't built in a day,
but this isn't the first second third day. Professional women's
hockey has been around for a long time. Yes, it's
a new league, but we can't keep learning the same
mistakes the hard way over and over because the fan
base is going to get tired. One two, I strongly
feel that that the problem in New York has nothing

(10:29):
to do with resources and has everything to do with
management and the fact that no one can look at
that situation, what happened last season, what happened with players,
what happened with the team? And then you go into
a new season and it's new coaching staff, new roster.
We're bolstered, we're fired up, we're ready to go. I
was pumped to see that team hit the ice. We're
right back to where we are. I want them to
be successful. I can't imagine how frustrated some of those

(10:51):
players are. And it's a two way street for sure,
Like you can't show up and be lazy. But it's
really hard to show up to the office every day
knowing that maybe no matter what you do, nothing is
going to change. There has to be a deeper conversation
within that management organization. Then I feel like, if you
can't fill the building, you can't pay your bills. And
if you can't pay your bills, what are you gonna do?

(11:13):
And I would hate to see it because New York
is such an incredible market. The Riveters thrived here for
eight years. Yes, in different circumstances for sure, but that
fan base is there, but they're not just gonna show up.

Speaker 1 (11:25):
You got to earn it.

Speaker 3 (11:26):
Yeah, I will say though, at the end of the day,
when you are a Minnesota Frost player and you walk
into a rink in Minnesota and everybody knows who you
are because they pack that building out, because their marketing
is legit and they have from the top to the
bottom seemingly a very bought in team, you have a
different gravitas than when you walk into a rink in

(11:49):
Central Jersey and nobody knows who you are because people
don't come to the games, the marketing's not done and
it's a busy area. Where people think and care about
other stuff. It's a different vibe. And so for all
of the reasons, I hope we find a way to
solve the New York problem because the New York liberty
have that care, gotam starting to have that care. People

(12:11):
care about women's sports in this area. It is not foreign.
But something's got to give to get the sirens to
that point. They're not there yet.

Speaker 4 (12:20):
I will say, you wanted the last words, so I'll
let you have it, but I have to comment on
what you just said. The attention in the accolade, et cetera.
That comes with growing something right, and you spoke to
it in Minnesota. That's not the most important part of
what we're doing, and that comes by showing up right,
by being a woman in hockey who cares about the credit,
versus being a woman in hockey who cares about growing

(12:41):
space for women in hockey. Just by growing the game
and getting shit done. That is how you get recognized,
not by caring mostly and only about getting recognized.

Speaker 3 (12:51):
Yeah, I mean right, But all that to say, when
you're making thirty five thousand dollars and you don't have
enough money to pay your bills, but you get recognized
everywhere you go and people ask if you're autograph. Still
feels pretty good. It makes you feel valid versus making
thirty five grand, being called a professional athlete, and then
having creditors call your cell phone. That doesn't feel good anyway.
Speaking of what doesn't feel good and maybe what does

(13:13):
feel good, I we got really hot on that one pack.
Let's all take a deep wosa.

Speaker 5 (13:18):
It's a hot take.

Speaker 3 (13:19):
That was the hottake. That was a hot take.

Speaker 1 (13:20):
That was a spicy take.

Speaker 4 (13:21):
I'm gonna say, if you bring up the sirens, it's
gonna get heated.

Speaker 1 (13:24):
I love that team.

Speaker 4 (13:25):
I think that they deserve better and they can't say it.
I can those players deserve better?

Speaker 3 (13:36):
What number are you at right now, dear, Yeah, I'm
like a hundred.

Speaker 1 (13:41):
I'm fired up.

Speaker 4 (13:42):
I'm sweating through my hoodie. I'm like a ninety five.
I'm pretty I'm pretty close to the top today. I
got to sleep in. I'm going on a trip with
all that.

Speaker 3 (13:50):
Chaos, Like you, you didn't you just run back our
last twenty four hours.

Speaker 1 (13:54):
I didn't have to clean any of that up. I
don't know, I'm.

Speaker 3 (13:57):
Feel the same way. I feel maybe a little sicky,
maybe what ways got going is a little contage out.
Maybe I've got all neurovirus. Maybe you're going to leave
to go to Columbus and I'm going to get really sick.
So that's how I'm feeling. But no, I feel good,
like I feel sad that the babies don't feel great.
But I think I think I'm probably at like a

(14:18):
seventy five. I'm ready to for a little no mama time.
Some of our friends on the Sirens, Elizabeth Hagere and
her wife Claudia, are going to come over. They're going
to help watch the kids. They're going to keep me
sane for a night, which is nice.

Speaker 1 (14:28):
So I don't know.

Speaker 3 (14:29):
I'm feeling good. I've got some plans and they don't
include you, girl, So I'm feeling fab Why.

Speaker 1 (14:35):
Do our friends only come over when I go out
of town?

Speaker 3 (14:38):
It's you smell.

Speaker 1 (14:40):
We didn't want to tell you.

Speaker 4 (14:40):
My chief can play over the last two weeks has
been that I don't hang out with adults anymore. I
only hang out with kids, which I love. Is it's
a blessing, right, But I will say I do miss
the locker room. I miss road trips.

Speaker 3 (14:55):
Well, you get to go on a road trip. Why
are you going to Columbus pack?

Speaker 4 (14:58):
I am going to Columbus for an event with the NHL.
It is the Stadium Series outdoor game at Ohio State Stadium,
the Ohio State Yeah, you're not gonna get that out
of me. The Red Wings are playing the Columbus Blue Jackets.
But it's like a big weekend of girls and women's
hockey events. So I'm going to luncheon. I'm going to
go rub some elbows, eat some tiny sandwiches, and have

(15:21):
some fun.

Speaker 3 (15:22):
So all that to say, you'll be in a room
of important people. We know a very important person that's
joining us today, which I'm really excited about. We talked
about some key themes that I think kind of line
up with the conversation that we're about to have. But
Stephanie Dobbs Brown will join us shortly. Stephanie, welcome to

(15:52):
the pod.

Speaker 6 (15:53):
Thank you, thank you for having me, and you're so
happy to be here, and I'm so happy to see
the two of you.

Speaker 3 (15:59):
We are excited to see you. I'm excited to have
you on. But honestly, first I just wanted to say
thank you. We love every time we get to see
you and hang it and do all the things. So
thank you for coming and hanging in our space.

Speaker 5 (16:10):
Listen, I feel the exact same way, and I uh,
I'm so happy they get to do it.

Speaker 3 (16:15):
We met at an event and at that point it
was our first time coming to the New York Stock Exchange,
being in the building at the bell. It was a
crossover at Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. So talk to
us at about how you've like kind of navigated what
that looked like, how women's sports became part of your life,
and like paint that full picture for us.

Speaker 5 (16:33):
It was sort of.

Speaker 6 (16:34):
Really serendipitous on how the NYSC became such a platform
for women's sports. You know, at the NSC, we were
looking at ways that we could really just kind of
open up the New York Stock Exchange to broader audiences
to women really just to kind of lift up the
profile of it and make it more approachable, bring people

(16:56):
in that had it necessarily had been to the Exchange.
That I access to the Exchange, and I was also
going through like a personal journey where I had started
really thinking about, you know, in my own life, where
do I want to spend my own time outside of work,
Like where do I want to make my own investments
outside of work. And Laura Corni and I, who's a

(17:17):
very good friend of mine, a dear friend, were chatting.
This was a few years ago, and we were just
kind of chatting about both of these topics.

Speaker 5 (17:24):
This was pre Deep.

Speaker 6 (17:25):
Blue, pre summit, this is before all of it. And
she said, you know, let me tell you a little
bit about sort of what I've been focused on around
women's sports. And she started just giving me the ecosystem,
the landscape around the needs around women's sports, around the
visibility that's needed around women's sports, around the investment around
women's sports. You know, I didn't play sports growing up,

(17:47):
you know, I was always very very active. But what
I really understood, like I understood the problem. I got
the assignment. I was like, oh, I get it. I
get what the issue is beyond just the pay that
you know, in compensation that everybody knew about. And it
really was a light bulb for me because we had
started really focusing at the Exchange around female founders, healthcare
kind of these sort of obvious places, and women's sports

(18:11):
became sort of that third leg of the stool as
a way to really do our part at the exchange
to just kind of open up people's eyes to like
the need around the investment there. And so we started slowly,
we just kind of started inviting athletes and organizations to
come and ring the bell and host and it kind
of just took on a life of its own and
really started to raise visibility around it to the business

(18:33):
and finance you know community that around this investment opportunity
around women's sports and creating visibility for it. And so
it was it became sort of this really special i
think platform and partnership between the two kind of industries.

Speaker 4 (18:47):
And you touched on just now the problem that is
existing within youth sports, particularly pertaining to girls, right, and
how girls are dropping out of sports at an unprecedented
rate by the time they're twelve. And you look at
kids who played sports growing up or you don't you
don't have to have been a collegiate or professional athlete
to fall within the bucket of what we're seeing, like
research wise, the number of women who identify as athletes

(19:09):
or played sports who go on to then be c
suite or decision makers or you know, empowering leaders within
the business community. And you look at how those kids
are dropping out of sports now and it becomes such
a bigger problem, right And that's a lot of what
Elsie and I have been talking about is how Okay,
it's not just a sports problem. It's girls who then
don't go on to be change makers in the business community.

(19:31):
And look at all the women who are in positions
of power within the within the business community right now.

Speaker 6 (19:35):
I think you hit the nail on the head. I mean,
it is such a problem. Like when you think about
girls growing up. I look at like my nieces and
my nephews, and you see kids that play sports when
they're younger. You see it in terms of like their
leadership even just like early like abilities to like negotiate,
you know, like confidence, asking for what they want, like

(19:56):
going out there and sort of like being okay with
like learning.

Speaker 1 (19:59):
How to lose.

Speaker 5 (20:00):
It is so important.

Speaker 6 (20:02):
When Lauren and I were originally talking about that, we
really started talking around like the pipeline and you just
think about that pipeline of young girls all the way
through high school into college. You know, I look at volleyball,
you know, is one of the biggest sports for young girls,
and that pipeline for college and if you remove those
girls from playing, it removes them from college and so

(20:23):
on and so on and so on, and I think
it is such a huge problem, and I think you
hit Madison the nail on the head in terms of,
like what gets me really fired up about it is
that pipeline in terms of education, in terms of self worth, confidence, value, leadership, abilities,
certain skill sets and then bringing those into the workforce.
I mean, that is what is so critical, and that

(20:44):
ultimately is I think what's going to start to really
move the needle when you start to see, like you know,
we all have young kids. Like when you see like
our young kids and like that generation start to move
into the workforce later in life, you know the role
that sports plays on that completely.

Speaker 3 (20:59):
Yeah, I mean you know it as well from a
different perspective, right, Like you are a woman who has
pioneered in a very male dominated industry as much as
women's sports. As women's sports, it's a male dominated industry.
It's not meant for us, it's not built for us,
and we have to actually be like structure breakers to
get forward in it. So as you go through that,
and you kind of like or like you said, build

(21:20):
a stool that those three legs of the stool. It's
all really centric around women's issues, rights, support, health, sports,
all these things. What brings you to that place to
have that confidence to then carry women with you as
the CMO this massively male dominated industry.

Speaker 5 (21:39):
You know, I think it's a few things. I think.

Speaker 6 (21:42):
First of all, I think it all starts with having
female mentors and having people you can look up too
from a very very young age. You know, I was
just texting with my sixteen year old niece, and I
think about the role that I play in her life,
you know, and frankly the role that she plays in mind.
You know, But I think, you know, she looks around
and she you know, she has lots of ants and uncles,
and she looks around at all of her aunts, and

(22:04):
everybody sort of is confident, and you know, is authentic
and kind and compassionate. And so from a very young age,
you know, having those role models I think is important
for me. I remember just being right out of college
and in my first or second job living in Chicago,
and I was invited to speak at like a women's

(22:24):
organization at all a local college in Chicago, and I
walked in and just like having that platform to be
able to talk to these women about confidence, about how
to feel really good about themselves when they go on interviews,
about all the.

Speaker 5 (22:38):
Opportunities that are in front of them.

Speaker 6 (22:40):
And I was doing it because I was invited to
do it, and I really enjoyed it. But I look
back on that now and I think about the role
that I played and being able to serve in that function,
and that's taken me throughout my career. Like I am, yes,
very happy to navigate in a male dominated organization, and
I think there's certain skills and personalities that do better

(23:00):
in those environments than others, and I have personally thrived
in those environments.

Speaker 5 (23:04):
But I think at.

Speaker 6 (23:06):
My core, I am a woman's woman and I am
like the first person to cheerlead and be really excited
for people. And I think that there's plenty of success
to go around for everybody, but I think that starts
with like having like real confidence in who you are,
and I think that starts from having good examples growing up.

Speaker 1 (23:22):
So I love that you just said that.

Speaker 4 (23:24):
I wanted to make a point to say a little
note to you because I feel that you and LC
are so similar in this way, but it is so
rare particularly in our field. You both I've been just
blown away and impressed by you by the way that
you go out of your way.

Speaker 1 (23:39):
Almost to include people.

Speaker 4 (23:41):
You are both women for women, and it's so impressive
because it's just a breath of fresh air.

Speaker 1 (23:48):
Right especially in the world of sports, it feels like.

Speaker 4 (23:50):
Women have to work that much harder and do that
much more, and then when they get to the top,
they forget about continuing to pave the way and make
space for others. And you both do that so well,
why is that so important and where does that come from?
Because truly not enough women do it.

Speaker 6 (24:03):
Yeah. Well, first of all, thank you so much for
saying that and feeling that and all the things. And
I think that is probably one of that was sort
of like an early unifying fact between Laura and I
and our friendship. You know, to me, it's kind of
a no brainer. I remember early in my career a
woman saying to me, there's plenty of success for everybody.

(24:25):
It is not just you know, one person gets to have,
you know, all the eggs. Everybody can have a shot
at that, and that really stayed with me. But the
other thing that I always take with me is I
try and be really compassionate. And I try and be
really empathetic to try and look at like where are
other people coming from in any given moment. And I

(24:45):
do think if you sort of come at it that way,
it's hard to be kind of nasty to someone, right
if you're like, wait, they're just having a really crappy day,
you know. I think like that always kind of grounds
me and puts me back in like this is not
about you, or they're not trying to to compete with you,
or whatever it might be. So I tend to kind
of go back to that point around like empathy and compassion.

(25:06):
And then the third point, and I always tell this
to my teams, is assume noble intent. Like I always
say this, like, assume most people aren't showing up to
like make your life miserable or make it difficult for
you to be you know, successful, or to get ahead
or whatever it might be. Some people certainly, like we
don't live in a perfect, perfect world. But I tend
to try and come not from a place of like
being naive or ignorant to it, but just like assume

(25:28):
noble intent. Assume like maybe they've got like crop going
on in their life. Or you know, like their kids
sick or you know whatever.

Speaker 5 (25:34):
I think that that.

Speaker 6 (25:35):
All goes back to having people around you, you know,
growing up, and having examples growing up and early in
your career. Like I was really fortunate to have mentors
in my career that were both men and women. But
I look back at like the women who mentored me
early on, many of whom I still I just saw,
you know, one last week, and I'm having you know,

(25:56):
drinks with another one next week who really played a
role in helping me early in my career. To validate
that thinking around, there's plenty of success to go around
for everyone. And here's how you sort of think about
more is more, empathy, more is more. So I think
that it starts early and then I think it becomes stimulative.

(26:16):
I think throughout your career, at least it has for me.

Speaker 1 (26:19):
Well, I love all of that.

Speaker 4 (26:20):
And someone a while back told me that they were
told ones that success is measured not by what you have,
but by what you do, most notably the impact that
you make on the lives of other people. And so
I just wanted to call it that to attention because
that event that we went to in New York City
that day where Anya and I met you and we
met Elsie truly changed the trajectory of our lives. We
have this podcast, and we've been we've been elevated into

(26:43):
a totally different realm within the women's sports world. And
we've existed in New York City for almost ten years
as athletes, but we haven't had anyone bring us in
and we haven't had that platform. It became a completely
different experience for us and an opportunity to then elevate
hockey in a way that it hadn't been. Right, Elsie
now bought sees tickets to the New York Sirens, and
so I just wanted to say thank you because that

(27:04):
was incredible, but also shine a light on how just
having a little empathy, like you said, can truly go
a long way, and that's what the world needs more of,
especially in this post COVID era that we're currently living in.

Speaker 5 (27:15):
Yeah, oh well again, thank you.

Speaker 6 (27:16):
I'm so happy And to play, you know, even like
a little piece in someone's life around elevating them brings
me such joy. And to do that with the two
of you, I mean only Gonnas like Chef's kiss on that,
like that makes me so happy and thank you for
sharing them.

Speaker 5 (27:31):
Well, thank you.

Speaker 3 (27:33):
And the other thing I kind of want to like
navigate us down to, because I'm hearing it while you're
saying some of those bits, is like, you know, sometimes
it's just not their day and it's not about you.
You went through kind of a longer journey to get
to momming and to go through a fertility journey, and
I felt like at that point in my life because
I did as well, or we did as well, you know,

(27:55):
we had to walk into a clinic because no matter
how hard we tried, Maddie and I just weren't making
a baby.

Speaker 1 (28:00):
And so we.

Speaker 3 (28:01):
Walked into this clinic and they.

Speaker 4 (28:02):
Said it, thank you for not acknowledging that stuff.

Speaker 1 (28:08):
She's like, I'm going to leave that there.

Speaker 3 (28:10):
So we go into the clinic and they said, oh,
you're young, you're healthy, it's going to be fine, like
give me all the confidence in the world. And then
it took longer than I would have expected. And I
think that that that journey taught me a lot of like, oh,
I'm taking this out on random people, so maybe when
someone takes it out on me, they're going through their
own things. So long story to the question of talk

(28:33):
to us a little about that journey for you. You know,
what brought you there, how did you get through it,
and what did it look like.

Speaker 6 (28:38):
Yeah, oh my journey was long and winding, as many
many peoples are, so you know similar. I went into
it thinking, oh, this is going to be no problem.
I was, I don't know, thirty five at the time,
and immediately started having miscarriages. I had miscarriages for a while,

(28:59):
few miscarriages, and then got cancer, a really rare cancer.
Throughout this entire process, and from the cancer, I then
went into three rounds of IBF, three rounds of fertility treatments.
So it took us about five years to get my
little munchkin, my son, who's now almost five. You know,

(29:21):
I couldn't catch a break through the whole thing.

Speaker 5 (29:23):
I mean, it was.

Speaker 6 (29:24):
It was challenging from start to finish, including I had
a really really challenging pregnancy, including three weeks beforehand they
were like, you know, we found something. We don't know
how we're going to get the baby out. We need
to go on bed rest for a few weeks until
we can figure out how to get the baby out
of your body. And I was like, wait what I mean.
It was tough from start to finish, but like, look
when he showed up for me, it was all worth it.

(29:46):
But you know, I always reflect on that time because,
you know, working through my career, we had intentionally and
I had intentionally decided like I didn't have a yearning
to have a baby early on. I always might want
to have a family, but I didn't have that yearning
from a very young young age to carry a baby,
to have a baby, you know. And so and I
was really really focused on my career. I always have

(30:07):
been and continue to be. But when I got sick,
when I got cancer, throughout that journey, I remember having
to go in and tell my team that I was sick.
I share the news with them. I tell them I'm
going to be out for a while. And as we
were finishing up the discussion, you know, we were in
a conference room. I had to go in just to

(30:27):
work to tell them, and as we're finishing up the
you know, me sharing this with them, they all sort
of stood up in a line as they were leaving
and wanted a hug from me. And I at that
time in my career, you know, at this point, I'm
about thirty six is somewhere around there. And I sort
of had this like weird philosophy where I didn't hug
at work and I think that that and I'm like,
as I think the two of you know, I'm like

(30:48):
a big year of life, Like I like, I'm a hugger,
Like I'm pretty warm.

Speaker 5 (30:53):
But I was like, I don't hug.

Speaker 6 (30:54):
I don't hug at work, And I think part of
that was like I'm trying to make my way in
a in a male dominated organization, and I have an
image to you know, to uphold, and they all needed
a hug for me, I could tell. And the thing
is is I needed the hugs, like I really needed
the hugs. And I hugged every single one of them
as they walked out. And that moment changed me in
every way in my life. It changed me professionally, it

(31:16):
changed me personally. It changed how I showed up because
it really made me think about the fact in sort
of a silly way, I was like, wait, I am
a hugger, like and I needed those hugs, Like why
am I not showing up as my most authentic self?

Speaker 5 (31:28):
And it changed everything.

Speaker 6 (31:29):
It changed how I showed up very much at work,
you know, like I, you know, when I came back
from that experience, I was able to kind of lean
into who I was a lot more and that changed
my management style, It changed the cultures that I wanted
to work in. It changed how I show up in
my own friendships. But it really was like a long journey.
And then when I had my son, I was forty,
and what that did was really allowed me to sort

(31:50):
of talk about it. I was much further along in
my career than had I had him when I was
in my twenties or early thirties, and I was able
to serve as an example of again, I wanted to
be my most authentic self, So talking about my son,
talking about my experiences. You know, I had him during COVID,
and so you know, there were many times during COVID
and we were working from home where he was on

(32:11):
my hip in calls, and I remember very explicitly saying like,
I'm going to just show it the way that it
actually is, because I want my team to be able
to understand what this experience is like and not feel
so isolating on that they're going through it alone.

Speaker 3 (32:24):
The same thing happened for us Whalen is just just
a little bit younger. I felt like COVID momming was
so real, and I felt kind of how you're explaining.
I felt for a period of time ashamed, like I
don't want someone to see my kid. I don't want
someone to be distracted by my children or my momming
or my you know, my messiness or whatever. But we're
all on camera, and we're all home, and I was

(32:46):
in this specific office with the baby swing right there,
and I would have whalan swinging while I'm on these calls.
And I started by like hiding him or whatever because
Madison was at hockey and that was like bubble season,
so she couldn't be around and she had to test
every day, and we all kind of like stayed isolated
in this home.

Speaker 1 (33:05):
And then I remember like flipping a switch.

Speaker 3 (33:07):
Like I'm a mom. What am I doing? Why can't
I be the mom that's on the work call? Why
can't I be this thing? And so like what a shift.
And also when you go through all of that, you
recognize how much to your point, you just need to
be yourself.

Speaker 5 (33:22):
And if you show MP as you.

Speaker 3 (33:23):
And you as a good person, and we know you
is a good person, you're a great person, but why
not why hide that person? And I think mothering is
such a transferable skill. And we talked a little bit
off camera, but I kind of want to talk about
it as we're all together. Your son is on the
spectrum and it's something that you embrace. Talk to us
a little about that. The experience is maybe how that
has shifted and remodeled now that he's getting older and

(33:46):
things kind of change, and how you're going through it.

Speaker 6 (33:49):
So, yeah, so my son is almost five. He is
on this spectrum. He's very high functioning. He is absolutely
like the most delicious human ever. But again, their journey
to figure that out, there were sort of signs early
on that you know, people always say like there's kind
of a constellation when when your child is neurodivergent that
you can kind of just piece together different things. And

(34:12):
so we went on a really kind of again winding
path to really understand our son and going through that
experience and getting to have the honor of being my
son's mom again completely changed me for the better in
every single way. My son really shows me what it

(34:32):
means to see somebody for who they are and not
want to change them and not want to fix them
and not want to have them be anybody other than
who they are, and create a world in an environment
where they can be their best and most authentic self.
It's been this really unbelievable experience to go through with

(34:56):
my son and to create a world in which he
can thrive and and not just survive, but just thrive
and be himself. And I do think society is in
a different place now, like neurodivergence. It's such a common
topic and people talk about it so much now. When
we first went through this, I was really not sure
how I wanted to show up in the world around
it and talk about it. And for me again, I'm like, look,

(35:18):
we are who we are.

Speaker 5 (35:19):
We show up as who we are.

Speaker 6 (35:20):
And I think as a mom, at least for me,
my job is to create a world that my son
feels loved and safe and secure and confident. And you know,
I feel very blessed and privileged that I can create
a world for him that you know, gives him the
scaffolding that he needs when he needs it, and also
gives him the independence for him to thrive in areas

(35:42):
that he just you know, kind of sores.

Speaker 5 (35:45):
Well.

Speaker 1 (35:45):
Firstly, thank you for sharing all of that.

Speaker 4 (35:47):
I think that it was beautifully said, and I think
so often we talk about how kids change our day
to day kind of our structure, but we don't look
at how it's shaping us as humans. And I think
for me, especially through my hockey journey, like I realized
how big a part of my life first it started,
I guess with whalan Like as soon as I became

(36:09):
a mom, I didn't really know what to expect because
we were going through all of that during COVID. So
I literally went to the appointment with Anya when she
got pregnant, and then I couldn't go to any more
doctor appointments, so I felt very disconnected from the process.

Speaker 1 (36:21):
So it wasn't until like.

Speaker 4 (36:22):
I held him for the first time and we're bringing
him home, and I'm like, oh my goodness, Now everything
I do matters. And I've always been passionate about like
community work and things like that through hockey, But it
wasn't until having my son that I was like, this
has all become just so much more important. And we
look at our life from a little bit different lens.
Right Our kids are growing up with two moms, so

(36:43):
there's different things that we have to consider. And to
your point, it's constantly when I make decisions in my life,
when I make decisions away from my home as a human,
how that's going to come back and impact my kids?
And I think that's so hugely important and maybe not
something that people who aren't parents consider. What are some

(37:14):
ways that you show up as a mom that they'll
allow you to make space for your son?

Speaker 6 (37:18):
First of all, what a eloquent way of like talking
about like the challenges of like parenting, especially when there's
certain challenges to go through.

Speaker 5 (37:26):
And I feel that way.

Speaker 6 (37:27):
I'm a single mom, and I feel that way to like,
you know, how do I how do I show up
for him in a way that isn't confusing the fact
that you know he has two homes as an example,
like and I and I think that those are all
really real and relevant.

Speaker 5 (37:40):
You know.

Speaker 6 (37:40):
For me, I always talk about like this is going
to sound really silly, but I so I love to
get up early in the morning, and I have since
I was young, Like I am a I am an
early bird.

Speaker 5 (37:49):
I go to sleep early and I wake up.

Speaker 3 (37:51):
Really we don't know, you, we don't know.

Speaker 6 (37:54):
I think the first time I said let's for let's
schedule a podcast. It was like I can do eight
in the morning.

Speaker 3 (37:58):
It was six o'clock in the morning.

Speaker 6 (38:02):
So I wake up really early, which is funny because
my mom I remember my mom doing this too. And
I wake up, I have my my coffee, I meditate,
I journal, and I work out, like and I am
really protective of my space in the morning. And then
I love that, by the way, I am so protective
of that, and I find when I'm not able to

(38:23):
do that that I don't show up, as you know,
in the same way. But when I do that, which
is generally you know, almost every day, I can really
show up for my son, like I can be present,
I'm there, and it's just kind of like having that
time to myself. And I also know like it's time
to tap out, you know, like sometimes you just get
like frustrated, or you're push to your limits, or like

(38:44):
it's just a bad day or you know, whatever it
might be. And I know, like I just need a minute.
And I am not above saying, you know what, I'm
going to turn on like a video for you to
watch because I need forty five minutes to like take
a nap, like I'm a forty five year old mom
and on a long weekend, I'm like, I need a nap.

Speaker 5 (39:01):
Like it is so tiring to keep up with like
a five year.

Speaker 6 (39:04):
Old, you know, yes, And so I think I like
really try and kind of be good to myself and
give myself space when I know that I need it.
But like that morning ritual, like I really try and
preserve and protect it, and it really does kind of
help me show up. And then the other thing I
found is like when I'm at work, Like I am
at work, I'm all in and when I come home

(39:25):
from work, I might only have an hour or so
with him before he goes to bed, but like when
I'm home with him, like that phone is down, I
am totally present and I really try and show up
to just be there when I'm with him and just
kind of having I think, I think it's boundaries, Like
those boundaries around it has really really helped me to
kind of try. I mean, I'm certainly not perfect by

(39:46):
any stretch of the imagination, but like really try and
show up for him and for myself when I need to.

Speaker 1 (39:52):
How did you discover that that was the thing that
you needed?

Speaker 4 (39:54):
And then how do you continue to truly respect that space,
because I think that's something so important for moms is
that you have that space because if you're not your.

Speaker 1 (40:01):
Best, you're not going to be the best mom. Yeah,
and so how do you do that?

Speaker 4 (40:05):
And what advice do you have for women who might
be struggling with that to find that space for themselves,
and how they create those boundaries and let the people
around them their village know that they need help in
those moments.

Speaker 5 (40:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (40:15):
Well, I think I think your last point on that,
I think, first of all, asking for help when you
need it is really important. So you know, I'm a
single mom, I'm divorced. I my son's dad and I
are still close friends. And even as you know, I
have something, you know, like a personal thing going on
this weekend where all of a sudden, I have to
travel on Sunday and I have my son this weekend,

(40:36):
and I texted as dad and I said, oh my goodness,
can you take them for a few hours so I
can do this? And so we really try and like
pinch hit for each other. But I do think it's
it's being comfortable asking for help when you need it,
I absolutely think is one I think also being in
tune with yourself on what you need. Like everybody needs
different things, you know. Like I sort of had my

(40:57):
morning routine for many years before I had my son.
And you know, as I had mentioned my mom, I
have three other siblings, so my mom was a mom
of four. My dad used to work all the time,
he traveled a ton. And I remember my mom like
I would come down in the morning and she would
be drinking her coffee at the kitchen table, and you
could just sort of know, and she was very, very present.
You just knew that she was that that isn't we're

(41:19):
not going to talk to mom right now. She's gonna
have her coffee. And she would say, let me have
my coffee and then we'll talk. And I find that
I even say that to my son if he wakes
up really early, I'll say, Mommy needs her coffee and
then we can play, you know. And so like I
think it's sort of knowing what those things are that
you need and then being really good about about asking
for it. So like even I mean this sounds crazy,

(41:39):
like my son will go through phases where I just
know he's going to wake up really early in the morning,
and so like I'll set my alarm clock a little
bit earlier so I have that time. And then again
if I like, if I know that I am like
completely at my wits end or my max like, I
will give him a video and I will go take
a nap, you know, and just sort of say, do
your thing. So I think it's asking for help. I

(41:59):
think I think it's surrounding yourself to the extent that
you can with people that you trust, who you can
be again your most authentic self and not feel guilty
or bad or any of those things for asking for
help when you need it.

Speaker 3 (42:11):
Yeah, I mean, and I find like, at least now
that Wingland's a little older, I can explain to him
what's happening for me. So, like the other day, he's
doing the thing where he has the bedtime, he gets
put to bed, he gets up, he wants to read
a book, he wants to cuddle, he wants to get up,
he wants to go back to bed, he wants to
Like it's a two hour process. Right now, we're in
like that mode. Yeah, and that mode stinks, but stinks

(42:34):
so hard, so stinky. But so I went to put
him in to bed, put him down, up down, and
I swear an hour and a half later, I was
just like fried. I said, dude, you're in bed. I'm done.
We're not cuddling. And he was like, you're bad mommy,
You're bad mommy. That's what he hit me with right
off the jump. And I slammed the door, and then
I took a deep breath and then I walked back

(42:55):
in and I said, I'm not perfect, but I'm You
can do bad things and not be a bad person.
You can behave poorly and still be good. I think
just being honest about the problem sometimes is okay. And
now that he's a little older, he'll be like, like,
I'll be like I need good mommy time, which means
I need time so that i can be a good
mommy because right now I'm not my best mommy.

Speaker 1 (43:16):
And then he'll be like, okay, you go do your thing.

Speaker 3 (43:18):
I'm like, thank you for the permission.

Speaker 5 (43:21):
Four year old? Yeah that is.

Speaker 6 (43:23):
I think that's so sweet and so real, Like I
took first of all that the bedtime routine, like when
they don't want to go to sleep is so hard,
and I have the same thing, Like it's it's amazing
the level in which you can like talk to a
four year old, you know, he sort of toy, but
where you can reason. And I have said the same
thing to my son right in where I'm like, Mommy
is frustrated, Like I'm really frustrated, you know, and they

(43:46):
understand what that means to a certain extent. But I
think it's so true to have those conversations. And that's
something like for as present and wonderful as my mom was,
I lost my mom and ay years ago, but for
how present she was when we were growing up, I
don't remember, like that just wasn't generationally the types of
conversations that our parents were having with us. And I
think that that is so so important, and I think

(44:07):
in an interesting way it sort of shows like the
importance of like talking about your emotions and how to
communicate and all those things that I think are really
important life lessons.

Speaker 3 (44:16):
I totally agree, and I think I love that. I
like the space that we're making, Like new age parenting
is is so hard because my mom would just like
whip out a wooden spoon and like fix the problem
pretty quickly, and so it takes a lot longer to
like reason through an issue. But I really appreciate it,
and so all of that is a humongous part of

(44:37):
what I believe has made us both or you specifically,
and that I can steal in chair but like a
true compassionate person and looking at all things being equal.
As I kind of jump back into the women's sports conversation,
we've talked about this before. You know, when you come
to women's sports, especially with your tenure with finance and
knowing kind of all of that, and we look at

(44:59):
female athletes and it almost like it almost stresses me
out a little bit, the gaps of support. And so
this is where like my mom brain like fires, but
like the support and financial literacy that women's athletes don't
yet have and the support that they aren't getting. So
I know this is like a little bit of it,
a divergent when we were talking about, but kind of
all wraps in that same picture of the care, Like

(45:22):
I think your care is so high. So talk to
us a little bit about that conversation, how we kind
of like weave that into what's going on in women's
sports right now, especially as so many athletes are up
leveling so quickly, like it's insane.

Speaker 6 (45:36):
Yeah, first of all, I think it's an incredibly important
conversation around financial literacy and women's sports. I think, even
taking a step back, the conversation around financial literacy in general,
I think is really critical. Like I think about, you know,
when I was sent to college. I remember, you know,
moving into college, and I think my mom was like,
oh wait, I need to show you how to write
a check and balance a check book. Like that was

(45:58):
my introduction into like financial life literacy, which was you know,
which is nothing. And I look now at my son
and he thinks, to buy something, all you need to
do is take my phone and tap something, you know,
and like all of a sudden, by miracle, you get,
you know, a toy. And so I think financial literacy
in general is really crucial to start at a young age,

(46:21):
and I think women's sports is way behind in terms
of integrating that into not just professional programs, but programs
on the university level too. Like, I think that it's
really critical to start to integrate financial literacy in the
same way that many men's leagues do. And I think
so much of that is around you know, yes, there's

(46:44):
investments and things that are more complicated, and I think
that's an important piece of it. But if you just
go back to the basics around negotiations, you know, many
professional athletes need to be able to negotiate their contracts
post their professional career, yes, right, need to be able
to understand what their management team are talking about. And
especially as female athletes, when you start to layer in

(47:06):
things like fertility, fertility is insanely expensive, childcare is insanely expensive.
Like how do we start to prepare for something like that?
What do savings look like? Like? There are many athletes
who are going to be able to go off and
you know, continue their career Madison and Anya like you,
guys like that will continue to sort of have a
lens into sports, but many are going to go into
a corporate environment which operates very differently, right, and so

(47:29):
like being able to navigate the evolution of what that
means and to have financial foundation and not just the basics,
but then being able to take that and say, like,
what does an investment strategy look like? How do I
find a financial advisor? What does it mean in terms
of like, oh, I'm making a little bit of money.
And you see this with professional men's teams all the time,
and all of a sudden they're going out and they're
buying like beautiful cars, which is fine, but it's like,

(47:52):
how do you create a foundation that allows you to
buy a beautiful car and also allows you to sort
of create the future that you need in a foundation.
Like all of that is tied back to financial literacy,
and I feel really passionate around the importance of that,
particularly around women's sports, and integrating that into the women's

(48:12):
leagues I think is really critical.

Speaker 4 (48:14):
Interestingly enough, there's a stat I believe it's from ESPN,
and I don't know what research or study was put
out based upon, but like seventy percent of professional athletes
experience some form of financial hardship post their career, like currently,
And that's probably looking at mostly men's athletes, but I'm
sure women are in.

Speaker 1 (48:35):
There as well.

Speaker 4 (48:35):
You think about how much money these people are making, men, women, anyone,
and then the fact that they experience financial hardship post
their career is because we don't talk about it enough.
And like to your point, you go out and you
buy a car, well, you're probably borrowing money from an
agent who gave you a loan with a crazy interest
rate and you got it and you just paying it back.
Houses you name it. I mean I went to a

(48:56):
big ten school with a huge football team, University Wisconsin.
We didn't have any kind of financial literacy or preparation
or this is what life is really like. And I
had a full scholarship to Wisconsin, so every month I
was getting a check from the school.

Speaker 1 (49:11):
My school was.

Speaker 4 (49:12):
Free, food was free, books were free. I was living
in a penthouse apartment. So I lived that life for
five years. And then you graduate, and granted, I come
from a very privileged background, so I by no means
am I saying that I had it tough. But you
start to realize, oh wait, that's not how the world works.
You think about athletes who come from very impoverished or

(49:33):
underprivileged situations and then they're thrust into this environment where
they might not even have a suit at home, but
all of a sudden, they're living this lavish life. And
then they graduate, maybe they go pro, maybe they don't,
And we have no conversation about what that money means.

Speaker 1 (49:46):
You know, a four to one K program.

Speaker 4 (49:48):
I bet you at least twenty percent of female athletes
have no concept of what that means.

Speaker 3 (49:54):
I bet that them hire. Unfortunately, I was trying to
be nice.

Speaker 4 (49:57):
I'm just saying, but like you know, you know what
I mean, like the money in your pocket, that's not
the life that you're going to live forever.

Speaker 1 (50:03):
And yeah, you know, I'm shocked our league.

Speaker 4 (50:05):
You know, we do. We do a great job three
day orientation, but there's no conversation about business post playing
or you know, how to set yourself up for success.
And it seems like such a solvable and quote unquote
easy thing to do, but we don't do it and
we don't think about it, and then these athletes get
themselves into positions where it's just almost impossible sometimes to

(50:27):
get out of it.

Speaker 6 (50:28):
Yeah, I think you're so right, and it's sort of
it's one part financial literacy and it's one part business savvy.
You know, you're absolutely right, and I think that, you know,
I think that the point around the financial hardship is
always so interesting because this sort of obvious use case
is you have somebody who all of a sudden makes
a ton of money and then doesn't know how to

(50:50):
invest it. Like that's kind of one use case. You
have another use case, which I think is just as
big and probably even.

Speaker 5 (50:57):
Bigger in terms of.

Speaker 6 (51:00):
The number of people at an impacts, which is you
have these kind of cocooned worlds, you know, within sports,
where you don't have to think about the contracts, you
have people doing things for you.

Speaker 5 (51:11):
You're on a program where.

Speaker 6 (51:12):
Things are kind of set up for you, whether it's
financial you know specifically, whether it's around like business management.
And then all of a sudden, you're transitioning into your
next stage of career, which happens for everybody, right, whether
you play for twenty years or you play for eight,
you know you're eventually going to have to evolve into
some next stage of your career. And again, whether that's

(51:35):
staying in sports or evolving into a different type of
industry or role or whatever it might be. And I
think it's that world. It's going from that like sort
of taken care of environment where you don't have to
think about a lot of things. Now all of a
sudden having to be your own best advocate, your most
important advocate, and not having the tools and the skills

(51:57):
to be able to do that for yourself. And I
think that is a really really big opportunity to be
able to solve And I agree, I agree Maddie like that.
I think that that is actually not that hard to
incorporate into the leagues, into the teams, et cetera. Right,
I think that that is I frankly think it's kind
of low hanging fruit, and I hope to see over
the next few years it start to get I know,
people are talking about it more, but I hope that

(52:18):
that becomes more of standard practice in different programs, and
much more than a three day program, which is, you know,
not even skimming the surface.

Speaker 3 (52:27):
A little symposium, right exactly.

Speaker 4 (52:30):
Yeah, I think it's just hard, Like you have, you
take so many people, and you look at a lot
of professional athletes. There's anomalies everywhere. I think maybe most
commonly the background of privilege comes into play in hockey
just because of the nature of the sport.

Speaker 1 (52:46):
It's expensive to play, et cetera.

Speaker 4 (52:48):
But in a lot of these sports, you see so
many people just come into unfathomable wealth in their opinion,
and then it's just gone. We're talking about generational wealth.
Then that comes into play. Yeah, one person just to
making a choice rather than buying a Bentley, hiring someone
to manage their money, and then in four years they
can buy twenty Bentley's right, right.

Speaker 3 (53:08):
The converse piece of that is that Juan Soto might
make what is it, seven hundred and sixty five million dollars?

Speaker 1 (53:17):
Is it horrible if I don't know who that is.

Speaker 3 (53:19):
Yes, he just was signed to the Mets. That's a
big deal.

Speaker 5 (53:22):
Okay, basically this is a judgment.

Speaker 3 (53:24):
Freeze, Yeah, this is a judgment.

Speaker 1 (53:25):
You're safe now.

Speaker 3 (53:27):
Juan Soto signs for seven hundred and sixty three million
dollars or something like that. Even your highest paid WNBA
on the max salary at two point fifty or something,
still can't retire with fu money after a ten year career. Taxes,
you have, the agent fees, you have trying to live
your life. You have all these things. And so when

(53:49):
we talk about financial literacy, especially for female athletes, it's
the stark reality that the day you retire, even on
the highest max salary in the WNBA, you are getting
a job right off the jump. And what that looks
like and how you do that is really really hard.

Speaker 6 (54:08):
Well, it points to a bigger problem, I think, which
is that just female athletes at large are just.

Speaker 5 (54:15):
Grossly underpaid.

Speaker 6 (54:17):
Right like, which is like a podcast for another day,
because we could spend an hour just talking about you know,
the out how outrageous that is in terms of compensation levels.
But I think you're one hundred percent right, and I
think you know, really what we're talking about is financial
literacy in women's sports has to solve for where the
industry is today, which is women aren't making what they

(54:42):
should be making at all. Right, it's like, how do
we maximize what you are making right now? And also,
by the way, working as an industry to improve those
compensation levels significantly and then changing the financial litter discussions
around that totally.

Speaker 3 (55:01):
I mean, if you look across all women's sports leagues,
right the WNBAB being the like flagship we're all chasing that.
You look at the new WL, the PWHL, you have,
the NWSL, you have the volleyball leagues, like you have
all these leagues, I bet you the average income for
all of those leagues combined is not a six figure deal,

(55:23):
not even close. I bet you it's maybe below the
US median poverty line if I had to guess. And
it's awful because what we require females to do to
validate and justify their right to be an athlete is
a full time, if not full time plus job and
then they get compensation at this incredibly low rate. And

(55:44):
that's not like a SOB story. That's the reality.

Speaker 4 (55:48):
And to the biggest comment that you see I think publicly,
at least as an athlete who's been on the receiving
end of it, is well, they don't make money. So
until they make money, they can't get paid more, which
is just frankly.

Speaker 1 (56:01):
Like hot take bullshit.

Speaker 4 (56:02):
Because there are women's sports teams who do make money,
and by the way, there are men's sports teams who
do not.

Speaker 5 (56:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (56:07):
Fact, so it exists everywhere. I mean, I think that
there's at least three or four teams in every major
sports league with the exception of maybe the NFL, who
lose money on the men's side. On the women's side,
I don't know what the number is. I'm sure it's more.
But there are women's sports teams who make money. That's
not the point, right, because how do you make money?

(56:28):
Ticket sales? Yeah, maybe, but we all know that. It's
it's the partnerships, right, it's partnerships, it's media rights, it's
all these things. And companies need to stop looking at
women's sports as or and they need to look at
it as and because you can invest in women's sports
and in men's sports well.

Speaker 6 (56:44):
And I think you're hitting on a broader theme at
a societal level in terms of women and men in
any workforce. You know, I think that that has been
the I think a big theme over the last few
years has been around, you know, women being underpaid and
women not getting the opportunity to go for the same roles.
And I think that you know, you're highlighting really valid

(57:06):
points that not only impact women's sports, but really impact
I think the workforce in general. And I think you know,
your point around men and women's sports is being two
different investments. You know, I was having a conversation not
that long ago, and I said, the way to sort
of think about it is you don't compare, you know,
investments in ets with investments in stocks. They're different investment vehicles.

(57:31):
And I think that that's a really important distinction that
I do think the market's like starting to understand a
little bit more. And I think, you know, Deep Blue
and Laura Guaranty and companies like like that are doing
a really good job on getting that message out into
the marketplace. And I think media agencies are starting to
pick that message up and really understand the story around that,

(57:51):
but they really are different in investment vehicles, and I
think men and women in general need different levels of support.

Speaker 4 (57:57):
It's what we talk about when we talk about equal pay,
Like equal does not mean same, and I think that's
what sometimes people are confused upon, Like do women deserve
equal pay? Absolutely, but what does equal mean? Well, we're women,
we need access to different medical care, we have reproductive
things that are important to us. There's so much more
that goes into that. And so when we talk about

(58:18):
equal pay and what that looks like, it's equal access
to resources to put ourselves in a position to be
equally successful. And that's not just the dollar amount that's
going into your bank account. It's the investment that's going
into the athlete to give them equal opportunity to be successful.
And I think that that is lost on people sometimes
that when women are asking for equal pay, it's not

(58:39):
just I want to make the same amount of money
as Lebron James because he's making millions. Do I wish
I was making more? Yeah, But let's just start with
making the playing field level and giving us equal access
to resources to allow us to compete at the same level.
Because that's what's expected of us, and that's really hard
to do when you're working with.

Speaker 1 (58:56):
A lot less.

Speaker 3 (58:57):
Yeah, I mean it started as equitable pay, and then
equal is just an easier word. But it started with
the desire for equity. And because women's sports is thrust
to the forefront right now, it's exposing women's issues and
I love that we can talk about it, and I
love that we have a brain as intelligent as yours
to kind of fill in some gaps and color it in.

(59:18):
We truly could talk about this forever. But the way
that we end every episode and this could be, like
I said, painting with a little bit of a broad brushstroke,
but it's usually about parenting advice, and so you can
go down any pathway that you'd like, but we ask
the question, what advice have you gotten or that you
haven't gotten that you wish you'd received as you go

(59:40):
on this motherhood journey, as you start to parent in
the real world, what's something that's really stuck with you
and what's something that's been formative for you.

Speaker 6 (59:50):
Somebody gave me advice when I was pregnant and it
has really stayed with me even you know, almost five
years later. Which was, don't get so excited about the
good days and don't get so hung up on the
bad days, because every day you can wake up and
the day is going to be different. And I think
it's actually just a good lesson in life that you know,

(01:00:11):
sometimes you go through a really bad experience where my
son's having a crummy day, but you wake up the
next day and you know.

Speaker 1 (01:00:16):
It's it's all.

Speaker 6 (01:00:16):
It's it's very different. And that that really stayed with me.

Speaker 3 (01:00:21):
Well, I appreciate it so much. And just hearing you
say how much you know asking for help is important.
That's my fatal flaw. I can't ask for help. My
hair would be on fire. I could have both kids,
like I could have toilet paper on my shoe and
like running, and I still wouldn't ask anythm for help.
So every time I hear that piece of feedback, I
think I'm going to start that. So I'm going to
start that and hopefully to help you, I'm gonna hopefully

(01:00:43):
ask for help.

Speaker 5 (01:00:44):
I'm going to check in with it.

Speaker 1 (01:00:45):
You should.

Speaker 3 (01:00:45):
I appreciate that, and I appreciate the accountability and also
just all of the advice and conversation that we've had
thank you so much for joining us, and we will
absolutely be forcing you to come to a hockey game
with us.

Speaker 6 (01:00:57):
I can't wait, and thank you both so much for
having me. It was such a treat to catch up
with you guys always, and.

Speaker 5 (01:01:07):
That's all we have today.

Speaker 3 (01:01:08):
Thank you for listening.

Speaker 6 (01:01:09):
I'm Onya Packer and I'm Madison Packer and this is
These packs Puck.

Speaker 3 (01:01:18):
These pax Puck is a production of iHeart Women's Sports
in Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment.

Speaker 4 (01:01:22):
It's hosted by us Madison and Aya Packer. Emily Meronoff
is our awesome senior producer and story editor.

Speaker 1 (01:01:29):
We were mixed and mastered by Mary do.

Speaker 4 (01:01:31):
Our executive producers are Jennifer Bassett, Jesse Katz, and Ali Perry.