December 4, 2024 • 44 mins
Have you ever dealt with a true narcissist?? Jana and Allan are getting all the facts on how to identify narcissistic traits from Dr. Jamie Zuckerman, who also clears up some of the myths around narcissism.
Allan admits he thinks he’s a narcissist, and Dr. Zuckerman tells him the honest truth.
Plus, Jana reveals everything about her top secret appearance on The Masked Singer!
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heart Radio Podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Okay, well it is official. I am the Royal Night.
What a fun experience. Had such a blast doing that show.
It was so incredibly hard for me not to respond
back to people, to you guys in my dms when
you would be like, I know it's you. It's a winker.
(00:28):
I know you're the Royal Night. So it was Yeah,
it was hard for me not to say, but it
was so sweet. I loved all y'all's dms. You guys
knew from the very beginning. I was telling Alan, I
was like, oh my gosh, babe, because I didn't think anyone.
At first, I was a little hesitant to do the
show because I'm like, they're going to be so disappointed
when they unmasked me, and they'll be like, who is that?
(00:51):
Like I don't feel like I'm like big enough to
be on the show or whatever, so they're going to
be like, wait, who. But the fact that it made
me feel so much better. Honestly, when I went to
like that day that the first episode aired, I went
to the masked singer like Facebook or not Facebook, the Instagram,
(01:11):
and people were like Jana Gramer Jana Grammer. I was like, ah, thanks, guys.
I was like, wow, well and I was like, okay,
like maybe you know, people do know who I am
or whatever. So that felt sweet. And then you know
how I'm always like, well I don't really have that
good of a voice or whatever.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
The fact that they were some of the guesses they
were like faith Hill. I was like, guys. I was like,
I'm so honored. This is this is the best feeling
in the world to I got like a because I'm
usually not confident when I sing, and that show gave
me a little bit of confidence.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Every time you come off, I thought you were.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
You were there supporting. It was so no one knew
obviously because you had to wear the gloves and we
couldn't tell anyone, but you were there supporting, and it
was it was so it was right before the wedding
when we got the text and I like screamed and
I'm like, oh my gosh, I just got offered to
be on the messinger and You're like, oh what.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
I didn't even know what it was.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
And then when I was showing you you're I was like,
look like, this person's dressed like a gumball and then
this person's like, and you were like, you want to do.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
This, yeah, but I don't think I've seen you as
excited as when you got that email through.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
I was so excited. It's a show that I've wanted
to do for a while, so I was just so
incredibly pumped. And then it worked it right before the wedding,
which was awesome that we were able to do it.
You know, we were able to We flew to Los
Angeles and we run it an Airbnb. We had a
(02:51):
little issue with the first Airbnb, it was a little
too loud, so then we went to the second airbb.
But it was so fun. I think the hardest part
about that show was that you can't repeat. You can't
repeat a song. So like that show has been on
for I don't even know how many years. I want
to say, like seven, maybe years, No, I don't know,
but however long it's been on, you cannot repeat any
(03:13):
song that's ever been done. So it's an entire list,
so everything I wanted, like I wanted to sing, you know,
songs that I was comfortable with or that I've known,
or that maybe that I've covered on stage. Oh my god,
twelve seasons yeah, so crazy. So just think of all
the songs that have already been done hit after hit
after hit. I mean just Ton and the three. The two,
(03:34):
the first two that I sang, I had never even
like heard of them.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
What were they? It was?
Speaker 2 (03:42):
The first one was the Lady Gaga one, which I love.
It's such a good song. I can't remember the name
of it now. And then when I look at You
with the Miley Cyras song, which, by the way, Matt
appreciation for Maley Ciris because I mean, I knew she
was a good singer, but she goes so high. We
had to lower that like two tones down because it
was so high.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
Costume was amazing.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
My costume was so fun. I cried when they said
I was going to be the night because I'm like,
my husband calls me his warrior and you know, so
that was really sweet. I did get claustrophobic and at
the first time trying it on though, because there's like
twelve people like sewing it on me, and I was like,
(04:24):
feel trapped. You could see, you can barely see, so
it's like if okay, So I want everyone at home
to take a coffee filter and then look through it
and see because that's literally what it is. You can
barely see, but it was it was the best experience.
I had so much fun. And I was saying, I
was doing some press this week about it, and I
(04:44):
feel like I'm always trying to, you know, do everything
for everyone else. And it's like, do you know, take
care of the kids, make sure the kids are happy,
make sure you're happy, make sure And it was like,
this was an opportunity for me to be a little
bit selfish and for me to go have fun. And
it was like it was the most on I ever
had on doing a show because everyone, like from the cast,
I didn't know the cast, but from like the crew
(05:06):
and like the for the ads, everyone just like helping.
Everyone was so nice. They were like they were asking
what we wanted for dinner all the time, Like they
were just so sweet.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
Maybe you might go back on it something, you know,
they I've got the voice of an angel.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
Would you have done? Would you do a show like that?
Speaker 3 (05:26):
Who's going to know me?
Speaker 2 (05:28):
I'm just saying, like, would you ever do a show
like that? Why? Come on, let's hear a little a
little singing voice. La la la la la.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
I've never even sang on a karaoke Ever, No, I
have a fear of exposing.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Myself because you're that good.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
Because I'm exposing all us to the child magnitude of
my voice. I think of ten cats fighting with each other.
But yeah, you were incredible and it was a good
experience like being being taken on nail with the masks
on and the hoodies on. And Troy experienced that, which
was a different frimend that he had experience where you
(06:09):
couldn't speak, and.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
I know I always wanted to see like what he
like because as you guys, don't have it over there
right in London, or do you have the show?
Speaker 3 (06:16):
I think there's a British one.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Oh there's a British one. Okay, thanks, Yeah, I know.
It was so fun to have everyone there and experience it,
and I got to FaceTime the kids. They were on beach.
They were on their beach trip with with with Mike.
So it just worked out just perfectly with the schedule
and but no, it was it was really nice to
have the experience together.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
A lot of pressure for you, which you handled as
you always do.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
It was so fun. I want to go back. I
miss it and I was so fine though, remember we were.
I was ready to go though, because I knew I
wasn't going to win. So I was like, all right,
I knew in my life, I think you're one on us. No,
I was like, I was like, babe, I know. I'm like,
I love your support, but I'm not going to win.
And it's okay, Like I'm so fine with it. I
know in my group had such a talented group. See that,
(07:03):
I was like, there's there's no way. I'm like, Strawberry
Shortcake blows me out of the water. She's so incredibly good.
The hound dog like he's got all everyone going like,
you know, woof, woof woof, like doing the whole like
wolfing thing. I was like, they're like they those two
got it in the bag. And so I was like,
they're they you know they're going to win. And honestly,
(07:25):
like the kids were just coming home from the beach
trip on the day that, you know, so I was like,
I really truly want to go home. I was like,
I want to get I said, I was like, I
want three episodes and then I want to be out.
And I wasn't just saying that because a lot of
times I say that because I want to protect me
losing or me not doing a good job. But it
was truly like I was so happy because I wanted
(07:45):
to get back because I mean, next week we were
leaving for the wedding, so I was like, I don't
want I was like, I'm so good. This is like
such a great experience. I had fun, and now I'm
ready to go home. And I think that it was
tough too, because the last performance, the Holiday song, I
was supposed to be singing Ariana Grande's Yes and but
I just couldn't get the lyrics for some reason. And
(08:06):
so remember like the night before the performance, the producer
texted me and they're like, hey, we're changing her song.
I was like, oh, they also knew it sucked because
I'm like, if production's changing my song the night of,
it was not good. So they changed my song last
minute to Holiday, which you know, it's totally fine, but
I also knew that was not a winning a winning song.
(08:27):
But it was so fun. I had a great time.
Everyone thought I was a gymnast though, so so we
don't know anybody in the cast. I didn't know who
Strawberry Shortcake was. I didn't know who the hound dog was,
and I'm always I can't ever sit still, so when
we're doing like camera or blocking, I'm just like stretching
and I'm doing the splits. And so my vocal coach,
(08:49):
who I just adore, she's amazing. She was like, everyone
thinks you're a gymnast. I was like, ah, because I
was constantly doing the splits. So I even have a picture.
Speaker 3 (08:58):
Like maybe constantly done because.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
I was stretching. I love to stretch. You knew I'm
always stretching.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
The speats in front of me.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
I just did it in the gym the other day.
I was like, hey, Bibe, look I can still take
the splits. Anyways, it was so fun. Thank you for
being so supportive, and thank you for everyone for again
sending me. It just warmed my heart. Every DM that
I got it was so much fun and so sweet.
And I'm sorry that I couldn't do a winkie face back.
I really wanted to.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
But do you think people got it from your voice
or your story or they combining both.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
I think I have a different sounding voice that I
think that's what they got it. But someone said I
knew from the first second you started singing because you're
your voice. But then I have mannerisms on stage where
I do like this squat thing. I don't know why
I do it, but I do. And so I think
some of my mannerisms also gave way. And then the story,
so the warrior hint gave it away. So there was
the warrior clue and then like my troubled past relationships
(09:58):
gave it away. But it was fun, so fun. Thank
you for all the love, thank you for watching, Thank
you for just making me feel so like, I don't know, loved,
so fun. All right, speaking of being loved and not
in the right way. Actually, we are having a narcissistic
abuse psychologist coming on the show. Her name is doctor
(10:20):
Jamie Zuckerman. She's got a podcast actually called the Narcissism
Podcast as well. So let's take a break and let's
get her on.
Speaker 4 (10:40):
Hi.
Speaker 3 (10:41):
Hi, Hi.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
So we were supposed to have you about a month ago,
and Alan made a really funny comment. This is my husband,
Alan our Shaw, so you know, he was like, oh,
I was really excited to talk to her, and I
was like, oh yeah, I'm like. I was like, you know,
she's like a narcissist, you know, special, And I was like,
and you were excited. He's like, yeah, He's like, sometimes
I think I'm a narcissist, and I was like, honey,
(11:05):
I was like, no, you're not. But then we kind
of started talking about it, and then I was like, well,
why did you think that? Like why'd you say that?
I think, thanks for the Well, got to go right
into it.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
I think sometimes and I've got it noted down here
where I think, if you're sometimes selfishness can be deemed
as narcissistic. And I walk with a lot of high
performance athletes. That's why the particularly strikers, who are the
ones in soccer professional that scored the goals. So these
(11:40):
guys have they're not narcissists, but they have narcissistic traits
and tendencies because there's so much pressure on them to
be the game winner, and so therefore they're really there's
high account accountability levels, so therefore they feel like they
need to look after themselves first, their own performance first,
or they can't win for the team. So I train
(12:01):
those guys. That's what I do for eleven and and
I think, okay, a lot of them will get narcissistic
traits and I'm the one that coaches them. But again,
it goes back to it, Okay, if you high perform,
and I think there has to be a certain of
selfishness and your decision and your approach to things. So
sometimes I think throughout the years have been called a
narcissist quite a lot.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
But here's the deal, though, I feel like everyone has
narcissistic That's I'm going to circle back to it. Like
when you said that, I'm like, well, I think everyone has.
Like when you look at the checklist, there's a checklist
of what like ten plus things. I'm like, everyone at
some point has had a narcissistic trait, you know. So
I'm like, I think we all can embody traits of it.
I don't think you're like, because I saw a thing
(12:45):
where there's what is the actual percentage of someone actually
being a true narcissist.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
So here's my take on that. So it's an extremely
low percentage. It's I think it's two percent or something
of the population. But the problem with that is is
that narcissis don't present for treatment, they don't think anything's wrong.
So that number is I have no doubt, you know,
very Let's say I'm just underestimated.
Speaker 4 (13:08):
We'll say I'm sure that.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
There are way more out there than we realize because
they don't present for treatment, so it's very hard to
get a number, and a lot of the times it's secondhand.
So it's my patients coming in and telling me these
symptoms and these descriptions of the relationship and me saying
that really meets criteria for somebody who has narcisistic personality disorder.
Speaker 4 (13:30):
But rarely do I get some in my office and
say this is what you have and let's work on
it. It just doesn't just doesn't show up like that.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Well, I think it's interesting because I do feel you know,
obviously we all have axes, and so you know, I've
had my ex call me a narcissist. He's had some
axes call him an narcissist, and so I remember going
to therapy and I'm like, am I one? Like I'm like,
I don't know, Like let's try and figure it out.
She's like you even asking if you're exactly exactly you're
not one, and I'm like, exactly, but it's true.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
I mean, I think to your point earlier, when you're
at an elite level for an athlete, you know, and
even if CEOs you look at anybody who's in this
high performance for their area, there's a certain type of person.
There's a certain type of person that you know can
play at that level, right, And so you have to
have that ability to self regulate, be very kind of
(14:25):
inside yourself, because so much of that high level sports
is mental, right, and so you have to be a
certain type of person. The difference is is that those
qualities may very well work for you, let's say in
the sport at the time during a match or you know,
but if you can switch that when you're with your
(14:45):
wife and when you're with your friends when you're not playing,
that's not narcissism, right, That's that's just as long as
you're able to switch it within different scenarios. That's just
you using your traits that are a benefit to you
at that time. It's when you're like that all the time,
regardless of this situation, it's pervasive across all areas of
(15:07):
your life.
Speaker 4 (15:07):
And then as far as exis.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
I mean, that's that's one of the reasons why I'm
so happy that people have me on to talk about this,
because so many people use that term they are narcissists
as a dumping route because you know they were they
were adults. If there's no other way to say it,
you know, and that's the only reason why.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Yeah, Well it's interesting because some of the things that
when you go on there, it's like, Okay, you know,
why did you go Is it the lack of empathy
at a time? But I'm like, you're but like you
work on empathy, you you know, there's you go to
therapy like and that's I think someone that, like she
was saying, that doesn't go into places and like we're
both trying to work on things that we know are
(15:43):
parts of ourselves that need a little growth in areas.
So I think someone that is a true narcissist, like
she said, like they don't come in for quote unquote
like treatment, you.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
Would have no concern about empathy. And and if if
you needed to have empathy in a particular situation, you'd
fake it cognitively, you'd be aware that you know, you're
supposed to feel empathy, but you don't, and there would
be you wouldn't have any motivation to do that unless
it benefited you. And that's definitely not going to be
continuously going to therapy and having conversations with your spouse
(16:15):
about it and doing the hard work.
Speaker 4 (16:17):
That's a narcissist won't do that.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
Yeah. I think it's also a well that in the
last few years gets banded around and generalized so much.
It really does. I mean, as soon as someone hears
something that they don't want to hear a couple of times,
then you've banded a narcissist.
Speaker 4 (16:36):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
You do things that you need to do because like
so you said to me this morning, Well, if you
need to go for a run, you go for a wheer,
you need to go to the gym, you go to
the gym. That's just me taking care of myself because
I know what I'm like mentally if I don't do
those things. Yeah, right, Whereas I think, yeah, I think
it's just you just hear it so often. Now, Like
(17:01):
who was it we had on a few weeks ago
and it was about and I said, it was also
really generalized. It was a condition.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Oh, I have no idea, I can't remember.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
But again it was like another buzzword that people want
to use when they're really uneducated about what. So that's
why it's always best to speak to people like yourself
who are experts in that field. They know exactly what
it takes in the situation to present themselves to be
a narcissist, because people just jump on these words and
(17:32):
and call people narcissists, and it's it's pretty damaged when
they're not narcissistic people.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
It is because what you know, when when you do
have that personality disorder, you know, people will say to
me sometimes, you know, you're a psychologist, and you know,
how could you talk so badly about you know, and
it's it's it's not that it's just the behaviors and
the manifestation.
Speaker 4 (17:53):
Of narcissis personal disorder.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
Is it is that bad, And so when you report
the symptoms, it ends up being the really horrific thing
that it sounds like. And so people just throw their
exes into that because it kind of removes accountability and
it makes it easier for them to push them away
or to you know, just talk badly about them or if.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
They won't saying that person's a narcissists, actually the narcissists.
Speaker 4 (18:17):
Say correct, and you'll see that someone that's a narcissist.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
If you listen to how they talk about their exes,
they're always the victim, always their exes are always crazy,
they have narcissistic personality disorder. They stalk them, they you know,
all of the they won't stop contacting them. And so
if you hear that as a pattern of somebody's exes,
it's not that that's the only red flag, but if
you hear that, it's something to just kind of, you know,
(18:41):
be mindful.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
Of, right, No, for sure, what do you say to
someone that is in a relationship with a true narcissist?
What is your biggest tip for them to to, you know,
get help, because obviously I don't. Have you ever seen
someone willing to actually do the work that is a
narciss No, yeah, there's no. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
Now, I mean to be fair, I have seen people
and then they bring their significant other in and what
really ends up happening is the significant other on the surface,
and this is where I think people get confused. On
the surface, they could have grown up in an environment
with a narcissist, let's say, and so they develop these
patterns of behavior that on the surface look exactly the
(19:24):
same as a narcissist, but they're not. They just look
the same. And so when they hear listen, your behaviors
are hurting me. They don't want that, they don't want
to hurt somebody that they love, and so they're willing
to change those patterns. Whereas a narcissist, if they come
ince my office with their significant other, it's either going
to be they're going to walk out mid session, they're
(19:44):
going to absolutely hate me, and they're going to say
the worst therapist in the world.
Speaker 4 (19:48):
She doesn't know what she's talking about.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
We're never going back to her again, or they'll try
to charm me, which won't work and they'll leave. So
there's that distinction that I like to make that sometimes
people on the surface that behaviors can look similar, but
I always say the function of them or the reason
behind why they're doing is very different.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
What do you think the most damaging abuse from a
narcissist is? Like? Which trait?
Speaker 1 (20:12):
Oh God, I mean, it's all You can't really tease
it apart because it's all it's financial, emotional, sexual, physical, psychological.
It doesn't you can't really tease that apart. You know,
some are more than others. Let's say, you know, maybe
there's more emotional abuse than physical abuse. But I would
have to say I think the psychological emotional long term abuse.
(20:37):
It really just strips people of their sense of self
and it is so unbelievably damaging.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
Of course, is that effectual mind and not you're body.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
In that, Yeah, it's that coercive control. It's it's the
kind of it's the kind of abuse that you know. Outwardly,
they're lovely, right, they're they're philanthropic, even they're they're happy,
they're the life of the party. But then behind closed doors,
they're just monsters and they're very abusive.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
What do you think the biggest red flag is to
look out for in a relationship or a partnership in
for narcissistic abuse.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
Yeah, so in the beginning, and this is again where
it's really tricky. In the beginning, it looks really good
right in the beginning, there's all the love bombing. So
it's this it's not just that you connect with somebody.
It's like a whirlwind romance. It's like a tidal wave.
You're calling each other's soulmates. Immediately, you're talking about moving in,
you're talking about getting married, you're talking about having kids,
(21:31):
and it's kind of like you don't even know their
middle name yet, right, Like you don't even know what
foods they're allergic to. I'm sure they could be wonderful,
but soulmates, you know, maybe, but highly doubtful.
Speaker 4 (21:44):
And it's not an organic process.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
And I'm not even talking about people that just connect
right away and they really fall for each other and
they know that it feels right.
Speaker 4 (21:51):
This is different.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
This is you know, constant calling to you know, constant texting,
speaking for hours through the night when you just met,
and seeing each other and then going on dates every
night after that and planning vacations after date number two.
They start to pull those vulnerabilities out of you, and
even though it may feel good and you can trust them,
(22:12):
it really is a dangerous thing to do because what
they're really doing is they're storing these for later use
down the road when they start the manipulation, when they
start to really kind of strip you of your sense
of self, they use those vulnerabilities to really get it
your your you know, those those deep wounds.
Speaker 3 (22:30):
So they constantly go into race relationships with agendas yes,
and strategies.
Speaker 4 (22:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Yeah, I'm just almost like why though, like why and
how like how does that because that just sounds exhausting,
Like I.
Speaker 1 (22:45):
Don't know, so if you think of it as you know,
you feel like you exist separate from other people, right,
And so with a narcissist, they don't feel that they
almost exist unless they're getting this constant source of we
call it supply, right, or fuel from other people, whether
that's pissing you off and making you angry on your
(23:07):
birthday and so you're, you know, really upset, and they
know they cause that because they had access to your
emotions or.
Speaker 4 (23:13):
You know, they just need that access to people.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
Whether they're getting something good back or negative back, it
doesn't matter. It's just what they take to fill themselves up.
So if you think of everybody as like a gas pump, right,
they just go up and just keep filling, and when
you're depleted, then you serve no purpose for them, which
is why a lot of times they have a lot
of these relationships and there's a lot of infidelity because
they always have kind of people waiting in the wings,
(23:38):
so that when they get bored or they're not getting
there that supplimate, they have other people they they can
go to, same with their friends and coworkers.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
Can people go through phases of the life based on
trauma are based on something that's happened, and they go
through phases of narcissism i e. Three, four or five
years or is it just you're a narcissist and that's
you for your whole life.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
So yeah, so a personality disorder is pervasive. They rarely
like to diagnose it before the age of eighteen because
kids they're still their.
Speaker 4 (24:26):
Frontal lobes are still developing. But really they don't diagnose that.
So let's say eighteen.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
So personality disorder, true personality sutter is life long. It's
a pervasive way of interacting with the world. It's a
way you see the world, the way that you interact
with the world. So it's not something that changes. Now
something like borderline personality disorder. There's treatment for that, so
you can have people that heal from that, but it's
always something they're going to need to deal with in
(24:52):
terms of their inner personal relationships. So you think what
you're talking about is that when people have a trauma,
oftentimes trauma responses can look like narcissistic behaviors because your
body is in this fight or flight mode, You're nervous
systems disregulated. You may be extremely agitated and freak out
on people without you know doing, but you're not doing
(25:13):
it with the intention of control. That's the thing narcissists
when they do these actions, the goal is to gain
power and control. I think what you're talking about is
more of a trauma response. The goal isn't to get
power and control. The goal is just trying to keep
yourself safe. And I think that's why you see that
fluctuation as they start to heal, you may not see
that if it's going through a tough time, like an anniversary,
you have a traumatic event, you may see those symptoms
(25:34):
increase during that time.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
Yeah, I know that makes sense, and I think that's
probably why some people misdiagnose themselves too, because you know,
even just I know which time period you're talking about.
I know a time period in my life too where
I'm like, well, I was storing people and I was
you know, but it was all a protection, yeah, and
my own trauma from the abuse that I had in
my past.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
So yeah, you know, yeah, I think it just goes
back to, Okay, those behaviors were not my normal behavior
in that in that time period. So I'm I'm a
tunnel a narcissist or of my Because you just questioned
your behaviors. And I'm referring to a period of three
or four years in my life where I questioned a
(26:13):
lot that I lost who I was essentially in some
of my traits were bodyline narcissistic, but I knew I
wasn't a narcissist. Another an ever strategized or have agendas
over people or try to control never ever. I think
it was probably more the okay, feel feel that you
(26:34):
wanted have people there that you know will be for you,
kind of have that safety blanket. Yeah, that's what I
was more referring.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
You heard a lot of girls in that process. But
you know what, we all hurt people hurt people, you know, so.
Speaker 4 (26:50):
We've all listened. I always say this life is that
life is hard, is hard, you know.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
So I think the fact that you're just acknowledging it
that it was just when you can say that it's
a distinct period of time that's different from who you are.
You know, that's more of a kind of a response
to you know, either a depression or anxiety or trauma,
response to something that alters where you're at at that
time period, and then you kind of go back to
your baseline or you go back to a healthier state,
(27:19):
whereas with narcissism, it's just it is.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
It just is.
Speaker 4 (27:23):
You may look different in different situations, but that's on purpose.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
Yeah, okay, we're not.
Speaker 3 (27:33):
We were.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
I think it's like all of it was like trauma
based for both of us.
Speaker 3 (27:37):
But I think if you're stripping it, like throw a
lessoners and like men or women, if you strip, if
you really strip it back, how do you how do
you like five things or six things where people can
almost recognize a narcissist as the partner or the father
or the mother or the brother. What would you say
(27:58):
those five?
Speaker 4 (27:59):
So they probably won't realize it at first.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
Again, which is why I'm glad people do you know,
talk about it because it's such a slow and citious.
It's like a leaky faucet, right, So it's just this
slow drip and then all of a sudden one day
you realize that you're standing in your kitchen and your
knee deep in water.
Speaker 4 (28:16):
So things like.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
If you notice that they are really agitated and get
really angry to any type of perceived criticism, right, if
you're like, oh I think I like the white shirt
on you better, they go into attack mode, right, or
they start to get really controlling things like you're going
out with your friends for dinner and they now all
(28:41):
of a sudden are sick and they need you to
take care of them and stay at home, and if
you go, they call you, you know, start calling you
all the time, and I can't believe you leave me home.
You can see your friends anytime. So you'll notice that
they do certain things during important thing the things I
should say, but but things that mean stuff to you. Right,
you have, you know, a work event, or you get
(29:02):
a promotion at work and instead of congratulating you, they
start a fight with you because you forgot to fill
the car up with gas.
Speaker 4 (29:10):
Right.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
If you feel that you have to always walk on eggshells,
that you never know what you're going to get from them,
and that's done on purpose, right, to keep you kind
of under their control. But if there's no rhyme or
reason to why they're flying off the handle, and you
feel that you need to watch what you say, watch
what you do, you find yourself starting to kind of
lie by omission or tell these little white lies, not
(29:34):
because there's anything wrong with it, but because you're nervous
that they'll get mad something is ridiculous, as you bought lipstick,
you don't say anything because if you do, they're going
to say, well, why are you buying lipstick? Who are
you trying to look good for? So you just don't
tell them things. And then what happens is, oh, now
they find the lipstick, and now you're a liar. Right,
So a lot of this kind of gas lighting switching
(29:57):
things around, but you lose yourself than that, so it's
hard to kind of realize what's happening. The other thing
is if you find yourself starting to become isolated from
families and from family and friends, because that's something else
that they really try to do. So if you find
that you're really kind of detached from people, that's also
(30:17):
kind of an indication. The other thing too, I would
say for finances, this is a big thing. I don't
think people talk about enough. If, for example, they say, oh,
you know what, I don't want you to work, you relax,
I'm going to take care of you like I make
more money anyway. So just just stay home right like this,
You do what you need to do, you take care
of the house like it'll be fine. But now you
(30:40):
have to ask permission for even the smallest thing to buy,
you know, food at the grocery store or something. And
then it turns into you don't have your logins for
your bank account, you have no idea what assets you have,
you have no idea what investments you have. You don't
know what credit cards are out in your name. And
this is where a lot of times people will realize
after the relationships there's three four hundred thousand dollars in
(31:02):
debt in their name they knew nothing about. So there's
that financial control as well. So even though it may
seem like a relief that you don't have to worry
about your finances, if they really push for that, that's
a red.
Speaker 4 (31:13):
Flag too well.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
And that's when a lot of women are adventure hopped
too because they that's right, Yeah, they stay because they're
financially they're like they don't even know or anything. What
do you think are the biggest myths about narcissistic abuse?
Speaker 4 (31:30):
The biggest myths.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
That narcissists go for week weak people with low self esteem.
They actually don't. They go for very you know, strong, opinionated, successful, smart, confident,
you know, just people that are really are able to
carry themselves. Well, one because it looks good for them,
(31:54):
makes them feel good, but also it's it's a further
way for their you know, further way down to knock
them down. So if they start dating somebody that has
very low self esteem, they're not going to get as
much supply from that because they're already low, so it's further.
Speaker 4 (32:10):
Knock them down.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
So they usually go for people where they have more
access to to watch them fall essentially, So there's that myth.
Speaker 4 (32:19):
I think people assume that they go for people who
are weak. That's not true. That's who they end up
after the abuse. When they get out of the relationship,
then they're a shell of who they used to be.
Then that that is true.
Speaker 1 (32:30):
I think the other thing is that, you know, when
people say, well, why don't they just leave, I don't
think people understand that it's not a normal type of breakup.
It's not even just your standard runn of them all
toxic breakup. It's you know, there's a high risk for
violence when women leave, so that's a big reason why
they don't leave. The family court system is a nightmare,
(32:53):
and they're petrified that their ex is going to say
that they're crazy and take their kids from them, and
I see it happen so many times. It's it's gut
wrenching to watch, and they're very scared about that because
the narcisst will use the children as a pawn and.
Speaker 4 (33:07):
Threaten, you know, threaten based on the kids. I'll take
the kids from you.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
You'll never see them again. And then, as you said, finances,
they they feel trapped. So it's it's a myth that
you know, it's it's why don't they just leave it?
Speaker 4 (33:19):
You can?
Speaker 1 (33:22):
And then I think the other myth is that couples
therapy works does not. It does not work with a narcissist.
So if you feel that you are with a narciss
if this is making sense to you, get your own therapy.
Therapy with a narcissist does not work, and I never
recommend it. M oh And the other last myth I'll
say is that they don't know what they're doing. They
(33:43):
absolutely know what they're doing. Some of their behaviors may
be out of habit because they're used to doing it,
but when brought to their attention, it doesn't stop them.
Speaker 4 (33:51):
So they're very aware of what they're doing.
Speaker 3 (33:55):
How many how many people narcissists percentage a physically abusive.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
You know, I'm going to say like seventy five. I mean,
I don't know many patients that I've had where that's
not the case.
Speaker 4 (34:10):
It's pretty high. I mean, it's always the.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
Coercive control, the emotional, the psychological abuse. The problem is
that it depending on how long the relationship goes for
the abuse gets worse. So if it wasn't physical for
like the first six years, seven years, it very well
still could become physical and.
Speaker 4 (34:28):
Sexual as well. So it's hard to answer that, but
a lot, a lot.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
You have two workbooks out Find Your Calm, so a
workbook to manage anxiety, and then a second one, Find
Good Habits for a workbook for daily growth. What is
your if to summarize kind of both of those your
best tips for managing like your number one tip for
managing anxiety and then also for just daily growth that
(34:56):
we can do into practice.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
Yeah, So for anxiety or any discomfort, you have to
sit with it. You have to sit with it and
feel it. You can't just talk about it. You can't
just try to change your thinking. You actually have to
sit with the discomfort. And their strategies obviously you can
use to not you know, so it's not torturous for you,
but mindfulness skills and things like that. And as far
(35:22):
as growth, I'm a big fan of behavioral approaches. I
think it's important to change your behavior first and then
you get a new experience and then as a result,
it becomes less and less scary or less and less
anxiety provoking.
Speaker 4 (35:37):
The key is starting really small.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
So if your goal is to clean your house, I
want you to pick one room, and then I want
you to break the room in half.
Speaker 4 (35:43):
And then I want you to pick one section and
that's what you do.
Speaker 1 (35:47):
And I think that's really helpful because then you gain
a sense of mastery and it kind of gives you
that motivation to keep going.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
What is the one thing you know when you when
you talk to your your patients that come in, what
do you see the most that people in this day
and age are are needing the most of? Like what
are what are they lacking the most that you want
to give them?
Speaker 1 (36:07):
I think the biggest just validation that they're not that
they're not alone, that they're they're they're far from alone,
that there is light at the end of the tunnel,
that it's not all doom and gloom. That the fact
that they're here is a huge step. And it may
it may be a process, but you're here and you
can do this. I think that's the biggest thing, because
I think on social media we're so focused, you know,
(36:29):
myself included on these are the symptoms of this, this
is what this looks like, but there's not as much
kind of I don't know, validation, I guess in a sense.
Speaker 4 (36:37):
So I think that that's really important.
Speaker 1 (36:39):
So that's really the first thing that I that I
go to is just letting them know that this is okay,
and this is normal and nothing's wrong with you.
Speaker 4 (36:45):
None of this is your fault.
Speaker 2 (36:48):
Yeah, Or that they deserve it too, right, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (36:51):
No, that they there's nothing in the world that they
did to even remotely deserve this. Nothing.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
Sure, You've got a podcast called Nexte Narcissism Podcast. What
can listeners expect on on that?
Speaker 1 (37:05):
Yeah, so we I have a bunch of guests on
who are very much involved in the field in terms
of narcissistic abuse, course of control, family court, divorce, co parenting,
and then you know, we do episodes just on anxiety
and how to manage that.
Speaker 4 (37:20):
And how to manage.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
Trauma, how to kind of heal yourself after narcissistic abuse
and what that looks like.
Speaker 3 (37:28):
Have you ever had Have you ever had a narcissist
on that you can delve into the mind and they
can tell you what they would do in certain situations
and how they operate. You've never had the one that's transpolent?
Speaker 4 (37:39):
Is that no, because they won't they won't think anything wrong.
Speaker 3 (37:42):
But I have.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
I have been on a podcast where the very clearly
realized that the person was a narcissist, and it was
really difficult. So it's you get that that clinical kind
of feeling your stomach. And so I haven't I personally
haven't had anyone on or interviewed anyone, but I've definitely
been on.
Speaker 4 (38:03):
Yeah, it's definitely an odd conversation to have.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
What's the percentage between women and men narcissists?
Speaker 1 (38:10):
So technically more men than women, but I think it's
also a lot of women are misdiagnosed as having anxiety
and depression because narcissistic personality or looks a little bit
different in women. They use a lot more emotional manipulation, guilt, shame,
things like that. They look at even their kids. A
(38:33):
momth as like an extension of themselves that there's no
any time you try to kind of move towards autonomy,
you're considered this horrible child.
Speaker 4 (38:43):
So it's more a lot of.
Speaker 1 (38:46):
Emotional manipulation and just a ton of guilt. And you know,
for in marriage is kind of really taking financial abuse
to the next level, just spending no concern for you know,
any death that you're in no remorse. So if it
looks different, but there it's I would say men are
a little higher.
Speaker 4 (39:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
Interesting, Okay, well, where can our listeners find you? And
thank you so much for coming on too.
Speaker 4 (39:14):
Yeah, this was great. This is great.
Speaker 1 (39:17):
Yeah, my Instagram's doctors the psychologist and my website doctor
Jabisuckerman dot com.
Speaker 2 (39:23):
Amazing. Thank you for coming on. We appreciate you. I'm
glad this is great.
Speaker 4 (39:27):
Thank you so much. Guys.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
Thanks Jamie, you too.
Speaker 3 (39:31):
Hi, It's really good to speak to people like that. Yeah,
I didn't know the nuts and bolts of what they're
dealing with, which is so important because we live in
a society in the world where people google things and
try and self diagnose, or people google things and try
and diagnose others. And abuse others or shame others and
(39:53):
to being something that they're not.
Speaker 2 (39:55):
Yeah, it is.
Speaker 3 (39:56):
She's shedding the light on real nacessary people don't even know.
I will deny that the narcissists. Where does you? And
I don't you worrying about me?
Speaker 2 (40:08):
I'm always like, let's talk it out.
Speaker 3 (40:10):
Let's like like the paruss try also, but also the
fact that people should be really careful label and labeling
other people narcissistic.
Speaker 2 (40:19):
The one I know why I've I've had a couple.
I feel like I feel like I've had a couple.
I know one was like to a t the others.
You know, I think we're but I don't. It's not
that I would say it, but I don't feel like
there's no any point of being like, you're you're such
a narcissist because they don't already don't believe any of
(40:41):
the things that they've done in our relationship, So why
would I even waste my breath to say that there
are a certain situation or is a certain person or
this and the other. Because I'm like, That's why I'm
always saying with like co Parrington too, I'm like, you
think you're your ex is going to listen to you
now when they when you guys were at odds when
you were married and they didn't And you know, so
I'm like, what is what is the even the point
(41:02):
of having a discussion like why don't you understand me? Well,
you didn't understand me or listen to me or have
empathy or care about those things when we are married,
So what like why even get into the argument post divorce?
You know, it's like and then so, and there's no
point of saying like you're a narcissist or you're a
you're a badness or that, because it's like, okay, like there,
they don't care. They don't care what you think or
(41:22):
or who they are because they're they're just who they are.
And and a lot of times, like you said, like
she was saying too, they can divorce to people you know,
they have their their mind's made up of who that
person is because of the situation that happened in a marriage.
Speaker 3 (41:36):
Yeah, also can like if you're if you're worn down
by something, you're in a relationship where you're worn down,
or you're in a situation where it could even be
a boss that's that's worn an employee then, and your
behaviors are the subject of you being worn down. That
can be perceived the some people's because your behaviors change
the world, that they're a narcissist. Yeah not, They'll just
(42:00):
them they're just a person that's worn down and doesn't
know how to doesn't know how to care anymore. So
we'll say what they want about regard the care for
the consequences because they're worn down and basically don't get
they'll beyond caring.
Speaker 2 (42:14):
Yeah. Well, I mean, even like you know, people that
have you know, would reach out and like, oh, they're
just be careful with this person because they were X,
Y and Z, and it's like, well, you guys also
might have just not worked well together too.
Speaker 3 (42:26):
I don't think so. I think that's more of a
what's that Facebook page called where people were? People go
on and.
Speaker 2 (42:33):
Oh the are we dating the same person? Yea?
Speaker 3 (42:38):
So those I think those people that go on there
take take the safety issue aside. Okay, if people are
warning something there like maybe this person isn't safe for
some sort of reason, okay, But I think the people
that go on there and try and ruin relationships for
others before it's even had a chance to flourish or
(42:58):
nutia are more narcissistic than the people that are actually
on there talking about because those people of the strategy
for trying to ruin a relationship or ruin someone's reputation
just because they had a bad experience.
Speaker 2 (43:13):
Or that the person didn't like them back or something.
Speaker 3 (43:15):
Yeah, they feel okay, I feel rejecting. I'm I'm going
to go on this Facebook page and and talk about
someone that I didn't I didn't have a good experience
with just because they rejected me.
Speaker 2 (43:25):
So I feel like they've had a lot of cheats
on there though some people that have you know, we're
dating the same dude at the same time.
Speaker 3 (43:34):
Some only no was on the modern around, this modern
world of social media and dating, and the lines are
blood now compared to what it used to be. Anyway,
back to back to NASAs, I thought she was great
on giving real clarity on yeah, on what people need
to look out for, a great red flagwise, but also
(43:57):
I think that's finally there's evens, there's evens fine lines
between like people just having a bad day and acting
like I guarantee you everyone that's listened to this will think, Okay,
one of those narcissistic traits. I've done that at one time,
but I behave like that. We all have.
Speaker 2 (44:17):
But if you want more information, listen to her podcast.
Next up, Narcissism Podcast it Is with Jamie Zuckerman. Check
her out, see you next week
Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heart Radio Podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Okay, well it is official. I am the Royal Night.
What a fun experience. Had such a blast doing that show.
It was so incredibly hard for me not to respond
back to people, to you guys in my dms when
you would be like, I know it's you. It's a winker.
(00:28):
I know you're the Royal Night. So it was Yeah,
it was hard for me not to say, but it
was so sweet. I loved all y'all's dms. You guys
knew from the very beginning. I was telling Alan, I
was like, oh my gosh, babe, because I didn't think anyone.
At first, I was a little hesitant to do the
show because I'm like, they're going to be so disappointed
when they unmasked me, and they'll be like, who is that?
(00:51):
Like I don't feel like I'm like big enough to
be on the show or whatever, so they're going to
be like, wait, who. But the fact that it made
me feel so much better. Honestly, when I went to
like that day that the first episode aired, I went
to the masked singer like Facebook or not Facebook, the Instagram,
(01:11):
and people were like Jana Gramer Jana Grammer. I was like, ah, thanks, guys.
I was like, wow, well and I was like, okay,
like maybe you know, people do know who I am
or whatever. So that felt sweet. And then you know
how I'm always like, well I don't really have that
good of a voice or whatever.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
The fact that they were some of the guesses they
were like faith Hill. I was like, guys. I was like,
I'm so honored. This is this is the best feeling
in the world to I got like a because I'm
usually not confident when I sing, and that show gave
me a little bit of confidence.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Every time you come off, I thought you were.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
You were there supporting. It was so no one knew
obviously because you had to wear the gloves and we
couldn't tell anyone, but you were there supporting, and it
was it was so it was right before the wedding
when we got the text and I like screamed and
I'm like, oh my gosh, I just got offered to
be on the messinger and You're like, oh what.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
I didn't even know what it was.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
And then when I was showing you you're I was like,
look like, this person's dressed like a gumball and then
this person's like, and you were like, you want to do.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
This, yeah, but I don't think I've seen you as
excited as when you got that email through.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
I was so excited. It's a show that I've wanted
to do for a while, so I was just so
incredibly pumped. And then it worked it right before the wedding,
which was awesome that we were able to do it.
You know, we were able to We flew to Los
Angeles and we run it an Airbnb. We had a
(02:51):
little issue with the first Airbnb, it was a little
too loud, so then we went to the second airbb.
But it was so fun. I think the hardest part
about that show was that you can't repeat. You can't
repeat a song. So like that show has been on
for I don't even know how many years. I want
to say, like seven, maybe years, No, I don't know,
but however long it's been on, you cannot repeat any
(03:13):
song that's ever been done. So it's an entire list,
so everything I wanted, like I wanted to sing, you know,
songs that I was comfortable with or that I've known,
or that maybe that I've covered on stage. Oh my god,
twelve seasons yeah, so crazy. So just think of all
the songs that have already been done hit after hit
after hit. I mean just Ton and the three. The two,
(03:34):
the first two that I sang, I had never even
like heard of them.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
What were they? It was?
Speaker 2 (03:42):
The first one was the Lady Gaga one, which I love.
It's such a good song. I can't remember the name
of it now. And then when I look at You
with the Miley Cyras song, which, by the way, Matt
appreciation for Maley Ciris because I mean, I knew she
was a good singer, but she goes so high. We
had to lower that like two tones down because it
was so high.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
Costume was amazing.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
My costume was so fun. I cried when they said
I was going to be the night because I'm like,
my husband calls me his warrior and you know, so
that was really sweet. I did get claustrophobic and at
the first time trying it on though, because there's like
twelve people like sewing it on me, and I was like,
(04:24):
feel trapped. You could see, you can barely see, so
it's like if okay, So I want everyone at home
to take a coffee filter and then look through it
and see because that's literally what it is. You can
barely see, but it was it was the best experience.
I had so much fun. And I was saying, I
was doing some press this week about it, and I
(04:44):
feel like I'm always trying to, you know, do everything
for everyone else. And it's like, do you know, take
care of the kids, make sure the kids are happy,
make sure you're happy, make sure And it was like,
this was an opportunity for me to be a little
bit selfish and for me to go have fun. And
it was like it was the most on I ever
had on doing a show because everyone, like from the cast,
I didn't know the cast, but from like the crew
(05:06):
and like the for the ads, everyone just like helping.
Everyone was so nice. They were like they were asking
what we wanted for dinner all the time, Like they
were just so sweet.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
Maybe you might go back on it something, you know,
they I've got the voice of an angel.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
Would you have done? Would you do a show like that?
Speaker 3 (05:26):
Who's going to know me?
Speaker 2 (05:28):
I'm just saying, like, would you ever do a show
like that? Why? Come on, let's hear a little a
little singing voice. La la la la la.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
I've never even sang on a karaoke Ever, No, I
have a fear of exposing.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Myself because you're that good.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
Because I'm exposing all us to the child magnitude of
my voice. I think of ten cats fighting with each other.
But yeah, you were incredible and it was a good
experience like being being taken on nail with the masks
on and the hoodies on. And Troy experienced that, which
was a different frimend that he had experience where you
(06:09):
couldn't speak, and.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
I know I always wanted to see like what he
like because as you guys, don't have it over there
right in London, or do you have the show?
Speaker 3 (06:16):
I think there's a British one.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Oh there's a British one. Okay, thanks, Yeah, I know.
It was so fun to have everyone there and experience it,
and I got to FaceTime the kids. They were on beach.
They were on their beach trip with with with Mike.
So it just worked out just perfectly with the schedule
and but no, it was it was really nice to
have the experience together.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
A lot of pressure for you, which you handled as
you always do.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
It was so fun. I want to go back. I
miss it and I was so fine though, remember we were.
I was ready to go though, because I knew I
wasn't going to win. So I was like, all right,
I knew in my life, I think you're one on us. No,
I was like, I was like, babe, I know. I'm like,
I love your support, but I'm not going to win.
And it's okay, Like I'm so fine with it. I
know in my group had such a talented group. See that,
(07:03):
I was like, there's there's no way. I'm like, Strawberry
Shortcake blows me out of the water. She's so incredibly good.
The hound dog like he's got all everyone going like,
you know, woof, woof woof, like doing the whole like
wolfing thing. I was like, they're like they those two
got it in the bag. And so I was like,
they're they you know they're going to win. And honestly,
(07:25):
like the kids were just coming home from the beach
trip on the day that, you know, so I was like,
I really truly want to go home. I was like,
I want to get I said, I was like, I
want three episodes and then I want to be out.
And I wasn't just saying that because a lot of
times I say that because I want to protect me
losing or me not doing a good job. But it
was truly like I was so happy because I wanted
(07:45):
to get back because I mean, next week we were
leaving for the wedding, so I was like, I don't
want I was like, I'm so good. This is like
such a great experience. I had fun, and now I'm
ready to go home. And I think that it was
tough too, because the last performance, the Holiday song, I
was supposed to be singing Ariana Grande's Yes and but
I just couldn't get the lyrics for some reason. And
(08:06):
so remember like the night before the performance, the producer
texted me and they're like, hey, we're changing her song.
I was like, oh, they also knew it sucked because
I'm like, if production's changing my song the night of,
it was not good. So they changed my song last
minute to Holiday, which you know, it's totally fine, but
I also knew that was not a winning a winning song.
(08:27):
But it was so fun. I had a great time.
Everyone thought I was a gymnast though, so so we
don't know anybody in the cast. I didn't know who
Strawberry Shortcake was. I didn't know who the hound dog was,
and I'm always I can't ever sit still, so when
we're doing like camera or blocking, I'm just like stretching
and I'm doing the splits. And so my vocal coach,
(08:49):
who I just adore, she's amazing. She was like, everyone
thinks you're a gymnast. I was like, ah, because I
was constantly doing the splits. So I even have a picture.
Speaker 3 (08:58):
Like maybe constantly done because.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
I was stretching. I love to stretch. You knew I'm
always stretching.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
The speats in front of me.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
I just did it in the gym the other day.
I was like, hey, Bibe, look I can still take
the splits. Anyways, it was so fun. Thank you for
being so supportive, and thank you for everyone for again
sending me. It just warmed my heart. Every DM that
I got it was so much fun and so sweet.
And I'm sorry that I couldn't do a winkie face back.
I really wanted to.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
But do you think people got it from your voice
or your story or they combining both.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
I think I have a different sounding voice that I
think that's what they got it. But someone said I
knew from the first second you started singing because you're
your voice. But then I have mannerisms on stage where
I do like this squat thing. I don't know why
I do it, but I do. And so I think
some of my mannerisms also gave way. And then the story,
so the warrior hint gave it away. So there was
the warrior clue and then like my troubled past relationships
(09:58):
gave it away. But it was fun, so fun. Thank
you for all the love, thank you for watching, Thank
you for just making me feel so like, I don't know, loved,
so fun. All right, speaking of being loved and not
in the right way. Actually, we are having a narcissistic
abuse psychologist coming on the show. Her name is doctor
(10:20):
Jamie Zuckerman. She's got a podcast actually called the Narcissism
Podcast as well. So let's take a break and let's
get her on.
Speaker 4 (10:40):
Hi.
Speaker 3 (10:41):
Hi, Hi.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
So we were supposed to have you about a month ago,
and Alan made a really funny comment. This is my husband,
Alan our Shaw, so you know, he was like, oh,
I was really excited to talk to her, and I
was like, oh yeah, I'm like. I was like, you know,
she's like a narcissist, you know, special, And I was like,
and you were excited. He's like, yeah, He's like, sometimes
I think I'm a narcissist, and I was like, honey,
(11:05):
I was like, no, you're not. But then we kind
of started talking about it, and then I was like, well,
why did you think that? Like why'd you say that?
I think, thanks for the Well, got to go right
into it.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
I think sometimes and I've got it noted down here
where I think, if you're sometimes selfishness can be deemed
as narcissistic. And I walk with a lot of high
performance athletes. That's why the particularly strikers, who are the
ones in soccer professional that scored the goals. So these
(11:40):
guys have they're not narcissists, but they have narcissistic traits
and tendencies because there's so much pressure on them to
be the game winner, and so therefore they're really there's
high account accountability levels, so therefore they feel like they
need to look after themselves first, their own performance first,
or they can't win for the team. So I train
(12:01):
those guys. That's what I do for eleven and and
I think, okay, a lot of them will get narcissistic
traits and I'm the one that coaches them. But again,
it goes back to it, Okay, if you high perform,
and I think there has to be a certain of
selfishness and your decision and your approach to things. So
sometimes I think throughout the years have been called a
narcissist quite a lot.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
But here's the deal, though, I feel like everyone has
narcissistic That's I'm going to circle back to it. Like
when you said that, I'm like, well, I think everyone has.
Like when you look at the checklist, there's a checklist
of what like ten plus things. I'm like, everyone at
some point has had a narcissistic trait, you know. So
I'm like, I think we all can embody traits of it.
I don't think you're like, because I saw a thing
(12:45):
where there's what is the actual percentage of someone actually
being a true narcissist.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
So here's my take on that. So it's an extremely
low percentage. It's I think it's two percent or something
of the population. But the problem with that is is
that narcissis don't present for treatment, they don't think anything's wrong.
So that number is I have no doubt, you know,
very Let's say I'm just underestimated.
Speaker 4 (13:08):
We'll say I'm sure that.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
There are way more out there than we realize because
they don't present for treatment, so it's very hard to
get a number, and a lot of the times it's secondhand.
So it's my patients coming in and telling me these
symptoms and these descriptions of the relationship and me saying
that really meets criteria for somebody who has narcisistic personality disorder.
Speaker 4 (13:30):
But rarely do I get some in my office and
say this is what you have and let's work on
it. It just doesn't just doesn't show up like that.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Well, I think it's interesting because I do feel you know,
obviously we all have axes, and so you know, I've
had my ex call me a narcissist. He's had some
axes call him an narcissist, and so I remember going
to therapy and I'm like, am I one? Like I'm like,
I don't know, Like let's try and figure it out.
She's like you even asking if you're exactly exactly you're
not one, and I'm like, exactly, but it's true.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
I mean, I think to your point earlier, when you're
at an elite level for an athlete, you know, and
even if CEOs you look at anybody who's in this
high performance for their area, there's a certain type of person.
There's a certain type of person that you know can
play at that level, right, And so you have to
have that ability to self regulate, be very kind of
(14:25):
inside yourself, because so much of that high level sports
is mental, right, and so you have to be a
certain type of person. The difference is is that those
qualities may very well work for you, let's say in
the sport at the time during a match or you know,
but if you can switch that when you're with your
(14:45):
wife and when you're with your friends when you're not playing,
that's not narcissism, right, That's that's just as long as
you're able to switch it within different scenarios. That's just
you using your traits that are a benefit to you
at that time. It's when you're like that all the time,
regardless of this situation, it's pervasive across all areas of
(15:07):
your life.
Speaker 4 (15:07):
And then as far as exis.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
I mean, that's that's one of the reasons why I'm
so happy that people have me on to talk about this,
because so many people use that term they are narcissists
as a dumping route because you know they were they
were adults. If there's no other way to say it,
you know, and that's the only reason why.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Yeah, Well it's interesting because some of the things that
when you go on there, it's like, Okay, you know,
why did you go Is it the lack of empathy
at a time? But I'm like, you're but like you
work on empathy, you you know, there's you go to
therapy like and that's I think someone that, like she
was saying, that doesn't go into places and like we're
both trying to work on things that we know are
(15:43):
parts of ourselves that need a little growth in areas.
So I think someone that is a true narcissist, like
she said, like they don't come in for quote unquote
like treatment, you.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
Would have no concern about empathy. And and if if
you needed to have empathy in a particular situation, you'd
fake it cognitively, you'd be aware that you know, you're
supposed to feel empathy, but you don't, and there would
be you wouldn't have any motivation to do that unless
it benefited you. And that's definitely not going to be
continuously going to therapy and having conversations with your spouse
(16:15):
about it and doing the hard work.
Speaker 4 (16:17):
That's a narcissist won't do that.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
Yeah. I think it's also a well that in the
last few years gets banded around and generalized so much.
It really does. I mean, as soon as someone hears
something that they don't want to hear a couple of times,
then you've banded a narcissist.
Speaker 4 (16:36):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
You do things that you need to do because like
so you said to me this morning, Well, if you
need to go for a run, you go for a wheer,
you need to go to the gym, you go to
the gym. That's just me taking care of myself because
I know what I'm like mentally if I don't do
those things. Yeah, right, Whereas I think, yeah, I think
it's just you just hear it so often. Now, Like
(17:01):
who was it we had on a few weeks ago
and it was about and I said, it was also
really generalized. It was a condition.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Oh, I have no idea, I can't remember.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
But again it was like another buzzword that people want
to use when they're really uneducated about what. So that's
why it's always best to speak to people like yourself
who are experts in that field. They know exactly what
it takes in the situation to present themselves to be
a narcissist, because people just jump on these words and
(17:32):
and call people narcissists, and it's it's pretty damaged when
they're not narcissistic people.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
It is because what you know, when when you do
have that personality disorder, you know, people will say to
me sometimes, you know, you're a psychologist, and you know,
how could you talk so badly about you know, and
it's it's it's not that it's just the behaviors and
the manifestation.
Speaker 4 (17:53):
Of narcissis personal disorder.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
Is it is that bad, And so when you report
the symptoms, it ends up being the really horrific thing
that it sounds like. And so people just throw their
exes into that because it kind of removes accountability and
it makes it easier for them to push them away
or to you know, just talk badly about them or if.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
They won't saying that person's a narcissists, actually the narcissists.
Speaker 4 (18:17):
Say correct, and you'll see that someone that's a narcissist.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
If you listen to how they talk about their exes,
they're always the victim, always their exes are always crazy,
they have narcissistic personality disorder. They stalk them, they you know,
all of the they won't stop contacting them. And so
if you hear that as a pattern of somebody's exes,
it's not that that's the only red flag, but if
you hear that, it's something to just kind of, you know,
(18:41):
be mindful.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
Of, right, No, for sure, what do you say to
someone that is in a relationship with a true narcissist?
What is your biggest tip for them to to, you know,
get help, because obviously I don't. Have you ever seen
someone willing to actually do the work that is a
narciss No, yeah, there's no. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
Now, I mean to be fair, I have seen people
and then they bring their significant other in and what
really ends up happening is the significant other on the surface,
and this is where I think people get confused. On
the surface, they could have grown up in an environment
with a narcissist, let's say, and so they develop these
patterns of behavior that on the surface look exactly the
(19:24):
same as a narcissist, but they're not. They just look
the same. And so when they hear listen, your behaviors
are hurting me. They don't want that, they don't want
to hurt somebody that they love, and so they're willing
to change those patterns. Whereas a narcissist, if they come
ince my office with their significant other, it's either going
to be they're going to walk out mid session, they're
(19:44):
going to absolutely hate me, and they're going to say
the worst therapist in the world.
Speaker 4 (19:48):
She doesn't know what she's talking about.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
We're never going back to her again, or they'll try
to charm me, which won't work and they'll leave. So
there's that distinction that I like to make that sometimes
people on the surface that behaviors can look similar, but
I always say the function of them or the reason
behind why they're doing is very different.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
What do you think the most damaging abuse from a
narcissist is? Like? Which trait?
Speaker 1 (20:12):
Oh God, I mean, it's all You can't really tease
it apart because it's all it's financial, emotional, sexual, physical, psychological.
It doesn't you can't really tease that apart. You know,
some are more than others. Let's say, you know, maybe
there's more emotional abuse than physical abuse. But I would
have to say I think the psychological emotional long term abuse.
(20:37):
It really just strips people of their sense of self
and it is so unbelievably damaging.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
Of course, is that effectual mind and not you're body.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
In that, Yeah, it's that coercive control. It's it's the
kind of it's the kind of abuse that you know. Outwardly,
they're lovely, right, they're they're philanthropic, even they're they're happy,
they're the life of the party. But then behind closed doors,
they're just monsters and they're very abusive.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
What do you think the biggest red flag is to
look out for in a relationship or a partnership in
for narcissistic abuse.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
Yeah, so in the beginning, and this is again where
it's really tricky. In the beginning, it looks really good
right in the beginning, there's all the love bombing. So
it's this it's not just that you connect with somebody.
It's like a whirlwind romance. It's like a tidal wave.
You're calling each other's soulmates. Immediately, you're talking about moving in,
you're talking about getting married, you're talking about having kids,
(21:31):
and it's kind of like you don't even know their
middle name yet, right, Like you don't even know what
foods they're allergic to. I'm sure they could be wonderful,
but soulmates, you know, maybe, but highly doubtful.
Speaker 4 (21:44):
And it's not an organic process.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
And I'm not even talking about people that just connect
right away and they really fall for each other and
they know that it feels right.
Speaker 4 (21:51):
This is different.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
This is you know, constant calling to you know, constant texting,
speaking for hours through the night when you just met,
and seeing each other and then going on dates every
night after that and planning vacations after date number two.
They start to pull those vulnerabilities out of you, and
even though it may feel good and you can trust them,
(22:12):
it really is a dangerous thing to do because what
they're really doing is they're storing these for later use
down the road when they start the manipulation, when they
start to really kind of strip you of your sense
of self, they use those vulnerabilities to really get it
your your you know, those those deep wounds.
Speaker 3 (22:30):
So they constantly go into race relationships with agendas yes,
and strategies.
Speaker 4 (22:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Yeah, I'm just almost like why though, like why and
how like how does that because that just sounds exhausting,
Like I.
Speaker 1 (22:45):
Don't know, so if you think of it as you know,
you feel like you exist separate from other people, right,
And so with a narcissist, they don't feel that they
almost exist unless they're getting this constant source of we
call it supply, right, or fuel from other people, whether
that's pissing you off and making you angry on your
(23:07):
birthday and so you're, you know, really upset, and they
know they cause that because they had access to your
emotions or.
Speaker 4 (23:13):
You know, they just need that access to people.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
Whether they're getting something good back or negative back, it
doesn't matter. It's just what they take to fill themselves up.
So if you think of everybody as like a gas pump, right,
they just go up and just keep filling, and when
you're depleted, then you serve no purpose for them, which
is why a lot of times they have a lot
of these relationships and there's a lot of infidelity because
they always have kind of people waiting in the wings,
(23:38):
so that when they get bored or they're not getting
there that supplimate, they have other people they they can
go to, same with their friends and coworkers.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
Can people go through phases of the life based on
trauma are based on something that's happened, and they go
through phases of narcissism i e. Three, four or five
years or is it just you're a narcissist and that's
you for your whole life.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
So yeah, so a personality disorder is pervasive. They rarely
like to diagnose it before the age of eighteen because
kids they're still their.
Speaker 4 (24:26):
Frontal lobes are still developing. But really they don't diagnose that.
So let's say eighteen.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
So personality disorder, true personality sutter is life long. It's
a pervasive way of interacting with the world. It's a
way you see the world, the way that you interact
with the world. So it's not something that changes. Now
something like borderline personality disorder. There's treatment for that, so
you can have people that heal from that, but it's
always something they're going to need to deal with in
(24:52):
terms of their inner personal relationships. So you think what
you're talking about is that when people have a trauma,
oftentimes trauma responses can look like narcissistic behaviors because your
body is in this fight or flight mode, You're nervous
systems disregulated. You may be extremely agitated and freak out
on people without you know doing, but you're not doing
(25:13):
it with the intention of control. That's the thing narcissists
when they do these actions, the goal is to gain
power and control. I think what you're talking about is
more of a trauma response. The goal isn't to get
power and control. The goal is just trying to keep
yourself safe. And I think that's why you see that
fluctuation as they start to heal, you may not see
that if it's going through a tough time, like an anniversary,
you have a traumatic event, you may see those symptoms
(25:34):
increase during that time.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
Yeah, I know that makes sense, and I think that's
probably why some people misdiagnose themselves too, because you know,
even just I know which time period you're talking about.
I know a time period in my life too where
I'm like, well, I was storing people and I was
you know, but it was all a protection, yeah, and
my own trauma from the abuse that I had in
my past.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
So yeah, you know, yeah, I think it just goes
back to, Okay, those behaviors were not my normal behavior
in that in that time period. So I'm I'm a
tunnel a narcissist or of my Because you just questioned
your behaviors. And I'm referring to a period of three
or four years in my life where I questioned a
(26:13):
lot that I lost who I was essentially in some
of my traits were bodyline narcissistic, but I knew I
wasn't a narcissist. Another an ever strategized or have agendas
over people or try to control never ever. I think
it was probably more the okay, feel feel that you
(26:34):
wanted have people there that you know will be for you,
kind of have that safety blanket. Yeah, that's what I
was more referring.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
You heard a lot of girls in that process. But
you know what, we all hurt people hurt people, you know, so.
Speaker 4 (26:50):
We've all listened. I always say this life is that
life is hard, is hard, you know.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
So I think the fact that you're just acknowledging it
that it was just when you can say that it's
a distinct period of time that's different from who you are.
You know, that's more of a kind of a response
to you know, either a depression or anxiety or trauma,
response to something that alters where you're at at that
time period, and then you kind of go back to
your baseline or you go back to a healthier state,
(27:19):
whereas with narcissism, it's just it is.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
It just is.
Speaker 4 (27:23):
You may look different in different situations, but that's on purpose.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
Yeah, okay, we're not.
Speaker 3 (27:33):
We were.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
I think it's like all of it was like trauma
based for both of us.
Speaker 3 (27:37):
But I think if you're stripping it, like throw a
lessoners and like men or women, if you strip, if
you really strip it back, how do you how do
you like five things or six things where people can
almost recognize a narcissist as the partner or the father
or the mother or the brother. What would you say
(27:58):
those five?
Speaker 4 (27:59):
So they probably won't realize it at first.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
Again, which is why I'm glad people do you know,
talk about it because it's such a slow and citious.
It's like a leaky faucet, right, So it's just this
slow drip and then all of a sudden one day
you realize that you're standing in your kitchen and your
knee deep in water.
Speaker 4 (28:16):
So things like.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
If you notice that they are really agitated and get
really angry to any type of perceived criticism, right, if
you're like, oh I think I like the white shirt
on you better, they go into attack mode, right, or
they start to get really controlling things like you're going
out with your friends for dinner and they now all
(28:41):
of a sudden are sick and they need you to
take care of them and stay at home, and if
you go, they call you, you know, start calling you
all the time, and I can't believe you leave me home.
You can see your friends anytime. So you'll notice that
they do certain things during important thing the things I
should say, but but things that mean stuff to you. Right,
you have, you know, a work event, or you get
(29:02):
a promotion at work and instead of congratulating you, they
start a fight with you because you forgot to fill
the car up with gas.
Speaker 4 (29:10):
Right.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
If you feel that you have to always walk on eggshells,
that you never know what you're going to get from them,
and that's done on purpose, right, to keep you kind
of under their control. But if there's no rhyme or
reason to why they're flying off the handle, and you
feel that you need to watch what you say, watch
what you do, you find yourself starting to kind of
lie by omission or tell these little white lies, not
(29:34):
because there's anything wrong with it, but because you're nervous
that they'll get mad something is ridiculous, as you bought lipstick,
you don't say anything because if you do, they're going
to say, well, why are you buying lipstick? Who are
you trying to look good for? So you just don't
tell them things. And then what happens is, oh, now
they find the lipstick, and now you're a liar. Right,
So a lot of this kind of gas lighting switching
(29:57):
things around, but you lose yourself than that, so it's
hard to kind of realize what's happening. The other thing
is if you find yourself starting to become isolated from
families and from family and friends, because that's something else
that they really try to do. So if you find
that you're really kind of detached from people, that's also
(30:17):
kind of an indication. The other thing too, I would
say for finances, this is a big thing. I don't
think people talk about enough. If, for example, they say, oh,
you know what, I don't want you to work, you relax,
I'm going to take care of you like I make
more money anyway. So just just stay home right like this,
You do what you need to do, you take care
of the house like it'll be fine. But now you
(30:40):
have to ask permission for even the smallest thing to buy,
you know, food at the grocery store or something. And
then it turns into you don't have your logins for
your bank account, you have no idea what assets you have,
you have no idea what investments you have. You don't
know what credit cards are out in your name. And
this is where a lot of times people will realize
after the relationships there's three four hundred thousand dollars in
(31:02):
debt in their name they knew nothing about. So there's
that financial control as well. So even though it may
seem like a relief that you don't have to worry
about your finances, if they really push for that, that's
a red.
Speaker 4 (31:13):
Flag too well.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
And that's when a lot of women are adventure hopped
too because they that's right, Yeah, they stay because they're
financially they're like they don't even know or anything. What
do you think are the biggest myths about narcissistic abuse?
Speaker 4 (31:30):
The biggest myths.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
That narcissists go for week weak people with low self esteem.
They actually don't. They go for very you know, strong, opinionated, successful, smart, confident,
you know, just people that are really are able to
carry themselves. Well, one because it looks good for them,
(31:54):
makes them feel good, but also it's it's a further
way for their you know, further way down to knock
them down. So if they start dating somebody that has
very low self esteem, they're not going to get as
much supply from that because they're already low, so it's further.
Speaker 4 (32:10):
Knock them down.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
So they usually go for people where they have more
access to to watch them fall essentially, So there's that myth.
Speaker 4 (32:19):
I think people assume that they go for people who
are weak. That's not true. That's who they end up
after the abuse. When they get out of the relationship,
then they're a shell of who they used to be.
Then that that is true.
Speaker 1 (32:30):
I think the other thing is that, you know, when
people say, well, why don't they just leave, I don't
think people understand that it's not a normal type of breakup.
It's not even just your standard runn of them all
toxic breakup. It's you know, there's a high risk for
violence when women leave, so that's a big reason why
they don't leave. The family court system is a nightmare,
(32:53):
and they're petrified that their ex is going to say
that they're crazy and take their kids from them, and
I see it happen so many times. It's it's gut
wrenching to watch, and they're very scared about that because
the narcisst will use the children as a pawn and.
Speaker 4 (33:07):
Threaten, you know, threaten based on the kids. I'll take
the kids from you.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
You'll never see them again. And then, as you said, finances,
they they feel trapped. So it's it's a myth that
you know, it's it's why don't they just leave it?
Speaker 4 (33:19):
You can?
Speaker 1 (33:22):
And then I think the other myth is that couples
therapy works does not. It does not work with a narcissist.
So if you feel that you are with a narciss
if this is making sense to you, get your own therapy.
Therapy with a narcissist does not work, and I never
recommend it. M oh And the other last myth I'll
say is that they don't know what they're doing. They
(33:43):
absolutely know what they're doing. Some of their behaviors may
be out of habit because they're used to doing it,
but when brought to their attention, it doesn't stop them.
Speaker 4 (33:51):
So they're very aware of what they're doing.
Speaker 3 (33:55):
How many how many people narcissists percentage a physically abusive.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
You know, I'm going to say like seventy five. I mean,
I don't know many patients that I've had where that's
not the case.
Speaker 4 (34:10):
It's pretty high. I mean, it's always the.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
Coercive control, the emotional, the psychological abuse. The problem is
that it depending on how long the relationship goes for
the abuse gets worse. So if it wasn't physical for
like the first six years, seven years, it very well
still could become physical and.
Speaker 4 (34:28):
Sexual as well. So it's hard to answer that, but
a lot, a lot.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
You have two workbooks out Find Your Calm, so a
workbook to manage anxiety, and then a second one, Find
Good Habits for a workbook for daily growth. What is
your if to summarize kind of both of those your
best tips for managing like your number one tip for
managing anxiety and then also for just daily growth that
(34:56):
we can do into practice.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
Yeah, So for anxiety or any discomfort, you have to
sit with it. You have to sit with it and
feel it. You can't just talk about it. You can't
just try to change your thinking. You actually have to
sit with the discomfort. And their strategies obviously you can
use to not you know, so it's not torturous for you,
but mindfulness skills and things like that. And as far
(35:22):
as growth, I'm a big fan of behavioral approaches. I
think it's important to change your behavior first and then
you get a new experience and then as a result,
it becomes less and less scary or less and less
anxiety provoking.
Speaker 4 (35:37):
The key is starting really small.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
So if your goal is to clean your house, I
want you to pick one room, and then I want
you to break the room in half.
Speaker 4 (35:43):
And then I want you to pick one section and
that's what you do.
Speaker 1 (35:47):
And I think that's really helpful because then you gain
a sense of mastery and it kind of gives you
that motivation to keep going.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
What is the one thing you know when you when
you talk to your your patients that come in, what
do you see the most that people in this day
and age are are needing the most of? Like what
are what are they lacking the most that you want
to give them?
Speaker 1 (36:07):
I think the biggest just validation that they're not that
they're not alone, that they're they're they're far from alone,
that there is light at the end of the tunnel,
that it's not all doom and gloom. That the fact
that they're here is a huge step. And it may
it may be a process, but you're here and you
can do this. I think that's the biggest thing, because
I think on social media we're so focused, you know,
(36:29):
myself included on these are the symptoms of this, this
is what this looks like, but there's not as much
kind of I don't know, validation, I guess in a sense.
Speaker 4 (36:37):
So I think that that's really important.
Speaker 1 (36:39):
So that's really the first thing that I that I
go to is just letting them know that this is okay,
and this is normal and nothing's wrong with you.
Speaker 4 (36:45):
None of this is your fault.
Speaker 2 (36:48):
Yeah, Or that they deserve it too, right, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (36:51):
No, that they there's nothing in the world that they
did to even remotely deserve this. Nothing.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
Sure, You've got a podcast called Nexte Narcissism Podcast. What
can listeners expect on on that?
Speaker 1 (37:05):
Yeah, so we I have a bunch of guests on
who are very much involved in the field in terms
of narcissistic abuse, course of control, family court, divorce, co parenting,
and then you know, we do episodes just on anxiety
and how to manage that.
Speaker 4 (37:20):
And how to manage.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
Trauma, how to kind of heal yourself after narcissistic abuse
and what that looks like.
Speaker 3 (37:28):
Have you ever had Have you ever had a narcissist
on that you can delve into the mind and they
can tell you what they would do in certain situations
and how they operate. You've never had the one that's transpolent?
Speaker 4 (37:39):
Is that no, because they won't they won't think anything wrong.
Speaker 3 (37:42):
But I have.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
I have been on a podcast where the very clearly
realized that the person was a narcissist, and it was
really difficult. So it's you get that that clinical kind
of feeling your stomach. And so I haven't I personally
haven't had anyone on or interviewed anyone, but I've definitely
been on.
Speaker 4 (38:03):
Yeah, it's definitely an odd conversation to have.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
What's the percentage between women and men narcissists?
Speaker 1 (38:10):
So technically more men than women, but I think it's
also a lot of women are misdiagnosed as having anxiety
and depression because narcissistic personality or looks a little bit
different in women. They use a lot more emotional manipulation, guilt, shame,
things like that. They look at even their kids. A
(38:33):
momth as like an extension of themselves that there's no
any time you try to kind of move towards autonomy,
you're considered this horrible child.
Speaker 4 (38:43):
So it's more a lot of.
Speaker 1 (38:46):
Emotional manipulation and just a ton of guilt. And you know,
for in marriage is kind of really taking financial abuse
to the next level, just spending no concern for you know,
any death that you're in no remorse. So if it
looks different, but there it's I would say men are
a little higher.
Speaker 4 (39:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
Interesting, Okay, well, where can our listeners find you? And
thank you so much for coming on too.
Speaker 4 (39:14):
Yeah, this was great. This is great.
Speaker 1 (39:17):
Yeah, my Instagram's doctors the psychologist and my website doctor
Jabisuckerman dot com.
Speaker 2 (39:23):
Amazing. Thank you for coming on. We appreciate you. I'm
glad this is great.
Speaker 4 (39:27):
Thank you so much. Guys.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
Thanks Jamie, you too.
Speaker 3 (39:31):
Hi, It's really good to speak to people like that. Yeah,
I didn't know the nuts and bolts of what they're
dealing with, which is so important because we live in
a society in the world where people google things and
try and self diagnose, or people google things and try
and diagnose others. And abuse others or shame others and
(39:53):
to being something that they're not.
Speaker 2 (39:55):
Yeah, it is.
Speaker 3 (39:56):
She's shedding the light on real nacessary people don't even know.
I will deny that the narcissists. Where does you? And
I don't you worrying about me?
Speaker 2 (40:08):
I'm always like, let's talk it out.
Speaker 3 (40:10):
Let's like like the paruss try also, but also the
fact that people should be really careful label and labeling
other people narcissistic.
Speaker 2 (40:19):
The one I know why I've I've had a couple.
I feel like I feel like I've had a couple.
I know one was like to a t the others.
You know, I think we're but I don't. It's not
that I would say it, but I don't feel like
there's no any point of being like, you're you're such
a narcissist because they don't already don't believe any of
(40:41):
the things that they've done in our relationship, So why
would I even waste my breath to say that there
are a certain situation or is a certain person or
this and the other. Because I'm like, That's why I'm
always saying with like co Parrington too, I'm like, you
think you're your ex is going to listen to you
now when they when you guys were at odds when
you were married and they didn't And you know, so
I'm like, what is what is the even the point
(41:02):
of having a discussion like why don't you understand me? Well,
you didn't understand me or listen to me or have
empathy or care about those things when we are married,
So what like why even get into the argument post divorce?
You know, it's like and then so, and there's no
point of saying like you're a narcissist or you're a
you're a badness or that, because it's like, okay, like there,
they don't care. They don't care what you think or
(41:22):
or who they are because they're they're just who they are.
And and a lot of times, like you said, like
she was saying too, they can divorce to people you know,
they have their their mind's made up of who that
person is because of the situation that happened in a marriage.
Speaker 3 (41:36):
Yeah, also can like if you're if you're worn down
by something, you're in a relationship where you're worn down,
or you're in a situation where it could even be
a boss that's that's worn an employee then, and your
behaviors are the subject of you being worn down. That
can be perceived the some people's because your behaviors change
the world, that they're a narcissist. Yeah not, They'll just
(42:00):
them they're just a person that's worn down and doesn't
know how to doesn't know how to care anymore. So
we'll say what they want about regard the care for
the consequences because they're worn down and basically don't get
they'll beyond caring.
Speaker 2 (42:14):
Yeah. Well, I mean, even like you know, people that
have you know, would reach out and like, oh, they're
just be careful with this person because they were X,
Y and Z, and it's like, well, you guys also
might have just not worked well together too.
Speaker 3 (42:26):
I don't think so. I think that's more of a
what's that Facebook page called where people were? People go
on and.
Speaker 2 (42:33):
Oh the are we dating the same person? Yea?
Speaker 3 (42:38):
So those I think those people that go on there
take take the safety issue aside. Okay, if people are
warning something there like maybe this person isn't safe for
some sort of reason, okay, But I think the people
that go on there and try and ruin relationships for
others before it's even had a chance to flourish or
(42:58):
nutia are more narcissistic than the people that are actually
on there talking about because those people of the strategy
for trying to ruin a relationship or ruin someone's reputation
just because they had a bad experience.
Speaker 2 (43:13):
Or that the person didn't like them back or something.
Speaker 3 (43:15):
Yeah, they feel okay, I feel rejecting. I'm I'm going
to go on this Facebook page and and talk about
someone that I didn't I didn't have a good experience
with just because they rejected me.
Speaker 2 (43:25):
So I feel like they've had a lot of cheats
on there though some people that have you know, we're
dating the same dude at the same time.
Speaker 3 (43:34):
Some only no was on the modern around, this modern
world of social media and dating, and the lines are
blood now compared to what it used to be. Anyway,
back to back to NASAs, I thought she was great
on giving real clarity on yeah, on what people need
to look out for, a great red flagwise, but also
(43:57):
I think that's finally there's evens, there's evens fine lines
between like people just having a bad day and acting
like I guarantee you everyone that's listened to this will think, Okay,
one of those narcissistic traits. I've done that at one time,
but I behave like that. We all have.
Speaker 2 (44:17):
But if you want more information, listen to her podcast.
Next up, Narcissism Podcast it Is with Jamie Zuckerman. Check
her out, see you next week
Host
Jana Kramer
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