October 4, 2024 • 24 mins
Eve Rodsky authored “Fair Play,” a book and card deck designed to help people dive deeper into essential conversations around household equity. After a powerful discussion with Eve in a recent episode, Simone and Daniel take the opportunity to play the “Fair Play” card game, exploring personal stories about gift-giving and breakfast traditions that reveal the unseen emotional labor in family dynamics. Eve shares her insights on how the game not only helps redistribute household tasks but also fosters deeper understanding between partners!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hello Sunshine, Hey, Messi's we're back and we've got a
little treats of brighten up your weekend.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Simone, this is our first ever bonus episode, Capital B.
Speaker 3 (00:13):
I'm so here for this.
Speaker 4 (00:14):
Love a bonus, We love a bonus.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Okay, So, a couple of weeks ago, we had an
amazing conversation with Eve Rodsky. And if you haven't listened
to the episode yet, Eve's a member of the Hello
Sunshine family. She's the author of fair Play, and it
changed the cultural conversation entirely. In it, she sheds light
on all of the cognitive labor that women take on
in traditional family structures, things like planning and preparing for
(00:40):
everyday tasks like even putting sunscreen on your kids.
Speaker 4 (00:43):
That takes time.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
And she's an expert in organization, so she's talking about
everything that a household needs to function. So she didn't
just start the conversation. Eve dug in. She researched it,
and she's trying to fix the issue. She offers practical
ways that family can redistribute all of the work more equitably.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Yeah, that book, Fairplay is a New York Times bestseller
and a former Reese's Book Club pick, and there's also
a fair Play card game and a documentary. And Eve's
been really open about the backstory behind fair Play and
how all of these resources have even transformed her own
relationships and her home from the inside out, her dynamic
with her husband Seth. Us are three kids, Zach, Ben
(01:25):
and Anna. Eve told us she designed the fair Play
card game as a tool to help us navigate hard
conversations better. We actually had the opportunity to play this
game with Eve during our original conversation, but we didn't
have time to include it in our show until now.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
So today we have a very special bonus episode where
we're playing Eve's game and all of us are getting
really honest. But if you haven't listened to our first
episode with Eve, we promise you'll still be able to
follow along with this one. But definitely go check out
that original conversation If you're interested in buying Eve's game,
which I highly recommend I give it as a gift
(02:04):
to a lot of friends, especially as they get married.
You can find the link to the game in our
show notes.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
Well, let the games begin.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Here's our extended conversation with Eve Rodsky, The New York
Times best selling author of fair Play and Find Your
Unicorn Space.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
You've called fair Play a love letter to men, and
I think that's a really important part of this because
I know we can all joke about men and the
inadequacies that we feel, but we keep marrying them for
the most part, and so it's important that they're a
part of this and that it feels positive. And you
(02:41):
say that the research shows it actually is, oh absolutely so.
Speaker 5 (02:46):
Part of our research that just came out shows that
fair play works, which is very exciting and the reason
why sometimes I actually think, even though it feels so
heavy for women that the home organization is so painful
for men as well, is because they're defined in one way,
(03:07):
which is breadwinning, and actually the value of that men
bring to all those other tasks the fair Play cards
is exponential, and we see it in the research that
when men are involved in transporting their kids to school,
kids get amazing advice.
Speaker 6 (03:23):
When men are.
Speaker 5 (03:24):
Involved with cooking and allow their kids to be involved
more as opposed to women who are like, get out
of this kitchen and I don't want you being burned.
There's just so many different ways that when men are
invited into their full power in the home, not only
can women step into their full power in the world,
but children benefit, society benefits.
Speaker 6 (03:43):
It's a really beautiful thing.
Speaker 5 (03:45):
So, Danielle, when you're asking about why Fair plays a
love letter to men, I think the pain and just
being a helper is actually probably as bad as the
mental load. When you think about when men are the
ones going to the store for the mustard but have
zero context for that task. It becomes a random assignment
(04:05):
of a task. And we actually know from the organizational
management side that if you bring somebody in simone, you're
going to be at my partner in the meeting, and
I'm really excited for you to be here. And here's
why you're here. I want you to Yes, you're going
to take notes, but also we're going to go over
and you'll help me with this PowerPoint after. That's very
different than simone just I need grab a pen. You're
coming this meeting with me, And so that psychological safety
(04:29):
of understanding why you're part of the team is often
lacking in men's understanding of the of the home, and
that can be very painful for them. And so I
just grabbed my phone because I wanted to read you
this beautiful message I got from this man in Korea,
and this is just one of thousands and thousands we
(04:52):
get from men, which is why I said fair plays
become a love letter to them, this idea that they
want to be partners in the home.
Speaker 6 (05:00):
Okay.
Speaker 5 (05:01):
He works in a legal department in Korea, and he says,
thank you message from Korea, Dear miss Rodsky, I read
your book fair Play Project, and write this message to
express gratitude for you. I bought this book as one
of husbands in the world, and I confess I thought
I'm a fairly good husband, but I was wrong. That's
really not fair Play is not much a shame, but
(05:21):
in the beginning it could feel a little little angry.
But then the system is helpful. So for men who
are reading it for the first time, maybe skip to
page one hundred. He says, I strongly believe everybody must
read this book before they got married or have a baby. Personally,
I lost my sister, who was a high court judge
and a mother of two elementary student sons, four years ago.
(05:42):
It was because a cerebral hemorrhage stroke took her. I
believe this disease exploded as she worked too hard and
handled too many things. During her father in law's death,
which was just a week before her death, she took
care too many things as a full time worker and
a perfectionist judge. I think of this whole fair Play
project over the entire Korea, and every husband executes this project,
(06:05):
my sister would still be with us, having a balanced life,
with her smiling face, which I terribly miss. Thank you
for writing this book and I will practice this method
from now on. Wow, how could fair play not be
a love letter to men when that's what you see?
Speaker 3 (06:18):
Wow?
Speaker 4 (06:18):
I have so emotional hearing that I know, so do I.
Speaker 5 (06:21):
I've read it probably over fifty times, and I still
tear up because A I hear the pain in his voice,
and B I know it can be better, could be
better for women out there, And it does require men
to step into their full power in the home, and
it only only benefits men. There's not one man that
I've interviewed again in seventeen countries that has as ever
(06:44):
said I regretted taking my child to school that morning,
I regretted being there for that recital. I regretted buying
the flowers for my daughter and watching her get the
yellow Roses that she loves after she did her ballet.
Speaker 6 (06:58):
We just don't hear that.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
We have to take a quick break. But when we
come back, we're playing a game of fair play. Don't
go anywhere, and.
Speaker 4 (07:18):
We're back with Eve Rodsky. Should we fair play it up?
Speaker 1 (07:22):
Yeah, let's fair play it up. I was going to
ask you, you know what is the solution? What is
because you know you said you know that there is
a better way, I'm guessing it's that.
Speaker 5 (07:33):
Yeah, Well, I'll say it's the magic formula. The formula
is boundaries, systems, and communication.
Speaker 6 (07:40):
That's it.
Speaker 5 (07:40):
People who use those three things and had the fair
play tools to help with those three things during the
pandemic performed really really well, and those that didn't. You know, again,
that's not quantitative the same way our a study on
cognitive labor as yet, but our qualitative studies show that
people who didn't have it faar it a lot worse.
But how do you even come to the It's not
like I could just give you this tool and be like,
(08:02):
go for it. So the third piece, communication, I think,
is such a big piece of it. And that's what
we're going to play today with fair play. So we're
not going to divide up the cards as if you
and I were in a partnership together. But we're going
to use the cards the way a lot of therapists
have been using the cards, which I think is so exciting,
which is to play a different type of game with
the cards.
Speaker 6 (08:21):
So and it's basically a communication exercise.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
You know, you've got a real game on your hands
when therapists they are using cards.
Speaker 6 (08:29):
Yes, it's actually really amazing.
Speaker 5 (08:31):
Yeah, and we actually have people now trained and a
lot of the people who are trained in fair play
are therapists. So for all of you out there who
see a therapist or who are therapy adjacent, understand how
much I value you because again, as a lawyer, I
needed psychologists like our friends at USC who helped me
do with my studies and it was very important. Okay,
(08:52):
so this is what I'm going to have you do, Danielle.
Speaker 6 (08:55):
Let's start with you. Okay, I'm going to just have you.
Speaker 5 (08:56):
Shuffle the cards and then just shuffle them and then
you're going to just pick one. Okay, Yeah, it's sort
of they're a little thick, so maybe hard to actually
shuffle them like poke for style, but yeah, try it.
Speaker 6 (09:08):
Yeah. Oh, actually you.
Speaker 4 (09:09):
Did it, okay, and then I just picked one.
Speaker 5 (09:11):
Yeah, pick one anywhere on the deck, just yeah, pick one.
Speaker 6 (09:17):
Ooh gifts. I love this card. Okay.
Speaker 5 (09:20):
So Danielle, you picked gifts for VIPs. VIPs mean very
important people in your life. So this is how we're
going to play. I want to know any story or
anything you can remember about gift gifting in your childhood.
Speaker 6 (09:36):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Sometimes I throw my parents under the bus on the show,
but it's coming from a sincere place. So when I
was growing up, there was the Tiffany necklace.
Speaker 5 (09:47):
But by the way, can I just say that we
literally went through one hundred cards, you picked one, and
then you're so smart in articulate you were able to
just jump in and have a memory.
Speaker 6 (09:56):
I just want to say how good you are that
you were able to do that. We did not script
this beforehand.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
Okay, it's a distinct memory, Okay, for some reason. So
when I was growing up, the Tiffany dog chain collar
necklace was a big thing, and so many of the
girls in my school had it, and I begged my
parents for it, and they were like, we're absolutely.
Speaker 4 (10:16):
Not getting you anything from Tiffany's.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
So for my tenth birthday, I opened a box and
it had like a knockoff Tiffany bracelet okay, and it
was engraved and it said a decade of Love Dad,
And I was so excited. And then I looked at
my dad and I realized that he had never seen
that bracelet before.
Speaker 6 (10:40):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
And I looked at my mom and she was the
one who had given me a gift from my father.
And that was the entirety of my childhood. My mom
did all of the gifts for everybody, including his parents
and his cousins and his aunts and uncles, and it's
so ingrained in my mind because I just I feel
like she did so much.
Speaker 5 (11:01):
I just got chills for many reasons. But I have
a question for you. Do you think that in that
memory that you realize that later on as you've been
processing what you want for your life and your relationship,
or do you actually really think in the moment you
knew except from the bottom, like from the back of
sort of your ten year old not you know, fully
(11:22):
executive function brain.
Speaker 4 (11:23):
That's such a good question.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
I knew because I saw my dad's face and it
just wasn't from him, and I knew it wasn't, and
I still have it. I love it, but as I've
gotten older, I think about that moment a lot, actually,
because I don't want that for my hopeful future marriage.
Speaker 5 (11:42):
Well, so interesting is I wonder, right, if you were
in a partnership in that situation with a child and
then your partner says to you, you know, what are
we giving them for their birthday? It could be a
bigger trigger for you than say the average person.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Right.
Speaker 5 (12:01):
And I don't know how much a partner would know
about that, because that wasn't how we've ever been taught
to ask people, Hey.
Speaker 6 (12:10):
Who gave you gifts growing up?
Speaker 3 (12:11):
Right?
Speaker 5 (12:13):
But I do feel that I know you in a
deeper way just that was probably I don't know how
long did that story take?
Speaker 6 (12:19):
Forty five seconds?
Speaker 1 (12:21):
Right?
Speaker 6 (12:21):
Maybe a minute?
Speaker 5 (12:23):
In that minute, just by doing that game, I feel
like I have a really interesting and deeper sense of
who you are as a person.
Speaker 6 (12:30):
So I just I love that so much.
Speaker 4 (12:34):
Well, Simone's shuffling.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
What I just realized playing that was I'd always thought
of fair play as a division of labor, and I
didn't realize that these cards could be used to understand
your partner better and hear stories.
Speaker 5 (12:46):
Yeah, yeah, well we're going to talk about how important
that is. But I think the biggest piece of that
formula we were just talking about boundary systems communication. It
keeps going back to why these conversations about the home
are a movement and not what I thought in the beginning. Oh,
I'll just give you this tool and everything's going to
(13:07):
be fine. Is because each piece of that puzzle of
understanding your own boundaries to the system of understanding what
actual ownership is, and not just the piece that you
see like going to the store, but all the mental
load and on top of it.
Speaker 6 (13:22):
Now we have to learn how to communicate in a
different way.
Speaker 5 (13:25):
Not just why didn't you get the necklace or go
to the store for the birthday gifts? We have to
sit down and say, wait a second, these are not
just chores and housework.
Speaker 6 (13:33):
These are humanity. It's very, very big. It's big than
I thought.
Speaker 5 (13:40):
Yeah, we're talking about a five years later, right, that's
how big it is. And I think we'll continue to
have this. Okay, so now we're going to go to you. Okay,
we just just pick any card in the deck.
Speaker 3 (13:52):
Okay, I'll do this.
Speaker 6 (13:56):
Oh what came up?
Speaker 3 (13:57):
Here weekday breakfast.
Speaker 6 (13:59):
We breakfast.
Speaker 5 (14:00):
Okay, let's go back. You're in second grade or third grade.
Do you have any memories of what school, I mean,
home was like before you went to school in the morning,
or what your lunches look like, anything related to meals
as a child, but especially breakfast.
Speaker 3 (14:19):
Yeah. Actually, I'm going to talk about my dad too.
Speaker 6 (14:22):
Interesting.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
We've always had a really tight daddy daughter relationship, and
we moved around a lot when I was growing up.
That's something that's been a defining characteristic of me and
has shaped me into who I am. And it's funny
in each city I can remember these breakfast traditions that
we had.
Speaker 6 (14:40):
I got again.
Speaker 5 (14:41):
I swear to God to the listeners, we did not
script this in advance. We just literally picked a card
out of the deck. Okay, so tell me please.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
So I think from a really young age in elementary school,
I have this vivid memory of my dad making me
smoothies every morning. Oh my God, and he really inst
under Back then, we were a vitam ex. We were
a cutting edge family. We had a blender. It was crazy,
but he would make me smoothies. And I think to
(15:10):
this day he instilled a love of smoothies in me
and I think about him whenever I make them. And
then we also had a beautiful tradition of going to
get Cuban food in Miami.
Speaker 6 (15:22):
Wow, So what does that mean? Tell us more?
Speaker 1 (15:25):
Yeah, so it's it's actually pretty ritualistic getting a Cuban breakfast.
So it's typically bread, coffee coletche, and then like eggs
and rice and beans. And I distinctly remember just like
what you do whenever you have a Cuban breakfast is
you dip the bread into the coffee coleche and then
(15:45):
you eat it and it's like the sweet and savory combination.
So honestly, my dad is the one who I have
all these breakfast memories with.
Speaker 5 (15:54):
Oh my gosh, Well again, the fair play is a
love letter to men. This is a love letter to
your father.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (16:00):
Did your parents? Were your parents together where?
Speaker 2 (16:01):
I am?
Speaker 4 (16:02):
Yes?
Speaker 6 (16:02):
Are they still together?
Speaker 3 (16:03):
Yes?
Speaker 6 (16:04):
And are you still close to your dad?
Speaker 3 (16:06):
I am yeah?
Speaker 5 (16:07):
Can we say his name on the air, yeah, Charles, Charles,
thank you for doing breakfasts. It's become a memory for
your daughter as part of her humanity. So tell me,
do you have any traditions now for your children?
Speaker 6 (16:21):
And food.
Speaker 3 (16:23):
I really take pride in my kids nutrition.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
I really want to set them up for success, and
I know that food is one of the best ways
to do that. So I do all the weekday breakfasts.
While my husband is getting the kids ready and dressing
them for school, I do the breakfast, I do the lunches.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
And honestly, it doesn't feel like a chore for me.
Speaker 6 (16:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
I love the act of putting intentionality and thoughtfulness into
their meals and hoping when I'm making their food, I
think about them opening it up at school and being like, oh,
my mom got me the snacks that I really wanted,
Like I remember that feeling of feeling so cool at
school when you had like I don't know, fruit roll ups, whatever,
And I have to shout out my mom, like yes,
(17:05):
my dad, we had all these great breakfast memories together,
but my mom did all the rest of the cooking,
so like the lunches, the dinners, and we always had
a tradition of sitting and eating dinner together. And I
think I've inherited her. I hope I have inherited her
intentionality when it comes to feeding my kids.
Speaker 5 (17:23):
So if we were married, that could again that that
would be something that we hadn't talked about the way
you just so beautifully told me, and we just went
into a relationship together and we just started to make
meals may have been a point of contention for both
of us because I grew up sort of a you know,
latch key kid. Nutrition was literally the meal I ate
(17:47):
from sixth grade till college at the bodega because I
didn't eat breakfast was a toasted plain bagel, extra steak
fries and extra ketchup. It's actually very delicious, it is,
but that toasted bagel with steak fries in the middle
and extra ketchup was what I ate for basically a decade.
Speaker 3 (18:05):
You put the fries on the page.
Speaker 5 (18:07):
Yes, that's what I'm saying, So the steak fries go
in the bagel, so it's a it's hardcore, and then ketchup.
So again, you may feel if we were together that
I wasn't.
Speaker 6 (18:19):
Valuing what you valued.
Speaker 5 (18:20):
But also I wouldn't really necessarily understand your why, And
also maybe you could have a little bit more compassion
for me for why I don't really understand the value
of that intentionality when what's the big deal? Of course,
it becomes a division of labor tool just inherently in
seeing the hundred cards. And you you know, people who
come to this with these the values you know, with
(18:42):
with good intentionality feel like there's no way I want
you to hold all those cards like that would feel unfair.
So I do visual power, yes, but I do think
that the reason why a lot of people are using
it to get people to tell their stories is because
we've missed that step. We think we know so much
about our partners, but actually we know incredibly little about
(19:06):
them in our lives that we had before them. So
it's been a very eye opening thing for me to
do these types of exercises with Seth, with my kids,
with my parents. And so if these conversations feel triggering
to you or you're like, this would never work in
my relationship, you know, my partner would never do X,
Y and Z. I don't think you could say my
(19:27):
partner would never answer question about their childhood.
Speaker 6 (19:31):
I think they would.
Speaker 5 (19:33):
And I think that's a good introduction into what we're
talking about today.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
We've got to take a quick break, but we'll be
right back with Eve Rodsky.
Speaker 4 (19:48):
And we're back, Eve, are you comfortable doing one.
Speaker 6 (19:51):
Yes, of course.
Speaker 5 (19:53):
Oh fun, Okay, I never get to do my aunsa,
thank you so much for that, and so you do. Yeah,
I'll just see what I pick. Okay, Oh, hard questions
as kids?
Speaker 2 (20:06):
Okay.
Speaker 5 (20:07):
What means okay, hard questions is who's doing the research
to answer hard questions your children have? What's a blowjob?
Why is that person have two moms? Something that you
may want to come to with intentionality and not dismiss
and make sure that you're on the right values path
(20:28):
to answer that question thoughtfully. So let's see hard questions
as kids. What hard questions that I have? Well, this
is what I think I'll say about that again, sort
of throwing my parents under the bus. This is before
you know Instagram or Google or any social media.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Right.
Speaker 6 (20:46):
I grew up in the eighties.
Speaker 5 (20:48):
What I'd say about hard questions was that I found
it everything either through friends or through shame. And so
maybe that's why I'm sort of an open book with
my children. I'm just trying to think of it. I've
never made that connection, but maybe I'm too much of
an open book.
Speaker 6 (21:03):
I'll give you an example.
Speaker 5 (21:04):
I was really embarrassed because I went to camp at
the end of sixth grade, and I had like full
armpit hair, and I remember everybody was like making out
in camp and everyone's like, I would never touch Eve.
She's disgusting. She's like full armpit hair or whatever. And
so I remember thinking to myself and even like crooming
like my vagina. I didn't realize that other people like
(21:25):
wax stor you know, like I just didn't know anything
about bodily hair. And now that I think about it,
and I sort of found out with like teasing and
shame and so what I'm realizing now to that connection
was recently, Zach was with me and Emmy Hill die
if he knew I was saying the story, but we
were like at the counter and he was like opening
(21:46):
after snack, like a blueberry muffin, and I was like, Zach,
you know, I just have this memory that my mother
and my father, no one ever told me that people
trim their pubic hair.
Speaker 6 (21:54):
I was like, you know, I wish I knew that earlier.
Speaker 5 (21:56):
And literally he took his fucking blueberry muffin and threw
it me and he just walked out of the room.
Speaker 6 (22:02):
So I remember this like muffin like rolling on the floor.
Speaker 5 (22:04):
Oh my god, so maybe I'm too open with hard
questions and just wanting to talk about all the hard
topics all the time. And so it's interesting because Zach
now has a rule with me that I want to
put on a T shirt. It's called no specifics. But
now I'm thinking maybe it came from this. Maybe it
came from the fact that I never had anybody to
ask hard questions to. So I'm just like, for sure
(22:25):
blurting out hard questions all over the place. So now
we've gotten the opposite where where my son's like, do never.
Speaker 6 (22:31):
Tell me anything hard again. We literally have a no
specifics household.
Speaker 4 (22:35):
That is funny.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Well, because you're trying to spare them, you know, from
what you have experienced.
Speaker 6 (22:40):
Yeah, I am exactly.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Yeah, Eve, my mom's the same way, and her mom
didn't tell her anything, and so she tells me all
of the things I'm going to steal no specifics. But
I'm grateful for it because as things happened to me
in my life, I think, oh, I'm not weird or
I'm not you know, like for all of it. She
told me that my twenties were going to be my
(23:02):
hardest decade, and then no one tells you that they're
supposed to be the best.
Speaker 5 (23:06):
Yeah, and I was so grateful. She told me how amazing.
I want to meet your mother. She sounds really wonderful.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
Thanks Eve, thank you so much for coming on the
bright side and bringing the fair Play deck with you.
Speaker 5 (23:18):
Oh, thank you for your vulnerability and for letting me
turn the tables and let you answer questions and.
Speaker 4 (23:23):
For bringing all that heart.
Speaker 6 (23:24):
Thank you, big hugs. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
Eve Rodsky is the New York Times best selling author
of fair Play and Find Your Unicorn Space. She's also
a proud member of the Hello Sunshine family. Join the
conversation using hashtag the bright Side and connect with us
on social media at Hello Sunshine on Instagram and at
(23:49):
the bright Side Pod on TikTok oh, and feel free
to tag us at Simone Voice and at Danielle Robe.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
Listen and follow the bright Side on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
We'll see you Monday, y'all. Keep looking on the bright side.
Hello Sunshine, Hey, Messi's we're back and we've got a
little treats of brighten up your weekend.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Simone, this is our first ever bonus episode, Capital B.
Speaker 3 (00:13):
I'm so here for this.
Speaker 4 (00:14):
Love a bonus, We love a bonus.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Okay, So, a couple of weeks ago, we had an
amazing conversation with Eve Rodsky. And if you haven't listened
to the episode yet, Eve's a member of the Hello
Sunshine family. She's the author of fair Play, and it
changed the cultural conversation entirely. In it, she sheds light
on all of the cognitive labor that women take on
in traditional family structures, things like planning and preparing for
(00:40):
everyday tasks like even putting sunscreen on your kids.
Speaker 4 (00:43):
That takes time.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
And she's an expert in organization, so she's talking about
everything that a household needs to function. So she didn't
just start the conversation. Eve dug in. She researched it,
and she's trying to fix the issue. She offers practical
ways that family can redistribute all of the work more equitably.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Yeah, that book, Fairplay is a New York Times bestseller
and a former Reese's Book Club pick, and there's also
a fair Play card game and a documentary. And Eve's
been really open about the backstory behind fair Play and
how all of these resources have even transformed her own
relationships and her home from the inside out, her dynamic
with her husband Seth. Us are three kids, Zach, Ben
(01:25):
and Anna. Eve told us she designed the fair Play
card game as a tool to help us navigate hard
conversations better. We actually had the opportunity to play this
game with Eve during our original conversation, but we didn't
have time to include it in our show until now.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
So today we have a very special bonus episode where
we're playing Eve's game and all of us are getting
really honest. But if you haven't listened to our first
episode with Eve, we promise you'll still be able to
follow along with this one. But definitely go check out
that original conversation If you're interested in buying Eve's game,
which I highly recommend I give it as a gift
(02:04):
to a lot of friends, especially as they get married.
You can find the link to the game in our
show notes.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
Well, let the games begin.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Here's our extended conversation with Eve Rodsky, The New York
Times best selling author of fair Play and Find Your
Unicorn Space.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
You've called fair Play a love letter to men, and
I think that's a really important part of this because
I know we can all joke about men and the
inadequacies that we feel, but we keep marrying them for
the most part, and so it's important that they're a
part of this and that it feels positive. And you
(02:41):
say that the research shows it actually is, oh absolutely so.
Speaker 5 (02:46):
Part of our research that just came out shows that
fair play works, which is very exciting and the reason
why sometimes I actually think, even though it feels so
heavy for women that the home organization is so painful
for men as well, is because they're defined in one way,
(03:07):
which is breadwinning, and actually the value of that men
bring to all those other tasks the fair Play cards
is exponential, and we see it in the research that
when men are involved in transporting their kids to school,
kids get amazing advice.
Speaker 6 (03:23):
When men are.
Speaker 5 (03:24):
Involved with cooking and allow their kids to be involved
more as opposed to women who are like, get out
of this kitchen and I don't want you being burned.
There's just so many different ways that when men are
invited into their full power in the home, not only
can women step into their full power in the world,
but children benefit, society benefits.
Speaker 6 (03:43):
It's a really beautiful thing.
Speaker 5 (03:45):
So, Danielle, when you're asking about why Fair plays a
love letter to men, I think the pain and just
being a helper is actually probably as bad as the
mental load. When you think about when men are the
ones going to the store for the mustard but have
zero context for that task. It becomes a random assignment
(04:05):
of a task. And we actually know from the organizational
management side that if you bring somebody in simone, you're
going to be at my partner in the meeting, and
I'm really excited for you to be here. And here's
why you're here. I want you to Yes, you're going
to take notes, but also we're going to go over
and you'll help me with this PowerPoint after. That's very
different than simone just I need grab a pen. You're
coming this meeting with me, And so that psychological safety
(04:29):
of understanding why you're part of the team is often
lacking in men's understanding of the of the home, and
that can be very painful for them. And so I
just grabbed my phone because I wanted to read you
this beautiful message I got from this man in Korea,
and this is just one of thousands and thousands we
(04:52):
get from men, which is why I said fair plays
become a love letter to them, this idea that they
want to be partners in the home.
Speaker 6 (05:00):
Okay.
Speaker 5 (05:01):
He works in a legal department in Korea, and he says,
thank you message from Korea, Dear miss Rodsky, I read
your book fair Play Project, and write this message to
express gratitude for you. I bought this book as one
of husbands in the world, and I confess I thought
I'm a fairly good husband, but I was wrong. That's
really not fair Play is not much a shame, but
(05:21):
in the beginning it could feel a little little angry.
But then the system is helpful. So for men who
are reading it for the first time, maybe skip to
page one hundred. He says, I strongly believe everybody must
read this book before they got married or have a baby. Personally,
I lost my sister, who was a high court judge
and a mother of two elementary student sons, four years ago.
(05:42):
It was because a cerebral hemorrhage stroke took her. I
believe this disease exploded as she worked too hard and
handled too many things. During her father in law's death,
which was just a week before her death, she took
care too many things as a full time worker and
a perfectionist judge. I think of this whole fair Play
project over the entire Korea, and every husband executes this project,
(06:05):
my sister would still be with us, having a balanced life,
with her smiling face, which I terribly miss. Thank you
for writing this book and I will practice this method
from now on. Wow, how could fair play not be
a love letter to men when that's what you see?
Speaker 3 (06:18):
Wow?
Speaker 4 (06:18):
I have so emotional hearing that I know, so do I.
Speaker 5 (06:21):
I've read it probably over fifty times, and I still
tear up because A I hear the pain in his voice,
and B I know it can be better, could be
better for women out there, And it does require men
to step into their full power in the home, and
it only only benefits men. There's not one man that
I've interviewed again in seventeen countries that has as ever
(06:44):
said I regretted taking my child to school that morning,
I regretted being there for that recital. I regretted buying
the flowers for my daughter and watching her get the
yellow Roses that she loves after she did her ballet.
Speaker 6 (06:58):
We just don't hear that.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
We have to take a quick break. But when we
come back, we're playing a game of fair play. Don't
go anywhere, and.
Speaker 4 (07:18):
We're back with Eve Rodsky. Should we fair play it up?
Speaker 1 (07:22):
Yeah, let's fair play it up. I was going to
ask you, you know what is the solution? What is
because you know you said you know that there is
a better way, I'm guessing it's that.
Speaker 5 (07:33):
Yeah, Well, I'll say it's the magic formula. The formula
is boundaries, systems, and communication.
Speaker 6 (07:40):
That's it.
Speaker 5 (07:40):
People who use those three things and had the fair
play tools to help with those three things during the
pandemic performed really really well, and those that didn't. You know, again,
that's not quantitative the same way our a study on
cognitive labor as yet, but our qualitative studies show that
people who didn't have it faar it a lot worse.
But how do you even come to the It's not
like I could just give you this tool and be like,
(08:02):
go for it. So the third piece, communication, I think,
is such a big piece of it. And that's what
we're going to play today with fair play. So we're
not going to divide up the cards as if you
and I were in a partnership together. But we're going
to use the cards the way a lot of therapists
have been using the cards, which I think is so exciting,
which is to play a different type of game with
the cards.
Speaker 6 (08:21):
So and it's basically a communication exercise.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
You know, you've got a real game on your hands
when therapists they are using cards.
Speaker 6 (08:29):
Yes, it's actually really amazing.
Speaker 5 (08:31):
Yeah, and we actually have people now trained and a
lot of the people who are trained in fair play
are therapists. So for all of you out there who
see a therapist or who are therapy adjacent, understand how
much I value you because again, as a lawyer, I
needed psychologists like our friends at USC who helped me
do with my studies and it was very important. Okay,
(08:52):
so this is what I'm going to have you do, Danielle.
Speaker 6 (08:55):
Let's start with you. Okay, I'm going to just have you.
Speaker 5 (08:56):
Shuffle the cards and then just shuffle them and then
you're going to just pick one. Okay, Yeah, it's sort
of they're a little thick, so maybe hard to actually
shuffle them like poke for style, but yeah, try it.
Speaker 6 (09:08):
Yeah. Oh, actually you.
Speaker 4 (09:09):
Did it, okay, and then I just picked one.
Speaker 5 (09:11):
Yeah, pick one anywhere on the deck, just yeah, pick one.
Speaker 6 (09:17):
Ooh gifts. I love this card. Okay.
Speaker 5 (09:20):
So Danielle, you picked gifts for VIPs. VIPs mean very
important people in your life. So this is how we're
going to play. I want to know any story or
anything you can remember about gift gifting in your childhood.
Speaker 6 (09:36):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Sometimes I throw my parents under the bus on the show,
but it's coming from a sincere place. So when I
was growing up, there was the Tiffany necklace.
Speaker 5 (09:47):
But by the way, can I just say that we
literally went through one hundred cards, you picked one, and
then you're so smart in articulate you were able to
just jump in and have a memory.
Speaker 6 (09:56):
I just want to say how good you are that
you were able to do that. We did not script
this beforehand.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
Okay, it's a distinct memory, Okay, for some reason. So
when I was growing up, the Tiffany dog chain collar
necklace was a big thing, and so many of the
girls in my school had it, and I begged my
parents for it, and they were like, we're absolutely.
Speaker 4 (10:16):
Not getting you anything from Tiffany's.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
So for my tenth birthday, I opened a box and
it had like a knockoff Tiffany bracelet okay, and it
was engraved and it said a decade of Love Dad,
And I was so excited. And then I looked at
my dad and I realized that he had never seen
that bracelet before.
Speaker 6 (10:40):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
And I looked at my mom and she was the
one who had given me a gift from my father.
And that was the entirety of my childhood. My mom
did all of the gifts for everybody, including his parents
and his cousins and his aunts and uncles, and it's
so ingrained in my mind because I just I feel
like she did so much.
Speaker 5 (11:01):
I just got chills for many reasons. But I have
a question for you. Do you think that in that
memory that you realize that later on as you've been
processing what you want for your life and your relationship,
or do you actually really think in the moment you
knew except from the bottom, like from the back of
sort of your ten year old not you know, fully
(11:22):
executive function brain.
Speaker 4 (11:23):
That's such a good question.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
I knew because I saw my dad's face and it
just wasn't from him, and I knew it wasn't, and
I still have it. I love it, but as I've
gotten older, I think about that moment a lot, actually,
because I don't want that for my hopeful future marriage.
Speaker 5 (11:42):
Well, so interesting is I wonder, right, if you were
in a partnership in that situation with a child and
then your partner says to you, you know, what are
we giving them for their birthday? It could be a
bigger trigger for you than say the average person.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Right.
Speaker 5 (12:01):
And I don't know how much a partner would know
about that, because that wasn't how we've ever been taught
to ask people, Hey.
Speaker 6 (12:10):
Who gave you gifts growing up?
Speaker 3 (12:11):
Right?
Speaker 5 (12:13):
But I do feel that I know you in a
deeper way just that was probably I don't know how
long did that story take?
Speaker 6 (12:19):
Forty five seconds?
Speaker 1 (12:21):
Right?
Speaker 6 (12:21):
Maybe a minute?
Speaker 5 (12:23):
In that minute, just by doing that game, I feel
like I have a really interesting and deeper sense of
who you are as a person.
Speaker 6 (12:30):
So I just I love that so much.
Speaker 4 (12:34):
Well, Simone's shuffling.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
What I just realized playing that was I'd always thought
of fair play as a division of labor, and I
didn't realize that these cards could be used to understand
your partner better and hear stories.
Speaker 5 (12:46):
Yeah, yeah, well we're going to talk about how important
that is. But I think the biggest piece of that
formula we were just talking about boundary systems communication. It
keeps going back to why these conversations about the home
are a movement and not what I thought in the beginning. Oh,
I'll just give you this tool and everything's going to
(13:07):
be fine. Is because each piece of that puzzle of
understanding your own boundaries to the system of understanding what
actual ownership is, and not just the piece that you
see like going to the store, but all the mental
load and on top of it.
Speaker 6 (13:22):
Now we have to learn how to communicate in a
different way.
Speaker 5 (13:25):
Not just why didn't you get the necklace or go
to the store for the birthday gifts? We have to
sit down and say, wait a second, these are not
just chores and housework.
Speaker 6 (13:33):
These are humanity. It's very, very big. It's big than
I thought.
Speaker 5 (13:40):
Yeah, we're talking about a five years later, right, that's
how big it is. And I think we'll continue to
have this. Okay, so now we're going to go to you. Okay,
we just just pick any card in the deck.
Speaker 3 (13:52):
Okay, I'll do this.
Speaker 6 (13:56):
Oh what came up?
Speaker 3 (13:57):
Here weekday breakfast.
Speaker 6 (13:59):
We breakfast.
Speaker 5 (14:00):
Okay, let's go back. You're in second grade or third grade.
Do you have any memories of what school, I mean,
home was like before you went to school in the morning,
or what your lunches look like, anything related to meals
as a child, but especially breakfast.
Speaker 3 (14:19):
Yeah. Actually, I'm going to talk about my dad too.
Speaker 6 (14:22):
Interesting.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
We've always had a really tight daddy daughter relationship, and
we moved around a lot when I was growing up.
That's something that's been a defining characteristic of me and
has shaped me into who I am. And it's funny
in each city I can remember these breakfast traditions that
we had.
Speaker 6 (14:40):
I got again.
Speaker 5 (14:41):
I swear to God to the listeners, we did not
script this in advance. We just literally picked a card
out of the deck. Okay, so tell me please.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
So I think from a really young age in elementary school,
I have this vivid memory of my dad making me
smoothies every morning. Oh my God, and he really inst
under Back then, we were a vitam ex. We were
a cutting edge family. We had a blender. It was crazy,
but he would make me smoothies. And I think to
(15:10):
this day he instilled a love of smoothies in me
and I think about him whenever I make them. And
then we also had a beautiful tradition of going to
get Cuban food in Miami.
Speaker 6 (15:22):
Wow, So what does that mean? Tell us more?
Speaker 1 (15:25):
Yeah, so it's it's actually pretty ritualistic getting a Cuban breakfast.
So it's typically bread, coffee coletche, and then like eggs
and rice and beans. And I distinctly remember just like
what you do whenever you have a Cuban breakfast is
you dip the bread into the coffee coleche and then
(15:45):
you eat it and it's like the sweet and savory combination.
So honestly, my dad is the one who I have
all these breakfast memories with.
Speaker 5 (15:54):
Oh my gosh, Well again, the fair play is a
love letter to men. This is a love letter to
your father.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (16:00):
Did your parents? Were your parents together where?
Speaker 2 (16:01):
I am?
Speaker 4 (16:02):
Yes?
Speaker 6 (16:02):
Are they still together?
Speaker 3 (16:03):
Yes?
Speaker 6 (16:04):
And are you still close to your dad?
Speaker 3 (16:06):
I am yeah?
Speaker 5 (16:07):
Can we say his name on the air, yeah, Charles, Charles,
thank you for doing breakfasts. It's become a memory for
your daughter as part of her humanity. So tell me,
do you have any traditions now for your children?
Speaker 6 (16:21):
And food.
Speaker 3 (16:23):
I really take pride in my kids nutrition.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
I really want to set them up for success, and
I know that food is one of the best ways
to do that. So I do all the weekday breakfasts.
While my husband is getting the kids ready and dressing
them for school, I do the breakfast, I do the lunches.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
And honestly, it doesn't feel like a chore for me.
Speaker 6 (16:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
I love the act of putting intentionality and thoughtfulness into
their meals and hoping when I'm making their food, I
think about them opening it up at school and being like, oh,
my mom got me the snacks that I really wanted,
Like I remember that feeling of feeling so cool at
school when you had like I don't know, fruit roll ups, whatever,
And I have to shout out my mom, like yes,
(17:05):
my dad, we had all these great breakfast memories together,
but my mom did all the rest of the cooking,
so like the lunches, the dinners, and we always had
a tradition of sitting and eating dinner together. And I
think I've inherited her. I hope I have inherited her
intentionality when it comes to feeding my kids.
Speaker 5 (17:23):
So if we were married, that could again that that
would be something that we hadn't talked about the way
you just so beautifully told me, and we just went
into a relationship together and we just started to make
meals may have been a point of contention for both
of us because I grew up sort of a you know,
latch key kid. Nutrition was literally the meal I ate
(17:47):
from sixth grade till college at the bodega because I
didn't eat breakfast was a toasted plain bagel, extra steak
fries and extra ketchup. It's actually very delicious, it is,
but that toasted bagel with steak fries in the middle
and extra ketchup was what I ate for basically a decade.
Speaker 3 (18:05):
You put the fries on the page.
Speaker 5 (18:07):
Yes, that's what I'm saying, So the steak fries go
in the bagel, so it's a it's hardcore, and then ketchup.
So again, you may feel if we were together that
I wasn't.
Speaker 6 (18:19):
Valuing what you valued.
Speaker 5 (18:20):
But also I wouldn't really necessarily understand your why, And
also maybe you could have a little bit more compassion
for me for why I don't really understand the value
of that intentionality when what's the big deal? Of course,
it becomes a division of labor tool just inherently in
seeing the hundred cards. And you you know, people who
come to this with these the values you know, with
(18:42):
with good intentionality feel like there's no way I want
you to hold all those cards like that would feel unfair.
So I do visual power, yes, but I do think
that the reason why a lot of people are using
it to get people to tell their stories is because
we've missed that step. We think we know so much
about our partners, but actually we know incredibly little about
(19:06):
them in our lives that we had before them. So
it's been a very eye opening thing for me to
do these types of exercises with Seth, with my kids,
with my parents. And so if these conversations feel triggering
to you or you're like, this would never work in
my relationship, you know, my partner would never do X,
Y and Z. I don't think you could say my
(19:27):
partner would never answer question about their childhood.
Speaker 6 (19:31):
I think they would.
Speaker 5 (19:33):
And I think that's a good introduction into what we're
talking about today.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
We've got to take a quick break, but we'll be
right back with Eve Rodsky.
Speaker 4 (19:48):
And we're back, Eve, are you comfortable doing one.
Speaker 6 (19:51):
Yes, of course.
Speaker 5 (19:53):
Oh fun, Okay, I never get to do my aunsa,
thank you so much for that, and so you do. Yeah,
I'll just see what I pick. Okay, Oh, hard questions
as kids?
Speaker 2 (20:06):
Okay.
Speaker 5 (20:07):
What means okay, hard questions is who's doing the research
to answer hard questions your children have? What's a blowjob?
Why is that person have two moms? Something that you
may want to come to with intentionality and not dismiss
and make sure that you're on the right values path
(20:28):
to answer that question thoughtfully. So let's see hard questions
as kids. What hard questions that I have? Well, this
is what I think I'll say about that again, sort
of throwing my parents under the bus. This is before
you know Instagram or Google or any social media.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Right.
Speaker 6 (20:46):
I grew up in the eighties.
Speaker 5 (20:48):
What I'd say about hard questions was that I found
it everything either through friends or through shame. And so
maybe that's why I'm sort of an open book with
my children. I'm just trying to think of it. I've
never made that connection, but maybe I'm too much of
an open book.
Speaker 6 (21:03):
I'll give you an example.
Speaker 5 (21:04):
I was really embarrassed because I went to camp at
the end of sixth grade, and I had like full
armpit hair, and I remember everybody was like making out
in camp and everyone's like, I would never touch Eve.
She's disgusting. She's like full armpit hair or whatever. And
so I remember thinking to myself and even like crooming
like my vagina. I didn't realize that other people like
(21:25):
wax stor you know, like I just didn't know anything
about bodily hair. And now that I think about it,
and I sort of found out with like teasing and
shame and so what I'm realizing now to that connection
was recently, Zach was with me and Emmy Hill die
if he knew I was saying the story, but we
were like at the counter and he was like opening
(21:46):
after snack, like a blueberry muffin, and I was like, Zach,
you know, I just have this memory that my mother
and my father, no one ever told me that people
trim their pubic hair.
Speaker 6 (21:54):
I was like, you know, I wish I knew that earlier.
Speaker 5 (21:56):
And literally he took his fucking blueberry muffin and threw
it me and he just walked out of the room.
Speaker 6 (22:02):
So I remember this like muffin like rolling on the floor.
Speaker 5 (22:04):
Oh my god, so maybe I'm too open with hard
questions and just wanting to talk about all the hard
topics all the time. And so it's interesting because Zach
now has a rule with me that I want to
put on a T shirt. It's called no specifics. But
now I'm thinking maybe it came from this. Maybe it
came from the fact that I never had anybody to
ask hard questions to. So I'm just like, for sure
(22:25):
blurting out hard questions all over the place. So now
we've gotten the opposite where where my son's like, do never.
Speaker 6 (22:31):
Tell me anything hard again. We literally have a no
specifics household.
Speaker 4 (22:35):
That is funny.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Well, because you're trying to spare them, you know, from
what you have experienced.
Speaker 6 (22:40):
Yeah, I am exactly.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Yeah, Eve, my mom's the same way, and her mom
didn't tell her anything, and so she tells me all
of the things I'm going to steal no specifics. But
I'm grateful for it because as things happened to me
in my life, I think, oh, I'm not weird or
I'm not you know, like for all of it. She
told me that my twenties were going to be my
(23:02):
hardest decade, and then no one tells you that they're
supposed to be the best.
Speaker 5 (23:06):
Yeah, and I was so grateful. She told me how amazing.
I want to meet your mother. She sounds really wonderful.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
Thanks Eve, thank you so much for coming on the
bright side and bringing the fair Play deck with you.
Speaker 5 (23:18):
Oh, thank you for your vulnerability and for letting me
turn the tables and let you answer questions and.
Speaker 4 (23:23):
For bringing all that heart.
Speaker 6 (23:24):
Thank you, big hugs. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
Eve Rodsky is the New York Times best selling author
of fair Play and Find Your Unicorn Space. She's also
a proud member of the Hello Sunshine family. Join the
conversation using hashtag the bright Side and connect with us
on social media at Hello Sunshine on Instagram and at
(23:49):
the bright Side Pod on TikTok oh, and feel free
to tag us at Simone Voice and at Danielle Robe.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
Listen and follow the bright Side on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
We'll see you Monday, y'all. Keep looking on the bright side.
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