March 5, 2025 • 46 mins
Best-selling author Sarah Hoover joins Zoe for a raw conversation about the emotions and challenges that come with being a mother. Sarah also sheds light on the uphill battles she’s faced trying to become an author, though she always knew that she had something important to say.
Follow us on Instagram! @whatinthewinklerpod
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
You are listening to What in the Winkler and iHeartRadio podcast. Hi,
welcome back to What in the Winkler. I am so
excited today. Sarah Hoover is on the podcast. Sarah is
a best selling author, art historian, and cultural critic. Her
memoir The Motherload Episodes From the Brink of Motherhood debut
on USA Today's National best Selling book list. It is
(00:24):
now available everywhere you buy books and audiobooks. She holds
a master's degree in cultural theory from Colombia and a
BA in art history from NYU. I am obsessed with
her and I am going to have a full fan
girl moment. So let's let her in.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Hi.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Hi, Oh my god, thank you so much for doing this.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Of course. How's it going.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
It's going so well. I'm obsessed with your book.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Thank you. It.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
I like put light, I like used a ball hyelighter.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Oh my gosh, thank you.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
I made notes in my phone app as I was
reading it. So I am just so excited to talk
to you about it.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Oh my gosh, thank you. That's so nice of you.
I'm excited to talk to you too. How's the podcast going.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
It's good, you know, originally it was my mom and
I and my mom and I have a very I mean,
I think it's so bizarre because I don't know you.
I think we have a lot of friends in common,
but I feel like I know everything about you, So
I feel like we have similar moms, but I don't
know her, never met her, I never met You's.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Funny because I always thought like my mom and I
were so like my you know, my mom's a unique
person whatever, But almost every single woman on my book
to her has been like, my mom is exactly like yours,
even though I don't know your mom, and I'm like,
I think all moms are just kind of alike.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Yeah, and I think you know, I my mom just
like hates feeling the neediness, is like it repulses her
when it comes for me at least, and so yeah,
we just like but now, I mean, as I'm I'm
for before and we're so incredibly close. But she got
really really sick in November and almost died. And I
(02:10):
was thinking about, like when I was reading your book
and those parts about your mom and like crying about
your mom dying when not even like when she was
still very much here and alive. And then I thought
about how like all these moments in your book that
feels so like lonely, but then you actually get through them.
That that's the biggest part. That's the scariest part, is
(02:30):
like how will I handle this? And then as you
go through it, obviously my mom is okay now, thank god,
but you realize like you can sort of get through
these moments, which is like when you're in them, you
feel like you're drowning and you feel like you have
to like ask other people around if you're losing your mind,
you know. Yeah, and so did you you have two kids?
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Now? I have two kids. Yeah, I have a little
girl who's probably going to walk in and you might
even see her, but she's ten months old.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
And is Sharon back.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Yes, I have the same baby nurse this time the
same maybe. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
I loved my baby nurse so much.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Yeah, it's a really special relationship.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
It is. I had the same one with the second
I have three kids. I had the same one, but
the first one I actually she stopped doing it, but
I loved her so much. And I remember my best
friend coming over and visiting me from New York, and
I just had Ace, who's my oldest who's thirteen, and
I said to her. She was wearing an orange scarf,
and I was like, do you mind giving that to Christine?
(03:31):
Who's my favorite? And she was like, what do you mean.
I was like, well, orange is her favorite color, and
you're wearing an orange scarf, and I just feel like
you should give it to her. She was like, are
you you lost your mind?
Speaker 2 (03:40):
You're like, yes, yes I have, but yeah, important thing
from now on is that my baby nurse is happy,
so and so that's just how it's going to go.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Time did you go? Are you going to write another book?
Speaker 2 (03:51):
I need? Well, I would love to, but I am
still like very much in this book. You know, I'm
not I'm not on with my book tour and stuff,
so I haven't had time to like make it to
do list.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
How does it feel having it out in the world.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
It's good, I you know, there are disappointments. It's a
roller coaster like anything else, and it's strange to have
it out in the world. In a lot of ways,
I don't know what I expected the response to be,
but I knew from like the minute that I started
writing it that it felt really urgent and important to me,
(04:33):
and like I faced obviously endless rejection of people being
like you're not a writer, you know, we don't want
this book, et cetera, as I think like any any
new writer does. But I always was like, this has
to be published, Like there are so many women that
are like me that don't feel seen and are lonely
(04:54):
and think that they're alone and think that no one
else experiences this, and like I have to, you know,
continue down this path, even though so many people told
me I would never get a book published, et cetera.
So it always I always knew that it would like
find its people, you know, and I didn't know if
that would be a lot of people are like four people,
(05:15):
but I knew that it would find people who needed
to hear what it said. And it has and that
isn't like a surprise to me. I guess the surprise
has been in like how big that number is. But
my like big takeaway from I've been on I was
on tour for a month. I just got back last week,
and like, my biggest takeaway has been the like sheer magnitude.
(05:38):
How many women have experienced something so completely like life
altering and have not really had an outlet to discuss
it how lonely they are. And I've had women like
in their seventies and eighties say I didn't ever in
my thirties, forties or fifties, the language to like describe
(06:01):
these feelings did not exist yet even among your best
friends and like your intimates, you weren't talking about this
kind of stuff. And until I read your book, I
didn't realize that I, like have had postpartum depression since
I had my kids, and that I never connected with
them because I was depressed, and I like didn't realize
it till now. And they have women who have for
(06:22):
forty years been mentally unwell after the birth of their
firstborn and have had just like had to live life
without finding solace and a narrative that made sense for them.
So it's weird to have it out there. But I
did always know what would find its home among its people.
I just I didn't know that it would be like
so many people and people of different ages and stuff
(06:43):
like that, you know, but I knew it was important.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
I feel like, you read all these books or you
go to these classes on how to have the baby,
but nine times out of ten you're in a hospital,
so you're like yeah, you know that part, but then
you bring this baby home and nobody really talks about that.
And I mean in therapy since I was six and
I was certainly not prepared, and I was a preschool
teacher before I had kids, and I thought like, oh,
(07:07):
I got this, this is going to be And I
had such severe postpartum anxiety. And so when you write
about your husband dropping the baby at the chateau outside
and the rage you felt, I felt that, like at
every moment that my husband would miss step, even though
you know it was an accident or whatever, or it
(07:29):
wasn't even but like it was so disproportionate to what
was happening in the moment that but I didn't it
didn't feel like postpartum, because postpartum felt like you would
just be like I want to kill my baby.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
Hine all day or whatever. Yeah. I mean, I wonder
if you felt more like acknowledged and seen for what
you had gone through, and of women on mass were
more appreciated for the toll that childbirth takes and how
like difficult it is to bring healthy life into the world.
I wonder if the rage would feel the same, because like,
(08:05):
in retrospect, yeah, my rage was disproportionate, but it wasn't
just really about that one time that the baby got dropped.
It was about the fact that I felt like the
whole world was just like, yep, business as usual, you
had a baby, No who cares, you know, And I
found it to be like such a massive rupture, and
it was so much grander and more complex than anyone
(08:25):
had ever explained to me. So like, in a way
of the rage was justified because I was like, you
don't get any of it. You know, I'm mad about everything.
I'm mad about so much more than just this like
little mistake.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
And then I would feel like almost I would feel
so it was like this self fulfilling prophecy because then
i'd feel guilty about being upset or acting out or
because everyone's like, you're so emotional, you're you know. So
it was like this whole I don't know, it just
didn't feel ever like I felt misunderstood and I didn't
(08:59):
feel like and I hate that feeling more than anything.
I think people like to be seen and like to
feel understood, and so.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
I think it was such a feeling.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
It's a terrible feeling. And I think that your book
makes people feel seen, and and it's in such a
way where it's it's like you you feel, it's like
an intimate I don't know. When I read it, I
felt like I listened to it on audible. Then I
would come home and like wherever I left off, I
would read it. Yeah, before I loved I'd never done
(09:32):
that before. I'm not like a huge reader, I I
I'm not. I don't. I haven't found like a book
that I feel like, I like devoured it and I
just think that that is such an incredible.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
It's just you're so talented. Obviously you know that, but
it was just.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
I don't know that. I mean, that's really nice. I
don't my I like never cared if at the end
of it someone was like, you're a really good writer,
Like that doesn't matter to me. Anything that mattered was
that I knew I had something to say that felt
really important, and I wanted to write it in a
way that like the most people would read it mm hmmm,
(10:12):
because I thought, obviously that would me and would have
the greatest impact. And to me that was like conversational
and lively and propulsive and like would make you want
to turn the page and keep going. So I really
a goal was to like write it in my real
life voice, which and you did? I mean that sounds
like it would be easy. Well you kind of do,
I mean you listen to it on the audio book, Yeah,
(10:33):
I did.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
I did?
Speaker 2 (10:33):
You know. I wanted it to feel like you were
sitting in a room with me, like having a conversation
kind of. And that sounds so easy, Like we should
all be able to write the way we think the
way it's so but it's so hard.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
It's so hard train yourself to do.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
It's so difficult.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
And it felt like you were, you know, in all,
Like it just felt like you were there with you,
you know.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
It really Wait, I started watching The New White Lotus
last night, which I don't know I've watched hip I had,
and it's set in Thailand. But the monkeys are like
a whole character in that in that TV show, it's.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
Really exactly what they're talking about when I watch it
tonight after.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
My kid's good a bit.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
It's funny though, when you talk about the hotels. It's
like a running joke with all of my best friends,
my whole family that I find something disgusting in every hotel.
I can name like two hotels in the world that
I've never been upset about. And so and I was like,
see it happens to other people, because my husband will
be like, you look for things, and I'm like, are
(11:38):
you out of your mind? Like I just find you. Yeah,
I'm not, like I hope today I find something disgusting.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
I know, I know it's really unfortunate, but at the
end of the day, even the fancy hotels are like
beyond hundreds of people have stayed in that room.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
You know, when you got in that bathtub, I was like,
you are a brave lady fold move.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
I know. Never have I done that again?
Speaker 1 (11:59):
So no, I know. So do you feel did you
feel when you were having your second? Were you worried
about because I felt for me that like my transition
to one child was way harder than my transition to
two or three because I was so terrified and so
everyone thinks it's crazy when I say that, But did
you feel the same or.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
Wait, I have a question. You have three? Did you
were they all? How do I say this? Like did
you grow up thinking? I mean, you were a preschool teacher,
so maybe like were you like I really want kids,
Like all I ever.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Wanted, Okay, all I ever wanted was to be a mom.
I didn't have, Like I mean, I wasn't. I wasn't
like I can't wait, I didn't have, which is so
sad now because now I have a really successful nonprofit
that I work really hard on. But I never had
dreams of like a career ever. I just wanted to
be a mom. And then when I got to the mom, no,
(12:51):
but it is a little because then your kids get
older and there's like but when I when I had Ace,
and I would see like these women walking down the
street with like a yoga mat and a stroller and
I couldn't even figure out how to cross Santa Senny
to get to the country mart In Brentwood because there
was no lights. That my therapist to this day will
still be like, are you having a crossing Sambasenny moment?
I can't, you know, Like I felt like such a loser,
(13:14):
you know, And I wish that there had been something
like this, like this book that would have made me
feel like, wait, this is normal, because nobody in my
baby group was saying these things.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
No, what do you think that I'm someone in their
that group felt it.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
One hundred percent, you know, one hundred percent. But when
I felt it, actually, my friend Casey Crown, who is
like a healer now, and she I go to her
like she I sort of like. She tells the story
about the first time meeting me. I step out, my
baby nurses in the car and I'm like, he cried
the whole way from Beverly Hills to Santa Monica. We'd
never met before. I didn't even tell her my name
(13:48):
and she never She was like, you scared me so
that I never went back to the class.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Oh my god, I was really scared. With the second look,
there was a big stretch between my two kids because
I Misscarrie and I had to do IVF. There was
(14:15):
a lot of work to get to be pregnant again.
So by the time I got pregnant again, I had
like been in therapy for years. I had processed everything
a million different ways. I've been in all different kinds
of therapy, and I knew that I could not have
a repeat of the first time around, or that I
would die like there was no I knew how bad
(14:35):
it had been, so I really put a lot of
like safeguards in place. For myself so that it wouldn't
happen the second time, and it did it. But important
for me was having a non traumatic birth and having
like every system I could think of in place to
make sure that I had a positive experience. I had
a very terrible pregnancy the second time. I was on
(15:00):
medical bed rest for four months, oh wow. And I
at the very end developed coolest stasis of the liver,
which can be is fatal at thirty seven weeks so
I delivered, was induced very early, and I had morning
sickness till the day I delivered, and like just you know,
it was one of those pregnancies that just was just rough,
(15:21):
and because birth is birth, it was also bloody and
painful and scary and all the things you would expect.
But none of it was traumatic, and none of it
made me depressed or triggered any sort of like emotional issues.
(15:43):
I wouldn't even say I had. I had some anxiety
this time, but not to the point where I got
in the way of my life. And it was just
a totally different experience. But I really attribute a lot
of it. I had a huge perspective shift, of course,
because I like, this baby was so wanted I worked
so hard to get her. I had, you know, just
(16:04):
processed a lot, so I like was coming at it
from a place of being like, this might be your
last time. You just got to like go with the
flow on this one. And you know, if I had
been put on medical bed dress the first time around,
I would have lost my mind. I think I would
have died, that I would have killed myself. But this time,
I just would lay in bed every day and just think,
you know, you get your baby at the end of this.
(16:25):
And I had a lot of patience and a lot
of perspective. But the real, like important piece of the
puzzle for me was that when I was looking for
a new obe or new care, because I also interviewed midwives,
I like brought a list of things that I required
for the care to feel empathetic and like trauma informed
and the kind of the kind of medicine that I
(16:49):
knew I needed to have a really happy and like
spiritual birth experience, and a lot of doctors like simply
would not comply with the requirements that I had. There
are doctors who like where like, we don't allow dulas
no matter what. And I was like, well, I'm having
a doula, so I won't be delivering with you. You know,
there are some really unmodern doctors that I interviewed, but
(17:10):
I found one that was like willing to go with
my needs and it made all the difference. It made
it for a really positive experience, and I just I
was like happy the whole time. I think also, like.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
That that's so huge that you a lot of people
don't have perspective shifts, even if it gets better. You
know that you just were able to change your whole
perspective because it's really hard to do.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Yeah, I worked to add it a lot. M I
worked at it a lot. I did like five or
six different modalities of therapy and picked up therapeutic practices,
meditation and journaling and blah blah blah. Like I worked
really hard. I did not ever want to go back
to that dark place. And I also I was not
(17:56):
on I don't take anti depressants now, but I was
like willing to go back on if I needed them.
And I just was like really open minded to doing
whatever it took to be in a positive place. And
I just had so many more resources like I was
in therapy. And however, I have a really good friend
who had incredibly severe postpartum depression after all three of
(18:18):
her births, so bad that she was institution She institutionalized
herself after her second and I didn't, like, actually think
that that was possible, because after the first I thought, like,
now you know what to do, like if you start
feeling sad again, like you get on antidepressants and you
go to therapy and you do this, Matt and she
was like, yeah, except the second time for me, none
(18:38):
of it worked, which is so terrifying to me. Like
antidepressants in my mind were a last ditch effort, Like
they weren't. I didn't want to have to be on
medicine for forever. But once I got around to the
idea that it would do you hear my baby, Yeah,
if you get around to the idea that it I'll
(18:58):
bring her over here. You get her if you got
around to the idea that, Like, I had a great
stigma against antidepressants at the beginning, and then I sort
of got over that and was like, this is the
only chance you have a happiness. So I started taking
them and got over my you know, preconceived notions of
what that meant. And once I did, and they were
(19:21):
like a huge life saver for me. I considered them
an option for the future if I needed them. Like
I weaned off of them after a while, but I
considered them an option and the like. It didn't occur
to me that later on they could like quit working
and not function for you anymore. And I feel like
so bad for my friends who had gone through it
all had like found her way out, and then the
(19:41):
disease changed for her with her second and third and
she had to literally like go into an institution, into
a it was an outpatient program, but in at a
hospital in LA because she just like couldn't get better
and nothing was working, which is so terrifying. Yeah, it is.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
I was on I mean I'd been on medication since
I was well, and then I went off because I thought,
like at my first with Ace, my oldest, I was like,
I have to go off when I get pregnant. And
then with my other two after, you know, I finally
went back on because I literally mine was like health related.
I kept thinking I was going to die or he
was going to die someone, you know, And I went
(20:17):
back on it, and I stayed on it for my
second two pregnancies, and I couldn't have made it without it,
and I was so tired of then I was worried
because I was worried, and I remember the doctor and
I think someone you're one of your therapists said this
to you. But the doctor that I went to, the psychopharmacologist,
was like, you're here, so you're doing the first thing
as being a good mom, you know, like when your
(20:38):
therapist said to you, well, you're getting the help, you know,
And it's like it's so clouded at that moment that
you don't even realize that showing up and like trying
to do better is the first step in that you're
actually being a great mom and you're you know, but
it's it's really it's so it's the I think it's
something that people just think you're supposed to know all
(21:00):
these things. And I didn't grow up, you know with
my mom really being like the sort of like my
mom's the best and she's so great, but there were
always many people in my house, Like I was never
looking you know, like she was not was never just
like me and her, you know.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Yeah, I didn't have a lot of one on one
time with mine either, Like she wasn't taking me out
to lunch and getting her nails done together and stuff
like that.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
Yeah, I mean, and when we did there were like
special days, but it wasn't like, you know, she wasn't
picking me up from school or I had There were
like a lot of nannies and a lot of so
I didn't really see what that looked like doing it
sort of without that didn't. I didn't know what that
looked like. And I was so scared too. So my
baby nurse was supposed to stay a month and stayed
(21:44):
nine because I couldn't. I was so weirdly attached to
her that I couldn't let her go.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
You know, Yeah, I really just feel sorry for there
are so many women who like don't hug, and like
what do you do when you have no option like that,
when you don't have family close by, you don't own
resources to like have that kind of help, like, and
also you can't complain because you're afraid your baby will
get taken away if you tell someone the truth of
(22:09):
what your mental health looks like and get scared that.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
Your baby's gonna feel it, even though you know, you know,
I mean, at least I was, I was, you know,
so frightened that like somehow it was going to be like, well,
he would know that I didn't really know what I
was doing, But yeah, I think I assumed and everyone
around me assumed that I would just like take to
it like a duck to water or whatever. And I
(22:35):
was so frightened of every single thing that I didn't
It was hard to have fun when you're so hyper
vigilant and you feel like if you're not watching or
you're not doing it, or you're not there, you know
that something will happen. And that's like your sole responsibility
on this earth, you know, is to make sure that
(22:55):
nothing does.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
It's actually really oppressive, and it's funny because I just
like there is no father who feels any of that, right.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
Yeah, that's true. I mean I would always say to
my husband, like, you go to work, and like then
your brain just like goes to work, you know, Like,
but everything I do to this day, my brain is
still thinking about my kids, even though they're thirteen, nine
and seven.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
You know, like when even if you were out the
door at work, you would be making like to do
list of things your kids.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
Yeah, or like if I'm even out to dinner, I'm
still you know, like oh, wait, is did I remind
him to take to bad? I did it?
Speaker 2 (23:32):
You know, like and I listen, you're a home couldn't
function without it, by the way.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
No, And I you know, I I part of that.
I really am thankful for because like that hyper vigilance,
that sensitivity. I think, even though this is maybe like
my insanity speaking makes me a better mom. I don't know,
but you know, I I.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
That's why I can't give it up either. But I wonder. Yeah,
I'm like, maybe it makes me a worse mom because
I'm like of hovering, nervous wreck.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
But yeah, I feel like my middle is the most
well adjusted because I was so distracted an insane. So
my oldest is three and a half years older than
my middle. I had a miscarriage in between them, and
that then sent me back into like a full full
full tail spin, like I don't I think, like I
(24:28):
was so naive to not even really like because I
had already had ace and I was like, oh this,
I'll just do it again. And I was convinced actually
and this is like one hundred percent not I don't
know this to be true. I don't know, but I'd
gone to see the doctor for my like, you know,
first appointment, and he had said to me, I really
want you to get a flu shot. I'd never gotten
a flu shot before. And I got the flu shot,
(24:49):
and then I miscarried two days later, which I don't
know if that's like and I'm not like, trust me,
I believe in vaccines and all the things, but I
don't do flu shots. And I I always was like,
that was it, that was it, But I think that
was just like trying to pinpoint why it happened. And
I'd had more. I had more after that, but not
but in between my after my third, I had had
(25:11):
a few.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
Did you go to the same doctor I did?
Speaker 1 (25:14):
I went to the same doctor I went to. So
my oldest is thirteen, my middle is nine. So there
are three and a half years apart, and then my
youngest and my middle are two years apart, exactly because
I started trying so quickly after that because I knew
I wanted to have three and I was scared i'd
have more miscarriages, and then I just got pregnant, and
(25:35):
so they like they literally are four days apart. Because
I was like, you know, panic.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
You went for it.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
I sure did, and and I you know, it's the
one thing in my life that I really I felt
like up until recently, I was like really good at
you know, like I didn't have like any of these
like I don't know, I didn't have like a talent
(26:03):
that I thought, like, I'm not like a great artist,
I'm not, you know, Like, but I loved being I
love I love being a mom, and so so to
have the mix of the two, to like have all
this insane anxiety sort of weighing me down, not letting
me be whoever it is that I want to be,
whether it's a mom or whatever else, and then also
wanting so badly to be this version of whatever in
(26:25):
my brain I thought it were supposed to look like.
Is just the biggest mind known to mankind.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
I'm sure. Yeah, expectation versus reality, and like, your reality
not matching what you always thought it would is really heartbreaking. Yeah,
no matter what genre of heartbreak you know, about motherhood
or about anything anything.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
And I hope that every single person reads this book
because oh, thank.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
You me too, it really is. Then read it.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
I'm like, I gave it to my husband last night.
When I finished it, I was like, here, I want
you to read it because I was like, I think
you'll understand in a way because they can never understand,
you know, like they can try their best and they
can have the best intentions, but it's impossible.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
It's yeah, it's so hard that even I think as women,
it's hard to empathize with other women before you've gone
through it yourself, you know, like you just have. You
almost don't have the capacity for knowing what something as
big as motherhood is like until you've entered into it yourself.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
Do you guys still come to LA a lot?
Speaker 2 (27:27):
We do? We come out a lot. I was there,
We were there for Christmas in years, and I was
there last month too, in February. I mean my because
of the fires, my book tour events that were meant
to be Like at the end of week one, I
have three nights in LA were need to be rescheduled
because I obviously couldn't come to them. So I'm trying
(27:48):
to if.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
You need anyone else to host one for you, I
would leve.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
To, Oh, thank you, that'd be awesome. I'll give you updated.
I've got to like figure out I don't even know
what long of them to do that. You know, we're
still but I.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
Know, I saw that you were in Monacito with Jordana.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
I did Monasito, which was amazing. Godmother's Bookstore is so
it's amazing.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
My friend Sam, that's her. Yeah, it's such an amazing place.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
It's beautiful and you're lucky, and it was so like
Monasito is obviously ideal. And then and I did a
bookstore in Francisco called womb House. Well it's actually in
Oaklands called Womhouse. That was extremely cool and I'm still
missing my l a part of the West Coast.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
It was, I mean, that was the craziest time ever.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
It was and the people like dming me, being like,
are you still calming? And I was like, no, no, no.
I watched the news.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
We had to move my son's bar mitzvah. Wow we did,
but we just did it last weekend and it was
heaven on Earth.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
It tell me everything.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
It was. I'm depressed. I'm so sad it's over. It
was so fun.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
It was, well, you get to do another you have
two other kids, You're not done.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
I'm not done. It was so fun. But he was
so into playing, like he was just so into it,
and it was cute, you know, as they get older,
it's so how old is guy seven?
Speaker 2 (29:13):
By seven?
Speaker 1 (29:14):
Yeah, so Gus is my guess is seven to He
was May twenty seventeen. And it's funny because Ace, you
have a boy and a girl, But Ace and Jewels
are like very similar. They're into the kind of the
same things, like hardcore wrap sports. And then Gus is
literally Liza Minelli, like he just came out and it
is just just like the way that these people come
(29:37):
into the world is exactly how they're meant to be,
you know, like they just are who they are.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
I know. I I think a lot about how like
there's so much bad stuff happening in the world, and
I look at all of these grown up men who
are causing so much pain, and I'm like, if you
could just remember what it was like to be you
when you are six.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
It's probably too painful for them. And they haven't had
any therapy.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
Yeah, but little boy, little six, seven eight year old
little boys are so pure and loving and they just
are perfectly who they are and they don't question themselves
and there's no insecurity and there's no ego and they're
just like kind and delightful and full of love and
they look at the world, they find their passion and
(30:27):
they become obsessed with things and they're so like wonderful,
and I'm just like, why can't adults all be more
like that? I know, what?
Speaker 1 (30:35):
Is guy into.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Skateboarding trying to get me to let him watch the
movie Scream, which is never gonna happen.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
My dad is in that movie?
Speaker 2 (30:43):
What? Oh my god, Well, my son's obsessed with it.
He thinks that I'm gonna let him walk every year.
I'm like, maybe next year.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
He has the mask at his house. When you guys
come to La, you can see he can see.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
My kid's favorite mask. He's been this guy from Scream
every year for Halloweens. And so was like four, and
I'm like, so fun, you're seven, you're not watching it.
I watched it when I was thirteen in the movie theaters,
and I was never the same, Like.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
I know, I cannot watch scary movies. I just cannot
do it.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
No, no, I'm so triggered by it. Any movie with
like an animal getting hurt, a small child getting hurt.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
No, no I won't, I cannot.
Speaker 2 (31:18):
I won't.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
Yeah, no, no, no, I won't.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
But actually, when they are so obsessed with scary movies.
It's like so off limits to them, but they're advertised
for that's amazing, though, oh yeah, he's like seen signs
for it. There was like a newer one, I guess
in the subway, so he thought, you really wanted to
watch Scream, but he I let him watch. One of
my best friends directed a movie that's for like twelve
(31:40):
year old little boys called The Scouts Guide to the
Zombie Apocalypse. I don't know if you if any of
your kids have seen that. It's now darling. It's great.
It's like a really well made.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
Okay, we'll do it. I'm like family scary.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
Movie for kids. But I let my kid watch it
when he was like five maybe, and I got a
freaking call from his kindergarten being like, your son is
either really creative or he's been actually allowed to watch
a movie where a zombie eats a woman's ass, And
I was like, yeah, I did let him, and.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
That's okay. Guess is obsessed with mean girls, which I
let him watch.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
And that's totally acceptable.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
That education, it's not, and he, you know, is he
they go to They all go to the same school,
but the upper school campus is on it is like
two streets away, and he called his brother a dirty rat,
an ugly rat or something, and you know, being funny.
But I guess apparently it wasn't funny to Chules. But
(32:50):
you know, we do our best.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
Whatever keeps him entertained off the time. But he's that
kid's not watching screams while he's at least like eleven.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
No, it's scary. It was terrified.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
It's so scary, all of them. I still have parts
of all of them. And I'm forty, so I know.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
No, how did your husband what was like when he
first read it? I mean, he sounds like the most
supportive human being, and he encouraged you to write this book.
But was it hard for him to kind of relive
those moments too?
Speaker 2 (33:23):
It was funny because I don't think it was hard
from like like, uh, I don't think it like hurt
his feelings.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
No, for him being a dick.
Speaker 2 (33:31):
Yeah, maybe it embarrassed him a little bit, But I
think that he was really interested to read it totally
from my perspective, because he was just like, umlike any
grown up can understand this, Like it was not his experience, right,
the way he experienced me being so depressed and stuff.
Was just that I hated him, Like he was like
(33:54):
I thought you just like were over it and wanted
to divorce and wanted out of this relationship. Like he
had no idea that there was being deeper at play, which,
by the way, NAO did I It's not like I
was sitting there going, oh my god, this postpartum depression
is the cause of all of my like anger and rage,
and I have to process that, like I didn't have
mastery over my feelings. All I thought about was just
(34:16):
I was like filled with pure hate, you know, And
that's all he read. He just thought that I was
that I despised him. And it is crazy how like
two people who are so close, who live in the
same house, who spend all this time together blah blah blah,
can still have like vastly different interpretations of a shared experience.
(34:38):
And so I think it was like I think more
than anything, he was like curious to know minute by
minute what it was like from my perspective, and that
was kind of fun.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
Like when he read it, did you just like watch
him reading it?
Speaker 2 (34:51):
Yeah? And also I mean I remember he like printed
it out punched holds in it and like put it
in a binder so it wasn't just like a PDOF
on this phone, because this was, you know, before or
we had. This was a really long time ago. Like
he's read every draft and he was like, this is
a page churner, and I was like, because it's about
you and me, so like it's fun for you to read,
(35:13):
you know, like we don't know what it's like for
other people, but I keep hearing from people like you,
which is so kind to be Like, no, I couldn't
put it down literally, like maybe he was right, like
even strangers feel that way. I assume I had a thought,
well he's saying that, but it's just because like he's
in it and he knows all the characters and whatever.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
But I know you're so deep in this book, but
I'm like, when's the next.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
I loved it one thing. Yeah, I literally loved every
minute of it because it felt so relatable and even
though you know too and we're complete strangers, and it
felt relatable and so many things like I need so
many notes in my phone, which I've never done, like
(35:58):
you know, and I'd also like to know what's the
five step oral care process that you do.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
Oh my gosh, it's not that exciting. Don't worry. I
use a really strong water pic, okay, which I think
is like kind of the most important part. Honestly, I
love a water pic. My husband like hacked this water
pick and attached it to a Mikita battery, which is
incredibly powerful, so it like blasts water out. And then
(36:24):
I floss, and then I brush, and I do not
like an electric toothbrush. And then I tongue scrape okay,
and then I use a very particular mouth flash it's
like alcohol free and blah blah. I can't remember the
name right now, but I can send you a picture.
And I do not like coconut oil pulling. That does
(36:49):
not work for me.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
Okay, yeah, Because I was going to ask, because I
wrote that was in my notes, what is the fire
non negotiable oral care?
Speaker 2 (36:56):
Yeah, And everyone's like, well, have you thought about adding
oil pulling? And I'm like, yeah, it's the grossest thing
I ever tried to do. I'm not really.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
I couldn't do it. It made me like I felt
like I was gonna throw up.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
I was like, this isn't gonna the benefits of that.
There's no way the benefits outweigh how like horrible doing
it is. I would rather just go to the dentist
one or two more times a year for extra things.
Have to do this?
Speaker 1 (37:20):
Yeah, it's dorrial. And are you still friends with Petunia
and Augusta? Yeah, for sure, they're such good friends, I know,
really good friends.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
I'm so lucky. And you know, there are certain like aspects,
not aspects of their characters really, but maybe like stories
that I had experienced with other friends that I wove
into their stories in this book, because like you know,
I would have one conversation with one person that didn't
justify them being a whole character, but I wanted some
aspects of it. But I hope that you could tell,
(37:49):
like they're really three dimensional, real people who like really
mattered to you. Yeah, I'm so lucky. I have really
strong female friendships in New York and I'm not from here,
so like it took a lot to develop those. But
it's really, I realized, just so essential because you I mean,
(38:09):
you're from LA but like even so, I don't know
how close you live with your parents. It's just so
nice to like have your own community. Yeah, it's a
family you make.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
It's a family you choose. I mean, I love my family.
I live two minutes away from my parents actually, but
I have all my best friends from growing up. We
call each other the Lifers. There's seven of us, wow,
and we're super tight. And so to make a friend
as an adult has been like such a privilege, and
it's so rare because like you meet people and then
(38:43):
you're like, oh, I like them so much, and then
you're like, oh, wait, they're so weird or they do
something you know, or there's like something else here. Yeah,
there's just like something this at least, like I know,
we know are crazy. And so I've made some friends
as an adult, and like those friends are just as
important to me as my friends that I've been friends
with since I was, you know, seven years old and
I'm forty four.
Speaker 2 (39:02):
So, oh, you're so lucky. You must have a huge
group of friends.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
I'm so lucky. But also, like these friends that I've
made as an adult, one of them was just here.
She moved to DC. She actually also works in art,
and she just had her fortieth birthday and she came
out to LA and I threw a dinner for a
mister Chown. It was so fun and I was like,
I've only known you for eight years, and I feel
like I feel like you're like my sister. Like I
(39:29):
feel like I've known you my whole life. And I
think that meeting friends as an adult or at different
stages in your life is so important because I'm so
different than I was when I was seven and met
you know, my lifers.
Speaker 2 (39:40):
Yeah, it really allows you to evolve. Yeah, and helps
you to evolve, and like, I don't know, I'm sure
you have also really widened your circle with your nonprofit.
I feel like when you find your passion and like
the thing that makes you light up, you know, outside
of motherhood and stuff. Yeah, you can develop like a
(40:01):
whole new circle of people based on Like my great
love since I was a kid has been ballet. But I,
after realizing I wasn't going to be a professional dancer,
stepped away from it in any capacity until maybe like
the last ten years when I had a little more
money and could, like you know, donated for it. And
(40:24):
but it's brought so many Wait, by the way, as
your friend Brady.
Speaker 1 (40:30):
No, but Brady's best friend Emily.
Speaker 2 (40:32):
Okay, so funny because I was going to say I
think Brady just from forty, lives in DC and works
in art.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
So like Brady Brady's Brady's good friend in DC is
Emily Esher Amazing. Okay, yeah, and I like Brady Brady
and I met. Brady and I met when we were
both pregnant with our third in Palm Springs at a hotel.
We were seated next to each other and we were
both just like exasperated and we started talking. And then
my friend Emily moved to d C and became super
(40:57):
close with Brady.
Speaker 2 (40:58):
Small freaking world, I know, girl. Wow, Okay. I love
developing new friendships with people who like share my passion
because I can like fully nerd out and have you know,
now I have my like ballet board friends and stuff
like that, and I can like it's like people to
do this thing, this weird, niche thing that I love
(41:20):
so much with like go sit at the ballet and
like analyze every minute of it after and you know,
it's like I don't know, men finding someone they love
to talk sports with or something.
Speaker 1 (41:30):
Yeah, it's it's so important.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
Yeah, it's a real gift as a woman to find
that level of connection, and obviously was like a huge
part of my journey and really important, but it takes
a lot of work. You know, Like women have so
much on their plates because we're all so like culturally
trained to be incredible executive functioning multitaskers, and we take
on everything because it's just like easier than trying to
get your husband to do it. So we all have
(41:55):
so much going on. It's like, I think it's really
hard for a lot of women, especially if they don't
have the modeling of their mother being very social, it
can be really hard to like know how to develop
and keep up strong female relationships. Like my mom didn't
have a lot of friends growing up. She was kind
of you know, I don't my mom was I think
an anomaly in her community. Like she worked outside of
(42:17):
the home in the nineties in Indiana. When people read
the book, they'll know this, And she didn't have a
huge group of female friends. And I never like she
didn't model behavior for you know, she wasn't throwing dinners
at home, She wasn't having book club at home for
her girlfriends. She wasn't organizing dinners out for them. Like
I didn't really have modeling for how to develop really
(42:38):
close adult female friendships and kind of had to like
make it up on my own. But I determined soon
after moving to New York, like it was very important
for my happiness here because I was so deeply lonely
when I left my family and felt like ripped from
them by just going to college, which is you know,
totally normal, but like because I'm old, like I didn't
(43:01):
have like an iPhone, and I remember just being so
lonely and being like, all right, well, you're going to
have to make like real friends here if you expect
this to work out, because it's a cold, lonely place otherwise.
And it's just been like the most important thing to
me as to live in New York is to have
as many awesome girlfriends as possible. And people think New
Yorkers are mean and New York is a scary place.
(43:21):
It's the nicest women ever because it's easier plan totally,
there's so many opportunities to be social. It's not I
don't have to and everyone most people here are transplants,
so they're so excited to like also make friends. And
most people here work and are really committed to their work,
so you like need for networking purposes, even if it's
(43:43):
just that transactional. You actually like need lots of relationships
to get anything done. You know, That's what people say.
I've never lived there, you know, as an adult. But
that's like people, especially for dating. People I know who
moved to LA are like, oh my god, I know.
Speaker 1 (43:59):
I mean, I husband and I have been together now,
will be married sixteen years together for twenty. Like there
wasn't even like really a dating app except for like
Jay Date, I don't think. So it's like I can't
even imagine what that looks like now. And it's not
like you can just like go out and go to
a bar and like walk, you know, walk to get
a drink with a friend. It's just not like that.
Like my friends who live in Hancock Park, I live
on the West Side, Like I never see you know
(44:22):
what I mean. Like, it's just so different than living
in the city. You can just there's so many more
opportunities to be social.
Speaker 2 (44:30):
Do come to New York a lot?
Speaker 1 (44:32):
Yeah, I come to New York a lot. One of
our lifers moved there, so we all come visit her.
Speaker 2 (44:39):
Yeah, my god, yeah, to New York.
Speaker 1 (44:41):
She moved to New York. She met her husband, who's born
and raised in New York and he his whole family's there.
He lives there, he works there. They actually live in
the Hamptons now they go back and forth. But during
COVID they moved out there and it was like my
first time ever experiencing the Hamptons, which is like a
whole other thing, which I much prefer in the fall
rather than summer. My husband and I were like, what
(45:01):
is this place? And we never want to go back
in the summer. We like, couldn't.
Speaker 2 (45:05):
I'm very busy. Yeah, do you feel like Malibu gets
busy like that Malibou or Hampton's.
Speaker 1 (45:10):
Yeah, but it's like you're not sitting in a car
the whole time. You're not like there's not a bunch
of like finance bros. Like you know, it's just different.
It's just like more like a beachy thing than it is. Like, Yeah,
but I loved round Swamp Farm. I really loved it
and wanted to bring it to La.
Speaker 2 (45:26):
I don't like have a house in Anson's or anything,
so I've only been there a couple I've been there
like twice, Like I don't.
Speaker 1 (45:31):
Know, Yeah, it was really it was like an experience,
but you know, yeah, but I love the city. And
I love the city in the summer.
Speaker 2 (45:39):
Oh duh. Yeah, when you like don't have to wear
clothes and you could walk over there.
Speaker 1 (45:43):
You just like walk everywhere and then you shower, and
then you walk everywhere and then you shower. I love it.
Speaker 2 (45:48):
I timed this worth very well because I had her
in the middle. Well, I was meant to have her
in May, and I just got to like walk around
with her all summer and where you know, put her
little like lightweight lace cotton stuff on her and like
not worry about her being folds. And yeah, summer here
is very special and I love it even late in
the summer when it empties out. Get a reservation anywhere anywhere.
Speaker 1 (46:11):
I loved it. Yeah, yeah, we can visit a lot.
Do you know Sarah moon Bess at all?
Speaker 2 (46:16):
I do. Yeah, she's my.
Speaker 1 (46:17):
Brother's very best friend.
Speaker 2 (46:19):
Oh my god.
Speaker 1 (46:21):
Yeah, she's like my little sister.
Speaker 2 (46:23):
All right, Well, next time you're here, we'll have drincks.
Yeah we will.
Speaker 1 (46:27):
Thank you for doing this. I am such a fan,
like a crazy fan's yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:32):
You okay, Well I let you know when I come
to La too.
Speaker 1 (46:35):
Yeah for sure. Okay, show this guy the screen mask. Bye, Okay, Bye,
Thank you so much for listening to another episode of
What in the Winkler. These like share posts tell a friend,
we can't wait to see you back next week. Bye,
You are listening to What in the Winkler and iHeartRadio podcast. Hi,
welcome back to What in the Winkler. I am so
excited today. Sarah Hoover is on the podcast. Sarah is
a best selling author, art historian, and cultural critic. Her
memoir The Motherload Episodes From the Brink of Motherhood debut
on USA Today's National best Selling book list. It is
(00:24):
now available everywhere you buy books and audiobooks. She holds
a master's degree in cultural theory from Colombia and a
BA in art history from NYU. I am obsessed with
her and I am going to have a full fan
girl moment. So let's let her in.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Hi.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Hi, Oh my god, thank you so much for doing this.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Of course. How's it going.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
It's going so well. I'm obsessed with your book.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Thank you. It.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
I like put light, I like used a ball hyelighter.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Oh my gosh, thank you.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
I made notes in my phone app as I was
reading it. So I am just so excited to talk
to you about it.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Oh my gosh, thank you. That's so nice of you.
I'm excited to talk to you too. How's the podcast going.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
It's good, you know, originally it was my mom and
I and my mom and I have a very I mean,
I think it's so bizarre because I don't know you.
I think we have a lot of friends in common,
but I feel like I know everything about you, So
I feel like we have similar moms, but I don't
know her, never met her, I never met You's.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Funny because I always thought like my mom and I
were so like my you know, my mom's a unique
person whatever, But almost every single woman on my book
to her has been like, my mom is exactly like yours,
even though I don't know your mom, and I'm like,
I think all moms are just kind of alike.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Yeah, and I think you know, I my mom just
like hates feeling the neediness, is like it repulses her
when it comes for me at least, and so yeah,
we just like but now, I mean, as I'm I'm
for before and we're so incredibly close. But she got
really really sick in November and almost died. And I
(02:10):
was thinking about, like when I was reading your book
and those parts about your mom and like crying about
your mom dying when not even like when she was
still very much here and alive. And then I thought
about how like all these moments in your book that
feels so like lonely, but then you actually get through them.
That that's the biggest part. That's the scariest part, is
(02:30):
like how will I handle this? And then as you
go through it, obviously my mom is okay now, thank god,
but you realize like you can sort of get through
these moments, which is like when you're in them, you
feel like you're drowning and you feel like you have
to like ask other people around if you're losing your mind,
you know. Yeah, and so did you you have two kids?
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Now? I have two kids. Yeah, I have a little
girl who's probably going to walk in and you might
even see her, but she's ten months old.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
And is Sharon back.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Yes, I have the same baby nurse this time the
same maybe. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
I loved my baby nurse so much.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Yeah, it's a really special relationship.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
It is. I had the same one with the second
I have three kids. I had the same one, but
the first one I actually she stopped doing it, but
I loved her so much. And I remember my best
friend coming over and visiting me from New York, and
I just had Ace, who's my oldest who's thirteen, and
I said to her. She was wearing an orange scarf,
and I was like, do you mind giving that to Christine?
(03:31):
Who's my favorite? And she was like, what do you mean.
I was like, well, orange is her favorite color, and
you're wearing an orange scarf, and I just feel like
you should give it to her. She was like, are
you you lost your mind?
Speaker 2 (03:40):
You're like, yes, yes I have, but yeah, important thing
from now on is that my baby nurse is happy,
so and so that's just how it's going to go.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Time did you go? Are you going to write another book?
Speaker 2 (03:51):
I need? Well, I would love to, but I am
still like very much in this book. You know, I'm
not I'm not on with my book tour and stuff,
so I haven't had time to like make it to
do list.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
How does it feel having it out in the world.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
It's good, I you know, there are disappointments. It's a
roller coaster like anything else, and it's strange to have
it out in the world. In a lot of ways,
I don't know what I expected the response to be,
but I knew from like the minute that I started
writing it that it felt really urgent and important to me,
(04:33):
and like I faced obviously endless rejection of people being
like you're not a writer, you know, we don't want
this book, et cetera, as I think like any any
new writer does. But I always was like, this has
to be published, Like there are so many women that
are like me that don't feel seen and are lonely
(04:54):
and think that they're alone and think that no one
else experiences this, and like I have to, you know,
continue down this path, even though so many people told
me I would never get a book published, et cetera.
So it always I always knew that it would like
find its people, you know, and I didn't know if
that would be a lot of people are like four people,
(05:15):
but I knew that it would find people who needed
to hear what it said. And it has and that
isn't like a surprise to me. I guess the surprise
has been in like how big that number is. But
my like big takeaway from I've been on I was
on tour for a month. I just got back last week,
and like, my biggest takeaway has been the like sheer magnitude.
(05:38):
How many women have experienced something so completely like life
altering and have not really had an outlet to discuss
it how lonely they are. And I've had women like
in their seventies and eighties say I didn't ever in
my thirties, forties or fifties, the language to like describe
(06:01):
these feelings did not exist yet even among your best
friends and like your intimates, you weren't talking about this
kind of stuff. And until I read your book, I
didn't realize that I, like have had postpartum depression since
I had my kids, and that I never connected with
them because I was depressed, and I like didn't realize
it till now. And they have women who have for
(06:22):
forty years been mentally unwell after the birth of their
firstborn and have had just like had to live life
without finding solace and a narrative that made sense for them.
So it's weird to have it out there. But I
did always know what would find its home among its people.
I just I didn't know that it would be like
so many people and people of different ages and stuff
(06:43):
like that, you know, but I knew it was important.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
I feel like, you read all these books or you
go to these classes on how to have the baby,
but nine times out of ten you're in a hospital,
so you're like yeah, you know that part, but then
you bring this baby home and nobody really talks about that.
And I mean in therapy since I was six and
I was certainly not prepared, and I was a preschool
teacher before I had kids, and I thought like, oh,
(07:07):
I got this, this is going to be And I
had such severe postpartum anxiety. And so when you write
about your husband dropping the baby at the chateau outside
and the rage you felt, I felt that, like at
every moment that my husband would miss step, even though
you know it was an accident or whatever, or it
(07:29):
wasn't even but like it was so disproportionate to what
was happening in the moment that but I didn't it
didn't feel like postpartum, because postpartum felt like you would
just be like I want to kill my baby.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
Hine all day or whatever. Yeah. I mean, I wonder
if you felt more like acknowledged and seen for what
you had gone through, and of women on mass were
more appreciated for the toll that childbirth takes and how
like difficult it is to bring healthy life into the world.
I wonder if the rage would feel the same, because like,
(08:05):
in retrospect, yeah, my rage was disproportionate, but it wasn't
just really about that one time that the baby got dropped.
It was about the fact that I felt like the
whole world was just like, yep, business as usual, you
had a baby, No who cares, you know, And I
found it to be like such a massive rupture, and
it was so much grander and more complex than anyone
(08:25):
had ever explained to me. So like, in a way
of the rage was justified because I was like, you
don't get any of it. You know, I'm mad about everything.
I'm mad about so much more than just this like
little mistake.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
And then I would feel like almost I would feel
so it was like this self fulfilling prophecy because then
i'd feel guilty about being upset or acting out or
because everyone's like, you're so emotional, you're you know. So
it was like this whole I don't know, it just
didn't feel ever like I felt misunderstood and I didn't
(08:59):
feel like and I hate that feeling more than anything.
I think people like to be seen and like to
feel understood, and so.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
I think it was such a feeling.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
It's a terrible feeling. And I think that your book
makes people feel seen, and and it's in such a
way where it's it's like you you feel, it's like
an intimate I don't know. When I read it, I
felt like I listened to it on audible. Then I
would come home and like wherever I left off, I
would read it. Yeah, before I loved I'd never done
(09:32):
that before. I'm not like a huge reader, I I
I'm not. I don't. I haven't found like a book
that I feel like, I like devoured it and I
just think that that is such an incredible.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
It's just you're so talented. Obviously you know that, but
it was just.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
I don't know that. I mean, that's really nice. I
don't my I like never cared if at the end
of it someone was like, you're a really good writer,
Like that doesn't matter to me. Anything that mattered was
that I knew I had something to say that felt
really important, and I wanted to write it in a
way that like the most people would read it mm hmmm,
(10:12):
because I thought, obviously that would me and would have
the greatest impact. And to me that was like conversational
and lively and propulsive and like would make you want
to turn the page and keep going. So I really
a goal was to like write it in my real
life voice, which and you did? I mean that sounds
like it would be easy. Well you kind of do,
I mean you listen to it on the audio book, Yeah,
(10:33):
I did.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
I did?
Speaker 2 (10:33):
You know. I wanted it to feel like you were
sitting in a room with me, like having a conversation
kind of. And that sounds so easy, Like we should
all be able to write the way we think the
way it's so but it's so hard.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
It's so hard train yourself to do.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
It's so difficult.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
And it felt like you were, you know, in all,
Like it just felt like you were there with you,
you know.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
It really Wait, I started watching The New White Lotus
last night, which I don't know I've watched hip I had,
and it's set in Thailand. But the monkeys are like
a whole character in that in that TV show, it's.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
Really exactly what they're talking about when I watch it
tonight after.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
My kid's good a bit.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
It's funny though, when you talk about the hotels. It's
like a running joke with all of my best friends,
my whole family that I find something disgusting in every hotel.
I can name like two hotels in the world that
I've never been upset about. And so and I was like,
see it happens to other people, because my husband will
be like, you look for things, and I'm like, are
(11:38):
you out of your mind? Like I just find you. Yeah,
I'm not, like I hope today I find something disgusting.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
I know, I know it's really unfortunate, but at the
end of the day, even the fancy hotels are like
beyond hundreds of people have stayed in that room.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
You know, when you got in that bathtub, I was like,
you are a brave lady fold move.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
I know. Never have I done that again?
Speaker 1 (11:59):
So no, I know. So do you feel did you
feel when you were having your second? Were you worried
about because I felt for me that like my transition
to one child was way harder than my transition to
two or three because I was so terrified and so
everyone thinks it's crazy when I say that, But did
you feel the same or.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
Wait, I have a question. You have three? Did you
were they all? How do I say this? Like did
you grow up thinking? I mean, you were a preschool teacher,
so maybe like were you like I really want kids,
Like all I ever.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Wanted, Okay, all I ever wanted was to be a mom.
I didn't have, Like I mean, I wasn't. I wasn't
like I can't wait, I didn't have, which is so
sad now because now I have a really successful nonprofit
that I work really hard on. But I never had
dreams of like a career ever. I just wanted to
be a mom. And then when I got to the mom, no,
(12:51):
but it is a little because then your kids get
older and there's like but when I when I had Ace,
and I would see like these women walking down the
street with like a yoga mat and a stroller and
I couldn't even figure out how to cross Santa Senny
to get to the country mart In Brentwood because there
was no lights. That my therapist to this day will
still be like, are you having a crossing Sambasenny moment?
I can't, you know, Like I felt like such a loser,
(13:14):
you know, And I wish that there had been something
like this, like this book that would have made me
feel like, wait, this is normal, because nobody in my
baby group was saying these things.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
No, what do you think that I'm someone in their
that group felt it.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
One hundred percent, you know, one hundred percent. But when
I felt it, actually, my friend Casey Crown, who is
like a healer now, and she I go to her
like she I sort of like. She tells the story
about the first time meeting me. I step out, my
baby nurses in the car and I'm like, he cried
the whole way from Beverly Hills to Santa Monica. We'd
never met before. I didn't even tell her my name
(13:48):
and she never She was like, you scared me so
that I never went back to the class.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Oh my god, I was really scared. With the second look,
there was a big stretch between my two kids because
I Misscarrie and I had to do IVF. There was
(14:15):
a lot of work to get to be pregnant again.
So by the time I got pregnant again, I had
like been in therapy for years. I had processed everything
a million different ways. I've been in all different kinds
of therapy, and I knew that I could not have
a repeat of the first time around, or that I
would die like there was no I knew how bad
(14:35):
it had been, so I really put a lot of
like safeguards in place. For myself so that it wouldn't
happen the second time, and it did it. But important
for me was having a non traumatic birth and having
like every system I could think of in place to
make sure that I had a positive experience. I had
a very terrible pregnancy the second time. I was on
(15:00):
medical bed rest for four months, oh wow. And I
at the very end developed coolest stasis of the liver,
which can be is fatal at thirty seven weeks so
I delivered, was induced very early, and I had morning
sickness till the day I delivered, and like just you know,
it was one of those pregnancies that just was just rough,
(15:21):
and because birth is birth, it was also bloody and
painful and scary and all the things you would expect.
But none of it was traumatic, and none of it
made me depressed or triggered any sort of like emotional issues.
(15:43):
I wouldn't even say I had. I had some anxiety
this time, but not to the point where I got
in the way of my life. And it was just
a totally different experience. But I really attribute a lot
of it. I had a huge perspective shift, of course,
because I like, this baby was so wanted I worked
so hard to get her. I had, you know, just
(16:04):
processed a lot, so I like was coming at it
from a place of being like, this might be your
last time. You just got to like go with the
flow on this one. And you know, if I had
been put on medical bed dress the first time around,
I would have lost my mind. I think I would
have died, that I would have killed myself. But this time,
I just would lay in bed every day and just think,
you know, you get your baby at the end of this.
(16:25):
And I had a lot of patience and a lot
of perspective. But the real, like important piece of the
puzzle for me was that when I was looking for
a new obe or new care, because I also interviewed midwives,
I like brought a list of things that I required
for the care to feel empathetic and like trauma informed
and the kind of the kind of medicine that I
(16:49):
knew I needed to have a really happy and like
spiritual birth experience, and a lot of doctors like simply
would not comply with the requirements that I had. There
are doctors who like where like, we don't allow dulas
no matter what. And I was like, well, I'm having
a doula, so I won't be delivering with you. You know,
there are some really unmodern doctors that I interviewed, but
(17:10):
I found one that was like willing to go with
my needs and it made all the difference. It made
it for a really positive experience, and I just I
was like happy the whole time. I think also, like.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
That that's so huge that you a lot of people
don't have perspective shifts, even if it gets better. You
know that you just were able to change your whole
perspective because it's really hard to do.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Yeah, I worked to add it a lot. M I
worked at it a lot. I did like five or
six different modalities of therapy and picked up therapeutic practices,
meditation and journaling and blah blah blah. Like I worked
really hard. I did not ever want to go back
to that dark place. And I also I was not
(17:56):
on I don't take anti depressants now, but I was
like willing to go back on if I needed them.
And I just was like really open minded to doing
whatever it took to be in a positive place. And
I just had so many more resources like I was
in therapy. And however, I have a really good friend
who had incredibly severe postpartum depression after all three of
(18:18):
her births, so bad that she was institution She institutionalized
herself after her second and I didn't, like, actually think
that that was possible, because after the first I thought, like,
now you know what to do, like if you start
feeling sad again, like you get on antidepressants and you
go to therapy and you do this, Matt and she
was like, yeah, except the second time for me, none
(18:38):
of it worked, which is so terrifying to me. Like
antidepressants in my mind were a last ditch effort, Like
they weren't. I didn't want to have to be on
medicine for forever. But once I got around to the
idea that it would do you hear my baby, Yeah,
if you get around to the idea that it I'll
(18:58):
bring her over here. You get her if you got
around to the idea that, Like, I had a great
stigma against antidepressants at the beginning, and then I sort
of got over that and was like, this is the
only chance you have a happiness. So I started taking
them and got over my you know, preconceived notions of
what that meant. And once I did, and they were
(19:21):
like a huge life saver for me. I considered them
an option for the future if I needed them. Like
I weaned off of them after a while, but I
considered them an option and the like. It didn't occur
to me that later on they could like quit working
and not function for you anymore. And I feel like
so bad for my friends who had gone through it
all had like found her way out, and then the
(19:41):
disease changed for her with her second and third and
she had to literally like go into an institution, into
a it was an outpatient program, but in at a
hospital in LA because she just like couldn't get better
and nothing was working, which is so terrifying. Yeah, it is.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
I was on I mean I'd been on medication since
I was well, and then I went off because I thought,
like at my first with Ace, my oldest, I was like,
I have to go off when I get pregnant. And
then with my other two after, you know, I finally
went back on because I literally mine was like health related.
I kept thinking I was going to die or he
was going to die someone, you know, And I went
(20:17):
back on it, and I stayed on it for my
second two pregnancies, and I couldn't have made it without it,
and I was so tired of then I was worried
because I was worried, and I remember the doctor and
I think someone you're one of your therapists said this
to you. But the doctor that I went to, the psychopharmacologist,
was like, you're here, so you're doing the first thing
as being a good mom, you know, like when your
(20:38):
therapist said to you, well, you're getting the help, you know,
And it's like it's so clouded at that moment that
you don't even realize that showing up and like trying
to do better is the first step in that you're
actually being a great mom and you're you know, but
it's it's really it's so it's the I think it's
something that people just think you're supposed to know all
(21:00):
these things. And I didn't grow up, you know with
my mom really being like the sort of like my
mom's the best and she's so great, but there were
always many people in my house, Like I was never
looking you know, like she was not was never just
like me and her, you know.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Yeah, I didn't have a lot of one on one
time with mine either, Like she wasn't taking me out
to lunch and getting her nails done together and stuff
like that.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
Yeah, I mean, and when we did there were like
special days, but it wasn't like, you know, she wasn't
picking me up from school or I had There were
like a lot of nannies and a lot of so
I didn't really see what that looked like doing it
sort of without that didn't. I didn't know what that
looked like. And I was so scared too. So my
baby nurse was supposed to stay a month and stayed
(21:44):
nine because I couldn't. I was so weirdly attached to
her that I couldn't let her go.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
You know, Yeah, I really just feel sorry for there
are so many women who like don't hug, and like
what do you do when you have no option like that,
when you don't have family close by, you don't own
resources to like have that kind of help, like, and
also you can't complain because you're afraid your baby will
get taken away if you tell someone the truth of
(22:09):
what your mental health looks like and get scared that.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
Your baby's gonna feel it, even though you know, you know,
I mean, at least I was, I was, you know,
so frightened that like somehow it was going to be like, well,
he would know that I didn't really know what I
was doing, But yeah, I think I assumed and everyone
around me assumed that I would just like take to
it like a duck to water or whatever. And I
(22:35):
was so frightened of every single thing that I didn't
It was hard to have fun when you're so hyper
vigilant and you feel like if you're not watching or
you're not doing it, or you're not there, you know
that something will happen. And that's like your sole responsibility
on this earth, you know, is to make sure that
(22:55):
nothing does.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
It's actually really oppressive, and it's funny because I just
like there is no father who feels any of that, right.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
Yeah, that's true. I mean I would always say to
my husband, like, you go to work, and like then
your brain just like goes to work, you know, Like,
but everything I do to this day, my brain is
still thinking about my kids, even though they're thirteen, nine
and seven.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
You know, like when even if you were out the
door at work, you would be making like to do
list of things your kids.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
Yeah, or like if I'm even out to dinner, I'm
still you know, like oh, wait, is did I remind
him to take to bad? I did it?
Speaker 2 (23:32):
You know, like and I listen, you're a home couldn't
function without it, by the way.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
No, And I you know, I I part of that.
I really am thankful for because like that hyper vigilance,
that sensitivity. I think, even though this is maybe like
my insanity speaking makes me a better mom. I don't know,
but you know, I I.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
That's why I can't give it up either. But I wonder. Yeah,
I'm like, maybe it makes me a worse mom because
I'm like of hovering, nervous wreck.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
But yeah, I feel like my middle is the most
well adjusted because I was so distracted an insane. So
my oldest is three and a half years older than
my middle. I had a miscarriage in between them, and
that then sent me back into like a full full
full tail spin, like I don't I think, like I
(24:28):
was so naive to not even really like because I
had already had ace and I was like, oh this,
I'll just do it again. And I was convinced actually
and this is like one hundred percent not I don't
know this to be true. I don't know, but I'd
gone to see the doctor for my like, you know,
first appointment, and he had said to me, I really
want you to get a flu shot. I'd never gotten
a flu shot before. And I got the flu shot,
(24:49):
and then I miscarried two days later, which I don't
know if that's like and I'm not like, trust me,
I believe in vaccines and all the things, but I
don't do flu shots. And I I always was like,
that was it, that was it, But I think that
was just like trying to pinpoint why it happened. And
I'd had more. I had more after that, but not
but in between my after my third, I had had
(25:11):
a few.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
Did you go to the same doctor I did?
Speaker 1 (25:14):
I went to the same doctor I went to. So
my oldest is thirteen, my middle is nine. So there
are three and a half years apart, and then my
youngest and my middle are two years apart, exactly because
I started trying so quickly after that because I knew
I wanted to have three and I was scared i'd
have more miscarriages, and then I just got pregnant, and
(25:35):
so they like they literally are four days apart. Because
I was like, you know, panic.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
You went for it.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
I sure did, and and I you know, it's the
one thing in my life that I really I felt
like up until recently, I was like really good at
you know, like I didn't have like any of these
like I don't know, I didn't have like a talent
(26:03):
that I thought, like, I'm not like a great artist,
I'm not, you know, Like, but I loved being I
love I love being a mom, and so so to
have the mix of the two, to like have all
this insane anxiety sort of weighing me down, not letting
me be whoever it is that I want to be,
whether it's a mom or whatever else, and then also
wanting so badly to be this version of whatever in
(26:25):
my brain I thought it were supposed to look like.
Is just the biggest mind known to mankind.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
I'm sure. Yeah, expectation versus reality, and like, your reality
not matching what you always thought it would is really heartbreaking. Yeah,
no matter what genre of heartbreak you know, about motherhood
or about anything anything.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
And I hope that every single person reads this book
because oh, thank.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
You me too, it really is. Then read it.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
I'm like, I gave it to my husband last night.
When I finished it, I was like, here, I want
you to read it because I was like, I think
you'll understand in a way because they can never understand,
you know, like they can try their best and they
can have the best intentions, but it's impossible.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
It's yeah, it's so hard that even I think as women,
it's hard to empathize with other women before you've gone
through it yourself, you know, like you just have. You
almost don't have the capacity for knowing what something as
big as motherhood is like until you've entered into it yourself.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
Do you guys still come to LA a lot?
Speaker 2 (27:27):
We do? We come out a lot. I was there,
We were there for Christmas in years, and I was
there last month too, in February. I mean my because
of the fires, my book tour events that were meant
to be Like at the end of week one, I
have three nights in LA were need to be rescheduled
because I obviously couldn't come to them. So I'm trying
(27:48):
to if.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
You need anyone else to host one for you, I
would leve.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
To, Oh, thank you, that'd be awesome. I'll give you updated.
I've got to like figure out I don't even know
what long of them to do that. You know, we're
still but I.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
Know, I saw that you were in Monacito with Jordana.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
I did Monasito, which was amazing. Godmother's Bookstore is so
it's amazing.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
My friend Sam, that's her. Yeah, it's such an amazing place.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
It's beautiful and you're lucky, and it was so like
Monasito is obviously ideal. And then and I did a
bookstore in Francisco called womb House. Well it's actually in
Oaklands called Womhouse. That was extremely cool and I'm still
missing my l a part of the West Coast.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
It was, I mean, that was the craziest time ever.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
It was and the people like dming me, being like,
are you still calming? And I was like, no, no, no.
I watched the news.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
We had to move my son's bar mitzvah. Wow we did,
but we just did it last weekend and it was
heaven on Earth.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
It tell me everything.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
It was. I'm depressed. I'm so sad it's over. It
was so fun.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
It was, well, you get to do another you have
two other kids, You're not done.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
I'm not done. It was so fun. But he was
so into playing, like he was just so into it,
and it was cute, you know, as they get older,
it's so how old is guy seven?
Speaker 2 (29:13):
By seven?
Speaker 1 (29:14):
Yeah, so Gus is my guess is seven to He
was May twenty seventeen. And it's funny because Ace, you
have a boy and a girl, But Ace and Jewels
are like very similar. They're into the kind of the
same things, like hardcore wrap sports. And then Gus is
literally Liza Minelli, like he just came out and it
is just just like the way that these people come
(29:37):
into the world is exactly how they're meant to be,
you know, like they just are who they are.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
I know. I I think a lot about how like
there's so much bad stuff happening in the world, and
I look at all of these grown up men who
are causing so much pain, and I'm like, if you
could just remember what it was like to be you
when you are six.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
It's probably too painful for them. And they haven't had
any therapy.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
Yeah, but little boy, little six, seven eight year old
little boys are so pure and loving and they just
are perfectly who they are and they don't question themselves
and there's no insecurity and there's no ego and they're
just like kind and delightful and full of love and
they look at the world, they find their passion and
(30:27):
they become obsessed with things and they're so like wonderful,
and I'm just like, why can't adults all be more
like that? I know, what?
Speaker 1 (30:35):
Is guy into.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Skateboarding trying to get me to let him watch the
movie Scream, which is never gonna happen.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
My dad is in that movie?
Speaker 2 (30:43):
What? Oh my god, Well, my son's obsessed with it.
He thinks that I'm gonna let him walk every year.
I'm like, maybe next year.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
He has the mask at his house. When you guys
come to La, you can see he can see.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
My kid's favorite mask. He's been this guy from Scream
every year for Halloweens. And so was like four, and
I'm like, so fun, you're seven, you're not watching it.
I watched it when I was thirteen in the movie theaters,
and I was never the same, Like.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
I know, I cannot watch scary movies. I just cannot
do it.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
No, no, I'm so triggered by it. Any movie with
like an animal getting hurt, a small child getting hurt.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
No, no I won't, I cannot.
Speaker 2 (31:18):
I won't.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
Yeah, no, no, no, I won't.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
But actually, when they are so obsessed with scary movies.
It's like so off limits to them, but they're advertised
for that's amazing, though, oh yeah, he's like seen signs
for it. There was like a newer one, I guess
in the subway, so he thought, you really wanted to
watch Scream, but he I let him watch. One of
my best friends directed a movie that's for like twelve
(31:40):
year old little boys called The Scouts Guide to the
Zombie Apocalypse. I don't know if you if any of
your kids have seen that. It's now darling. It's great.
It's like a really well made.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
Okay, we'll do it. I'm like family scary.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
Movie for kids. But I let my kid watch it
when he was like five maybe, and I got a
freaking call from his kindergarten being like, your son is
either really creative or he's been actually allowed to watch
a movie where a zombie eats a woman's ass, And
I was like, yeah, I did let him, and.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
That's okay. Guess is obsessed with mean girls, which I
let him watch.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
And that's totally acceptable.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
That education, it's not, and he, you know, is he
they go to They all go to the same school,
but the upper school campus is on it is like
two streets away, and he called his brother a dirty rat,
an ugly rat or something, and you know, being funny.
But I guess apparently it wasn't funny to Chules. But
(32:50):
you know, we do our best.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
Whatever keeps him entertained off the time. But he's that
kid's not watching screams while he's at least like eleven.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
No, it's scary. It was terrified.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
It's so scary, all of them. I still have parts
of all of them. And I'm forty, so I know.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
No, how did your husband what was like when he
first read it? I mean, he sounds like the most
supportive human being, and he encouraged you to write this book.
But was it hard for him to kind of relive
those moments too?
Speaker 2 (33:23):
It was funny because I don't think it was hard
from like like, uh, I don't think it like hurt
his feelings.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
No, for him being a dick.
Speaker 2 (33:31):
Yeah, maybe it embarrassed him a little bit, But I
think that he was really interested to read it totally
from my perspective, because he was just like, umlike any
grown up can understand this, Like it was not his experience, right,
the way he experienced me being so depressed and stuff.
Was just that I hated him, Like he was like
(33:54):
I thought you just like were over it and wanted
to divorce and wanted out of this relationship. Like he
had no idea that there was being deeper at play, which,
by the way, NAO did I It's not like I
was sitting there going, oh my god, this postpartum depression
is the cause of all of my like anger and rage,
and I have to process that, like I didn't have
mastery over my feelings. All I thought about was just
(34:16):
I was like filled with pure hate, you know, And
that's all he read. He just thought that I was
that I despised him. And it is crazy how like
two people who are so close, who live in the
same house, who spend all this time together blah blah blah,
can still have like vastly different interpretations of a shared experience.
(34:38):
And so I think it was like I think more
than anything, he was like curious to know minute by
minute what it was like from my perspective, and that
was kind of fun.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
Like when he read it, did you just like watch
him reading it?
Speaker 2 (34:51):
Yeah? And also I mean I remember he like printed
it out punched holds in it and like put it
in a binder so it wasn't just like a PDOF
on this phone, because this was, you know, before or
we had. This was a really long time ago. Like
he's read every draft and he was like, this is
a page churner, and I was like, because it's about
you and me, so like it's fun for you to read,
(35:13):
you know, like we don't know what it's like for
other people, but I keep hearing from people like you,
which is so kind to be Like, no, I couldn't
put it down literally, like maybe he was right, like
even strangers feel that way. I assume I had a thought,
well he's saying that, but it's just because like he's
in it and he knows all the characters and whatever.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
But I know you're so deep in this book, but
I'm like, when's the next.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
I loved it one thing. Yeah, I literally loved every
minute of it because it felt so relatable and even
though you know too and we're complete strangers, and it
felt relatable and so many things like I need so
many notes in my phone, which I've never done, like
(35:58):
you know, and I'd also like to know what's the
five step oral care process that you do.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
Oh my gosh, it's not that exciting. Don't worry. I
use a really strong water pic, okay, which I think
is like kind of the most important part. Honestly, I
love a water pic. My husband like hacked this water
pick and attached it to a Mikita battery, which is
incredibly powerful, so it like blasts water out. And then
(36:24):
I floss, and then I brush, and I do not
like an electric toothbrush. And then I tongue scrape okay,
and then I use a very particular mouth flash it's
like alcohol free and blah blah. I can't remember the
name right now, but I can send you a picture.
And I do not like coconut oil pulling. That does
(36:49):
not work for me.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
Okay, yeah, Because I was going to ask, because I
wrote that was in my notes, what is the fire
non negotiable oral care?
Speaker 2 (36:56):
Yeah, And everyone's like, well, have you thought about adding
oil pulling? And I'm like, yeah, it's the grossest thing
I ever tried to do. I'm not really.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
I couldn't do it. It made me like I felt
like I was gonna throw up.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
I was like, this isn't gonna the benefits of that.
There's no way the benefits outweigh how like horrible doing
it is. I would rather just go to the dentist
one or two more times a year for extra things.
Have to do this?
Speaker 1 (37:20):
Yeah, it's dorrial. And are you still friends with Petunia
and Augusta? Yeah, for sure, they're such good friends, I know,
really good friends.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
I'm so lucky. And you know, there are certain like aspects,
not aspects of their characters really, but maybe like stories
that I had experienced with other friends that I wove
into their stories in this book, because like you know,
I would have one conversation with one person that didn't
justify them being a whole character, but I wanted some
aspects of it. But I hope that you could tell,
(37:49):
like they're really three dimensional, real people who like really
mattered to you. Yeah, I'm so lucky. I have really
strong female friendships in New York and I'm not from here,
so like it took a lot to develop those. But
it's really, I realized, just so essential because you I mean,
(38:09):
you're from LA but like even so, I don't know
how close you live with your parents. It's just so
nice to like have your own community. Yeah, it's a
family you make.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
It's a family you choose. I mean, I love my family.
I live two minutes away from my parents actually, but
I have all my best friends from growing up. We
call each other the Lifers. There's seven of us, wow,
and we're super tight. And so to make a friend
as an adult has been like such a privilege, and
it's so rare because like you meet people and then
(38:43):
you're like, oh, I like them so much, and then
you're like, oh, wait, they're so weird or they do
something you know, or there's like something else here. Yeah,
there's just like something this at least, like I know,
we know are crazy. And so I've made some friends
as an adult, and like those friends are just as
important to me as my friends that I've been friends
with since I was, you know, seven years old and
I'm forty four.
Speaker 2 (39:02):
So, oh, you're so lucky. You must have a huge
group of friends.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
I'm so lucky. But also, like these friends that I've
made as an adult, one of them was just here.
She moved to DC. She actually also works in art,
and she just had her fortieth birthday and she came
out to LA and I threw a dinner for a
mister Chown. It was so fun and I was like,
I've only known you for eight years, and I feel
like I feel like you're like my sister. Like I
(39:29):
feel like I've known you my whole life. And I
think that meeting friends as an adult or at different
stages in your life is so important because I'm so
different than I was when I was seven and met
you know, my lifers.
Speaker 2 (39:40):
Yeah, it really allows you to evolve. Yeah, and helps
you to evolve, and like, I don't know, I'm sure
you have also really widened your circle with your nonprofit.
I feel like when you find your passion and like
the thing that makes you light up, you know, outside
of motherhood and stuff. Yeah, you can develop like a
(40:01):
whole new circle of people based on Like my great
love since I was a kid has been ballet. But I,
after realizing I wasn't going to be a professional dancer,
stepped away from it in any capacity until maybe like
the last ten years when I had a little more
money and could, like you know, donated for it. And
(40:24):
but it's brought so many Wait, by the way, as
your friend Brady.
Speaker 1 (40:30):
No, but Brady's best friend Emily.
Speaker 2 (40:32):
Okay, so funny because I was going to say I
think Brady just from forty, lives in DC and works
in art.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
So like Brady Brady's Brady's good friend in DC is
Emily Esher Amazing. Okay, yeah, and I like Brady Brady
and I met. Brady and I met when we were
both pregnant with our third in Palm Springs at a hotel.
We were seated next to each other and we were
both just like exasperated and we started talking. And then
my friend Emily moved to d C and became super
(40:57):
close with Brady.
Speaker 2 (40:58):
Small freaking world, I know, girl. Wow, Okay. I love
developing new friendships with people who like share my passion
because I can like fully nerd out and have you know,
now I have my like ballet board friends and stuff
like that, and I can like it's like people to
do this thing, this weird, niche thing that I love
(41:20):
so much with like go sit at the ballet and
like analyze every minute of it after and you know,
it's like I don't know, men finding someone they love
to talk sports with or something.
Speaker 1 (41:30):
Yeah, it's it's so important.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
Yeah, it's a real gift as a woman to find
that level of connection, and obviously was like a huge
part of my journey and really important, but it takes
a lot of work. You know, Like women have so
much on their plates because we're all so like culturally
trained to be incredible executive functioning multitaskers, and we take
on everything because it's just like easier than trying to
get your husband to do it. So we all have
(41:55):
so much going on. It's like, I think it's really
hard for a lot of women, especially if they don't
have the modeling of their mother being very social, it
can be really hard to like know how to develop
and keep up strong female relationships. Like my mom didn't
have a lot of friends growing up. She was kind
of you know, I don't my mom was I think
an anomaly in her community. Like she worked outside of
(42:17):
the home in the nineties in Indiana. When people read
the book, they'll know this, And she didn't have a
huge group of female friends. And I never like she
didn't model behavior for you know, she wasn't throwing dinners
at home, She wasn't having book club at home for
her girlfriends. She wasn't organizing dinners out for them. Like
I didn't really have modeling for how to develop really
(42:38):
close adult female friendships and kind of had to like
make it up on my own. But I determined soon
after moving to New York, like it was very important
for my happiness here because I was so deeply lonely
when I left my family and felt like ripped from
them by just going to college, which is you know,
totally normal, but like because I'm old, like I didn't
(43:01):
have like an iPhone, and I remember just being so
lonely and being like, all right, well, you're going to
have to make like real friends here if you expect
this to work out, because it's a cold, lonely place otherwise.
And it's just been like the most important thing to
me as to live in New York is to have
as many awesome girlfriends as possible. And people think New
Yorkers are mean and New York is a scary place.
(43:21):
It's the nicest women ever because it's easier plan totally,
there's so many opportunities to be social. It's not I
don't have to and everyone most people here are transplants,
so they're so excited to like also make friends. And
most people here work and are really committed to their work,
so you like need for networking purposes, even if it's
(43:43):
just that transactional. You actually like need lots of relationships
to get anything done. You know, That's what people say.
I've never lived there, you know, as an adult. But
that's like people, especially for dating. People I know who
moved to LA are like, oh my god, I know.
Speaker 1 (43:59):
I mean, I husband and I have been together now,
will be married sixteen years together for twenty. Like there
wasn't even like really a dating app except for like
Jay Date, I don't think. So it's like I can't
even imagine what that looks like now. And it's not
like you can just like go out and go to
a bar and like walk, you know, walk to get
a drink with a friend. It's just not like that.
Like my friends who live in Hancock Park, I live
on the West Side, Like I never see you know
(44:22):
what I mean. Like, it's just so different than living
in the city. You can just there's so many more
opportunities to be social.
Speaker 2 (44:30):
Do come to New York a lot?
Speaker 1 (44:32):
Yeah, I come to New York a lot. One of
our lifers moved there, so we all come visit her.
Speaker 2 (44:39):
Yeah, my god, yeah, to New York.
Speaker 1 (44:41):
She moved to New York. She met her husband, who's born
and raised in New York and he his whole family's there.
He lives there, he works there. They actually live in
the Hamptons now they go back and forth. But during
COVID they moved out there and it was like my
first time ever experiencing the Hamptons, which is like a
whole other thing, which I much prefer in the fall
rather than summer. My husband and I were like, what
(45:01):
is this place? And we never want to go back
in the summer. We like, couldn't.
Speaker 2 (45:05):
I'm very busy. Yeah, do you feel like Malibu gets
busy like that Malibou or Hampton's.
Speaker 1 (45:10):
Yeah, but it's like you're not sitting in a car
the whole time. You're not like there's not a bunch
of like finance bros. Like you know, it's just different.
It's just like more like a beachy thing than it is. Like, Yeah,
but I loved round Swamp Farm. I really loved it
and wanted to bring it to La.
Speaker 2 (45:26):
I don't like have a house in Anson's or anything,
so I've only been there a couple I've been there
like twice, Like I don't.
Speaker 1 (45:31):
Know, Yeah, it was really it was like an experience,
but you know, yeah, but I love the city. And
I love the city in the summer.
Speaker 2 (45:39):
Oh duh. Yeah, when you like don't have to wear
clothes and you could walk over there.
Speaker 1 (45:43):
You just like walk everywhere and then you shower, and
then you walk everywhere and then you shower. I love it.
Speaker 2 (45:48):
I timed this worth very well because I had her
in the middle. Well, I was meant to have her
in May, and I just got to like walk around
with her all summer and where you know, put her
little like lightweight lace cotton stuff on her and like
not worry about her being folds. And yeah, summer here
is very special and I love it even late in
the summer when it empties out. Get a reservation anywhere anywhere.
Speaker 1 (46:11):
I loved it. Yeah, yeah, we can visit a lot.
Do you know Sarah moon Bess at all?
Speaker 2 (46:16):
I do. Yeah, she's my.
Speaker 1 (46:17):
Brother's very best friend.
Speaker 2 (46:19):
Oh my god.
Speaker 1 (46:21):
Yeah, she's like my little sister.
Speaker 2 (46:23):
All right, Well, next time you're here, we'll have drincks.
Yeah we will.
Speaker 1 (46:27):
Thank you for doing this. I am such a fan,
like a crazy fan's yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:32):
You okay, Well I let you know when I come
to La too.
Speaker 1 (46:35):
Yeah for sure. Okay, show this guy the screen mask. Bye, Okay, Bye,
Thank you so much for listening to another episode of
What in the Winkler. These like share posts tell a friend,
we can't wait to see you back next week. Bye,
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.