January 24, 2022 • 49 mins
Jana opens up about something she’s never had in a relationship in the past, but is now finally getting with her new guy.
Kathryn got to know Jana’s boyfriend a little TOO intimately and is ready to tell us everything.
And, we learn the truth about narcissism and gaslighting from Dr. Ramani, along with help on how to manage toxic relationships.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Wine Down with Janet Kramer and I Heart Radio podcast.
Should we just get right to the penises? Or are
what are we talking about today? What penises? What are
you referring to? Um? Which ones? Yeah, there's a lot
of them. There's a lot of them. Which one are
you referring to? I don't know. You said let's get
to the penises, and I mean, my mind's going to
(00:24):
a lot of places. I just want to know. Did
you see the headline last week? The uh again? Which headlines?
They were like they picked up it was just so
silly because it's your fault, like you are the reason
(00:44):
why that whole thing even started. They're like, why would
she talk about that? I'm like, in my defense, technically,
Eastern was the one that brought that up, Like there
has to be something wrong with him, Like I'm sure,
I'm sure he is a micro penis. I'm like, that
was Eastern. Why didn't any but he quote Easton? Why
didn't it say Easton hopes that Jane Kramer's boyfriend has
(01:05):
a micro penis. I would love that headline. I didn't
realize that made for us, And I apologize. I don't
want to when I said it, I realized that couldn't
come off. It's like body shaving and stuff, and I
felt I did feel bad if you have a micro
penis out there, I'm sure it's beautiful and there's someone
out there that loves it, and old bodies are beautiful.
I was just looking for uh. I was just looking
(01:27):
for something about this man that might explain other qualities
about him. That's all. It was just so funny though,
because I'm like, I didn't try to bring that up,
but I'm like, but then he did. I'm like, well,
it was kind of funny because I did tell my
girlfriends like there's got to be something wrong, right, So
but the fact I'm like that that's what they picked
like picked up. I was like, oh my gosh. I'm
(01:48):
like not you know that. I'm happy and but um wow,
I'm seeing that. I'm sorry, I'm seeing the headline. There's
multiple news outlets. Thank you for that. I really appreciate you.
(02:11):
I just like that. It Page six says Janna Kramer
once believed boyfriend had a small believe Like what is that?
I know? I was like, I didn't once believe, like
that's that's the way out of contact. Yeah. I was
like not at all. I would never say that, Like,
you know, we joked about it, but like, how do
you put that? How do you once believe that he doesn't? Well, Katherine,
(02:35):
you would know what was like wait a minute, Oh yeah,
go on first, I need some context here else is
gonna be wear headlines? No, I'm not judging. Wow, Janna
(03:03):
Kramer's podcast co hosts has a sexual history with current boyfriends. Negative.
Not at all, not true. No, the story is going
m let's just say I have access to a lot
of Janna's stuff. Okay, that makes sense, and things just
(03:29):
gotta pop up, you know sometimes as they do, and
then you know, traumatized. But it's fine. Who hasn't swiped
too far in the camera roll before? I mean we've
all been there. It was me going through the camera.
Oh no, I would have been way more prepared. The
(03:53):
best part about this is like it happened right before
a podcast episode, so we were like about to film
and you know, a picture came up or something when
she because she was on my computer. I mean, it's
my my computer, right, and she goes all of a sudden,
I hear, oh my god, this was an incoming text. Yeah,
(04:22):
and here's the problem. It's like, don't react and don't read.
But how do you not react to that? Like you know,
in my head in those two seconds before I react,
it's like, don't react. I love this man's style because
like I want to pull the curtain back of it.
We record this podcast in the morning. I know, I
know you guys are in different time zone, but it's
(04:42):
still like before noon a lot of the time. I
want some lunch and danna here you go. And so
because we were just being like flirts, cut sees that
see or whatever and yeah, and then she didn't know
(05:04):
that Catherine was on my computer which has my messages
on there. Does he know now that he does? I
told him that's uncomfortable. That's fine. So young love right,
So um so yeah, we I mean we were dying.
(05:25):
She goes, She was like what she goes? That that
that that she goes. I can't see it. I can't see.
The thing is that I had forgotten about it. I
think I blocked it out of my mind. But now
you're bringing it. But also I think it was before
it was at our friends Queendom podcast. Yeah, because I
(05:49):
think everybody else, Oh that's right, it was right. It
was it was ripe, So that wasn't in the morning,
that was at morning. That was like, yeah, it was
it was our girl's queen. Then that's right. And we
did it at like eight thirty because I was like yeah, yeah, yeah,
I think so, I don't know. I was traumatized. It fine, Um,
(06:11):
that is so funny. I mean, I guess you can
answer the question. That was a bigger I'm just kidding.
I don't dwell on this too much. But what what
angle did you choose? That's oh my god, I don't
remember that the best, shoot I do. Wow. Have you
(06:42):
ever sent a dick pick Easton? Yes? Okay, so that's
a common thing, because I gotta be honest with you, like,
you know, shoot, I've been in the date. You know,
I was married for seven something almost years, Like I
don't I never got dick picks, so, you know, so
it's like I don't know. Dick pick was like the
still a thing, so like I was actually wants them,
(07:03):
No one wants them, I don't think. I mean, I
don't know. I don't know. I've done it with like girlfriends,
you know. But like even then, I felt weird about
it because it's not a good looking part of the body.
I don't think a dick. I disagree. Okay, you don't
like I mean, you're a man. I think girls like.
(07:26):
I don't know, whatever you like. You know, it's okay
to like whatever, whatever you're into. Yeah, I don't know.
I just I think that, um it's a That's why
I asked about the angle, because it's a hard thing
to photograph too, you know, as someone say, it was nice. Okay,
see I didn't like the angle. Oh I love the angle.
I love the angle. This is hilarious. This is like, wait, God,
(07:55):
sorry to my husband. Great they were friends because I
totally didn't tell them that he doesn't It's fine. I
just you know, I wanted to bring a little comedy
because I knew you just got done with therapy and
I didn't know what I was walking into. Thanks, that
was your therapist needed, pick was needed. Okay, it was
(08:16):
a hard one. Oh yeah, that was good though. God
I love her. I leave and I just cried because
I love her so much. I know, yeah, I know,
it's so stuff. Cards on the ground, cards. I usually
wait TIN sessions to get to this, and we're not
at TIN. But we're gonna go for it. What are
(08:36):
the cards. It's like you put their like emotions basically,
and you put them one pile, ones that you're feeling
right now, ones that you want to feel in the future,
and the ones that don't apply. Let's just say mine
were all over the place. When they were all over
the place, But it's good. I still have a photo
of mine. Actually I'm gonna i'll pull it up because
I'm curious to see which where if we were, ours
(08:57):
are the same. But I remember mine. It was like
a lot of mine was like it was when I
was still married, Like I felt I'm scared and sad
and closed off and broken and like those were like
all of my cards and that's where I want to go.
And she was kind of like, okay, like and how
do you get to that? And I'm like, I'm not,
don't stay in my marriage, you know, or you know,
(09:19):
and she was just like and you know, she's not
trying to lead me in that direction at all. But
then she's like, okay, well you know, or whatever else
can we do? Or it's like it's just hard realizing
that when you're like, oh, shoot, these are these are
the cards I laid down, like it's just like this,
like it kind of sucks to see, but it's also
I feel like very healing to see too, to notice
(09:40):
where you're at. I didn't have a clear answer for
how do you get there? That's the hard part. You're
so clear. I mean I wasn't because I stayed another year,
but you kind of were clear with what the answer was.
I feel like, well, things had to change or I
had to leave, and things did change, so I had
to you know, yeah, why is the Mark coming on? Oh? No?
(10:00):
Probably I was like, oh no, oh no, there he goes,
there he comes. I don't think I could have had
that conversation with that here really earlier. I don't know.
It's uncomfortable Mark. Did they tell you to come on? No?
But that is not a good reaction to me, joining
it should be. Can I just oh, you shaved? Well,
(10:25):
I'm always clean shaving. Oh maybe it's the hat, Okay,
that's true. Um. I have got so many d ms
about how people think you look so different than what
they thought. Someone thought you had a big beard. Yes,
everyone thinks I have a beer and then I'm really overweight.
And that's followed my entire I've in a radio for
thirty years, and I get that all the time I
(10:47):
have had even DM Tim, I was like, Mark, I
have liked it a text, and I started thinking, I
think I thought you looked different too before I met you,
for sure, but I don't remember what I thought you
looked like. You didn't think heavy, and I don't think so.
I think I was just surprised when I saw I
don't know, I don't know why my voice doesn't match
my face, and I think that's strange. But whatever, I
(11:08):
think it matches you perfectly. That's why I'm so confused.
Did you hear any of this previous conversation. No, I
was yourself for a hike and I was like, oh,
I gotta get back in time for wine down, And
then I was a few minutes late, and I was like, well,
JOHNA sometimes a few minutes later, but no, you're on time.
I was late. I'm sorry here, I am that's fine.
Have you ever seen a dick pick before? I never have,
(11:29):
and I've also never never sent one, never received one,
but I would only send one to my wife, and
I don't think she'd be tooth old about that. Twenty
years in Yeah, I mean, she's probably like you know
at this point whenever she's like, Okay, good for you.
(11:51):
All right, well you missed quite an exciting UM chat.
I mean it was it was pretty funny. But you
can us and back. But we're going to take a
break and then we're gonna get We're going to continue
on the conversation we had from last week with Dr Romani. Hi,
(12:16):
Dr Rimani, how are you. I'm good? Thank you? How
are you? I'm fine? Thank you. It's nice to see
you meet both of you. Oh, it's such a pleasure
to have you on. Um. We we talk a lot
about what you're an expert in, and UM, it's just
it's absolute honored to have you on the show because
you are an expert in this field. And I'm just curious,
how how did you become an expert in narcissism? Was
(12:39):
it a relationship you had or and it was a
slow burn? Actually, I was as a professor. I was
an academic and doing research on really difficult patients that
would come into clinics and make the nursing and reception
staff miserable. And at the same time, I also to
private practice, and I was seeing patients coming in and
talking about the same marriage over and over again, and
(13:00):
minute dawned on me. Nobody's teaching these clients about narcissism,
and they're blaming themselves for this other person's abusive behavior.
And I thought, Oh, this is actually if I just
educate them on this, maybe this will set a lot
of them free. And it did. I myself have family
members who are horribly narcissistic. I've been in relationships, I've
been in work settings, but I gotta be honest with you.
It was other people's experiences that pushed me in this area.
(13:22):
And I've been doing this work god since the mid
or like two thousand six. And when I first started
doing nobody was talking about this, and people like, girl,
you're working on something nobody cares. But I care about it,
So I don't. I don't, I don't need I don't
need anyone else to care about it seems to be
helping the people working with and then I and then
over the next ten years more people got more interested
in it. So sort of something I was doing quite
(13:43):
quietly for a very long time. Well, it's interesting too,
because I feel like even just from the stuff that
I share on my social media or what we share
on the podcast, like so many people are like, oh wow,
Like I had no idea that like this is a
part of narcissism or narcissum or oh my gosh, my
husband does it, sir. And then I started to feel
like a little bad because I'm like, well, I don't
(14:04):
want to ruin people's stuff. At the same time, I
want it's nice for I think, for me at least
two to get awareness and for other people to get
awareness of things like and in my relationship, I was
like I felt crazy and I felt, you know, like, well,
why does he hate me so much? And all these things.
But I'm like, okay, wait, that's not actually the reality,
and I don't know. So it's it's nice to get information. Yeah,
(14:27):
I mean I think that a lot of people struggle
with this, like oh, I don't want to use this word.
It feels so clinical, it feels so judgy, and it's
so interesting how much effort we put into protecting abusers.
It's really fascinating, like how can we make this abusive
person look good? I can't get behind that anymore, you know.
And if people don't like the words, come up with
(14:47):
words you feel more comfortable with. But at the end,
of the day, somebody who's doubting your reality and validating you,
leaving you constantly off balance and then having their tantrums
so then they feel better, but you're left holding the bag.
It's not okay. It's just simply not okay. Yeah, I mean,
I know I can say. I mean the amount of
times I'm like, hey, can we take that out because
(15:07):
I don't want Mike to get mad at me if
I say this, or hey can we take But it's like,
why am I so afraid of his reaction? But it's
the that reaction is like, but wait, no, don't hate me,
like I'm not I'm not the one that like you know,
like that I didn't do that, Like you're the one
that ruined the marriage and all these things, but like
why do you hate me? But yet I can't speak
my truth because you want me to shut up and
stop talking about it. And that's the past. So I
(15:30):
think you bring up some such an important point here,
which is so many people in narcissistic relationships feel like
the bad one, that I'm the bad one, that I'm
saying these bad things. So so many people become very
isolated with their truth. Right they might have maybe one
or two really close friends and if they're lucky, a
therapist that gets it. But then to the world, they
(15:51):
feel like, do I need to keep faking it? Do
I need to keep having people thinking that this is okay?
And if I'm the one who's calling this stuff out,
does this make me the bad one? And remember, the
narcissistic person's needs are often being met in the relationship
all the time because the other person's running in circles,
so they're not the bad one, right, So it really
traps a person in an interesting corner. And and I
(16:13):
think that it's funny you you put it that way.
Is that you said, I don't I didn't. I was
afraid of his reaction. I don't want to say things.
I was afraid of his reaction. And for you, Jenna,
it's also about going back and thinking when in your
life were you also afraid of other people's reactions? Like
where does that come from? Because for some folks it's
like you said, I don't want to be the bad one,
(16:34):
But for other folks it's I'm just afraid of anchor
and rage. Like they may have grown up in a
home that was characterized by anchor and rage, so those
kinds of reactions are terrifying for them, So they keep
giving in and giving in and giving in to the
narcissistic person so they don't have to tolerate something that
is so unsettling for them. So yeah, I mean, what
(16:55):
do you do or what would you say for one
that is co parenting with someone that you know? Yeah, like,
how do you how how would you recommend stepping into
those waters? Because I I My whole thing is I
and I know this and I talked it last week,
As I said, I I engage because I'm thinking that
(17:16):
I'm going to get empathy from the past, right and
you're not so right there? So that right there, you
just gave the core of what the key element of
how to co parent is, which is radical acceptance and
realistic expectations. The empathy wasn't there in the marriage. Why
is it all of a sudden going to start showing
up now? And some people believe, well, it's their kids,
(17:37):
so that's going to bring out empathy. Not so much.
I mean, ultimately, the narcissistic person is very self serving
and the children are end up being sort of accessories
in that life, and so and and so it's a.
It's a realistic expectation that none of these patterns are
going to change. And what I often tell people who
are co parenting UM with a narcissist and they're no
longer in the relationship anymore, I tell them, you're doing
(18:01):
the equivalent of single parenting with an elephant on your
back because you still have to negotiate this territory with
the narcissist. The challenge people have with their co parenting
with the narcissist is they can't believe that this person
keeps breaking the rules. And I say, the realistic expectations
they're always going to break the rule. I tell that
folks were single who are co parenting with a narcissist,
(18:24):
you are the sole bringer of routine, of order of empathy.
You've got to be two parents because the other parent
is either a Disneyland parent or they kind of show
up and are on point when they want to be,
but not at other times. So you're the place where
you bring consistency, you bring safety, you bring the things
that a child needs, and where a lot of people
(18:47):
get stuck and they're like, this is so not fair. Mhm, okay,
in life's not fair, you know, So what is fair
is recognizing and we know this, we know this from
the research. All a kidney is one really good parent
that's on point. One really good parent can save a child.
So a lot of people say, my kids are going
to be ruined. I tell every parent who's co parenting
(19:10):
with a narcissist, the biggest risk people have when they
have a narcissistic parents, even if it's only one, is
that their child is going to struggle with anxiety because
it's so unpredictable. You don't know if your parent is
on point, like you just don't know how to please them.
It's a lot of hoop jumping. You might even see
your other your co parents, your other parents struggling. So
I'd say the majority of survivors of childhood narcissistic parents
(19:34):
end up as anxious adults, and we can sort of
step them back from that. The bigger concerns are the
kids who end up going off the rails in different ways, like,
for example, they become narcissistic themselves, or they turned to
other ways to cope. They rebel in a really hard way. Drugs, alcohol,
you know, acting out, sex, rock your drugs, rock and
roll kind of thing. But by and large people become
anxious from this. So I tell folks who are co parenting,
(19:57):
choose your battles Wisely. Some people are say this is
what the parenting agreement says, and they get into that fight.
I say, listen, let's say give you an example. A
lot of narcissistic folks during divorces will fight tooth and
nail for custody the way they want things, the holidays
and what. They all fight, fight, fight, and you break
your heart and your relent on some of it. Then
(20:19):
the time comes when they're actually supposed to take the kids,
maybe six to nine months out, the fight is no
longer there, and they're like, well, I can do this
week aad and I can't do the school thing. And
you know what I tell the healthier co parent, I say,
grab up those dates, like nobody's business. Every day with
your kids is a good day. They just wanted to
show they wanted to beat you down. I'm not convince
say you ever wanted to be with the kids. So
(20:40):
when you can get those kids, don't say but you said,
just document, document that on seven days of a month
they said they were going to be with them, they
went out of town, and they did this because if
you decide to update the parenting agreement and you're using
an app, something like Talking Parents or something like that,
using an app to document all of that, that can
actually then be entered into a court record. So I
(21:02):
tell people, any day you can get your kids, good day,
and I understand it might be inconvenient. Another thing to remember,
if you're co parenting with a narcissist plan on them
dropping the ball. Always have your plan B and your
reinforcements in place so when they can't show up and
they won't do this, you're just seamlessly like, okay, no worries,
got it. And people said, I feel like I'm being
taken advantage of. I tell folks, this would have been
(21:24):
a lot easier if you got a hundred percent custody,
so in a way, you would have been already doing
these workarounds. It's not about fair, it's not about their
getting away with something. It's about your kids. And that's
what I always tell people when it comes to co parenting. Yeah,
and I also feel like too, and that's really good advice.
Where I was having a tough time because you know,
obviously I didn't want to be divorced. I don't want
(21:44):
to be co parenting, but when I do have my
kids now, it's like my main focus is giving them
memories because they're not going to remember that they were
with mom seventy percent of the time and dad thirty.
Like they're gonna remember the memories we make, the times
we spend together, what we do. They're not going to
remember like, oh well, I mean they'll probably know with
my situations like yes, we were at mom's more, but
(22:08):
still like they're not going to know the exact you know,
when when they're kids, and just make the memories and
and focus on that and then yeah, I mean to
your point. He asked me if I you know, I
wanted them over his holiday break, and I was like
one thousand percent absolutely, because I'm just I like, I
want that time with my babies as much as possible.
So yeah, I love that. I do have a question though,
(22:32):
on okay, because there's a lot of characteristics of narcissism,
So how many do you have to have to actually
be a narcissist because I feel like a lot of
times you can look at and go, well, like, I
mean I kind of like do maybe one of those?
So What we want to remember is that when we
think about narcissism, think of it as like sort of
the core elements of it, and those are things like
(22:52):
lack of empathy, entitlement, arrogance, grandiosity, being very sense positive
and reactively sensitive when somebody gives criticism or feedback, being
really egocentric, being really superficial, constantly seeking validation. That's the core. Okay. Now,
some people say, well, I like praise. Does that make
(23:13):
me narcissistic? No, that makes your human being right. Or
person might say, I don't know, I love clothes, I
love fashion. Is that superficial? No? Not if you're empathic
alongside that. You see what I'm saying. So I think
people kind of get lost in sort of the armchair
kind of theatrical version of narcissism and they forget that
it's really a constant, pervasive presence. This is not somebody
(23:36):
who is usually a nice person and then on a
day when they're tired or lots going wrong, they snap
a little bit and then they quickly apologize like I
had no right to do that. This is not one
bad day. This is about years, lifetimes of bad days
interspersed with good ones. That's how they trick us, right.
They're charming, they're charismatic, they're confident, they're curious about us.
(23:57):
They seem super fun until they don't, and then the
bad days get mixed in with the good days. But
the problem is the bad days are brutal. They're abusive,
and they're invalidating, and their manipulative and their gas lighting.
They're terrible bad days. It's not just somebody who's just
I don't know, leaving towels on the floor. So I
don't you know one thing I tell people, there's no
(24:18):
such thing because healthy narcissism. Narcissism by definition, is an
unhealthy pattern. I think that it's on a continuum. There's
milder levels of narcissism, where some people are more almost
emotionally stunted, really immature, really vapid, really ridiculous, really validation seeking,
their empathyist botty, like if they're having a good day,
(24:39):
they think everyone's having a good day, so stunted, they're
they're like forever adolescent. That's that's at the milder level.
But as we keep going into the more severe levels,
it's really really bad for us. But even those milder levels.
I don't see how a person could make a relationship
of any depth go with a person like that for
any long period of time. As soon as it going
gets tough. Those people have no interest in real life.
(25:02):
They just want to again forever be childish and immature,
and so they're not really They're not great for marriage
and children and growing old together. They're not made for that.
So on the other side of that, I just think,
you know, it's such a thing now, Like you said,
people weren't really talking about it much ten years ago.
Now we're all starting to talk about it. So if
(25:23):
people are recognizing this and themselves and they are owning
that and they're gonna, you know, want to try and
get better, do you just recommend therapy for them, or like,
how do you get out of this narcissistic behavior. So
it's a good question. In the majority, and in the
vast majority of cases, this doesn't change there really doesn't.
(25:46):
It is the ones who change are the unicorns. I
think I've seen significant change in a narcissist twice in
my career, and I've been doing this for twenty five years. Okay,
in my own life, like personal life, not people I
treat I've seen significant change twice. I mean, and I'm
(26:08):
fifty six, right, so I mean I'm telling you like,
these are these are not short periods of time that
you know, so it doesn't happen. And I'll tell you what,
it's very very hard to find a therapist I can
work with a narcissistic client. These are the you know,
these are the jedis of therapy. Like, it's very very
I've worked with many narcissistic clients, some of them ten
(26:29):
years or longer. I think I'm a good therapists an
amazing work with many clients. With the narcissistic clients, I'm
not kidding you. I think we've moved the needle like
a millimeter and we've done good work. And it's just
the problem is this, when a narcissistic person faces frustration, stress, disappointment,
anything that sort of pops their little bubble boom game on,
(26:50):
they lose it and so and they take it out
on the people around them until they can manage that.
They get out of their heads that everything always has
to be perfect for them all the time, they're going
to keep having these meltdowns. So yes, I think therapy
is absolutely critical and I would say for somebody who says,
I don't like this pattern in me, I am aware
I'm blowing people's lives up. I am aware that I'm
(27:10):
acting like a jerk. I am aware that I'm not
a nice person. Great, Okay, I think it takes a
lot of courage to do that. Yes, therapy, but above
and beyond therapy. Every day, every hour, every fifty every
minute of every day, that narcissistic person has to be
self aware of how their words, their actions, they're everything
(27:34):
affects other people, and think before they speak, find ways
to cope with their disappointment, recognize other people have needs.
I have to tell you I've worked with some narcissistic clients,
and I remember a couple in particular who said they
really did. They gave it the old college try. They said,
I can't be bothered. This is exhausting. And you know
what they said, I'm gonna break up my marriage. I
mean an end of my marriage. And then this person,
(27:55):
one person particularly, had a woman on the side. He's like,
I'm ending my marriage, I'm ending my relationship with this woman,
I'm having an affair with. I'm moving out, I'm moving
into an apartment I have lots of friends that I
don't you know, and they're fine with me being an
ass and so and then that's it. And then this
person recognized I don't have what it takes and I
don't want to hurt people. This person acknowledge I don't
(28:16):
want to hurt people, but I can't be in a
relationship because I I don't have patience. I don't care
about another person's feelings other than at that's the most
superficial level. And then he found someone he's like, but
I like sex. He found somebody paid once a month
or maybe twice a month, come over, hang out, leave
it to in the morning, and he's like, that's really
all I really wanted. And it was an incredible revelation
because this was somebody saying, this is too much work.
(28:37):
It's almost like trying to lose weight. We know what
we need to do, change what we eat, exercise. Most
people like, oh, heck, now, I gotta eat me my
cheese cake. I got I'm not giving up this other stuff.
And it's a very similar model for people who are narcissistic.
A lot of them don't, you know, even if they
want to do the work. It is a life, life,
daily daily commitment to that. I think manymarcissistic people they'll
(28:58):
have no insights. But the who do have insight if
you did the work every day and paid attention and
recognize it's not okay to rage with other people when
you don't get your way, and you have to have
empathy and yes, you have to wait in line like
the rest of us. I mean, like I said, I've
seen it happen maybe four times in my life, and
they worked hard, They worked hard. What if the narcissists
says they only act this way towards you because you're
(29:22):
like because they hate you so much, like they only
they only act this anger like I'm not like that.
I'm not that person anymore. I only do this because
because of you and you bring this out in me.
It's not true. I mean, it's it's completely not true.
This is a pervasive pattern. What we see with a
lot of narcissistic folks, though, is they can really be
brutal in their most high stakes relationship like an intimate
(29:43):
relationship or family relationship or something like that, but all
of their other relationships are so superficial and are giving
them narcissistic supply. You're such a great guy, you're so cool.
There's a lot of that, you know, but there's no
depth there. Like, these people are almost either as superficial
as the narcissist, or they're a na blurs, or they're
benefiting in some way financially or something. There's some benefit
(30:03):
to them for staying in the friendship. So all of
their other relationships are so superficial or with enablers. So
it is quite conceivable that just a very small group
of people are getting the worst of it because other
people aren't going deep with them. But this idea that
you're the only person I treat this way, they treat
everybody badly there. I imagine this is a person who
(30:24):
would treat store clerks badly or a person on an
airplane bad Like they're just rude when things don't go
the way they want. It's just that that high impact person,
the intimate partner, usually gets the worst of it. Yeah,
so when you know, obviously you've got um amazing books out,
so the one that should you stay or should you go?
I mean, what what is your number one thing that
(30:46):
you tell couples or people in relationships when dealing with this,
Like when because a lot of times you're like, when
is enough enough? And I'm like, for me, it was
like you know that I had my final stobs, you know,
six seven years later, but I mean it took a
it took a while. Um, but I think it's it's
hard because they make you feel so crazy that even
to this day, even co parenting, I'm like, am I
to you know? He's like, calling yourself an EmPATH is
(31:08):
comical and I'm like, but I do have empathy, and
I I I'm like, you call your calling me a narcissist,
like you're the narcissist. It's like this back and forth,
Like I'm like, how like it's like and I'm like, well,
I don't know, maybe I am like I like I
then I started to question it, and I'm like, am
I crazy? Well that what you just described is gaslighting? Right?
(31:28):
So everybody, everybody, and in indition to the word narcissism,
everybody's using the word gaslighting and most people are using
it wrong. Gaslighting is not a one off, it's a process, right,
and a gas lighter you kind of have to have
some trust or some skin in the game with them, right,
you want in essence, you you believe in that person
for some reason, you love them or they're your boss
(31:49):
or your family member, like you want to believe them.
So over time, what the gaslighter does is they doubt
your reality. I never said that, that never had and
you're being too sensitive. You have no right to feel
that way. And you're like, okay, so now your reality died,
Like don't I have a right to feel that way?
Or did that really happen? Well, we're divorced. My feelings
(32:10):
don't matter like an issue anymore. Yeah, feelings don't matter. Okay,
so you're reality is being doubted. But then they double
down at that point and then they say, wow, you're
so sensitive, like have you been seen by a psychiatrist
because there's something really wrong with you? Or you're not
remembering stuff like I'm wondering are you drinking? Like there's
something wrong with you. Like they'll literally try to paint
(32:33):
a picture of that person whose reality they've always already
doubted as being crazy or as being something's wrong with them, medically, psychiatrically,
you name it. So now this person might actually start
buying the height. Maybe I'm the narcissist, Maybe I'm the
one who's being unreasonable. Maybe I am too sensitive. I
do need to get therapy, and now this person it's
(32:53):
almost like how you bring someone into a cult. You
make them so reliant on you for reality that they're stuck.
And so that process of gas lighting is why people
get stuck in these relationships for so long, because the
narcissist in some ways is the holder of the reality.
If somebody gets into therapy with someone good, that good
therapist is a girl, you're being gaslight and then a
(33:13):
prison was that and then you walk them through it
and you have them keep journals and bring it. I
I've had so many clients have recorded conversations and play
it in session, and I'm like gaslight, minimization, abuse and validate,
like we just break it down and there thank They say,
thank you so much. Now I can make some choices.
Keep in mind the whole the concept behind should I
(33:34):
say or should I go? When I wrote that book
was it's very simplistic to tell everyone going through narcissist
narcissistic abuse leave. Obviously that's the best path because the
less time you spend with the narcissist the better. It's
like something toxic. If you're not near the toxic thing
like secondhand smoke. You won't feel sick right the closer
you are to it, the secret it makes you. But
that's not an option open to everybody. Because of custody,
(33:57):
because of money, because of culture, legion, whatever a person's
reasons are. I have no right to sit there and
say you've gotta go. I do understand a lot of
people feel stuck or they still aren't ready to go,
So I give them both. I tell them this is
what these two pathsways, and these two options look like
what you say, six or seven years before I figured
out what was going on and wanted to get out.
(34:19):
That's not odd. I'm I'm to tell you now, I
think I've worked with folks who have been in narcissistic
marriages for sixty years, so it it literally can take
and they leave when they're eighty. Believe it or not,
too like it's not. I mean, there's a point at
which more and where people get the knowledge and recognize
this is never going to change, because that's the baseline.
It's really not going to change. And even if there's
a little bit of change, the person hurt by the
(34:41):
narcissists has been hurt in such a permanent way. They
might say, good for you, you want to go, change, go,
but you've done You've damaged me too much. I can't
do this anymore. And so the idea, though, is what
the narcissistic person tries to do. It's all about dominance,
it's all about power and control, and it's all about
harming the other person in a way that it makes
(35:01):
it harder to leave, and even when the relationship is done,
to sort of keep them down. And that's and so
it's I really tell people, fifty percent of people stay in,
fifty percent of people go, and there's no shame in
either of those. And a lot of people go and
then they come back. And that's also normal too, because
there's so much hope that people have. It's going to change,
(35:22):
it's gonna change. I'm telling you here to tell you
it's not going to change. So you know that's the
fact is if you go, it's not going to change.
I can give you that guarantee. If you go back,
I can also promise you it's not going to get better.
So starting a new relationship, then what are some of
the signs that you know? I mean, obviously, right now,
everything is amazing with me, new me, new man. But like,
what is something I mean? I kind of with with
(35:44):
my history. I'm very sensitive to things, But is there
anything that I should be aware of or a sign
or um anything that you say to people that start
new relationships. I always tell people when they start new
relationships after having been through a toxic one, you've got
to understand what a healthy relationship is. I'm always struck
by how many people don't even know what the definition
of a healthy relationship is. And it's kindness, compassion, respect,
(36:09):
what we call mutuality of regard. Like you both, there's
a back and a fourth and awareness of what's important
to the other person. There's something we call reciprocity. There's given, take,
there's compromise, and there is a growth orientation that both
each person in the relationship wants the other person to grow.
In other words, in a narcissistic relationship, the person doesn't
(36:29):
want the other person to grow, doesn't want them to
succeed because it will make them look bad or they
are In all narcissistic people have abandonment fears. They always
think the other person is going to go because they're
so insecure. That's the true core of narcissism, insecurity, and
feelings of inadequacy. Right, So it's kind of sad when
you think about it, but I don't care how sad
it is. Abuse is abuse. So in a new relationship,
(36:50):
I tell people, you've got to look for those fundamentals,
and if those fundamentals aren't there, you've got to get
out of dodge. But then it's almost the behavioral stuff.
It's things like how does a person receive feedback? If
a person gets really touchy and defensive and ikey when
you give them feedback, it's a really really bad sign
because you may not like what someone's saying. They might
(37:11):
give you feedback that's uncomfortable in a new relationship. But
if that person says, oh, this is so hard for
me to hear, but I need to hear it or
can hear, or say give me a minute, instead of
raging or saying yeah, you say that about me, Well,
let me tell you this about you. That's the kind
of thing we're looking for. I'd say that shows up
pretty early. In a more toxic relationship. We look at
(37:32):
how a person treats other people. How do they treat
people who do have less power around them? That might
be people who work in service occupations, who might work
in a household. How are those people treated, how are
they talked about if that there's any dismissive kinds of
conversation there. I would tell people to get out how
much validation and admiration do they need? Do they does
(37:53):
it feel like they always have to have every you know,
it's almost of the flip side of that, like when
they go in everywhere, they need to be every you know,
Bartender's best friend and everyone has to like um, and
it's all about how they look to the world, you know.
But that approval those different than admiration, Jenna. You know,
approval is that's something for you to work on in
(38:15):
your own therapeutic because in some ways that's a that's
sort of a monkey on our back. But that's very different.
That's almost like an inner child piece of your week
that wants to be approved. But admiration is like, look
how great I am, you know, And it's very different.
So as to something something else you'd want to look for,
I'd also look at how whether someone can be present.
Are they always looking at their phone or their watch
(38:37):
or out the window. It always seems like they're looking
at the door to see if someone better is going
to sort of metaphorically walk in. Are they able to
be present even in moments you might consider boring or tedious.
That's another thing to pay attention to. Those are the
signs I tell people, And if something doesn't feel good
the other I also tell people what's the pace of
the relationship. Narcissistic people like fast relationship because what it
(39:00):
means is that red flags get ignored the faster they
move and the quicker they kind of get it sealed
the deal. Now a person is in something pretty deep
and they're like, this isn't so good, but now I've
agreed to I don't know, live with someone or marry someone,
or I'm pregnant or whatever. Those things can actually get
people stuck in. Narcissistic people, as a rule, tend to
want to go fast because it's just sort of like
(39:21):
I said, for them, it sort of gets around the
insecurity for them because they feel that the other person
is less likely to leave. Got it, well, DRMANI thank
you so much for coming on and I think hopefully,
I mean I know it helped me a lot, and
hopefully everyone that's listening, Um, it helped as well, and
then UM, we're gonna, um put your books up here
(39:42):
on the site. Um, don't you know who I am?
And should I stay or should I go on Amazon
get them? I'm ordering them right now. UM. So thank
you so much for coming on and hopefully I'll talk
to you soon, but hopefully not, you know, like I
kind of want to stop talking about this now, so
but I appreciate you. Thank you so much. I keep
(40:02):
for this time and I thank you, and I hope
your listeners benefit as you did as well. And then
let people know that after narcissistic abuse, I've seen actually
incredible love stories and life stories. So there is life
after this. I love that. Thank you, Thank you. It's
so funny that one of this I'm like, oh wait,
I'm like, well, I mean I like to move fast
sometimes it was like, but I mean it's different this
(40:26):
time around. Yeah, And I think that that's just you
can have insecurities but not be Yeah, snarcissistic. It's very
interesting some of that. I mean, so it's good. She's
she's very good. You can tell she's like a yeah, profess.
I found it very interesting though, Like, um, I don't
you know, I can't really think of necessarily narcissistic people
in my life. But it seems so like kind of
(40:48):
hopeless if you see that in yourself, you know what
I mean? Yeah, but I guess like so many more
people wouldn't see them. They just wouldn't see it. Yeah,
Like my X will never say he's on that just
like kind of made me sad because it's like, well,
what's the hope for people to see this in themselves?
And it's kind of like they just don't change, right that.
(41:08):
And that's why I'm this side. I'm like, oh, I'm crazy.
Maybe he's not and I'm But then on the other
side is yeah, hopefully you see that rightful, Yes, that
she's seen two people right change right in all her years? Yeah,
I know that's that was that was eye opening for sure. Hi, Mark,
(41:36):
so Eastern caught me up on what you guys are talking. Yeah,
a lot of um that seems to be the theme
of the beginning and end of the show. Was a
lot of that from and just like that, Oh my god,
So I did you watch? I watched and just like that,
but I must have missed that the two different full
frontal veil. Yeah, I just missed it. I don't know
(41:58):
how because I watched it, but I must have been
talking about it because I don't know how I missed
it because I don't know that. We're both pretty quick.
But okay, it was like, well, question for Katherine, if
there's two, and then just like that, I would like
to know where rank the three that you've seen in
the past twenty four hours. I looked away so fast
(42:20):
when I figured out what I was looking at, And
can we please just again talk about the angle? The
angle matters in this situation. Yes, and we didn't get confirmation.
I cannot tell you between Harry, which surely that was fake,
and the guy at the door, whoever that guy was,
(42:44):
you missed them both, missed them both. I don't know.
I mean, I was very happy with a photo, but
you know, it was really just meant for me, not
my best friends, so for me, and maybe that was
what strikes me, is that why dating has changed a
lot in the past twenty five years since I've been
out of the game, Because that's seems like standard operating procedure,
Like it's no longer for weirdos anymore. It's like standard,
(43:06):
it's like normal standard. It's totally yeah, I mean, that
was the only one he's ever sent me, because it
was like, it wasn't weird. It wasn't. It was like
it was because I was about to do like the
wine down thing with the girls and like, so he
was like, we were a joke. Yeah, we were being
like I thought it was like kind of a joke. Yeah.
And then because I had said that I have never
(43:26):
like sent a thing, I thought I was like and
the kind of requested but kind of a punchline to
the conversation. Yes, I don't want it to seem as
like he wasn't. He wasn't just like here's my day.
I'm assuming I don't know. I looked away, so I
definitely thought it was unsolicited. Ten o'clock in the morning, No,
(43:50):
it wasn't ten. It was it was before the girls went.
I thought it was at like eight o'clock. Yeah, I
don't know. Good night in the evening and the even Yeah,
And it was like we were like joking and like
being like because a lot of wine. And then I
saw that, and then I was like, we all had
a lot to drink. Ian included I see, did you
send him something back? No? I did not, Okay, all right, good. Okay,
(44:14):
this is better. This seemed a lot seamier when I
was first described. No, I think I'm okay with it. Really,
that should only be done for the purposes of a
listening laughter in my opinion, Yes, from the male side anyway. Yeah,
that's I was telling Jane earlier, like I don't think
anyone really wants that. I don't think so really. I
(44:39):
know it's like things can get hot and heavy, but
like I think the amount of women and men that
are like, oh my god, I really want to see
a picture of a venus right now. Like I just
feel like that fashion has to be so small, so small.
It's fine. On the other side, like men want to
see topless picks all the time, all the time, kind
of the morning, any time. Discriminate. Why are we dick
(45:04):
shaming my boyfriend In all fairness, I mean we're just
wired differently, that's all we're saying. Okay, so it's okay
for guys to get boob photos, but it's not okay
for girls to get dick pecks. Let's say one's okay,
one's not okay. Whatever you want to do in your relationship.
We're just saying that's that's kind of funny that it's
(45:26):
never really enjoyed from the female perspective, and it's yeah, OK,
that's fair. Yeah Steinfeld that said, a women's body is
a work of art and a man's body is a jeep.
It's meant for utility, moving things around, to getting things done,
and a women's body is to be admired. And I mean,
I will say though, I love getting like like you know,
(45:50):
picks or like aw some like a like it was like, okay,
cute and then like he send a cute We've done
that like twice, like a gym photo. Like his body
is sexy, like yeah, your body, Yeah, yeah, I like it.
But I mean that's happening like women go to a
strip club. They're screaming, they're laughing, they're yelling, they're having
a blast man at club and just stare. That stare
(46:13):
is not good. Yeah, I don't think. I don't like that,
would you like Nikoto shop club? Don't bother me? That
bothers me. I mean I don't. I don't think he
has since we've been well, he he went like with
his brother before he got married or something, maybe a
long time ago. You guys go, I've been to one
(46:35):
in my entire life. It was Phoenix, Arizona and I.
We sat near the door and I talked to the
bounce of the whole time because I was so fascinated
by this little world, this little microcosm of all these people,
these women who do they really want to be here?
Do they eat this? Are they miserable? And you have
to walk them to their car at night? Now it's
really fascinated by that. I really got a lot of
(46:56):
information out of this guy, and I've never been back.
Would your wife be mad? Yeah? I think so, Yeah,
I mean never relationships different. I think most women would, yes,
but some are fine with it. Katherine, you're fine with it.
I mean if he was doing it like every day
or every other week or often. I mean again, I
think he's gone once since we've been married and fourteen years.
So if it was, like if I felt like it
(47:17):
was a problem and it was something that he was doing,
then yes, I would definitely have a problem with it.
But like going with a bunch of guys for a
bachelor party, that doesn't matter. It all made me uncomfortable.
Like one woman walked by in a schoolgirl skirt and braces,
and I thought oh man, appealing to the lowest combat
the nominating here and I'm here and I'm a customer
(47:37):
like that, I don't belong here. That's a problem. I
don't like that. I went when I was sixteen. They
didn't card me. It was the best thing that ever happened.
And uh, I went with my friends for birthday and uh,
this woman came up to me and she's like, do
you want to dance? And I thought she meant like
dance like a dance star like I since I thought that,
(48:00):
and she brought me to a private room and I
was like, oh man, how much is this gonna cost me?
And she she broke down the prices and it was
sixty for full dude, forty for topless, and twenty for
like in her bikini. And so I went to the
a g M and it pulled out my last twenty dollars.
There was an eight dollar service charge on that a
g M. Her name was Illusion, and we went into
(48:25):
this She was very nice. She's very very attractive, larger
black woman. And we go into this side room and
it was like, um, there was like a bench alongside
a wall. There was an older man and they're giving
someone a back massage and then she starts dancing on
me and the song Faint by Lincoln Park was playing,
and uh, I didn't know what to say, and so
I just said I really liked the song and she's like,
I do too, baby, and then she she put my
(48:47):
hands on her. Oh my god, because I'm like sitting
on my hands thing like, Okay, in the movies they
say you can't touch him. She put my hands on her,
and it was it was wild and so insane. I
had to figure out how I was gonna get, say,
spend all my money there. Oh my god. I wonder
where Illusion is now? The Crazy Horse in San Francisco
(49:09):
circa two and four or whatever it was. Wow, this
episode is just below the belt. Wow. Well on that note.
On that note, I'm just imagining Eastern getting a lap
dance right now and Mark talking to all the girls saying,
why are you here? Can I be your sugar daddy? Okay, guys, um,
(49:40):
we're going to clean it up next week. We're gonna
get a pastor on Okay, Okay, y'all have a good week.
See next week
Wine Down with Janet Kramer and I Heart Radio podcast.
Should we just get right to the penises? Or are
what are we talking about today? What penises? What are
you referring to? Um? Which ones? Yeah, there's a lot
of them. There's a lot of them. Which one are
you referring to? I don't know. You said let's get
to the penises, and I mean, my mind's going to
(00:24):
a lot of places. I just want to know. Did
you see the headline last week? The uh again? Which headlines?
They were like they picked up it was just so
silly because it's your fault, like you are the reason
(00:44):
why that whole thing even started. They're like, why would
she talk about that? I'm like, in my defense, technically,
Eastern was the one that brought that up, Like there
has to be something wrong with him, Like I'm sure,
I'm sure he is a micro penis. I'm like, that
was Eastern. Why didn't any but he quote Easton? Why
didn't it say Easton hopes that Jane Kramer's boyfriend has
(01:05):
a micro penis. I would love that headline. I didn't
realize that made for us, And I apologize. I don't
want to when I said it, I realized that couldn't
come off. It's like body shaving and stuff, and I
felt I did feel bad if you have a micro
penis out there, I'm sure it's beautiful and there's someone
out there that loves it, and old bodies are beautiful.
I was just looking for uh. I was just looking
(01:27):
for something about this man that might explain other qualities
about him. That's all. It was just so funny though,
because I'm like, I didn't try to bring that up,
but I'm like, but then he did. I'm like, well,
it was kind of funny because I did tell my
girlfriends like there's got to be something wrong, right, So
but the fact I'm like that that's what they picked
like picked up. I was like, oh my gosh. I'm
(01:48):
like not you know that. I'm happy and but um wow,
I'm seeing that. I'm sorry, I'm seeing the headline. There's
multiple news outlets. Thank you for that. I really appreciate you.
(02:11):
I just like that. It Page six says Janna Kramer
once believed boyfriend had a small believe Like what is that?
I know? I was like, I didn't once believe, like
that's that's the way out of contact. Yeah. I was
like not at all. I would never say that, Like,
you know, we joked about it, but like, how do
you put that? How do you once believe that he doesn't? Well, Katherine,
(02:35):
you would know what was like wait a minute, Oh yeah,
go on first, I need some context here else is
gonna be wear headlines? No, I'm not judging. Wow, Janna
(03:03):
Kramer's podcast co hosts has a sexual history with current boyfriends. Negative.
Not at all, not true. No, the story is going
m let's just say I have access to a lot
of Janna's stuff. Okay, that makes sense, and things just
(03:29):
gotta pop up, you know sometimes as they do, and
then you know, traumatized. But it's fine. Who hasn't swiped
too far in the camera roll before? I mean we've
all been there. It was me going through the camera.
Oh no, I would have been way more prepared. The
(03:53):
best part about this is like it happened right before
a podcast episode, so we were like about to film
and you know, a picture came up or something when
she because she was on my computer. I mean, it's
my my computer, right, and she goes all of a sudden,
I hear, oh my god, this was an incoming text. Yeah,
(04:22):
and here's the problem. It's like, don't react and don't read.
But how do you not react to that? Like you know,
in my head in those two seconds before I react,
it's like, don't react. I love this man's style because
like I want to pull the curtain back of it.
We record this podcast in the morning. I know, I
know you guys are in different time zone, but it's
(04:42):
still like before noon a lot of the time. I
want some lunch and danna here you go. And so
because we were just being like flirts, cut sees that
see or whatever and yeah, and then she didn't know
(05:04):
that Catherine was on my computer which has my messages
on there. Does he know now that he does? I
told him that's uncomfortable. That's fine. So young love right,
So um so yeah, we I mean we were dying.
(05:25):
She goes, She was like what she goes? That that
that that she goes. I can't see it. I can't see.
The thing is that I had forgotten about it. I
think I blocked it out of my mind. But now
you're bringing it. But also I think it was before
it was at our friends Queendom podcast. Yeah, because I
(05:49):
think everybody else, Oh that's right, it was right. It
was it was ripe, So that wasn't in the morning,
that was at morning. That was like, yeah, it was
it was our girl's queen. Then that's right. And we
did it at like eight thirty because I was like yeah, yeah, yeah,
I think so, I don't know. I was traumatized. It fine, Um,
(06:11):
that is so funny. I mean, I guess you can
answer the question. That was a bigger I'm just kidding.
I don't dwell on this too much. But what what
angle did you choose? That's oh my god, I don't
remember that the best, shoot I do. Wow. Have you
(06:42):
ever sent a dick pick Easton? Yes? Okay, so that's
a common thing, because I gotta be honest with you, like,
you know, shoot, I've been in the date. You know,
I was married for seven something almost years, Like I
don't I never got dick picks, so, you know, so
it's like I don't know. Dick pick was like the
still a thing, so like I was actually wants them,
(07:03):
No one wants them, I don't think. I mean, I
don't know. I don't know. I've done it with like girlfriends,
you know. But like even then, I felt weird about
it because it's not a good looking part of the body.
I don't think a dick. I disagree. Okay, you don't
like I mean, you're a man. I think girls like.
(07:26):
I don't know, whatever you like. You know, it's okay
to like whatever, whatever you're into. Yeah, I don't know.
I just I think that, um it's a That's why
I asked about the angle, because it's a hard thing
to photograph too, you know, as someone say, it was nice. Okay,
see I didn't like the angle. Oh I love the angle.
I love the angle. This is hilarious. This is like, wait, God,
(07:55):
sorry to my husband. Great they were friends because I
totally didn't tell them that he doesn't It's fine. I
just you know, I wanted to bring a little comedy
because I knew you just got done with therapy and
I didn't know what I was walking into. Thanks, that
was your therapist needed, pick was needed. Okay, it was
(08:16):
a hard one. Oh yeah, that was good though. God
I love her. I leave and I just cried because
I love her so much. I know, yeah, I know,
it's so stuff. Cards on the ground, cards. I usually
wait TIN sessions to get to this, and we're not
at TIN. But we're gonna go for it. What are
(08:36):
the cards. It's like you put their like emotions basically,
and you put them one pile, ones that you're feeling
right now, ones that you want to feel in the future,
and the ones that don't apply. Let's just say mine
were all over the place. When they were all over
the place, But it's good. I still have a photo
of mine. Actually I'm gonna i'll pull it up because
I'm curious to see which where if we were, ours
(08:57):
are the same. But I remember mine. It was like
a lot of mine was like it was when I
was still married, Like I felt I'm scared and sad
and closed off and broken and like those were like
all of my cards and that's where I want to go.
And she was kind of like, okay, like and how
do you get to that? And I'm like, I'm not,
don't stay in my marriage, you know, or you know,
(09:19):
and she was just like and you know, she's not
trying to lead me in that direction at all. But
then she's like, okay, well you know, or whatever else
can we do? Or it's like it's just hard realizing
that when you're like, oh, shoot, these are these are
the cards I laid down, like it's just like this,
like it kind of sucks to see, but it's also
I feel like very healing to see too, to notice
(09:40):
where you're at. I didn't have a clear answer for
how do you get there? That's the hard part. You're
so clear. I mean I wasn't because I stayed another year,
but you kind of were clear with what the answer was.
I feel like, well, things had to change or I
had to leave, and things did change, so I had
to you know, yeah, why is the Mark coming on? Oh? No?
(10:00):
Probably I was like, oh no, oh no, there he goes,
there he comes. I don't think I could have had
that conversation with that here really earlier. I don't know.
It's uncomfortable Mark. Did they tell you to come on? No?
But that is not a good reaction to me, joining
it should be. Can I just oh, you shaved? Well,
(10:25):
I'm always clean shaving. Oh maybe it's the hat, Okay,
that's true. Um. I have got so many d ms
about how people think you look so different than what
they thought. Someone thought you had a big beard. Yes,
everyone thinks I have a beer and then I'm really overweight.
And that's followed my entire I've in a radio for
thirty years, and I get that all the time I
(10:47):
have had even DM Tim, I was like, Mark, I
have liked it a text, and I started thinking, I
think I thought you looked different too before I met you,
for sure, but I don't remember what I thought you
looked like. You didn't think heavy, and I don't think so.
I think I was just surprised when I saw I
don't know, I don't know why my voice doesn't match
my face, and I think that's strange. But whatever, I
(11:08):
think it matches you perfectly. That's why I'm so confused.
Did you hear any of this previous conversation. No, I
was yourself for a hike and I was like, oh,
I gotta get back in time for wine down, And
then I was a few minutes late, and I was like, well,
JOHNA sometimes a few minutes later, but no, you're on time.
I was late. I'm sorry here, I am that's fine.
Have you ever seen a dick pick before? I never have,
(11:29):
and I've also never never sent one, never received one,
but I would only send one to my wife, and
I don't think she'd be tooth old about that. Twenty
years in Yeah, I mean, she's probably like you know
at this point whenever she's like, Okay, good for you.
(11:51):
All right, well you missed quite an exciting UM chat.
I mean it was it was pretty funny. But you
can us and back. But we're going to take a
break and then we're gonna get We're going to continue
on the conversation we had from last week with Dr Romani. Hi,
(12:16):
Dr Rimani, how are you. I'm good? Thank you? How
are you? I'm fine? Thank you. It's nice to see
you meet both of you. Oh, it's such a pleasure
to have you on. Um. We we talk a lot
about what you're an expert in, and UM, it's just
it's absolute honored to have you on the show because
you are an expert in this field. And I'm just curious,
how how did you become an expert in narcissism? Was
(12:39):
it a relationship you had or and it was a
slow burn? Actually, I was as a professor. I was
an academic and doing research on really difficult patients that
would come into clinics and make the nursing and reception
staff miserable. And at the same time, I also to
private practice, and I was seeing patients coming in and
talking about the same marriage over and over again, and
(13:00):
minute dawned on me. Nobody's teaching these clients about narcissism,
and they're blaming themselves for this other person's abusive behavior.
And I thought, Oh, this is actually if I just
educate them on this, maybe this will set a lot
of them free. And it did. I myself have family
members who are horribly narcissistic. I've been in relationships, I've
been in work settings, but I gotta be honest with you.
It was other people's experiences that pushed me in this area.
(13:22):
And I've been doing this work god since the mid
or like two thousand six. And when I first started
doing nobody was talking about this, and people like, girl,
you're working on something nobody cares. But I care about it,
So I don't. I don't, I don't need I don't
need anyone else to care about it seems to be
helping the people working with and then I and then
over the next ten years more people got more interested
in it. So sort of something I was doing quite
(13:43):
quietly for a very long time. Well, it's interesting too,
because I feel like even just from the stuff that
I share on my social media or what we share
on the podcast, like so many people are like, oh wow,
Like I had no idea that like this is a
part of narcissism or narcissum or oh my gosh, my
husband does it, sir. And then I started to feel
like a little bad because I'm like, well, I don't
(14:04):
want to ruin people's stuff. At the same time, I
want it's nice for I think, for me at least
two to get awareness and for other people to get
awareness of things like and in my relationship, I was
like I felt crazy and I felt, you know, like, well,
why does he hate me so much? And all these things.
But I'm like, okay, wait, that's not actually the reality,
and I don't know. So it's it's nice to get information. Yeah,
(14:27):
I mean I think that a lot of people struggle
with this, like oh, I don't want to use this word.
It feels so clinical, it feels so judgy, and it's
so interesting how much effort we put into protecting abusers.
It's really fascinating, like how can we make this abusive
person look good? I can't get behind that anymore, you know.
And if people don't like the words, come up with
(14:47):
words you feel more comfortable with. But at the end,
of the day, somebody who's doubting your reality and validating you,
leaving you constantly off balance and then having their tantrums
so then they feel better, but you're left holding the bag.
It's not okay. It's just simply not okay. Yeah, I mean,
I know I can say. I mean the amount of
times I'm like, hey, can we take that out because
(15:07):
I don't want Mike to get mad at me if
I say this, or hey can we take But it's like,
why am I so afraid of his reaction? But it's
the that reaction is like, but wait, no, don't hate me,
like I'm not I'm not the one that like you know,
like that I didn't do that, Like you're the one
that ruined the marriage and all these things, but like
why do you hate me? But yet I can't speak
my truth because you want me to shut up and
stop talking about it. And that's the past. So I
(15:30):
think you bring up some such an important point here,
which is so many people in narcissistic relationships feel like
the bad one, that I'm the bad one, that I'm
saying these bad things. So so many people become very
isolated with their truth. Right they might have maybe one
or two really close friends and if they're lucky, a
therapist that gets it. But then to the world, they
(15:51):
feel like, do I need to keep faking it? Do
I need to keep having people thinking that this is okay?
And if I'm the one who's calling this stuff out,
does this make me the bad one? And remember, the
narcissistic person's needs are often being met in the relationship
all the time because the other person's running in circles,
so they're not the bad one, right, So it really
traps a person in an interesting corner. And and I
(16:13):
think that it's funny you you put it that way.
Is that you said, I don't I didn't. I was
afraid of his reaction. I don't want to say things.
I was afraid of his reaction. And for you, Jenna,
it's also about going back and thinking when in your
life were you also afraid of other people's reactions? Like
where does that come from? Because for some folks it's
like you said, I don't want to be the bad one,
(16:34):
But for other folks it's I'm just afraid of anchor
and rage. Like they may have grown up in a
home that was characterized by anchor and rage, so those
kinds of reactions are terrifying for them, So they keep
giving in and giving in and giving in to the
narcissistic person so they don't have to tolerate something that
is so unsettling for them. So yeah, I mean, what
(16:55):
do you do or what would you say for one
that is co parenting with someone that you know? Yeah, like,
how do you how how would you recommend stepping into
those waters? Because I I My whole thing is I
and I know this and I talked it last week,
As I said, I I engage because I'm thinking that
(17:16):
I'm going to get empathy from the past, right and
you're not so right there? So that right there, you
just gave the core of what the key element of
how to co parent is, which is radical acceptance and
realistic expectations. The empathy wasn't there in the marriage. Why
is it all of a sudden going to start showing
up now? And some people believe, well, it's their kids,
(17:37):
so that's going to bring out empathy. Not so much.
I mean, ultimately, the narcissistic person is very self serving
and the children are end up being sort of accessories
in that life, and so and and so it's a.
It's a realistic expectation that none of these patterns are
going to change. And what I often tell people who
are co parenting UM with a narcissist and they're no
longer in the relationship anymore, I tell them, you're doing
(18:01):
the equivalent of single parenting with an elephant on your
back because you still have to negotiate this territory with
the narcissist. The challenge people have with their co parenting
with the narcissist is they can't believe that this person
keeps breaking the rules. And I say, the realistic expectations
they're always going to break the rule. I tell that
folks were single who are co parenting with a narcissist,
(18:24):
you are the sole bringer of routine, of order of empathy.
You've got to be two parents because the other parent
is either a Disneyland parent or they kind of show
up and are on point when they want to be,
but not at other times. So you're the place where
you bring consistency, you bring safety, you bring the things
that a child needs, and where a lot of people
(18:47):
get stuck and they're like, this is so not fair. Mhm, okay,
in life's not fair, you know, So what is fair
is recognizing and we know this, we know this from
the research. All a kidney is one really good parent
that's on point. One really good parent can save a child.
So a lot of people say, my kids are going
to be ruined. I tell every parent who's co parenting
(19:10):
with a narcissist, the biggest risk people have when they
have a narcissistic parents, even if it's only one, is
that their child is going to struggle with anxiety because
it's so unpredictable. You don't know if your parent is
on point, like you just don't know how to please them.
It's a lot of hoop jumping. You might even see
your other your co parents, your other parents struggling. So
I'd say the majority of survivors of childhood narcissistic parents
(19:34):
end up as anxious adults, and we can sort of
step them back from that. The bigger concerns are the
kids who end up going off the rails in different ways, like,
for example, they become narcissistic themselves, or they turned to
other ways to cope. They rebel in a really hard way. Drugs, alcohol,
you know, acting out, sex, rock your drugs, rock and
roll kind of thing. But by and large people become
anxious from this. So I tell folks who are co parenting,
(19:57):
choose your battles Wisely. Some people are say this is
what the parenting agreement says, and they get into that fight.
I say, listen, let's say give you an example. A
lot of narcissistic folks during divorces will fight tooth and
nail for custody the way they want things, the holidays
and what. They all fight, fight, fight, and you break
your heart and your relent on some of it. Then
(20:19):
the time comes when they're actually supposed to take the kids,
maybe six to nine months out, the fight is no
longer there, and they're like, well, I can do this
week aad and I can't do the school thing. And
you know what I tell the healthier co parent, I say,
grab up those dates, like nobody's business. Every day with
your kids is a good day. They just wanted to
show they wanted to beat you down. I'm not convince
say you ever wanted to be with the kids. So
(20:40):
when you can get those kids, don't say but you said,
just document, document that on seven days of a month
they said they were going to be with them, they
went out of town, and they did this because if
you decide to update the parenting agreement and you're using
an app, something like Talking Parents or something like that,
using an app to document all of that, that can
actually then be entered into a court record. So I
(21:02):
tell people, any day you can get your kids, good day,
and I understand it might be inconvenient. Another thing to remember,
if you're co parenting with a narcissist plan on them
dropping the ball. Always have your plan B and your
reinforcements in place so when they can't show up and
they won't do this, you're just seamlessly like, okay, no worries,
got it. And people said, I feel like I'm being
taken advantage of. I tell folks, this would have been
(21:24):
a lot easier if you got a hundred percent custody,
so in a way, you would have been already doing
these workarounds. It's not about fair, it's not about their
getting away with something. It's about your kids. And that's
what I always tell people when it comes to co parenting. Yeah,
and I also feel like too, and that's really good advice.
Where I was having a tough time because you know,
obviously I didn't want to be divorced. I don't want
(21:44):
to be co parenting, but when I do have my
kids now, it's like my main focus is giving them
memories because they're not going to remember that they were
with mom seventy percent of the time and dad thirty.
Like they're gonna remember the memories we make, the times
we spend together, what we do. They're not going to
remember like, oh well, I mean they'll probably know with
my situations like yes, we were at mom's more, but
(22:08):
still like they're not going to know the exact you know,
when when they're kids, and just make the memories and
and focus on that and then yeah, I mean to
your point. He asked me if I you know, I
wanted them over his holiday break, and I was like
one thousand percent absolutely, because I'm just I like, I
want that time with my babies as much as possible.
So yeah, I love that. I do have a question though,
(22:32):
on okay, because there's a lot of characteristics of narcissism,
So how many do you have to have to actually
be a narcissist because I feel like a lot of
times you can look at and go, well, like, I
mean I kind of like do maybe one of those?
So What we want to remember is that when we
think about narcissism, think of it as like sort of
the core elements of it, and those are things like
(22:52):
lack of empathy, entitlement, arrogance, grandiosity, being very sense positive
and reactively sensitive when somebody gives criticism or feedback, being
really egocentric, being really superficial, constantly seeking validation. That's the core. Okay. Now,
some people say, well, I like praise. Does that make
(23:13):
me narcissistic? No, that makes your human being right. Or
person might say, I don't know, I love clothes, I
love fashion. Is that superficial? No? Not if you're empathic
alongside that. You see what I'm saying. So I think
people kind of get lost in sort of the armchair
kind of theatrical version of narcissism and they forget that
it's really a constant, pervasive presence. This is not somebody
(23:36):
who is usually a nice person and then on a
day when they're tired or lots going wrong, they snap
a little bit and then they quickly apologize like I
had no right to do that. This is not one
bad day. This is about years, lifetimes of bad days
interspersed with good ones. That's how they trick us, right.
They're charming, they're charismatic, they're confident, they're curious about us.
(23:57):
They seem super fun until they don't, and then the
bad days get mixed in with the good days. But
the problem is the bad days are brutal. They're abusive,
and they're invalidating, and their manipulative and their gas lighting.
They're terrible bad days. It's not just somebody who's just
I don't know, leaving towels on the floor. So I
don't you know one thing I tell people, there's no
(24:18):
such thing because healthy narcissism. Narcissism by definition, is an
unhealthy pattern. I think that it's on a continuum. There's
milder levels of narcissism, where some people are more almost
emotionally stunted, really immature, really vapid, really ridiculous, really validation seeking,
their empathyist botty, like if they're having a good day,
(24:39):
they think everyone's having a good day, so stunted, they're
they're like forever adolescent. That's that's at the milder level.
But as we keep going into the more severe levels,
it's really really bad for us. But even those milder levels.
I don't see how a person could make a relationship
of any depth go with a person like that for
any long period of time. As soon as it going
gets tough. Those people have no interest in real life.
(25:02):
They just want to again forever be childish and immature,
and so they're not really They're not great for marriage
and children and growing old together. They're not made for that.
So on the other side of that, I just think,
you know, it's such a thing now, Like you said,
people weren't really talking about it much ten years ago.
Now we're all starting to talk about it. So if
(25:23):
people are recognizing this and themselves and they are owning
that and they're gonna, you know, want to try and
get better, do you just recommend therapy for them, or like,
how do you get out of this narcissistic behavior. So
it's a good question. In the majority, and in the
vast majority of cases, this doesn't change there really doesn't.
(25:46):
It is the ones who change are the unicorns. I
think I've seen significant change in a narcissist twice in
my career, and I've been doing this for twenty five years. Okay,
in my own life, like personal life, not people I
treat I've seen significant change twice. I mean, and I'm
(26:08):
fifty six, right, so I mean I'm telling you like,
these are these are not short periods of time that
you know, so it doesn't happen. And I'll tell you what,
it's very very hard to find a therapist I can
work with a narcissistic client. These are the you know,
these are the jedis of therapy. Like, it's very very
I've worked with many narcissistic clients, some of them ten
(26:29):
years or longer. I think I'm a good therapists an
amazing work with many clients. With the narcissistic clients, I'm
not kidding you. I think we've moved the needle like
a millimeter and we've done good work. And it's just
the problem is this, when a narcissistic person faces frustration, stress, disappointment,
anything that sort of pops their little bubble boom game on,
(26:50):
they lose it and so and they take it out
on the people around them until they can manage that.
They get out of their heads that everything always has
to be perfect for them all the time, they're going
to keep having these meltdowns. So yes, I think therapy
is absolutely critical and I would say for somebody who says,
I don't like this pattern in me, I am aware
I'm blowing people's lives up. I am aware that I'm
(27:10):
acting like a jerk. I am aware that I'm not
a nice person. Great, Okay, I think it takes a
lot of courage to do that. Yes, therapy, but above
and beyond therapy. Every day, every hour, every fifty every
minute of every day, that narcissistic person has to be
self aware of how their words, their actions, they're everything
(27:34):
affects other people, and think before they speak, find ways
to cope with their disappointment, recognize other people have needs.
I have to tell you I've worked with some narcissistic clients,
and I remember a couple in particular who said they
really did. They gave it the old college try. They said,
I can't be bothered. This is exhausting. And you know
what they said, I'm gonna break up my marriage. I
mean an end of my marriage. And then this person,
(27:55):
one person particularly, had a woman on the side. He's like,
I'm ending my marriage, I'm ending my relationship with this woman,
I'm having an affair with. I'm moving out, I'm moving
into an apartment I have lots of friends that I
don't you know, and they're fine with me being an
ass and so and then that's it. And then this
person recognized I don't have what it takes and I
don't want to hurt people. This person acknowledge I don't
(28:16):
want to hurt people, but I can't be in a
relationship because I I don't have patience. I don't care
about another person's feelings other than at that's the most
superficial level. And then he found someone he's like, but
I like sex. He found somebody paid once a month
or maybe twice a month, come over, hang out, leave
it to in the morning, and he's like, that's really
all I really wanted. And it was an incredible revelation
because this was somebody saying, this is too much work.
(28:37):
It's almost like trying to lose weight. We know what
we need to do, change what we eat, exercise. Most
people like, oh, heck, now, I gotta eat me my
cheese cake. I got I'm not giving up this other stuff.
And it's a very similar model for people who are narcissistic.
A lot of them don't, you know, even if they
want to do the work. It is a life, life,
daily daily commitment to that. I think manymarcissistic people they'll
(28:58):
have no insights. But the who do have insight if
you did the work every day and paid attention and
recognize it's not okay to rage with other people when
you don't get your way, and you have to have
empathy and yes, you have to wait in line like
the rest of us. I mean, like I said, I've
seen it happen maybe four times in my life, and
they worked hard, They worked hard. What if the narcissists
says they only act this way towards you because you're
(29:22):
like because they hate you so much, like they only
they only act this anger like I'm not like that.
I'm not that person anymore. I only do this because
because of you and you bring this out in me.
It's not true. I mean, it's it's completely not true.
This is a pervasive pattern. What we see with a
lot of narcissistic folks, though, is they can really be
brutal in their most high stakes relationship like an intimate
(29:43):
relationship or family relationship or something like that, but all
of their other relationships are so superficial and are giving
them narcissistic supply. You're such a great guy, you're so cool.
There's a lot of that, you know, but there's no
depth there. Like, these people are almost either as superficial
as the narcissist, or they're a na blurs, or they're
benefiting in some way financially or something. There's some benefit
(30:03):
to them for staying in the friendship. So all of
their other relationships are so superficial or with enablers. So
it is quite conceivable that just a very small group
of people are getting the worst of it because other
people aren't going deep with them. But this idea that
you're the only person I treat this way, they treat
everybody badly there. I imagine this is a person who
(30:24):
would treat store clerks badly or a person on an
airplane bad Like they're just rude when things don't go
the way they want. It's just that that high impact person,
the intimate partner, usually gets the worst of it. Yeah,
so when you know, obviously you've got um amazing books out,
so the one that should you stay or should you go?
I mean, what what is your number one thing that
(30:46):
you tell couples or people in relationships when dealing with this,
Like when because a lot of times you're like, when
is enough enough? And I'm like, for me, it was
like you know that I had my final stobs, you know,
six seven years later, but I mean it took a
it took a while. Um, but I think it's it's
hard because they make you feel so crazy that even
to this day, even co parenting, I'm like, am I
to you know? He's like, calling yourself an EmPATH is
(31:08):
comical and I'm like, but I do have empathy, and
I I I'm like, you call your calling me a narcissist,
like you're the narcissist. It's like this back and forth,
Like I'm like, how like it's like and I'm like, well,
I don't know, maybe I am like I like I
then I started to question it, and I'm like, am
I crazy? Well that what you just described is gaslighting? Right?
(31:28):
So everybody, everybody, and in indition to the word narcissism,
everybody's using the word gaslighting and most people are using
it wrong. Gaslighting is not a one off, it's a process, right,
and a gas lighter you kind of have to have
some trust or some skin in the game with them, right,
you want in essence, you you believe in that person
for some reason, you love them or they're your boss
(31:49):
or your family member, like you want to believe them.
So over time, what the gaslighter does is they doubt
your reality. I never said that, that never had and
you're being too sensitive. You have no right to feel
that way. And you're like, okay, so now your reality died,
Like don't I have a right to feel that way?
Or did that really happen? Well, we're divorced. My feelings
(32:10):
don't matter like an issue anymore. Yeah, feelings don't matter. Okay,
so you're reality is being doubted. But then they double
down at that point and then they say, wow, you're
so sensitive, like have you been seen by a psychiatrist
because there's something really wrong with you? Or you're not
remembering stuff like I'm wondering are you drinking? Like there's
something wrong with you. Like they'll literally try to paint
(32:33):
a picture of that person whose reality they've always already
doubted as being crazy or as being something's wrong with them, medically, psychiatrically,
you name it. So now this person might actually start
buying the height. Maybe I'm the narcissist, Maybe I'm the
one who's being unreasonable. Maybe I am too sensitive. I
do need to get therapy, and now this person it's
(32:53):
almost like how you bring someone into a cult. You
make them so reliant on you for reality that they're stuck.
And so that process of gas lighting is why people
get stuck in these relationships for so long, because the
narcissist in some ways is the holder of the reality.
If somebody gets into therapy with someone good, that good
therapist is a girl, you're being gaslight and then a
(33:13):
prison was that and then you walk them through it
and you have them keep journals and bring it. I
I've had so many clients have recorded conversations and play
it in session, and I'm like gaslight, minimization, abuse and validate,
like we just break it down and there thank They say,
thank you so much. Now I can make some choices.
Keep in mind the whole the concept behind should I
(33:34):
say or should I go? When I wrote that book
was it's very simplistic to tell everyone going through narcissist
narcissistic abuse leave. Obviously that's the best path because the
less time you spend with the narcissist the better. It's
like something toxic. If you're not near the toxic thing
like secondhand smoke. You won't feel sick right the closer
you are to it, the secret it makes you. But
that's not an option open to everybody. Because of custody,
(33:57):
because of money, because of culture, legion, whatever a person's
reasons are. I have no right to sit there and
say you've gotta go. I do understand a lot of
people feel stuck or they still aren't ready to go,
So I give them both. I tell them this is
what these two pathsways, and these two options look like
what you say, six or seven years before I figured
out what was going on and wanted to get out.
(34:19):
That's not odd. I'm I'm to tell you now, I
think I've worked with folks who have been in narcissistic
marriages for sixty years, so it it literally can take
and they leave when they're eighty. Believe it or not,
too like it's not. I mean, there's a point at
which more and where people get the knowledge and recognize
this is never going to change, because that's the baseline.
It's really not going to change. And even if there's
a little bit of change, the person hurt by the
(34:41):
narcissists has been hurt in such a permanent way. They
might say, good for you, you want to go, change, go,
but you've done You've damaged me too much. I can't
do this anymore. And so the idea, though, is what
the narcissistic person tries to do. It's all about dominance,
it's all about power and control, and it's all about
harming the other person in a way that it makes
(35:01):
it harder to leave, and even when the relationship is done,
to sort of keep them down. And that's and so
it's I really tell people, fifty percent of people stay in,
fifty percent of people go, and there's no shame in
either of those. And a lot of people go and
then they come back. And that's also normal too, because
there's so much hope that people have. It's going to change,
(35:22):
it's gonna change. I'm telling you here to tell you
it's not going to change. So you know that's the
fact is if you go, it's not going to change.
I can give you that guarantee. If you go back,
I can also promise you it's not going to get better.
So starting a new relationship, then what are some of
the signs that you know? I mean, obviously, right now,
everything is amazing with me, new me, new man. But like,
what is something I mean? I kind of with with
(35:44):
my history. I'm very sensitive to things, But is there
anything that I should be aware of or a sign
or um anything that you say to people that start
new relationships. I always tell people when they start new
relationships after having been through a toxic one, you've got
to understand what a healthy relationship is. I'm always struck
by how many people don't even know what the definition
of a healthy relationship is. And it's kindness, compassion, respect,
(36:09):
what we call mutuality of regard. Like you both, there's
a back and a fourth and awareness of what's important
to the other person. There's something we call reciprocity. There's given, take,
there's compromise, and there is a growth orientation that both
each person in the relationship wants the other person to grow.
In other words, in a narcissistic relationship, the person doesn't
(36:29):
want the other person to grow, doesn't want them to
succeed because it will make them look bad or they
are In all narcissistic people have abandonment fears. They always
think the other person is going to go because they're
so insecure. That's the true core of narcissism, insecurity, and
feelings of inadequacy. Right, So it's kind of sad when
you think about it, but I don't care how sad
it is. Abuse is abuse. So in a new relationship,
(36:50):
I tell people, you've got to look for those fundamentals,
and if those fundamentals aren't there, you've got to get
out of dodge. But then it's almost the behavioral stuff.
It's things like how does a person receive feedback? If
a person gets really touchy and defensive and ikey when
you give them feedback, it's a really really bad sign
because you may not like what someone's saying. They might
(37:11):
give you feedback that's uncomfortable in a new relationship. But
if that person says, oh, this is so hard for
me to hear, but I need to hear it or
can hear, or say give me a minute, instead of
raging or saying yeah, you say that about me, Well,
let me tell you this about you. That's the kind
of thing we're looking for. I'd say that shows up
pretty early. In a more toxic relationship. We look at
(37:32):
how a person treats other people. How do they treat
people who do have less power around them? That might
be people who work in service occupations, who might work
in a household. How are those people treated, how are
they talked about if that there's any dismissive kinds of
conversation there. I would tell people to get out how
much validation and admiration do they need? Do they does
(37:53):
it feel like they always have to have every you know,
it's almost of the flip side of that, like when
they go in everywhere, they need to be every you know,
Bartender's best friend and everyone has to like um, and
it's all about how they look to the world, you know.
But that approval those different than admiration, Jenna. You know,
approval is that's something for you to work on in
(38:15):
your own therapeutic because in some ways that's a that's
sort of a monkey on our back. But that's very different.
That's almost like an inner child piece of your week
that wants to be approved. But admiration is like, look
how great I am, you know, And it's very different.
So as to something something else you'd want to look for,
I'd also look at how whether someone can be present.
Are they always looking at their phone or their watch
(38:37):
or out the window. It always seems like they're looking
at the door to see if someone better is going
to sort of metaphorically walk in. Are they able to
be present even in moments you might consider boring or tedious.
That's another thing to pay attention to. Those are the
signs I tell people, And if something doesn't feel good
the other I also tell people what's the pace of
the relationship. Narcissistic people like fast relationship because what it
(39:00):
means is that red flags get ignored the faster they
move and the quicker they kind of get it sealed
the deal. Now a person is in something pretty deep
and they're like, this isn't so good, but now I've
agreed to I don't know, live with someone or marry someone,
or I'm pregnant or whatever. Those things can actually get
people stuck in. Narcissistic people, as a rule, tend to
want to go fast because it's just sort of like
(39:21):
I said, for them, it sort of gets around the
insecurity for them because they feel that the other person
is less likely to leave. Got it, well, DRMANI thank
you so much for coming on and I think hopefully,
I mean I know it helped me a lot, and
hopefully everyone that's listening, Um, it helped as well, and
then UM, we're gonna, um put your books up here
(39:42):
on the site. Um, don't you know who I am?
And should I stay or should I go on Amazon
get them? I'm ordering them right now. UM. So thank
you so much for coming on and hopefully I'll talk
to you soon, but hopefully not, you know, like I
kind of want to stop talking about this now, so
but I appreciate you. Thank you so much. I keep
(40:02):
for this time and I thank you, and I hope
your listeners benefit as you did as well. And then
let people know that after narcissistic abuse, I've seen actually
incredible love stories and life stories. So there is life
after this. I love that. Thank you, Thank you. It's
so funny that one of this I'm like, oh wait,
I'm like, well, I mean I like to move fast
sometimes it was like, but I mean it's different this
(40:26):
time around. Yeah, And I think that that's just you
can have insecurities but not be Yeah, snarcissistic. It's very
interesting some of that. I mean, so it's good. She's
she's very good. You can tell she's like a yeah, profess.
I found it very interesting though, Like, um, I don't
you know, I can't really think of necessarily narcissistic people
in my life. But it seems so like kind of
(40:48):
hopeless if you see that in yourself, you know what
I mean? Yeah, but I guess like so many more
people wouldn't see them. They just wouldn't see it. Yeah,
Like my X will never say he's on that just
like kind of made me sad because it's like, well,
what's the hope for people to see this in themselves?
And it's kind of like they just don't change, right that.
(41:08):
And that's why I'm this side. I'm like, oh, I'm crazy.
Maybe he's not and I'm But then on the other
side is yeah, hopefully you see that rightful, Yes, that
she's seen two people right change right in all her years? Yeah,
I know that's that was that was eye opening for sure. Hi, Mark,
(41:36):
so Eastern caught me up on what you guys are talking. Yeah,
a lot of um that seems to be the theme
of the beginning and end of the show. Was a
lot of that from and just like that, Oh my god,
So I did you watch? I watched and just like that,
but I must have missed that the two different full
frontal veil. Yeah, I just missed it. I don't know
(41:58):
how because I watched it, but I must have been
talking about it because I don't know how I missed
it because I don't know that. We're both pretty quick.
But okay, it was like, well, question for Katherine, if
there's two, and then just like that, I would like
to know where rank the three that you've seen in
the past twenty four hours. I looked away so fast
(42:20):
when I figured out what I was looking at, And
can we please just again talk about the angle? The
angle matters in this situation. Yes, and we didn't get confirmation.
I cannot tell you between Harry, which surely that was fake,
and the guy at the door, whoever that guy was,
(42:44):
you missed them both, missed them both. I don't know.
I mean, I was very happy with a photo, but
you know, it was really just meant for me, not
my best friends, so for me, and maybe that was
what strikes me, is that why dating has changed a
lot in the past twenty five years since I've been
out of the game, Because that's seems like standard operating procedure,
Like it's no longer for weirdos anymore. It's like standard,
(43:06):
it's like normal standard. It's totally yeah, I mean, that
was the only one he's ever sent me, because it
was like, it wasn't weird. It wasn't. It was like
it was because I was about to do like the
wine down thing with the girls and like, so he
was like, we were a joke. Yeah, we were being
like I thought it was like kind of a joke. Yeah.
And then because I had said that I have never
(43:26):
like sent a thing, I thought I was like and
the kind of requested but kind of a punchline to
the conversation. Yes, I don't want it to seem as
like he wasn't. He wasn't just like here's my day.
I'm assuming I don't know. I looked away, so I
definitely thought it was unsolicited. Ten o'clock in the morning, No,
(43:50):
it wasn't ten. It was it was before the girls went.
I thought it was at like eight o'clock. Yeah, I
don't know. Good night in the evening and the even Yeah,
And it was like we were like joking and like
being like because a lot of wine. And then I
saw that, and then I was like, we all had
a lot to drink. Ian included I see, did you
send him something back? No? I did not, Okay, all right, good. Okay,
(44:14):
this is better. This seemed a lot seamier when I
was first described. No, I think I'm okay with it. Really,
that should only be done for the purposes of a
listening laughter in my opinion, Yes, from the male side anyway. Yeah,
that's I was telling Jane earlier, like I don't think
anyone really wants that. I don't think so really. I
(44:39):
know it's like things can get hot and heavy, but
like I think the amount of women and men that
are like, oh my god, I really want to see
a picture of a venus right now. Like I just
feel like that fashion has to be so small, so small.
It's fine. On the other side, like men want to
see topless picks all the time, all the time, kind
of the morning, any time. Discriminate. Why are we dick
(45:04):
shaming my boyfriend In all fairness, I mean we're just
wired differently, that's all we're saying. Okay, so it's okay
for guys to get boob photos, but it's not okay
for girls to get dick pecks. Let's say one's okay,
one's not okay. Whatever you want to do in your relationship.
We're just saying that's that's kind of funny that it's
(45:26):
never really enjoyed from the female perspective, and it's yeah, OK,
that's fair. Yeah Steinfeld that said, a women's body is
a work of art and a man's body is a jeep.
It's meant for utility, moving things around, to getting things done,
and a women's body is to be admired. And I mean,
I will say though, I love getting like like you know,
(45:50):
picks or like aw some like a like it was like, okay,
cute and then like he send a cute We've done
that like twice, like a gym photo. Like his body
is sexy, like yeah, your body, Yeah, yeah, I like it.
But I mean that's happening like women go to a
strip club. They're screaming, they're laughing, they're yelling, they're having
a blast man at club and just stare. That stare
(46:13):
is not good. Yeah, I don't think. I don't like that,
would you like Nikoto shop club? Don't bother me? That
bothers me. I mean I don't. I don't think he
has since we've been well, he he went like with
his brother before he got married or something, maybe a
long time ago. You guys go, I've been to one
(46:35):
in my entire life. It was Phoenix, Arizona and I.
We sat near the door and I talked to the
bounce of the whole time because I was so fascinated
by this little world, this little microcosm of all these people,
these women who do they really want to be here?
Do they eat this? Are they miserable? And you have
to walk them to their car at night? Now it's
really fascinated by that. I really got a lot of
(46:56):
information out of this guy, and I've never been back.
Would your wife be mad? Yeah? I think so, Yeah,
I mean never relationships different. I think most women would, yes,
but some are fine with it. Katherine, you're fine with it.
I mean if he was doing it like every day
or every other week or often. I mean again, I
think he's gone once since we've been married and fourteen years.
So if it was, like if I felt like it
(47:17):
was a problem and it was something that he was doing,
then yes, I would definitely have a problem with it.
But like going with a bunch of guys for a
bachelor party, that doesn't matter. It all made me uncomfortable.
Like one woman walked by in a schoolgirl skirt and braces,
and I thought oh man, appealing to the lowest combat
the nominating here and I'm here and I'm a customer
(47:37):
like that, I don't belong here. That's a problem. I
don't like that. I went when I was sixteen. They
didn't card me. It was the best thing that ever happened.
And uh, I went with my friends for birthday and uh,
this woman came up to me and she's like, do
you want to dance? And I thought she meant like
dance like a dance star like I since I thought that,
(48:00):
and she brought me to a private room and I
was like, oh man, how much is this gonna cost me?
And she she broke down the prices and it was
sixty for full dude, forty for topless, and twenty for
like in her bikini. And so I went to the
a g M and it pulled out my last twenty dollars.
There was an eight dollar service charge on that a
g M. Her name was Illusion, and we went into
(48:25):
this She was very nice. She's very very attractive, larger
black woman. And we go into this side room and
it was like, um, there was like a bench alongside
a wall. There was an older man and they're giving
someone a back massage and then she starts dancing on
me and the song Faint by Lincoln Park was playing,
and uh, I didn't know what to say, and so
I just said I really liked the song and she's like,
I do too, baby, and then she she put my
(48:47):
hands on her. Oh my god, because I'm like sitting
on my hands thing like, Okay, in the movies they
say you can't touch him. She put my hands on her,
and it was it was wild and so insane. I
had to figure out how I was gonna get, say,
spend all my money there. Oh my god. I wonder
where Illusion is now? The Crazy Horse in San Francisco
(49:09):
circa two and four or whatever it was. Wow, this
episode is just below the belt. Wow. Well on that note.
On that note, I'm just imagining Eastern getting a lap
dance right now and Mark talking to all the girls saying,
why are you here? Can I be your sugar daddy? Okay, guys, um,
(49:40):
we're going to clean it up next week. We're gonna
get a pastor on Okay, Okay, y'all have a good week.
See next week
Host
Jana Kramer
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