January 31, 2025 • 33 mins
Dr. Thema Bryant Talks Empowerment, Healing in Her Book 'Matters Of The Heart' + More
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
What's up Its way up with Angela Yee And how
exciting is this for me? Doctor Tama Bryant is here
with me, a New York Times bestselling author, clinical psychologist
but also a professor of psychology at Pepperdine University. And
you have this book, Matters of the Heart, healing your
relationship with yourself and those you love. Thank you so
much for joining us today.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Oh thank you for having me. I am so excited
to be able to talk about this book.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
You know, it's important.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
We do this ask Yee segment every day, and I've
been doing this like for years, but there's a lot
of times that people call up with questions and I'm like,
we need an expert in the building for this because
I can give y all my life experience and sometimes
things like, well, I know what you should do, but
a lot of times things are much deeper than that.
And I saw you previously with mel Robbins. I love
(00:48):
when you did her podcast.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Oh thank you.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
But one thing that you talked about was also why
a clinical psychologist is so important. It's not just like
talking to your friends or talking to your significant other.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Yeah, it's so important for people to have a place
where they don't have to do the labor of taking
care of the other person. So if I'm talking to
a friend or a family member one, as you said,
they're coming from their life experience which may or may
not be identical to yours. And then a lot of
the stress and sometimes trauma that we carry really takes
(01:21):
an understanding to unlock that. When people don't have that sensitivity,
they can either lead us astray or make advice that's
kind of based on assumptions or a limited knowledge. So
we want to create space for our mental health and
then to talk about our challenges with people who have
that background and who can give us their full attention
(01:44):
and full knowledge without it being stressed or burdened. But
it's a real place for truth.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
I'm doctor Tama Brian.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Before we get into anything, I have to ask you
what made you decide this was the work that you
wanted to do.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
So there was a beginning part, which is like when
I was a very little child, say preschool, I was
asked what I wanted to be when I grew up,
and I said I wanted to be a house for
the homeless. And so I was told you can't be that.
You have to pick something else. And so recently me
(02:19):
doing this work of psychology, someone said to me, but
you did become a house and really creating a safe
space for people to be cared for, to be heard,
to be nourished. And in terms of my background, growing up,
I was a pastor's daughter, okay, and so people would,
especially in our community, would call their pastor first if
(02:41):
they were having emotional challenges, family challenges. So I grew
up being aware of pastoral counseling. And then when I
found out that a psychologist was a profession in and
of itself, I said, I think that's me.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
It's interesting.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
I remember in school I had two classmates and their
parents were psychologists, and I feel like in some ways
it messed them up later in life.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
Ah, you know, is that a real thing? Well?
Speaker 2 (03:07):
I think that here's an unfortunate part. Some people go
into psychology but have never done their own work. Okay, right,
so taking the classes is not sufficient. You could memorize terms,
but have you done actually like the internal work, your
own internal healing, so that you can show up authentically,
(03:30):
more lovingly, more graciously. And so you know, one of
the things I did, I have two kids during the
pandemic was for us to have time to talk about,
like what was the best and worst part of your day?
And I wouldn't just ask them, I would give my
answer to right, So creating an atmosphere where we don't
have to pretend, but we can say, like, you know,
(03:51):
missing my friends or not being able to go outside
or whatever it is for there to be truth. So
there are people who are in the profession who need
to take pause and do their internal process.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Right, Yeah, I can see that. And right now we're
watching everything that's been unfolding. Sometimes watching the news can
be really tough, and I say that for myself too,
because I'm watching every day. It's like something new is happening,
something new that we're sounding the alarm on, something.
Speaker 3 (04:23):
That we can't believe that X, Y and Z is happening.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
What do you say to people about the balance of
paying attention to what's going on in the world. Looking
at social media because I look at it for work
all the time, but it's disturbing to me at times
also to see how what the things are that people
are saying. And I think right now, even the algorithm
is feeding us certain things, especially if you happen to
be on X. But what do you say to people
(04:49):
who are like, I want to know what's happening, but
it's also just really weighing on me.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Yeah, this is so important because we can be in
a constant state of stress panic. So we don't want
to go to the other side of that where people
are checked out and are like, oh, I just don't
watch the news. I don't know what's happening.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
Then tell me that that's right.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
They say, I'm protecting my piece, but there are real
things happening that, as you're saying, we want to be
informed about. So I would say monitoring the time you
give it, because since we're in a twenty four hour
news cycle, you could like leave the news channel on
all day long, and so you're just hearing that over
and over again, and now they call everything late breaking news.
(05:28):
Right to keep your yes and so to say I'm
gonna give it this amount of time, or some people
will switch to like written news so that like they'll
skim the article or get the highlights. But to say
I'm not going to give it all my day. And
then in terms of your social media feed, you want
to balance it out because some people are sharing information
(05:52):
from a place of despair that ends up making you
feel more powerless. Right vers some people they're like, these
are challenging times, and these are ways to take care
of yourself. Where these are challenging times and this is
what community members are doing. So I would say check
in with yourself to say, do I feel edified, nourished,
(06:14):
empowered as a result of what I'm consuming?
Speaker 1 (06:18):
You know, I had Rywood Junior up here the other day,
the comedian. He has a new special on Hulu called
Lonely Flowers, and he was talking about how we don't
have the same connections anymore when we're doing things we're
going to it's hard to even get a person on
the phone. Sometimes when you're going to the supermarket, we're
checking ourselves out, or we're having to like call someone
just to open up the case so we can get
(06:39):
something from out of there, or we're just ordering things online.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
Just a lack of connections with each other.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
What do you say to people today that are feeling
like I don't know how I'm ever going to meet anybody,
or I just feel really like empty.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Yeah, it's so important for us to remove any stigma
or shame around that because often we think everybody has
their people but me, and the reality is so many
people are feeling disconnected. And sometimes you might see those
people on social media or even in public with other people,
but still feel like they're not known, they're not seen,
(07:16):
they're not really understood. Because you can be in the
presence of somebody and still feel very lonely. Yes you can, right,
And so then for us to say, I don't have
to be embarrassed about it, and because I realize how
common it is, then I can realize that there are
more people who are looking for connections too. You know,
(07:37):
sometimes we're afraid of like, oh, I'll look like a
loser if I say to someone you want to grab coffee,
not knowing that that person may love to have a
connection as well. So it's like to take the risk
and to know there are people who want deeper connection.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
Okay, let's just say, now, back to somebody saying you
want to grab coffee, let's just say we don't really
want to, but we feel like I feel bad saying no.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
So here's the gift of honesty. Right, If I say.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
Yes out of guilt or lack of interest, that's gonna
lead to another request, and another request, So now you
are abandoning yourself and this person now thinks y'all are
best friends. Right, So if like I already know, we
don't have a lot in common, or we don't really click,
or for whatever reason, it's better to be honest earlier.
Sometimes we're avoidant because we're afraid of hurting people. But
(08:32):
then if you just play that story out, they're gonna
end up being hurt eventually, and then it took even longer.
So I would say, free people and give them the
gift of your honesty so then they can meet people
who actually want to be with them.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
I want to talk about a quote that you had.
The story they have created about your reveal is a
lot about them. Yeah, Peace, I think that is an
amazing quote. So we need to talk about that a
little bit, because I think there's times that there's people
who are in our lives that maybe have a perception
(09:10):
of you based off of expectations that they had of
you or something that just the relationship goes left and
it doesn't work out, and now there's somebody going around
saying these things about you that can be damaging, that
can be hurtful, and then you feel like you have
to defend yourself, and it's like sometimes that turns into
(09:31):
just such a cycle. And I don't think that that
hasn't happened, Like that's happened to everybody.
Speaker 3 (09:35):
At some point, somebody has a.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
Whole other story about you based off of an experience
that they have with you, or something that they may
have created, you know, as a reason. So can you
explain this? The story they have created about you reveals
a lot about them, Yes.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
So often it reveals a lot about their prior experience
with other people. And they may be other people who
look like you, may be other people who are in
your place position, and so then people make assumptions.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
It's like the quick conclusion.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
The example that comes to mind for me is if
someone sees a woman who is let's say, disheveled, not
the shiniest person, and they're kind of quiet and off
to themselves. People would often have compassion for her and say, oh,
my goodness, like maybe she's insecure or nervous, or like,
let me be kind to her. If you are a
(10:28):
very attractive woman and you're just quiet, people will interpret
that ass standoffish. You must think you're better than us.
Or she must think she's cute, like this whole narrative
where it's the same thing. This person is just not
an extrovert, right, And so then I put on you
my past experience with people who I have deemed attractive
(10:49):
or people I have decided are successful, is that they
must be rejecting me as opposed to they're just over
there living their lives. And so we have to be
careful about creating meaning.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
Right.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
It's like if someone walks in this room who you know,
and they don't speak, and I say, like, why do
you think they didn't speak to you? Like you just
say they're mad at me? Or you know, we create
a narrative they might be in their head because they
just saw like a really bad text or email and
they really didn't see you.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Right.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Right, So for us to slow down in our snap
judgments around people, and then when people are making judgments
about us, to really resist the urge to prove to
people who we are right to be settled in myself
(11:42):
right to know myself and to know people who actually
want to take the time to get to.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
Know me will get to know the real me.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
I want to ask you also, as a tenured professor
at Pepperdine University. What is something that you've noticed about
students after the pandemic versus before? Is there anything, because
I know there's a lot of studies about how that's affected,
in particular younger people.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Yes, so that isolation has been so difficult. Many people
had to go through let's say birthdays alone, holidays alone,
and even in the pandemic, the loss of loved ones,
so having to grieve alone. And so for some people
they adjusted to that and so then prefer to stay
(12:28):
in the house or social interactions are more uncomfortable or
awkward for them, And then for other people they are
so desiring it that sometimes they can get ahead of
themselves and saying like this is my new bestie, and
it's like, you know, do you all know each other?
So that it definitely had that social effect, but it
(12:50):
also forced people to find some other resources online and
find communities online. So it's one of the reports the
American Psychological Association did around social media and young people.
Is for some people, especially depending on where they live,
that is their place of belonging right, and then for
others it's comparison and not feeling enough because of you know,
(13:13):
who you're looking at someone's curated, censored life and thinking
like that yours is inadequate.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
You know. We had a listener the other day, callb Asky,
and she was talking about the kind of guys that
she's dating and none of them want to be in
a serious relationship. They tend to be younger. And I
was like, well, have you tried online dating? And she said,
that's for losers. I want to get doctor Tam and Brian.
I want to get your view on people connecting in
(13:41):
that way, because I do know a lot of successful
relationships that have come from that, but there are still
people who feel like, oh I don't want to do that,
but they're craving this connection.
Speaker 3 (13:50):
I want to know what your thoughts are.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Yeah, I think that it can work for and has
worked for a lot of people. And if you're drawing
a certain and type of person, I would encourage two
things that may seem opposite. One is look at your profile,
because sometimes the pictures we post and the way we
talk about ourselves can give people an impression that may
(14:16):
or may not be true that.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
You're doing shots and you're right right.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
So it's like, if I'm presenting as like party up,
and now I'm like, how come no one wants a commitment? Right?
So they looked at that and didn't think that's what
you wanted. And then I'm gonna give the total opposite
of that, which is people.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
Who are.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
Not serious or who are players or who are clowns
approach everybody. So instead of thinking like, what's wrong with me?
My question is not why did they approach you? Is
how long did you entertain them? Okay, right, once you
see that, they're like, oh, I'm not ready for all
of that, but you continue to engage.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
You know.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Now we have kind of that bread crumbing where I
really want a feast, but because they call or text
sometimes I'll take it because it's better than nothing. But
we can fill ourselves with the crumb givers. And what
I like to say I learned early on is sometimes
you have to choose none of the above.
Speaker 3 (15:20):
Right right, and keep this late clear so when the
thing comes, yes.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
You're available, because or when I was younger, I did
think like you pick the best out of your options, right,
But sometimes you don't have good options, so the best
is still at the worst.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
Now.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
The book is called Matters of the Heart Healing, your
relationship with yourself and those you love, And you say,
one of the greatest determinants of wellness is the quality
of our relationships. How can we work on having better
quality relationships, whether it's our friendships, work relationships, significant others.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
Yeah, so one of them is quality time. Sometimes we
are so focused on work or so focused on ourselves
that we neglect our relationships and take people for granted.
So to be intentional, if like someone is my friend
or even family relationships that I want to nourish romantic relationships,
(16:16):
you know, can I protect time for that? Can I
give that time? And then a big part of it
is acceptance versus picking people with potential. Right, So if
I pick people with potential, then I'm trying to make
them into something else. So that's a setup for them
(16:36):
to be frustrated and for you to be disappointed. Right, sure,
And so a part of it is like in my
selection process, right when I pick a good friend, Like,
we can see some of those characteristics from the beginning, right,
the quality of the persons, I would say, the selection
(16:56):
is a part of it. And then self awareness and
self reflection because we're often in this like quick to
cut people. You know, at the end of every year,
they're like, I'm cutting people, and it's like, okay, can you.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
Work on anything?
Speaker 2 (17:10):
Can we And so for me to be honest about
what are ways that I could show up differently as
a friend, right, and for me to be able to
take feedback because that's harder to hear. But we may
be sabotaging some of our relationships and don't know it.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
So being willing to hear it.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
It's interesting because I do feel like I used to
be very forgiving of people and circumstances, and I find
that it's been a burden on me. So I've had
to learn to take people for who they are and
just Okay, they did this. I gave them, you know,
a conversation about why this is not appropriate, and you know,
(17:54):
I saw that you did that and moving forward, and
then I give you the warning and if you keep
on doing it, I have to protect myself.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
That's important, and I think that's a part of the
self awareness. Some of us are quick to cut and
some people don't ever cut, and we just keep giving
grace and giving chances. And so it's the importance of knowing,
as you said, I've given them the feedback. I had
the conversation, I shared what was hurtful or what I
didn't like, and there's been no change.
Speaker 3 (18:22):
Right.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
So now it's not like I just wanted them to
read my mind. It's they're unwilling to show up in
the way that I need or the way that I
find healthy, and so being able and willing to let
that go because we can't force people to be who
we want them to be. Right, So it's like, you
have shown me who you are and I choose to
step back.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
How is that when it comes to family, because sometimes
family members can show you who they are, but you
also feel like, well that's family. What if it's your
parent and they've done really hurtful things to you, but
you don't want to have regrets?
Speaker 2 (19:01):
Lator Yes, Yeah, that's such a good question and one
people have to wrestle with. There are some people who
conclude that even though they're family, I have to eliminate
contact with them because it's unhealthy for me. For a
lot of people, they struggle with that because, as you said,
feeling like this is family, so they have to be
given more grace. And what I would say to that
(19:23):
is moderation and boundaries, right, that just because I say, like,
I'm not gonna cut you off. Now, do I have
to spend every weekend at your house? Do I have
to spend every holiday with you? Or I say, for
some people, when you go there on the holidays, you
can say I'm sitting at the kids table, or like
if they need somebody to.
Speaker 3 (19:43):
Run errands, you know, fine, Oh it's fun, it's fun.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
So and I would say, working to heal our wounds
so that people's dysfunction doesn't hurt our feelings so much.
So you may have that one aunt who's gonna like
criticize your looks or criticize you for still being single,
or say you still don't have children. And so I
have to not be surprised by people who continue to
(20:12):
be themselves right, like they gonna always have something to say,
and it's not.
Speaker 3 (20:16):
Gonna ready for it. Yes I'm ready.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
And it's not gonna stink as much because I don't
agree with them. I'm no longer waiting for their approval.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
Man.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
And one more thing I want to talk about, as
far as matters of the hearts, love and someone who
you realize just does not love you. But sometimes we
make excuses for people right, we see all of the
signs and someone else on the outside can tell us
what it is, but us in that situation, and you know,
(20:46):
sometimes we cut people off because they're not telling us
what we want to hear, and we end up staying
with somebody because we're used to certain things, or we
feel like things will get better, it will change, or
you don't want to desert a person.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
So how do you release somebody who doesn't love you?
Speaker 2 (21:02):
So the first thing is to recognize they're already gone, right,
They're gone. So it's more accepting that they are not
emotionally connected to me. So it's more accepting the truth
instead of having to do something. It is more I
have to give myself permission to see the hard truth
(21:26):
that this person doesn't want me for any reason, and
to kind of change my script because the story we
can tell ourselves is that I'm unlovable or this is
the bright. So if I dress differently, if I talk differently,
if I do these things, that I'm going to heal
them with my love. And that is a setup of
(21:51):
always the relationship being unequal because they have shown you
with their behavior that they're not really interesting. Did and
sometimes we fear that we'll be alone, so we act
as if like this is my last chance for something,
And a part of that can also be our own
(22:13):
emotional unavailability because people who are interested in us, we're
not interested in.
Speaker 3 (22:19):
Isn't that funny, right?
Speaker 1 (22:21):
There are people who would like love to treat you great,
but I want to fight for this right. I want
the one who doesn't want me, and so to settle
with ourselves of releasing them, to make room for people
who are gonna choose me, and uh, to heal the
(22:41):
parts of me that made me feel like I have
to convince people, right, So when I'm clear I'm enough
and that I'm worthy and I may not just be
this person's cup of tea or they might not be
ready for it doesn't matter the reason, because we'll, like
you said, we'll justify and that will keep us in
it much longer. Instead of just saying whatever reason it's
(23:04):
not reciprocated, I would say, amen, cheat, or why don't
I just stay with this because if I go out there,
it's just gonna happen to me with a stranger.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
Yeah, So this is we hold on for familiarity and
we hold on for fear. Right the fear that I
couldn't be treated better. So when we see people being
treated well, we either say that must be a lie
or it's an act, or we say some people deserve
that kind of love, but I could never get that,
(23:35):
So then I got to hold on to what I have.
So it is both believing that in my current circumstance,
the bad outweighs the good. I feel worse about myself
because of the way this person treats me, and to
believe that I can be loved better, even if it's
not immediate, because that's the thing that trips us up.
(23:57):
Sometimes we cut it off and then we're tired of waiting,
so then we text them back right, so what are
you doing right?
Speaker 3 (24:07):
Then we're back in that loop again.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
So it's to develop the capacity to enjoy even if
you don't enjoy it, to deal with the in between
time so that you don't keep surrounding yourself with that
which doesn't honor you.
Speaker 3 (24:24):
As a friend.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
How do you talk to someone who's going through that? Right,
because you know we all have that friend and like
keeps going back? Who keeps on going back? He already done,
went on vacation with another woman?
Speaker 3 (24:36):
He did x, Y and Z.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
He told you he doesn't want to be in a relationship,
but now he changed his mind. You know, you haven't
met his fani. It's all these different things, and she
keeps on going back. What do we do as a
friend to be a good friend to somebody in that situation?
Speaker 2 (24:49):
So one of the things is to not abandon them,
because sometimes what ends up happening is all the friends
are tired of them, and so then they're only friend
is the shady partner, right, so that keeps them. So
even though we could say, like it's frustrating to say,
my biggest priority and goal for you is for you
(25:13):
to be happy and for you to be treated well.
So if this person's gonna do that for you, I
love it. If they're not gonna do that for you,
whenever you're ready to make a shift, I'm here for you,
here to help you, like through that process. And I
would say affirming them, encouraging them, because those dynamics kind
(25:34):
of shatter their self esteem, right, they're self worth, So
then they don't feel good about themselves. So having the
friend who says, you know, you're amazing, right, you're beautiful. Yeah,
I love talking to you, like to affirm and celebrate them,
can help to build them up so they would be
strong enough to step out of that.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
And can we say he ain't shit. Yeah, come on,
you can say that.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
Okay, but let me just let me tell you that.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
That's what I was going to tell you that Usually
with clients who are in that circumstance, I actually asked
them to tell me about all the good stuff, right,
because if we focus on the bad, then they do
get defensive and they feel like, well, you don't like
them anyway, you already made up your mind about them.
So I'll say, tell me all the great things, and
then they're struggling right to think.
Speaker 3 (26:22):
Of the good thing.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
Yes, well, right, because people are whole beings, right, So
usually a person is not a monster or clown all
the time.
Speaker 3 (26:31):
So tell me what it was like in the beginning.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
Tell me about the you know what, what you enjoy
about them, so that I can see the fullness. And
now let's get to the shade, right. So, because if not,
what often happens is the person starts censoring, so then
they're just not telling you the story, right, And then
that's not helpful either.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
I want to ask you, we just recently on lip
service had a guest done and she is polyamorous. She
just proposed to her girlfriend out to Jerry. What are
your thoughts about polyamory when it comes to relationships. Yeah,
I think the importance is going to be honest communication,
because sometimes what you have is one person where that
(27:16):
is like their authentic truth and authentically what they want,
and then sometimes there's another person that who's going along
with it who may not be fully into Yeah, I
feel like yes, and so if I love you, then
you have to And then I'm kind of silently suffering
(27:36):
or silently disappointed, or silently hoping that the narrative is
going to change. So I would just say, now, that's
not always the case, but what I just have seen
clinically is sometimes people aren't standing in their full truth.
So as long as we have people who are operating
from a place of authentic integrity, you know, then you
can have it blossom. I just want to give people
(28:00):
just some kind words about dealing with these next four years.
You know, we've seen a lot of lgbt q IA
rights and trans rights, and you know, people who are
migrants here, a lot of people are being attacked spoken
negatively about, and I just want to know how do
we survive this and how do we come together as community,
(28:23):
because it definitely feels like we're more divided than we've
ever been, and that can be really discouraging for people
as we're trying to figure out how do I go
about my day not knowing if you know something AWF
is going to happen in the news coming up, or
somebody who I know is going to be targeted, it's
just so much going on.
Speaker 3 (28:42):
Thank you for that.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
So the first thing I would say is feel your feelings,
because sometimes we feel like we have to suppress or
ignore or hide our feelings and we and so then
we're pretending to be well right, But instead to say
I like to say, uh, it's healthy to be outraged
(29:04):
about outrageous things, and outrageous things are happening. So it's
a sign of my mental health when I can say
I'm disappointed or I'm grieving about this or I'm outraged
about it. That we don't have. We don't want to
ignore our own humanity. So within our humanity, honor your
(29:24):
feelings and note that. And then I would say, you know,
to revisit history, you know, we've been saying like, oh,
like this has never happened before. Well, we look at history,
it has. Each of each of the identities you mentioned
have lived through hostile times where people who were in
(29:44):
power did not honor your humanity. And so we look
at the ways in which we survived. A part of
it is community, so connecting with people so that we
don't feel so alone. And then around the divisions these
different marginalized groups, working in coalition is how we shift it.
Speaker 3 (30:05):
Right.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
If we remain divided and you know, turn on each other,
then we're not operating in our full power. Right, So
collective liberation means less before the collective, and not only
that we fight and stand up for other people, but
that they do it for us as well, to know,
like these struggles are are connected, right, And then I
(30:30):
would say the arts are a wonderful way to heal
and express ourselves through our music, through our dancing, through
our spiritual practices.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
Food. Yes, we love to come together, but life come around. Yes,
come together around food. It's true, it's true to be.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
You know that that it can be a love language. Right,
the way in which people care for us and bake
for us. I would just say, in addition to the food,
if we can have the converse station, because sometimes it's
the emotional eating and the silence. Right, but if we
can have real community where we break bread together and
(31:09):
do real talk not only about the despair or difficulty,
but the way forward.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
Yeah, yeah, because sometimes when they go low, it's hard
to go hide.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
It can be and and I would say, when people
pull us outside of ourselves, that also doesn't have a
good feeling, right right, It's I like.
Speaker 3 (31:35):
To give people that power to make me not be
who I am.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
Yes, yes, yes, because then they you know, they know
those punches are landing. Right.
Speaker 3 (31:43):
I feel like that about relationships too.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
I never want to be with somebody where I can't
function as who I really am and they have me
acting like out of character.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
Oh this is not for me, right, I don't. And
that's so important because some people will say, you made
me act like this, Well, then you want to make
a different choice. I want to be in the presence
of people who pull out the best of me, right And.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
Yeah, yeah, Well doctor Tama Brian, thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (32:10):
I appreciate this conversation.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
Matters of the heart, healing your relationship with yourself, and
those you love. Such an excellent, excellent conversation. I'm glad
you wrote this book, and I do want to say,
what made you decide this book? Now?
Speaker 2 (32:24):
Yeah, the biggest questions people usually ask me on social
media or in therapy are about relationships. So when they're
done well, they allow us to soar and feel nourished
and protected. And when they are not done well, it's
heartbreaking and it can affect every other area of our lives.
(32:45):
I've seen people mess up in school, mess up and work,
Their health fails because of unhealthy, toxic relationships. So we
want to get it right so we can soar together.
All right, Well, thank you so much. I appreciate you.
Speaker 3 (32:59):
Thanks, thank you for having me. I appreciate you well,
What's up Its way up with Angela Yee And how
exciting is this for me? Doctor Tama Bryant is here
with me, a New York Times bestselling author, clinical psychologist
but also a professor of psychology at Pepperdine University. And
you have this book, Matters of the Heart, healing your
relationship with yourself and those you love. Thank you so
much for joining us today.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Oh thank you for having me. I am so excited
to be able to talk about this book.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
You know, it's important.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
We do this ask Yee segment every day, and I've
been doing this like for years, but there's a lot
of times that people call up with questions and I'm like,
we need an expert in the building for this because
I can give y all my life experience and sometimes
things like, well, I know what you should do, but
a lot of times things are much deeper than that.
And I saw you previously with mel Robbins. I love
(00:48):
when you did her podcast.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Oh thank you.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
But one thing that you talked about was also why
a clinical psychologist is so important. It's not just like
talking to your friends or talking to your significant other.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Yeah, it's so important for people to have a place
where they don't have to do the labor of taking
care of the other person. So if I'm talking to
a friend or a family member one, as you said,
they're coming from their life experience which may or may
not be identical to yours. And then a lot of
the stress and sometimes trauma that we carry really takes
(01:21):
an understanding to unlock that. When people don't have that sensitivity,
they can either lead us astray or make advice that's
kind of based on assumptions or a limited knowledge. So
we want to create space for our mental health and
then to talk about our challenges with people who have
that background and who can give us their full attention
(01:44):
and full knowledge without it being stressed or burdened. But
it's a real place for truth.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
I'm doctor Tama Brian.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Before we get into anything, I have to ask you
what made you decide this was the work that you
wanted to do.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
So there was a beginning part, which is like when
I was a very little child, say preschool, I was
asked what I wanted to be when I grew up,
and I said I wanted to be a house for
the homeless. And so I was told you can't be that.
You have to pick something else. And so recently me
(02:19):
doing this work of psychology, someone said to me, but
you did become a house and really creating a safe
space for people to be cared for, to be heard,
to be nourished. And in terms of my background, growing up,
I was a pastor's daughter, okay, and so people would,
especially in our community, would call their pastor first if
(02:41):
they were having emotional challenges, family challenges. So I grew
up being aware of pastoral counseling. And then when I
found out that a psychologist was a profession in and
of itself, I said, I think that's me.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
It's interesting.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
I remember in school I had two classmates and their
parents were psychologists, and I feel like in some ways
it messed them up later in life.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
Ah, you know, is that a real thing? Well?
Speaker 2 (03:07):
I think that here's an unfortunate part. Some people go
into psychology but have never done their own work. Okay, right,
so taking the classes is not sufficient. You could memorize terms,
but have you done actually like the internal work, your
own internal healing, so that you can show up authentically,
(03:30):
more lovingly, more graciously. And so you know, one of
the things I did, I have two kids during the
pandemic was for us to have time to talk about,
like what was the best and worst part of your day?
And I wouldn't just ask them, I would give my
answer to right, So creating an atmosphere where we don't
have to pretend, but we can say, like, you know,
(03:51):
missing my friends or not being able to go outside
or whatever it is for there to be truth. So
there are people who are in the profession who need
to take pause and do their internal process.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Right, Yeah, I can see that. And right now we're
watching everything that's been unfolding. Sometimes watching the news can
be really tough, and I say that for myself too,
because I'm watching every day. It's like something new is happening,
something new that we're sounding the alarm on, something.
Speaker 3 (04:23):
That we can't believe that X, Y and Z is happening.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
What do you say to people about the balance of
paying attention to what's going on in the world. Looking
at social media because I look at it for work
all the time, but it's disturbing to me at times
also to see how what the things are that people
are saying. And I think right now, even the algorithm
is feeding us certain things, especially if you happen to
be on X. But what do you say to people
(04:49):
who are like, I want to know what's happening, but
it's also just really weighing on me.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Yeah, this is so important because we can be in
a constant state of stress panic. So we don't want
to go to the other side of that where people
are checked out and are like, oh, I just don't
watch the news. I don't know what's happening.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
Then tell me that that's right.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
They say, I'm protecting my piece, but there are real
things happening that, as you're saying, we want to be
informed about. So I would say monitoring the time you
give it, because since we're in a twenty four hour
news cycle, you could like leave the news channel on
all day long, and so you're just hearing that over
and over again, and now they call everything late breaking news.
(05:28):
Right to keep your yes and so to say I'm
gonna give it this amount of time, or some people
will switch to like written news so that like they'll
skim the article or get the highlights. But to say
I'm not going to give it all my day. And
then in terms of your social media feed, you want
to balance it out because some people are sharing information
(05:52):
from a place of despair that ends up making you
feel more powerless. Right vers some people they're like, these
are challenging times, and these are ways to take care
of yourself. Where these are challenging times and this is
what community members are doing. So I would say check
in with yourself to say, do I feel edified, nourished,
(06:14):
empowered as a result of what I'm consuming?
Speaker 1 (06:18):
You know, I had Rywood Junior up here the other day,
the comedian. He has a new special on Hulu called
Lonely Flowers, and he was talking about how we don't
have the same connections anymore when we're doing things we're
going to it's hard to even get a person on
the phone. Sometimes when you're going to the supermarket, we're
checking ourselves out, or we're having to like call someone
just to open up the case so we can get
(06:39):
something from out of there, or we're just ordering things online.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
Just a lack of connections with each other.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
What do you say to people today that are feeling
like I don't know how I'm ever going to meet anybody,
or I just feel really like empty.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Yeah, it's so important for us to remove any stigma
or shame around that because often we think everybody has
their people but me, and the reality is so many
people are feeling disconnected. And sometimes you might see those
people on social media or even in public with other people,
but still feel like they're not known, they're not seen,
(07:16):
they're not really understood. Because you can be in the
presence of somebody and still feel very lonely. Yes you can, right,
And so then for us to say, I don't have
to be embarrassed about it, and because I realize how
common it is, then I can realize that there are
more people who are looking for connections too. You know,
(07:37):
sometimes we're afraid of like, oh, I'll look like a
loser if I say to someone you want to grab coffee,
not knowing that that person may love to have a
connection as well. So it's like to take the risk
and to know there are people who want deeper connection.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
Okay, let's just say, now, back to somebody saying you
want to grab coffee, let's just say we don't really
want to, but we feel like I feel bad saying no.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
So here's the gift of honesty. Right, If I say.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
Yes out of guilt or lack of interest, that's gonna
lead to another request, and another request, So now you
are abandoning yourself and this person now thinks y'all are
best friends. Right, So if like I already know, we
don't have a lot in common, or we don't really click,
or for whatever reason, it's better to be honest earlier.
Sometimes we're avoidant because we're afraid of hurting people. But
(08:32):
then if you just play that story out, they're gonna
end up being hurt eventually, and then it took even longer.
So I would say, free people and give them the
gift of your honesty so then they can meet people
who actually want to be with them.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
I want to talk about a quote that you had.
The story they have created about your reveal is a
lot about them. Yeah, Peace, I think that is an
amazing quote. So we need to talk about that a
little bit, because I think there's times that there's people
who are in our lives that maybe have a perception
(09:10):
of you based off of expectations that they had of
you or something that just the relationship goes left and
it doesn't work out, and now there's somebody going around
saying these things about you that can be damaging, that
can be hurtful, and then you feel like you have
to defend yourself, and it's like sometimes that turns into
(09:31):
just such a cycle. And I don't think that that
hasn't happened, Like that's happened to everybody.
Speaker 3 (09:35):
At some point, somebody has a.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
Whole other story about you based off of an experience
that they have with you, or something that they may
have created, you know, as a reason. So can you
explain this? The story they have created about you reveals
a lot about them, Yes.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
So often it reveals a lot about their prior experience
with other people. And they may be other people who
look like you, may be other people who are in
your place position, and so then people make assumptions.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
It's like the quick conclusion.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
The example that comes to mind for me is if
someone sees a woman who is let's say, disheveled, not
the shiniest person, and they're kind of quiet and off
to themselves. People would often have compassion for her and say, oh,
my goodness, like maybe she's insecure or nervous, or like,
let me be kind to her. If you are a
(10:28):
very attractive woman and you're just quiet, people will interpret
that ass standoffish. You must think you're better than us.
Or she must think she's cute, like this whole narrative
where it's the same thing. This person is just not
an extrovert, right, And so then I put on you
my past experience with people who I have deemed attractive
(10:49):
or people I have decided are successful, is that they
must be rejecting me as opposed to they're just over
there living their lives. And so we have to be
careful about creating meaning.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
Right.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
It's like if someone walks in this room who you know,
and they don't speak, and I say, like, why do
you think they didn't speak to you? Like you just
say they're mad at me? Or you know, we create
a narrative they might be in their head because they
just saw like a really bad text or email and
they really didn't see you.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Right.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Right, So for us to slow down in our snap
judgments around people, and then when people are making judgments
about us, to really resist the urge to prove to
people who we are right to be settled in myself
(11:42):
right to know myself and to know people who actually
want to take the time to get to.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
Know me will get to know the real me.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
I want to ask you also, as a tenured professor
at Pepperdine University. What is something that you've noticed about
students after the pandemic versus before? Is there anything, because
I know there's a lot of studies about how that's affected,
in particular younger people.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Yes, so that isolation has been so difficult. Many people
had to go through let's say birthdays alone, holidays alone,
and even in the pandemic, the loss of loved ones,
so having to grieve alone. And so for some people
they adjusted to that and so then prefer to stay
(12:28):
in the house or social interactions are more uncomfortable or
awkward for them, And then for other people they are
so desiring it that sometimes they can get ahead of
themselves and saying like this is my new bestie, and
it's like, you know, do you all know each other?
So that it definitely had that social effect, but it
(12:50):
also forced people to find some other resources online and
find communities online. So it's one of the reports the
American Psychological Association did around social media and young people.
Is for some people, especially depending on where they live,
that is their place of belonging right, and then for
others it's comparison and not feeling enough because of you know,
(13:13):
who you're looking at someone's curated, censored life and thinking
like that yours is inadequate.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
You know. We had a listener the other day, callb Asky,
and she was talking about the kind of guys that
she's dating and none of them want to be in
a serious relationship. They tend to be younger. And I
was like, well, have you tried online dating? And she said,
that's for losers. I want to get doctor Tam and Brian.
I want to get your view on people connecting in
(13:41):
that way, because I do know a lot of successful
relationships that have come from that, but there are still
people who feel like, oh I don't want to do that,
but they're craving this connection.
Speaker 3 (13:50):
I want to know what your thoughts are.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Yeah, I think that it can work for and has
worked for a lot of people. And if you're drawing
a certain and type of person, I would encourage two
things that may seem opposite. One is look at your profile,
because sometimes the pictures we post and the way we
talk about ourselves can give people an impression that may
(14:16):
or may not be true that.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
You're doing shots and you're right right.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
So it's like, if I'm presenting as like party up,
and now I'm like, how come no one wants a commitment? Right?
So they looked at that and didn't think that's what
you wanted. And then I'm gonna give the total opposite
of that, which is people.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
Who are.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
Not serious or who are players or who are clowns
approach everybody. So instead of thinking like, what's wrong with me?
My question is not why did they approach you? Is
how long did you entertain them? Okay, right, once you
see that, they're like, oh, I'm not ready for all
of that, but you continue to engage.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
You know.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Now we have kind of that bread crumbing where I
really want a feast, but because they call or text
sometimes I'll take it because it's better than nothing. But
we can fill ourselves with the crumb givers. And what
I like to say I learned early on is sometimes
you have to choose none of the above.
Speaker 3 (15:20):
Right right, and keep this late clear so when the
thing comes, yes.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
You're available, because or when I was younger, I did
think like you pick the best out of your options, right,
But sometimes you don't have good options, so the best
is still at the worst.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
Now.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
The book is called Matters of the Heart Healing, your
relationship with yourself and those you love, And you say,
one of the greatest determinants of wellness is the quality
of our relationships. How can we work on having better
quality relationships, whether it's our friendships, work relationships, significant others.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
Yeah, so one of them is quality time. Sometimes we
are so focused on work or so focused on ourselves
that we neglect our relationships and take people for granted.
So to be intentional, if like someone is my friend
or even family relationships that I want to nourish romantic relationships,
(16:16):
you know, can I protect time for that? Can I
give that time? And then a big part of it
is acceptance versus picking people with potential. Right, So if
I pick people with potential, then I'm trying to make
them into something else. So that's a setup for them
(16:36):
to be frustrated and for you to be disappointed. Right, sure,
And so a part of it is like in my
selection process, right when I pick a good friend, Like,
we can see some of those characteristics from the beginning, right,
the quality of the persons, I would say, the selection
(16:56):
is a part of it. And then self awareness and
self reflection because we're often in this like quick to
cut people. You know, at the end of every year,
they're like, I'm cutting people, and it's like, okay, can you.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
Work on anything?
Speaker 2 (17:10):
Can we And so for me to be honest about
what are ways that I could show up differently as
a friend, right, and for me to be able to
take feedback because that's harder to hear. But we may
be sabotaging some of our relationships and don't know it.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
So being willing to hear it.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
It's interesting because I do feel like I used to
be very forgiving of people and circumstances, and I find
that it's been a burden on me. So I've had
to learn to take people for who they are and
just Okay, they did this. I gave them, you know,
a conversation about why this is not appropriate, and you know,
(17:54):
I saw that you did that and moving forward, and
then I give you the warning and if you keep
on doing it, I have to protect myself.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
That's important, and I think that's a part of the
self awareness. Some of us are quick to cut and
some people don't ever cut, and we just keep giving
grace and giving chances. And so it's the importance of knowing,
as you said, I've given them the feedback. I had
the conversation, I shared what was hurtful or what I
didn't like, and there's been no change.
Speaker 3 (18:22):
Right.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
So now it's not like I just wanted them to
read my mind. It's they're unwilling to show up in
the way that I need or the way that I
find healthy, and so being able and willing to let
that go because we can't force people to be who
we want them to be. Right, So it's like, you
have shown me who you are and I choose to
step back.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
How is that when it comes to family, because sometimes
family members can show you who they are, but you
also feel like, well that's family. What if it's your
parent and they've done really hurtful things to you, but
you don't want to have regrets?
Speaker 2 (19:01):
Lator Yes, Yeah, that's such a good question and one
people have to wrestle with. There are some people who
conclude that even though they're family, I have to eliminate
contact with them because it's unhealthy for me. For a
lot of people, they struggle with that because, as you said,
feeling like this is family, so they have to be
given more grace. And what I would say to that
(19:23):
is moderation and boundaries, right, that just because I say, like,
I'm not gonna cut you off. Now, do I have
to spend every weekend at your house? Do I have
to spend every holiday with you? Or I say, for
some people, when you go there on the holidays, you
can say I'm sitting at the kids table, or like
if they need somebody to.
Speaker 3 (19:43):
Run errands, you know, fine, Oh it's fun, it's fun.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
So and I would say, working to heal our wounds
so that people's dysfunction doesn't hurt our feelings so much.
So you may have that one aunt who's gonna like
criticize your looks or criticize you for still being single,
or say you still don't have children. And so I
have to not be surprised by people who continue to
(20:12):
be themselves right, like they gonna always have something to say,
and it's not.
Speaker 3 (20:16):
Gonna ready for it. Yes I'm ready.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
And it's not gonna stink as much because I don't
agree with them. I'm no longer waiting for their approval.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
Man.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
And one more thing I want to talk about, as
far as matters of the hearts, love and someone who
you realize just does not love you. But sometimes we
make excuses for people right, we see all of the
signs and someone else on the outside can tell us
what it is, but us in that situation, and you know,
(20:46):
sometimes we cut people off because they're not telling us
what we want to hear, and we end up staying
with somebody because we're used to certain things, or we
feel like things will get better, it will change, or
you don't want to desert a person.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
So how do you release somebody who doesn't love you?
Speaker 2 (21:02):
So the first thing is to recognize they're already gone, right,
They're gone. So it's more accepting that they are not
emotionally connected to me. So it's more accepting the truth
instead of having to do something. It is more I
have to give myself permission to see the hard truth
(21:26):
that this person doesn't want me for any reason, and
to kind of change my script because the story we
can tell ourselves is that I'm unlovable or this is
the bright. So if I dress differently, if I talk differently,
if I do these things, that I'm going to heal
them with my love. And that is a setup of
(21:51):
always the relationship being unequal because they have shown you
with their behavior that they're not really interesting. Did and
sometimes we fear that we'll be alone, so we act
as if like this is my last chance for something,
And a part of that can also be our own
(22:13):
emotional unavailability because people who are interested in us, we're
not interested in.
Speaker 3 (22:19):
Isn't that funny, right?
Speaker 1 (22:21):
There are people who would like love to treat you great,
but I want to fight for this right. I want
the one who doesn't want me, and so to settle
with ourselves of releasing them, to make room for people
who are gonna choose me, and uh, to heal the
(22:41):
parts of me that made me feel like I have
to convince people, right, So when I'm clear I'm enough
and that I'm worthy and I may not just be
this person's cup of tea or they might not be
ready for it doesn't matter the reason, because we'll, like
you said, we'll justify and that will keep us in
it much longer. Instead of just saying whatever reason it's
(23:04):
not reciprocated, I would say, amen, cheat, or why don't
I just stay with this because if I go out there,
it's just gonna happen to me with a stranger.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
Yeah, So this is we hold on for familiarity and
we hold on for fear. Right the fear that I
couldn't be treated better. So when we see people being
treated well, we either say that must be a lie
or it's an act, or we say some people deserve
that kind of love, but I could never get that,
(23:35):
So then I got to hold on to what I have.
So it is both believing that in my current circumstance,
the bad outweighs the good. I feel worse about myself
because of the way this person treats me, and to
believe that I can be loved better, even if it's
not immediate, because that's the thing that trips us up.
(23:57):
Sometimes we cut it off and then we're tired of waiting,
so then we text them back right, so what are
you doing right?
Speaker 3 (24:07):
Then we're back in that loop again.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
So it's to develop the capacity to enjoy even if
you don't enjoy it, to deal with the in between
time so that you don't keep surrounding yourself with that
which doesn't honor you.
Speaker 3 (24:24):
As a friend.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
How do you talk to someone who's going through that? Right,
because you know we all have that friend and like
keeps going back? Who keeps on going back? He already done,
went on vacation with another woman?
Speaker 3 (24:36):
He did x, Y and Z.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
He told you he doesn't want to be in a relationship,
but now he changed his mind. You know, you haven't
met his fani. It's all these different things, and she
keeps on going back. What do we do as a
friend to be a good friend to somebody in that situation?
Speaker 2 (24:49):
So one of the things is to not abandon them,
because sometimes what ends up happening is all the friends
are tired of them, and so then they're only friend
is the shady partner, right, so that keeps them. So
even though we could say, like it's frustrating to say,
my biggest priority and goal for you is for you
(25:13):
to be happy and for you to be treated well.
So if this person's gonna do that for you, I
love it. If they're not gonna do that for you,
whenever you're ready to make a shift, I'm here for you,
here to help you, like through that process. And I
would say affirming them, encouraging them, because those dynamics kind
(25:34):
of shatter their self esteem, right, they're self worth, So
then they don't feel good about themselves. So having the
friend who says, you know, you're amazing, right, you're beautiful. Yeah,
I love talking to you, like to affirm and celebrate them,
can help to build them up so they would be
strong enough to step out of that.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
And can we say he ain't shit. Yeah, come on,
you can say that.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
Okay, but let me just let me tell you that.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
That's what I was going to tell you that Usually
with clients who are in that circumstance, I actually asked
them to tell me about all the good stuff, right,
because if we focus on the bad, then they do
get defensive and they feel like, well, you don't like
them anyway, you already made up your mind about them.
So I'll say, tell me all the great things, and
then they're struggling right to think.
Speaker 3 (26:22):
Of the good thing.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
Yes, well, right, because people are whole beings, right, So
usually a person is not a monster or clown all
the time.
Speaker 3 (26:31):
So tell me what it was like in the beginning.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
Tell me about the you know what, what you enjoy
about them, so that I can see the fullness. And
now let's get to the shade, right. So, because if not,
what often happens is the person starts censoring, so then
they're just not telling you the story, right, And then
that's not helpful either.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
I want to ask you, we just recently on lip
service had a guest done and she is polyamorous. She
just proposed to her girlfriend out to Jerry. What are
your thoughts about polyamory when it comes to relationships. Yeah,
I think the importance is going to be honest communication,
because sometimes what you have is one person where that
(27:16):
is like their authentic truth and authentically what they want,
and then sometimes there's another person that who's going along
with it who may not be fully into Yeah, I
feel like yes, and so if I love you, then
you have to And then I'm kind of silently suffering
(27:36):
or silently disappointed, or silently hoping that the narrative is
going to change. So I would just say, now, that's
not always the case, but what I just have seen
clinically is sometimes people aren't standing in their full truth.
So as long as we have people who are operating
from a place of authentic integrity, you know, then you
can have it blossom. I just want to give people
(28:00):
just some kind words about dealing with these next four years.
You know, we've seen a lot of lgbt q IA
rights and trans rights, and you know, people who are
migrants here, a lot of people are being attacked spoken
negatively about, and I just want to know how do
we survive this and how do we come together as community,
(28:23):
because it definitely feels like we're more divided than we've
ever been, and that can be really discouraging for people
as we're trying to figure out how do I go
about my day not knowing if you know something AWF
is going to happen in the news coming up, or
somebody who I know is going to be targeted, it's
just so much going on.
Speaker 3 (28:42):
Thank you for that.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
So the first thing I would say is feel your feelings,
because sometimes we feel like we have to suppress or
ignore or hide our feelings and we and so then
we're pretending to be well right, But instead to say
I like to say, uh, it's healthy to be outraged
(29:04):
about outrageous things, and outrageous things are happening. So it's
a sign of my mental health when I can say
I'm disappointed or I'm grieving about this or I'm outraged
about it. That we don't have. We don't want to
ignore our own humanity. So within our humanity, honor your
(29:24):
feelings and note that. And then I would say, you know,
to revisit history, you know, we've been saying like, oh,
like this has never happened before. Well, we look at history,
it has. Each of each of the identities you mentioned
have lived through hostile times where people who were in
(29:44):
power did not honor your humanity. And so we look
at the ways in which we survived. A part of
it is community, so connecting with people so that we
don't feel so alone. And then around the divisions these
different marginalized groups, working in coalition is how we shift it.
Speaker 3 (30:05):
Right.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
If we remain divided and you know, turn on each other,
then we're not operating in our full power. Right, So
collective liberation means less before the collective, and not only
that we fight and stand up for other people, but
that they do it for us as well, to know,
like these struggles are are connected, right, And then I
(30:30):
would say the arts are a wonderful way to heal
and express ourselves through our music, through our dancing, through
our spiritual practices.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
Food. Yes, we love to come together, but life come around. Yes,
come together around food. It's true, it's true to be.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
You know that that it can be a love language. Right,
the way in which people care for us and bake
for us. I would just say, in addition to the food,
if we can have the converse station, because sometimes it's
the emotional eating and the silence. Right, but if we
can have real community where we break bread together and
(31:09):
do real talk not only about the despair or difficulty,
but the way forward.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
Yeah, yeah, because sometimes when they go low, it's hard
to go hide.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
It can be and and I would say, when people
pull us outside of ourselves, that also doesn't have a
good feeling, right right, It's I like.
Speaker 3 (31:35):
To give people that power to make me not be
who I am.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
Yes, yes, yes, because then they you know, they know
those punches are landing. Right.
Speaker 3 (31:43):
I feel like that about relationships too.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
I never want to be with somebody where I can't
function as who I really am and they have me
acting like out of character.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
Oh this is not for me, right, I don't. And
that's so important because some people will say, you made
me act like this, Well, then you want to make
a different choice. I want to be in the presence
of people who pull out the best of me, right And.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
Yeah, yeah, Well doctor Tama Brian, thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (32:10):
I appreciate this conversation.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
Matters of the heart, healing your relationship with yourself, and
those you love. Such an excellent, excellent conversation. I'm glad
you wrote this book, and I do want to say,
what made you decide this book? Now?
Speaker 2 (32:24):
Yeah, the biggest questions people usually ask me on social
media or in therapy are about relationships. So when they're
done well, they allow us to soar and feel nourished
and protected. And when they are not done well, it's
heartbreaking and it can affect every other area of our lives.
(32:45):
I've seen people mess up in school, mess up and work,
Their health fails because of unhealthy, toxic relationships. So we
want to get it right so we can soar together.
All right, Well, thank you so much. I appreciate you.
Speaker 3 (32:59):
Thanks, thank you for having me. I appreciate you well,
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