January 17, 2021 • 48 mins
Everyone is buzzing about the Tiger documentary.
Contrary to what you might expect, Jana is speaking with Rachel Uchitel. One of the MOST recognized and infamous “other woman” of all time.
Jana admits she hates Rachel.
Things go up, down, and sideways from there.
With all sides agreeing to be totally honest and transparent, we have tears, anger and breakdowns. will it end with a breakthrough or will it be a nightmare?
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Wind Down and I'm her radio podcast. Hey guys, welcome
to another episode of wine Down. I'm so excited, said
no one ever. That's such a trigger because that song bombed,
said no one ever. It's still a fun song. Yeah. Um,
(00:22):
we have an interesting podcast today. By the way, that
was an interesting start. We can cut it. I was
just trying to get it to give you something. Um,
we have an interesting podcast today. We have Rachel you
could tell on today. Um, she is one of tigers
and mistresses Tiger Woods. Yes, I feel like he comments
(00:47):
like a one nam or. It's like Oprah. You never know.
Our listeners are primarily the other tiger our our listeners
are primarily female. Who's the other tiger? Was King? Okay, yeah,
see exactly there's the only one tiger Tiger King. Who's that? Oh?
(01:08):
I mean I would say, who's the what's the guy's name? Jo? Exotic? Um?
But anyways, so this is going to be interesting. I yeah,
all right, here's the scoop. This is gonna suck for
Jane and I. It's gonna be triggering, it's going to
(01:32):
be uncomfortable, but y'all love that. So you're welcome. You're
welcome and no, So we're gonna talk to her. We're
gonna ask you some questions that might even make you,
as a listener, squirm. It's gonna sure as he'll make
us squirm. Um. But you know, I here's the thing is,
(01:52):
at the end of the at the end of the day,
Janna and I know we're in a better place now
than we have been for years in the past, and
we're going to still be professional about it and address
address things and you know, make the most of it
just for you know, a learning situation for all of us. Yeah,
(02:13):
I mean, I yeah, I mean it's it stinks because
of course things come up and things. It's and I
think one of the things that I have a hard
time with is like, oh, why are we you know,
dragging Mike through the mud again or bringing it back up.
But it's like, this is this is our story. Unfortunately,
this one's going to bring up our story a little
bit more. Um. But it just it sucks for both
(02:36):
of us, sucks for you, it sucks for me. Um.
But I feel like it's interesting because I remember I
had a conversation since we're going there, let's just go
there completely. I had a conversation with one of your
fair girls, And I remember asking her, did you not
(02:56):
even think about me? Like even after you found out
who I was and I was pregnant and I was married,
like you didn't like And that's my that's my issue
with girls like Rachel, did you not think of me?
The wife? And like how that would gut me? Like
I understand, no, I know, And it's the same thing
(03:19):
for the husband, like why didn't you think of me too?
You know, I know it's two people to tango and
it's not just her fault, and it's not just Tiger's fault,
it's both of them. You know, it's equally their faults.
But you know, I know that's the same question, like
why wouldn't you think of me? But then the woman too,
I'm like, you're a woman, Like don't you know that
(03:41):
you're killing another woman right now? What do you think
my st mark coming on? Well, I feel like there
is a tendency sometimes and I'm not sure what the
psychological element that this is, but it does seem to
be a tendency to blame the woman almost more than
the man in some of these situations. I'm not talking
about your situation specifically, but does seem like she she
(04:02):
receives the ire, the the real anger goes to her
where he's just a dumb guy who did a stupid thing.
But women need to stick together. How can they betray
each other like that? No, I totally hear you on that.
I mean, I I feel like I equally um killed
both of you in the situation. But um, no, I
(04:23):
do think the woman gets a bad a worserain name.
I mean, Tiger can move on and he can go
to winning championships again, and this girl has the scarlet
letter UM on her, So that that sucks, I think
as a as a woman. But um, you know, I
(04:44):
I don't know. I don't know why. Like I mean,
I know, I remember obviously getting upset with you, but
when I talked to your one affair, it's like that's
just what I couldn't understand because I'm just like I
wanted her to say that she did think of me,
that she did feel sorry, you know, and I don't
(05:04):
know if there's the empathy there, you know, and it
felt like such a so I don't know. So I
remember leaving that conversation and just hating how that conversation went.
And so that's where I feel like it might come
up super triggering for me because it's just she represents
all the women that I was like, you know, but
(05:26):
I hate that. You know, I've had to work past
and I know at the end of the day, it
has nothing to do with you know, me, or it's
just it's just a situation. But yeah, I was just
gonna say, you know, it's I can totally understand that,
(05:46):
like because women, you know, there is that that almost
expectation of women unity, unity against you know, against men
getting you know, we gotta have each other's back and
all that, and and a guy doing is just an
asshole doing it. And you know, I think the minder
(06:12):
that I have is just being someone in that situation,
whether it mail or whether it's the woman or the male,
neither one of them are thinking about anybody else. Infidelity
is a selfish act being with someone who's taken as
a selfish act. So it's you know that questions asked
like how could you not think of the wife? How
(06:33):
could you not think of of his kids or whatever? Well,
the truth is they're not because they're thinking selfishly, whether
for their own needs or because the person that they're
doing it with has painted a different picture than the
actual reality right where the husband and the wife is like,
(06:54):
oh no, I'm we're separated or I'm leaving them, or no, no,
we're basically divorced, and when really at home that you
would think the complete opposite. So it's it's all just
it's selfish acts, manipulation, manipulation and selfishness, which I mean
is unfortunate. Did you say to them where we were
(07:16):
at like, did you say to them, oh, we're on
the brink of a divorce or when I was pregnant? Ah,
I don't remember. I don't think I ever said anything
like that because I have my own addictive, selfish reasons
(07:44):
I was doing things. But so, yeah, we were you
gonna say, Mark, I was gonna ask about that conversation.
Did she defend herself? Um? Did she was she? Um?
Did she regret her actions? She can try? Right? What
was her kind of general demeanor? Defensive? She one that
(08:11):
I talked to was just like so sorry. And then
the one other girl I talked to was who was
affected me the most because it was more times she
she didn't seem apologetic and it really really really upset me.
I wanted her to be. I wanted to feel her apology,
(08:35):
you know, and I didn't feel like she wasn't She
didn't even cry like she she was just like, I mean,
I knew you were pregnant, and I knew, like you know,
but like it wasn't anything. And I'm like, you can't
say it wasn't anything like that's just say you're sorry,
like show some empathy or something, you know. And granted,
was I nice, No, you know, I was angry and
(08:57):
I was mean and I said some really mean things.
I can own that, and but I think I was
getting angry because I wasn't getting any empathy. It was
just like just I don't even remember her even saying sorry.
And I think maybe that Han and me made it
(09:18):
worse because yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't. I don't know.
I mean, she just kind of blamed it on things,
and I'm like, again, I don't want to hear your story.
I just want you to say you're sorry. That's it.
I just need you to say you're sorry. And probably
the sorry one wouldn't have done anything for me in
(09:39):
the moment, but feeling like her sorry would have probably
helped me here a little bit, because I know it
wasn't just on her. I totally get that. But yeah,
I mean I have to commend you too for doing this,
for going through this, for doing this interview, for sitting
here for an hour. I mean, this is can just
(10:00):
Mike's body language. I mean, I know this is brutal
for both of you. I hope it's helpful for people
because I can tell you guys are really going to
struggle through this today. I appreciate it. And yeah, so
but again we'll make the most of it so people
can hopefully benefit from it because this is you know, yeah,
(10:26):
I just think the best thing is to remember is
like where we're at now, you know. But those you know,
those memories are they're deep, and they're down in the
depths of it, you know. So it's I think that's
why we fought the most during our book tour, was
because bringing up those things aren't easy, you know. Now, granted,
(10:47):
we do it because we want to help other people,
you know, but going to the depths of some of
the things that we talked about in the book and this,
it's like no wonder why, Like we were fighting those
two weeks the most we've fought, like entire quarantine because
we're talking about things that are really hard for both
of us for like seven hours a day. Yeah and yeah,
(11:10):
But you know, I think it's funny that when people
that have commented on whether this podcasts, are commented on
posts or commented on whatever, and they say or you know,
publications or news or whatever about us, and they say that,
(11:32):
why are why is the media wire so and so
still making these this couple relevant? They're just trying to
make money off of their problems. And it's just comical
to Jane and I because we're like, first of all,
where's the money because we don't see it, And two,
(11:54):
you know, that just goes to show they don't know us.
They're just making these false, you know, assumptions that that's
not who we are as people. Are genuine motivation to
talk about this stuff is to help those of you
who have gone through or are going through something similar
and to try to lessen the blow for people that
(12:16):
are going through this and not positively normalizing the conversation,
but normalizing it to a sense of you don't have
to live in secret. You can find ways to work
it out if you want to, if you choose to
and move past the pain. So hater's gonna hate. But
(12:37):
you know, because I think either way it's both sides,
like neither one of us wants to bring up the stuff.
But again, we've seen, you know, we've we've seen the
benefit of helping people, and you know, yeah, that's what
drives us. There was a someone that and I just
need to remind myself of this in you too, right now, um,
(13:01):
she goes. I wanted to drop and say thank you
the good Fight saving me and my marriage one chapter
at a time. And while I'm sure y'all hear this
all the time, I really, I really appreciate the bravery
and vulnerability that went into every page. I feel so
isolated in the loan, in my personal and marital struggles,
to the point of feeling paralyzed and expressing my feelings
and securities and doubts to my husband. Little did he know,
(13:22):
little did I know, he was feeling the same way.
And y'all have opened so many doors for us in
so many ways. We were learning and growing together in
such immeasurable bounds just by reading and meditating on Ya's
words each day. God was pulling at my heart to
read The Good Fight. And now I understand why so
thank you a million times for sharing your story with
the world. That's truly saved me. So I think remembering
those things that like it is helpful, even though some
(13:46):
people that don't understand our story don't understand why we
have guests like this, and I want to bring up
these feelings. But hopefully we've done enough therapy and have
enough tools at the end of this episode we can
let whatever feeling has come up and not be mean
and be angry and shame because I know I probably
would say some really mean things afterwards. But you know, anyways,
(14:13):
what's your feeling about Rachel before we get her own?
The hater honestly, and that's a really mean thing to say.
I don't know her, I don't like, but it's she's
the face of someone else I hate, and that's and
that's where it that's where I feel bad because I
don't know her story, you know. I mean, I know
(14:34):
that she lost them in a nine eleven and that's
terrible and I can't imagine how that's affected her. But yeah,
she's the face of someone I don't like, and so
it's going to be hard for me to take the
picture of who I'm picturing and see just her. If
that makes sense. You and Mike have gone through a
(14:55):
lot together and he's done a lot to work on himself.
Is there a benefit of the to be given to
her that she's done a lot to work on herself
over the past ten years and she's not the person
she once was? Didn't she wasn't? There an article that
just came out though, that she just broke up another marriage.
That's where I'm kind of like, you know that that well,
(15:18):
that's what I want to ask her because I'm interested.
You know, I think that I make up that could
be one of the situations because I read the article
and the wife was like completely blindsided by this where
he had to sat down, sit down as three step
kids they're all from her previous marriage, and basically tell
them like he's basically leaving and started secretly setting up
(15:41):
things and and moves to get out of there. And
then like beginning of December, he's like, all right, I'm out,
and she's like the wife said, wait, what the fuck?
And so I don't know if he had been telling
Rachel things like we're basically divorced, I don't I want
out anyway, They're not even my kids, you know. So
I don't know. Yeah and so, And that's that's where
(16:01):
I'm not. I'm not justifying people in her situation, whether
male or female. I'm just open to hearing their explanation.
Because if if you sat there and you met someone
and they told you, yeah, we're separated, barely even talk,
we're on our way out, papers are filed, you don't
(16:22):
know for sure. Well, I mean that's kind of our situation.
We were separated, and I you know, but I'm saying
if to you that was reality. But I'm saying if
at home, that was not at all the case. I see,
you know, so she's received that information, she's like, oh,
so he's available, he's he's just the paperwork has to
(16:43):
be processed. So maybe Mark, I don't know, you don't
know what I mean. That's all I'm saying is you
never know. And I get people. I mean, I have
people that reach out to that are women on the
other side that say they're the ones that cheated. And
again I've been unfaithful, but it hasn't been to a
married man, but um in past relationships. Um. But yeah,
(17:09):
so I get it happens. I get the heart wants
what the heart wants. UM. But I think because I've
been in a situation as the wife, that's where I
think it just hits a little harder personally for me
and for Mike. But for sure, I believe we should
take a break below the nose and get Rachel on
(17:43):
alrighty well, Rachel, um, thank you for coming on our
show with us and winding down and we already interred
you and you know, talked about some of the things
along your history and our history and shared open you know,
wounds that we've gone through in our relationship and uh,
to be you know, completely honest. It's triggering for us
(18:05):
to talk about some of the things we want to
talk about with you, um, you know, because of the
affairs I had on Jana and you know, this bringing
up you know, just triggers of her past and mind. UM.
So it's things personally that we're we have done a
lot of work around, um, individually and as a couple,
but we always like to talk about these not like
(18:27):
to we discuss these kind of things with our viewers
because we understand a lot of this isn't talked about
in a healthy way. And so having you on, we
wanted you to be able to express yourself and maybe
you know things that you've done and things that we
can expect from you coming up in the future, and
even what to hear from you on on the documentary
on HBO. Okay, well, thank you for having me on.
(18:49):
I really appreciate it. I'm um big fans of you guys.
I have followed you guys along your path and UM
and I respect what you guys have gone through, and UM,
I'm so glad see you guys sitting together and I
I'm so honored to be on your show. And out
(19:10):
of all the interviews that I'm doing, I have to
honestly say I, UM, I am most excited to be
sitting with you guys through this whole experience, like genuinely
because love addiction is what UM, I want to talk
about most like every month Tiger Woods and the fact
that I'm on the HBO documentary and blah blah blah. Um,
(19:31):
I want to mostly talk about my um journey with
love addiction and what that's done for me and why
That's gotten me in the most trouble in my life
and what I'm doing too, like survive through that and
how I want to help people like UM and the relationships, UM,
like my life and the trauma I've experienced my life
(19:54):
and why that's made me go from a relationship to
relationship and why I've been with men who have cheated
and blah blah blah. Anyways, the point is that I'm
happy to be here with you and here the interview
that I wanted to do the most. So thank you,
Thank you. We appreciate that. And I mean, use this
show as your platform, and we would love to hear
because we do talk about addiction obviously, Yeah, and I
(20:16):
and I identify as a love addict, so I do
understand that side too. Um. You know my twenties, that
was just catching the high and going from relationship to
relationship and getting that high and then once the high
was over, I would leave. And that's how kind of
my love addiction. UM. And you know, obviously the Mike
speaks about his addiction sex addiction as well, So I
mean we definitely understand that and and want to shed
more light on the love addiction because I think that's
(20:38):
not UM, people might not understand it as as as much. So, UM,
when did you um start to be like okay, like
this is this is a thing like and start identifying
that you are a love addict and seeing the patterns.
So I um was brought onto UM Celebrity Rehab with
(21:02):
Dr Drew in two thousand and ten and by v
H one, and I was like, Um, I'm not going
to do this show. I don't have any addictions. I
don't really drink, I don't you know, have a substance
of use edition and um, you know they were paying
me a lot of money to do it. I was
asked to do The Apprentice, and obviously my name was
(21:23):
in the press a lot from just a couple of
months before with the tiger thing, and um, they just figured.
I figured they wanted me on the show and they
were just looking for an addiction. And I sat down
with Dr Drew. He sat across the table from me.
My my name was all over the press, and he
looked at me and he said, Okay, stop, I want
you to come on the show, but it's because you
(21:44):
need help, and you can come on the show for
whatever you want, but you're a love adict. And I'm like,
why do you say that? He goes, you lost your father,
and you lost your father he died of a cocaine overdose.
This was the one man who's supposed to love you unconditionally.
You don't know what unconditional love is. Then ten years later,
your fiance was killed in the World Trade Center. This
(22:05):
was the one man you were supposed to have like
a future with and he was taken from you. And
then ten years later, the media you know, follows you
around and you are seeing as the quintessential homewrecking horror
mistress whatever, Like, how are you ever going to like
have a normal relationship with a man? And here you
(22:26):
are every your name is all over the place. You
are like a complete mess. Like you obviously have major
issues with understanding what unconditional love is. You're You're You're
not going to get through life unless you stick with
me for the next thirty days. So I went into
treatment with him and dealt with my love addiction issues,
and I sat down and understood that I mistake intensity
(22:51):
for love and that I basically don't date people that
I do this with, and like I don't date people
on a straight line. I don't date what he would
call boring, do you know what I mean? Like I
always date toxic people. I always do the push and pull.
I would like leave, you know, I would, or I would.
(23:13):
I would make people leave because I would want them
to prove that they were going to come back, or
that they were worthy or I was worthy. Or I
would pick people that were unattainable. I don't just mean married,
I just mean whatever the reason was that they were unattainable,
you know, um, and make them prove that they were
going to stay. And UM, you know I also, um,
(23:36):
you know, there was there was just many reasons. But
the love addiction was something that was brought up to
me by Dr Drew and and it ended up fitting
and UM, It's been something that has weaved through my life,
my entire life, and it's really affected me. It's made
me unable to be good at my job. It's been
unable at some point for me to parent, um, you know,
because it's really affected me. I've dated really horrible people
(23:59):
that have you know, affected my life in horrible, horrible ways.
UM to the fact where I've been in physical altercations
with men that I would never I mean, I would
look at my friends and I would see them get
beat up my boyfriends. I'd be like, how could you
stay in relationships? Like that and then that became me.
I was like, how did I become that person? You know?
And I would never think that that would become me?
(24:22):
And then I would go back to them and not
understand you know, um anyway, So how did it? How
did it feel? When Doctor Drew addressed that with you,
was like, you have issues like your love addict. Were
you like dismissive of it? Were you defensive about it?
Or was it something that resonated pretty immediately? Well? When
(24:42):
he said that to me, I was like, that's not
a thing. That is so dumb. I mean literally the
words that came out of my mouth were that is
so stupid. That is just a made up thing. Love
addiction is um sounds made up. Um. But then I
started to realize that it was the the signs were real,
(25:05):
um things. You know that I was constantly in love
with being in love and I would you know, I
think everyone knows someone that's a love at it. They're
like constantly in relationships with people, or they're like moving
in with someone they just met, or um, you know,
they're putting a bag over the person the reality of
(25:26):
the person that they just met, right. They don't want
to see the reality of the person UM that they
that they just met or that they even know, and
they don't want to see the real things. And then
when they do, um see the real signs, they like
want to dismiss it and uh. And then there's a
whole cycle of this and there becomes an anger when
(25:48):
you see the real um signs of the person and
they feel disappointed. And I think a lot of love
addicts are date sex addicts, and that becomes an issue
because there's a push and pull of that because sex
addicts are usually attracted to love addicts and love addicts
are attracted to sex addicts, and UM, there's a power
(26:09):
pull there and there's nothing wrong with that. I mean,
that's just what happens and UM, and there's a lot
of cheating that goes on. I mean, there's just a
natural cycle that happens and UM. And I think the
common bond is this, UM, there's an an intimacy thing
UM and no one wants to be left. But at
the same time, UM, you know, the sex addict doesn't
(26:33):
want the intimacy and the love addict wants the intimacy,
and so you have this huge explosion of problems. You know,
there's no question. I mean that that definitely resonates with us.
And like as a woman and you and you you're
open now about you know, being a love addict and
you're knowing you're understanding your story more. How has how
(26:53):
has the reception been? Because I know as a male, right,
like a lot of what I've heard is, oh, sex addiction,
that's a married man's disease. You know, from a woman's perspective,
how have you been? How has that been received? When
you've expressed to people, well, I'm a love addict, and
it's not an excuse of why you've done what you've done.
But what I tell Jan is it's an explanation of
some behaviors in your life. I think that like a
(27:16):
lot of people will say, the sex addict is the
man's problem and the love addict is a woman's problem.
Right that they're going to say that that's one or
the other, and I think that that's well or or
you know, the man will portray the woman and then
the man will try to use um sex addict addiction
and say, okay, well I'll just go to rehab for
(27:39):
sex addiction and I'm sorry, And then they come home
like they'll sort of blame it on that also and
then say okay, I'll come home. I mean there's a
very big truth to that that there that there is
an addiction. But I think a lot of men, I
mean listen, I know a lot of men will then
go off and do that and then come home as
(28:01):
a as an excuse, right, So I mean women do
it too though. I mean it's you know, a lot
of people cheap because they're just not happy at home.
And there's something to be said for marriage is hard, right,
You've got to make it work. There's a partnership. There's
a difference with me. I mean, I want to witness
to my life. There's something to be said for like
(28:22):
you too, you have a history. You you have there's
a bond there, that's a history and a knowledge. When
you go off with another woman, you don't know that woman.
You don't have an intimacy there. You don't know ins
and outs of what um she likes to eat and
drink and why she gets upset about the way she uh,
you know about things that are between the two of you.
(28:44):
Like you, guys have a bond and a life, a
history and a and a knowledge of what you guys
have there's an US that this other person doesn't have, right,
and that makes you guys and us and makes you special.
This other woman doesn't have that. She has a one
night and and I think that there's something so much
more in in the witness to your life than the
(29:08):
one night stand. Right. But that's what I want in
my life, and that's what like, that's where the connection
comes from. And um, that's what like the attraction of
being a relationship is, um and that's what I'm always
looking for. So these people that go off and have
these one night flings, it's um. You know. I think
(29:29):
that that's like a very empty thing to go off
to and what people have to remember that that's that
really becomes nothing. And hopefully you you realize that you
want the US and that you you that that becomes
what you strive for and that you work for, and
that marriage is is what you're striving for, and that
that's the healing that you want to work on. The US. Absolutely, yeah,
(29:56):
I mean, I'm I hear, I'm I hear all of that,
and I can definitely relate to some of it. Um.
I think I think what's like hardest in this situation
is um, like I never got I never got empathy
from one of his one of his main affair girls.
(30:17):
And I always wondered, like do they not think about
the wife? You know? And when you're in that situation,
like is it just are we just not thought about?
Because Michael saying it's like he's it's like it's a
very selfish act, like it's it's you know, it's you know,
he didn't think about me, you know. So it's like
(30:38):
is that just kind of because I want the women
out there that have been in my situation too, and
vice versa or the men or but like that, it's
um question, Can I ask you a question? Because I
didn't hear how you how you introde me, So I
have a really interesting question for you. What's your reaction
(30:59):
to something? And like me, then, well this is and
this is where I feel really bad because I was
like and I think my direct quote was as like
I hate her because but I don't hate you. I
hate his affair girls, but I label everybody that's cheated
on someone that girl, you know what I mean? But
I hear like hearing your story now, I'm like I
(31:21):
get it, Like I'm a love addict. I can understand,
like I can understand those things. Um, I think I
just have so much hate for his affair girls that
I when I the first thought of this is like, like,
I don't want to, you know, I don't want to
because I would you want to? Like why would you
want to interview me? Because I didn't even think of
(31:43):
that until you just said that, Like why would you
want to interview someone like me? When I'm someone to
you like who he's who he's cheated on you with.
I didn't think about that until you just said that.
But and I feel it didn't even occur to me
and I and that's a horrible thing to say. No,
And I'm sorry that because you know, it's rude to
(32:03):
say that I hate someone that I don't even know,
because people say that about us, they hate me. I
get people and you know, and that's really rude. And
I'm well, because you know people, people don't like people
for different reasons. But I want to apologize because I
should never have said I don't know you, you you know,
and I don't know your story and now I'm learning
(32:25):
your story. But I want to apologize because that's not
fair of me to label you for the face of
someone else, you know, because you have a story and
everyone has their story. Sorry this is but like, so
I'm I apologize for just straight up being like, now
I hate her. I don't that's she cheated. She's she's
(32:47):
the who cheated, probably with my husband, you know. So
I really am so sorry for just not getting to
know your story before I passed judgment, because I'm sure
you've gotten that judgment from a lot of people. So
that's why I did the documentary because I go through
life with people hating me like I did something personally
(33:08):
to them and personally hurt them, personally, offended them, personally,
did something to them with such a vengeance. They hate
me with a passion when I did nothing to them personally.
And you're the first person that like has caused because
(33:29):
your husband did something similar, right, and like that's still
not right, no, but like no, but you're the first
person that like we're having this conversation that like I
get it because your husband like literally did something and
and it makes sense though, right, so I get it,
and I feel and I but I feel like I
(33:50):
know why you have that hatred, right, And I feel horrible.
I feel I feel horrible, but you have to realize
I didn't do it to you. And I've had I've
had to feel hatred like your hatred of me for
ten years. And I didn't do that to you. I
did it for someone else, and I feel horrible, but
(34:11):
I didn't do it to you, and I hope you
realize that. And I'm sorry that you hate I didn't
do it to you, though, And I'm your husband, thank you.
I've all I've always loved you, but I would never
keep you know like I didn't do it to you.
So I just want you to know that. And I'm
sorry for the mistakes that your husband made. I I
(34:33):
would hope like I'm in support of you, guys. I
want you to know that I support you guys so much.
I hope that, I really hope that your husband doesn't
make mistakes like that again. I hope. I want you
guys to succeed so much. I'm there for you guys
so much, and I want you guys to succeed. But
I didn't make that mistake, and and I just want
(34:55):
you to know that, and I and I and I
do and I appreciate you saying that. I think it's
a huge lesson for women that have been cheated on
or vice versa, to know that it's not um, just
because someone else did doesn't mean that they're a bad person.
Or again saying like, because you didn't do that to me,
you were the you're the face and the story of
(35:15):
what you know, but you're not the person. You're not
You're not You're not them. And um, and I can't
imagine living those years with so many people just hating
on you and not getting to know you because I
make up. But that's exhausting and it's it's it's hurtful
(35:38):
and um yeah, I and I just because of um,
of a feeling you had with someone that you loved
or liked or whatever. So you know, I am, I
am sorry about that. I can't imagine that. I bet
that's really hard. Yeah. Well, and I you know it's
and again I I I'm so sorry. And you know
(36:01):
I would hope I'm sorry to hear that she wasn't apathetic. Yeah, yeah,
I agree. Totally sucks and you should make her apologize
by the way, Um well, I guess we shouldn't. We
shouldn't talk to her anymore, so she sucks, um um.
(36:21):
But that's not how she should have handled it. Quite frankly.
I mean, I don't know anything about her, so um,
but she should feel sorry she but you know, anyway,
we won't talk about her anymore. UM. Mike's like, thank god,
moving on, okay, sorry, no, you're good, Rachel. We've gotten
this question a lot from people about how are we
going to talk to our kids when they get of
(36:41):
age with things? And we know you have a daughter
who's ten eight. I'm sorry, UM, how have you have
you addressed things with her? What are your plans to
or you know kind of things are around that. UM,
I haven't, but you know she for example, today she
just saw uh an ad for like the Tiger the
(37:03):
Tiger doc and she she mentioned it. So she's smart enough.
She's also you know, she's been alive for all of this,
meaning she's seen paparazzi follow me. She's she's been alive
for all of this. She's never mentioned anything to me
or said anything, um, directly, but she's always been around
(37:25):
for it. So when she sees paparazzi outside, she lifts
her mask up. She's but she's never directly said anything.
At some point I'll have to address something with her.
But I always just try to um raise her the
best way I can try to give her the best
skills that I know how, UM, I don't know, I
(37:45):
don't know how to answer that with her, but UM,
I will definitely UM relationships will will definitely be something
that is important to bring up with her and UM.
You know, I've definitely had a horrible history with her
dad and me, so UM making sure I talked to
her about relationships with UM. Boys will be something that
(38:08):
I definitely talked to her about, like as she starts
to get interested in boys or whatever it is, you know,
Like I make sure that she is careful about her picker.
I want I had a horrible picker, you know, and
I want to make sure that she has a good one,
you know, and that she's picking the right friends and
the right people because growing up is hard. Having the
(38:28):
right girlfriends is hard, you know. UM people can be mean,
and I'm really protective of her, UM I you know,
UH people are horrible to me still, and so I
want to make sure that I um um um UM
teaching her right UM skills, that she's not a bully,
that no one's a bully to her. And that, um,
(38:50):
whatever happens to me, I have fixed it skin and
nothing is trickling down on her, you know, just kind
of impairing the similar similarities you and I have. I
was also an abusive relationship and even after he tried
to kill me, I went back and slept with him
that night, Like just that that addiction with with love.
(39:11):
And you know, a lot of people ask me like,
do do I have regrets with some of the relationships
that I that I've been in, And I'm like, well, no,
because you know, it's it's made me a stronger person,
or I've learned so much about myself. And granted, I'm
sure for you it's like, yeah, I would you have
wanted to have all the scrutiny the last however many years,
(39:32):
So I mean maybe you might have regrets, but at
the same time, now you're able to identify this love
addiction and then and then be able to have a
healthy relationship moving forward. So is that do you feel
the kind of the same way or or are you like, no,
I regret this or we always have regrets, right, but
you always learn when you fall. Now you want to
(39:54):
fall forward, right, so you try and say, oh, Okay, Well,
I'm glad I had these mistakes because every broken road
leads you to the next road forward, right, So I mean,
do I wish my life changed in the past. I
mean no, because I'm glad about who I am, because
I don't want to change anything about me, because now
(40:16):
I have every tool I have to move forward. I think.
I know I'm a really smart person and the most
resourceful person. I know. I could get through any situation,
uh that you asked me to by myself. I don't
need anyone to rely on. And I could literally get
myself out of any situation and figure it out and
move forward. And it's from every lesson that I've been through.
(40:39):
Um and I can handle it. I haven't not. I
figured out how to attack anything, you know, by myself.
So I'm happy that I've been to everything. I mean,
there are people I know that haven't been through divorces, tragedies, chaos, situation.
I could literally juggle everything. So do I want to
go through it again? No? But I'm happy that I've
(41:01):
experienced or touched everything so far. Um. Am I going
to fall or make a mistake again? Probably? Do I
want to be shamed again for it? No, I prefer
not to, but I'm sure I will. Um. I'd like
to have some real friends around me going forward. I
don't have a lot of those right now. It would
be nice to find some good friends and be nice
(41:23):
to find a nice man in my life. Would be
nice to get married and have been nice to have
a witness to my life and feel whole and uh,
you know, I'm forty five years old. I'd like to
feel happy. You know, it's really hard to find happiness
and feel like you have something to look forward to.
And like everyone else, you know, i'd like to you know, uh,
find some fulfillment in my life. Is not what we're
(41:45):
all striving for. I mean, I don't know, um what
what's one thing like for our listeners that they want
to they you want them to take away with your story,
like who you are? Like who is the real Rachel.
I've like them to watch the documentary on Sunday night.
If they haven't seen the first part it was last Sunday,
you can go on HBO Max and watch it, and
(42:07):
then I'd like you to watch it this Sunday, like
you guys to watch it. I think I think it's
really interesting, but I'd like you to know that the
media presents a picture of people, and they blame people,
and they make a story out of things that aren't
necessarily facts. And there's things that happened, and then there's
a story that happens after that, and it's not necessarily true,
(42:28):
and there are people that go with it. And everyone
has to put their head down at night and put
the legs out and go to sleep on a pillow.
And they're people involved, and you know, have a little empathy.
And I've been low, I've been down here, so now
I have empathy for others, and I wish other people
would have empathy for others too. UM. So you know, uh,
(42:49):
that's all. I just wish the people would realize. I'm
I'm like you, um, like everyone else, and I'm not
out to steal anyone's husband. I'm you know, I like
to find my own husband. I would like to be
friends with you, guys. I want the best for other people. Um.
You know, sometimes there are assholes out there, so I
(43:09):
get nasty with people too, just like I'm sure if
I want to text to you guys, you're like, you know,
you know, but but beyond that, I just you know,
I want to have you know, I have my daughter,
I have you know. I'm just trying my best and
we're all trying to get through the pandemic and figure
out life. And um, i'd like to see you make
more music. I love your country music like you know. Um,
(43:32):
you know that's it. I just I just want to
be happy. Well, we hope a little less anger and
nastiness in the world, yes, please, Well, definitely, we hope
the best for you, Rachel, And we appreciate your vulnerability
and your willingness to come on and talk to us
about such a difficult subject for you know, for all
of us to talk about and for listeners to hear.
But again, we appreciate you sharing your your true story,
(43:53):
and we hope nothing but the best for you moving forward,
and then you can get out of this cloud of
shame and that people continue to put you in. So again,
like you just said, you're a human being too, and
you deserve empathy just like everyone else does. So we
wish nothing by the best. And I'm sorry that I yeah,
I just want to say I'm sorry again that I, Um,
I did what I always hate that people do. Form
(44:14):
like I didn't get to know you before, you know,
I would never say what I said in the beginning. Um,
now knowing you, so I just I'm thank you for
giving us the opportunity to get to know you. I'm
excited to watch Tiger on HBO Max and whenever you're
in Nasha, let me know. Thank you. And I just
wanted to say I really hope the best for the
two of you, and um, I am so honored to
(44:36):
have been on your program, and thank you so much
for giving me the opportunity to have your forgiveness. So
I really do want the best for you. Thank you
so much. I appreciate it. Have a good one, take care. Yeah,
(45:01):
we're alive him Mark Danielle. Everyone thought, Hi guys, I
think that went well. Yeah. Yeah, I mean I'm proud
of you. Yeah. I had so much anxiety because I
felt terrible when she's like, what did you say about me?
And I was like, oh my god, I said I
hated her, but I did. She was her face wasn't there,
(45:23):
you know, And that's just to show that, like, yeah,
I mean it's a show that well, that just goes
to show like how much like when someone goes through pain,
like that amount of pain, how it. It inhibits your
judgment of somebody like it just it plagues your opinion
on people on another human being because of the pain
(45:46):
that you still hold in the trauma around it. So
that's that anybody going through that kind of trauma would
would No one can fault you. But also the people
that didn't go through it hater toot. I'm sure there's
people that hat they make up like, oh, she's just
a white stealer, you know. So it's like and I
always say, like for us, like, I know people hate me,
(46:08):
but get to know me first, then say you hate me,
you know, because you can't. Bet you can't. You'll wear
someone down, you will like me. So you know I
did what I always hate people due to us and so,
but Mark, would you think? I thought it was great
And I really love the honesty on everybody's part. I
(46:28):
love that you told her that I said you hated her.
I thought that was real because I'm sure she gets
that a lot. I'm sure she appreciated the opportunity to
take someone who hates her in respond to Yeah, respond
to health was really good in a healthy way. Yeah.
I thought it was very raw and very real. I
just have like I feel like I have an elephant
sitting on my chest. It's just like or it's like
(46:50):
like that exact that anxiety. You know. Sure, well, I'm
proud of you and how you handled it, and I'm
sorry for the triggers that came up, but I'm sorry
for YouTube. I know it's not easy for you your
side as well. But I think you know, this was
good for maybe two people to hear so they can
take maybe that anger, that pain that they have towards
(47:11):
the third party or towards their significant other and if
it didn't even happen to you, just in general, and
like that person's or whatever right and is realized that
they're still a human being and they have their own, yeah,
and their own issues. And you don't know the whole story.
You don't. I mean to lose someone in nine eleven,
to lose her father to this, like it's not an excuse,
but like Michael says, it's an explanation. Yes, it can
(47:31):
explain a lot of your actions throughout your life. Oh,
I was researching while we were talking to you you on
the picture of her on the cover of the New
York Post right after nine eleven holding the picture of
her missing husband. I mean it's hard not Yeah, it's
hard not to feel for her when you see that photo. Agreed.
Oh man, I can't even. Um, I actually do want
(47:52):
to watch Tiger because I like Tiger, even though I've
said some things you know about them as well, but
he's yeah, I want to watch it. I want to
watch her out at Me and Rachel are busties. So um, yeah,
I'm excited. Everyone watched Tiger on HBO, HBO Max, HBO Max,
(48:13):
and uh we have yeah, we have a really amazing
few episodes coming up. Uh Steven, oh my god, I'm
a prema scene. Stephen Colletti and James Lafferty are going
to be coming up soon on the next few episodes.
So um, stay tuned, and thanks for getting through that
(48:36):
podcast with those guys. We did it together. We did
it together. We hope it helps. Okay, let's go make
love baby bye.
Wind Down and I'm her radio podcast. Hey guys, welcome
to another episode of wine Down. I'm so excited, said
no one ever. That's such a trigger because that song bombed,
said no one ever. It's still a fun song. Yeah. Um,
(00:22):
we have an interesting podcast today. By the way, that
was an interesting start. We can cut it. I was
just trying to get it to give you something. Um,
we have an interesting podcast today. We have Rachel you
could tell on today. Um, she is one of tigers
and mistresses Tiger Woods. Yes, I feel like he comments
(00:47):
like a one nam or. It's like Oprah. You never know.
Our listeners are primarily the other tiger our our listeners
are primarily female. Who's the other tiger? Was King? Okay, yeah,
see exactly there's the only one tiger Tiger King. Who's that? Oh?
(01:08):
I mean I would say, who's the what's the guy's name? Jo? Exotic? Um?
But anyways, so this is going to be interesting. I yeah,
all right, here's the scoop. This is gonna suck for
Jane and I. It's gonna be triggering, it's going to
(01:32):
be uncomfortable, but y'all love that. So you're welcome. You're
welcome and no, So we're gonna talk to her. We're
gonna ask you some questions that might even make you,
as a listener, squirm. It's gonna sure as he'll make
us squirm. Um. But you know, I here's the thing is,
(01:52):
at the end of the at the end of the day,
Janna and I know we're in a better place now
than we have been for years in the past, and
we're going to still be professional about it and address
address things and you know, make the most of it
just for you know, a learning situation for all of us. Yeah,
(02:13):
I mean, I yeah, I mean it's it stinks because
of course things come up and things. It's and I
think one of the things that I have a hard
time with is like, oh, why are we you know,
dragging Mike through the mud again or bringing it back up.
But it's like, this is this is our story. Unfortunately,
this one's going to bring up our story a little
bit more. Um. But it just it sucks for both
(02:36):
of us, sucks for you, it sucks for me. Um.
But I feel like it's interesting because I remember I
had a conversation since we're going there, let's just go
there completely. I had a conversation with one of your
fair girls, And I remember asking her, did you not
(02:56):
even think about me? Like even after you found out
who I was and I was pregnant and I was married,
like you didn't like And that's my that's my issue
with girls like Rachel, did you not think of me?
The wife? And like how that would gut me? Like
I understand, no, I know, And it's the same thing
(03:19):
for the husband, like why didn't you think of me too?
You know, I know it's two people to tango and
it's not just her fault, and it's not just Tiger's fault,
it's both of them. You know, it's equally their faults.
But you know, I know that's the same question, like
why wouldn't you think of me? But then the woman too,
I'm like, you're a woman, Like don't you know that
(03:41):
you're killing another woman right now? What do you think
my st mark coming on? Well, I feel like there
is a tendency sometimes and I'm not sure what the
psychological element that this is, but it does seem to
be a tendency to blame the woman almost more than
the man in some of these situations. I'm not talking
about your situation specifically, but does seem like she she
(04:02):
receives the ire, the the real anger goes to her
where he's just a dumb guy who did a stupid thing.
But women need to stick together. How can they betray
each other like that? No, I totally hear you on that.
I mean, I I feel like I equally um killed
both of you in the situation. But um, no, I
(04:23):
do think the woman gets a bad a worserain name.
I mean, Tiger can move on and he can go
to winning championships again, and this girl has the scarlet
letter UM on her, So that that sucks, I think
as a as a woman. But um, you know, I
(04:44):
I don't know. I don't know why. Like I mean,
I know, I remember obviously getting upset with you, but
when I talked to your one affair, it's like that's
just what I couldn't understand because I'm just like I
wanted her to say that she did think of me,
that she did feel sorry, you know, and I don't
(05:04):
know if there's the empathy there, you know, and it
felt like such a so I don't know. So I
remember leaving that conversation and just hating how that conversation went.
And so that's where I feel like it might come
up super triggering for me because it's just she represents
all the women that I was like, you know, but
(05:26):
I hate that. You know, I've had to work past
and I know at the end of the day, it
has nothing to do with you know, me, or it's
just it's just a situation. But yeah, I was just
gonna say, you know, it's I can totally understand that,
(05:46):
like because women, you know, there is that that almost
expectation of women unity, unity against you know, against men
getting you know, we gotta have each other's back and
all that, and and a guy doing is just an
asshole doing it. And you know, I think the minder
(06:12):
that I have is just being someone in that situation,
whether it mail or whether it's the woman or the male,
neither one of them are thinking about anybody else. Infidelity
is a selfish act being with someone who's taken as
a selfish act. So it's you know that questions asked
like how could you not think of the wife? How
(06:33):
could you not think of of his kids or whatever? Well,
the truth is they're not because they're thinking selfishly, whether
for their own needs or because the person that they're
doing it with has painted a different picture than the
actual reality right where the husband and the wife is like,
(06:54):
oh no, I'm we're separated or I'm leaving them, or no, no,
we're basically divorced, and when really at home that you
would think the complete opposite. So it's it's all just
it's selfish acts, manipulation, manipulation and selfishness, which I mean
is unfortunate. Did you say to them where we were
(07:16):
at like, did you say to them, oh, we're on
the brink of a divorce or when I was pregnant? Ah,
I don't remember. I don't think I ever said anything
like that because I have my own addictive, selfish reasons
(07:44):
I was doing things. But so, yeah, we were you
gonna say, Mark, I was gonna ask about that conversation.
Did she defend herself? Um? Did she was she? Um?
Did she regret her actions? She can try? Right? What
was her kind of general demeanor? Defensive? She one that
(08:11):
I talked to was just like so sorry. And then
the one other girl I talked to was who was
affected me the most because it was more times she
she didn't seem apologetic and it really really really upset me.
I wanted her to be. I wanted to feel her apology,
(08:35):
you know, and I didn't feel like she wasn't She
didn't even cry like she she was just like, I mean,
I knew you were pregnant, and I knew, like you know,
but like it wasn't anything. And I'm like, you can't
say it wasn't anything like that's just say you're sorry,
like show some empathy or something, you know. And granted,
was I nice, No, you know, I was angry and
(08:57):
I was mean and I said some really mean things.
I can own that, and but I think I was
getting angry because I wasn't getting any empathy. It was
just like just I don't even remember her even saying sorry.
And I think maybe that Han and me made it
(09:18):
worse because yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't. I don't know.
I mean, she just kind of blamed it on things,
and I'm like, again, I don't want to hear your story.
I just want you to say you're sorry. That's it.
I just need you to say you're sorry. And probably
the sorry one wouldn't have done anything for me in
(09:39):
the moment, but feeling like her sorry would have probably
helped me here a little bit, because I know it
wasn't just on her. I totally get that. But yeah,
I mean I have to commend you too for doing this,
for going through this, for doing this interview, for sitting
here for an hour. I mean, this is can just
(10:00):
Mike's body language. I mean, I know this is brutal
for both of you. I hope it's helpful for people
because I can tell you guys are really going to
struggle through this today. I appreciate it. And yeah, so
but again we'll make the most of it so people
can hopefully benefit from it because this is you know, yeah,
(10:26):
I just think the best thing is to remember is
like where we're at now, you know. But those you know,
those memories are they're deep, and they're down in the
depths of it, you know. So it's I think that's
why we fought the most during our book tour, was
because bringing up those things aren't easy, you know. Now, granted,
(10:47):
we do it because we want to help other people,
you know, but going to the depths of some of
the things that we talked about in the book and this,
it's like no wonder why, Like we were fighting those
two weeks the most we've fought, like entire quarantine because
we're talking about things that are really hard for both
of us for like seven hours a day. Yeah and yeah,
(11:10):
But you know, I think it's funny that when people
that have commented on whether this podcasts, are commented on
posts or commented on whatever, and they say or you know,
publications or news or whatever about us, and they say that,
(11:32):
why are why is the media wire so and so
still making these this couple relevant? They're just trying to
make money off of their problems. And it's just comical
to Jane and I because we're like, first of all,
where's the money because we don't see it, And two,
(11:54):
you know, that just goes to show they don't know us.
They're just making these false, you know, assumptions that that's
not who we are as people. Are genuine motivation to
talk about this stuff is to help those of you
who have gone through or are going through something similar
and to try to lessen the blow for people that
(12:16):
are going through this and not positively normalizing the conversation,
but normalizing it to a sense of you don't have
to live in secret. You can find ways to work
it out if you want to, if you choose to
and move past the pain. So hater's gonna hate. But
(12:37):
you know, because I think either way it's both sides,
like neither one of us wants to bring up the stuff.
But again, we've seen, you know, we've we've seen the
benefit of helping people, and you know, yeah, that's what
drives us. There was a someone that and I just
need to remind myself of this in you too, right now, um,
(13:01):
she goes. I wanted to drop and say thank you
the good Fight saving me and my marriage one chapter
at a time. And while I'm sure y'all hear this
all the time, I really, I really appreciate the bravery
and vulnerability that went into every page. I feel so
isolated in the loan, in my personal and marital struggles,
to the point of feeling paralyzed and expressing my feelings
and securities and doubts to my husband. Little did he know,
(13:22):
little did I know, he was feeling the same way.
And y'all have opened so many doors for us in
so many ways. We were learning and growing together in
such immeasurable bounds just by reading and meditating on Ya's
words each day. God was pulling at my heart to
read The Good Fight. And now I understand why so
thank you a million times for sharing your story with
the world. That's truly saved me. So I think remembering
those things that like it is helpful, even though some
(13:46):
people that don't understand our story don't understand why we
have guests like this, and I want to bring up
these feelings. But hopefully we've done enough therapy and have
enough tools at the end of this episode we can
let whatever feeling has come up and not be mean
and be angry and shame because I know I probably
would say some really mean things afterwards. But you know, anyways,
(14:13):
what's your feeling about Rachel before we get her own?
The hater honestly, and that's a really mean thing to say.
I don't know her, I don't like, but it's she's
the face of someone else I hate, and that's and
that's where it that's where I feel bad because I
don't know her story, you know. I mean, I know
(14:34):
that she lost them in a nine eleven and that's
terrible and I can't imagine how that's affected her. But yeah,
she's the face of someone I don't like, and so
it's going to be hard for me to take the
picture of who I'm picturing and see just her. If
that makes sense. You and Mike have gone through a
(14:55):
lot together and he's done a lot to work on himself.
Is there a benefit of the to be given to
her that she's done a lot to work on herself
over the past ten years and she's not the person
she once was? Didn't she wasn't? There an article that
just came out though, that she just broke up another marriage.
That's where I'm kind of like, you know that that well,
(15:18):
that's what I want to ask her because I'm interested.
You know, I think that I make up that could
be one of the situations because I read the article
and the wife was like completely blindsided by this where
he had to sat down, sit down as three step
kids they're all from her previous marriage, and basically tell
them like he's basically leaving and started secretly setting up
(15:41):
things and and moves to get out of there. And
then like beginning of December, he's like, all right, I'm out,
and she's like the wife said, wait, what the fuck?
And so I don't know if he had been telling
Rachel things like we're basically divorced, I don't I want
out anyway, They're not even my kids, you know. So
I don't know. Yeah and so, And that's that's where
(16:01):
I'm not. I'm not justifying people in her situation, whether
male or female. I'm just open to hearing their explanation.
Because if if you sat there and you met someone
and they told you, yeah, we're separated, barely even talk,
we're on our way out, papers are filed, you don't
(16:22):
know for sure. Well, I mean that's kind of our situation.
We were separated, and I you know, but I'm saying
if to you that was reality. But I'm saying if
at home, that was not at all the case. I see,
you know, so she's received that information, she's like, oh,
so he's available, he's he's just the paperwork has to
(16:43):
be processed. So maybe Mark, I don't know, you don't
know what I mean. That's all I'm saying is you
never know. And I get people. I mean, I have
people that reach out to that are women on the
other side that say they're the ones that cheated. And
again I've been unfaithful, but it hasn't been to a
married man, but um in past relationships. Um. But yeah,
(17:09):
so I get it happens. I get the heart wants
what the heart wants. UM. But I think because I've
been in a situation as the wife, that's where I
think it just hits a little harder personally for me
and for Mike. But for sure, I believe we should
take a break below the nose and get Rachel on
(17:43):
alrighty well, Rachel, um, thank you for coming on our
show with us and winding down and we already interred
you and you know, talked about some of the things
along your history and our history and shared open you know,
wounds that we've gone through in our relationship and uh,
to be you know, completely honest. It's triggering for us
(18:05):
to talk about some of the things we want to
talk about with you, um, you know, because of the
affairs I had on Jana and you know, this bringing
up you know, just triggers of her past and mind. UM.
So it's things personally that we're we have done a
lot of work around, um, individually and as a couple,
but we always like to talk about these not like
(18:27):
to we discuss these kind of things with our viewers
because we understand a lot of this isn't talked about
in a healthy way. And so having you on, we
wanted you to be able to express yourself and maybe
you know things that you've done and things that we
can expect from you coming up in the future, and
even what to hear from you on on the documentary
on HBO. Okay, well, thank you for having me on.
(18:49):
I really appreciate it. I'm um big fans of you guys.
I have followed you guys along your path and UM
and I respect what you guys have gone through, and UM,
I'm so glad see you guys sitting together and I
I'm so honored to be on your show. And out
(19:10):
of all the interviews that I'm doing, I have to
honestly say I, UM, I am most excited to be
sitting with you guys through this whole experience, like genuinely
because love addiction is what UM, I want to talk
about most like every month Tiger Woods and the fact
that I'm on the HBO documentary and blah blah blah. Um,
(19:31):
I want to mostly talk about my um journey with
love addiction and what that's done for me and why
That's gotten me in the most trouble in my life
and what I'm doing too, like survive through that and
how I want to help people like UM and the relationships, UM,
like my life and the trauma I've experienced my life
(19:54):
and why that's made me go from a relationship to
relationship and why I've been with men who have cheated
and blah blah blah. Anyways, the point is that I'm
happy to be here with you and here the interview
that I wanted to do the most. So thank you,
Thank you. We appreciate that. And I mean, use this
show as your platform, and we would love to hear
because we do talk about addiction obviously, Yeah, and I
(20:16):
and I identify as a love addict, so I do
understand that side too. Um. You know my twenties, that
was just catching the high and going from relationship to
relationship and getting that high and then once the high
was over, I would leave. And that's how kind of
my love addiction. UM. And you know, obviously the Mike
speaks about his addiction sex addiction as well, So I
mean we definitely understand that and and want to shed
more light on the love addiction because I think that's
(20:38):
not UM, people might not understand it as as as much. So, UM,
when did you um start to be like okay, like
this is this is a thing like and start identifying
that you are a love addict and seeing the patterns.
So I um was brought onto UM Celebrity Rehab with
(21:02):
Dr Drew in two thousand and ten and by v
H one, and I was like, Um, I'm not going
to do this show. I don't have any addictions. I
don't really drink, I don't you know, have a substance
of use edition and um, you know they were paying
me a lot of money to do it. I was
asked to do The Apprentice, and obviously my name was
(21:23):
in the press a lot from just a couple of
months before with the tiger thing, and um, they just figured.
I figured they wanted me on the show and they
were just looking for an addiction. And I sat down
with Dr Drew. He sat across the table from me.
My my name was all over the press, and he
looked at me and he said, Okay, stop, I want
you to come on the show, but it's because you
(21:44):
need help, and you can come on the show for
whatever you want, but you're a love adict. And I'm like,
why do you say that? He goes, you lost your father,
and you lost your father he died of a cocaine overdose.
This was the one man who's supposed to love you unconditionally.
You don't know what unconditional love is. Then ten years later,
your fiance was killed in the World Trade Center. This
(22:05):
was the one man you were supposed to have like
a future with and he was taken from you. And
then ten years later, the media you know, follows you
around and you are seeing as the quintessential homewrecking horror
mistress whatever, Like, how are you ever going to like
have a normal relationship with a man? And here you
(22:26):
are every your name is all over the place. You
are like a complete mess. Like you obviously have major
issues with understanding what unconditional love is. You're You're You're
not going to get through life unless you stick with
me for the next thirty days. So I went into
treatment with him and dealt with my love addiction issues,
and I sat down and understood that I mistake intensity
(22:51):
for love and that I basically don't date people that
I do this with, and like I don't date people
on a straight line. I don't date what he would
call boring, do you know what I mean? Like I
always date toxic people. I always do the push and pull.
I would like leave, you know, I would, or I would.
(23:13):
I would make people leave because I would want them
to prove that they were going to come back, or
that they were worthy or I was worthy. Or I
would pick people that were unattainable. I don't just mean married,
I just mean whatever the reason was that they were unattainable,
you know, um, and make them prove that they were
going to stay. And UM, you know I also, um,
(23:36):
you know, there was there was just many reasons. But
the love addiction was something that was brought up to
me by Dr Drew and and it ended up fitting
and UM, It's been something that has weaved through my life,
my entire life, and it's really affected me. It's made
me unable to be good at my job. It's been
unable at some point for me to parent, um, you know,
because it's really affected me. I've dated really horrible people
(23:59):
that have you know, affected my life in horrible, horrible ways.
UM to the fact where I've been in physical altercations
with men that I would never I mean, I would
look at my friends and I would see them get
beat up my boyfriends. I'd be like, how could you
stay in relationships? Like that and then that became me.
I was like, how did I become that person? You know?
And I would never think that that would become me?
(24:22):
And then I would go back to them and not
understand you know, um anyway, So how did it? How
did it feel? When Doctor Drew addressed that with you,
was like, you have issues like your love addict. Were
you like dismissive of it? Were you defensive about it?
Or was it something that resonated pretty immediately? Well? When
(24:42):
he said that to me, I was like, that's not
a thing. That is so dumb. I mean literally the
words that came out of my mouth were that is
so stupid. That is just a made up thing. Love
addiction is um sounds made up. Um. But then I
started to realize that it was the the signs were real,
(25:05):
um things. You know that I was constantly in love
with being in love and I would you know, I
think everyone knows someone that's a love at it. They're
like constantly in relationships with people, or they're like moving
in with someone they just met, or um, you know,
they're putting a bag over the person the reality of
(25:26):
the person that they just met, right. They don't want
to see the reality of the person UM that they
that they just met or that they even know, and
they don't want to see the real things. And then
when they do, um see the real signs, they like
want to dismiss it and uh. And then there's a
whole cycle of this and there becomes an anger when
(25:48):
you see the real um signs of the person and
they feel disappointed. And I think a lot of love
addicts are date sex addicts, and that becomes an issue
because there's a push and pull of that because sex
addicts are usually attracted to love addicts and love addicts
are attracted to sex addicts, and UM, there's a power
(26:09):
pull there and there's nothing wrong with that. I mean,
that's just what happens and UM, and there's a lot
of cheating that goes on. I mean, there's just a
natural cycle that happens and UM. And I think the
common bond is this, UM, there's an an intimacy thing
UM and no one wants to be left. But at
the same time, UM, you know, the sex addict doesn't
(26:33):
want the intimacy and the love addict wants the intimacy,
and so you have this huge explosion of problems. You know,
there's no question. I mean that that definitely resonates with us.
And like as a woman and you and you you're
open now about you know, being a love addict and
you're knowing you're understanding your story more. How has how
(26:53):
has the reception been? Because I know as a male, right,
like a lot of what I've heard is, oh, sex addiction,
that's a married man's disease. You know, from a woman's perspective,
how have you been? How has that been received? When
you've expressed to people, well, I'm a love addict, and
it's not an excuse of why you've done what you've done.
But what I tell Jan is it's an explanation of
some behaviors in your life. I think that like a
(27:16):
lot of people will say, the sex addict is the
man's problem and the love addict is a woman's problem.
Right that they're going to say that that's one or
the other, and I think that that's well or or
you know, the man will portray the woman and then
the man will try to use um sex addict addiction
and say, okay, well I'll just go to rehab for
(27:39):
sex addiction and I'm sorry, And then they come home
like they'll sort of blame it on that also and
then say okay, I'll come home. I mean there's a
very big truth to that that there that there is
an addiction. But I think a lot of men, I
mean listen, I know a lot of men will then
go off and do that and then come home as
(28:01):
a as an excuse, right, So I mean women do
it too though. I mean it's you know, a lot
of people cheap because they're just not happy at home.
And there's something to be said for marriage is hard, right,
You've got to make it work. There's a partnership. There's
a difference with me. I mean, I want to witness
to my life. There's something to be said for like
(28:22):
you too, you have a history. You you have there's
a bond there, that's a history and a knowledge. When
you go off with another woman, you don't know that woman.
You don't have an intimacy there. You don't know ins
and outs of what um she likes to eat and
drink and why she gets upset about the way she uh,
you know about things that are between the two of you.
(28:44):
Like you, guys have a bond and a life, a
history and a and a knowledge of what you guys
have there's an US that this other person doesn't have, right,
and that makes you guys and us and makes you special.
This other woman doesn't have that. She has a one
night and and I think that there's something so much
more in in the witness to your life than the
(29:08):
one night stand. Right. But that's what I want in
my life, and that's what like, that's where the connection
comes from. And um, that's what like the attraction of
being a relationship is, um and that's what I'm always
looking for. So these people that go off and have
these one night flings, it's um. You know. I think
(29:29):
that that's like a very empty thing to go off
to and what people have to remember that that's that
really becomes nothing. And hopefully you you realize that you
want the US and that you you that that becomes
what you strive for and that you work for, and
that marriage is is what you're striving for, and that
that's the healing that you want to work on. The US. Absolutely, yeah,
(29:56):
I mean, I'm I hear, I'm I hear all of that,
and I can definitely relate to some of it. Um.
I think I think what's like hardest in this situation
is um, like I never got I never got empathy
from one of his one of his main affair girls.
(30:17):
And I always wondered, like do they not think about
the wife? You know? And when you're in that situation,
like is it just are we just not thought about?
Because Michael saying it's like he's it's like it's a
very selfish act, like it's it's you know, it's you know,
he didn't think about me, you know. So it's like
(30:38):
is that just kind of because I want the women
out there that have been in my situation too, and
vice versa or the men or but like that, it's
um question, Can I ask you a question? Because I
didn't hear how you how you introde me, So I
have a really interesting question for you. What's your reaction
(30:59):
to something? And like me, then, well this is and
this is where I feel really bad because I was
like and I think my direct quote was as like
I hate her because but I don't hate you. I
hate his affair girls, but I label everybody that's cheated
on someone that girl, you know what I mean? But
I hear like hearing your story now, I'm like I
(31:21):
get it, Like I'm a love addict. I can understand,
like I can understand those things. Um, I think I
just have so much hate for his affair girls that
I when I the first thought of this is like, like,
I don't want to, you know, I don't want to
because I would you want to? Like why would you
want to interview me? Because I didn't even think of
(31:43):
that until you just said that, Like why would you
want to interview someone like me? When I'm someone to
you like who he's who he's cheated on you with.
I didn't think about that until you just said that.
But and I feel it didn't even occur to me
and I and that's a horrible thing to say. No,
And I'm sorry that because you know, it's rude to
(32:03):
say that I hate someone that I don't even know,
because people say that about us, they hate me. I
get people and you know, and that's really rude. And
I'm well, because you know people, people don't like people
for different reasons. But I want to apologize because I
should never have said I don't know you, you you know,
and I don't know your story and now I'm learning
(32:25):
your story. But I want to apologize because that's not
fair of me to label you for the face of
someone else, you know, because you have a story and
everyone has their story. Sorry this is but like, so
I'm I apologize for just straight up being like, now
I hate her. I don't that's she cheated. She's she's
(32:47):
the who cheated, probably with my husband, you know. So
I really am so sorry for just not getting to
know your story before I passed judgment, because I'm sure
you've gotten that judgment from a lot of people. So
that's why I did the documentary because I go through
life with people hating me like I did something personally
(33:08):
to them and personally hurt them, personally, offended them, personally,
did something to them with such a vengeance. They hate
me with a passion when I did nothing to them personally.
And you're the first person that like has caused because
(33:29):
your husband did something similar, right, and like that's still
not right, no, but like no, but you're the first
person that like we're having this conversation that like I
get it because your husband like literally did something and
and it makes sense though, right, so I get it,
and I feel and I but I feel like I
(33:50):
know why you have that hatred, right, And I feel horrible.
I feel I feel horrible, but you have to realize
I didn't do it to you. And I've had I've
had to feel hatred like your hatred of me for
ten years. And I didn't do that to you. I
did it for someone else, and I feel horrible, but
(34:11):
I didn't do it to you, and I hope you
realize that. And I'm sorry that you hate I didn't
do it to you, though, And I'm your husband, thank you.
I've all I've always loved you, but I would never
keep you know like I didn't do it to you.
So I just want you to know that. And I'm
sorry for the mistakes that your husband made. I I
(34:33):
would hope like I'm in support of you, guys. I
want you to know that I support you guys so much.
I hope that, I really hope that your husband doesn't
make mistakes like that again. I hope. I want you
guys to succeed so much. I'm there for you guys
so much, and I want you guys to succeed. But
I didn't make that mistake, and and I just want
(34:55):
you to know that, and I and I and I
do and I appreciate you saying that. I think it's
a huge lesson for women that have been cheated on
or vice versa, to know that it's not um, just
because someone else did doesn't mean that they're a bad person.
Or again saying like, because you didn't do that to me,
you were the you're the face and the story of
(35:15):
what you know, but you're not the person. You're not
You're not You're not them. And um, and I can't
imagine living those years with so many people just hating
on you and not getting to know you because I
make up. But that's exhausting and it's it's it's hurtful
(35:38):
and um yeah, I and I just because of um,
of a feeling you had with someone that you loved
or liked or whatever. So you know, I am, I
am sorry about that. I can't imagine that. I bet
that's really hard. Yeah. Well, and I you know it's
and again I I I'm so sorry. And you know
(36:01):
I would hope I'm sorry to hear that she wasn't apathetic. Yeah, yeah,
I agree. Totally sucks and you should make her apologize
by the way, Um well, I guess we shouldn't. We
shouldn't talk to her anymore, so she sucks, um um.
(36:21):
But that's not how she should have handled it. Quite frankly.
I mean, I don't know anything about her, so um,
but she should feel sorry she but you know, anyway,
we won't talk about her anymore. UM. Mike's like, thank god,
moving on, okay, sorry, no, you're good, Rachel. We've gotten
this question a lot from people about how are we
going to talk to our kids when they get of
(36:41):
age with things? And we know you have a daughter
who's ten eight. I'm sorry, UM, how have you have
you addressed things with her? What are your plans to
or you know kind of things are around that. UM,
I haven't, but you know she for example, today she
just saw uh an ad for like the Tiger the
(37:03):
Tiger doc and she she mentioned it. So she's smart enough.
She's also you know, she's been alive for all of this,
meaning she's seen paparazzi follow me. She's she's been alive
for all of this. She's never mentioned anything to me
or said anything, um, directly, but she's always been around
(37:25):
for it. So when she sees paparazzi outside, she lifts
her mask up. She's but she's never directly said anything.
At some point I'll have to address something with her.
But I always just try to um raise her the
best way I can try to give her the best
skills that I know how, UM, I don't know, I
(37:45):
don't know how to answer that with her, but UM,
I will definitely UM relationships will will definitely be something
that is important to bring up with her and UM.
You know, I've definitely had a horrible history with her
dad and me, so UM making sure I talked to
her about relationships with UM. Boys will be something that
(38:08):
I definitely talked to her about, like as she starts
to get interested in boys or whatever it is, you know,
Like I make sure that she is careful about her picker.
I want I had a horrible picker, you know, and
I want to make sure that she has a good one,
you know, and that she's picking the right friends and
the right people because growing up is hard. Having the
(38:28):
right girlfriends is hard, you know. UM people can be mean,
and I'm really protective of her, UM I you know,
UH people are horrible to me still, and so I
want to make sure that I um um um UM
teaching her right UM skills, that she's not a bully,
that no one's a bully to her. And that, um,
(38:50):
whatever happens to me, I have fixed it skin and
nothing is trickling down on her, you know, just kind
of impairing the similar similarities you and I have. I
was also an abusive relationship and even after he tried
to kill me, I went back and slept with him
that night, Like just that that addiction with with love.
(39:11):
And you know, a lot of people ask me like,
do do I have regrets with some of the relationships
that I that I've been in, And I'm like, well, no,
because you know, it's it's made me a stronger person,
or I've learned so much about myself. And granted, I'm
sure for you it's like, yeah, I would you have
wanted to have all the scrutiny the last however many years,
(39:32):
So I mean maybe you might have regrets, but at
the same time, now you're able to identify this love
addiction and then and then be able to have a
healthy relationship moving forward. So is that do you feel
the kind of the same way or or are you like, no,
I regret this or we always have regrets, right, but
you always learn when you fall. Now you want to
(39:54):
fall forward, right, so you try and say, oh, Okay, Well,
I'm glad I had these mistakes because every broken road
leads you to the next road forward, right, So I mean,
do I wish my life changed in the past. I
mean no, because I'm glad about who I am, because
I don't want to change anything about me, because now
(40:16):
I have every tool I have to move forward. I think.
I know I'm a really smart person and the most
resourceful person. I know. I could get through any situation,
uh that you asked me to by myself. I don't
need anyone to rely on. And I could literally get
myself out of any situation and figure it out and
move forward. And it's from every lesson that I've been through.
(40:39):
Um and I can handle it. I haven't not. I
figured out how to attack anything, you know, by myself.
So I'm happy that I've been to everything. I mean,
there are people I know that haven't been through divorces, tragedies, chaos, situation.
I could literally juggle everything. So do I want to
go through it again? No? But I'm happy that I've
(41:01):
experienced or touched everything so far. Um. Am I going
to fall or make a mistake again? Probably? Do I
want to be shamed again for it? No, I prefer
not to, but I'm sure I will. Um. I'd like
to have some real friends around me going forward. I
don't have a lot of those right now. It would
be nice to find some good friends and be nice
(41:23):
to find a nice man in my life. Would be
nice to get married and have been nice to have
a witness to my life and feel whole and uh,
you know, I'm forty five years old. I'd like to
feel happy. You know, it's really hard to find happiness
and feel like you have something to look forward to.
And like everyone else, you know, i'd like to you know, uh,
find some fulfillment in my life. Is not what we're
(41:45):
all striving for. I mean, I don't know, um what
what's one thing like for our listeners that they want
to they you want them to take away with your story,
like who you are? Like who is the real Rachel.
I've like them to watch the documentary on Sunday night.
If they haven't seen the first part it was last Sunday,
you can go on HBO Max and watch it, and
(42:07):
then I'd like you to watch it this Sunday, like
you guys to watch it. I think I think it's
really interesting, but I'd like you to know that the
media presents a picture of people, and they blame people,
and they make a story out of things that aren't
necessarily facts. And there's things that happened, and then there's
a story that happens after that, and it's not necessarily true,
(42:28):
and there are people that go with it. And everyone
has to put their head down at night and put
the legs out and go to sleep on a pillow.
And they're people involved, and you know, have a little empathy.
And I've been low, I've been down here, so now
I have empathy for others, and I wish other people
would have empathy for others too. UM. So you know, uh,
(42:49):
that's all. I just wish the people would realize. I'm
I'm like you, um, like everyone else, and I'm not
out to steal anyone's husband. I'm you know, I like
to find my own husband. I would like to be
friends with you, guys. I want the best for other people. Um.
You know, sometimes there are assholes out there, so I
(43:09):
get nasty with people too, just like I'm sure if
I want to text to you guys, you're like, you know,
you know, but but beyond that, I just you know,
I want to have you know, I have my daughter,
I have you know. I'm just trying my best and
we're all trying to get through the pandemic and figure
out life. And um, i'd like to see you make
more music. I love your country music like you know. Um,
(43:32):
you know that's it. I just I just want to
be happy. Well, we hope a little less anger and
nastiness in the world, yes, please, Well, definitely, we hope
the best for you, Rachel, And we appreciate your vulnerability
and your willingness to come on and talk to us
about such a difficult subject for you know, for all
of us to talk about and for listeners to hear.
But again, we appreciate you sharing your your true story,
(43:53):
and we hope nothing but the best for you moving forward,
and then you can get out of this cloud of
shame and that people continue to put you in. So again,
like you just said, you're a human being too, and
you deserve empathy just like everyone else does. So we
wish nothing by the best. And I'm sorry that I yeah,
I just want to say I'm sorry again that I, Um,
I did what I always hate that people do. Form
(44:14):
like I didn't get to know you before, you know,
I would never say what I said in the beginning. Um,
now knowing you, so I just I'm thank you for
giving us the opportunity to get to know you. I'm
excited to watch Tiger on HBO Max and whenever you're
in Nasha, let me know. Thank you. And I just
wanted to say I really hope the best for the
two of you, and um, I am so honored to
(44:36):
have been on your program, and thank you so much
for giving me the opportunity to have your forgiveness. So
I really do want the best for you. Thank you
so much. I appreciate it. Have a good one, take care. Yeah,
(45:01):
we're alive him Mark Danielle. Everyone thought, Hi guys, I
think that went well. Yeah. Yeah, I mean I'm proud
of you. Yeah. I had so much anxiety because I
felt terrible when she's like, what did you say about me?
And I was like, oh my god, I said I
hated her, but I did. She was her face wasn't there,
(45:23):
you know, And that's just to show that, like, yeah,
I mean it's a show that well, that just goes
to show like how much like when someone goes through pain,
like that amount of pain, how it. It inhibits your
judgment of somebody like it just it plagues your opinion
on people on another human being because of the pain
(45:46):
that you still hold in the trauma around it. So
that's that anybody going through that kind of trauma would
would No one can fault you. But also the people
that didn't go through it hater toot. I'm sure there's
people that hat they make up like, oh, she's just
a white stealer, you know. So it's like and I
always say, like for us, like, I know people hate me,
(46:08):
but get to know me first, then say you hate me,
you know, because you can't. Bet you can't. You'll wear
someone down, you will like me. So you know I
did what I always hate people due to us and so,
but Mark, would you think? I thought it was great
And I really love the honesty on everybody's part. I
(46:28):
love that you told her that I said you hated her.
I thought that was real because I'm sure she gets
that a lot. I'm sure she appreciated the opportunity to
take someone who hates her in respond to Yeah, respond
to health was really good in a healthy way. Yeah.
I thought it was very raw and very real. I
just have like I feel like I have an elephant
sitting on my chest. It's just like or it's like
(46:50):
like that exact that anxiety. You know. Sure, well, I'm
proud of you and how you handled it, and I'm
sorry for the triggers that came up, but I'm sorry
for YouTube. I know it's not easy for you your
side as well. But I think you know, this was
good for maybe two people to hear so they can
take maybe that anger, that pain that they have towards
(47:11):
the third party or towards their significant other and if
it didn't even happen to you, just in general, and
like that person's or whatever right and is realized that
they're still a human being and they have their own, yeah,
and their own issues. And you don't know the whole story.
You don't. I mean to lose someone in nine eleven,
to lose her father to this, like it's not an excuse,
but like Michael says, it's an explanation. Yes, it can
(47:31):
explain a lot of your actions throughout your life. Oh,
I was researching while we were talking to you you on
the picture of her on the cover of the New
York Post right after nine eleven holding the picture of
her missing husband. I mean it's hard not Yeah, it's
hard not to feel for her when you see that photo. Agreed.
Oh man, I can't even. Um, I actually do want
(47:52):
to watch Tiger because I like Tiger, even though I've
said some things you know about them as well, but
he's yeah, I want to watch it. I want to
watch her out at Me and Rachel are busties. So um, yeah,
I'm excited. Everyone watched Tiger on HBO, HBO Max, HBO Max,
(48:13):
and uh we have yeah, we have a really amazing
few episodes coming up. Uh Steven, oh my god, I'm
a prema scene. Stephen Colletti and James Lafferty are going
to be coming up soon on the next few episodes.
So um, stay tuned, and thanks for getting through that
(48:36):
podcast with those guys. We did it together. We did
it together. We hope it helps. Okay, let's go make
love baby bye.
Host
Jana Kramer
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