June 21, 2024 • 57 mins
How do you handle a toxic family relationship?
And, do you live by the idea family over everything?
Hear an honest conversation about how Jackie and Jen have experienced estrangement in their families.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hey, everyone, it's Jackie Golschneider and Jennifer Wessler. We are
two Jersey Jays. Hi. Guys, Hi, we don't have a
guest today, which I kind of love because I kind
of love just like talking to you. I do too.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
I kind of like having just this back and forth,
you know. I also obviously we both love having guests.
We have actually some really cool ones. Yeah, wind up,
Yes we do.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Today it's just us. Yeah, and it's a really it's
an interesting topic, Greed agreed, a topic that both of
us actually have a lot of things to say about.
So today's topic is family relationships, and I think a
big part of that is estrangement sometimes unfortunately, that is
a big part of it on our show right now,
(00:47):
without going into any detail, there's a lot of family estrangements.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Yes, unfortunately, And you know, I've had some estrangements within
my family. I still actually do, not personally, but family members.
I think it's just really really difficult. Sometimes it's for
the best, other times not so much. But you know,
I think that it's something that most people have either
(01:16):
dealt with or have had loved ones deal with, you know.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
And it's funny that you say that because when I so,
I have like a very specific family estrangement that has
always I don't know, I waver between it bothering me
and it not bothering me. But I always kind of
felt like I was the only person. And now I
see how common it is, But for a long time,
I always felt like, why does everybody else get a
(01:42):
perfect family unit and mine is so dub Not that
my family is stup, but this relationship is so like
far gone, but I always felt like nobody else has
to deal with this, well except for me.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Both just did an article about family estrangements and there's
apparently there's a no contact family hashtag and it's garnered
just millions of views. So according to Psychology Today, at
least one in four people actually experience estrangements, which seems
like a huge number to me.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Well, it doesn't seem that huge to me because in
my family, and like my parents are very nice people,
my mother is estranged from her sister. My father was
estranged from his brother for twenty years before his brother died,
and I have always since as far back as I
can remember, I've been a strange from my sister. Well,
(02:36):
start talking, Oh, way to talk about it. No, no, no,
So tell me. You know, here's the difficulty. Before I
go into the I'm not going to really go out
of respect for my sister, I will not go into
like specifics of what you know has happened over the years,
but like there's never been a relationship there. So there's
been aggression, there's been fighting because there's no respect or
(02:57):
love there. I think that would almost make it easier, right, Yeah,
I mean it's not hard for me on a daily basis.
I don't care. What's hard for me is knowing that
I have a living blood sister who lives in the
same state as me that I have no relationship with.
It's very strange to me that my children don't know her.
(03:18):
They couldn't pick her out of a lineup. Wow, it's
weird to me, you know, And I think that's what
bothers me is more like the idea of it, not
that I actually want a relationship with her. And you
have nieces and nephews are yeah, who I love who
I'm very relationship with them. Yes, do you have a
very long story, but she doesn't have one with yours.
So my which we started at the beginning. Yeah, let's
(03:42):
let's start at the start. So you know, I never
had a relationship with my sister. She's five years older
than me. Growing up, she really wanted nothing to do
with me. I have to believe it's her, because how
do you hate a five year old? You know, so
she she I had nothing to do and they wanted
nothing to do with you, Like where was your mom?
(04:02):
And this just never played with you. Didn't help much
older My parents worked full time and I had a
disabled brother, so I still have a disabled brother. No
that how much older is your sister? Five years? Okay,
so nobody had time for this, like like fighting sisters nonsense,
Like my parents had all because you thought that much
because we were so far apart in age. It wasn't
even that we would fight. It was I felt from
(04:24):
my perspective, it was that I was like she was
just like torture me, Like it was hell yeah, and
like the few times that my parents left her to
babysit me, like it just wasn't good at all. And
then when I was thirteen, we moved and she was eighteen,
she moved out, so like my parents got our condo
(04:45):
just to get her the fuck out of the house
and that was it. We've hardly seen each other since,
so there wasn't a big blowout. It was just we're
not close. We never have been close. We just don't
like each other. Blowout because but there was never good times.
There was only blowout, so like there was no contact
and then she'd have a fight with my parents and
stick me in the middle of that fight. Now we
(05:06):
did have a fight, my mom would try to get
us together, and then the fights would be even more
explosive because it always ended in a fight, and I
just it just never worked. So there's the part of
me that so I gave up a few years ago,
not interested anymore. Wasn't good for me, wasn't good for
(05:27):
my husband, wasn't good for our family, And I don't
there's nothing to miss, you know, it's just weird to me.
It feels weird. And here's what feels weirder is that
society tells you that you can never give up on family,
and for a long time that made me feel like
I was giving up too easily. And so every few
(05:51):
months I would send a text message or I would
be like, do you want to try? Do you want
to meet for lunch? Do you want to and then
it just would never go anywhere, and I felt very conflicted,
like how much how do you balance this message from
society that you have to keep trying, that you don't
give up on family with this feeling that something is
(06:13):
just not good for you or a relationship adds nothing
to your life.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
And it was Yeah, I feel like that narrative, though,
has changed. I feel like there's so much that I
see on social media about you know, being you know,
friends or chosen family, or when something's toxic, how to
walk away from it, including family. I feel like I
see more and more of that. You don't see that, yes.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
I do, but I think when it's your life and
you see how it interferes with your family dynamic, Like, look,
I'm for forty seven years old. My life is pretty
solid without the relationship with my sister in it. But
I do feel very I'm very aware of the fact
(06:58):
that my original family, not the family I have now.
We are never in the same room together, except if
it's like a huge occasion like someone's born mitzvah or something,
and then there's no contact between us. But we're in
the same room, but we never have family. It's interesting
to me that.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
So my experience with family estrangement has not been well.
Depends what you define as long term, right, Like I've
gone a year without speaking to my sister. I've gone
a year without speaking to a cousin who I'm very
very very close to, even estrangement. Not speaking to one
of my parents for months. Is that a strangement or
(07:39):
is that just a I don't know.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
That's a break.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
But it's interesting to me because nothing specifically happened between
you and your sister. I can't imagine that both of
you haven't grown and evolved and changed, and yet you're
both nobody is like you're You're just don't feel like
you even have a yearning to talk to her or
have her be part of your life. And I think
(08:03):
that maybe because you have never been closed my periods
of estrangement. For instance, with my sister, I want to say,
maybe over a year we didn't speak. I don't know
what's kid considered. I mean, at that point, did I
say we were estranged?
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Maybe?
Speaker 2 (08:17):
I don't with the dictionary what the definition of estrangement is,
but it I was so angry and she was so angry.
Do you want to talk about It's hard. This is
hard because I don't really but I can. I can
tell you that we were always so Robin and I
my sister were fourteen months apart, so I am older,
(08:39):
and I would growing up, I would terrorize her by
and we'd laugh about it. Now, you know. My mom
would leave us together and I'd be like, this is
a line, and I'd draw some imaginary line down the
living room. If you cross it, I will beat the
shit out of you or whatever it was. And we
were also best friends and both right, but we were
fighting and calling each other horrible names. And that was
(09:02):
just the nature of it, right, two girls growing up
in the same house, and as we got older, no
one could say anything to me that would get under
my skin as much as my sister, and I think
that's I know that that's true for her as well.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
Right, We could really.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
Just just strike a chord with each other anyway. We've
certainly had our share of fights. We don't really anymore, thankfully,
But whatever happened, and we didn't speak for a year,
and I just remember it being as much as I
tried to deny it, and I would say to my
mom specifically because she was so torn up about it right,
and I'm going to die one day and you're not
(09:40):
going to have each other. And I would say to her,
I don't miss her, I don't care, I don't like her.
It's my life is complete and I don't meet her
in it. And I was lying not only to my mom,
I was lying to myself because it was just this
weight that I carried around. And so, probably over a
(10:02):
year into our quote unquote estrangement, I got a call
from her I'll never forget it, one morning and crying
and something had happened and she said, I need my
sister and that was it done over, never to be
estranged again.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
That's that's it's amazing. And it makes me sad. I
know it's sorry. No, no, no, it just makes me sad,
not not because of my sister specifically, but because of
the idea that people do find their way past this.
I'll tell you the very big thing, and this is
this is the big difference. And this is going to
sound very harsh, but it's true. Well we do true,
(10:37):
So go okay. My sister and I don't love each other.
And it sounds very harsh because we're in the same family,
but we've never loved each other, like I would she
say that as well? How she said it? Oh yeah,
she can't stand me, which has to do with the
idea of me. Listen, I'm not everyone's cup of tea,
but like, she doesn't even know me. I haven't been
(10:57):
in a room with her. And how do you think
she watches the show? I think the first few seasons now, Listen,
she participated in the first season. I remember that of
the show, but grudgingly she wouldn't allow so we did
this scene where we talked on the phone. I remember
that we used to toy around every once in a
(11:19):
while with making up, and then it would turn into
like an explosive meltdown and like everything would just fall apart.
And I would try. I really did. I would try.
I know, I know on my end that I tried,
And maybe that's why I don't feel guilty about anything,
because I did try. But she wouldn't let them use
her voice, so it sounded like I was making a
(11:39):
fake phone call because she didn't want her voice on camera.
I never wanted her name on camera, didn't want her picture,
and that's fine, and I had to respect that, and
you know, it just never went anywhere. Nothing ever went anywhere.
So it wasn't a big I mean, we've had some big,
explosive fights, but it wasn't like one penultimate kind of
(12:00):
that led to an estrangement. It was just always. I mean,
I do think that my parents made no secret of
kind of favoring me. When I was younger. I was
such a tightwad. I wanted to do everything perfectly. I
(12:20):
graduated sumacom laud from college. I went to a top
twenty five law school. I landed a huge corporate job.
You know, I was a mergers and acquisitions attorney, like
at twenty four years old, killing it.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
And I mean, it's so interesting because I don't want
to you know, I don't want to head into a
different direction right now, but like we've got to cover
that at some point my past life. Like you're a
housewipe of New Jersey from a merger's acquisitions attorney.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
That was. That was a hoot. That was so I'll
tell you the story of that one day.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
But I mean, like my mother would like, you know,
stand on a table and scream, my daughter's a lawyer.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
You know, che is really like you wish mother. She
was so proud and like that. You know, my sister
didn't go to college. She wasn't interested, and that's fine too,
but like she wasn't she didn't have like much of
a work ethic or drive, And I think it was
hard to Your parents are so proud of your sibling,
(13:21):
and yeah, they favor your siblings. And I think she
always that's kind of hated the idea of me. It
can't be me because I've never had anything to do
with her. She doesn't like the idea of me, and
and that's okay, but it's only did.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
You like her at all? Like did you? I know
you say you're saying I wanted to. I really wanted
to about her that you enjoyed.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
Did you ever have fun together? Did you ever together? No?
We were never together, like a few family vacations growing up,
And she was very distant from me. She was never
super social and like really had nothing to do with me.
Now close do you guys live now? She lives about
(14:02):
an hour away. Yeah, but I am very close to
their kids. My mother made sure of that. So her
kids are much older than my not much older, but
they're all adults now, so and I adore them and
they're wonderful kids.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Wow, And why don't her why don't Why doesn't she
have relationships with your kids?
Speaker 1 (14:19):
So, my mother was very involved with my sister's kids
and not as involved with my kids, meaning like she
lived with my sister and helped her take care of them.
So she would always bring my sister's kids to my house.
Got it. My kids and me were not welcome in
(14:40):
my sister's house, so we never went there. Your sister
didn't allow your kids in her house. No, we've been
there like one time. Yeah, here without you. Yeah, they've
only been there like once, I think, yeah, for a
July fourth party. I know. But it's okay, Listen, she's
not She's only shit to me. Other people lover you
(15:00):
know so, and she is wonderful to my brother. We
all are. We all take care of my brother. So,
but you know, it was really only in recent years
that I was like, you know what, I have to
be authentic to myself and I don't think this relationship
is good for me, and I'm not going to try anymore.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Listen, at the end of the day, I suppose what
matters is that you're happy and you are Oh yeah, I.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
Don't think about it. On in theaterday. So I'm saying, like,
it shouldn't you shouldn't. I guess you shouldn't end an
estrangement because you think that it's weird or if your
life is full without that person. The person's only, you know,
bringing you sadness and anger. She doesn't bring me sad
she worrett touch nothing she brings. She brings nothing. And
(15:48):
I you know, they have these like, you know, made
up Facebook holidays where they're like Sister Day, you know,
and just I'm like, my feet is flooded with people saying,
oh God, God gives you an angel on earth and
it's your sister, you know. And I'm always my sister
and I are not angels on from it.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
But I'll be like reading this shit and I'll be like,
how come everybody else gets a great sister. I have
a sister, a half sister. I have actually three half siblings, okay,
and my half sister is younger than my daughter. And yeah,
(16:28):
that's what's your relationship podcast. I mean, we don't really
have one. She I've only met her a few times.
She lives in another state, and I don't want to
talk too much about this, but so I don't know her. Well,
it's it's bizarre.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
And you know, while she was growing up and my
dad was calling to tell me that she got a
green belt in karate, I was like, so did your granddaughter?
Speaker 1 (16:53):
You know?
Speaker 2 (16:54):
So it's it was just strange and only was good
things for her. It's just it's been is a very
unique circumstance.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
Does she live close? No, No, she doesn't. You have
three half siblings. I have three half siblings. Okay, so
do they all have the same mom?
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Noh, so my sister and I have the same mother
and father, my old sister whoever you want to say that,
and the other three half siblings all have the same
father as I do. Yeah, but you know, I've been
through periods of estrangement from my father. I've been, as
I've mentioned before, my one of besides my sister, the
(17:35):
hardest strangements that I've dealt with has been with a
cousin and we didn't speak for a year and a half, which,
again I don't know what that qualifies, but it's for me,
it felt like that over politics. Really, yes, And I
look back at it now and I can't believe that
(17:59):
we got to that point and that was a situation
like my sister, but with my cousin where it was brutal.
I missed her every day. You know my sister too.
But my sister and I were arguing over personal issues
and I was so this was so we said things
that were hurtful to each other. And as soon as
(18:24):
I picked up the phone, it was her birthday, and
I was just I couldn't do it anymore. I picked
up the birthday, I picked up the birthday, I picked
up the phone and I called her on her birthday
and immediately it was over within two seconds.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
You know. Yeah, well that's because there was a foundation. Yes,
there's lots, that's true.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
I guess that's the different And we also people get
a strange not just for the reason that they were
never close or that they had a fight. It's because
relationships are toxic or you know, somebody's abusive, right, And
it doesn't mean the other person is toxic, it's just
that relationship that's toxic.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
Now, let me just preface all of this by saying that, like,
I don't want to take my part out of it.
I do feel like I've tried over the years, but
when we have fought, I've also played my part. So
that's one thing I'm not going to absolve myself. I
so like I have gotten when we have fought, I
have gotten nasty myself.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
She listens to the podcast, which sounds she probably doesn't.
I'm a real fucking softy. So if she does, and
if she called me, I promise you like our fight
would end, it will never happen. It will never happen.
I've been It's been forty years of like efforts and
like nothing. I don't even know that I wanted anymore.
But is she called, she will But if she did,
(19:34):
if she did, yeah, but she's not going to I
guess never going to happen. I just I think it's
interesting and I do you know, it's so funny in
the past few years. I know, I talk about recovery
a lot, but like my mindset on a lot of
things has changed. I know a lot of people we're
not going to talk about the show. A lot of
people think that I have very like different reasons for
my relationships shifting. It's really that I'm in a place
(19:56):
where I know what feels good to me and what doesn't,
and I don't care what anyone else thinks. I'm going
to do what authentically feels good for me. If you
want to.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
Assign different reasons to it, that's fine. That's what these
shows are for, so that people can have an opinion
and talk about it. Right But I know that I
am doing things that feel authentically good to me, and
right now, I'm not interested in trying anymore, which is
very hard because, like I said, society tells you family
(20:28):
over everything. It's different also your relationships on the show,
they're friendships, and there's a big difference. It feels very
different from me when I've been a strange from friends,
and I am a strange from friends, not many of them,
but a couple in terms of my life, as opposed
to being a strange from family and the estrangements I've
(20:48):
had from family. It's they've played on me, right, They're
like always with me. It's like even when everything feels great,
there's a loss. When everything feels there's a loss.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
And I don't know if that is about blood, and
I don't think that everyone feels that way. I think
there's there are abusive family relationships that people are not
only smart to get rid of, but also feel probably
simply relief, but the relationships that I've had in terms
of friendships that are now estranged, they don't play on me,
(21:24):
you know. There of course, there might be moments of
sadness or moments of anger, or moments of you know,
sentimentality looking back. But the family, the family ones, they
were just with me. I felt it all the time,
different from you and your sister.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
Right because because I said, like the foundation that was there.
But then I look at the other relationships in my life,
in my family, it's the only one. So like say,
like on our show, there's many many estrangements, and like
if you are estranged from everyone in your family and
everyone in your spouse's family, then maybe it's you with me.
(21:58):
I couldn't be closer to my mother like we are.
We love each other so much. I couldn't be closer
to my father. I adore him. They have their faults,
so do I.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
But why don't the anybody thinks that it looks at
an estrange when it thinks it's your fault. There's it
takes two to tango, Like I don't, yeah, I don't.
I don't, you know. I wouldn't think to myself, well,
there's something wrong with Jackie you know clearly there's something wrong, you.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
Know, you really do because of this message that society
tells you. So but what would you so, What's what's
your take on the never give up messaging? You know, like,
at a certain point do you give up?
Speaker 2 (22:34):
Well, so, when my sister and I didn't speak, my
mother certainly did not give up. So it sounds like
your parents have resolved the recently.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Yes, For many, many years, they would tell me Jackie,
just apologized to her and let it be over. And
I'd say, first of all, I don't even know what
I'm apologizing for. But second of all, it won't be
over because tomorrow there'll be something new that I have
to apologize for. So I don't. I don't know what
you are, what you expect to happen, you know, I don't,
(23:07):
But I feel bad. I feel sad for them.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
Well, I don't. I don't think that every family estrangement
should be resolved. I don't think that just because it's
blood you should absolutely fix it.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
I don't.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
I don't think that life is short and if it
is taking away from the quality of your life and
you know, causing heartbreak, then better off estranged, Right, I
would if my kids, let's say were estranged. They ever
are a strange It would absolutely break my heart. And
I don't see a scenario where I wouldn't keep trying
(23:40):
to fix it.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
I guess that's that's the thing I can't imagine. So
my four children are well, they're very close in age.
I had four kids under the age of three. I
fear in diapers in my house. That's that's another episode. Wow.
But they're all very close now granted they're all teenagers now,
they all have their own lives, but they love each
(24:02):
other so much. And I can't imagine how hard it
must be to watch your children completely split off from
each other. But at the same time, my sister has
a beautiful life. She has four healthy, smart children. She's
married to the same person since nineteen ninety eight. Like,
she's she's fine, you know, she's I don't know if
(24:25):
she's happy. I have nothing to do with her, but
she seems fine. Yeah, I don't feel sad for her. Yeah,
feels sad for her parents.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
There was a time this is like his were never estranged.
They're very very close. But I remember they were young
and Rachel said something nasty to my son and actually
it's funny because he took this bottle of saracha sauce
and he pounded. He was so frustrated because growing up,
(24:52):
Rachel was just a terror and my son Zach was
just always sweet and easy. But we were all just
like we'd say, we'd like tiptoe around Rachel. She grew
up and she's way different now and we laugh about it.
But so she was just or she was just would
just torment him. And he took this bottle of sarracha
and he slammed it on the kitchen table and I
(25:14):
got all over the ceiling and he ran outside. He
was so upset, and I of course ran after him
and he was crying. He's like, Mom, I'm not crying
because I care for me. I care for you because
I'm just letting you know right now that when I
grow up, I'm never speaking to her again. And I
feel better. I feel that he's so cute. So he
(25:38):
was always like so like sort of sensitive like that.
And we left the sarracha on for years on the ceiling,
Yes we did, and.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Not in this house. Yes, in this house we had it.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
I mean in the kitchen painted I don't know, like
three years ago maybe we've been here for thirteen I
don't know, but I don't know what we were trying.
Why we left it was from what it symbolized exactly,
but we almost just laughed about it.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
You would look at it. Yeah, in my old thought,
this is totally off topic. But in my old house.
We moved to one house in ten a flight before
we moved to our new house, but we had a
really like a double length ceiling whatever you call it
when you walk in, and we took our kids when
they were like a year old to see Sesame Street
live and they brought home an Elma balloon and it
(26:23):
floated up to the.
Speaker 3 (26:23):
Top and we left it there for years because what
we were going to do right, But every time we'd
look at.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
It, we just laughed. We've been there for so long,
and like no one even noticed it.
Speaker 3 (26:32):
But when people did, they'd be like, you know, you
have an elbow out there because it's a beautiful house.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
And then like a big floating at holmohad pies of
heliing some good alia it did. It just stayed.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
Yeah, but we left it up there and laughed about it,
and you know, I knew it was coming from a
child's perspective obviously, but picturing it now, I just it
would break my heart. And I think there's just also
something about, Okay, now we're going to get a little deep,
but mortality, right, And I think for parents thinking about yea,
(27:07):
their mortality, like if I can't, it'd be hard for
me to picture a world that I'm not in and
that where my kids weren't bonded.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
Ye know. I mean my sister has a nice relationship
with my parents too. They've just stopped trying to bring
us together because I think they realized it was feudial.
But here's where the mortality piece comes in. For me,
it's not my own mortality, it's that I don't want
that reconnect. If we ever are going to reconnect, I
don't want it to be at one of our parents' deathbeds.
(27:37):
God forbid. I don't want that to be the moment
because if we are going to come back together with
my parents to experience it right, Because.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
Okay, so again I'm not I'm not a shrink, and
I don't I don't know really the intricate details of
you and your sister, but thinking feeling that way like
you would make them so happy, just for that reason.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
Is there a part of you that we're going to
end in podcast. You're going to pick up the phone.
I'm not going to pick up so many times. And
I will tell you honestly, there's no interest on her
part the way that I am. Jen. I am so
open to always reconciling unless you've done something to me
that is so unbelievably painful that I can't move past it. Then,
(28:28):
like you've you've I can't even explain unless you've done
something to me that's so unbelievably hurtful, I can really
move past things. I'm good at that I'm good at,
not just sweeping it under the rug.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
And it doesn't sound like though with you and your sister,
it's been anything specifically one like one thing that was
so painful. It's more just a lifetime of.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
Miss there's nothing there. It's like telling me, like, if
you want to reconcile with my neighbor Sue, and I
don't know your neighbor Sue. You know, that's what it
feels like to me. I don't know her, which is
weird because we share the same parents. I don't know her,
So would I reconcile with her? Yeah? I would, but
it's not because I love her and miss her. Yeah,
(29:07):
you know that's the difference. I don't love and miss
her because I don't know her. It's more so that
this piece of me that feels like there is I
have a sister in the world and I don't know her.
That feels that's always going to feel strange to me.
Whether or not. It's not really about like losing a
loved one, like not losing a loved one, but like
(29:27):
losing a relationship, a loving relationship. That's not it. It's
that I'm very uncomfortable with the idea of having a
sister and having no relationship with her, even if I
never did.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
What about family members relationships that are toxic and but
you make the decision to keep that relationship or keep
the person in your life. And you always hear about
the difficulty right of like things giving or you know, family,
big family get togethers, and what's healthy there. We probably
should have had a we can doctor on and we
(30:09):
can what.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
I think is healthy there, maybe not estrangement, but space.
You know, you come together at certain holidays, but like
even take the holidays. Let's say you say that Thanksgiving
is no fun when Uncle John comes, like it's torture
and he criticizes. You know, I've had people in my
past who would come and you know, point out the
(30:33):
flaws in my weight over the years, and I was
so uncomfortable with them. But you can't can't cut off family.
My parents never cut people out, you know, even if
they were disasters, you know, because and.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
They probably they probably does kill them. I mean, do
they talk to you about you and your sister? They
just completely you said they gave up.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
Oh yeah, they gave up. They gave up a few
years ago. They realized both of us have full lives
without each other in it, and they have They've gotten
used to it. Listen, there are worse things than not
having your all your kids in the same room at
the same time. Yeah, yeah, of course it sucks, but
they also have very full lives. They see her. This
(31:12):
is why so we for many years, Evan and I
would we would alternate holidays because my parents would go
to her one year and they would come to me
one year. So in the off years we go to
his parents, you know, so because he's also got siblings,
a sister, and she lives in the city, so like
it wasn't always like everyone could be at one place.
(31:34):
In recent years, everythingsgiving has been at my house because
our parents are all older now, no one wants to
cook and host and everything, right, So I'm happy to
have it at my home. But you know, for we're
never together for holidays, So yeah, it's so I'm just
thinking about you know, we talked about doing this today's episode,
(31:55):
and talk were really started out just talking about family
and family dynamic and not just estrangement, but the difficulty
sometimes of having family members that you don't relationships that
you don't drive any joy from, right, and had to
kind of handle that and still the wanting to maintain
(32:17):
some kind of relationship. I can't say that. I well,
you know, my relationship relationships with my parents have changed
so much over the years, right, And I come from
family that's been divorced. My father it was divorced three times.
(32:40):
My mom's my mom, they divorced when we were really
really young, and then my mom remarried and her husband
died and there was another one. So it's been a
lot of divorce. And my relationship with my parents today
is so different than it was. There are times times
(33:01):
where I didn't speak to my father, and like, you know,
I do say to him now because we're in a
much better place. As I've gotten older, it's gotten, you know,
way better. But he made a lot of mistakes. I
was a kid, so I'm not going to take too
much responsibility for that. And he would say to me,
(33:23):
you know, I didn't have any I didn't have any
frame of reference. My father was a horrible father.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
And so you know, as we as I got older,
there were times where I would just cut him out right,
or maybe he would cut me out. But now I'm
fifty five years old and my father's eighty two years old,
and there have been lots of there's been lots of reflection,
there's been lots of apology, and I'd rather have him
(33:53):
in my life than not. Yes, And you know, I
say too, I talked about this in there a lot
that I don't want regret and I don't want my
father to one day, a million years from now pass
away and feel like there was more I would have
(34:14):
wanted to say, or I would have wanted to have
more a more loving relationship with him, And we've been
through it. Let me assure you that in terms of
my childhood I've been through it again. That's for another episode.
But as I've gotten older, I prefer to have, you know,
(34:37):
my father in my life, and I do love him,
and I know that he loves me, and he has
reflected on his life and is very open to seeing
the reality of what it was. When we were younger,
my mom had it really really difficult. She you know,
(34:57):
she was a single mom for while before she got remarried.
She had very difficult marriages. We had very difficult stepfathers,
and for that matter, we had a stepmother. It wasn't
great there.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
Anyway. Wow, I think, are you in touch with any
of your stepfathers? No? No, on one? Now? Oh your
mom is married now? Yeah, okay, yeah, and he is
the best. Oh, I love that. See. But also your
father is trying, like he realizes mistakes that he made
when he was younger, and he's trying. And that's that's
a big piece of it.
Speaker 2 (35:30):
My mom, you know, in our relationship there was we
really had like a come to Jesus and I didn't
want to pretend anymore like my childhood was okay, And
it was really hard at the beginning of that conversation
and the conversation lasted probably a couple of years. But
you know, my mom is who dealt with so much,
(35:52):
and I look at our lives together and think about
what she had to overcome and how difficult it was
for her. But now you know, we got through it,
and she she really, you know, said she's made her
amends to me, as I will have to make to
my children because I know that I have. I like
(36:14):
to think of myself as the perfect mother, but I guess.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
What I wasn't. Really, what do you think you did?
I know I wasn't and I know that you weren't,
and I know what I did that I think is
like horrific is the things that I showed my children,
The way that you treat yourself and the way that
you starve yourself. I can't undo these things that I've shown,
and I know it sounds very vague right now, but
(36:36):
the habits that I displayed in front of my children
are horrific. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
Well, again, I am uber aware that not there's not
a parent out there that's perfect, no matter what you
see on social media, and my mom was imperfect. Now
our relationship is such that I cry every time I
leave her. She's only lose a long island, but I
just want to be with her all the time. There
(37:03):
is nothing more comforting to me than just holding our hand.
I'm going to get choked up. And there have been
times where our relationship was not good, but yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
Mine too, but like great now, And I think a
big piece of that is understanding. You know, when I
was younger, I would make rash decisions and I would
assume people's intentions and a lot of that, A lot
of therapy has helped me to really see things from
other people's perspective. So, for example, and this will sound shocking,
(37:36):
but my mother still hasn't read my book. She read
the first few chapters and then stopped. This was too
painful for her. Well, I kept saying to her at
the beginning of the you know, when I first came out,
I was like, you know, insulting it is to me
that you haven't read it, and she'd be like, I'm
going to read it. I'm going to read it. And
then I think, after like six months, I said to her,
I can't believe you still haven't read it, and she said, Jackie,
(37:57):
it's hard for me. It's hard for me to like
read this stuff that you did for yourself, And I said,
you know what, enough said, don't do anything that you
don't want to do. Like I understand, I understand, and
like I just because I can see things now, I'm
mature enough to see things from other people's perspectives, I understand.
(38:18):
Is it insulting now, No, because I get it, Like
I don't know that I could read a story about
my daughter like almost killing yourself, you know, So I
just you know, there is this like piece of me
that will always feel there is and it's not my sister.
It's the idea of my sister, an emptiness because of
(38:41):
what it could have been, and it isn't. But like
I said, I just don't want it to like re.
I don't want it to like for our relationship to
start on a parent's stepbed. I hope that's not the case.
I either wanted to never happen or I want it
to happen so that my parents can see it and
enjoy it for fear, But you know, I don't. It
(39:02):
doesn't play into my everyday life. It plays in on
these stupid like holidays. And I have unfortunate I have
very close college girlfriends. One in particular, her name is Ali,
and she is like she is the closest thing I
have to a sister, but it's not a sister. It's
not you know, it doesn't replace a sister. And I
have very close friends and tenify I just like nothing
(39:26):
replaces that relationship.
Speaker 2 (39:27):
You know that well, you know for me because my
sister and I had it. We didn't have an easy childhood,
but there's this one experience that we had that we
always for and this was by far not the even
remotely the hardest thing that we went through. But we
would leave, we would go to visit my father and
(39:48):
get on the plane. So my mom we moved to
Texas when I was nine years old, So we'd get
on the plane to go back to Texas and we
would both be crying, and I would just hold my
sister on the plane and like she was, you know,
she's only fourteen months younger than I am, on your
way to Texas or because because a lot of reasons,
(40:10):
but we you know, he was as much as he
was not. It wasn't great, but it was still our
father and it was still we had a lot going on,
and so but I would just hold her like she
was my little girl, and we talk about it, not
a lot, but we talk about it to this day
as no one can understand that but us, do you
(40:30):
know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (40:31):
Like that's.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
No one will understand all of it, like Robin does,
like my sister doesn't. And not just the bad, right,
but the good. No one, That relationship is not replaceable, right.
Speaker 1 (40:45):
And that's why I say like there is something to
the friends who are family. I strongly feel that with
some of my friends, like I could tell them anything,
I could be anywhere with them, right, But I don't.
I don't think anything actually replaces family. But it's okay.
I mean not everything in life is going to be perfect,
and that's all right. And this is one relationship I
don't get to have well, and I'm okay with it.
(41:07):
And I think that a lot of times it's better
to be estranged. You know, they didn't. And for anyone
out there who has a toxic family member in your
life that you are strange. From my take, it is
okay me to protect your peace and forget what everyone
says about how you never give up on family and
you always have to keep trying if that is toxic
(41:28):
for you, and you feel that authentically in your heart,
let it go.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
Every Listen. I think every case is different, right, and
I think there are certainly, certainly many many cases where
I would advise someone I love if something was toxic
or if a family member was hurting them obviously to
rid them right or get rid of that relationship. So
it's more difficult, I think sometimes with family, but sometimes
(41:53):
it is necessary. And we are not experts, so you know,
I don't really have I can just we can only
share our own experience, strength, hope and you know what
we've been through. But I would never feel I would
never look down on somebody that is strange, like I
don't in.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
Your sister, Yeah, judge that. And like I said, she's
not bad to other people. We just she's just it's
not that she's even bad to me, Like he's also
that you don't miss her.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
It's not ye, I don't want when it's the idea right,
when I'm not strange from family members, I it was
it was just it was on me. It was this
cloud that followed me. It wasn't easy, and it wasn't
it didn't feel like I was complete.
Speaker 1 (42:34):
Yeah, can I tell you something that I do struggle
with them? I struggle with whether or not my kids
should refer to her as their aunt, because I know
that sounds harsh, but I don't want them to feel
like they have an aunt in their lives that they
don't know. I don't want them to feel like they're
missing something. So I have them call her by her
first name, if and when they ever refer to her,
(42:56):
because my parents sometimes refer to her, and they're close
with their cousins, so I refer to her, and so
I have them not call her aunt, but my mother
refers to her as aunt. So it's very strange because
I don't want my kids to feel like they're missing something,
and they don't, but I don't want it to be
(43:17):
awkward for them to feel like they haven't it. This
is just me getting you know, psychobabble whatever. But do
you think that's in part because it would be just
painful for you to hear that. No. I think it's
because I don't want my children to feel like they're
missing a relationship in their life. I don't want them
to feel like it's on them. You don't want them
(43:38):
to feel like they're missing a relationship too. I would think,
what do you mean? I mean that, like hearing them
say aunt would also bring themselves.
Speaker 3 (43:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:46):
I mean, it's also like I don't want them to
feel like it's on them to fix you know, if
she's just the first name, then she's just a person.
But if she's an aunt, there's something about that blood
tie that makes you feel like you should be doing
something more. Have you ever done any of these twenty
(44:11):
three and me ancestry dot com. No.
Speaker 2 (44:15):
My friend Iris bought me one once, and I don't
know why I never sent it in. I think because
it was like a big brother's looking or something, you
know what I mean, Like they say, don't do What
is the other one that you can do with twenty
three and me? Is that twenty three of me where
you can tell, like all the details of your past
and where you're from.
Speaker 1 (44:34):
And I think so. But anyway, I know I've avoided them. Okay,
I've avoided them because I don't think I want to know.
I think that I'm I think you can only bring
you know. I've read the pros and cons of discovering
new family members, and I'm not so sure that I
want to Why I think I am. I've experienced a
(44:55):
lot with the sister thing, right, It's something that had
been on my mind for a very long time. And
I think I'm so content with the other relationships in
my family right now that I don't I don't want
to introduce something that could potentially muddy the water. Interesting. Yeah,
that definitely wasn't why I didn't didn't send that kid. Oh, so,
(45:19):
like if I discovered that I have a half sibling, Like,
do I want to know how that happened? Because my
parents have been married for a very long time. I go,
I almost don't want to know. That's interesting. You know.
Does it tell you if you have a half sibling?
I don't know, I think so.
Speaker 2 (45:31):
Or does it just tell you? I thought I just
told your history. I think of an ancestry.
Speaker 1 (45:35):
I think I've had friends who told me they discovered
a first cousin. Oh my gosh. Yeah, you know for
me that you say it wrong. Let me know if
I'm wrong.
Speaker 2 (45:43):
You know, I even now as I'm getting older. And
this might sound a little disingenuous, because I did get
on a show called, I don't know if you've heard
of it, The Real Housewives. I'm not trasy, and it's
about it has been about making new friends and new
relationships and all of that, and and maybe not so much.
But anyway, I'm not.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
I don't.
Speaker 2 (46:03):
I'm not as open to new even new friendships as
I used to be, and I don't really I'm not
really looking for that many new relationships. And certainly if
it's a new family member, I probably I would never
reject anyone, but I'm out looking for that. I don't
know that I want more ties.
Speaker 1 (46:28):
Is that I think that's what it is with me too.
I don't. I don't want more blood relationships that might
not pan out in a good way. Yeah, I don't really.
So if you're listening and you think we maybe related,
lose my number. How you have it? But you know,
I do. I do look at my children and I think,
you know, and then I think to myself, you know,
(46:49):
for a long time, I actually blamed my parents. I was.
I was more of a hothead in my like thirties,
and I used to say to them, God, if it
was me, I would have put me and my sister
together in a room and fucking tied her hands together
and said, you're not leaving this room until you guys
find a way to love each other. And I just
(47:10):
I think it was a different relationship in a different
childhood at a different time than it is with my kids.
Because that's what I would do with my kids now,
if they were ever at the point of not speaking
to each other for a significant period of time, I
would put them in a room together and be like,
you are going to figure this out. There is no
way this is happening in our family. But my family
was different. My family was different. Growing up. My parents
(47:32):
worked full time at a disabled brother. Like I said,
they had a lot of issues. We had my grandparents
living with us. My grandfather had dementia, my grandmother had
pancreatic cancer. Like it was a lot going on, and
no one had time for the shit fights between me
and my sister. What about this scenario. What about when
(47:56):
let's say our kids one day, if they decide to
get married and something happens with your daughter in law
or your son in law and you or you know,
I think about there's you always hear about that. That's
such a statistic.
Speaker 2 (48:10):
It's such a difficult relationship, that in law relationship. I
was very lucky. I got a mother in law and
a father in law who unfortunately aren't here anymore, but
who were just wonderful in every single way. But you
hear all the time about that relationship and how difficult
it is, and then you see relationships and brothers and
sisters and mothers and sons and daughters and being torn apart, right, Yeah,
(48:33):
and that must be.
Speaker 1 (48:35):
Just a bit. That must be I like you, I'm
so fortunate. I love my mother and father in law
so much. They're really I mean, my mother in law
is amazing, my father in law is like the warmest
person that you can imagine, and my parents are very
good to my husband. So I don't have to deal
with it in my life. And I would hope that
(48:56):
you know, despite what you see it you see things
on the show, I really am very open to always
trying to work things out with people. No relationship or
friendship has ever closed off to me unless you really
do something horrific. So I'm hoping that having that mindset
keeps that from ever happening. Now, if my son marries
an asshole, or even with that, let's say, let's.
Speaker 2 (49:18):
Say that your son marries an asshole, and so you
stop speaking to each other, and for whatever reason, his
wife hates your guts or you hate whatever it is,
do you as the mother, Do you ever give up?
Do you always keep trying to?
Speaker 1 (49:35):
Do? You know your children?
Speaker 2 (49:37):
I can't, I can't, I know, but it happens. It
happens as a very complicated difference. So or imagine that,
you know, like one of us, I didn't like or
my father in law and it was so bad that
I didn't want anything to do with him or didn't
want him to have anything to do with my children.
And my husband is put in that position of having
(49:59):
to use right in a way. That's a tough line.
I don't I don't know what I'm marry. Lucky me
to have avoided that, but yeah, and I think as
a I don't know because I don't have grandchildren, and
you know, I don't know what the future holds. I
would think that no matter what, my kids ain't getting
away from me, like no matter what.
Speaker 1 (50:19):
No matter I think. And this is going to sound
a little but that might be naive, veryo typical, but
I think your son, you obviously have to let them
love their wife more and that man, I.
Speaker 2 (50:31):
Don't know how I'm going to be differently, you know,
I don't know how that's going to feel, but I
I hope that I wouldn't need if it meant that
I had to bend, and you know, I had, and
I think as you get older that's harder and harder,
but change some things and just boundaries. I would hope
that I would do anything and everything right. Like being
(50:54):
a strange from your kid has got to just be
a bitch.
Speaker 1 (50:57):
Yeah, I don't even want to think about that. But
I also don't want to be up my kids' assholes,
like when they're when they have their own families. I
don't want to live with them and raise their children.
I want to obviously be so super close, but I
want to spend my fourth quarter traveling. I missed out
on a lot because of my illness, and I want
(51:19):
to spend my fourth quarter traveling and having you know,
I just you know, doing living my life.
Speaker 2 (51:28):
That's another We've done an episode about this, but I
think that that's so huge. Like my mom to this day,
she runs and I'm not even exaggerating, it's like sounds ridiculous,
but she runs five miles or she swims one hundred
and fifty laps. Then she goes and she plays maaj on.
She was taking current affairs classes and not just that
(51:48):
she is. She was never she was always busy, Like,
she wasn't just doting all the time.
Speaker 1 (51:54):
She had a life.
Speaker 2 (51:54):
And she used to say to me when I would
get pissed because she didn't do something for me, for
I got a life.
Speaker 1 (52:01):
I was also a very present grandmother. Oh my god,
my kids were. See my mother is like right, like
raised my sister's kids with her. I like the most,
like she would live at my house with me. But
I'm not that person. I adore my mother. We've had
our tough times, but I adore my mother, and my
kids love her so much. They love both my parents
(52:23):
so much. But I won't be the grandparent who's always now.
Speaker 2 (52:29):
My mother was not like. She wasn't my go to babysitter.
First of all, she lived on Long Island and there's
a lot of Jeff Fesster. I lived in New Jersey.
I just kidding, just kidding, love New Jersey. But anyway,
so she couldn't right. But she was also busy, you know,
and to this day is busy. And I think as
a result of that, happier. I think maybe I'm wrong,
(52:53):
Maybe those maybe there are those relationships, and maybe as
I get older, I'll be happier, you know, living for
my grandkids. But I kind of think I'm going to
take my mom's lead.
Speaker 1 (53:03):
Yeah, you're going to be traveling the world with me. Yes,
we have lots of places to go.
Speaker 2 (53:08):
That is also I mean, that's that's the hope, right,
that's the fourth quarter hope, and not just that I'm
just traveling the world.
Speaker 1 (53:14):
But just you know, by the way, we're not on
the fourth quarter. We're not. I was about to say
that's the fourth quarter. No, I think fourth quarter. People
are living longer now, so I think, like, if you
live till what eighty five ninety, fourth quarter is not
until like late sixties. So let's thank it's just Russia. Yeah,
we're not rushing it. I'm sorry. Maybe I meant the
you know, the back What does Evan say? He refers
(53:34):
to everything in golf terms? Back nine. I won't understand
any of that. Yeah, that's one thing I won't be
doing in my third or fourth course. No, no, no, no,
you want to know just a quick story. When I
was looking for jobs and I was in law school
and my father is a very like different time. You know.
This was in the nineties. I graduated law school in
(53:54):
O one. But I was looking for jobs in like
two thousand and I had very strong grades. I had
a lot of great interviews. Law firms lined up, and
my father took me aside, and you said, I want
you to take a few golf lessons, because when you're
sitting down for an interview, I want you to be
able to talk about golf with the partners. So did
my grandparents.
Speaker 2 (54:14):
They said all the time, you have to either golf
or tennis, neither. But so they would harp on me
about it, and I was like, no, thanks to it.
Speaker 1 (54:25):
Right, not my father, but just like the world that
you have to know about golf to impress a male partner.
Speaker 2 (54:30):
And also right, I think that was probably I was single,
but also they just thought that was the way to
meet people.
Speaker 1 (54:34):
Yeah, okay, without I took a few golf lessons, and
I'm not ashamed to say that I think it's the
most boring sport in the whole world. And I haven't
sell attraction. I do t I do like tennis.
Speaker 2 (54:46):
No, I have no interest, although sometimes I think pickleball
sounds like and not that it sounds appealing to me,
but because so many people love it and because you
don't apparently need a lot of athletic ability.
Speaker 1 (54:58):
Who knows, I don't know anything about pickle well, but
let me wrap by saying this, I think you're very
lucky because I think I've met your mother and I've
met your sister many times, and your sister is wonderful.
And I'm you know, even though it's more the idea
of my of us sister, I'm there's a piece of
me that is jealous and that does get sad on
(55:18):
like sister holidays. And I don't even know what I
would say to my sister if she's listening. You know,
I'm always I'm not going to reach out and try, really,
but I'm always open to coming back, not even coming
back together because we never were together. But I know
you're not sad about it. But even I'm getting choked
up just yeah, I mean, because it does. It does
feel like avoid avoid of the idea of it, but
(55:41):
not avoid of the actual person. But I don't know.
I'm sometimes curious if there would be something there because
we are blood. But you know, it's not like something's
missing in my life. It's the idea of it that's missing.
But that being said, you know they're they're very nuanced.
The family estrangements very nuanced. It's never an easy like
(56:02):
this is what happened, and this is why. You know,
I'm sure there's always a million sides to the story,
but you know it's hard for anyone going through it,
no matter how long you've been estranged. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (56:11):
So, uh, I guess we sum it up by saying,
what do we know? Because there are times that the
stranger is a good thing, yeah, for sure, right yeah,
and many times where it's not.
Speaker 1 (56:23):
I think it's a good thing for me right now,
like my life is more peaceful and not having a
fighting family member in it. And uh, but you know,
let's say, like my therapist always says, let life unfold, Jackie,
stop worry so much about things you can't control. Let
it unfold. You let me know. When you learn to
do that, you can help me to do that.
Speaker 2 (56:43):
Mine says the same thing. Be present, be present, be present.
I'm like, listen, stop telling me to be present. I'm
already like three years about Yeah.
Speaker 1 (56:51):
And anyway, this was great. I love this felt like
therapy to me. It did it.
Speaker 2 (56:55):
It's like it's nice also that it was kind of
just us delving in. Yeah, I hope you guys, I
don't know. I mean, we're not therapist, so I don't
think we could have helped you in Anybody in the
comments we're sharing at least maybe shared experiences.
Speaker 1 (57:06):
Yeah, for sure, And trust me, I think it'd be
hard pressed to find many people who don't have at
least one very tough, toxic relationship in their family. Agreed.
Speaker 2 (57:15):
Yeah, on that happy note, Love to you all, Love
you guys, I see you next time.
Speaker 1 (57:20):
Bye bye
Hey, everyone, it's Jackie Golschneider and Jennifer Wessler. We are
two Jersey Jays. Hi. Guys, Hi, we don't have a
guest today, which I kind of love because I kind
of love just like talking to you. I do too.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
I kind of like having just this back and forth,
you know. I also obviously we both love having guests.
We have actually some really cool ones. Yeah, wind up,
Yes we do.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Today it's just us. Yeah, and it's a really it's
an interesting topic, Greed agreed, a topic that both of
us actually have a lot of things to say about.
So today's topic is family relationships, and I think a
big part of that is estrangement sometimes unfortunately, that is
a big part of it on our show right now,
(00:47):
without going into any detail, there's a lot of family estrangements.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Yes, unfortunately, And you know, I've had some estrangements within
my family. I still actually do, not personally, but family members.
I think it's just really really difficult. Sometimes it's for
the best, other times not so much. But you know,
I think that it's something that most people have either
(01:16):
dealt with or have had loved ones deal with, you know.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
And it's funny that you say that because when I so,
I have like a very specific family estrangement that has
always I don't know, I waver between it bothering me
and it not bothering me. But I always kind of
felt like I was the only person. And now I
see how common it is, But for a long time,
I always felt like, why does everybody else get a
(01:42):
perfect family unit and mine is so dub Not that
my family is stup, but this relationship is so like
far gone, but I always felt like nobody else has
to deal with this, well except for me.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Both just did an article about family estrangements and there's
apparently there's a no contact family hashtag and it's garnered
just millions of views. So according to Psychology Today, at
least one in four people actually experience estrangements, which seems
like a huge number to me.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Well, it doesn't seem that huge to me because in
my family, and like my parents are very nice people,
my mother is estranged from her sister. My father was
estranged from his brother for twenty years before his brother died,
and I have always since as far back as I
can remember, I've been a strange from my sister. Well,
(02:36):
start talking, Oh, way to talk about it. No, no, no,
So tell me. You know, here's the difficulty. Before I
go into the I'm not going to really go out
of respect for my sister, I will not go into
like specifics of what you know has happened over the years,
but like there's never been a relationship there. So there's
been aggression, there's been fighting because there's no respect or
(02:57):
love there. I think that would almost make it easier, right, Yeah,
I mean it's not hard for me on a daily basis.
I don't care. What's hard for me is knowing that
I have a living blood sister who lives in the
same state as me that I have no relationship with.
It's very strange to me that my children don't know her.
(03:18):
They couldn't pick her out of a lineup. Wow, it's
weird to me, you know, And I think that's what
bothers me is more like the idea of it, not
that I actually want a relationship with her. And you
have nieces and nephews are yeah, who I love who
I'm very relationship with them. Yes, do you have a
very long story, but she doesn't have one with yours.
So my which we started at the beginning. Yeah, let's
(03:42):
let's start at the start. So you know, I never
had a relationship with my sister. She's five years older
than me. Growing up, she really wanted nothing to do
with me. I have to believe it's her, because how
do you hate a five year old? You know, so
she she I had nothing to do and they wanted
nothing to do with you, Like where was your mom?
(04:02):
And this just never played with you. Didn't help much
older My parents worked full time and I had a
disabled brother, so I still have a disabled brother. No
that how much older is your sister? Five years? Okay,
so nobody had time for this, like like fighting sisters nonsense,
Like my parents had all because you thought that much
because we were so far apart in age. It wasn't
even that we would fight. It was I felt from
(04:24):
my perspective, it was that I was like she was
just like torture me, Like it was hell yeah, and
like the few times that my parents left her to
babysit me, like it just wasn't good at all. And
then when I was thirteen, we moved and she was eighteen,
she moved out, so like my parents got our condo
(04:45):
just to get her the fuck out of the house
and that was it. We've hardly seen each other since,
so there wasn't a big blowout. It was just we're
not close. We never have been close. We just don't
like each other. Blowout because but there was never good times.
There was only blowout, so like there was no contact
and then she'd have a fight with my parents and
stick me in the middle of that fight. Now we
(05:06):
did have a fight, my mom would try to get
us together, and then the fights would be even more
explosive because it always ended in a fight, and I
just it just never worked. So there's the part of
me that so I gave up a few years ago,
not interested anymore. Wasn't good for me, wasn't good for
(05:27):
my husband, wasn't good for our family, And I don't
there's nothing to miss, you know, it's just weird to me.
It feels weird. And here's what feels weirder is that
society tells you that you can never give up on family,
and for a long time that made me feel like
I was giving up too easily. And so every few
(05:51):
months I would send a text message or I would
be like, do you want to try? Do you want
to meet for lunch? Do you want to and then
it just would never go anywhere, and I felt very conflicted,
like how much how do you balance this message from
society that you have to keep trying, that you don't
give up on family with this feeling that something is
(06:13):
just not good for you or a relationship adds nothing
to your life.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
And it was Yeah, I feel like that narrative, though,
has changed. I feel like there's so much that I
see on social media about you know, being you know,
friends or chosen family, or when something's toxic, how to
walk away from it, including family. I feel like I
see more and more of that. You don't see that, yes.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
I do, but I think when it's your life and
you see how it interferes with your family dynamic, Like, look,
I'm for forty seven years old. My life is pretty
solid without the relationship with my sister in it. But
I do feel very I'm very aware of the fact
(06:58):
that my original family, not the family I have now.
We are never in the same room together, except if
it's like a huge occasion like someone's born mitzvah or something,
and then there's no contact between us. But we're in
the same room, but we never have family. It's interesting
to me that.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
So my experience with family estrangement has not been well.
Depends what you define as long term, right, Like I've
gone a year without speaking to my sister. I've gone
a year without speaking to a cousin who I'm very
very very close to, even estrangement. Not speaking to one
of my parents for months. Is that a strangement or
(07:39):
is that just a I don't know.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
That's a break.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
But it's interesting to me because nothing specifically happened between
you and your sister. I can't imagine that both of
you haven't grown and evolved and changed, and yet you're
both nobody is like you're You're just don't feel like
you even have a yearning to talk to her or
have her be part of your life. And I think
(08:03):
that maybe because you have never been closed my periods
of estrangement. For instance, with my sister, I want to say,
maybe over a year we didn't speak. I don't know
what's kid considered. I mean, at that point, did I
say we were estranged?
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Maybe?
Speaker 2 (08:17):
I don't with the dictionary what the definition of estrangement is,
but it I was so angry and she was so angry.
Do you want to talk about It's hard. This is
hard because I don't really but I can. I can
tell you that we were always so Robin and I
my sister were fourteen months apart, so I am older,
(08:39):
and I would growing up, I would terrorize her by
and we'd laugh about it. Now, you know. My mom
would leave us together and I'd be like, this is
a line, and I'd draw some imaginary line down the
living room. If you cross it, I will beat the
shit out of you or whatever it was. And we
were also best friends and both right, but we were
fighting and calling each other horrible names. And that was
(09:02):
just the nature of it, right, two girls growing up
in the same house, and as we got older, no
one could say anything to me that would get under
my skin as much as my sister, and I think
that's I know that that's true for her as well.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
Right, We could really.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
Just just strike a chord with each other anyway. We've
certainly had our share of fights. We don't really anymore, thankfully,
But whatever happened, and we didn't speak for a year,
and I just remember it being as much as I
tried to deny it, and I would say to my
mom specifically because she was so torn up about it right,
and I'm going to die one day and you're not
(09:40):
going to have each other. And I would say to her,
I don't miss her, I don't care, I don't like her.
It's my life is complete and I don't meet her
in it. And I was lying not only to my mom,
I was lying to myself because it was just this
weight that I carried around. And so, probably over a
(10:02):
year into our quote unquote estrangement, I got a call
from her I'll never forget it, one morning and crying
and something had happened and she said, I need my
sister and that was it done over, never to be
estranged again.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
That's that's it's amazing. And it makes me sad. I
know it's sorry. No, no, no, it just makes me sad,
not not because of my sister specifically, but because of
the idea that people do find their way past this.
I'll tell you the very big thing, and this is
this is the big difference. And this is going to
sound very harsh, but it's true. Well we do true,
(10:37):
So go okay. My sister and I don't love each other.
And it sounds very harsh because we're in the same family,
but we've never loved each other, like I would she
say that as well? How she said it? Oh yeah,
she can't stand me, which has to do with the
idea of me. Listen, I'm not everyone's cup of tea,
but like, she doesn't even know me. I haven't been
(10:57):
in a room with her. And how do you think
she watches the show? I think the first few seasons now, Listen,
she participated in the first season. I remember that of
the show, but grudgingly she wouldn't allow so we did
this scene where we talked on the phone. I remember
that we used to toy around every once in a
(11:19):
while with making up, and then it would turn into
like an explosive meltdown and like everything would just fall apart.
And I would try. I really did. I would try.
I know, I know on my end that I tried,
And maybe that's why I don't feel guilty about anything,
because I did try. But she wouldn't let them use
her voice, so it sounded like I was making a
(11:39):
fake phone call because she didn't want her voice on camera.
I never wanted her name on camera, didn't want her picture,
and that's fine, and I had to respect that, and
you know, it just never went anywhere. Nothing ever went anywhere.
So it wasn't a big I mean, we've had some big,
explosive fights, but it wasn't like one penultimate kind of
(12:00):
that led to an estrangement. It was just always. I mean,
I do think that my parents made no secret of
kind of favoring me. When I was younger. I was
such a tightwad. I wanted to do everything perfectly. I
(12:20):
graduated sumacom laud from college. I went to a top
twenty five law school. I landed a huge corporate job.
You know, I was a mergers and acquisitions attorney, like
at twenty four years old, killing it.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
And I mean, it's so interesting because I don't want
to you know, I don't want to head into a
different direction right now, but like we've got to cover
that at some point my past life. Like you're a
housewipe of New Jersey from a merger's acquisitions attorney.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
That was. That was a hoot. That was so I'll
tell you the story of that one day.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
But I mean, like my mother would like, you know,
stand on a table and scream, my daughter's a lawyer.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
You know, che is really like you wish mother. She
was so proud and like that. You know, my sister
didn't go to college. She wasn't interested, and that's fine too,
but like she wasn't she didn't have like much of
a work ethic or drive, And I think it was
hard to Your parents are so proud of your sibling,
(13:21):
and yeah, they favor your siblings. And I think she
always that's kind of hated the idea of me. It
can't be me because I've never had anything to do
with her. She doesn't like the idea of me, and
and that's okay, but it's only did.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
You like her at all? Like did you? I know
you say you're saying I wanted to. I really wanted
to about her that you enjoyed.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
Did you ever have fun together? Did you ever together? No?
We were never together, like a few family vacations growing up,
And she was very distant from me. She was never
super social and like really had nothing to do with me.
Now close do you guys live now? She lives about
(14:02):
an hour away. Yeah, but I am very close to
their kids. My mother made sure of that. So her
kids are much older than my not much older, but
they're all adults now, so and I adore them and
they're wonderful kids.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Wow, And why don't her why don't Why doesn't she
have relationships with your kids?
Speaker 1 (14:19):
So, my mother was very involved with my sister's kids
and not as involved with my kids, meaning like she
lived with my sister and helped her take care of them.
So she would always bring my sister's kids to my house.
Got it. My kids and me were not welcome in
(14:40):
my sister's house, so we never went there. Your sister
didn't allow your kids in her house. No, we've been
there like one time. Yeah, here without you. Yeah, they've
only been there like once, I think, yeah, for a
July fourth party. I know. But it's okay, Listen, she's
not She's only shit to me. Other people lover you
(15:00):
know so, and she is wonderful to my brother. We
all are. We all take care of my brother. So,
but you know, it was really only in recent years
that I was like, you know what, I have to
be authentic to myself and I don't think this relationship
is good for me, and I'm not going to try anymore.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Listen, at the end of the day, I suppose what
matters is that you're happy and you are Oh yeah, I.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
Don't think about it. On in theaterday. So I'm saying, like,
it shouldn't you shouldn't. I guess you shouldn't end an
estrangement because you think that it's weird or if your
life is full without that person. The person's only, you know,
bringing you sadness and anger. She doesn't bring me sad
she worrett touch nothing she brings. She brings nothing. And
(15:48):
I you know, they have these like, you know, made
up Facebook holidays where they're like Sister Day, you know,
and just I'm like, my feet is flooded with people saying,
oh God, God gives you an angel on earth and
it's your sister, you know. And I'm always my sister
and I are not angels on from it.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
But I'll be like reading this shit and I'll be like,
how come everybody else gets a great sister. I have
a sister, a half sister. I have actually three half siblings, okay,
and my half sister is younger than my daughter. And yeah,
(16:28):
that's what's your relationship podcast. I mean, we don't really
have one. She I've only met her a few times.
She lives in another state, and I don't want to
talk too much about this, but so I don't know her. Well,
it's it's bizarre.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
And you know, while she was growing up and my
dad was calling to tell me that she got a
green belt in karate, I was like, so did your granddaughter?
Speaker 1 (16:53):
You know?
Speaker 2 (16:54):
So it's it was just strange and only was good
things for her. It's just it's been is a very
unique circumstance.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
Does she live close? No, No, she doesn't. You have
three half siblings. I have three half siblings. Okay, so
do they all have the same mom?
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Noh, so my sister and I have the same mother
and father, my old sister whoever you want to say that,
and the other three half siblings all have the same
father as I do. Yeah, but you know, I've been
through periods of estrangement from my father. I've been, as
I've mentioned before, my one of besides my sister, the
(17:35):
hardest strangements that I've dealt with has been with a
cousin and we didn't speak for a year and a half, which,
again I don't know what that qualifies, but it's for me,
it felt like that over politics. Really, yes, And I
look back at it now and I can't believe that
(17:59):
we got to that point and that was a situation
like my sister, but with my cousin where it was brutal.
I missed her every day. You know my sister too.
But my sister and I were arguing over personal issues
and I was so this was so we said things
that were hurtful to each other. And as soon as
(18:24):
I picked up the phone, it was her birthday, and
I was just I couldn't do it anymore. I picked
up the birthday, I picked up the birthday, I picked
up the phone and I called her on her birthday
and immediately it was over within two seconds.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
You know. Yeah, well that's because there was a foundation. Yes,
there's lots, that's true.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
I guess that's the different And we also people get
a strange not just for the reason that they were
never close or that they had a fight. It's because
relationships are toxic or you know, somebody's abusive, right, And
it doesn't mean the other person is toxic, it's just
that relationship that's toxic.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
Now, let me just preface all of this by saying that, like,
I don't want to take my part out of it.
I do feel like I've tried over the years, but
when we have fought, I've also played my part. So
that's one thing I'm not going to absolve myself. I
so like I have gotten when we have fought, I
have gotten nasty myself.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
She listens to the podcast, which sounds she probably doesn't.
I'm a real fucking softy. So if she does, and
if she called me, I promise you like our fight
would end, it will never happen. It will never happen.
I've been It's been forty years of like efforts and
like nothing. I don't even know that I wanted anymore.
But is she called, she will But if she did,
(19:34):
if she did, yeah, but she's not going to I
guess never going to happen. I just I think it's
interesting and I do you know, it's so funny in
the past few years. I know, I talk about recovery
a lot, but like my mindset on a lot of
things has changed. I know a lot of people we're
not going to talk about the show. A lot of
people think that I have very like different reasons for
my relationships shifting. It's really that I'm in a place
(19:56):
where I know what feels good to me and what doesn't,
and I don't care what anyone else thinks. I'm going
to do what authentically feels good for me. If you
want to.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
Assign different reasons to it, that's fine. That's what these
shows are for, so that people can have an opinion
and talk about it. Right But I know that I
am doing things that feel authentically good to me, and
right now, I'm not interested in trying anymore, which is
very hard because, like I said, society tells you family
(20:28):
over everything. It's different also your relationships on the show,
they're friendships, and there's a big difference. It feels very
different from me when I've been a strange from friends,
and I am a strange from friends, not many of them,
but a couple in terms of my life, as opposed
to being a strange from family and the estrangements I've
(20:48):
had from family. It's they've played on me, right, They're
like always with me. It's like even when everything feels great,
there's a loss. When everything feels there's a loss.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
And I don't know if that is about blood, and
I don't think that everyone feels that way. I think
there's there are abusive family relationships that people are not
only smart to get rid of, but also feel probably
simply relief, but the relationships that I've had in terms
of friendships that are now estranged, they don't play on me,
(21:24):
you know. There of course, there might be moments of
sadness or moments of anger, or moments of you know,
sentimentality looking back. But the family, the family ones, they
were just with me. I felt it all the time,
different from you and your sister.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
Right because because I said, like the foundation that was there.
But then I look at the other relationships in my life,
in my family, it's the only one. So like say,
like on our show, there's many many estrangements, and like
if you are estranged from everyone in your family and
everyone in your spouse's family, then maybe it's you with me.
(21:58):
I couldn't be closer to my mother like we are.
We love each other so much. I couldn't be closer
to my father. I adore him. They have their faults,
so do I.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
But why don't the anybody thinks that it looks at
an estrange when it thinks it's your fault. There's it
takes two to tango, Like I don't, yeah, I don't.
I don't, you know. I wouldn't think to myself, well,
there's something wrong with Jackie you know clearly there's something wrong, you.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
Know, you really do because of this message that society
tells you. So but what would you so, What's what's
your take on the never give up messaging? You know, like,
at a certain point do you give up?
Speaker 2 (22:34):
Well, so, when my sister and I didn't speak, my
mother certainly did not give up. So it sounds like
your parents have resolved the recently.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Yes, For many, many years, they would tell me Jackie,
just apologized to her and let it be over. And
I'd say, first of all, I don't even know what
I'm apologizing for. But second of all, it won't be
over because tomorrow there'll be something new that I have
to apologize for. So I don't. I don't know what
you are, what you expect to happen, you know, I don't,
(23:07):
But I feel bad. I feel sad for them.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
Well, I don't. I don't think that every family estrangement
should be resolved. I don't think that just because it's
blood you should absolutely fix it.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
I don't.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
I don't think that life is short and if it
is taking away from the quality of your life and
you know, causing heartbreak, then better off estranged, Right, I
would if my kids, let's say were estranged. They ever
are a strange It would absolutely break my heart. And
I don't see a scenario where I wouldn't keep trying
(23:40):
to fix it.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
I guess that's that's the thing I can't imagine. So
my four children are well, they're very close in age.
I had four kids under the age of three. I
fear in diapers in my house. That's that's another episode. Wow.
But they're all very close now granted they're all teenagers now,
they all have their own lives, but they love each
(24:02):
other so much. And I can't imagine how hard it
must be to watch your children completely split off from
each other. But at the same time, my sister has
a beautiful life. She has four healthy, smart children. She's
married to the same person since nineteen ninety eight. Like,
she's she's fine, you know, she's I don't know if
(24:25):
she's happy. I have nothing to do with her, but
she seems fine. Yeah, I don't feel sad for her. Yeah,
feels sad for her parents.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
There was a time this is like his were never estranged.
They're very very close. But I remember they were young
and Rachel said something nasty to my son and actually
it's funny because he took this bottle of saracha sauce
and he pounded. He was so frustrated because growing up,
(24:52):
Rachel was just a terror and my son Zach was
just always sweet and easy. But we were all just
like we'd say, we'd like tiptoe around Rachel. She grew
up and she's way different now and we laugh about it.
But so she was just or she was just would
just torment him. And he took this bottle of sarracha
and he slammed it on the kitchen table and I
(25:14):
got all over the ceiling and he ran outside. He
was so upset, and I of course ran after him
and he was crying. He's like, Mom, I'm not crying
because I care for me. I care for you because
I'm just letting you know right now that when I
grow up, I'm never speaking to her again. And I
feel better. I feel that he's so cute. So he
(25:38):
was always like so like sort of sensitive like that.
And we left the sarracha on for years on the ceiling,
Yes we did, and.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Not in this house. Yes, in this house we had it.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
I mean in the kitchen painted I don't know, like
three years ago maybe we've been here for thirteen I
don't know, but I don't know what we were trying.
Why we left it was from what it symbolized exactly,
but we almost just laughed about it.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
You would look at it. Yeah, in my old thought,
this is totally off topic. But in my old house.
We moved to one house in ten a flight before
we moved to our new house, but we had a
really like a double length ceiling whatever you call it
when you walk in, and we took our kids when
they were like a year old to see Sesame Street
live and they brought home an Elma balloon and it
(26:23):
floated up to the.
Speaker 3 (26:23):
Top and we left it there for years because what
we were going to do right, But every time we'd
look at.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
It, we just laughed. We've been there for so long,
and like no one even noticed it.
Speaker 3 (26:32):
But when people did, they'd be like, you know, you
have an elbow out there because it's a beautiful house.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
And then like a big floating at holmohad pies of
heliing some good alia it did. It just stayed.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
Yeah, but we left it up there and laughed about it,
and you know, I knew it was coming from a
child's perspective obviously, but picturing it now, I just it
would break my heart. And I think there's just also
something about, Okay, now we're going to get a little deep,
but mortality, right, And I think for parents thinking about yea,
(27:07):
their mortality, like if I can't, it'd be hard for
me to picture a world that I'm not in and
that where my kids weren't bonded.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
Ye know. I mean my sister has a nice relationship
with my parents too. They've just stopped trying to bring
us together because I think they realized it was feudial.
But here's where the mortality piece comes in. For me,
it's not my own mortality, it's that I don't want
that reconnect. If we ever are going to reconnect, I
don't want it to be at one of our parents' deathbeds.
(27:37):
God forbid. I don't want that to be the moment
because if we are going to come back together with
my parents to experience it right, Because.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
Okay, so again I'm not I'm not a shrink, and
I don't I don't know really the intricate details of
you and your sister, but thinking feeling that way like
you would make them so happy, just for that reason.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
Is there a part of you that we're going to
end in podcast. You're going to pick up the phone.
I'm not going to pick up so many times. And
I will tell you honestly, there's no interest on her
part the way that I am. Jen. I am so
open to always reconciling unless you've done something to me
that is so unbelievably painful that I can't move past it. Then,
(28:28):
like you've you've I can't even explain unless you've done
something to me that's so unbelievably hurtful, I can really
move past things. I'm good at that I'm good at,
not just sweeping it under the rug.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
And it doesn't sound like though with you and your sister,
it's been anything specifically one like one thing that was
so painful. It's more just a lifetime of.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
Miss there's nothing there. It's like telling me, like, if
you want to reconcile with my neighbor Sue, and I
don't know your neighbor Sue. You know, that's what it
feels like to me. I don't know her, which is
weird because we share the same parents. I don't know her,
So would I reconcile with her? Yeah? I would, but
it's not because I love her and miss her. Yeah,
(29:07):
you know that's the difference. I don't love and miss
her because I don't know her. It's more so that
this piece of me that feels like there is I
have a sister in the world and I don't know her.
That feels that's always going to feel strange to me.
Whether or not. It's not really about like losing a
loved one, like not losing a loved one, but like
(29:27):
losing a relationship, a loving relationship. That's not it. It's
that I'm very uncomfortable with the idea of having a
sister and having no relationship with her, even if I
never did.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
What about family members relationships that are toxic and but
you make the decision to keep that relationship or keep
the person in your life. And you always hear about
the difficulty right of like things giving or you know, family,
big family get togethers, and what's healthy there. We probably
should have had a we can doctor on and we
(30:09):
can what.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
I think is healthy there, maybe not estrangement, but space.
You know, you come together at certain holidays, but like
even take the holidays. Let's say you say that Thanksgiving
is no fun when Uncle John comes, like it's torture
and he criticizes. You know, I've had people in my
past who would come and you know, point out the
(30:33):
flaws in my weight over the years, and I was
so uncomfortable with them. But you can't can't cut off family.
My parents never cut people out, you know, even if
they were disasters, you know, because and.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
They probably they probably does kill them. I mean, do
they talk to you about you and your sister? They
just completely you said they gave up.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
Oh yeah, they gave up. They gave up a few
years ago. They realized both of us have full lives
without each other in it, and they have They've gotten
used to it. Listen, there are worse things than not
having your all your kids in the same room at
the same time. Yeah, yeah, of course it sucks, but
they also have very full lives. They see her. This
(31:12):
is why so we for many years, Evan and I
would we would alternate holidays because my parents would go
to her one year and they would come to me
one year. So in the off years we go to
his parents, you know, so because he's also got siblings,
a sister, and she lives in the city, so like
it wasn't always like everyone could be at one place.
(31:34):
In recent years, everythingsgiving has been at my house because
our parents are all older now, no one wants to
cook and host and everything, right, So I'm happy to
have it at my home. But you know, for we're
never together for holidays, So yeah, it's so I'm just
thinking about you know, we talked about doing this today's episode,
(31:55):
and talk were really started out just talking about family
and family dynamic and not just estrangement, but the difficulty
sometimes of having family members that you don't relationships that
you don't drive any joy from, right, and had to
kind of handle that and still the wanting to maintain
(32:17):
some kind of relationship. I can't say that. I well,
you know, my relationship relationships with my parents have changed
so much over the years, right, And I come from
family that's been divorced. My father it was divorced three times.
(32:40):
My mom's my mom, they divorced when we were really
really young, and then my mom remarried and her husband
died and there was another one. So it's been a
lot of divorce. And my relationship with my parents today
is so different than it was. There are times times
(33:01):
where I didn't speak to my father, and like, you know,
I do say to him now because we're in a
much better place. As I've gotten older, it's gotten, you know,
way better. But he made a lot of mistakes. I
was a kid, so I'm not going to take too
much responsibility for that. And he would say to me,
(33:23):
you know, I didn't have any I didn't have any
frame of reference. My father was a horrible father.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
And so you know, as we as I got older,
there were times where I would just cut him out right,
or maybe he would cut me out. But now I'm
fifty five years old and my father's eighty two years old,
and there have been lots of there's been lots of reflection,
there's been lots of apology, and I'd rather have him
(33:53):
in my life than not. Yes, And you know, I
say too, I talked about this in there a lot
that I don't want regret and I don't want my
father to one day, a million years from now pass
away and feel like there was more I would have
(34:14):
wanted to say, or I would have wanted to have
more a more loving relationship with him, And we've been
through it. Let me assure you that in terms of
my childhood I've been through it again. That's for another episode.
But as I've gotten older, I prefer to have, you know,
(34:37):
my father in my life, and I do love him,
and I know that he loves me, and he has
reflected on his life and is very open to seeing
the reality of what it was. When we were younger,
my mom had it really really difficult. She you know,
(34:57):
she was a single mom for while before she got remarried.
She had very difficult marriages. We had very difficult stepfathers,
and for that matter, we had a stepmother. It wasn't
great there.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
Anyway. Wow, I think, are you in touch with any
of your stepfathers? No? No, on one? Now? Oh your
mom is married now? Yeah, okay, yeah, and he is
the best. Oh, I love that. See. But also your
father is trying, like he realizes mistakes that he made
when he was younger, and he's trying. And that's that's
a big piece of it.
Speaker 2 (35:30):
My mom, you know, in our relationship there was we
really had like a come to Jesus and I didn't
want to pretend anymore like my childhood was okay, And
it was really hard at the beginning of that conversation
and the conversation lasted probably a couple of years. But
you know, my mom is who dealt with so much,
(35:52):
and I look at our lives together and think about
what she had to overcome and how difficult it was
for her. But now you know, we got through it,
and she she really, you know, said she's made her
amends to me, as I will have to make to
my children because I know that I have. I like
(36:14):
to think of myself as the perfect mother, but I guess.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
What I wasn't. Really, what do you think you did?
I know I wasn't and I know that you weren't,
and I know what I did that I think is
like horrific is the things that I showed my children,
The way that you treat yourself and the way that
you starve yourself. I can't undo these things that I've shown,
and I know it sounds very vague right now, but
(36:36):
the habits that I displayed in front of my children
are horrific. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
Well, again, I am uber aware that not there's not
a parent out there that's perfect, no matter what you
see on social media, and my mom was imperfect. Now
our relationship is such that I cry every time I
leave her. She's only lose a long island, but I
just want to be with her all the time. There
(37:03):
is nothing more comforting to me than just holding our hand.
I'm going to get choked up. And there have been
times where our relationship was not good, but yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
Mine too, but like great now, And I think a
big piece of that is understanding. You know, when I
was younger, I would make rash decisions and I would
assume people's intentions and a lot of that, A lot
of therapy has helped me to really see things from
other people's perspective. So, for example, and this will sound shocking,
(37:36):
but my mother still hasn't read my book. She read
the first few chapters and then stopped. This was too
painful for her. Well, I kept saying to her at
the beginning of the you know, when I first came out,
I was like, you know, insulting it is to me
that you haven't read it, and she'd be like, I'm
going to read it. I'm going to read it. And
then I think, after like six months, I said to her,
I can't believe you still haven't read it, and she said, Jackie,
(37:57):
it's hard for me. It's hard for me to like
read this stuff that you did for yourself, And I said,
you know what, enough said, don't do anything that you
don't want to do. Like I understand, I understand, and
like I just because I can see things now, I'm
mature enough to see things from other people's perspectives, I understand.
(38:18):
Is it insulting now, No, because I get it, Like
I don't know that I could read a story about
my daughter like almost killing yourself, you know, So I
just you know, there is this like piece of me
that will always feel there is and it's not my sister.
It's the idea of my sister, an emptiness because of
(38:41):
what it could have been, and it isn't. But like
I said, I just don't want it to like re.
I don't want it to like for our relationship to
start on a parent's stepbed. I hope that's not the case.
I either wanted to never happen or I want it
to happen so that my parents can see it and
enjoy it for fear, But you know, I don't. It
(39:02):
doesn't play into my everyday life. It plays in on
these stupid like holidays. And I have unfortunate I have
very close college girlfriends. One in particular, her name is Ali,
and she is like she is the closest thing I
have to a sister, but it's not a sister. It's
not you know, it doesn't replace a sister. And I
have very close friends and tenify I just like nothing
(39:26):
replaces that relationship.
Speaker 2 (39:27):
You know that well, you know for me because my
sister and I had it. We didn't have an easy childhood,
but there's this one experience that we had that we
always for and this was by far not the even
remotely the hardest thing that we went through. But we
would leave, we would go to visit my father and
(39:48):
get on the plane. So my mom we moved to
Texas when I was nine years old, So we'd get
on the plane to go back to Texas and we
would both be crying, and I would just hold my
sister on the plane and like she was, you know,
she's only fourteen months younger than I am, on your
way to Texas or because because a lot of reasons,
(40:10):
but we you know, he was as much as he
was not. It wasn't great, but it was still our
father and it was still we had a lot going on,
and so but I would just hold her like she
was my little girl, and we talk about it, not
a lot, but we talk about it to this day
as no one can understand that but us, do you
(40:30):
know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (40:31):
Like that's.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
No one will understand all of it, like Robin does,
like my sister doesn't. And not just the bad, right,
but the good. No one, That relationship is not replaceable, right.
Speaker 1 (40:45):
And that's why I say like there is something to
the friends who are family. I strongly feel that with
some of my friends, like I could tell them anything,
I could be anywhere with them, right, But I don't.
I don't think anything actually replaces family. But it's okay.
I mean not everything in life is going to be perfect,
and that's all right. And this is one relationship I
don't get to have well, and I'm okay with it.
(41:07):
And I think that a lot of times it's better
to be estranged. You know, they didn't. And for anyone
out there who has a toxic family member in your
life that you are strange. From my take, it is
okay me to protect your peace and forget what everyone
says about how you never give up on family and
you always have to keep trying if that is toxic
(41:28):
for you, and you feel that authentically in your heart,
let it go.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
Every Listen. I think every case is different, right, and
I think there are certainly, certainly many many cases where
I would advise someone I love if something was toxic
or if a family member was hurting them obviously to
rid them right or get rid of that relationship. So
it's more difficult, I think sometimes with family, but sometimes
(41:53):
it is necessary. And we are not experts, so you know,
I don't really have I can just we can only
share our own experience, strength, hope and you know what
we've been through. But I would never feel I would
never look down on somebody that is strange, like I
don't in.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
Your sister, Yeah, judge that. And like I said, she's
not bad to other people. We just she's just it's
not that she's even bad to me, Like he's also
that you don't miss her.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
It's not ye, I don't want when it's the idea right,
when I'm not strange from family members, I it was
it was just it was on me. It was this
cloud that followed me. It wasn't easy, and it wasn't
it didn't feel like I was complete.
Speaker 1 (42:34):
Yeah, can I tell you something that I do struggle
with them? I struggle with whether or not my kids
should refer to her as their aunt, because I know
that sounds harsh, but I don't want them to feel
like they have an aunt in their lives that they
don't know. I don't want them to feel like they're
missing something. So I have them call her by her
first name, if and when they ever refer to her,
(42:56):
because my parents sometimes refer to her, and they're close
with their cousins, so I refer to her, and so
I have them not call her aunt, but my mother
refers to her as aunt. So it's very strange because
I don't want my kids to feel like they're missing something,
and they don't, but I don't want it to be
(43:17):
awkward for them to feel like they haven't it. This
is just me getting you know, psychobabble whatever. But do
you think that's in part because it would be just
painful for you to hear that. No. I think it's
because I don't want my children to feel like they're
missing a relationship in their life. I don't want them
to feel like it's on them. You don't want them
(43:38):
to feel like they're missing a relationship too. I would think,
what do you mean? I mean that, like hearing them
say aunt would also bring themselves.
Speaker 3 (43:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:46):
I mean, it's also like I don't want them to
feel like it's on them to fix you know, if
she's just the first name, then she's just a person.
But if she's an aunt, there's something about that blood
tie that makes you feel like you should be doing
something more. Have you ever done any of these twenty
(44:11):
three and me ancestry dot com. No.
Speaker 2 (44:15):
My friend Iris bought me one once, and I don't
know why I never sent it in. I think because
it was like a big brother's looking or something, you
know what I mean, Like they say, don't do What
is the other one that you can do with twenty
three and me? Is that twenty three of me where
you can tell, like all the details of your past
and where you're from.
Speaker 1 (44:34):
And I think so. But anyway, I know I've avoided them. Okay,
I've avoided them because I don't think I want to know.
I think that I'm I think you can only bring
you know. I've read the pros and cons of discovering
new family members, and I'm not so sure that I
want to Why I think I am. I've experienced a
(44:55):
lot with the sister thing, right, It's something that had
been on my mind for a very long time. And
I think I'm so content with the other relationships in
my family right now that I don't I don't want
to introduce something that could potentially muddy the water. Interesting. Yeah,
that definitely wasn't why I didn't didn't send that kid. Oh, so,
(45:19):
like if I discovered that I have a half sibling, Like,
do I want to know how that happened? Because my
parents have been married for a very long time. I go,
I almost don't want to know. That's interesting. You know.
Does it tell you if you have a half sibling?
I don't know, I think so.
Speaker 2 (45:31):
Or does it just tell you? I thought I just
told your history. I think of an ancestry.
Speaker 1 (45:35):
I think I've had friends who told me they discovered
a first cousin. Oh my gosh. Yeah, you know for
me that you say it wrong. Let me know if
I'm wrong.
Speaker 2 (45:43):
You know, I even now as I'm getting older. And
this might sound a little disingenuous, because I did get
on a show called, I don't know if you've heard
of it, The Real Housewives. I'm not trasy, and it's
about it has been about making new friends and new
relationships and all of that, and and maybe not so much.
But anyway, I'm not.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
I don't.
Speaker 2 (46:03):
I'm not as open to new even new friendships as
I used to be, and I don't really I'm not
really looking for that many new relationships. And certainly if
it's a new family member, I probably I would never
reject anyone, but I'm out looking for that. I don't
know that I want more ties.
Speaker 1 (46:28):
Is that I think that's what it is with me too.
I don't. I don't want more blood relationships that might
not pan out in a good way. Yeah, I don't really.
So if you're listening and you think we maybe related,
lose my number. How you have it? But you know,
I do. I do look at my children and I think,
you know, and then I think to myself, you know,
(46:49):
for a long time, I actually blamed my parents. I was.
I was more of a hothead in my like thirties,
and I used to say to them, God, if it
was me, I would have put me and my sister
together in a room and fucking tied her hands together
and said, you're not leaving this room until you guys
find a way to love each other. And I just
(47:10):
I think it was a different relationship in a different
childhood at a different time than it is with my kids.
Because that's what I would do with my kids now,
if they were ever at the point of not speaking
to each other for a significant period of time, I
would put them in a room together and be like,
you are going to figure this out. There is no
way this is happening in our family. But my family
was different. My family was different. Growing up. My parents
(47:32):
worked full time at a disabled brother. Like I said,
they had a lot of issues. We had my grandparents
living with us. My grandfather had dementia, my grandmother had
pancreatic cancer. Like it was a lot going on, and
no one had time for the shit fights between me
and my sister. What about this scenario. What about when
(47:56):
let's say our kids one day, if they decide to
get married and something happens with your daughter in law
or your son in law and you or you know,
I think about there's you always hear about that. That's
such a statistic.
Speaker 2 (48:10):
It's such a difficult relationship, that in law relationship. I
was very lucky. I got a mother in law and
a father in law who unfortunately aren't here anymore, but
who were just wonderful in every single way. But you
hear all the time about that relationship and how difficult
it is, and then you see relationships and brothers and
sisters and mothers and sons and daughters and being torn apart, right, Yeah,
(48:33):
and that must be.
Speaker 1 (48:35):
Just a bit. That must be I like you, I'm
so fortunate. I love my mother and father in law
so much. They're really I mean, my mother in law
is amazing, my father in law is like the warmest
person that you can imagine, and my parents are very
good to my husband. So I don't have to deal
with it in my life. And I would hope that
(48:56):
you know, despite what you see it you see things
on the show, I really am very open to always
trying to work things out with people. No relationship or
friendship has ever closed off to me unless you really
do something horrific. So I'm hoping that having that mindset
keeps that from ever happening. Now, if my son marries
an asshole, or even with that, let's say, let's.
Speaker 2 (49:18):
Say that your son marries an asshole, and so you
stop speaking to each other, and for whatever reason, his
wife hates your guts or you hate whatever it is,
do you as the mother, Do you ever give up?
Do you always keep trying to?
Speaker 1 (49:35):
Do? You know your children?
Speaker 2 (49:37):
I can't, I can't, I know, but it happens. It
happens as a very complicated difference. So or imagine that,
you know, like one of us, I didn't like or
my father in law and it was so bad that
I didn't want anything to do with him or didn't
want him to have anything to do with my children.
And my husband is put in that position of having
(49:59):
to use right in a way. That's a tough line.
I don't I don't know what I'm marry. Lucky me
to have avoided that, but yeah, and I think as
a I don't know because I don't have grandchildren, and
you know, I don't know what the future holds. I
would think that no matter what, my kids ain't getting
away from me, like no matter what.
Speaker 1 (50:19):
No matter I think. And this is going to sound
a little but that might be naive, veryo typical, but
I think your son, you obviously have to let them
love their wife more and that man, I.
Speaker 2 (50:31):
Don't know how I'm going to be differently, you know,
I don't know how that's going to feel, but I
I hope that I wouldn't need if it meant that
I had to bend, and you know, I had, and
I think as you get older that's harder and harder,
but change some things and just boundaries. I would hope
that I would do anything and everything right. Like being
(50:54):
a strange from your kid has got to just be
a bitch.
Speaker 1 (50:57):
Yeah, I don't even want to think about that. But
I also don't want to be up my kids' assholes,
like when they're when they have their own families. I
don't want to live with them and raise their children.
I want to obviously be so super close, but I
want to spend my fourth quarter traveling. I missed out
on a lot because of my illness, and I want
(51:19):
to spend my fourth quarter traveling and having you know,
I just you know, doing living my life.
Speaker 2 (51:28):
That's another We've done an episode about this, but I
think that that's so huge. Like my mom to this day,
she runs and I'm not even exaggerating, it's like sounds ridiculous,
but she runs five miles or she swims one hundred
and fifty laps. Then she goes and she plays maaj on.
She was taking current affairs classes and not just that
(51:48):
she is. She was never she was always busy, Like,
she wasn't just doting all the time.
Speaker 1 (51:54):
She had a life.
Speaker 2 (51:54):
And she used to say to me when I would
get pissed because she didn't do something for me, for
I got a life.
Speaker 1 (52:01):
I was also a very present grandmother. Oh my god,
my kids were. See my mother is like right, like
raised my sister's kids with her. I like the most,
like she would live at my house with me. But
I'm not that person. I adore my mother. We've had
our tough times, but I adore my mother, and my
kids love her so much. They love both my parents
(52:23):
so much. But I won't be the grandparent who's always now.
Speaker 2 (52:29):
My mother was not like. She wasn't my go to babysitter.
First of all, she lived on Long Island and there's
a lot of Jeff Fesster. I lived in New Jersey.
I just kidding, just kidding, love New Jersey. But anyway,
so she couldn't right. But she was also busy, you know,
and to this day is busy. And I think as
a result of that, happier. I think maybe I'm wrong,
(52:53):
Maybe those maybe there are those relationships, and maybe as
I get older, I'll be happier, you know, living for
my grandkids. But I kind of think I'm going to
take my mom's lead.
Speaker 1 (53:03):
Yeah, you're going to be traveling the world with me. Yes,
we have lots of places to go.
Speaker 2 (53:08):
That is also I mean, that's that's the hope, right,
that's the fourth quarter hope, and not just that I'm
just traveling the world.
Speaker 1 (53:14):
But just you know, by the way, we're not on
the fourth quarter. We're not. I was about to say
that's the fourth quarter. No, I think fourth quarter. People
are living longer now, so I think, like, if you
live till what eighty five ninety, fourth quarter is not
until like late sixties. So let's thank it's just Russia. Yeah,
we're not rushing it. I'm sorry. Maybe I meant the
you know, the back What does Evan say? He refers
(53:34):
to everything in golf terms? Back nine. I won't understand
any of that. Yeah, that's one thing I won't be
doing in my third or fourth course. No, no, no, no,
you want to know just a quick story. When I
was looking for jobs and I was in law school
and my father is a very like different time. You know.
This was in the nineties. I graduated law school in
(53:54):
O one. But I was looking for jobs in like
two thousand and I had very strong grades. I had
a lot of great interviews. Law firms lined up, and
my father took me aside, and you said, I want
you to take a few golf lessons, because when you're
sitting down for an interview, I want you to be
able to talk about golf with the partners. So did
my grandparents.
Speaker 2 (54:14):
They said all the time, you have to either golf
or tennis, neither. But so they would harp on me
about it, and I was like, no, thanks to it.
Speaker 1 (54:25):
Right, not my father, but just like the world that
you have to know about golf to impress a male partner.
Speaker 2 (54:30):
And also right, I think that was probably I was single,
but also they just thought that was the way to
meet people.
Speaker 1 (54:34):
Yeah, okay, without I took a few golf lessons, and
I'm not ashamed to say that I think it's the
most boring sport in the whole world. And I haven't
sell attraction. I do t I do like tennis.
Speaker 2 (54:46):
No, I have no interest, although sometimes I think pickleball
sounds like and not that it sounds appealing to me,
but because so many people love it and because you
don't apparently need a lot of athletic ability.
Speaker 1 (54:58):
Who knows, I don't know anything about pickle well, but
let me wrap by saying this, I think you're very
lucky because I think I've met your mother and I've
met your sister many times, and your sister is wonderful.
And I'm you know, even though it's more the idea
of my of us sister, I'm there's a piece of
me that is jealous and that does get sad on
(55:18):
like sister holidays. And I don't even know what I
would say to my sister if she's listening. You know,
I'm always I'm not going to reach out and try, really,
but I'm always open to coming back, not even coming
back together because we never were together. But I know
you're not sad about it. But even I'm getting choked
up just yeah, I mean, because it does. It does
feel like avoid avoid of the idea of it, but
(55:41):
not avoid of the actual person. But I don't know.
I'm sometimes curious if there would be something there because
we are blood. But you know, it's not like something's
missing in my life. It's the idea of it that's missing.
But that being said, you know they're they're very nuanced.
The family estrangements very nuanced. It's never an easy like
(56:02):
this is what happened, and this is why. You know,
I'm sure there's always a million sides to the story,
but you know it's hard for anyone going through it,
no matter how long you've been estranged. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (56:11):
So, uh, I guess we sum it up by saying,
what do we know? Because there are times that the
stranger is a good thing, yeah, for sure, right yeah,
and many times where it's not.
Speaker 1 (56:23):
I think it's a good thing for me right now,
like my life is more peaceful and not having a
fighting family member in it. And uh, but you know,
let's say, like my therapist always says, let life unfold, Jackie,
stop worry so much about things you can't control. Let
it unfold. You let me know. When you learn to
do that, you can help me to do that.
Speaker 2 (56:43):
Mine says the same thing. Be present, be present, be present.
I'm like, listen, stop telling me to be present. I'm
already like three years about Yeah.
Speaker 1 (56:51):
And anyway, this was great. I love this felt like
therapy to me. It did it.
Speaker 2 (56:55):
It's like it's nice also that it was kind of
just us delving in. Yeah, I hope you guys, I
don't know. I mean, we're not therapist, so I don't
think we could have helped you in Anybody in the
comments we're sharing at least maybe shared experiences.
Speaker 1 (57:06):
Yeah, for sure, And trust me, I think it'd be
hard pressed to find many people who don't have at
least one very tough, toxic relationship in their family. Agreed.
Speaker 2 (57:15):
Yeah, on that happy note, Love to you all, Love
you guys, I see you next time.
Speaker 1 (57:20):
Bye bye
Hosts And Creators
Jackie Goldschneider
Jennifer Fessler
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