February 14, 2024 • 31 mins
Psychiatrist and activist Dr. Lise Van Susteren joins to discuss her pioneering work in understanding and managing the mental health risks associated with "climate anxiety."
Show notes from Chris:
- The heartbreaking 2021 global survey on ‘Climate anxiety in children and young people and their beliefs about government responses to climate change’ was led by Caroline Hickman at the University of Bath and is freely available from The Lancet by clicking here.
- There is a wealth of amazing online resources that show how to turn anxiety into meaningful action. For inspiration, check out this super readable BBC article on ‘How young people are changing activism’.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
In the beginning when I was talking about the emotional
toll of climate. My gosh, this was back in two
thousand and eight, and I tried to get the American
Psychiatric Association to come to a meeting that I had
in two thousand and nine, and they said they weren't interested.
But fast forward again, and it took a while, but
people now recognize Mother Nature has made the point. So
(00:22):
what was once an abstract issue, and some people, by nature,
are more inclined to focus on fear and danger than others.
And now you know, we kind of went from don't
want to hear about it, sounds scary, Maybe everything will
work out too. In some instance's almost state of panic.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Oh we fucked.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Welcome to I'm fucking the future. Like you, I get
on my phone every morning I see the headlines about
the climate crisis, and I'll be the first to admit,
but it's shockingly easy to feel power lives by the
world around us. If we're going to unfuck this disaster,
we've got to put our heads together and actually solve
(01:07):
this mess. Because together, I truly believe we can get
on the path to a better future. I'm your host,
Chris Turning and this is unfucking the future.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Fucking the future.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
It's not hard to notice the effects of climate change.
For hundreds of millions of people. It's right on their doorstep.
Speaker 4 (01:31):
Triple digit temperatures for days on in smoke from record
setting wildfires, fouling the air, warming oceans.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
Bleaching coral reefs.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
Opinion polls find growing concern about climate change. Psychologists say
that can be a positive thing, spurring people to action.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
That's John Yang, a correspondence for PBS News Hour.
Speaker 4 (01:51):
But for some people it becomes an overwhelming sense of
despair or anxiety. Psychologists call it climate anxiety.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
Last episode, we heard from a young climate activist about
how the environmental crisis was affecting her and her peers,
And today I want to go deeper into that discussion.
Even though most people are just now catching up on
the reality of how the climate is impacting our mental health,
some people have been studying climate anxiety for years, like
(02:23):
doctor Lisa Van Sustin. She's a forensic psychiatrist who's profiled
foreign political leaders and presented expert testament in high level
care cases, but now her work focuses on understanding how
the climate is causing life altering harm to individuals. People
who live for intense disasters caused by global heating are
(02:44):
experiencing post traumatic stress, but the fear of a climate
crisis is also causing people to develop what doctor Lisa
van Sustn calls pre traumatic stress. This, she says, can
cause other social issues ranging from drug and alcohol dependencies
to civil conflict. Let's dig in. There's a couple of
(03:07):
things you need to know about Lisa and Sustrum. First,
she's not your typical psychiatrist. Sure, she went to med
school and specialized in psychiatry, but as a forensic psychiatrist,
she's focused on the impacts of traumatic events, and she's
particularly interested in advocating for people in the court systems.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Forensic psychiatry is the interface between psychiatry and the law.
So anytime something psychological has a legal component, a forensic
psychiatrist would likely be sought to make sure that testimony
is properly prepared or delivered and is in accordance with
(03:52):
the law by someone who's knowledgeable about all these things.
So a sexual harassment case that's going to go to
court and I have to talk about all the psychological
implications and undercurrents and things.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
And the other thing you need to know about it.
Doctor Lisa van Sustran wants to see a world where
every single person is given the justice and the dignity
they deserve. And she's been obvious pretty much since she
was a kid.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
When I was in seventh grade, I fought with the
city council in my hometown of Appleton, Wisconsin about putting
in curb and gutter in what amounted to a very rural,
very bucolic country lane type road that my house sat on.
And my grandfather was a doctor and it was also
(04:42):
a big environmental activist. He was one of the key
people involved in cleaning up the Finger Lakes. But I'm
also Irish and they always say the Irish can't stop
talking and protesting, So there is that. My father was
involved in politics and social justice issue growing up as
a becoming a psychiatrist, seeing how people suffer, you know,
(05:05):
it's not a number for a person who hears all
day long about how people are hurting, So everything becomes
very real. There's a face on every issue. You'd have
to be kind of frozen or at least callous, I think,
not to want to help.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
That experience is part of why she ran for US
Senate a while back.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
I ran for the US Senate in Maryland in two
thousand and five two thousand and six, and as you
can see, I did not become a US Senator, but
I became more wedded to the issues that were of
deeper and deepening concern, which included especially not just the
(05:47):
environment writ large, but specifically climate change. And Al Gore
chose me for one of his first fifty to train
in Tennessee.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
Yeah, the former vice president of it Stays and the
person who won the popular vote for president in two
thousand on a campaign addressing global heating, trained Lisa van Sustran,
and a new generation of climate activists were born.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
The Climate Project in two thousand and six recruited fifty
people to train. And it came about because so I
told this might be apocryphal, but it came about because
Al was on one of the morning shows and said
he was going to train people to talk about an
inconvenient truth and the next thing he knew, of course,
having said that he was going to have to do it.
So Roy Neil, his chief of staff then at the time,
(06:37):
and his wife in particular Jenny Kladd took over the
charge to find fifty people, and I was one of
those fifty, and we were out in Carthage, Tennessee, at
his barn, and he taught us all about climate change
and then encouraged each of us to run with it
with our own voices. And in the aftermath it was
(06:59):
like running downhill.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
Doctor van Susteren noticed that very few people were talking
about the mental health toll, but the environment was having
on young people. She found that disturbing. How could they
not be talking about this.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
The only thing is that I thought that we would
be seeing these changes. We look at the numbers, make
the changes right away, and then everybody would be happy
and everything would be correct. But increasingly I saw it
wasn't just the health issues, but specifically mental health toll,
and especially on kids.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
She observed a post traumatic stress that an increasing number
of people are living through.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
On one side is what people are currently experiencing in
terms of often aver an extreme weather event, the anxiety,
generalized anxiety disorder, major depressions or just depression. We find
post traumatic stress disorder. Of course, we find that people
try to numb themselves with alcohol ors and then we
(08:01):
often see domestic violence and it's not really surprising because
think about it. Imagine if your house is burned down,
lone away, flooded, or otherwise swept off the face of
the earth, and you've lost your possessions, maybe your pets,
family members, your everyday life has been disrupted, you've lost
(08:24):
your job, you can't go to school. Do you think
you'd be a little upset. So it's easy once you
drill down anything you know that's right.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
But there's also a pre traumatic stress.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
The emotional toll is derived from the realization that the
science is telling us that we're going to bust through
various irreversible tipping points, that we're getting close to one
point five degrees which a centigrade, which unleashes those climate
tipping points, and so the anticipation is that things are
(08:59):
going to get worse before they ever get better. Well,
I don't like to say that, but that's what's being said.
And newsflash, people don't like to think that things are
going to get worse. So it's what I've dubbed pre
traumatic stress. So the people who are thinking about the future,
(09:21):
and this is particularly true of young people because they're
going to be suffering the cumulative toll. It's the anticipation
of future damage and the recognition that now is the
time to be taking action and there's a robottleneck and
they know it.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
Yeah, and this is what you're saying, this pre traumatic stress,
but also the frustration. I hear you saying about, well,
why aren't we doing something about base?
Speaker 1 (09:48):
A lot is being done. There are plenty of people
are busting there, you know what, to do everything they can.
The issue is are we doing enough in time?
Speaker 3 (09:58):
Yes, I think, I say readly impoint stress. A lot
is happening. A lot is happening. It's just it is
it going up a speeding the scale that we need.
And that's the urgency. And I think that's a sense
of maybe where the frustration is coming in as well.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
And here's the biggest problem, Chris. It's one thing if
you could always say to yourself, well, you know, this
was fate nature whilst it takes its toll, et cetera.
But what's happening now is that people know that the
intensity and the frequency of these extreme weather events have
(10:35):
the handprints of humans all over. So the issue now
is this is willful neglect. This is the difference between
involuntary manslaughter, so to speak, and voluntary manslaughter where you
know full well that you are endangering others but you're
doing it anyway. It's much harder to get over harm
(10:57):
that we believe is not an accident but was intentionally
or partly intentionally by negligence inflicted. This is really unnerving
because that kind of cynicism, it's different from normalizing. This
is cynicism that government doesn't work for you, entergyroads, our
trust in our institutions as being able to keep us safe,
(11:20):
and the consequences of that. For somebody who studies this
is that when people don't believe in their government, they're
not going to get out there and vote. They are
accepting cynically that this is the way things are, and
that's when you see the erosion of democracy.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
Do you see certain populations being more prone to its mindset?
You know, Is it's something that makes someone more vulnerable
to that.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
Yes, of course kids are likely to be I think
more inclined to show some of their anger, and they
also sometimes feel or more vulnerable. Older people tend to
sweep it under the rug. They're not in their idealistic phase.
They aren't going to change the world. They aren't destined
(12:09):
to see the or to experience the consequences of their
bad decisions. We're on a kind of a trajectory that
we're not going to change now. Woods have that whole
world and falling in front of them. They've got to
make these course changes.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
It's easy to see how young people would be more
vulnerable to mental health issues related to the environment, and
the numbers on this are staggering. In a global survey
of ten thousand gen zas, almost sixty percent said that
they felt very or extremely worried about the climate, and
perhaps to doctor Van Susteren's point here, more than fifty
(12:49):
percent reported feeling sad, anxious, angry, and powerless. For a
lot of people, that panic can cause pre traumatic stress
and anxiety, and those feelings can cause emotional paralysis. I
think we can all understand this feeling like no matter
(13:09):
what we do, we're doomed. But that's a totally unhelpful perspective.
We've got to lean on the people around us who
meet the climate crisis with a sense of agency. But
people who say we can fix this.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
And there are other people who by nature have a
feeling of agency, So even if they aren't you the
center of this, or mister or miss important that they
have the sense that they are agents of change and
that they must pick up the standard and bring others
to bring up pick up the standard with them. These
(13:45):
are the people that are kind of natural organizers, collaborators, motivators,
et cetera.
Speaker 3 (13:51):
There's so many people in the world who, in the
face of adversity, find innovative solutions for the future.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
We're on fucking the future. We're on fucking the future.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
I know from personal experience that my turning point was
when I did psychological profiles in the first case that
I was involved with, which is the Juliana case against
the federal government. Juliana is a case of twenty one
youth plaintiffs and Jim Hansen who have sued the federal
government for insufficient action essentially on climate and I spent
(14:37):
several months one summer writing those psychological profiles. I had
worked previously for the executive branch of the government writing profiles,
so it's a familiar territory to me. But I got
to say, I will never be able to forget what
it was like listening to them and experiencing what they're
going through as they contemplate a future that feels dark,
(15:00):
and so once you hear those stories from a person directly,
you can't forget them.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
And as doctor Van Sustrm prepared to expert witness testimony
for Juliana versus United States, she was also working in
the background on another landmark case held versus Montana. But
what we talked about in the last episode.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
The state of Montana had passed a law that prevented
forbid lawmakers from referring or considering climate change in any
of the permits that they would issue or other related
activities to fossil fuel companies and their impact on the environment.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
Last summer, doctor Van Sustrom joined the team of experts
who testified on behalf of the youth plaintiffs in a
small courtroom in Helena, Montana.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
It's a wooden paneled room. It's kind of small, a
very intimate wooden benches and stuff. So it has this
country style feeling, and so it's always the feeling of
irony that it goes out over very high tech services,
but it's just this little group of people that are
(16:13):
fighting for what they believe in. And so we had
a judge that was an old Montana girl. I say
girl because she was in her I think probably in
her early sixties, but you know, a real a Montana stock.
And so it was kind of like central casting for
the characters that were there. They were all Montanas. And
(16:35):
so the feeling of authenticity and the feeling that we
were doing something fundamental and that it was that it
was right, and it was straightforward and it was fair
was a part of the sizzle of excitement that we felt.
So for me, the job was essentially to find out
what the playbook of the lawyers defending the state was
(16:57):
going to be and to counter that. And also I
brought up that my code of ethics says that part
of being a good doctor requires that I take public
health seriously. So I am, in a sense called charged
with that responsibility. And then all I had to do
(17:19):
was show what the State of Montana was doing to
these kids, specifically using their testimony in the courtroom. And
then of course the expert tease that I have that says, yes,
that would cause a person losing your house to fire,
not being able to go out because there's smoke, not
being able to engage in previously enjoyed activities. That's going
(17:40):
to stress a kit out.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
It's an incredible story, but perhaps most importantly, this case
can teach us a lot about why we have to
combat climate anxiety through action. See the foundation for this
case was set a long time ago, but activists who
were fed up with a current status quo.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
It was nineteen seventy two that a group of enterprising
people said, Hey, we love our state of Montana. We
want to put in the state of Montana constitution that
Montana residents have. All right, and this is the constitution
to a safe and healthful environment.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
Okay, let's pause here, what the fuck are you talking about?
Like doctor Van Sustin mentioned, the amendment in Montana that
allowed for this case to go to trial says for
the state must provide a safe and healthful environment. Back
in the seventies, activists saw the environmental degradation happening across
(18:43):
their beloved state.
Speaker 5 (18:45):
We were from Missoula, where on any given day you
couldn't even see the mountains because of what was coming
out of corner Waldorf.
Speaker 3 (18:54):
That's Mae Non Ellingson, who is the youngest member of
the committee that decided on the wording of the Clean
and Healthful Amendment. This clip is from an interview she
did with Montana Technological University.
Speaker 5 (19:06):
It was the beginning of strip mining and eastern Montana
and then we had clear cutting. So for a great
number of us, it's like we didn't want that exact
environment that we had in Montana. We didn't want the
status quo.
Speaker 3 (19:26):
And those words clean and healthful were critical, not just
because they'd be used in the Hell v. Montana lawsuit
fifty years later, but because they meant something to Maine
Non and other activists. They all loved Montana and preserving
a beauty of estate was so important to them they
(19:47):
had to find a way to protect it.
Speaker 5 (19:49):
They were saying, how can we add these words. We
don't know what they mean. We're going to have all
kinds of lawsuits trying to establish what they mean. But
those were words that were actually in federal legislation. They
were in some of the environmental protection legislation.
Speaker 3 (20:09):
It's people like may Non who over fifty years ago
laid the groundwork for young activists to advocate for a
healthy environment in Montana. What the fuck are you're talking about?
Speaker 1 (20:26):
Because of that, that law, we could show in a
million different ways did not render the residents of Montana's
safe and certainly not helpful when it's in the constitution. Jeez,
there it is an ink. It's really hard to get
it off the parchment. So this is what gives people
that sense we can do this, and this is the
first constitutional court case and it is going to embolden others.
(20:50):
So if you've got to be first, be first. If
you've got to be a follower, be a follower. But
get your friends and everybody else to take action, do
what's right now.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
When we're discussing the climate crisis, it's so important that
we also talk about when things went right because talking
about success and the positive effects of activism can give
people a sense of hope, and that hope can help
combat some of a pre traumatic stress that doctor an
Sustrin has been warning us about.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
So here's what's important to say. But we will find
ourselves sometimes lamenting not enough people are taking action. That's
really not a helpful statement. But what is helpful is
if we have a real knowledgeable sense about how we
need to work together, then we need to say more
and more people. And again this is true every day.
(21:41):
Our taking this seriously. So that's what's the empowering message
that gives people the wish to desire, an impulse to
take action and be agents of change.
Speaker 3 (21:53):
Which is all to say, talk about how you feel
with other people, get activated. It will make you feel
a little better. I know. There is a ton of
great work happening right now.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
We are now providing information to states, to local government,
whether it's the city council or whether it's the Committee
on Education, and especially state legislatures, asking for meetings, talking
(22:29):
to them about the emotional toll on kids and using
words language that is important to them because when you
look at what happens in an emotional toll from anything
is you have increased violence. And legislators, people elected to
office a sense to an uptick in criminal activity, behavior, violence,
(22:54):
et cetera. Higher temperatures lead to violence. Certainly a public
health message is important, and we are going to state legislators,
elected officials and saying here's why you need to care.
And what I'm also bringing up is I'm bringing kids
in that have been involved in climate issues before, so
that I'm not bringing them in just for us, but
(23:15):
they've been involved so they can tell what it's like
first person, not me a professional, but first person, and
that's a way to get people to feel the story.
Storytelling is so powerful when you want to get people
to listen.
Speaker 3 (23:31):
And if you feel like you're experiencing mental health issues
from a climate crisis, doctor Van Sustrn has a few
actionable tips for you. First, recognize your feelings. Most reactions
to the climate crisis are totally normal. Worrying about the
climate isn't a mental health illness. It's just a sign
you're absolutely human.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
It is a response to a very serious threat. It
may rise to the level that it makes you ill,
but it's not an illness in and of itself. If
you need professional help, it's because you're really beginning to
shut down. And I've had relatives and boyfriends and girlfriends
(24:13):
of individuals who've said, you know, my family member or
friend won't leave the house. She's panicked. What can we do?
So And if you're really struggling, look for a climate
to wear a therapist directory. You may be able to
find somebody, or I presume you will be able to
find somebody either nearby or else, somebody that sounds like
(24:34):
it would be a good fit, because you know, maybe
you knew you to just talk to somebody who encourages
like a good coach, So therapists can be like good coaches.
It's a person simply who recognizes that climate is a
threat and that it's not surprising that it causes deep anxiety.
Speaker 3 (24:53):
So take a look at a Climate to Wear therapist
directory and know that you can always reach out to
a doctor for help. And there are other ways to
get support too.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
Type in climate cafes and you can find places where
you can join online others who are talking about their
feelings and there is no judgment of what you're saying.
They're not looking for you to provide remedies. You're there
to listen and to experience what other people are experiencing,
(25:24):
and it's just a very supportive environment. Then there is
also a step a little bit more activist is Citizens
Climate Lobby Joan's Citizens Climate Lobby. There you will find
a like minded individuals who really want to wade into
the political sphere and take action. They write op eds,
(25:45):
they share information, lots of good stuff, So Citizens Climate Lobby.
Speaker 3 (25:53):
And finally remember, but what you feel and do matters.
Each of us hold a great deal of power, and
we have to remember that I read not.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
Long ago and this was a good thing for me
to remember is when you feel powerless about something, try
to think of what power you're giving up?
Speaker 3 (26:13):
Hm, Yes, are you really going to give that up? Yeah,
you're really going.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
To give out a good way to confront yourself about
what you might be leaving on the table that you
ought not to.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
Lisa, I really like that. I really I've not heard
that at all. Actually that's about Wow. That's really powerful. Actually,
that's really powerful. Yeah, what power you giving up? Gosh, Lisa. Honestly,
thank you so much of your time. It's been absolutely
brilliant talking to you and completely inspired.
Speaker 6 (26:41):
Now.
Speaker 3 (26:41):
Honestly, it's genuinely, it really is. It's just been a
very wide ranging discussion, but we've just covered so many
important issues. Absolutely, thank you, Thank you. You've been absolutely
wonderful to talk to you. Thank you so much. Honestly,
it really has been brilliant.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
Weird fucking the future. We're a fucking the future.
Speaker 3 (27:06):
It wouldn't be an episode of I'm Fucking the Future
if I didn't bring in the brilliant Maggie Bed for
some good advice too. What fuck can I do? Every
episode we highlight one action you can take to get involved,
and as always we're talking to our friend Maggie bed
for help. Thanks for coming back on the show, Maggie.
Speaker 7 (27:26):
Oh, thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (27:28):
So. Lisa had a lot to say about the negative
impact of climate crisis is having on our mental health.
What's something our listeners can do to protect their mental
health and the health of the people they care about.
Speaker 7 (27:39):
The first thing I want to recommend is a book.
It's a book called It's Not Just You by Tory Sue.
She's an amazing activist and this book will help you
feel that you're not alone. And then the second thing
you can do is find a support group, and for
that I want to recommend A great website was put
(28:00):
together by the rapper Megan the Stallion and it is
called bad Bitches Have Bad Days Too dot com.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
Oh yes, I presume that's a reference to a song anxiety,
So it's probably my favorite maketrack off to Beautiful Mistakes.
Speaker 7 (28:15):
Wow, Chris, you really know the Megan thee Stallion Cadillac.
I am very impressed. Yes, anxiety is about mental health
and Megan and her team have put together this amazing
companion website that is full of incredible resources to help
you find support for what you're going through, whomever and
wherever you are. For example, the site has links to
(28:39):
therapy platforms like the Center for Interactive Mental Health Solutions
and the directory of resources specifically tailored to at risk
and historically marginalized communities. So whoever you are, you'll be
able to find useful mental health support at Bad Bitches
Have Bad Days too dot com.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
And of course, as always.
Speaker 7 (29:01):
You can talk to your doctor, your guidance counselor faith
leader or whoever your trusted figure is about what you're feeling.
The first step to managing these feelings is understanding that
you're not alone.
Speaker 3 (29:15):
Oh thanks, Maggie, And that's what the fuck you can
do this week? What fuck can I do?
Speaker 1 (29:24):
Oh?
Speaker 5 (29:26):
Fucked?
Speaker 3 (29:31):
That's it for now. Next time, on the fucking the Future,
we're talking to one of the greats, an absolute giant
in the fight against climate change, Bill mckibbon.
Speaker 6 (29:41):
You know there's some people who can't reach there, just
spend too much time listening to you know, Donald Trump
or Rush Limbaugh or something. With older people, there's definitely
the idea that, and it turns out to be correct,
that your grand grandkids will h will think you're cool,
get the rested, fucking share whoever, whatever you're doing. But
(30:04):
I think it's just a sense of responsibility. I mean, look,
climate change is basically at test at this point of
whether the Big Brain was a good adaptation or not.
Speaker 3 (30:14):
Thanks for joining me and I'm Fucking the Future. See
you next time.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
We're Fucking the Future.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
I'm Fucking the Future is produced by Imagine Audio and
Awfully Nice for iHeart Podcasts and hosted by me Chris Turney.
The show is written by Meredith Bryan. I'm Fucking the
Future is produced by Amber von Schassen and Rene Colvert.
Ron Howard, Brian Grazer, Carl Welker and Nathan Chloke are
the executive producers from Imagine Audio. Jesse Burton and Katie
(30:50):
Hodges are the executive producers from Awfully Nice. Sound design
and mixing by Evan Arnette, original music by Lillly Hayden
and producing services by Peter mcgriggan. Sam Swinnerton wrote our
theme and all those fun jingles. If you enjoyed this episode,
be sure to rate and review Unfucking the Future on
Apple Podcasts or whether you get your podcasts
In the beginning when I was talking about the emotional
toll of climate. My gosh, this was back in two
thousand and eight, and I tried to get the American
Psychiatric Association to come to a meeting that I had
in two thousand and nine, and they said they weren't interested.
But fast forward again, and it took a while, but
people now recognize Mother Nature has made the point. So
(00:22):
what was once an abstract issue, and some people, by nature,
are more inclined to focus on fear and danger than others.
And now you know, we kind of went from don't
want to hear about it, sounds scary, Maybe everything will
work out too. In some instance's almost state of panic.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Oh we fucked.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Welcome to I'm fucking the future. Like you, I get
on my phone every morning I see the headlines about
the climate crisis, and I'll be the first to admit,
but it's shockingly easy to feel power lives by the
world around us. If we're going to unfuck this disaster,
we've got to put our heads together and actually solve
(01:07):
this mess. Because together, I truly believe we can get
on the path to a better future. I'm your host,
Chris Turning and this is unfucking the future.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Fucking the future.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
It's not hard to notice the effects of climate change.
For hundreds of millions of people. It's right on their doorstep.
Speaker 4 (01:31):
Triple digit temperatures for days on in smoke from record
setting wildfires, fouling the air, warming oceans.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
Bleaching coral reefs.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
Opinion polls find growing concern about climate change. Psychologists say
that can be a positive thing, spurring people to action.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
That's John Yang, a correspondence for PBS News Hour.
Speaker 4 (01:51):
But for some people it becomes an overwhelming sense of
despair or anxiety. Psychologists call it climate anxiety.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
Last episode, we heard from a young climate activist about
how the environmental crisis was affecting her and her peers,
And today I want to go deeper into that discussion.
Even though most people are just now catching up on
the reality of how the climate is impacting our mental health,
some people have been studying climate anxiety for years, like
(02:23):
doctor Lisa Van Sustin. She's a forensic psychiatrist who's profiled
foreign political leaders and presented expert testament in high level
care cases, but now her work focuses on understanding how
the climate is causing life altering harm to individuals. People
who live for intense disasters caused by global heating are
(02:44):
experiencing post traumatic stress, but the fear of a climate
crisis is also causing people to develop what doctor Lisa
van Sustn calls pre traumatic stress. This, she says, can
cause other social issues ranging from drug and alcohol dependencies
to civil conflict. Let's dig in. There's a couple of
(03:07):
things you need to know about Lisa and Sustrum. First,
she's not your typical psychiatrist. Sure, she went to med
school and specialized in psychiatry, but as a forensic psychiatrist,
she's focused on the impacts of traumatic events, and she's
particularly interested in advocating for people in the court systems.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Forensic psychiatry is the interface between psychiatry and the law.
So anytime something psychological has a legal component, a forensic
psychiatrist would likely be sought to make sure that testimony
is properly prepared or delivered and is in accordance with
(03:52):
the law by someone who's knowledgeable about all these things.
So a sexual harassment case that's going to go to
court and I have to talk about all the psychological
implications and undercurrents and things.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
And the other thing you need to know about it.
Doctor Lisa van Sustran wants to see a world where
every single person is given the justice and the dignity
they deserve. And she's been obvious pretty much since she
was a kid.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
When I was in seventh grade, I fought with the
city council in my hometown of Appleton, Wisconsin about putting
in curb and gutter in what amounted to a very rural,
very bucolic country lane type road that my house sat on.
And my grandfather was a doctor and it was also
(04:42):
a big environmental activist. He was one of the key
people involved in cleaning up the Finger Lakes. But I'm
also Irish and they always say the Irish can't stop
talking and protesting, So there is that. My father was
involved in politics and social justice issue growing up as
a becoming a psychiatrist, seeing how people suffer, you know,
(05:05):
it's not a number for a person who hears all
day long about how people are hurting, So everything becomes
very real. There's a face on every issue. You'd have
to be kind of frozen or at least callous, I think,
not to want to help.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
That experience is part of why she ran for US
Senate a while back.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
I ran for the US Senate in Maryland in two
thousand and five two thousand and six, and as you
can see, I did not become a US Senator, but
I became more wedded to the issues that were of
deeper and deepening concern, which included especially not just the
(05:47):
environment writ large, but specifically climate change. And Al Gore
chose me for one of his first fifty to train
in Tennessee.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
Yeah, the former vice president of it Stays and the
person who won the popular vote for president in two
thousand on a campaign addressing global heating, trained Lisa van Sustran,
and a new generation of climate activists were born.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
The Climate Project in two thousand and six recruited fifty
people to train. And it came about because so I
told this might be apocryphal, but it came about because
Al was on one of the morning shows and said
he was going to train people to talk about an
inconvenient truth and the next thing he knew, of course,
having said that he was going to have to do it.
So Roy Neil, his chief of staff then at the time,
(06:37):
and his wife in particular Jenny Kladd took over the
charge to find fifty people, and I was one of
those fifty, and we were out in Carthage, Tennessee, at
his barn, and he taught us all about climate change
and then encouraged each of us to run with it
with our own voices. And in the aftermath it was
(06:59):
like running downhill.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
Doctor van Susteren noticed that very few people were talking
about the mental health toll, but the environment was having
on young people. She found that disturbing. How could they
not be talking about this.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
The only thing is that I thought that we would
be seeing these changes. We look at the numbers, make
the changes right away, and then everybody would be happy
and everything would be correct. But increasingly I saw it
wasn't just the health issues, but specifically mental health toll,
and especially on kids.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
She observed a post traumatic stress that an increasing number
of people are living through.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
On one side is what people are currently experiencing in
terms of often aver an extreme weather event, the anxiety,
generalized anxiety disorder, major depressions or just depression. We find
post traumatic stress disorder. Of course, we find that people
try to numb themselves with alcohol ors and then we
(08:01):
often see domestic violence and it's not really surprising because
think about it. Imagine if your house is burned down,
lone away, flooded, or otherwise swept off the face of
the earth, and you've lost your possessions, maybe your pets,
family members, your everyday life has been disrupted, you've lost
(08:24):
your job, you can't go to school. Do you think
you'd be a little upset. So it's easy once you
drill down anything you know that's right.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
But there's also a pre traumatic stress.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
The emotional toll is derived from the realization that the
science is telling us that we're going to bust through
various irreversible tipping points, that we're getting close to one
point five degrees which a centigrade, which unleashes those climate
tipping points, and so the anticipation is that things are
(08:59):
going to get worse before they ever get better. Well,
I don't like to say that, but that's what's being said.
And newsflash, people don't like to think that things are
going to get worse. So it's what I've dubbed pre
traumatic stress. So the people who are thinking about the future,
(09:21):
and this is particularly true of young people because they're
going to be suffering the cumulative toll. It's the anticipation
of future damage and the recognition that now is the
time to be taking action and there's a robottleneck and
they know it.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
Yeah, and this is what you're saying, this pre traumatic stress,
but also the frustration. I hear you saying about, well,
why aren't we doing something about base?
Speaker 1 (09:48):
A lot is being done. There are plenty of people
are busting there, you know what, to do everything they can.
The issue is are we doing enough in time?
Speaker 3 (09:58):
Yes, I think, I say readly impoint stress. A lot
is happening. A lot is happening. It's just it is
it going up a speeding the scale that we need.
And that's the urgency. And I think that's a sense
of maybe where the frustration is coming in as well.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
And here's the biggest problem, Chris. It's one thing if
you could always say to yourself, well, you know, this
was fate nature whilst it takes its toll, et cetera.
But what's happening now is that people know that the
intensity and the frequency of these extreme weather events have
(10:35):
the handprints of humans all over. So the issue now
is this is willful neglect. This is the difference between
involuntary manslaughter, so to speak, and voluntary manslaughter where you
know full well that you are endangering others but you're
doing it anyway. It's much harder to get over harm
(10:57):
that we believe is not an accident but was intentionally
or partly intentionally by negligence inflicted. This is really unnerving
because that kind of cynicism, it's different from normalizing. This
is cynicism that government doesn't work for you, entergyroads, our
trust in our institutions as being able to keep us safe,
(11:20):
and the consequences of that. For somebody who studies this
is that when people don't believe in their government, they're
not going to get out there and vote. They are
accepting cynically that this is the way things are, and
that's when you see the erosion of democracy.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
Do you see certain populations being more prone to its mindset?
You know, Is it's something that makes someone more vulnerable
to that.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
Yes, of course kids are likely to be I think
more inclined to show some of their anger, and they
also sometimes feel or more vulnerable. Older people tend to
sweep it under the rug. They're not in their idealistic phase.
They aren't going to change the world. They aren't destined
(12:09):
to see the or to experience the consequences of their
bad decisions. We're on a kind of a trajectory that
we're not going to change now. Woods have that whole
world and falling in front of them. They've got to
make these course changes.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
It's easy to see how young people would be more
vulnerable to mental health issues related to the environment, and
the numbers on this are staggering. In a global survey
of ten thousand gen zas, almost sixty percent said that
they felt very or extremely worried about the climate, and
perhaps to doctor Van Susteren's point here, more than fifty
(12:49):
percent reported feeling sad, anxious, angry, and powerless. For a
lot of people, that panic can cause pre traumatic stress
and anxiety, and those feelings can cause emotional paralysis. I
think we can all understand this feeling like no matter
(13:09):
what we do, we're doomed. But that's a totally unhelpful perspective.
We've got to lean on the people around us who
meet the climate crisis with a sense of agency. But
people who say we can fix this.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
And there are other people who by nature have a
feeling of agency, So even if they aren't you the
center of this, or mister or miss important that they
have the sense that they are agents of change and
that they must pick up the standard and bring others
to bring up pick up the standard with them. These
(13:45):
are the people that are kind of natural organizers, collaborators, motivators,
et cetera.
Speaker 3 (13:51):
There's so many people in the world who, in the
face of adversity, find innovative solutions for the future.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
We're on fucking the future. We're on fucking the future.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
I know from personal experience that my turning point was
when I did psychological profiles in the first case that
I was involved with, which is the Juliana case against
the federal government. Juliana is a case of twenty one
youth plaintiffs and Jim Hansen who have sued the federal
government for insufficient action essentially on climate and I spent
(14:37):
several months one summer writing those psychological profiles. I had
worked previously for the executive branch of the government writing profiles,
so it's a familiar territory to me. But I got
to say, I will never be able to forget what
it was like listening to them and experiencing what they're
going through as they contemplate a future that feels dark,
(15:00):
and so once you hear those stories from a person directly,
you can't forget them.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
And as doctor Van Sustrm prepared to expert witness testimony
for Juliana versus United States, she was also working in
the background on another landmark case held versus Montana. But
what we talked about in the last episode.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
The state of Montana had passed a law that prevented
forbid lawmakers from referring or considering climate change in any
of the permits that they would issue or other related
activities to fossil fuel companies and their impact on the environment.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
Last summer, doctor Van Sustrom joined the team of experts
who testified on behalf of the youth plaintiffs in a
small courtroom in Helena, Montana.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
It's a wooden paneled room. It's kind of small, a
very intimate wooden benches and stuff. So it has this
country style feeling, and so it's always the feeling of
irony that it goes out over very high tech services,
but it's just this little group of people that are
(16:13):
fighting for what they believe in. And so we had
a judge that was an old Montana girl. I say
girl because she was in her I think probably in
her early sixties, but you know, a real a Montana stock.
And so it was kind of like central casting for
the characters that were there. They were all Montanas. And
(16:35):
so the feeling of authenticity and the feeling that we
were doing something fundamental and that it was that it
was right, and it was straightforward and it was fair
was a part of the sizzle of excitement that we felt.
So for me, the job was essentially to find out
what the playbook of the lawyers defending the state was
(16:57):
going to be and to counter that. And also I
brought up that my code of ethics says that part
of being a good doctor requires that I take public
health seriously. So I am, in a sense called charged
with that responsibility. And then all I had to do
(17:19):
was show what the State of Montana was doing to
these kids, specifically using their testimony in the courtroom. And
then of course the expert tease that I have that says, yes,
that would cause a person losing your house to fire,
not being able to go out because there's smoke, not
being able to engage in previously enjoyed activities. That's going
(17:40):
to stress a kit out.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
It's an incredible story, but perhaps most importantly, this case
can teach us a lot about why we have to
combat climate anxiety through action. See the foundation for this
case was set a long time ago, but activists who
were fed up with a current status quo.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
It was nineteen seventy two that a group of enterprising
people said, Hey, we love our state of Montana. We
want to put in the state of Montana constitution that
Montana residents have. All right, and this is the constitution
to a safe and healthful environment.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
Okay, let's pause here, what the fuck are you talking about?
Like doctor Van Sustin mentioned, the amendment in Montana that
allowed for this case to go to trial says for
the state must provide a safe and healthful environment. Back
in the seventies, activists saw the environmental degradation happening across
(18:43):
their beloved state.
Speaker 5 (18:45):
We were from Missoula, where on any given day you
couldn't even see the mountains because of what was coming
out of corner Waldorf.
Speaker 3 (18:54):
That's Mae Non Ellingson, who is the youngest member of
the committee that decided on the wording of the Clean
and Healthful Amendment. This clip is from an interview she
did with Montana Technological University.
Speaker 5 (19:06):
It was the beginning of strip mining and eastern Montana
and then we had clear cutting. So for a great
number of us, it's like we didn't want that exact
environment that we had in Montana. We didn't want the
status quo.
Speaker 3 (19:26):
And those words clean and healthful were critical, not just
because they'd be used in the Hell v. Montana lawsuit
fifty years later, but because they meant something to Maine
Non and other activists. They all loved Montana and preserving
a beauty of estate was so important to them they
(19:47):
had to find a way to protect it.
Speaker 5 (19:49):
They were saying, how can we add these words. We
don't know what they mean. We're going to have all
kinds of lawsuits trying to establish what they mean. But
those were words that were actually in federal legislation. They
were in some of the environmental protection legislation.
Speaker 3 (20:09):
It's people like may Non who over fifty years ago
laid the groundwork for young activists to advocate for a
healthy environment in Montana. What the fuck are you're talking about?
Speaker 1 (20:26):
Because of that, that law, we could show in a
million different ways did not render the residents of Montana's
safe and certainly not helpful when it's in the constitution. Jeez,
there it is an ink. It's really hard to get
it off the parchment. So this is what gives people
that sense we can do this, and this is the
first constitutional court case and it is going to embolden others.
(20:50):
So if you've got to be first, be first. If
you've got to be a follower, be a follower. But
get your friends and everybody else to take action, do
what's right now.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
When we're discussing the climate crisis, it's so important that
we also talk about when things went right because talking
about success and the positive effects of activism can give
people a sense of hope, and that hope can help
combat some of a pre traumatic stress that doctor an
Sustrin has been warning us about.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
So here's what's important to say. But we will find
ourselves sometimes lamenting not enough people are taking action. That's
really not a helpful statement. But what is helpful is
if we have a real knowledgeable sense about how we
need to work together, then we need to say more
and more people. And again this is true every day.
(21:41):
Our taking this seriously. So that's what's the empowering message
that gives people the wish to desire, an impulse to
take action and be agents of change.
Speaker 3 (21:53):
Which is all to say, talk about how you feel
with other people, get activated. It will make you feel
a little better. I know. There is a ton of
great work happening right now.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
We are now providing information to states, to local government,
whether it's the city council or whether it's the Committee
on Education, and especially state legislatures, asking for meetings, talking
(22:29):
to them about the emotional toll on kids and using
words language that is important to them because when you
look at what happens in an emotional toll from anything
is you have increased violence. And legislators, people elected to
office a sense to an uptick in criminal activity, behavior, violence,
(22:54):
et cetera. Higher temperatures lead to violence. Certainly a public
health message is important, and we are going to state legislators,
elected officials and saying here's why you need to care.
And what I'm also bringing up is I'm bringing kids
in that have been involved in climate issues before, so
that I'm not bringing them in just for us, but
(23:15):
they've been involved so they can tell what it's like
first person, not me a professional, but first person, and
that's a way to get people to feel the story.
Storytelling is so powerful when you want to get people
to listen.
Speaker 3 (23:31):
And if you feel like you're experiencing mental health issues
from a climate crisis, doctor Van Sustrn has a few
actionable tips for you. First, recognize your feelings. Most reactions
to the climate crisis are totally normal. Worrying about the
climate isn't a mental health illness. It's just a sign
you're absolutely human.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
It is a response to a very serious threat. It
may rise to the level that it makes you ill,
but it's not an illness in and of itself. If
you need professional help, it's because you're really beginning to
shut down. And I've had relatives and boyfriends and girlfriends
(24:13):
of individuals who've said, you know, my family member or
friend won't leave the house. She's panicked. What can we do?
So And if you're really struggling, look for a climate
to wear a therapist directory. You may be able to
find somebody, or I presume you will be able to
find somebody either nearby or else, somebody that sounds like
(24:34):
it would be a good fit, because you know, maybe
you knew you to just talk to somebody who encourages
like a good coach, So therapists can be like good coaches.
It's a person simply who recognizes that climate is a
threat and that it's not surprising that it causes deep anxiety.
Speaker 3 (24:53):
So take a look at a Climate to Wear therapist
directory and know that you can always reach out to
a doctor for help. And there are other ways to
get support too.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
Type in climate cafes and you can find places where
you can join online others who are talking about their
feelings and there is no judgment of what you're saying.
They're not looking for you to provide remedies. You're there
to listen and to experience what other people are experiencing,
(25:24):
and it's just a very supportive environment. Then there is
also a step a little bit more activist is Citizens
Climate Lobby Joan's Citizens Climate Lobby. There you will find
a like minded individuals who really want to wade into
the political sphere and take action. They write op eds,
(25:45):
they share information, lots of good stuff, So Citizens Climate Lobby.
Speaker 3 (25:53):
And finally remember, but what you feel and do matters.
Each of us hold a great deal of power, and
we have to remember that I read not.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
Long ago and this was a good thing for me
to remember is when you feel powerless about something, try
to think of what power you're giving up?
Speaker 3 (26:13):
Hm, Yes, are you really going to give that up? Yeah,
you're really going.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
To give out a good way to confront yourself about
what you might be leaving on the table that you
ought not to.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
Lisa, I really like that. I really I've not heard
that at all. Actually that's about Wow. That's really powerful. Actually,
that's really powerful. Yeah, what power you giving up? Gosh, Lisa. Honestly,
thank you so much of your time. It's been absolutely
brilliant talking to you and completely inspired.
Speaker 6 (26:41):
Now.
Speaker 3 (26:41):
Honestly, it's genuinely, it really is. It's just been a
very wide ranging discussion, but we've just covered so many
important issues. Absolutely, thank you, Thank you. You've been absolutely
wonderful to talk to you. Thank you so much. Honestly,
it really has been brilliant.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
Weird fucking the future. We're a fucking the future.
Speaker 3 (27:06):
It wouldn't be an episode of I'm Fucking the Future
if I didn't bring in the brilliant Maggie Bed for
some good advice too. What fuck can I do? Every
episode we highlight one action you can take to get involved,
and as always we're talking to our friend Maggie bed
for help. Thanks for coming back on the show, Maggie.
Speaker 7 (27:26):
Oh, thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (27:28):
So. Lisa had a lot to say about the negative
impact of climate crisis is having on our mental health.
What's something our listeners can do to protect their mental
health and the health of the people they care about.
Speaker 7 (27:39):
The first thing I want to recommend is a book.
It's a book called It's Not Just You by Tory Sue.
She's an amazing activist and this book will help you
feel that you're not alone. And then the second thing
you can do is find a support group, and for
that I want to recommend A great website was put
(28:00):
together by the rapper Megan the Stallion and it is
called bad Bitches Have Bad Days Too dot com.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
Oh yes, I presume that's a reference to a song anxiety,
So it's probably my favorite maketrack off to Beautiful Mistakes.
Speaker 7 (28:15):
Wow, Chris, you really know the Megan thee Stallion Cadillac.
I am very impressed. Yes, anxiety is about mental health
and Megan and her team have put together this amazing
companion website that is full of incredible resources to help
you find support for what you're going through, whomever and
wherever you are. For example, the site has links to
(28:39):
therapy platforms like the Center for Interactive Mental Health Solutions
and the directory of resources specifically tailored to at risk
and historically marginalized communities. So whoever you are, you'll be
able to find useful mental health support at Bad Bitches
Have Bad Days too dot com.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
And of course, as always.
Speaker 7 (29:01):
You can talk to your doctor, your guidance counselor faith
leader or whoever your trusted figure is about what you're feeling.
The first step to managing these feelings is understanding that
you're not alone.
Speaker 3 (29:15):
Oh thanks, Maggie, And that's what the fuck you can
do this week? What fuck can I do?
Speaker 1 (29:24):
Oh?
Speaker 5 (29:26):
Fucked?
Speaker 3 (29:31):
That's it for now. Next time, on the fucking the Future,
we're talking to one of the greats, an absolute giant
in the fight against climate change, Bill mckibbon.
Speaker 6 (29:41):
You know there's some people who can't reach there, just
spend too much time listening to you know, Donald Trump
or Rush Limbaugh or something. With older people, there's definitely
the idea that, and it turns out to be correct,
that your grand grandkids will h will think you're cool,
get the rested, fucking share whoever, whatever you're doing. But
(30:04):
I think it's just a sense of responsibility. I mean, look,
climate change is basically at test at this point of
whether the Big Brain was a good adaptation or not.
Speaker 3 (30:14):
Thanks for joining me and I'm Fucking the Future. See
you next time.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
We're Fucking the Future.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
I'm Fucking the Future is produced by Imagine Audio and
Awfully Nice for iHeart Podcasts and hosted by me Chris Turney.
The show is written by Meredith Bryan. I'm Fucking the
Future is produced by Amber von Schassen and Rene Colvert.
Ron Howard, Brian Grazer, Carl Welker and Nathan Chloke are
the executive producers from Imagine Audio. Jesse Burton and Katie
(30:50):
Hodges are the executive producers from Awfully Nice. Sound design
and mixing by Evan Arnette, original music by Lillly Hayden
and producing services by Peter mcgriggan. Sam Swinnerton wrote our
theme and all those fun jingles. If you enjoyed this episode,
be sure to rate and review Unfucking the Future on
Apple Podcasts or whether you get your podcasts
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