Never Give Up with Elizabeth Smart

You’ve heard the terrifying true crime story of the abduction of Elizabeth Smart, but now Jana is ready to learn more, and find out what happened after, with Elizabeth herself.

Elizabeth takes us through her nine months in captivity and reveals how she handles the lasting trauma that still haunts her today.

Plus, Elizabeth has a powerful message to share for any survivors of abuse.
 

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heart Radio Podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:06):
All right, well, we have a very special guest in studio.
I love saying that in studio with us. Elizabeth Smart,
Thank you so much for coming on wind Down.

Speaker 3 (00:16):
Thanks for having me.

Speaker 2 (00:17):
We are so this is It's hard because I don't
want to say that. I'm so excited to talk to
you because obviously your story is is a tough one
and it's I can't imagine how hard it is for you.
But thank you for doing what you do because it's
helping so many people. So for that, I'm excited for
that conversation.

Speaker 3 (00:39):
Thank you.

Speaker 2 (00:41):
As you were walking in, we were chatting and kind
of getting to know each other and I found out
that you also have a Scottish husband.

Speaker 4 (00:48):
So do I do?

Speaker 5 (00:50):
Yeah? Aberdeen from Alveldeen. Yeah, it spent a year an
aveultin coat you.

Speaker 2 (00:57):
He used to be the assistant coach in Aberdeen.

Speaker 4 (01:00):
Oh.

Speaker 1 (01:00):
When I told my husband that I was coming to
speak with Jana, he looked her up and then he's like, oh,
she's married to a footballer.

Speaker 3 (01:07):
Oh he was a coach.

Speaker 1 (01:10):
Oh he he's an Aberdeen And I was like and
he's like, oh he spells his middle or he spells
his name the same.

Speaker 3 (01:16):
Way I spell my middle name.

Speaker 4 (01:18):
Yeah, you kind of sound Scottish as you're talking.

Speaker 5 (01:21):
Well, yes, Scottish is good. Jana's is Russian.

Speaker 4 (01:26):
Mine just turns Jamaican and it's a bitch. I don't
know what happens to me. Wait, do you have a
Scottish Can you impersonate your husband?

Speaker 1 (01:33):
I feel like I do, Okay, but if you were here,
he'd be like, stop embarrassing yourself, Like that's so bad.

Speaker 3 (01:39):
Just stop.

Speaker 2 (01:39):
What is like a phrase he usually says, and try
it in Scottish.

Speaker 1 (01:45):
Don't like, Yeah, that's great, that's so good, that's great.

Speaker 4 (01:51):
How long have you been married?

Speaker 3 (01:53):
Thirteen years?

Speaker 2 (01:54):
Okay, I think there's hope for you, Kraamer. I just
like he said, I sound Russian. The only thing I
can say, which he says all the time, is.

Speaker 3 (02:02):
She thinks she can say it still.

Speaker 4 (02:08):
I want to be supportive, but I got to tell you,
I'm not sure what that was.

Speaker 3 (02:12):
I and I love you. You do a lot of things
really well.

Speaker 2 (02:16):
I know, I just can't, I know, really can't.

Speaker 5 (02:18):
Well that's an Aberdeen fun Yeah?

Speaker 3 (02:21):
Is I mean Manchester United? More?

Speaker 1 (02:24):
But when Aberdeen plays. He always has his Aberdeen kid. Yeah,
I mean I did not grow up playing soccer.

Speaker 3 (02:33):
I don't football. You mean, well, yes, I don't play it.
I didn't watch it.

Speaker 1 (02:40):
But now now he's like, Elizabeth, do you understand what
off sides is known?

Speaker 3 (02:44):
Like R offside is?

Speaker 4 (02:45):
I was like no, same still No, I'm a year
into our marriage and were I still have no idea.
I didn't know anything about soccer when I met him,
like nothing football.

Speaker 2 (02:55):
Sorry, let's talk about the pace of your husband's.

Speaker 5 (02:59):
A life pace they have a problem with my laid back?

Speaker 2 (03:04):
Is that also your husband?

Speaker 3 (03:07):
He just doesn't answer until he's ready.

Speaker 1 (03:10):
Like I can speak to him all day and he'll
just like sit there. I don't even know if he's
listening until he's ready to answer. So it might be
I feel thirty seconds later, might be like ten minutes
and I'm like, have you been listening?

Speaker 4 (03:22):
He's like, what, Dana, how do you feel about that sentence?

Speaker 2 (03:28):
I just feel seen as well?

Speaker 4 (03:30):
Good?

Speaker 2 (03:31):
No, But I will say though, and I don't know
if you've was he your first serious relationship?

Speaker 3 (03:36):
Your husband? I mean I dated a lot, sure, but sure?

Speaker 2 (03:41):
Yeah? And you guys have two kids, three kids, three kids,
what are the ages?

Speaker 4 (03:48):
Nine?

Speaker 3 (03:48):
Seven and my youngest just turned six.

Speaker 2 (03:52):
I feel like they're amazing men. That's one thing I've
dated as well of plenty of times, and he was.

Speaker 4 (04:01):
There's such just something about am I on one today, Kristin.
Really I just couldn't love you Moore. I think I
also just miss you. So every word you're saying, I'm
like hanging on because I just feel like I haven't
seen you, but you really are gragging me up. There
is something about Scottish men though. They just do it
better in a lot of ways.

Speaker 3 (04:19):
Wow, I'm just saying.

Speaker 4 (04:20):
It everything and love and romance and one thing I
can say, and maybe this is just observing, because we
went over for the wedding and we got to.

Speaker 2 (04:28):
Be like we were all just in Scotland in July.
We got married there, well, congratulations, thank you so much.

Speaker 4 (04:35):
It was really fun to be like submerged, you know,
and we all stayed in a state together, like a
little castle together. So it was like a little bit
like Real World meets Real Housewives of Scotland. I don't know,
but we had a really really good time. One thing
I observed about Scottish men is the certainty that they

(04:55):
have and I don't know if they firmly believe what
they're saying, but it feels like it. So with every
decision made, I feel like, like, even when Alan gets
in the room, I feel like I fix my posture,
like I'm like, okay, we're like he's They're just very
like assertive but also so certain. Does that feel fair?
I think it's fair to say they don't do anything halfway?

Speaker 2 (05:15):
Yees.

Speaker 1 (05:16):
And then for me, not that I think I do
things halfway, but now being married to someone, I feel
like he holds me to like an even higher expectation
and be like, well, did you ask this? Did you
ask that Elizabeth? Did you get any of the details whatsoever?
And I'm like, I thought I did, but apparently not.

Speaker 4 (05:34):
Is there a little inflexibility? This question goes to just
the ladies, they're very Yeah, feels that way, strong suggestions. Wow,
that was delicately right, But we'll go away from that, bab.
I don't want you to feel Scottish Spousal Support Group.

Speaker 2 (05:54):
Yes, yeah, so I'm going to read a piece of
this and then The abduction of Elizabeth Smart was one
of the most followed child abduction cases of our time.
Elizabeth was abducted on June fifth, two thousand and two.
Her captors controlled her by threatening to kill her and
her family if she tried to escape. For those that
do not know your story, I know it very very clear,

(06:17):
very I mean I just remember following it on the news.
I mean it was everywhere.

Speaker 4 (06:23):
But for those that are listening that don't know your story,
could you tell us from your words?

Speaker 3 (06:32):
Sure? Yeah.

Speaker 1 (06:34):
So born and raised in Utah, Salt Lake City, and
like genuinely never thought anything interesting, out of ordinary crazy
could happen to us. I mean I did not hear
people's talk about crime. I didn't hear people talk about abuse.
I didn't hear people talk about bad things that happened

(06:55):
in our neighborhood where I grew up. I mean, the
worst thing that I remember hearing people talk about girl
up was I mean, if someone elderly was sick and died,
that kind of felt like that was like the worst thing.
So it felt like a very safe neighborhood. It felt
like a very nice neighborhood. It just didn't feel like

(07:15):
anything could happen, And I mean, why why would it?
As far as I could tell my family didn't have
enemies or I don't know. I don't think there was
anyone that like actively hated us that I knew of anyway.
So it was just something that I never even contemplated happening. Plus, like,
I'm just not I'm just not like a rebellious person.

Speaker 3 (07:39):
I'm not like a I'm pretty, I'm pretty mild. Like
I'm kind of a boying person truthfully.

Speaker 1 (07:48):
And so I just when people would talk about oh,
stranger danger or you know, don't take don't take candy
from people you don't know, or don't walk by yourself
at night, don't like, don't do this, don't do that,
those cautions never bothered me because I would have never

(08:09):
done those things anyway. And I just never thought I
would be in that position myself. So it was right
before I was about to graduate from junior High. Very
excited to graduate from junior High.

Speaker 3 (08:22):
I was quite an awkward person growing up, and.

Speaker 1 (08:28):
I just was looking forward to high school. And I
remember going to bed that night and I shared I
didn't just.

Speaker 3 (08:33):
Share a fourteen yes, yeah, I was fourteen. I didn't
just share a room.

Speaker 1 (08:37):
I shared a bed with my younger sister, who was
about five years younger than I am, and I mean
it was a good night, it was a good day,
like nothing bad had happened. And the next thing I
remember was hearing a man's voice in my bedroom, which
I didn't immediately respond to, because how could that, How
could that be real? I mean, my room was on

(08:58):
the top floor of our house, wasn't like on the
ground level. Why would a man be in my room
and weren't allowed in my room like that just couldn't happen.
So I didn't immediately respond because I thought it just
it had to be a dream or a nightmare or
I don't know something. So I just laid there and
then I heard the voice again, saying the same words again,

(09:18):
saying I have a knife at your neck. Don't make
a sound, get up and come with me. And it
was that second time that he said that that I
actually felt a knife lying across my neck and I
could feel his hand on my arm try and pull
me out of bed, And I remember opening my eyes
and sure enough there was this man, this strange man,

(09:39):
standing in my room timeing to go with him, And like,
of everything that you prepared for in life, nobody talks about,
what do you do if someone breaks into your home
and kidnaps you out of bed. I mean, all the
safety education you're given is like if you're out by yourself,
if you're out at night, if you like, nobody talks

(09:59):
about what do you do if someone breaks into your
home or crawls into your bed, Like what do you
do if your own space is violated? And since I
didn't have the education, I didn't feel like there's anything
I could do, so I did as I was told.
I mean, I never had anyone hold a knife to
my neck before, Like what was I supposed to do?

(10:20):
I remember he led me out through my house. He
led me up into the mountains behind my home, which
really like it's very difficult to get there. I mean
I have since hiked back there a number of times.
And one of the most memorable times that I hiked
back was after I released my book, My Story About
I guess it's probably been about I don't know, ten

(10:44):
tenish years ago maybe, and I did this big sit
down interview with Meredith Vieira, and she wanted to hike.

Speaker 3 (10:53):
Back to where I was held captive.

Speaker 1 (10:54):
And I was like, yeah, that's fine, and the camera
crew was like Okay, yeah, like, how far do you
think is I was like, oh, it's probably like three
and a half miles, like not super far. I was like,
but just so you know, like it's a pretty difficult hike.
And they're like, oh, well, you know, I.

Speaker 3 (11:09):
Just ran a marathon like a couple of weeks ago.

Speaker 1 (11:11):
I think I can handle like three and a half
miles or you know, like less than four miles. I
think I can handle that. I'm like, okay, Like, but
I've warned you anyway. We start hiking up to get there,
and I mean you're like, sure, you start on a
nice trail, but then you turn off to a place
where there is no trail and you're fighting through brush
and then there's a stream that you're fighting up through

(11:32):
and there's like poison ivy and there's always felt like
there was so many like wasps and I don't know,
bugs that can sting, right, And then you have to
go what felt like almost straight up the mountainside and
it's a very steep climb, and I mean it was
just loose kind of dirt, loose gravel, so it was

(11:53):
not it was not solid footing at all.

Speaker 3 (11:56):
And I remember at one point.

Speaker 1 (11:57):
The cameraman just sat down and said I'm done, can't
go any farther. And I was like, I told you,
I told you not not that I enjoy other people's pain,
I don't, but there was a moment that I felt
a little bit vindicated.

Speaker 4 (12:14):
Yet twenty six point two. Yeah, marathon runner, Yeah that's right, Baron,
thank you.

Speaker 1 (12:22):
Anyway, So it was very difficult to get back to
and you would never have just stumbled across it, would
never have just found it.

Speaker 3 (12:29):
I mean it was it was hard.

Speaker 1 (12:31):
Anyway, he took me back there, where as soon as
he got me back there, he he claimed that I
was now his wife, and I was raped and then
I was chained up. And for the next nine months,
I mean he and he had he had his actual

(12:53):
wife there waiting for him, and she helped him. So
she knew that you were she knew. Yeah, yeah, she knew.
She was like complicit in everything. And yeah, the next
nine months, I mean, they had found that the best
way to manipulate and control people was through religion. And

(13:14):
I think if you step back and you look at
that time period even more. I mean I was kidnapped
in June of two thousand and two, but that prior
September of two thousand and one was when nine to
eleven happened, when the Twin Towers came down. And yes,
I was a teenager, but so maybe I didn't see
the full perspective of everything. But even in my teenage

(13:37):
like vision of the world, it seemed like everyone was
just like extra sensitive about any form of extremism. I mean,
I remember talk of a mosque in Salt Lake City,
or and it was whether it should be torn down
or just there was some I can't remember all the details,
but I just remember it was like controversial and just

(13:59):
everyone kind of felt scared, and any form of extremism,
especially around religion, was scary to people. And I think
that my captors recognized that, and I think they used
that as a tool to get away with everything that
they wanted. And it had been so effective in getting
people to stay away from them, or giving them what

(14:20):
they wanted, or just manipulating the people around them, that
they just continued on with that.

Speaker 3 (14:28):
I mean, that's how he justified kidnapping me.

Speaker 1 (14:31):
That's how he justified all of the abuse, the rape,
the sexual violence that happened to me during my captivity.
I mean, that's how they justified everything. That's how they
justified trying to kidnap more young girls. I mean, thank goodness,
they were never successful, but they did try. During my captivity,
they took me out of Utah to southern California, San Diego,

(14:54):
right outside of San Diego, yeah, Lakeside, and we were
for about four and a half months.

Speaker 4 (15:16):
How did you they travel you? Just by car by.

Speaker 3 (15:20):
So greyhound bus took us there.

Speaker 4 (15:24):
And were they like holding onto you tight?

Speaker 2 (15:26):
What was they like?

Speaker 4 (15:27):
Would they say like if you scream or you run,
I will yes, yeah.

Speaker 1 (15:30):
I mean for all of the time leading up to
my leading up to going to California, my captors they
I mean, they threatened me constantly. It was always like,
if you don't do what we tell you to, will
kill you. If we don't kill you, we'll kill your family.

Speaker 3 (15:49):
They would.

Speaker 1 (15:52):
When when Brian Mitchell would go down into Salt Lake,
he would bring back newspaper articles or missing flyers about
the surch that was being put on for me, and
he would talk about how there were missing posters and
all of the windows, and how every magazine and newspaper
article had my face in it, and just how all

(16:13):
of Salt Lake City was searching for me, but how
nobody would ever be able to find me because he
had me, And honestly, it seemed like it was true.
I mean, I remember times very early on that I
actually heard someone yelling my name. It was far away,
it wasn't like it was close. It was very faint
and very distant, but I heard someone yelling my name.
And then I remember another time, I mean, helicopter's flying

(16:34):
just what felt like right over us, so much so
that the trees around us were shaking, and that the
tent he had me hidden it was shaking, but nobody
found us. I mean, I remember airplanes flying low overhead,
like repeatedly searching and searching and searching, and nobody found me.

Speaker 3 (16:52):
So I mean, it did feel like it did feel
like he was right. It felt like he was invincible.

Speaker 1 (16:57):
And the few times that I tried to to escape,
that I tried to run away or try to stand
up for myself or try to talk back, I was
always punished for it. I was always like I was
always in trouble. So it just got to a point
where I was like, I just need to stay alive.
I just need to do whatever I can to stay alive.
It does not matter what it is. And so it

(17:19):
eventually was staying quiet. It was keeping my mouth shut.
It was doing what they told me to do. And
even if that meant going out into public and just
keeping my mouth shut, that meant that in my mind,
that meant that I would stay alive. That meant that
I needed to do what they told me to do,
and I would survive another day.

Speaker 3 (17:38):
And so I did.

Speaker 1 (17:39):
And I think unless you're in a situation where you
feel like your safety, your well being, your life is
really on the line, I think it's really difficult for
other people to understand. I mean, I think even I
feel like there's a lot of commonality actually between like

(18:00):
victims of sexual assault like my story, or abduction or
great victims and victims of domestic violence, even because from
the outside you can't always understand, well, why didn't you yell,
Why didn't you scream?

Speaker 3 (18:14):
Why didn't you run?

Speaker 1 (18:15):
I mean, I can't tell you how many times I've
been questioned like that. But then I've spoken and worked
with so many other victims who have been in like
domestically abusive marriages, and they talk about how, no, it's
not just easy, like it looks like I have a
card or a credit card. It looks like I have
a phone, looks like I have a car. It looks
like I can just like jump in and drive out.
But it's never that.

Speaker 4 (18:34):
Straightforward, or you have kids and you have to stay.

Speaker 1 (18:37):
Exactly, There's always there's always something more and or like
you've just been systematically decimated so that you feel like
you don't have any value, you don't have any worth.
Why would anyone believe you over for me? In my case,
my captors, I mean they were claiming they were servants

(18:57):
of God, and they were adults. I was a teenager.
Why would anyone believe adult a teenager over adults. Why
would anyone believe someone who's potentially more of a liar
a teenager versus someone claiming to do the work of
God adults. I mean, they just seemed like there was

(19:17):
such an imbalance of power and belief.

Speaker 3 (19:20):
Why would anybody believe me and risk their safety for me?

Speaker 2 (19:26):
Were you ever in your brain working out like how
you can escape? Or was it just as active like
I'm going to stay alive every day and this is
what I have to do.

Speaker 3 (19:36):
I mean, early on, I always thought about how I
could escape. I remember I remember.

Speaker 1 (19:41):
The second he got me into this camp, this hitting
camp site, just thinking as soon as I get a chance,
I'm going to run away. I mean, the whole time
he took me up into the mountains, I remember thinking,
I'm looking for my chance. I'm looking for my opportunity,
Like where can I run? But I mean a lot
of what we were hiking through. I mean it was
like a very steep, narrow ravine and we were coming
our way up the bottom. I mean, if I ran,

(20:03):
and he had me in front of him, so I mean,
uphill was my only option. And I mean like no matter, yeah,
if you want to admit it or deny it. But
like men and women are different. I mean ironically now
I run marathons, and I trained for marathons. But no

(20:24):
matter how much I run, no matter how long I run,
no matter how hard I tried to like improve my speed,
like my husband will still beat me. And he doesn't train,
he doesn't do anything well. He plays football once a week,
but like it's just faster, Like there's nothing I can
change about that. And so as he was taking me

(20:49):
up into the mountains, like even though I was looking
for a chance, and I was actually honestly so worried
that I had missed my chance.

Speaker 3 (20:55):
I was so worried that like, maybe there was.

Speaker 1 (20:59):
An opportunity to escape, to run away, and I had
missed it, or I was too scared to take it.
I remember being so scared of that thought that night. Now,
of course, looking back and like replaying that night, there
was never a chance. I mean he purposely stood right
behind me. He had his knife on me for almost
the whole night, and even when he put his knife away,

(21:22):
he was physically holding onto me. I mean, there really
was no opportunity for me to run away.

Speaker 2 (21:28):
Did you recognize him when he like abducted you. Do
you remember being like I remember him seeing me at
the park, or seeing him at my school or something.
Was he targeting you?

Speaker 3 (21:38):
Not immediately?

Speaker 1 (21:39):
No, I did not recognize him immediately. It wasn't until
we were almost too this hidden campsite up in the
mountains that I realized who he was. And even then,
I mean, it had been the last time that I
saw him. It was October November, like where at he well,

(22:02):
I had been out school close shopping with my mom,
like in September, right around the be end of the
school year. And actually it wasn't even just me, like
I had some of my brothers and my sister. We
were all out with my mom and we were looking
at clothes and he was in downtown Salt Lake and
he was begging for money. But instead of asking for

(22:22):
money from my mom, he asked her for work, and
she said she was like, I don't have any work,
but you can call my husband, and so she gave
him my dad's phone number, which he proceeded to call
my dad and asking, you know, do you have work?
And my dad had been building our family home. I
think he was building our family home my whole life.

(22:45):
But he was like, oh, like, I think I've got
some I don't remember if it was root work or
yard work, but he had some work. He's like, you
can come and help me outside the house, Like you're
not allowed inside, but you can come help me outside.

Speaker 3 (22:57):
And so he came one time.

Speaker 1 (22:59):
But all it was was him seeing me out school
close shopping with my mom just a few seconds, and
he had decided in that in those few seconds that
I was gonna be the one who's going to kidnap.
That was the only reason why he called my dad
to find out where we lived, and I remember when
I realized who he was. I remember turning to him

(23:22):
and being like, well, like my parents tried to help you,
like you asked for work, Like they didn't invite you over,
they weren't just like handing it out you asked them,
Like they went out of their way to try to
help you, give you something that you asked for.

Speaker 3 (23:36):
And this like your kidnapping me.

Speaker 1 (23:40):
And just I mean, he didn't give straight answers. Initially,
he'd just say things like he'd just say things like, oh,
all will be made known in due time, like you
know this is like all will be made known.

Speaker 3 (23:58):
I mean, he just was not speak straightforward.

Speaker 4 (24:01):
Was there any point in this process that he revealed
a goal like I want money, I want your life,
I want you with me for the rest of my life,
like what was And obviously we can't rationalize with absolutely insanity,
But is there at any point that he's describing to
you like what he wanted out of this?

Speaker 1 (24:22):
So the first night, yeah, he said, almost straight off
the bat, after we were outside of my home, I'm
taking you hostage. He he's yeah, he said he was
taking me hostage. He said he was taking me for ransom.
I mean, he didn't make those claims. But the closer
we got to this hiding spot and it took us.

(24:42):
I mean from the time it napped he kidnapped me
to the time we got this hiding spot like, it
wasn't quick.

Speaker 3 (24:48):
I mean he took me.

Speaker 1 (24:49):
It was probably between two and three am, I would
guess in the morning. By the time we got to
this hiding spot, the sun was up like it was bright,
you could see every thing. So I'm not even sure
exactly how long it took, but it was ours getting
back to this hiding place. And initially, as I said,

(25:09):
he mentioned, yes, I'm taking hostage, I'm taking you captive,
I'm holding you for ransom. But the closer we got
to this hiding spot, the more what he said shifted
from hostage and ransom to like all be made known
to you. God's plan for you will be made like
he kind of shifted.

Speaker 2 (25:29):
From said the wife comment to didn't he.

Speaker 1 (25:33):
That wasn't until that wasn't until we were actually in location.
And that's actually after I first saw his wife. She
was waiting for us. As soon as we walked into
this camp, she was right there, and I remember thinking, oh,
there's a woman here, then nothing that bad can happen
to me, Like women wouldn't let anything else.

Speaker 3 (25:51):
Truly terrible happened to me, So I was relieved.

Speaker 1 (25:56):
Actually, when I saw her, she brought me inside the tent,
she changed me, and then she got up and left,
and that's when he came in and he was like,
you're not my wife.

Speaker 6 (26:06):
I read that he said they wanted seven vulgin braids. Yes,
did they tell you that?

Speaker 5 (26:11):
Yes?

Speaker 3 (26:13):
He tried.

Speaker 5 (26:14):
Oh really so he tried to kidnap other people he tried.

Speaker 1 (26:16):
Yeah, yes, he made two other attempts on different girls
while I was with him.

Speaker 4 (26:25):
And is he having these conversations? Are they having these
conversations with you around you?

Speaker 3 (26:31):
I mean they weren't. They didn't.

Speaker 1 (26:33):
They didn't hide their conversations from me once they had me.
And kind of like what I was saying, they used
like religion, they used God to justify and manipulate everything.
So I mean, ultimately like he was a predator. Ultimately,
like he wanted to rape little girls, but to justify that,

(26:57):
he would be like, oh, this is such a heavy
burden God is placed upon me. He has not only
called me to you know, be his prophet and his servant,
but I am his davidic king in the last days,
and this is a burden I did not want to bear.
And I just I've God sent me a vision and

(27:18):
telling me I needed to take seven young brides, seven
young virgin brides, seven young girls to be my brides.
And they need to be young enough that they're still
that they're still malleable, that they can you know, they're
not so set in their ways and so set.

Speaker 3 (27:38):
In the ways of the world that like I can.

Speaker 1 (27:43):
He said it differently than this, but essentially groom them
into what I want them to be, that God can
work with them to be the help the helpmates I
need in life.

Speaker 5 (27:53):
So it's almost like a coat, small version of a coat,
or wants it to be. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (28:00):
Yeah, And he was kidnapping instead of convincing.

Speaker 4 (28:04):
So your sister is in bed with you the night
that you're taking I just I and she was the
one who helped sorry to interrupt, but to help identify him. Yes,
and also what I read, Okay, yeah, that's what I
was going to ask, is it. I know you credit
her quite a bit for getting even to the point
of rescue. Tell us her version of that night if

(28:26):
you can.

Speaker 1 (28:27):
Yeah. So she and I have talked about it since then,
and she talked about how she was actually awake when
I was kidnapped, Like she woke up, and I mean
she didn't just like pop her eyes wide open. She
was kind of just like keeping them closed and looking
through her lashes.

Speaker 3 (28:44):
And she said, what she said is it.

Speaker 1 (28:47):
Looked like he was like wearing light colored clothing. And
that was in like the newspaper reports. So when my
captor saw that in the newspaper reports, he'd say things like, oh,
you know, God blinded her eyes because I mean he
was in like a dark stalking cap and like a
dark sweat gloat sweatshirt, dark sweatpants, dark gloves. And my

(29:07):
sister said it looked like he had on like a
white hat and he had a light color, and he'd
be like, oh God, in one sense he veiled her
eyes from the truth, but also in another like she
was seeing my heavenly aura like that kind of thing.
And so she talked about how she watched him, and
she watched him take me and she thought he had

(29:29):
a gun.

Speaker 3 (29:30):
She didn't realize it was a knife.

Speaker 1 (29:31):
She talked about how she like waited and waited and
waited because the doors on our house had an alarm
system on him, so when you open the door, the
beeping would go off. But I guess, I guess the
magnets that set the alarm off had fallen out of
the back kitchen door, and just none of us knew
about it, Like we just we just didn't know that

(29:52):
it was malfunctioning. So he'd taken me on the back
kitchen door. So but the door never alerted the alarm,
so the alarm never went off.

Speaker 3 (30:01):
And so my sister she laid in bed and waited
and waited and waited.

Speaker 1 (30:03):
And she said that she heard our grandfather clock go
off two times, but the grandfather clock is accurate anyway.
I think my brother's like got in and like smacked
the pendulama a bit too hard and it broke it.
So it just kind of went off randomly whenever it
felt like it, and said she heard it go off

(30:25):
a couple of times, and then she just decided she
just had to tell my parents. She had to get
into my parents' room and tell them she thought he
was still maybe in the house, but she felt like
she had to take the risks, so she's talked about
how she had this ratty old baby blanket and she
like wrapped it around her shoulders and like draped it
over her head and ran into my parents' room and

(30:45):
she first went to my dad's side of the bed,
but he was like in a pretty heavy sleep, so
he didn't wake up. So she walked around the bed
to my mom's side, and my mom woke it up
and she was like, what's wrong with my Catherine, Come
tell me what's happening. And my little sister was just like,
Elizabeth is gone, and my mom was like, I'm sure
she's not gone, Like I'm sure you just had a
bad dream. And Catherine was like, no, a man came
and took her. And my Mom's like, no, I'm sure

(31:06):
a man didn't come and take her. You know, she
probably just like moved into like one of your brother's rooms,
or like down into the kitchen on the sofa because
like I'm I'm not a super cuddly person, like when
I sleep, I don't want to be touched, and my
sister is a very cuddly person, and she would just
like always cuddle right up next to me, but then

(31:28):
she sleeps really really hot and so she'll sweat in
her sleep, or at least she did as a child,
maybe not now.

Speaker 3 (31:33):
I don't know how it slept next her in.

Speaker 1 (31:34):
Years, but as a child, she'd like cud over up
next to me, and then she'd be like sweating in
her sleep, and like I would just get so hot,
and I'd keep moving over. But beds are only so big,
so it wouldn't be that uncharacteristic for me to get
up and leave the bedroom my shirt with my sister
and like go into like one of my brother's rooms,
or go into the kitchen and sleep on the sofa.

(31:56):
And so my mom was like, oh, it's okay, Like
she's just in a different room, it's okay. By this time,
my dad woke up and they started going through my
brother's bedrooms. They came downstairs, and at the bottom of
our stairs, you could go left into like the formal
living room, or you could go right into the kitchen.
My dad went left, my mom went right. She just
like slammed on all the lights because in the background,

(32:17):
my little sister kept saying, you're not going to find her.

Speaker 3 (32:20):
A man came and took her, and how old was
your sister? She was eight she was almost nine.

Speaker 4 (32:25):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (32:26):
Yeah, And.

Speaker 1 (32:29):
So my mom said, how has since told me that
when she went to the kitchen turned the lights on,
she just saw how the window above the kitchen sink
had been forced open, the screen had been cut, and
at that point she just started screaming to my dad
to call the.

Speaker 4 (32:43):
Police man and then for your father to find out
that it was someone that he hired too.

Speaker 1 (32:51):
That must have been but I mean he didn't. It
wasn't even like an immediate thing. I mean everybody knows later. Yeah, yeah,
everybody thought it was this other guy that kidnapped me,
who actually ended up dying in jail, and everyone's like, oh,
Elizabeth is dead. She's gone, Like he's dead, she's gone,
will never find her, Like the secret of her disappearance

(33:15):
has been buried with this man. And it was my
little sister who yeah, who then came forward months and
months later being like I think I know who it
was And it wasn't. It wasn't this other man that
everyone thought it was. And so my dad called it
the police to tell them, and from my understanding is

(33:39):
they were quite dismissive of it, and my dad was like,
well we should at least get like, how let us
do like a police sketch, like have a sketch artist,
let us come down and describe him. And so they
had I think my two older brothers, no, my older
brother and then my brother, my younger brother, go down
to the police station with my dad, and each of

(34:01):
them worked with the sketch artists to try to like
recreate what they thought he looked like. But the police,
my dad, I feel like, has said it was more
they were just trying to humor my family as opposed
to taking it seriously. At least that's what it sounded like.
And the police were like, you know, we think we

(34:22):
still don't think it's this guy.

Speaker 3 (34:23):
We think it's this other guy.

Speaker 1 (34:25):
But my dad was good friends with John Walsh from
America's Most Wanted at the time, and so he called
up John and he was like, Mary Catherine thinks it's
this person.

Speaker 3 (34:34):
John Walsh went.

Speaker 1 (34:35):
On Larry King Live that night and he was the
one that put the police sketch, like he told Larry
King about it, and Larry King like showed the police
sketch to America.

Speaker 2 (35:00):
And then how soon after were you captured?

Speaker 1 (35:02):
Well, I guess so my understanding of what happened is
this please sketch wed out, And I mean he didn't
go by his name of Brian Mitchell. He went by
his name. He called himself a Manuel. And like Mary Catherine,
my sister had remembered that name and she.

Speaker 3 (35:21):
Told my dad, I think it's a Manuel.

Speaker 1 (35:25):
So then when this name, when this sketch was released,
the name Emmanuel was released with it as well. And
from what I understand, his Brian Mitchell's sister and her
husband had been watching the news, saw that he was
a person of interest, called up the phone and said, well,
actually his name is Brian Mitchell. He's been seen or

(35:47):
he's been seen like a couple of times late, not
in the recent months, but before winter. And he was
with his wife, Wanda Barzi, and there was a younger
woman there with them. But they were able to give
like photos was better than the police sketch that was
being shown. They were yeah, they sent in photos, and

(36:08):
that happened. I think I'm not sure exactly when Larry
King Live aired, but I think the photos appeared at
the beginning of March.

Speaker 3 (36:16):
And I was rescued March twelfth.

Speaker 2 (36:18):
And how was that? Did the like did the police
come in the house, like, what was that rescue?

Speaker 5 (36:25):
Like?

Speaker 1 (36:25):
So I had been able to convince my captors that
we should come back to Salt Lake. So we ended
up hitchhiking back to Salt Lake. And it was the
first day that we had made it back to Salt Lake,
and my captors were to rush to get me.

Speaker 3 (36:38):
Up into the mountains. They wanted to hide me away,
they wanted to make sure that they had me safe.

Speaker 1 (36:46):
We tucked away nobody would see me or find me,
and walking up State Street and it just felt like,
I don't know, a whole bunch of police cars all
of a sudden showed up and all these police officers
jumped out and started questioning my captors at first, and

(37:10):
then they started questioning me.

Speaker 2 (37:13):
And you had given a fake name, right, I mean.

Speaker 1 (37:15):
Yes, i'd been I gave a fake name, but I
had been told like I'd been prepped. There was a
whole backstory on everything I was supposed to say, on
what I was supposed to do. And I had a
captor on either side of me, I mean, like physically
touching me.

Speaker 4 (37:29):
You're either side fourteen years old, yeah, and you have
been under this for nine months at this time. Yeah,
that is heavy and brainwashy and reality shifting, and still
at fourteen, that's young.

Speaker 1 (37:46):
So so yes, Initially I did not just give the answers,
and it wasn't until they separated me from my captors
that I finally answered them.

Speaker 4 (37:58):
Were you hoping that the police could see in you
any sort of like physical like you know, like we
always kind of joke, like the blink twice kind of thing,
you know, But are you looking at the police like
like just staring at them like please ask more, please
separate me? Are you what does it feel like in
that moment because you're so close. I, of course I wanted,

(38:21):
I wanted the police to rescue me, but I also
I didn't.

Speaker 1 (38:27):
I didn't want to say anything because because you know,
if the police didn't rescue me, I didn't I didn't
want to be punished.

Speaker 3 (38:36):
I didn't want to be hurt. I didn't want my
family to be hurt.

Speaker 1 (38:38):
Like I felt that burden of responsibility it was was
very heavy. So I didn't want to say anything that
would possibly endanger my family or myself. But I think
as a kid, you look at police, you look at
figures of authority, and you think, like they're superhuman. You
think they can see through, You think they have all

(38:59):
the answers, and that you don't need to say anything
or do anything. They just naturally have all of the answers.
And I think that's how I felt in that moment,
like I wanted them to have all the answers. I
wanted them to see through the lies that I was saying.
I wanted them to see through the lies that my
captors were saying. I wanted them to see the truth.

Speaker 6 (39:18):
Yeah, I read that when I think it was maybe
when you're in the police car you can clarify it,
but you were asking if they were okay at that point,
I'm not right.

Speaker 3 (39:27):
It was a very. It was like a very.

Speaker 1 (39:32):
It was very intense because the police, they they were
not gentle. They're not gentle with me, Like, they were
really very abrasive and quite aggressive. And I don't I
don't think i'm either as a person, and I was
a kid, so I was even less so. And as

(39:58):
soon as I had told them who I was, I'd
been handcuffed.

Speaker 4 (40:01):
What Yeah, why handcuff? Why were you handcuffed when you
told them you were Elizabeth?

Speaker 1 (40:06):
Yeah, I was handcuffed and I was put in the
back of the car, and I thought I was in trouble,
and they really didn't tell me what was going on.

Speaker 2 (40:17):
Why in the world would they handcuff you.

Speaker 3 (40:19):
It's interesting.

Speaker 1 (40:21):
I've heard a lot of things, and actually about a
year ago, I for the first time I re met
the officers that were there that day, and I mean,
I'm grown up now. It's you know, it's been over
twenty years since that happened, and it was incredible because it.

Speaker 3 (40:38):
Was still like they were still like they were kind.

Speaker 1 (40:42):
I could tell they were happy I was there. I
could tell that they wanted to answer any questions I had.
But like, even still they were not gentle people.

Speaker 4 (40:52):
Why did they hank I don't understand. Why why, I
really don't understand.

Speaker 3 (40:56):
At the time, there was not like a best practices.

Speaker 1 (41:01):
I was told that just nobody was allowed in the
back of the police car without being handcuffed. I mean
they said, like how they had a teenager the week
before who or recently who wasn't handcuffed and tried to
stab the driver, the police officer driving. So it was
like a safety protocol for them. But just so you know,
I had been handcuffed. I hadn't been told what was

(41:24):
going on. I didn't know where I was being taken
because I'd been handcuffed. I thought I was guilty. I
didn't know if I was just going to be released
to them, So I mean I did ask questions because
I didn't know.

Speaker 3 (41:33):
Like, for lack of better words, it.

Speaker 1 (41:38):
Almost felt like I needed to still play play a role,
that I still needed to protect myself and my family
because if I was going to be released back to
these captors, I didn't want to be punished.

Speaker 3 (41:55):
I didn't want my family to be endangered. I mean,
I did not know I was safe.

Speaker 1 (41:59):
I thought if they thought I was innocent, wouldn't they
have taken me home? Wouldn't they have told me what
was going on. Wouldn't they have let me call my family?

Speaker 6 (42:07):
Like yeah, you'd think that would be the fust What's
it would come from the police officer?

Speaker 2 (42:11):
You're safe, here's a blanket and some warm tea, and
your family's right there, like.

Speaker 5 (42:16):
Yeah, yeah, stick these home costs and get in the
back of the car.

Speaker 4 (42:20):
Awful disgusting, it is it? It has seemed crazy to me,
and I wonder if it feels this way to you,
because like during this time. I live in Michigan. She
lives in Michigan, and we know your name and we
know your face, like you were literally everywhere, And it's
wild to me that you could be taken into public

(42:42):
moved locations beyond a Greyhound bus and people not know
it's you, especially in this kind of like awkward looking
trio of people that's traveling. Did they change your appearance
at all? Were they you know, like I've I've heard that,
not like I study a lot of kidnappings, because honestly,
it all just kind of stresses me out a bit.
And like the fact this man worked on your house,

(43:03):
like I'm like, like, I'm panicking. So that's one of
the questions I have for you. But it usually there's
like a typically there's some sort of like appearance change
or something so that you're a little less recognizable. Did
they do those things to you where you like, my
face has got to be everywhere? How is no one
recognizing me? Like the silent screams? I just can't imagine.

(43:24):
First of all, I can't imagine being fourteen and this
is your reality for nine full months. I think I
think anyone that questions why you would do anything should
probably stop questioning because you're fourteen and your reality has
become survival, a different kind of trauma that no one
in this room can identify with no one, And so
I defend you in that and I never want you

(43:45):
to have to over explain yourself ever again if I
had one prayer for you, But do do you feel
like I'm wondering? I'm you, and I'm like, I want
people to feel the silent screams. I want them to
see something in my eyes that says this is not right.
I want to pass somebody a note at a diner,
I want to take too long in the bathroom, or
you know, like were those thoughts, where are those thoughts

(44:07):
in this whole San Diego relocation and then back to
Salt Lake City, I mean.

Speaker 1 (44:13):
They were always there, Like one time I had to
go to the bathroom and yes I was, I was
veiled and I was. I mean that the way that
they had me dressed, I mean, just everything again kind
of played into that form of that appearance of religious extremism.
So and again, taking that time period back into consideration,

(44:35):
like I remember walking down the street seeing people walking
towards us. They'd stop when they'd see us, they'd cross
the street, they walked down the other side past us,
and once.

Speaker 3 (44:42):
They were past us, they'd cross back over. I remember people.

Speaker 1 (44:45):
Rolling down their windows, sticking their heads out of their
windows and yelling things like oh sama, like out the
window at us. Like they really took advantage of this
situation to the fullest. I mean they just like they
really did. And I think it would be.

Speaker 3 (45:03):
Silly to say that they were, to say that they
were stupid.

Speaker 1 (45:08):
Mean, unfair, evil, sure, monsters, absolutely, but stupid they were not.
And they recognized, you know, like, oh, people are scared
of religion. Like if people question you, like why are
you doing this or why are you dressed that way?
And you say, well, it's part of my religion, that
usually just shuts people up and they walk on their way.

(45:31):
And so they recognize that, and they utilize that. That
became a very effective and powerful tool.

Speaker 4 (45:38):
They did make you wear a wag at one time, didn't.

Speaker 3 (45:40):
They They did? Yes?

Speaker 1 (45:41):
Oh did they change my parents? So yes, for the
most part when we were in For most of the time,
I was I had like a headdress on and had
like a veil covering my face, and like I was
dressed in like these long robes. When we were hitchhiking
back from California, I mean, they had dressed me in
clothes that they had just like found in an abandoned

(46:01):
homeless camp. They went to like the equivalent of Dollar
General or the Dollar Store, and they had like some
gray wigs that were there, and so on the way
back they had me wearing like a gray wig, and
then they had me wearing sunglasses. And I mean then,
I mean, on top of it, like it was it

(46:22):
was hard getting back to Utah. I mean California to Utah.
Like you think, oh, that's like not that far, but actually,
just like hitch hiking back, I mean you're not even
taking the most direct route. They were like, oh, we
don't want people to like, we don't want people to
know exactly our final destination. So they'd put like different
cities on their signs and hopefully Utah would just be

(46:47):
on the way and then we would just drop our
signs when we got to where we wanted to be.
But also we spent like so much time out in
the desert, and there wasn't shade, there wasn't cover. I mean,
I'm a pretty white person, like I'm borderline glow in
the dark occasionally, and like I was burned, Like my

(47:10):
face was was burned and blistered, and then.

Speaker 3 (47:13):
It became like puffy.

Speaker 1 (47:15):
So sometimes when I look back at the pictures of
the day that I was rescued, to hit my vanity.
But also like, I mean, even then, I look at
the pictures that they plastered on the front page of
the newspaper, and I'm.

Speaker 4 (47:31):
Like, why why, such as you were America's kid, and
we were all looking for you. We didn't bear you
were sunburned. We wanted you back, cared, I know, like, and.

Speaker 1 (47:40):
It's not like it's not like they had me in
a bra and I was, you know, by that point,
I was fifteen. Like, no fifteen year old girl wants
to be on the front page of a newspaper or
a magazine without a bra.

Speaker 4 (47:51):
And listen, no one's judging how you looked when you
were rescued, I promise you. But we said you that's
how if we were happy. So how long were they
sentenced for?

Speaker 1 (47:59):
So Brian Mitchell is sentenced for life and wander no chance,
no chance of Parl, no chance of Wanda Barzee is
now out.

Speaker 2 (48:09):
She's out, she's out.

Speaker 5 (48:11):
She got and went to a certain eighteen. How did
you feel about that?

Speaker 3 (48:16):
I was disappointed.

Speaker 1 (48:19):
I I mean she was there, she not just like
she never protected me from him. She encouraged him and
doing whatever he wanted to me.

Speaker 2 (48:30):
She there with and all the salt stuff was happening.

Speaker 3 (48:34):
Yeah, like watched it happen, encouraged it to happen.

Speaker 1 (48:40):
So there was like a part of me that was like, well,
I feel like my mom was always like if you
don't stand up for people who are being hurt, then
you're just as bad as the person doing the hurting.
And maybe that's just like the mentality I was raised with.
But I look at her, and I mean she had
a prior marriage where she had six children of her own,

(49:01):
And part of me is like, how could you like
bring children into this world, raise children who are all
older than me, and then sit aside and watch your
current husband rape me repeatedly and abuse me and like
chain me up with hold food and water from me,
forced me to go naked. Like how can you, who

(49:23):
who was a mother, just sit aside and do that?

Speaker 5 (49:27):
Would you ever want to sit in the room with
a no nice expression?

Speaker 4 (49:31):
No? No, do you remember the first word your parents
said when they got to see you again.

Speaker 1 (49:40):
My dad was, I mean, he was the first one
I saw. He came to the Sandy Police station and
he was like he was just in tears. And I
didn't know he was coming. I didn't know he was there,
Like they just didn't tell me anything.

Speaker 4 (49:57):
And so I.

Speaker 3 (50:00):
It was shocking, honestly to have him just run in
the room all of a sudden. He was just crying.
He was like, Elizabeth, is it really you? Is it
really you? And he just kind of repeated that over
and over, and even my mom.

Speaker 1 (50:15):
On the way from the Sandy police station where I
was initially brought to the downtown headquarters in Salt Lake.

Speaker 3 (50:24):
My dad was in the car.

Speaker 1 (50:25):
We were in the backseat of a police car and
the police was taking us there, and he like pulled
out his phone and called my mom up and he's like, Lois,
it's real, it's real. She's here, she's alive. She's here
with me. And I was like, let me talk to her,
let me talk to her. Put her on the phone,
and so he passed the phone to me and my
mom she said the same thing. She's like, Elizabeth, Elizabeth,
like is it really you? Are you there are you

(50:47):
like like say something to speak, say something and then
the his battery died.

Speaker 4 (50:52):
Oh my god, I know, Dad, I know, bro, I
didn't see that coming. I'm not gonna lie, Dad, Like,
did you get him a charger for his birthday?

Speaker 2 (51:04):
Well Christmas?

Speaker 3 (51:05):
That it was back when everyone had like a Nokia brick.

Speaker 4 (51:08):
Put them for having a phone, to be honest, because
I mean, honestly, two thousand and two we were flip
phoning and yeah, it was.

Speaker 3 (51:14):
It wasn't a smartphone. It was like when you're.

Speaker 4 (51:17):
Pushing A three times to get you know, like or
one three times to get an A or whatever.

Speaker 1 (51:21):
Yeah, and it was like one charge would last you
a few days. I mean the only thing you could
do was call, text and maybe play Snake and that
was it.

Speaker 2 (51:30):
Oh snaky wow. Way to bring it back.

Speaker 3 (51:33):
So you got to.

Speaker 2 (51:36):
You got to say something to Brian though when he
was sentenced correct.

Speaker 3 (51:40):
Yes, I mean he didn't. How was that listen, of course?

Speaker 2 (51:44):
But how was that for you to to say something
to him? Would you want to go back? Is there
something you'd want to go back and say differently? Would
you want to say I wish I would have said
this or this is what I would want to say
to him now, So I'm sure for teen versus what
you're in your thirties.

Speaker 3 (52:02):
Well, I didn't.

Speaker 1 (52:03):
The trial didn't happen until I was in my twenties,
Like it was almost it was almost.

Speaker 3 (52:09):
A decade after I was rescued. Yeah, the it's crazy.

Speaker 1 (52:13):
Actually, so my case went straight into the state courts,
which is what you'd expect, but it took so long,
and it was back when there was a statute of limitations.
And actually it was taking so long in the state
courts that the Statute of limitations was coming up, so

(52:35):
there was a chance they could have been released, wow,
just because that statute of limitations was coming into effect, which.

Speaker 3 (52:41):
Is when I was then approached by the.

Speaker 1 (52:46):
US Attorney of Utah and asked if I wanted to
move it to federal courts, if I wanted, like the
federal courts to try to prosecute it, And he explained
to me what was happening in the state courts, and
I was like, of course, is that even a question
like do I want him out? No, of course I
want him behind bars. And so then it got moved

(53:07):
to the.

Speaker 3 (53:09):
Federal courts, and that still even then took a long time.
I mean it was I think eight nine years when
it finally came to trial and sentencing. I think was
just shy of ten years, maybe for nine years right
around there, Like it was, it was a long time.

Speaker 1 (53:33):
So by the time, like when I've made my victim
impact statement to him, like a lot of time had
passed and I'd grown up a lot. Honestly, I don't
even fully remember what I said that day, but I
trust myself.

Speaker 2 (53:53):
So there's nothing you would say now then to him.

Speaker 3 (53:55):
I don't have anything to say to him.

Speaker 2 (53:57):
Yeah, Alan, you were you were saying earlier too, You're like,
I don't know if I should come on, how she'd

(54:18):
feel about being around a guy, And I'm like, well,
she's older now, she's not.

Speaker 6 (54:21):
I understand not wasn't It was me because you didn't
know I was going to be in possibly going to
be in this, and then you guys have turned up
and all of a sudden, I'm like, yeah, I want to.
So it was almost intrusive, and I didn't want to
be the male in the room that was making himself
a part of this when maybe it wasn't welcome.

Speaker 3 (54:41):
That was my thought.

Speaker 2 (54:43):
You were going off of it because of like how
she trusts men.

Speaker 5 (54:45):
Now, yeah, there was a.

Speaker 6 (54:46):
Little bit of that, Like it was one it was
going to be intrusive. It may have come off as disrespectful,
and I didn't.

Speaker 5 (54:53):
You're clearly.

Speaker 6 (54:55):
A very powerful woman told in a very powerful woman
and very powerfelt kid, But I don't know what you
are like around men there. So I was like maybe
I should maybe I'm not welcome, which is what I
said to you. I might not be welcome in the room.

Speaker 2 (55:10):
Well always welcome back, but.

Speaker 5 (55:13):
Husband, and I'm like, oh, she's good.

Speaker 2 (55:16):
But how was that to trust men after that?

Speaker 1 (55:19):
Well? As a teenager, yeah, I was scared of men,
Like I didn't want to be left alone with men.

Speaker 3 (55:27):
I didn't trust men. But again, like it's not like
think Kevin's.

Speaker 1 (55:35):
I didn't grow up in a society where there are
arranged marriages and thank goodness, it's not like my parents
were like, oh, Elizabeth, like we're gonna we're gonna sign
you up to marry this like fifty year old man.
Like that's not If that had been my life, then
I probably would still be scared of men. But like

(55:56):
I was, I was brought home and like I wasn't
forced into anything, and like my parents tried to support
me and give me whatever space I wanted or needed.
And I mean I trusted my dad, and I trusted
my grandpa, and I trusted my uncles, and that was

(56:18):
about it. My brothers, I've got four of them, and
that was enough at first, you know. And then, like
as silly as it might sound, during my kidnapping, like
when he's telling me that I'm now his wife, when
he's telling me that like one day I'll have his kids,
that I will you know, I will come to love him,

(56:40):
that I will come to you know, willingly do all
of the things he was forcing me to do. Like
it just felt like he was like shattering one dream
at a time, because like, yeah, I totally was that
little girl that like one day I did want to
grow up and fall in love and I wanted to
get married, and I wanted to have a family, and
I wanted all those things. I'm not saying like I
wanted that I'm like right that second, but I mean

(57:02):
like I wanted those things from my life, and like
it felt like those things had been taken away from me.
And so when I was rescued, I mean it kind
of felt like those things, at least the opportunity for
things those things to happen, had been given back. So
although I wasn't ready for any of that at that time,

(57:23):
like those were still things I wanted in my life.

Speaker 3 (57:27):
So I'm just yeah, I'm grateful for the time that
I had.

Speaker 2 (57:32):
And how was that healing journey? Was it just like,
what was the thing that helped you the most through
the healing?

Speaker 3 (57:40):
I think it was just knowing that I was loved unconditionally.

Speaker 1 (57:46):
I think that made the biggest, the biggest difference and
the biggest impact. And actually now as an advocate, when
I talked to parents, I think that is probably the
greatest gift that any parent can give their child, is
to make sure that they know that they're.

Speaker 3 (58:00):
Well, that their children know that you love them unconditionally.
There are no strings attached to your love. Your children
might disappoint you or might do things that you don't
agree with, but you will still love them. They couldn't
do anything that would ever stop you from loving them.

Speaker 1 (58:15):
Right.

Speaker 2 (58:15):
Well, when we talk about this a lot too, because
KB is Christon's very protective, I say, a psychopath, but
well I was I was trying to be nice. So yeah,
like you like, I mean she's breathes the air up close,
like and it just has them. And I'm a little
bit more, you know, I still very protective, but there's

(58:37):
a there's a so I will say, as a mom, now,
how what do you what are you doing? I know,
the to make sure they love the love unconditional, But
is there from your experience and what happened to you
as a kid, is there something that you're now doing
as a mom being more aware of or I mean
I don't even know, like what's the I mean, stranger.

Speaker 4 (58:57):
Danger is one thing, right, like we all know that,
but like being in the walk that you've had, Yeah,
how does that transform into being the daughter, son or
children of Elizabeth smart Well?

Speaker 3 (59:08):
I mean, first I just want to say, like my
case really is the exception.

Speaker 1 (59:13):
Like I'm like, it's not me like bragging or being
like I'm so special, but it really is the exception
in that I Mike story is a stranger abduction.

Speaker 3 (59:23):
I did not know him. I did not have a
personal relationship with him. I did not know him.

Speaker 1 (59:28):
He saw me one time for like forty five seconds maybe,
and that was it. That was all he decided that's
all it took, and he had decided. I was one
conem I didn't know him, there was no personal relationship there.

Speaker 3 (59:40):
The vast majority of abductions.

Speaker 1 (59:44):
Of sexual assault come from people that you know, people
that you trust, whether that's a family member, someone in
your community that you have a relationshipship with, someone that
has access to your kids. That is where the vast
majority of a productions and sexual assault comes from. And
so when we do talk to kids, I think it

(01:00:05):
is so important to be clear, like I like, talk
about what can be, what happens, make sure that they
realize that if they say no, that no has power
and that that no should be respected, That they that
other people don't have control over their body. That yes,
there are of course situations like you know, if a

(01:00:27):
child needs helps bathing themselves, or like they got hurt
and they need you to look at it, or you're
taking them into the doctor and you're in the room
with them, Like there's times when it's appropriate that that
for someone else to touch their body or look at
their body, but for the most part it's it's not,
and that they should trust their instinct if they don't
feel safe, if they don't like someone if they like

(01:00:47):
if they I don't know, if their radar is going off,
that something's wrong, that that should be, that those instincts
should be encouraged, and then that bond of trust between
you and your child should be so strong that they
know that they can come to you, talk to you
about what's happened, and you will believe them instead of
just dismissing it. You will believe them, and you'll support them,

(01:01:10):
and then you'll help them to like figure out what
to do next. So I think, for me, what I
try to do, I'm not perfect in it, none of us,
by the way, and I'm not a parenting expert. Just
for the record, I feel like a lot of people
ask me, so, how do you raise your kids? I'm like, well,
I'm trying, still trying to figure it out. I am

(01:01:32):
so open to suggestions and advice other parents have, But
I feel like the advice that I've been given, the
things that I feel like i'm like learning along the
way that I've been helpful are I mean being open
with your kids. When your kids start asking questions, that's
the right time to start giving them answers. Don't wait
for them to google it or learn from a friend.

Speaker 2 (01:01:53):
Do they know about your kidnapping?

Speaker 5 (01:01:54):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (01:01:55):
They all could tell you the.

Speaker 1 (01:01:58):
Very broad overarching stone, right, They probably couldn't tell you
nitty gritty details of anything.

Speaker 2 (01:02:06):
Yeah, yeah, because you're right, because they can anybody can
google anything. Is there anything that you you haven't told me?
Did you tell them about the assaults?

Speaker 1 (01:02:15):
And so my oldest she we've started having those conversations.
We haven't gone into huge depth yet, but we have
begun having those conversations because I also think of like
who I was before I was kidnapped, and like, honestly,
like I was innocence. I was like I might have

(01:02:36):
been fourteen, but I didn't know anything, Like I loved
a very sheltered life.

Speaker 3 (01:02:41):
I lived a very protected life.

Speaker 1 (01:02:44):
And also like in my life, nobody took the time
to like talk to me and be like there's a
difference between like consenting sex versus rape versus sexual be
so all of it kind of seemed like it was
the same thing to me, and I kind of I

(01:03:05):
look back on my life and I think how damaging
not having that education was during my kidnapping and how
long it took me to learn that afterwards, and how hard.

Speaker 3 (01:03:16):
Honestly, that road was learning that.

Speaker 1 (01:03:20):
So, I mean, I want my girls in particular, to
like understand there is a very big difference between abuse,
sexual abuse, and rape versus.

Speaker 3 (01:03:31):
Like loving intimacy.

Speaker 1 (01:03:33):
And I don't want them to feel ashamed. I mean,
heaven forbid anything it's ever happens to them, to any
of my kids, But I don't want them to ever
feel ashamed for someone else's actions because I did, even
though like I knew, like logically I knew it wasn't
my fault, but I still was embarrassed just because people

(01:03:54):
they didn't talk about abuse, and they didn't talk about rape,
and they didn't talk about you know, sure there's the news,
but that kind of that felt unrelatable. That felt like
it was a different world. It didn't feel like it
was my world. It felt like it was some world on.

Speaker 3 (01:04:09):
The wrong side of the tracks, if you will. So
that was really that was hard.

Speaker 2 (01:04:17):
Yeah, So, now where can listeners find you? And then
where can they find your advocacy work to So.

Speaker 1 (01:04:29):
In twenty eleven, we started the Elizabeth Smart Foundation and
we're still here, miraculously amazing. So go to Elizabethsmartfoundation dot org.
And that's our website or Elizabeth Smart Foundation on Instagram
or Facebook social media sites. We're there, and then we

(01:04:51):
have our own podcast called Smart Talks. It is also
through the foundation where we cover I mean, we cover
these harder topics, but we also have like inspiring, amazing
guests who share their stories or their expertise and their
knowledge of all things pertaining to.

Speaker 3 (01:05:13):
Un around the world of.

Speaker 1 (01:05:16):
Rape and sexual violence and hope and healing And.

Speaker 4 (01:05:19):
What would be the one thing you would want them
to know that have been in that abuse.

Speaker 1 (01:05:24):
I feel like there's a few things I'd want them
to know. I think the first thing I'd want them
to know is that that you do matter.

Speaker 3 (01:05:34):
You are special. This is not your fault, Like you
didn't do anything to deserve this. Nobody wakes up.

Speaker 1 (01:05:42):
In the morning and being like, oh, what today feels
like a really good day to be abused? Like nobody
does that. Nobody deserves to be hurt or abuse. The
next thing I'd want them to know is that I
know it can feel like this is going to define
you for the rest of your life. Like I don't
know how many airplanes I've gotten on or restaurants I've
sat down in where people just stare and stare and stare,

(01:06:04):
and they're like, I know I know you from somewhere.
You just your face is so familiar.

Speaker 3 (01:06:08):
Where do I know you from?

Speaker 1 (01:06:09):
And then and then it'll like hit him and I'm like,
you're that girl that was kidnapped. I'm like, say it
a little bit louder, please, It's not like I'm on
a date or anything.

Speaker 4 (01:06:23):
Also I'm an adult and also awkward. Yeah, but remember
later and write it jump in a journal or something, sir.

Speaker 1 (01:06:31):
Like it's easy to feel like defined by one moment
in your life, or like one thing in your life.
Like I remember after I was rescued, I was so
worried if I died tomorrow and my funeral happened tomorrow,
what is what is going to be the topic anybody
talks about?

Speaker 3 (01:06:45):
Oh, it's such a tragedy, Like she was kidnapped and
then she died. She kidnapped and survived just to die,
Like I was, like, my kidnapping is going to dominate
my funeral? Like what a morbid thought for like a
fifteen year old kid to have, But that was my thought.

Speaker 1 (01:07:01):
So like I think it's common to feel like easily
defined by these moments maybe one or two moments in
your life.

Speaker 3 (01:07:09):
But I don't think that's the truth.

Speaker 1 (01:07:10):
I think you define yourself by how you live your life,
what you do next, how you respond, like what you
do the rest of today, what you do the rest
of tomorrow, the rest of your life, Like I think
that's kind of.

Speaker 3 (01:07:20):
What makes you who you are. And then and then finally,
the last thing I'd want someone who has been abused
to know is that you deserve to be happy. Take
time for happiness. Find your happiness, like whatever it is,
like singing or dancing, or painting, or reading a book
or baking, I don't know, football, like whatever it.

Speaker 4 (01:07:39):
Is, whistling you love to whistled on? That sounds like
a point.

Speaker 3 (01:07:45):
Must be another Scottish trade.

Speaker 1 (01:07:48):
Like find whatever it is that brings you joy and
practice it regularly, Like don't just like put it off
for tomorrow, like all of us have busy less there's
always something to fill your life life up with, like take.

Speaker 3 (01:08:02):
Time just to enjoy and be happy as well.

Speaker 2 (01:08:05):
A meant to that. Well, thank you so much Elisheth
for coming on and sharing your story and everything that
you do. Thank you, appreciate you, Thank you