December 15, 2022 • 49 mins
Josh finally lets his inner fanboy out by talking to his favorite musician of 2022 — the one-of-a-kind genius Penelope Scott. After rising to fame and sonic virality on TikTok for her shockingly honest and extremely online songs, Scott went on to garner hundreds of millions of listens across the internet, along with all of the commentary you might imagine is unavoidable when that happens. Whether it’s songs about how Ted Bundy truly sucks, succinct takedowns of America’s broken healthcare system, or a deconstruction of the lies Silicon Valley tells us (set against an 8-bit carnival stomp of course), everything she touches seems infused with an energy that is uniquely of this moment. Discussed: The discourse behind the discourse, LMMS, four hour remixes, pandemic memory issues.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:17):
Hey, and welcome to What Future. I am your host,
Joshua Sapolski, and today I'm very excited because we have Frankly,
an unusual guest for the show at least thus far,
a bona fide songwriter, musician, producer who I am very
into at the moment. A woman named Penelope Scott. I
bought on Vinyl. I bought a T shirt of hers.
(00:38):
I mean, I became a complete fanboy over over this music.
And what I didn't know and what you wouldn't know,
of course if you listen to this or you heard
it on Spotify, is she became well known. And the
only reason that these records exist at all, and that
she's touring and that you know she's got millions of
plays on these different services and stuff, is because she
(00:59):
had song that got popular on TikTok. And that is
a that's a weird path of like I know that
it exists in lots of different ways for lots of
different people, but like when you hear about who the
TikTok influence are, actually this is very related to the
some of the stuff that Taylor and I were talking
about last week. When you hear about like the influencer thing.
It's usually like these like girls who do dances or
(01:19):
like funny like comedians doing things, or like weird stunt
videos or whatever, and it turns out there's like actually
really active world of music happening there, and like the
music is just super interesting and unusually produced and unusually
written and combines lots of different genres that I feel
like shouldn't go together but weirdly do. So we got
(01:41):
Penelope to come on the podcast and talk about hopefully
some of this stuff and maybe some other things, and
to be honest, as a huge fanboy of her music
and songwriting, I'm just sort of curious about when the
album's gonna drop, sort of selfishly. So here is singer, songwriter,
producer Penelopes got Penelope, thank you for being here. First off,
(02:18):
this is very exciting. I'm a huge fan, which sounds like, frankly,
like a weird thing to say to anybody, but I
was telling the story just you know, before you got
on that I discovered your music in a sort of
weird roundabout way, which wells probably not that round about,
but I it's like one of your songs was on
a random Spotify playlist. I was listening to and I
(02:38):
heard it and I was like, this is what is this?
At first, I was like what is this? Because frankly,
what you make is so distinct that my brain like
sort of short circuit. And I was like, I've done
maybe I hate that. I might hate this right at first,
And then I took a second because I have a
very immediately critical reaction to many things in life, and
so I was like, let me just let let me
let the sink in. And I was like, well, no, wait,
(03:00):
actually this is really good. And so I liked it,
as one does on Spotify, and then I forgot all
about that that the song existed. Just feel better. By
the way, his the name of the song. Maybe you've
heard of it. It's one that you did. Yeah. Anyhow,
then I came back to it many months later because
I remember that it existed. I went, and then I
went and I listened to I think like most of
(03:22):
or maybe everything that I could find of yours on
the internet. And it's really really good and interesting and weird.
And um, I used to produce music, so you know,
to me, it's like the songs are really interesting and
weird and good, but also the production is very like
unusual and surprising and exciting to listen to. Let me
(03:43):
ask you, do you produce your own stuff? Is it
all you? Yeah? Well, first of all, thank you, I
appreciate that, and yeah, I do produce all my own
music so far. Now now I'm starting to like actually
be willing to accept help from other people. But yes, Um,
the Drunkyard two was like completely voice memo material, so
(04:05):
there was no production, and then Public Void I produced it.
I mean Junkyard too. It's interesting you say voice memos
because to me it has because I'm extremely old and
near death, it has a quality of like a four
track or like you know, like Elliott Smith, like demos
or whatever, like in the sense that the distance between
like the stuff that you did on on that record
and what I think of as classic like demo sounding
(04:28):
or indie sounding stuff. Is it actually you recorded into
voice memos? Yeah, most of them were recorded in the
voice memo app on my iPhone. Yeah. Basically what happened
is that I have been playing music for a while
and I would record them sometimes just to have them
and to be able to listen to them later and
hear the songs. And then um, when a couple of
songs started to become popular online. I just went back
(04:48):
for the best of those and put them all together
and released that. Oh I see like a splice of
all those different ones. I think the production on your
stuff is so weird and interesting and like you and
I probably could just have a really nerdy conversation about this.
But first off, like for me, like you, like ten
years ago, like I was like obsessed with like chip
tune ship like or maybe even earlier than that. It's
(05:10):
funny because when I hear it now, I'm usually like, god, no,
like it's so overused and so played out, and like
everybody's just like doing the same thing. And yet like
when I hear it, like whatever the kind of chip
tuning stuff in your music that I've heard, I'm like,
oh god, that sounds so fresh and interesting original. I
have to say, like it's very impressive, But the way
you blend it with other it's such an unexpected way
(05:31):
of mixing sounds together. By the way, this is like
totally we don't have to talk about this, but I
have all these questions, like like I wanted to like
how you actually like what are you producing in Like
what do you like tracking um pro tools really Yeah,
So I learned pro Tools. I had a little bit
of help, but a lot of it was just me
beating my head against the wall and it it's it's gnarly,
(05:54):
but it's fun and it's crazy pro Tools. Nobody even
talks about pro tools anymore. It's like for such a
long time it was the de facto like pro studio situation,
and then everybody just kind of like shifted to weird
ship like and everybody's like, oh, I just use logic
or whatever because I'm only doing it on a laptop.
So it's fascinating that anybody still uses pro tools. In
my opinion, I'm just like blown away by it. It's wild.
(06:16):
Pro Tools is like the badass one that I'm like
trying to get more proficient at. And then the back
tracks for a bunch of the songs in public Void
was was Limbs, which I don't know how adults say it,
but we always have Limbs and it's just like l
m MS version one point two point one. It's a
free software and we downloaded it. This is kind of fun.
(06:39):
So I was in a music and technology class just
pre pandemic, and then everything went on zoom, and so
half the kids aren't on campus and half the kids are,
so they have to come up with a way to
still be teaching the software when half the kids don't
have access to the software. So they had us download
new free worse software that everyone could use instead of
(07:01):
using the university software. Well it makes sense kind of, yeah,
And it's like you can't do a lot of the
stuff you can do with other things because it's like
a free version of it. So you just go through
and one by one click where the notes are supposed
to be and just compose and just map them on
from scratch, and you have your little drum loop and
you have your little automation track. And that's what like
(07:22):
five of the songs from Public Void was originally made in.
But then I took that backtrack and put it into proachals.
So I have downloaded so many random, weird like open
source like audio apps. So I totally understand this. But
and yeah, this is fascinating. We can have about this
for a long time. But when I knew that you
were going to come on the show, I started to
do some like you know, non stalker but like deep research,
(07:45):
at least as deep as I could get because I'm
also very lazy, and so what I did not realize
and sort of didn't realize at first, and I listen
to a bunch of your stuff and it did not
occur to me at all, Like you've got a lot
of plays on Spotify and like you've got a bunch
of records there, you know, albums whatever, ep whatever people
call them these days, And nothing seemed unusual about that
to me. And then like as I kind of dug
(08:06):
into it, like you you became known for your music,
like through what TikTok? Is that where this started? Yeah,
I would say that's where it started. And it seems
like fairly organically, like you were just putting music on there,
Like I mean, I'm curious like if it was your
goal or not for people to like pay attention to
and share that stuff widely, but like you were just
like putting ideas on TikTok? Is that is that right? Yeah?
(08:28):
I mean, okay, I had had a band camp for
a while where I was just storing the music projects.
And then I would say, I don't even know when
this happened, probably like download TikTok and I'm like these
are fun I like these videos, and then I start
seeing my friends post and I'm like, I should post
(08:49):
some videos. What am I good at? Well, I'm good
at dicking around in my dorm room and I'm also
good at playing music, so I'll combine those two things.
And then when the music videos started doing well, I
had to like real quick takedown all the stuff that
like was you did not like match the quality. Yeah,
the stuff that was just like my idiot friends, like
cart wheeling down the hall. I had to be like,
(09:11):
maybe we don't broadcast this any See what you're saying
is like there could have been another version of this
where you got really popular for cart wheeling down a
hall or something. Yeah, yeah, there definitely was another version
which would have been interesting, but no, the music thing
ended up being the thing, and I went with it.
I mean, what's the first thing that you that you
posted that I felt like it took on something, you know,
(09:33):
beyond like sort of your like friends reach or whatever. Um.
It was born to run and it was sweet Hibiscus
Tea and I don't remember which got traction first, but
both of them got popular towards the end of the
school year. So it would have been like what like
May August or May. No, that's not right, that's not
right at all. I'm I'm sorry. This is pandemic memory,
(09:55):
so I'm totally blurring all the timeline. But yeah, basically
towards the end of the year is that, um god,
I don't even know, do you know? You know? I don't,
I don't know, I don't don't. I want to say
public void you release in so right, I could be
wrong about that, but sure, Like I'm not sure it's okay.
(10:18):
It's been a fucked up couple of years. I think
we're all I think we're all confused about what's been happening.
But let's just say from the last in the last
couple of years, you've been doing a lot of this.
But like what was interesting to me is, and I
did not even take into account at all, is that
the kind of core the source of this is TikTok.
I mean, maybe there's other places that I don't know about,
like you mentioned band camp, but like on TikTok as
(10:39):
I kind of delved into your stuff there and then
like you're the community, like not only did these songs
sort of take on a life of their own, which
I mean, I'm kind of curious, Like there's all these
different versions of your songs, like they're sped up or
they're slowed down, or they're like weirdly remixed or whatever.
What is that like, Like, what's the experience of just
having that stuff kind of spit back got you in
(11:00):
a in a different form. Yeah, it's definitely interesting. There's
two aspects to this, right. There's like the audio aspect,
where it's like it's always surreal to see your own
content reappear on someone else's account in any way, and like,
especially if you're on YouTube and it's like, you know,
feel better for four hours looped reverb added like rat
but you're in the bathroom at a party. It's just
(11:22):
that is interesting. It's just like, yeah, I don't know
if RAT but you're in the bathroom of a party
specifically exists, but yes, that that genre, right, It's like
this thing a lot, but slightly tweaked in some weird way. Yeah. Well,
the other aspect of it is just the fact that
(11:43):
the kind of music I was making in like THEO,
like this whole little range is influenced by stuff I'm
seeing online. So of course my algorithm of what I'm
showing online is going to sometimes include stuff that is
made with my own songs, and that gets very infinity
mirror where you're watching content and it throws you your
(12:06):
own song reverbed slowed down and and and it's just
like bizarre. Is that, like, I mean, what do you
do with that? Like I'm curious, Like there's the whole
like content game right where it's like I don't know
if you're listed as being like the sound or whatever,
but is that good for you? If you like it?
So do you have to kind of like listen to
it like it or do you like just quickly move
(12:28):
past it? What's the right move there for you? Um?
I would say there's really no right move because, um,
you know, the kind of money that you get for
one little clip of your song used in a video
streamed once is just like it's not really It's not
(12:52):
like I would be generating revenue more or less by
like watching my own videos. Right, You're not just sitting
there all day listening to that unrepeat And even if
you did, I mean, that gets very like snaking in
its own tail. That that's just not a territory. But
also I don't want to say, like I never want
to see content like this because I maybe I do
(13:13):
want to hear other musicians and does the how do
I tell the app that that's me and that's why
I don't want to see it? Right? Yeah, you would
think maybe at some point that they would be able
to give artists and control like hey, that's me, Like
that's me control or something. I mean, I don't know
how too much of TikTok is thinking about it, but
(13:34):
you know, they have other problems. I'm sure. The other
thing that that happens is that you're in like conversation
with like the people who are listening to and reusing
your music in a way that I find and listen again,
I'm very old, but I find interesting and unusual and
perhaps daunting, like I watched a handful of videos of yours. One.
(13:54):
You're responding to people who are using your music in
a way that I think, I don't say, like you
didn't like, but like definitely using it in a way
that you know elicited the response from you. And then
people are like kind of like questioning like your lyrics
and stuff, and you're responding to them directly like does
that feel like a necessary evil? Like if you're going
to be doing this stuff on TikTok Um. I guess so.
(14:19):
I mean, so I haven't been like super involved in
TikTok and like, oh man, probably like the last year,
like I really came on the scene, got really invested,
found some support, which is great. But then it got
to a point, like when I was starting to think
(14:40):
about putting hazards out. I think was the time period
where I'm like getting an arguments about discourse that I
just know nothing about, and that was the point where
I was like, I'm out of here. Man, I'm not
an expert on any of these topics. There's no reason
I would have meaningful insight here. I saw you responding
to like people questioning the lyrics of a lot of
(15:01):
true crime, which is, you know, you talk about Ted
Bunny being white or whatever. People are like I guess
taking taking issue with like I wasn't even sure like
what the issue was, like because you, like, I think
Ted Bunny's whiteness is like pretty important and like the
world of like what Ted Bundy did, but it is
an unusual thing to like to be kind of like
questioned in such a infantestimal way about the work, like
(15:25):
was it just like an unsustainable sort of conversation to
have with people? Okay, well, first of all, yes, it
was unsustainable for me. Um. I think there are some
people who are willing to have that be the work
that they do and they find meaning in it, but
that is just not I don't enjoy getting involved in
like arguments online. I like a good argument, to be clear,
(15:49):
Like I think it's fun to like hash out the
details of these scenarios and like, you know what am
I saying with this song? Like what does it really mean?
But it's just not feasible to like, I don't know,
I don't know. The thing that was interesting to me
about that situation, though, the like a lot of true
crime situation is that people take I shouldn't even say this,
(16:12):
but it was beginning to happen that people were taking
my art and the art of other people that I
was like kind of keeping an eye on at face value.
So if you're writing a song and you say I
listened to a lot of true crime, I do. Whatever
these things are, you have people who are taking that
the way you would take a primary source. Because the
(16:33):
academic integrity of social media is like very up in
the air. We have no way to cite a lot
of these things meaningfully. Like I did a paper recently
where I was citing a lot of online content and
it's like, oh, like the institutions that have to do
with knowledge have not caught up to how we legitimize
any of this, and so you have these weird situations
where it's like you're saying something in a song and
(16:55):
people are treating it like you're saying that as a statement,
and it's like, well, no, because part of what's cool
about songs is that they don't have to be from
your specific intellectual or experiential perspective, you know what I mean.
So it's like, why am I defending a character? A
song could be a story, right, Like it often is
right that you're telling. I mean, it's interesting you're sort
(17:15):
of talking about in some way context collapse, which is huge,
Like I think like you talking to people about like
them calling out that you're saying Ted Bundy's white, and
that's there's some issue with that or something feels like
a contextual collapse in some way where it's like if
you take the song and its totality to your point
as a story that you're telling, you would understand it
(17:37):
better in that context, but you don't have that, you know,
in the format of TikTok, Like there's no like, I know,
cliffs notes or whatever for what you're doing. Right, Yeah,
I guess that is a lack of context. I guess
for me, I found myself arguing in favor of the
point that I was trying to make, and I was
(18:00):
trying to make a point. It's not that that wasn't true,
Like I did have the points that I set out
to explore. And this is hard too, because when you're
reading the comments, that comes at you like a monolith,
but what's actually happening is, of course a wide variety
of perspectives, some of which have nothing to do with
each other, and so it's hard to discern. But like
(18:21):
in hindsight, it's like there were people who were saying, like,
I don't like your tone in this song because you
sound like bitchy. And then there were some people saying like,
I don't like this tone in your song. It's unrelated
to the rest of this stuff. And then there's a
significant chunk of people who are like, I don't like
that you are disrespecting the intelligence of serial killers. That
I idolized, and it's like, so these are three extremely
(18:42):
different points that I like, that is a wide range,
it's a wide right, and it's like it's I should specify.
I don't think that most of the people who were like,
what do you mean to buy the genius? Like they
thought that the point I was making is like he's
sucks because he murders, And they were coming back with like,
(19:02):
you can be smart and murder. Oh my god, No,
I mean yes, but it was actually happening was a
totally different argument. No, But but like, are there is
that is that a group of people who are like,
you need to respect Ted Bundy because like, I don't
think that opinion is really super valid. No, No, So
this is actually much more interesting because this is this
is the misunderstanding, right, we think there are people who
(19:25):
are like, you need to respect Ted Bundy, But what's
actually happening is that those are people who are upset
that you would question the mechanisms by which we categorize
certain people as smart. One of the criticisms being why
are you categorizing this person is smart if what they're
proficient at is murdering girls? And that's the real conversation,
(19:48):
it's like, you know, for me, yes, for me absolutely.
First off, that's super interesting and like a level of
discourse on this particular topic that I have not engaged with,
which is like, you know, honestly kind of surprising because
I've been pretty online for most of my adult life.
But like, what's really interesting on top a layer on
(20:10):
top of all this is like this is just people
who are like nitpicking your art basically right, literally, like
you know, the everyone's a critic thing is on full
display in this situation where there is a subset of
people who can find like pretty much any lyric problematic
for them for for a different reason, which is, you know,
(20:32):
it seems daunting, Like I don't know that that artists
at any other period in the world had to experience
such a specific taking apart or picking a part of
their of their art, writer of their craft, Like that
seems deranged. Yeah, well yeah, and that is part of
why I had to kind of take a step back, because,
as you can tell, the topics that I'm interested in
(20:54):
on this level, I can like totally rant about I
enjoy this, Like, well, why do you want them to
be smart? It's because you care about smartness, and that's
what we're I'm actually talking about, Like, let's get into it,
let's get academic with it, let's get weird. But like
at the end of the day, it's like what I
should have said was this is a story and a song,
And I don't understand why you're trying to drag me
into like a like a debate about the truth of
(21:20):
something that is a work of fiction, you know, right,
I mean, I think the level that you're on in
the argument of this conversation about like why somebody wants
(21:42):
somebody to be represented as smart or not smart based
on like some quality that they have, which is, by
the way, super fucking out there. Like I mean, most
people will not entertain such a conversation, but certainly online
there is a deep pool of people who want to
talk about that kind of off. I mean, it's an
interesting argument, but like, can you have that argument at
(22:04):
scale on TikTok? You know what I mean? Like is
that the environment? Well, you know, maybe for somebody, as
it turns out, not for me. Um, because I enjoy
these topics, but it's just not a good format for them.
I don't think you have a song called rat what
you mentioned, which I now own the shirt, the Rat shirt,
(22:25):
because I was like, that's a pretty good design and
I need more black shirts and I love supporting artists.
It's a good shirt, by the way, It's like a
good fit, like high quality. But that song is like
a lot about Elon Musk from what I can tell,
I'm not I'm not an expert. Actually I'm kind of
an expert on that topic. I mean, the song is
a lot about Elon Musk and people like Elon Muskin.
(22:46):
Also sort of like people who like Elon Musk, and
you are highly fucking argumentative in that, like it's not
a tame opinion. You're not like, oh, I have a
kind of middle of the road take on Elon Musk.
Like talk about Rat for a second, talk about the song,
and also for people who haven't heard it, maybe explain
the concept of it. Yeah, so let's see what to
(23:09):
say about Rat. I wrote Rat pretty late in the game.
With regard to the rest of the songs on Public
void Um, feel Better was old and I spruced it
up a little to put it with the others. But
most of the others I had been working on kind
of the summer before I released the whole album. Rat
(23:31):
was one of those ones where you start typing into
the notes app and you're like, that kind of goes together. Actually,
this is all tied to the same idea now that
I think about it, And then you have a song
and I threw it together. I didn't spend a ton
of time making it be totally perfect, like I often
like to nitpick with my songs and with my production,
(23:51):
and in this one I didn't, And I tacked it
onto the end of the album because I was like,
this is not going to be to most people's taste.
This is a weird one that I've made. I will
hide it at the end where all the bad songs go,
and then nobody will hear it. Yeah, this is classic. Yeah.
What was the v H one show where they would
like document some hit song or whatever, And on every
(24:12):
one of those there was either one of two takes
on the song that became the huge hit, which was
either I heard this and I thought it was complete
ship or I heard this and I knew it was
going to be a hit. When you're so close to it,
you can't really tell which way it's going to break,
you know, all right, so you stick it at the
end of the record. Yeah, I stick it at the
end of the record, and I'm like, I will also say, like,
(24:36):
I was surprised on tour. I thought that a lot
of the sentiments I had were very West Coast because
I have a lot of friends from Silicon Valley adjacent,
and then I have a lot of friends from like Seattle,
Amazon Territory adjacent, and like, so this is something we
talked about a lot. Is like why is it fucking like,
like why why always you think things are cool and
(24:58):
you want there to be robe loots and they're always
mean and I don't understand and that sucks. Like that's
what it's about. It's about loss of faith. It's about
I like had stars in my eyes and I thought
all these things were so cool and all these people
were my heroes, and you grow up and you're like, fuck,
(25:21):
I didn't want that to happen. So wait a second.
You grew up in in like around Silicone Valley or
near Silicone Valley, is that correct? But driving distance? Yeah,
so so when you were growing up and this is
fascinating because I grew up in Pittsburgh, which is where
nothing happens for the most part, except the Steelers, And
I don't like sports, so it's a problem. But when
(25:42):
you were like growing up there, like people like Steve
Jobs and these other people who were sort of like
the like leaders of sort of technology culture kids there
or whatever, We're like, these people are cool. Was that
like a thing? I mean, yeah, yeah, at least around me.
And also this might have to do with the age
group that is the first age group to kind of
(26:03):
like join the learning curve of iPhones and like smartphones.
But I mean, because people forget that all these things
are so into your psychology as a child too, Like
it's technology, it's not just about like and then the
country did this, and then the country did that. It's
like you're fond memories of being loved and being excited
(26:24):
about things. Is there a phone in them? What was
it like? Like these things are so deep to your
core memories. So yeah, and I would say that, like
I don't know, Yes, there's a lot of love for technology.
And I was so surprised I played chose to find
that kids in places that were not Seattle specifically or
Silicon Valley specifically knew all the words too. And we're
(26:47):
just as feisty and I was like, oh, okay, interesting.
I think there's something universal about the idea that those
people are going to take us places we haven't gone before,
and that there is something to cheer. I mean, I
do want to unpack RAT a little bit more. But
like talking about Elon Musk, which is he has been
a topic on this show for several episodes. I can
(27:09):
tell you because it's like, here's a guy who a
few years ago I would have been like, let me
ask him the most interesting question I can think of
because they'll have the most interesting answer. And like I,
I as well as anybody else, was like, this guy's
really fucking interesting and smart. And now I'm like, whoa,
this person is a piece of ship who sucks. Like
that's really weird. So I think I understand it, probably
(27:32):
from a different perspective, but like I can't imagine what
it was like growing up around it, because like it's
so easy to be influenced by that when you're younger, right,
like to have it surround you and to be influenced
by it. Yeah, I think I think there's something to that.
I mean, I guess I will just say, like that's
part of why RAT is the way that it is.
I think that there's a lot of talks about like
(27:56):
I don't know Elon Us specifically, but like the Elon
Musk type that are like, you know, I have the
moral high ground and this is what he's doing wrong,
or like, you know, actually I was his like I
like worked for his company and whatever, and this is
like my personal intel experience, Like I wanted rat not
to be that. I didn't want it to be like
these are my well thought out criticisms of how you're
(28:17):
choosing to run your company. I wanted it to be
like you hurt my feelings. I liked you, and you
made me sad. You know, it's a break up host.
It's like literally you say, like you broke my heart
right or whatever like that you're saying, like I thought
you were going to be this great thing and it
turns out like you're sort of trash and you're bad
for humanity. So was that a revelation for you at
(28:39):
some point? Like was that a thing that that happened
in your life? Um? I think it happens over the
course of years in most people's lives. I think it's
very normal to have at least a few good dramatic
breaks in your worldview between the age of like ten
(29:01):
and twenty one, and in our case, it's going to
have to do with technology where your world is shattering. Yeah,
and it's like part of it, you know. I wouldn't
say that there was like a specific instance. It's not
like I was like standing in the street in San
Jose watching Tesla's like fighting, like no, like just it's
(29:24):
just a single tear streaming down your face as you Yeah,
you're like I did. I thought this was gonna be
a better car or something, and now I'm yeah, No, No,
I just think that it's you know, a subtle thing,
more subtle, more long term. Yeah, but I think it
speaks to like the whole world that we occupy right now,
right Like, I think it became very popular. I feel
(29:45):
like you can find it in lots of different places,
but it is definitely something that you see on TikTok
on other social networks. Ironically, it's not ironic at all.
It's all connected. No, but it's like the disillusionment with
like technology and where it was going to take and
who was going to lead it. I feel like, God,
that's like so universal now. I mean I think you
were ahead of the curve to some degree on the
(30:07):
severity of how bad the disappointment was going to be. Right,
like that song you did like two years ago or something, Yeah,
I did do it two years ago, and I think
an important part of it like this, for me, this
is the key difference. Why can't you have these complex,
nuanced discussions about fact in the same medium where you're
(30:27):
doing the art Because the song isn't saying, it's not prescriptive.
It's not like this is what we should do. The
song is ouch, it's sad. I feel bad and I
still want to go to space, but I don't want
it to be nasty, like it's like you know, yeah,
And I think it's really important for people to get
(30:47):
in touch with that feeling first before all this stuff
about like where do we go, what do we do,
how do we make it better? Who's to blame? It's
important to just take a second and be like, I
am never going to be somebody who doesn't think that
this tech stuff is cool. That's I'm never getting out
of that. I'm always going to be impressed. I'm always
going to love these advancements, and it's gonna be bitter sweet, yeah, right,
(31:13):
sort of talking about this um lack of space for
this sort of art or the emotion of it to
breathe like, I mean, it's funny because I know you
did like a Genius video, and Genius is a really
good example of this, where literally, line by line, people
will go like, well, let me explain what this thing means.
And I think I'm not arguing that any art like
needs to exist like this, but I think art in
(31:34):
some way music in some way in previous generations, where
there wasn't constant content and discourse produced about an individual
piece of art, you can have a personal take on
it that was not informed by or reflected by some
other person's like piece of discourse about it. And now,
I mean, this is sort of like what I thought
(31:55):
was so interesting about the TikTok stuff that I saw
from you. It was literally a line from a song
had to be discussed because someone didn't get it. And
it wasn't like they didn't get it personally and they
had to think about it. It was like they didn't
get it. And now their lack of getting it or
understanding it has become a topic of conversation that the
artists themselves must respond to, which feels like, I don't know,
(32:19):
like could be a creativity prison in some way, you know. Yeah,
I think it interrupts the process of writing music. Yeah,
if you're not careful. I mean it's not like it's
a total barrier, but it has to be navigated one
way or another. Yeah, but you're like kind of not
online very much, like from what I can tell, Yeah,
I'm really not. Yeah. No, I mean I started following
you a bunch of different things, and frankly it's even
(32:42):
hard to like find like I'm like, is this is
this her account? Like I don't know, you know, it's
sort of vague. Have you basically disengaged from like that conversation? Um,
I have not been on TikTok in a really long time.
I'm still on Instagram quite a bit. I don't post
a lot, but I'm looking at stuff a lot. Um. Yeah,
(33:04):
like a creep on Instagram. Okay, good to know. Yeah,
I totally alert or on Instagram and I will like
look through interactions with my content. But I also, I mean,
I have a other fake Instagram for sure that I'll
just go through and use, Like I don't it's not
the public one. But I'm engaged all the time of Instagram,
(33:26):
I believe is what they're calling it these days. Um,
but TikTok, Like, was there some specific moment with TikTok
where you're like, no, I got I can't do this.
I think I stuck it out for a few waves
of trolls, But one wave of trolls got to a
point where I was like, this is just stupid. I'm
choosing actively to open my phone every day and allow
(33:51):
not even the opinions, but just like the words, the loose,
unmitigated words of strangers to affect the degree to which
I can make this content being the art, not not
the videos, to be clear, but like it's like it
became a point where instead of being like, no, it's
my duty to look at everything and like take all
(34:13):
these criticisms to heart, I hit a point where I
was like, I am choosing to be less proficient at
the thing that I now do. I should stop making
that choice. I should close my phone and go outside. Yeah,
but that's kind of fucking crazy when you think about it,
because it's like you had this platform, you were using
this platform in a way that was like you can
(34:34):
make an argument. It's super fucking positive that you were
able to put music on it as far as I know,
like you didn't have like a huge record deal or something.
You weren't like a famous person previously. You're like a
human being on TikTok putting music on it, and that
it struck a chord. No pun intended, though I do
apologize for saying that, um, it struck some chord with people,
(34:54):
and then it became a thing. And then immediately or
not immediately, but pretty shortly thereafter, that environment became so
upsetting or toxic for you. I mean, I don't want
to use the word toxic. I think it gets overused,
but like it became a not good environment from what
I when I'm hearing, and you basically disengage with it,
which seems like a real failure of the platform in
(35:15):
some way, right like or maybe it's a failure of humanity.
I don't know, I don't know. I mean it depends
if you think about what TikTok wants, like as its
own entity, but not not the people, but the TikTok.
I feel like what it wants is growth. It wants
there to be this constant new content, this constant new material.
(35:35):
And I got to a point where it's like, well,
maybe that's not a service that I wish to engage
with anymore right now. I mean, if I'm not going
to be this rapid overturned stuff, if I'm not going
to constantly be like pushing the button creating drama for
good or for evil, and if I'm not really a
social media person and I'm instead a music person who
(35:56):
is for the time being using this platform because it
is fun, then when it stops being fun, when it
stops being productive, it got to be like a little
bit what am I doing here? Right? So yeah, I
don't know if that's a failure, that might just be
the design. Well no, but it's fascinating. I mean, you
are I mean, I don't know how old you are,
but I guess you and I are probably twenty years
apart in age. And like I feel like that's a
(36:19):
realization that to me feels like a because I'm maybe rude,
I don't like an old person realization where I feel
the same way like I spent like a lot of
my career, I mean in a very different way, but
like building you know, a kind of like conversation on
these like platforms where I mean Twitter is a good
example of all this ship that's going on Twitter right now.
It's like, you know, I spent like a lot of
(36:40):
my career building this like conversation with people, and now
I'm like, yeah, like that doesn't feel like healthier good
or productive for me personally, and and so I'm sort
of like I want to step back from it. But
like your person who presumably was raised on this, like
I mean, like you said, like my phone was a
part of every you know, sort of early memory or
sort of important memory when you were younger. So like,
(37:02):
it's weird that that both of us would arrive at
such a thing. I'm not I'm not saying it's the
same experience, but but it does say something I think
about the the failings of this stuff, like this particular
thing about you not being on TikTok and not engaging
with that stuff I was not planning on talking about
because I kind of didn't perceive it because when you're
not there, you're not there, right, It's not like you
(37:24):
put up a sign and you're like, oh, I'm no
longer on TikTok. But this is the other thing I
want to talk to you about, which is like you
haven't put out a lot of new music recently as
far as I know, So what's the next thing? Like
where do you go from here? Basically? Wow? Okay, where
to start with all of that? Let's um first of all,
real quick, I will just say I stocked you back
(37:47):
a little bit, just in so far as I listened
to the other episodes, And I think it's really interesting
that the other people that you've interviewed, some of them
are like kind of going through the same thing, but
they're going through with Twitter. And it's like for me
to watch from the sideline. I know really got into Twitter.
It was a little early for me and then a
little late for me, and it just never hits. So
to watch people be so dismayed at like the state
(38:09):
of Twitter right now is really fascinating as someone who
has no personal staking when we or the other really,
oh my god, you're so lucky. I mean, you're just
so lucky. Like I can't even it's the worst, shittiest
social network that sucked as from the beginning, and like
to have any allegiance to it, no, I mean it's
like truly was never good. And I'm so jealous of
(38:29):
anybody who was like yeah, I just that's not from me.
That's so it's funky, and I don't know all these things,
all these apps or whatever. It's like, yeah, it's super fun.
It's great to be on it. But the part that
makes it good is that it's social. It's the other people.
It's not that the computer has like the juice in
(38:51):
there that you want. It's like, actually the fact that
there's somebody, which for me made it easier to kind
of get off the Internet for a while. Um anyway,
so then I question of what am I doing now?
You're not going to go back to TikTok, right, like
you're not like I'm back. I would be. I would
be open to it, but I'm not going to do
it just because I don't know how to stop, you know,
(39:12):
right right, that's healthy. I would maybe in the future
do some more coordinated posting. I really enjoyed when I
used to go through my like song making production process.
I thought that was a fun thing to do into showcase.
So I might try to do some of those ones again,
just like little instructional videos. Well well let me not
not to interrupt, but like it, it becomes different right
(39:33):
when you are when you've got people now who are
following you, and I don't know what you're following is
like on TikTok, but people know who you are. There's
some segment of the audience there. It seems like some
of the original stuff on TikTok was like you were
just doing stuff because it was like you're experimenting and
trying things out and there was no pressure and no expectation.
But it's different when you're like everything you do or
or things that you do will be immediately sort of
(39:55):
judged or commented on or you know, share it or
whatever more widely. So it changes it, right, Yeah, it
does change it. Um, And I think you have to
decide if you're doing things to generate popularity or if
you're doing it kind of um regardless of that, and
both are fine, but you have to pick before you
do the thing because they're they're different. Okay, so now
(40:17):
what what are you What are you doing? Like are
you making more music? When like this is like by
the classic closure on a podcast like pertain about like
crazy shit like online discourse And now we're like I'm like, okay,
so when's the new album drop or whatever? But no,
I am curious, like are you working at in music?
Are you going to do a new record? Like what
is the future for you? Like, what do you thinking
(40:39):
about working on? Excited about? There's new music and there's
about an EP or album's worth that is kind of
in my style normally. And then what I really want
to do, and I've done this for a couple of them,
I think one or two is I want to do
another really small EP that's just a few, like fully
(41:02):
orchestral sounding versions of these songs that people would already know,
because I think that's fun. And I did it for
time in my life, which isn't a secret because I
already played the orchestral version on tour. But that one
was one that I did way back and it had
no words, and it was the backtrack for like video
I made. And then I went back and just used
(41:24):
the MIDI and like changed all the sounds and messed
with it and tinkered and tinkered and tinkered and made
words and now it's going to be like this insane
like string heavy orchestra sound. So I wanted to do
that with um with that song, and then I also
want to do it with Gross, which is another song
that people only know since I've played it on tour,
but it's a very like techy almost eighties with the strings,
(41:47):
but like a very beat boot song. And then the
new I want to do an orchestral version of that sometime.
But that's all just about grouping them. The short answer is, yes,
there will be a new album. Right. Are you touring
currently right now? Or you in between stuff? In between stuff,
but you can go and like you're playing like shows
with like a ton of people there right, I mean
(42:08):
they're like packed hous. I mean, I've seen some video
from it, but you've got fans who are going to
come out and like see that, which must be also surreal,
I guess, because you know it's like you've got online
people and then they don't seem real but they are
actually real. Yeah. I think there were a few milestones
like that that me and my team were like things
(42:32):
where it's like you can't guess how it's going to
go until it goes. And one of those was can
she make it through a show live? Which had not
been attempted before I started doing that, And then it
was interesting yeah, and then it was will people actually
show up in real life versus an internet thing? And
both of those, we were like pleasantly surprised. I've also
(42:54):
been shocked and surprised by the fact that, like you
could do things on the Internet and then go, oh,
I'm going to be here, I'm doing this, and then
people will just like show up and there's like human
beings who you're like, you're this avatar but now you're
a real person. But I mean, I've seen some videos
of you know, you're playing rooms full of people like
singing the lyrics, like singing along with the lyricy of
(43:15):
your songs, which is I mean, kind of incredible no
matter who you are. But do you like Tori? Do
you like that? I did like that. I do. I
do like playing live, which I did not expect to. Um.
I thought that it was going to not be my
thing because, as you can probably tell, as a producer
(43:36):
type yourself, like, I very much enjoy the producer angle,
and I like to just sit on my little computer
and tinker and listen to the same three seconds again
and again for like four consecutive hours until I'm insane.
And I did not expect to enjoy the performance aspect,
but I did. I thought it was very fun. People
have always been very nice. So I think I've kept
(43:56):
you on this long enough. I just want to say,
like I found this conversation to be complete, fascinating and
so surprising, like we went to places that I did
not expect, and I still have, frankly, many more questions.
So when you are ready, when you really are releasing
new music and going out on tour again, like you
have to come back. And we have talked more about
not only your music, which I truly do love, but
(44:18):
also whether you're back on TikTok, which to me is
going to be a very important topic to to to revisit.
So anyhow, thank you so much for doing this. I
really appreciate and I really enjoyed the conversation. Thank you
very much for having me. I will be happy to
come back sometime in the name of public good. They
taught me everything just like a daddy should. And you
were beautiful and vulnerable and power and success. God damn,
(44:39):
I felt for you. You are flamed the words, your
tunnels and your tech. I studied code because I wanted
to do something great like you. And the real tragedy
is half of it was true. But we've been fucking
being were elatest whereas flawed as any church in this
boom red West Coast Dogma has a higher fucking that word.
I've been the apple because I trusted you. It's haste
like Thomas mall lose her for post and insane and
(45:02):
I hope somedays Salmer's rides are fucking trained. Well, that
was a great conversation. I knew I say that a lot.
I'm like, that was great, but this one. All the
other ones I was lying, and this one I really
mean that this is true. It's fascinating just to see
(45:24):
a totally different perspective on being online. And I love
the fact that, you know, she basically was like people
who are on Twitter are sad and horrible and losers
and I hate them. No, she didn't say that, but
but it interest you see, like if your entire worldview
isn't like you know, I'm like a journalist who's been
on Twitter from the get go, so I'm like, oh,
that's you know, very important, or everybody's on it. He's
(45:45):
talking about It's like, yeah, there's just like it doesn't
matter to a lot of people, which is I think
what we all know and believe. But but to to
see how easily the experience. The bad experiences of any
social network are mirrored on even the newest social network
that everybody loves, which is TikTok. I guess, be real,
eventually somebody will learn how to harass and be real
that that will be that'll be that. But you know,
(46:07):
it's just fascinating to see the gap in experience in
an age and all that, but then the same sort
of outcome through social media. And I would say, you know,
it's interesting to me to hear an artist's experience because
I think it's healthy in a way to go, wait
(46:29):
a second, Like I'm not here for to interact with
people on social media. I'm here to make something. And
if like this is a bad place to make it,
or it's unwelcoming or it is unsustainable in some way,
then like maybe I just shouldn't be making it here
or worrying about like the discourse here. And I think
that's important. I think it's a sign of of things
to come. I think we've talked a lot on the
show about this, but I feel like there is a
(46:53):
I don't want to call it a movement, but I
think there is a change in like humanity happening. There
is some part of us that's kind of going, wait,
I don't have to be here. I don't have to
do this. I don't have to respond to the things
that I think or thought I had to respond to.
I don't have to be the person that these services
tell me I should be. It's a profoundly important step
(47:14):
in the evolution of how we deal with each other
in a like online society. More importantly than anything else
that we talked about is that she's going to be
making some new music, and I'm gonna be able to
download and like some new tunes on the streaming service
of my choice. I assume it's very hard for me
to get excited about new music. I feel like I've
(47:35):
listened to a lot of music in my life, and
making music forced me to listen, you know, I forced
myself to listen to a lot of stuff both weird
and also very popular, and so it's hard. I have like,
very um, what is the fifty Shades of Gray meme?
He's like, I have very unconventional desires or something like.
I feel like this part of me that is like
(47:57):
I have very unconventional desires when it comes to music. Again,
then there's part of me that's like I have extremely
conventional desires, right like sort of high and low. So
I don't find myself getting hooked by a particular artist
very often, like I like one thing and then go
the rest of their stuff is okay, Or there's a
couple of tracks there that I'm interested in, but it
doesn't really do it for me. So here's something like
(48:17):
one offs like DJ Seinfeld, Godford, I mentioned Fred again,
Fred Again. I definitely like a little bit more of
Salt s A U l T. This is a band,
big deal, Friars Art school girlfriend Barbara and Ernie, Big Thief,
(48:39):
Girl in Red. I love War Paint War Pain has
become a big favorite this year. Who Are Stranger? A
lot of Polital record, which is like a Billy Joel record,
but it's like I don't know, well, awkward one
Hey, and welcome to What Future. I am your host,
Joshua Sapolski, and today I'm very excited because we have Frankly,
an unusual guest for the show at least thus far,
a bona fide songwriter, musician, producer who I am very
into at the moment. A woman named Penelope Scott. I
bought on Vinyl. I bought a T shirt of hers.
(00:38):
I mean, I became a complete fanboy over over this music.
And what I didn't know and what you wouldn't know,
of course if you listen to this or you heard
it on Spotify, is she became well known. And the
only reason that these records exist at all, and that
she's touring and that you know she's got millions of
plays on these different services and stuff, is because she
(00:59):
had song that got popular on TikTok. And that is
a that's a weird path of like I know that
it exists in lots of different ways for lots of
different people, but like when you hear about who the
TikTok influence are, actually this is very related to the
some of the stuff that Taylor and I were talking
about last week. When you hear about like the influencer thing.
It's usually like these like girls who do dances or
(01:19):
like funny like comedians doing things, or like weird stunt
videos or whatever, and it turns out there's like actually
really active world of music happening there, and like the
music is just super interesting and unusually produced and unusually
written and combines lots of different genres that I feel
like shouldn't go together but weirdly do. So we got
(01:41):
Penelope to come on the podcast and talk about hopefully
some of this stuff and maybe some other things, and
to be honest, as a huge fanboy of her music
and songwriting, I'm just sort of curious about when the
album's gonna drop, sort of selfishly. So here is singer, songwriter,
producer Penelopes got Penelope, thank you for being here. First off,
(02:18):
this is very exciting. I'm a huge fan, which sounds like, frankly,
like a weird thing to say to anybody, but I
was telling the story just you know, before you got
on that I discovered your music in a sort of
weird roundabout way, which wells probably not that round about,
but I it's like one of your songs was on
a random Spotify playlist. I was listening to and I
(02:38):
heard it and I was like, this is what is this?
At first, I was like what is this? Because frankly,
what you make is so distinct that my brain like
sort of short circuit. And I was like, I've done
maybe I hate that. I might hate this right at first,
And then I took a second because I have a
very immediately critical reaction to many things in life, and
so I was like, let me just let let me
let the sink in. And I was like, well, no, wait,
(03:00):
actually this is really good. And so I liked it,
as one does on Spotify, and then I forgot all
about that that the song existed. Just feel better. By
the way, his the name of the song. Maybe you've
heard of it. It's one that you did. Yeah. Anyhow,
then I came back to it many months later because
I remember that it existed. I went, and then I
went and I listened to I think like most of
(03:22):
or maybe everything that I could find of yours on
the internet. And it's really really good and interesting and weird.
And um, I used to produce music, so you know,
to me, it's like the songs are really interesting and
weird and good, but also the production is very like
unusual and surprising and exciting to listen to. Let me
(03:43):
ask you, do you produce your own stuff? Is it
all you? Yeah? Well, first of all, thank you, I
appreciate that, and yeah, I do produce all my own
music so far. Now now I'm starting to like actually
be willing to accept help from other people. But yes, Um,
the Drunkyard two was like completely voice memo material, so
(04:05):
there was no production, and then Public Void I produced it.
I mean Junkyard too. It's interesting you say voice memos
because to me it has because I'm extremely old and
near death, it has a quality of like a four
track or like you know, like Elliott Smith, like demos
or whatever, like in the sense that the distance between
like the stuff that you did on on that record
and what I think of as classic like demo sounding
(04:28):
or indie sounding stuff. Is it actually you recorded into
voice memos? Yeah, most of them were recorded in the
voice memo app on my iPhone. Yeah. Basically what happened
is that I have been playing music for a while
and I would record them sometimes just to have them
and to be able to listen to them later and
hear the songs. And then um, when a couple of
songs started to become popular online. I just went back
(04:48):
for the best of those and put them all together
and released that. Oh I see like a splice of
all those different ones. I think the production on your
stuff is so weird and interesting and like you and
I probably could just have a really nerdy conversation about this.
But first off, like for me, like you, like ten
years ago, like I was like obsessed with like chip
tune ship like or maybe even earlier than that. It's
(05:10):
funny because when I hear it now, I'm usually like, god, no,
like it's so overused and so played out, and like
everybody's just like doing the same thing. And yet like
when I hear it, like whatever the kind of chip
tuning stuff in your music that I've heard, I'm like,
oh god, that sounds so fresh and interesting original. I
have to say, like it's very impressive, But the way
you blend it with other it's such an unexpected way
(05:31):
of mixing sounds together. By the way, this is like
totally we don't have to talk about this, but I
have all these questions, like like I wanted to like
how you actually like what are you producing in Like
what do you like tracking um pro tools really Yeah,
So I learned pro Tools. I had a little bit
of help, but a lot of it was just me
beating my head against the wall and it it's it's gnarly,
(05:54):
but it's fun and it's crazy pro Tools. Nobody even
talks about pro tools anymore. It's like for such a
long time it was the de facto like pro studio situation,
and then everybody just kind of like shifted to weird
ship like and everybody's like, oh, I just use logic
or whatever because I'm only doing it on a laptop.
So it's fascinating that anybody still uses pro tools. In
my opinion, I'm just like blown away by it. It's wild.
(06:16):
Pro Tools is like the badass one that I'm like
trying to get more proficient at. And then the back
tracks for a bunch of the songs in public Void
was was Limbs, which I don't know how adults say it,
but we always have Limbs and it's just like l
m MS version one point two point one. It's a
free software and we downloaded it. This is kind of fun.
(06:39):
So I was in a music and technology class just
pre pandemic, and then everything went on zoom, and so
half the kids aren't on campus and half the kids are,
so they have to come up with a way to
still be teaching the software when half the kids don't
have access to the software. So they had us download
new free worse software that everyone could use instead of
(07:01):
using the university software. Well it makes sense kind of, yeah,
And it's like you can't do a lot of the
stuff you can do with other things because it's like
a free version of it. So you just go through
and one by one click where the notes are supposed
to be and just compose and just map them on
from scratch, and you have your little drum loop and
you have your little automation track. And that's what like
(07:22):
five of the songs from Public Void was originally made in.
But then I took that backtrack and put it into proachals.
So I have downloaded so many random, weird like open
source like audio apps. So I totally understand this. But
and yeah, this is fascinating. We can have about this
for a long time. But when I knew that you
were going to come on the show, I started to
do some like you know, non stalker but like deep research,
(07:45):
at least as deep as I could get because I'm
also very lazy, and so what I did not realize
and sort of didn't realize at first, and I listen
to a bunch of your stuff and it did not
occur to me at all, Like you've got a lot
of plays on Spotify and like you've got a bunch
of records there, you know, albums whatever, ep whatever people
call them these days, And nothing seemed unusual about that
to me. And then like as I kind of dug
(08:06):
into it, like you you became known for your music,
like through what TikTok? Is that where this started? Yeah,
I would say that's where it started. And it seems
like fairly organically, like you were just putting music on there,
Like I mean, I'm curious like if it was your
goal or not for people to like pay attention to
and share that stuff widely, but like you were just
like putting ideas on TikTok? Is that is that right? Yeah?
(08:28):
I mean, okay, I had had a band camp for
a while where I was just storing the music projects.
And then I would say, I don't even know when
this happened, probably like download TikTok and I'm like these
are fun I like these videos, and then I start
seeing my friends post and I'm like, I should post
(08:49):
some videos. What am I good at? Well, I'm good
at dicking around in my dorm room and I'm also
good at playing music, so I'll combine those two things.
And then when the music videos started doing well, I
had to like real quick takedown all the stuff that
like was you did not like match the quality. Yeah,
the stuff that was just like my idiot friends, like
cart wheeling down the hall. I had to be like,
(09:11):
maybe we don't broadcast this any See what you're saying
is like there could have been another version of this
where you got really popular for cart wheeling down a
hall or something. Yeah, yeah, there definitely was another version
which would have been interesting, but no, the music thing
ended up being the thing, and I went with it.
I mean, what's the first thing that you that you
posted that I felt like it took on something, you know,
(09:33):
beyond like sort of your like friends reach or whatever. Um.
It was born to run and it was sweet Hibiscus
Tea and I don't remember which got traction first, but
both of them got popular towards the end of the
school year. So it would have been like what like
May August or May. No, that's not right, that's not
right at all. I'm I'm sorry. This is pandemic memory,
(09:55):
so I'm totally blurring all the timeline. But yeah, basically
towards the end of the year is that, um god,
I don't even know, do you know? You know? I don't,
I don't know, I don't don't. I want to say
public void you release in so right, I could be
wrong about that, but sure, Like I'm not sure it's okay.
(10:18):
It's been a fucked up couple of years. I think
we're all I think we're all confused about what's been happening.
But let's just say from the last in the last
couple of years, you've been doing a lot of this.
But like what was interesting to me is, and I
did not even take into account at all, is that
the kind of core the source of this is TikTok.
I mean, maybe there's other places that I don't know about,
like you mentioned band camp, but like on TikTok as
(10:39):
I kind of delved into your stuff there and then
like you're the community, like not only did these songs
sort of take on a life of their own, which
I mean, I'm kind of curious, Like there's all these
different versions of your songs, like they're sped up or
they're slowed down, or they're like weirdly remixed or whatever.
What is that like, Like, what's the experience of just
having that stuff kind of spit back got you in
(11:00):
a in a different form. Yeah, it's definitely interesting. There's
two aspects to this, right. There's like the audio aspect,
where it's like it's always surreal to see your own
content reappear on someone else's account in any way, and like,
especially if you're on YouTube and it's like, you know,
feel better for four hours looped reverb added like rat
but you're in the bathroom at a party. It's just
(11:22):
that is interesting. It's just like, yeah, I don't know
if RAT but you're in the bathroom of a party
specifically exists, but yes, that that genre, right, It's like
this thing a lot, but slightly tweaked in some weird way. Yeah. Well,
the other aspect of it is just the fact that
(11:43):
the kind of music I was making in like THEO,
like this whole little range is influenced by stuff I'm
seeing online. So of course my algorithm of what I'm
showing online is going to sometimes include stuff that is
made with my own songs, and that gets very infinity
mirror where you're watching content and it throws you your
(12:06):
own song reverbed slowed down and and and it's just
like bizarre. Is that, like, I mean, what do you
do with that? Like I'm curious, Like there's the whole
like content game right where it's like I don't know
if you're listed as being like the sound or whatever,
but is that good for you? If you like it?
So do you have to kind of like listen to
it like it or do you like just quickly move
(12:28):
past it? What's the right move there for you? Um?
I would say there's really no right move because, um,
you know, the kind of money that you get for
one little clip of your song used in a video
streamed once is just like it's not really It's not
(12:52):
like I would be generating revenue more or less by
like watching my own videos. Right, You're not just sitting
there all day listening to that unrepeat And even if
you did, I mean, that gets very like snaking in
its own tail. That that's just not a territory. But
also I don't want to say, like I never want
to see content like this because I maybe I do
(13:13):
want to hear other musicians and does the how do
I tell the app that that's me and that's why
I don't want to see it? Right? Yeah, you would
think maybe at some point that they would be able
to give artists and control like hey, that's me, Like
that's me control or something. I mean, I don't know
how too much of TikTok is thinking about it, but
(13:34):
you know, they have other problems. I'm sure. The other
thing that that happens is that you're in like conversation
with like the people who are listening to and reusing
your music in a way that I find and listen again,
I'm very old, but I find interesting and unusual and
perhaps daunting, like I watched a handful of videos of yours. One.
(13:54):
You're responding to people who are using your music in
a way that I think, I don't say, like you
didn't like, but like definitely using it in a way
that you know elicited the response from you. And then
people are like kind of like questioning like your lyrics
and stuff, and you're responding to them directly like does
that feel like a necessary evil? Like if you're going
to be doing this stuff on TikTok Um. I guess so.
(14:19):
I mean, so I haven't been like super involved in
TikTok and like, oh man, probably like the last year,
like I really came on the scene, got really invested,
found some support, which is great. But then it got
to a point, like when I was starting to think
(14:40):
about putting hazards out. I think was the time period
where I'm like getting an arguments about discourse that I
just know nothing about, and that was the point where
I was like, I'm out of here. Man, I'm not
an expert on any of these topics. There's no reason
I would have meaningful insight here. I saw you responding
to like people questioning the lyrics of a lot of
(15:01):
true crime, which is, you know, you talk about Ted
Bunny being white or whatever. People are like I guess
taking taking issue with like I wasn't even sure like
what the issue was, like because you, like, I think
Ted Bunny's whiteness is like pretty important and like the
world of like what Ted Bundy did, but it is
an unusual thing to like to be kind of like
questioned in such a infantestimal way about the work, like
(15:25):
was it just like an unsustainable sort of conversation to
have with people? Okay, well, first of all, yes, it
was unsustainable for me. Um. I think there are some
people who are willing to have that be the work
that they do and they find meaning in it, but
that is just not I don't enjoy getting involved in
like arguments online. I like a good argument, to be clear,
(15:49):
Like I think it's fun to like hash out the
details of these scenarios and like, you know what am
I saying with this song? Like what does it really mean?
But it's just not feasible to like, I don't know,
I don't know. The thing that was interesting to me
about that situation, though, the like a lot of true
crime situation is that people take I shouldn't even say this,
(16:12):
but it was beginning to happen that people were taking
my art and the art of other people that I
was like kind of keeping an eye on at face value.
So if you're writing a song and you say I
listened to a lot of true crime, I do. Whatever
these things are, you have people who are taking that
the way you would take a primary source. Because the
(16:33):
academic integrity of social media is like very up in
the air. We have no way to cite a lot
of these things meaningfully. Like I did a paper recently
where I was citing a lot of online content and
it's like, oh, like the institutions that have to do
with knowledge have not caught up to how we legitimize
any of this, and so you have these weird situations
where it's like you're saying something in a song and
(16:55):
people are treating it like you're saying that as a statement,
and it's like, well, no, because part of what's cool
about songs is that they don't have to be from
your specific intellectual or experiential perspective, you know what I mean.
So it's like, why am I defending a character? A
song could be a story, right, Like it often is
right that you're telling. I mean, it's interesting you're sort
(17:15):
of talking about in some way context collapse, which is huge,
Like I think like you talking to people about like
them calling out that you're saying Ted Bundy's white, and
that's there's some issue with that or something feels like
a contextual collapse in some way where it's like if
you take the song and its totality to your point
as a story that you're telling, you would understand it
(17:37):
better in that context, but you don't have that, you know,
in the format of TikTok, Like there's no like, I know,
cliffs notes or whatever for what you're doing. Right, Yeah,
I guess that is a lack of context. I guess
for me, I found myself arguing in favor of the
point that I was trying to make, and I was
(18:00):
trying to make a point. It's not that that wasn't true,
Like I did have the points that I set out
to explore. And this is hard too, because when you're
reading the comments, that comes at you like a monolith,
but what's actually happening is, of course a wide variety
of perspectives, some of which have nothing to do with
each other, and so it's hard to discern. But like
(18:21):
in hindsight, it's like there were people who were saying, like,
I don't like your tone in this song because you
sound like bitchy. And then there were some people saying like,
I don't like this tone in your song. It's unrelated
to the rest of this stuff. And then there's a
significant chunk of people who are like, I don't like
that you are disrespecting the intelligence of serial killers. That
I idolized, and it's like, so these are three extremely
(18:42):
different points that I like, that is a wide range,
it's a wide right, and it's like it's I should specify.
I don't think that most of the people who were like,
what do you mean to buy the genius? Like they
thought that the point I was making is like he's
sucks because he murders, And they were coming back with like,
(19:02):
you can be smart and murder. Oh my god, No,
I mean yes, but it was actually happening was a
totally different argument. No, But but like, are there is
that is that a group of people who are like,
you need to respect Ted Bundy because like, I don't
think that opinion is really super valid. No, No, So
this is actually much more interesting because this is this
is the misunderstanding, right, we think there are people who
(19:25):
are like, you need to respect Ted Bundy, But what's
actually happening is that those are people who are upset
that you would question the mechanisms by which we categorize
certain people as smart. One of the criticisms being why
are you categorizing this person is smart if what they're
proficient at is murdering girls? And that's the real conversation,
(19:48):
it's like, you know, for me, yes, for me absolutely.
First off, that's super interesting and like a level of
discourse on this particular topic that I have not engaged with,
which is like, you know, honestly kind of surprising because
I've been pretty online for most of my adult life.
But like, what's really interesting on top a layer on
(20:10):
top of all this is like this is just people
who are like nitpicking your art basically right, literally, like
you know, the everyone's a critic thing is on full
display in this situation where there is a subset of
people who can find like pretty much any lyric problematic
for them for for a different reason, which is, you know,
(20:32):
it seems daunting, Like I don't know that that artists
at any other period in the world had to experience
such a specific taking apart or picking a part of
their of their art, writer of their craft, Like that
seems deranged. Yeah, well yeah, and that is part of
why I had to kind of take a step back, because,
as you can tell, the topics that I'm interested in
(20:54):
on this level, I can like totally rant about I
enjoy this, Like, well, why do you want them to
be smart? It's because you care about smartness, and that's
what we're I'm actually talking about, Like, let's get into it,
let's get academic with it, let's get weird. But like
at the end of the day, it's like what I
should have said was this is a story and a song,
And I don't understand why you're trying to drag me
into like a like a debate about the truth of
(21:20):
something that is a work of fiction, you know, right,
I mean, I think the level that you're on in
the argument of this conversation about like why somebody wants
(21:42):
somebody to be represented as smart or not smart based
on like some quality that they have, which is, by
the way, super fucking out there. Like I mean, most
people will not entertain such a conversation, but certainly online
there is a deep pool of people who want to
talk about that kind of off. I mean, it's an
interesting argument, but like, can you have that argument at
(22:04):
scale on TikTok? You know what I mean? Like is
that the environment? Well, you know, maybe for somebody, as
it turns out, not for me. Um, because I enjoy
these topics, but it's just not a good format for them.
I don't think you have a song called rat what
you mentioned, which I now own the shirt, the Rat shirt,
(22:25):
because I was like, that's a pretty good design and
I need more black shirts and I love supporting artists.
It's a good shirt, by the way, It's like a
good fit, like high quality. But that song is like
a lot about Elon Musk from what I can tell,
I'm not I'm not an expert. Actually I'm kind of
an expert on that topic. I mean, the song is
a lot about Elon Musk and people like Elon Muskin.
(22:46):
Also sort of like people who like Elon Musk, and
you are highly fucking argumentative in that, like it's not
a tame opinion. You're not like, oh, I have a
kind of middle of the road take on Elon Musk.
Like talk about Rat for a second, talk about the song,
and also for people who haven't heard it, maybe explain
the concept of it. Yeah, so let's see what to
(23:09):
say about Rat. I wrote Rat pretty late in the game.
With regard to the rest of the songs on Public
void Um, feel Better was old and I spruced it
up a little to put it with the others. But
most of the others I had been working on kind
of the summer before I released the whole album. Rat
(23:31):
was one of those ones where you start typing into
the notes app and you're like, that kind of goes together. Actually,
this is all tied to the same idea now that
I think about it, And then you have a song
and I threw it together. I didn't spend a ton
of time making it be totally perfect, like I often
like to nitpick with my songs and with my production,
(23:51):
and in this one I didn't, And I tacked it
onto the end of the album because I was like,
this is not going to be to most people's taste.
This is a weird one that I've made. I will
hide it at the end where all the bad songs go,
and then nobody will hear it. Yeah, this is classic. Yeah.
What was the v H one show where they would
like document some hit song or whatever, And on every
(24:12):
one of those there was either one of two takes
on the song that became the huge hit, which was
either I heard this and I thought it was complete
ship or I heard this and I knew it was
going to be a hit. When you're so close to it,
you can't really tell which way it's going to break,
you know, all right, so you stick it at the
end of the record. Yeah, I stick it at the
end of the record, and I'm like, I will also say, like,
(24:36):
I was surprised on tour. I thought that a lot
of the sentiments I had were very West Coast because
I have a lot of friends from Silicon Valley adjacent,
and then I have a lot of friends from like Seattle,
Amazon Territory adjacent, and like, so this is something we
talked about a lot. Is like why is it fucking like,
like why why always you think things are cool and
(24:58):
you want there to be robe loots and they're always
mean and I don't understand and that sucks. Like that's
what it's about. It's about loss of faith. It's about
I like had stars in my eyes and I thought
all these things were so cool and all these people
were my heroes, and you grow up and you're like, fuck,
(25:21):
I didn't want that to happen. So wait a second.
You grew up in in like around Silicone Valley or
near Silicone Valley, is that correct? But driving distance? Yeah,
so so when you were growing up and this is
fascinating because I grew up in Pittsburgh, which is where
nothing happens for the most part, except the Steelers, And
I don't like sports, so it's a problem. But when
(25:42):
you were like growing up there, like people like Steve
Jobs and these other people who were sort of like
the like leaders of sort of technology culture kids there
or whatever, We're like, these people are cool. Was that
like a thing? I mean, yeah, yeah, at least around me.
And also this might have to do with the age
group that is the first age group to kind of
(26:03):
like join the learning curve of iPhones and like smartphones.
But I mean, because people forget that all these things
are so into your psychology as a child too, Like
it's technology, it's not just about like and then the
country did this, and then the country did that. It's
like you're fond memories of being loved and being excited
(26:24):
about things. Is there a phone in them? What was
it like? Like these things are so deep to your
core memories. So yeah, and I would say that, like
I don't know, Yes, there's a lot of love for technology.
And I was so surprised I played chose to find
that kids in places that were not Seattle specifically or
Silicon Valley specifically knew all the words too. And we're
(26:47):
just as feisty and I was like, oh, okay, interesting.
I think there's something universal about the idea that those
people are going to take us places we haven't gone before,
and that there is something to cheer. I mean, I
do want to unpack RAT a little bit more. But
like talking about Elon Musk, which is he has been
a topic on this show for several episodes. I can
(27:09):
tell you because it's like, here's a guy who a
few years ago I would have been like, let me
ask him the most interesting question I can think of
because they'll have the most interesting answer. And like I,
I as well as anybody else, was like, this guy's
really fucking interesting and smart. And now I'm like, whoa,
this person is a piece of ship who sucks. Like
that's really weird. So I think I understand it, probably
(27:32):
from a different perspective, but like I can't imagine what
it was like growing up around it, because like it's
so easy to be influenced by that when you're younger, right,
like to have it surround you and to be influenced
by it. Yeah, I think I think there's something to that.
I mean, I guess I will just say, like that's
part of why RAT is the way that it is.
I think that there's a lot of talks about like
(27:56):
I don't know Elon Us specifically, but like the Elon
Musk type that are like, you know, I have the
moral high ground and this is what he's doing wrong,
or like, you know, actually I was his like I
like worked for his company and whatever, and this is
like my personal intel experience, Like I wanted rat not
to be that. I didn't want it to be like
these are my well thought out criticisms of how you're
(28:17):
choosing to run your company. I wanted it to be
like you hurt my feelings. I liked you, and you
made me sad. You know, it's a break up host.
It's like literally you say, like you broke my heart
right or whatever like that you're saying, like I thought
you were going to be this great thing and it
turns out like you're sort of trash and you're bad
for humanity. So was that a revelation for you at
(28:39):
some point? Like was that a thing that that happened
in your life? Um? I think it happens over the
course of years in most people's lives. I think it's
very normal to have at least a few good dramatic
breaks in your worldview between the age of like ten
(29:01):
and twenty one, and in our case, it's going to
have to do with technology where your world is shattering. Yeah,
and it's like part of it, you know. I wouldn't
say that there was like a specific instance. It's not
like I was like standing in the street in San
Jose watching Tesla's like fighting, like no, like just it's
(29:24):
just a single tear streaming down your face as you Yeah,
you're like I did. I thought this was gonna be
a better car or something, and now I'm yeah, No, No,
I just think that it's you know, a subtle thing,
more subtle, more long term. Yeah, but I think it
speaks to like the whole world that we occupy right now,
right Like, I think it became very popular. I feel
(29:45):
like you can find it in lots of different places,
but it is definitely something that you see on TikTok
on other social networks. Ironically, it's not ironic at all.
It's all connected. No, but it's like the disillusionment with
like technology and where it was going to take and
who was going to lead it. I feel like, God,
that's like so universal now. I mean I think you
were ahead of the curve to some degree on the
(30:07):
severity of how bad the disappointment was going to be. Right,
like that song you did like two years ago or something, Yeah,
I did do it two years ago, and I think
an important part of it like this, for me, this
is the key difference. Why can't you have these complex,
nuanced discussions about fact in the same medium where you're
(30:27):
doing the art Because the song isn't saying, it's not prescriptive.
It's not like this is what we should do. The
song is ouch, it's sad. I feel bad and I
still want to go to space, but I don't want
it to be nasty, like it's like you know, yeah,
And I think it's really important for people to get
(30:47):
in touch with that feeling first before all this stuff
about like where do we go, what do we do,
how do we make it better? Who's to blame? It's
important to just take a second and be like, I
am never going to be somebody who doesn't think that
this tech stuff is cool. That's I'm never getting out
of that. I'm always going to be impressed. I'm always
going to love these advancements, and it's gonna be bitter sweet, yeah, right,
(31:13):
sort of talking about this um lack of space for
this sort of art or the emotion of it to
breathe like, I mean, it's funny because I know you
did like a Genius video, and Genius is a really
good example of this, where literally, line by line, people
will go like, well, let me explain what this thing means.
And I think I'm not arguing that any art like
needs to exist like this, but I think art in
(31:34):
some way music in some way in previous generations, where
there wasn't constant content and discourse produced about an individual
piece of art, you can have a personal take on
it that was not informed by or reflected by some
other person's like piece of discourse about it. And now,
I mean, this is sort of like what I thought
(31:55):
was so interesting about the TikTok stuff that I saw
from you. It was literally a line from a song
had to be discussed because someone didn't get it. And
it wasn't like they didn't get it personally and they
had to think about it. It was like they didn't
get it. And now their lack of getting it or
understanding it has become a topic of conversation that the
artists themselves must respond to, which feels like, I don't know,
(32:19):
like could be a creativity prison in some way, you know. Yeah,
I think it interrupts the process of writing music. Yeah,
if you're not careful. I mean it's not like it's
a total barrier, but it has to be navigated one
way or another. Yeah, but you're like kind of not
online very much, like from what I can tell, Yeah,
I'm really not. Yeah. No, I mean I started following
you a bunch of different things, and frankly it's even
(32:42):
hard to like find like I'm like, is this is
this her account? Like I don't know, you know, it's
sort of vague. Have you basically disengaged from like that conversation? Um,
I have not been on TikTok in a really long time.
I'm still on Instagram quite a bit. I don't post
a lot, but I'm looking at stuff a lot. Um. Yeah,
(33:04):
like a creep on Instagram. Okay, good to know. Yeah,
I totally alert or on Instagram and I will like
look through interactions with my content. But I also, I mean,
I have a other fake Instagram for sure that I'll
just go through and use, Like I don't it's not
the public one. But I'm engaged all the time of Instagram,
(33:26):
I believe is what they're calling it these days. Um,
but TikTok, Like, was there some specific moment with TikTok
where you're like, no, I got I can't do this.
I think I stuck it out for a few waves
of trolls, But one wave of trolls got to a
point where I was like, this is just stupid. I'm
choosing actively to open my phone every day and allow
(33:51):
not even the opinions, but just like the words, the loose,
unmitigated words of strangers to affect the degree to which
I can make this content being the art, not not
the videos, to be clear, but like it's like it
became a point where instead of being like, no, it's
my duty to look at everything and like take all
(34:13):
these criticisms to heart, I hit a point where I
was like, I am choosing to be less proficient at
the thing that I now do. I should stop making
that choice. I should close my phone and go outside. Yeah,
but that's kind of fucking crazy when you think about it,
because it's like you had this platform, you were using
this platform in a way that was like you can
(34:34):
make an argument. It's super fucking positive that you were
able to put music on it as far as I know,
like you didn't have like a huge record deal or something.
You weren't like a famous person previously. You're like a
human being on TikTok putting music on it, and that
it struck a chord. No pun intended, though I do
apologize for saying that, um, it struck some chord with people,
(34:54):
and then it became a thing. And then immediately or
not immediately, but pretty shortly thereafter, that environment became so
upsetting or toxic for you. I mean, I don't want
to use the word toxic. I think it gets overused,
but like it became a not good environment from what
I when I'm hearing, and you basically disengage with it,
which seems like a real failure of the platform in
(35:15):
some way, right like or maybe it's a failure of humanity.
I don't know, I don't know. I mean it depends
if you think about what TikTok wants, like as its
own entity, but not not the people, but the TikTok.
I feel like what it wants is growth. It wants
there to be this constant new content, this constant new material.
(35:35):
And I got to a point where it's like, well,
maybe that's not a service that I wish to engage
with anymore right now. I mean, if I'm not going
to be this rapid overturned stuff, if I'm not going
to constantly be like pushing the button creating drama for
good or for evil, and if I'm not really a
social media person and I'm instead a music person who
(35:56):
is for the time being using this platform because it
is fun, then when it stops being fun, when it
stops being productive, it got to be like a little
bit what am I doing here? Right? So yeah, I
don't know if that's a failure, that might just be
the design. Well no, but it's fascinating. I mean, you
are I mean, I don't know how old you are,
but I guess you and I are probably twenty years
apart in age. And like I feel like that's a
(36:19):
realization that to me feels like a because I'm maybe rude,
I don't like an old person realization where I feel
the same way like I spent like a lot of
my career, I mean in a very different way, but
like building you know, a kind of like conversation on
these like platforms where I mean Twitter is a good
example of all this ship that's going on Twitter right now.
It's like, you know, I spent like a lot of
(36:40):
my career building this like conversation with people, and now
I'm like, yeah, like that doesn't feel like healthier good
or productive for me personally, and and so I'm sort
of like I want to step back from it. But
like your person who presumably was raised on this, like
I mean, like you said, like my phone was a
part of every you know, sort of early memory or
sort of important memory when you were younger. So like,
(37:02):
it's weird that that both of us would arrive at
such a thing. I'm not I'm not saying it's the
same experience, but but it does say something I think
about the the failings of this stuff, like this particular
thing about you not being on TikTok and not engaging
with that stuff I was not planning on talking about
because I kind of didn't perceive it because when you're
not there, you're not there, right, It's not like you
(37:24):
put up a sign and you're like, oh, I'm no
longer on TikTok. But this is the other thing I
want to talk to you about, which is like you
haven't put out a lot of new music recently as
far as I know, So what's the next thing? Like
where do you go from here? Basically? Wow? Okay, where
to start with all of that? Let's um first of all,
real quick, I will just say I stocked you back
(37:47):
a little bit, just in so far as I listened
to the other episodes, And I think it's really interesting
that the other people that you've interviewed, some of them
are like kind of going through the same thing, but
they're going through with Twitter. And it's like for me
to watch from the sideline. I know really got into Twitter.
It was a little early for me and then a
little late for me, and it just never hits. So
to watch people be so dismayed at like the state
(38:09):
of Twitter right now is really fascinating as someone who
has no personal staking when we or the other really,
oh my god, you're so lucky. I mean, you're just
so lucky. Like I can't even it's the worst, shittiest
social network that sucked as from the beginning, and like
to have any allegiance to it, no, I mean it's
like truly was never good. And I'm so jealous of
(38:29):
anybody who was like yeah, I just that's not from me.
That's so it's funky, and I don't know all these things,
all these apps or whatever. It's like, yeah, it's super fun.
It's great to be on it. But the part that
makes it good is that it's social. It's the other people.
It's not that the computer has like the juice in
(38:51):
there that you want. It's like, actually the fact that
there's somebody, which for me made it easier to kind
of get off the Internet for a while. Um anyway,
so then I question of what am I doing now?
You're not going to go back to TikTok, right, like
you're not like I'm back. I would be. I would
be open to it, but I'm not going to do
it just because I don't know how to stop, you know,
(39:12):
right right, that's healthy. I would maybe in the future
do some more coordinated posting. I really enjoyed when I
used to go through my like song making production process.
I thought that was a fun thing to do into showcase.
So I might try to do some of those ones again,
just like little instructional videos. Well well let me not
not to interrupt, but like it, it becomes different right
(39:33):
when you are when you've got people now who are
following you, and I don't know what you're following is
like on TikTok, but people know who you are. There's
some segment of the audience there. It seems like some
of the original stuff on TikTok was like you were
just doing stuff because it was like you're experimenting and
trying things out and there was no pressure and no expectation.
But it's different when you're like everything you do or
or things that you do will be immediately sort of
(39:55):
judged or commented on or you know, share it or
whatever more widely. So it changes it, right, Yeah, it
does change it. Um, And I think you have to
decide if you're doing things to generate popularity or if
you're doing it kind of um regardless of that, and
both are fine, but you have to pick before you
do the thing because they're they're different. Okay, so now
(40:17):
what what are you What are you doing? Like are
you making more music? When like this is like by
the classic closure on a podcast like pertain about like
crazy shit like online discourse And now we're like I'm like, okay,
so when's the new album drop or whatever? But no,
I am curious, like are you working at in music?
Are you going to do a new record? Like what
is the future for you? Like, what do you thinking
(40:39):
about working on? Excited about? There's new music and there's
about an EP or album's worth that is kind of
in my style normally. And then what I really want
to do, and I've done this for a couple of them,
I think one or two is I want to do
another really small EP that's just a few, like fully
(41:02):
orchestral sounding versions of these songs that people would already know,
because I think that's fun. And I did it for
time in my life, which isn't a secret because I
already played the orchestral version on tour. But that one
was one that I did way back and it had
no words, and it was the backtrack for like video
I made. And then I went back and just used
(41:24):
the MIDI and like changed all the sounds and messed
with it and tinkered and tinkered and tinkered and made
words and now it's going to be like this insane
like string heavy orchestra sound. So I wanted to do
that with um with that song, and then I also
want to do it with Gross, which is another song
that people only know since I've played it on tour,
but it's a very like techy almost eighties with the strings,
(41:47):
but like a very beat boot song. And then the
new I want to do an orchestral version of that sometime.
But that's all just about grouping them. The short answer is, yes,
there will be a new album. Right. Are you touring
currently right now? Or you in between stuff? In between stuff,
but you can go and like you're playing like shows
with like a ton of people there right, I mean
(42:08):
they're like packed hous. I mean, I've seen some video
from it, but you've got fans who are going to
come out and like see that, which must be also surreal,
I guess, because you know it's like you've got online
people and then they don't seem real but they are
actually real. Yeah. I think there were a few milestones
like that that me and my team were like things
(42:32):
where it's like you can't guess how it's going to
go until it goes. And one of those was can
she make it through a show live? Which had not
been attempted before I started doing that, And then it
was interesting yeah, and then it was will people actually
show up in real life versus an internet thing? And
both of those, we were like pleasantly surprised. I've also
(42:54):
been shocked and surprised by the fact that, like you
could do things on the Internet and then go, oh,
I'm going to be here, I'm doing this, and then
people will just like show up and there's like human
beings who you're like, you're this avatar but now you're
a real person. But I mean, I've seen some videos
of you know, you're playing rooms full of people like
singing the lyrics, like singing along with the lyricy of
(43:15):
your songs, which is I mean, kind of incredible no
matter who you are. But do you like Tori? Do
you like that? I did like that. I do. I
do like playing live, which I did not expect to. Um.
I thought that it was going to not be my
thing because, as you can probably tell, as a producer
(43:36):
type yourself, like, I very much enjoy the producer angle,
and I like to just sit on my little computer
and tinker and listen to the same three seconds again
and again for like four consecutive hours until I'm insane.
And I did not expect to enjoy the performance aspect,
but I did. I thought it was very fun. People
have always been very nice. So I think I've kept
(43:56):
you on this long enough. I just want to say,
like I found this conversation to be complete, fascinating and
so surprising, like we went to places that I did
not expect, and I still have, frankly, many more questions.
So when you are ready, when you really are releasing
new music and going out on tour again, like you
have to come back. And we have talked more about
not only your music, which I truly do love, but
(44:18):
also whether you're back on TikTok, which to me is
going to be a very important topic to to to revisit.
So anyhow, thank you so much for doing this. I
really appreciate and I really enjoyed the conversation. Thank you
very much for having me. I will be happy to
come back sometime in the name of public good. They
taught me everything just like a daddy should. And you
were beautiful and vulnerable and power and success. God damn,
(44:39):
I felt for you. You are flamed the words, your
tunnels and your tech. I studied code because I wanted
to do something great like you. And the real tragedy
is half of it was true. But we've been fucking
being were elatest whereas flawed as any church in this
boom red West Coast Dogma has a higher fucking that word.
I've been the apple because I trusted you. It's haste
like Thomas mall lose her for post and insane and
(45:02):
I hope somedays Salmer's rides are fucking trained. Well, that
was a great conversation. I knew I say that a lot.
I'm like, that was great, but this one. All the
other ones I was lying, and this one I really
mean that this is true. It's fascinating just to see
(45:24):
a totally different perspective on being online. And I love
the fact that, you know, she basically was like people
who are on Twitter are sad and horrible and losers
and I hate them. No, she didn't say that, but
but it interest you see, like if your entire worldview
isn't like you know, I'm like a journalist who's been
on Twitter from the get go, so I'm like, oh,
that's you know, very important, or everybody's on it. He's
(45:45):
talking about It's like, yeah, there's just like it doesn't
matter to a lot of people, which is I think
what we all know and believe. But but to to
see how easily the experience. The bad experiences of any
social network are mirrored on even the newest social network
that everybody loves, which is TikTok. I guess, be real,
eventually somebody will learn how to harass and be real
that that will be that'll be that. But you know,
(46:07):
it's just fascinating to see the gap in experience in
an age and all that, but then the same sort
of outcome through social media. And I would say, you know,
it's interesting to me to hear an artist's experience because
I think it's healthy in a way to go, wait
(46:29):
a second, Like I'm not here for to interact with
people on social media. I'm here to make something. And
if like this is a bad place to make it,
or it's unwelcoming or it is unsustainable in some way,
then like maybe I just shouldn't be making it here
or worrying about like the discourse here. And I think
that's important. I think it's a sign of of things
to come. I think we've talked a lot on the
show about this, but I feel like there is a
(46:53):
I don't want to call it a movement, but I
think there is a change in like humanity happening. There
is some part of us that's kind of going, wait,
I don't have to be here. I don't have to
do this. I don't have to respond to the things
that I think or thought I had to respond to.
I don't have to be the person that these services
tell me I should be. It's a profoundly important step
(47:14):
in the evolution of how we deal with each other
in a like online society. More importantly than anything else
that we talked about is that she's going to be
making some new music, and I'm gonna be able to
download and like some new tunes on the streaming service
of my choice. I assume it's very hard for me
to get excited about new music. I feel like I've
(47:35):
listened to a lot of music in my life, and
making music forced me to listen, you know, I forced
myself to listen to a lot of stuff both weird
and also very popular, and so it's hard. I have like,
very um, what is the fifty Shades of Gray meme?
He's like, I have very unconventional desires or something like.
I feel like this part of me that is like
(47:57):
I have very unconventional desires when it comes to music. Again,
then there's part of me that's like I have extremely
conventional desires, right like sort of high and low. So
I don't find myself getting hooked by a particular artist
very often, like I like one thing and then go
the rest of their stuff is okay, Or there's a
couple of tracks there that I'm interested in, but it
doesn't really do it for me. So here's something like
(48:17):
one offs like DJ Seinfeld, Godford, I mentioned Fred again,
Fred Again. I definitely like a little bit more of
Salt s A U l T. This is a band,
big deal, Friars Art school girlfriend Barbara and Ernie, Big Thief,
(48:39):
Girl in Red. I love War Paint War Pain has
become a big favorite this year. Who Are Stranger? A
lot of Polital record, which is like a Billy Joel record,
but it's like I don't know, well, awkward one
Host
Joshua Topolsky
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