Pivot to Win It

Jana hangs out with her new friends from the Pivot Podcast (Channing Crowder, Fred Taylor & Ryan Clark) and they share an intimate look at what people normally expect from them as pro football players. 

Jana and the guys cover everything from relationships to parenting to racism. This is an honest and unfiltered conversation like you’ve never heard before.

Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Wind Down with Jane Kramer and I heart radio podcast.
All Right, So I'm very excited about this week because
Catherine and I had the chance well I mean, you
were like behind the scenes, dying, dying, but um, I
had the opportunity to sit down with Channing Crowder, Fred Taylor,
Ryan Clark, their three incredible former football players. Um. They

(00:26):
have a new podcast out called The Pivot Podcast, and
I was able to sit down with them and having
to have a really deep, authentic, vulnerable conversation with them,
and I just the second I finished with their podcast,
I was like, can you guys please come on mind?
So I'm so excited. Let's welcome the Pivot Podcast dudes
on wine Down. I feel like I just guess I

(00:46):
keep saying I'm like my boys, my boys, and you
guys are probably like crazy, but I don't know. I
just like, I love you guys so much. And I
had such an such an amazing experience on y'all's podcast.
I'm so excited that I have, UM, you guys here today,
So thank you for joining me and Catherine. Um, that
was so much fun. Hey, guys actually get to be

(01:09):
a part of it this time instead of freaking out
in the background. We were freaking out for a little bit.
Why were you freaking out? Trying to get everything together.
Alicia's like, you're gonna love her, trust me, it's gonna
be great. So we're trying to collect everything. I'm like
the FBI, I'm I'm deep diving. I found out that

(01:31):
you've recently got baptized. I'm like, okay, I like that.
So we're checking off these boxes. And it turned out amazing,
it really did. It was great. It turned out amazing.
Thank you. I feel like Katherine. She was in the back.
I could hear her sometimes go oh, who is she
gonna answer that question? And then I get in the
car and I was like, hey, is there anything that

(01:52):
She's like? I mean, you know, and I was like,
you know what, screwt. It was a great conversation and
let's just just just keep it all. It's fine. It
was great. I love that we we we we tell
a lot of our guests like we have full creative controls,
so you can take out whatever you don't want or
one in. But yeah, I'm some crazy stuff. So I
was glad you're all gone hold bout it. We had

(02:13):
a real good time. I mean I feel like it's
one of those things where when you start to edit,
that's where for me, like when I do this podcast too,
it's like there's things, of course that I that I
say out of maybe frustration or anger or maybe I
just talked to my excerpts or a friend or whatever,
and then I go, oh, crap, and then some things
I leave in and I wish I would have taken out.
But at the same time, it's like when we start

(02:34):
to censor so much, then I just feel like I'm
not even like why I have this to be authentic
and open, and then when you start to go like, well,
then what's the point of having that deep conversation? Yeah? Yeah,
I think what's what's what's happening with us? And you know,
it's so crazy because it feels like we've been doing
this podcast forever, but it hasn't even been three full months.

(02:57):
And you know, at Licia comes to us and is like,
you know, we would get Jenner Kramer, and so we
all like studying and we understand like how deep your
story was. What it gave us was an opportunity to
show different sides of ourselves as well. You know, I
think when you have a great guest like you, somebody
who is that open though, and somebody who you have
good energy with and a great vibe you do kind

(03:20):
of walk away like oh my god, Like do we
say that or do we talk about this? But like
that's the other piece of it is you want to
show people, and we want to show people that no
matter how famous, no matter how successful, like, we're just
still all humans. And I think your story, uh not
only you know, was so your human side, but who

(03:42):
humanized us? Like three black football players are having this
conversation and you know, we're talking about being baptized, you're
talking about the things you've gone through in your marriages,
the ways the ways that you rebounded, and so it
truly gave us an opportunity, um to have conversation we
don't get to and so we were just we were
so grateful that you came, grateful you were the way

(04:05):
you are. Because we've done an interview and had somebody
be like, I don't know about this part or take
o this. There's an interview that like we can't even
there's a podcast, like we can't even post because they
do so much out of it's not even a show.
It's not our show, and so we were very for
you the way you were. Oh well, I mean, I
appreciate you saying that, but I mean it was it
was great to be able to sit down and just

(04:26):
have that conversation, especially because you know, in my mind too,
I got to learn about y'all and because I've had
such a and I please don't take this the wrong way,
but I've had such like a tainted image of my
mind of a football player, right because of what I've
gone through, and so I just kind of put that on, like, oh,
every football player does this or does that, and it's

(04:47):
just so unfair to categorize you guys into a box
like you probably do the same thing that you know
this football player does or and that's just not fair
when I, you know, don't know y'all stories or how
you are as you know, husbands and friends and um players.
So you know, that was really cool sit down and
kind of here like y'all's perspective, um, and I took

(05:11):
a lot of them that as well. Well. No, it
happens a lot too. I mean, the football player, you're
not your your stories from the past are crazy, Like
we went through them like it's a but it happens
to me. It happens to me all the time. I
guess some country and I joke around a lot and
people are like, look at me sometimes, but like, man,
you're you're an intelligent dude. And I know it's a compliment,

(05:31):
but I work backwards just saying, what the hell do
you think I was before you figured out I was
telling it, like you know that people do have preconcy
notions of athletes, football players or whatever it is. So
it's honestly great that we could talk. You know, we
could talk like so candidly and you can, like you said,
understand our side. We understood your story where you come from,
because all all five of us are from totally different places.

(05:52):
But to have a connection, to have this small connections
in life and be able to grow friendships, I love.
I love that part of it. Still talking to you
after after the show, still talking to people. Actually, we
were in Nashville and people were coming up to us.
They were like, oh, man, did Jane claims? Is she cool?
And she she seems like she's cool as she was
and I'm like, yeahtually cool as like they were like,

(06:13):
oh my goodness. I loved it so it expanded my
demographic of fans just sitting down with you, and you know,
I'm sure if vice versa, like a lot of people
didn't know do you that know you now. So that's
the most beautiful thing about I just like talking to
good people and and finding those small connections that kind
of everybody sees the same level and I say, oh here,
I was just gonna say, Fred, how are your one

(06:33):
liners going that real meaningful? We're still working with that.
It's still uh, it helps create create the balance. So
we got the pro we got told and then we
got me. That's how it goes. But I was gonna

(06:54):
say this weekend, I've been in Nashville, ton playing the
Titans down there in the same division for years over
my thirteen year career. I never never missed the season
where we played down there. But I didn't get an
opportunity to get out in the city even when we
came down with you, other than seeing Ryan and high
form last time we were in Nashville. Other than that,

(07:18):
you know, I still hadn't got an opportunity to see
the city. But I can see why you ended up
in Nashville. You went from Detroit to New York l
A to Nashville. Lord, okay, perfect. I love Nashville, Tennessee. Yeah,
this past weekend. Whoa that I gotta go back. It

(07:41):
is so great. I mean a lot of music, the
bars Broadway right there is your third half. It's great, man,
it's great. Yeah, no, it's it's a It's an amazing place.
Next time we will make sure we can all get together.
But you know, it was it was really cool to
see how well received that episode was too, so I

(08:01):
was I was happy about that. Um, but I have
to ask your guys opinion on uh what happened with
Will Smith the oscars Um. I mean, I definitely have
my thoughts, but I just you know, it was one
of the things where I was like, I want to
talk to you guys about it, and um, something came
up for me when I was watching your Antonio Brown interview,

(08:23):
which because i'm and I'm a fan of the Pivot
podcast and now I watched him and it was something
that you said to about because he was wearing his
um what was that? Yeah, knye hoodie and and I
think it was Ryan you said. You know, Um, it's
hard to I don't want to misspeak at all. Um,

(08:44):
I asked, did he think that people could take him
seriously and the perception right, yeah, because we'll see it,
people see it a different way and they don't necessarily
understand that is just fashion. And also too, you know,
when you're doing and saying certain things and you look

(09:05):
a certain way, people can't like. The visual is so
important to people, you know. Did you think about the
things that you've heard about people and then that you've
seen it, you know, and this is obviously the same situation,
but think about what we thought we knew about ray
Rice and and and how seed them as to what

(09:26):
happened once we all got to see it. And trying
to explain to Antonio is like, the visual and the
perception of those things is not necessarily always who we
truly are or what we want to be. But you
have to be aware of that, you know, last night
was but last night it was absolutely crazy to Yeah,

(09:47):
I mean, and I will because when I look at
it with especially when I was relating, and there's no
true relation, but in the sense of you know, um,
how I know int new Brown is like, oh he's
a you know, he's a great player, but is that
now overshadowed by all of his actions on the sidelines
and the whatever. And so when I look at the

(10:08):
Wills situation, is this he's he's been working for an
Oscar for thirty years now. This is so overshadowed. And
and also, you know, the it just looked like the
you know, the there never should have abuse or any
of those things. And then it just was kind of like, Okay,
it's forgotten. And he didn't even apologize to Chris Rock.

(10:30):
So I'm just curious what you're at, y'alls. No, I don't.
I don't think it's gonna ever be forgotten. You would
have the greatest night in television, you know, the greatest
uh war ceremony as it relates to TV movies except whatever. Uh,
it's gonna be a stain on his on on his legacy,
you know, on his his Uh you know this award,

(10:52):
it's gonna always be a stain. And not only that,
you know, it's gonna always involve being in serena their dad,
you know the reason he won the Oscar. It's totally unacceptable. Uh.
He later said in this you know, in this space,
you have to be able to be able to handle
disrespect I agree with that. I also agree what Denzel

(11:14):
told him that at your highest moment, this is when
the devils will attack you. He should have known that beforehand. Um,
I don't condone, you know, his actions. Uh, I think
that Chris was the bigger man at the end of
the day by not retaliating. I showed some extreme professionalism
in that sense. I don't condone what Chris said about Jada,

(11:39):
But he is a comedian, so a lot of times
they get passes on a lot of things. They say,
Uh still, if if Will had a chance to do
it again, maybe he does it. And you know, backstage,
so we all think it's a rumor. Right, come over here,
let's let's talk whatever and then but you know, still,

(12:02):
I don't condone it even if he's done that way.
But there are certain ways to handle different things that
if you do feel some some aggression, you know, coming
to the forefront, uh totally wrong, really out of pocket,
and uh, I don't think he will ever be able
to uh make right of it. But it wasn't that bad.

(12:22):
It wasn't that bad. It wasn't that to make a
ball joke like I get she has so she has alopecia,
which I can understand it being you know, like that's
something that's you know, hard for her. At the same time,
it's like how many times have people been made fun
of for their addictions or there. I mean, it's just

(12:43):
that's people show up for the first five minutes of
the oscars to hear the kind of um roasting of
it all, and it's like it's yes, and again, like
what what what world would it be if something he
came in the side was like hey, like don't do that,
you know, and like have a respectful if you're a
vessel of love, like he says, a vessel of love
would never get on stage and just straight up bitch

(13:04):
slap somebody. But I think it's even even the jokes
that we have with our s about him and I
have an organ and like he has a serious disease
that kills people, But we could joke about that. You
can't joke about alopecia. How many lives is alopecia? Take it?
She has alopecia. So here we go. Yeah, I do,

(13:27):
I do. I've dealt with it since it was eight
seventeen eighteen. Now I have not had to shave my
head um, And I don't really know her reasoning because
it's different bald spots, you know, and I don't know
if hers is a little bit different or what. Um.
You know, I might not have loved it, but I
also would not have expected my husband to do that either,

(13:51):
So you know, it's it's you know, it's distasteful. I agree,
I don't think you should have made the joke, But
also Will laughed at it, which I was very confused by,
Like he laughed and then all of a sudden he's
on stage slapping him. So I was confused by. And
I guess maybe he just saw her face because clearly
she was upset. He got upset. But then the same

(14:11):
like Will was in a bad place anyway, Yeah, like
after the whole acceptance stuff. It's it seemed like he
was on edge already. Ye. My problem this is when
you choose to be tough. No like they like like
we didn't seen, we didn't seen Will and some bad
spots fooling around with Jada recently, right the the table talk,
the entainment, all of those things like this, the day

(14:33):
you choose to be hard, you know what I'm saying, Like,
come on, and also too we all know this, Channey,
Like I know, in no place in America would I
ever walk up to you or Fred and slap one
of y'all and not expect to fight. Yeah, yeah, you
know who you're dealing with. Like he understood that. That

(14:53):
was Chris Chris Rock. He understood what the moment was.
And honestly, y'all, I forgot he won the Oscar, right, Like,
nobody posting about that. Nobody's talking about how hard this
man has worked his entire life for the fact that
he was broke when he had an opportunity to audition
for the Fresh Prince of bel Air. And this is

(15:14):
the culmination of that. Like, this is the climax of
all of those things, and we are not talking about it.
You gotta thing, bro This puts him in the category
with Holly Berry. This puts him in the category still Washington, Washington,
as African Americans who have won an Oscar, and we
don't even get to celebrate that. He doesn't get to

(15:35):
celebrate that as a culture, as a community, as a people,
we can't talk about that in our excitement, right, our
opportunity to finally feel like, okay, another time we are
recognized for what we can do. I totally agree in
echo what RC is saying. You know, we we do
definitely as a black community. You know, these things are

(15:59):
you and and and not so often. But Will is
an amazing talent, but you don't get an opportunity to really, uh,
you know, celebrate his night again. It's gonna be staying
the legacy, you know, a this acceptance is going to
be staying. But I do commend Chris Rock, you know,
just for being a bigger person, because just imagine what

(16:20):
it looks like if not only one black man slapping
another black man or another human thing, uh, in front
of the entire world, if we had two black men
fighting on television, two black men fighting, that's just gonna
put us in a box that says, you know, these
black guys, they just don't know how to act. Maybe

(16:41):
they don't deserve to be here. And quite naturally, those
are you know, some of the conversations that were at
least from you know, our side of things, believe, uh
is what's going on with the oscars for the most partum,
because we do have some very talented, amazing African American
actors and actresses. Uh, sometimes we felt that they haven't gotten,

(17:05):
you know, the recognition of the glory uh that they
or the achievements that they deserved. So I can only
imagine if Chris had retaliated. It's just it's a complete
It's this look multiplied times ten. I believe if Chris
Rock had responded mm hmm, yeah, I want to give

(17:26):
Crystal love. He's tugged his chip, poking his chin out,
took a smack, and then started talking about documentaries. Let's
be honest, this this man eight the one and just
kept working. So I get Cristal Prader for that, But no,
I'm hun to see what y'all saying. As a black community,
all that we've been through, you know, Jim Crow and
all the the racial injustices and everything happens, right, so

(17:49):
we take pride in it as a people. As a
group of people, we take pride to any success that
you know, at a high level of a black woman,
of black woman, a black man take And it really
it did. Like Freddy was saying that, just that's what
gave me the funny feeling that the joke I said,
the joke didn't jump off like I didn't. I didn't,
I didn't, I didn't cringe when the joke hit. I
cringe when I saw the responses in the crowd and

(18:11):
I saw the social media and the action of what
they were saying, taking taking the honorable night of Will
Smith to making it something bad for for everybody that
was supporting Will. Everybody was back in the fresh Prince
of Bell every day and he was making them terrible
rap songs. I was still buying his album and now
you you're seeing him just put it, put a stain
on his night. And now it was the thing that

(18:32):
got to me more than the joke and the interaction
as a fifth year old man. You shouldn't be slapping nobody.
That's the flat out thing. Like at one r C.
Preddy like I think at you could still slap somebody
and saying motion got the best of you. Even where
we are now, I'm like, I'm I'm the youngest one,
I'm late thirties. We can't go around slapping people. People, Seriously,

(18:54):
there's nothing that anybody can do other than hitting me
first to make me slap them like that the crazy
there's two thousand pointy two. You can't just slap folks.
That's the flat out human side of it. There's a
lot more to it, but just don't slap nobody, especially
on national TV, especially at the Oscars, there's a lot
to it. You can't slap people. That would be that
would be my main focus is But like that's the

(19:14):
crazy thing is like what goes through your head when
you're sitting there before you walk on stage to slap
Chris Rock? You know what I'm saying? Like that, Like,
at some point you have to have the thought process. Okay,
we're at the Oscars. The joke actually ain't that bad.
And I know Chris Rock. I know Will Smith has

(19:35):
Chris Rock's number. M h'm does, and I'm certain that
he knows that they can have a conversation. And now,
if you have a conversation with Chris Rock after the
show and Chris Rock continues to be what you consider disrespectful,
slap the name. You know what I'm saying, No, like
like really like I I understand what you're saying, channeing
Like we can't just go around popping people, that's for sure.

(19:58):
But even if you have that big of an issue
with it, have the conversation with him. If Chris Rock
is like you know what I you it was funny.
I'm glad I said it, and I don't care that
your wife have alopecia, then slap it. But but but
to to ruin so not only ruin that moment, but
to do that in that instance to Chris Rock, Like

(20:20):
Chris Rock didn't deserve that for doing what was his job, right.
I have issues with people and the way they do
their jobs sometimes, but I don't get it was just
and and slap me and punch me. Where do you

(20:51):
guys think that we're at with UM kind of a
society and whole with you know, when there was the
because and I'm trying to like I want to make
sure again and I use my words correctly with this UM.
You know, when everything happened a few years ago, there
started more of a movement, more talking about BLM and

(21:12):
UM and where UM. And we had some people on
the podcast and I it's I'm still like, I I
don't want to how do I say this? Like I
I'm trying to learn and but at the same time,
like people are like UM. I think it was one
of Mickey She's like black people shouldn't have to feel

(21:33):
like they have to teach us UM what they went
through or and I'm like, I just want to understand,
like that's why, Like one of my very good girlfriends
is a African American woman and Mickey guy and she's amazing,
and it's like, I don't know what you went through,
Like I want to understand because I I didn't. We
have different and I you know, and even um, you
guys know Chris Spencer, like he came on our podcast.

(21:55):
He's like, I'm a football player and people. I go
into my really nice car and I asked me if
I stole it, and I'm just like like really, Chris,
like I just and you have you guys, I mean obviously,
like I just I would love to hear how you
handle UM and how you're kind of changing helping change.
I guess I don't know the narrative or and I'm

(22:16):
trying to make sure I don't disrespect at all, like forgetting.
I think that's you know, especially now since there's more
awareness um that has been raised, you know, especially in
light of you know, George Floyd, Brianna Taylor, like some
of those those situations, it was kind of it was
brought to the forefront more. And I believe that more

(22:37):
than black people finally started to realize that there is
a difference in treatment, that there is a difference in
in perception. And that's so I think, you know what
happens is now you know you, you you gravitate towards
different things that allows people to see you in a
different light. You know. Uh, myself working on TV and

(23:01):
and being a part of those things, I had an
opportunity throughout to voice my opinion, to talk about, uh,
where I felt we were as a society, talk about
the reasons that Black people don't feel that they're treated equally.
And I think it's always for the naysayers or for
the people who want to oppose what we're saying or

(23:22):
want to oppose this movement, I think they always feel
like Black people want to be treated special, right, that
we want to be above the law, or we want
to get more. That's not what we're asking. What we're
saying is the same rules, the same opportunities, the same
chances that everyone else gets. That's what we want as well.

(23:44):
We want the a level playing field in all fatises
of fatises of life. And that's truly what everybody deserves.
And so what has happened for me though, um, you know,
when we speak of changing the narrative is we also
have to look at other people who feel slighter. Right,

(24:04):
we have to look at the way Asian Americans were
treated in right, we have to look at the l
g B, t Q plus community as well. And so
what I've started doing is diving into different things as
it pertains to others, as it does to me. And
I think you can't be against one injustice and not

(24:26):
recognize that there are other injustice is happening. And so
for for for me, it's been about expanding my knowledge
on other things, on other people, and if we can
now become aware of how we're treated and also help
others who are treated unfairly, I think that's where we
grow as a society. And body gets that planned field

(24:49):
level as they wanted. And Jane, I say, it's funny
because you you were kind of trying to, you know,
figure out the right way to say it. I never, Yeah,
I don't. I don't. I don't because I feel like
you can easily say something like you know, and I
don't want to. But that's the thing, it's something Marcy
said it perfectly. He's that he's beautiful with his words

(25:10):
but he it was a great point. But like even
that the question for you to ask and want to
really know, you know, like the Tradia Martin's, the George Floyd's,
like that is so violent. People are dying to bring
something to the forefront, which you shouldn't be like that,
Like people should want the Asian Asian Americans, they should
want women. They shouldn't want marginalization. They shoun't want red
lining communities. Like all the stuff we know is going on,

(25:32):
the the the wage gap, you know, the different places
where now oh this this person lives here, these people
live here is like oh that it's it's it's in
black and white, Like we know what's going on. If
you want to learn and you want to understand other people,
ask questions. We talk to people. We talked to different people.
I talked to different people style, sexes all day long,

(25:53):
and just ask questions. Just get like let me, let
me get one thing from you that I can take
and make myself a better person, maybe passing out of
my kids one day. And that's the thing. So asking
the questions is where it all needs to start and
really wanting to know the answer, not saying oh oh yeah,
the black lives matters out. Now, let's you know, let's
talk to some black people. Know what do you go
through a daily basis that I don't Why when I

(26:14):
get out, you know, I get out my nice struck,
I get out, I come out and walk out my
million dollar house. Why do people double double take when
I walking out my front door. I can have a
nice house. Don't you have a nice house. So just
the understanding of that is what, It's what the main thing.
And it's easier said that done, obviously, because it's still
going on to two. People are still getting killed and
racism everywhere. But you even asking the question, jail, that's

(26:36):
the greatest. That's that's how change is gonna happen. Conversation. Correct.
And I want to add to myself that I've experienced
some discrimination. I don't necessarily call it racism, but I
feel that I've been discriminated upon in certain instances just
being out in the community to the point where I

(26:57):
might sell who's made millions of dollars. I don't feel
comfortable in certain neighborhoods right because I know that it
comes with a certain stigma and perception where if I'm
driving down my license is valid. I don't. I have
a great driving record. My insurance is update. But sometimes
if you're certain areas that they're at certain times, there

(27:20):
are officers in those areas doing their jobs, but sometimes
they they do more than their job. And you know,
if I'm a black guy in this neighborhood, you know,
after a certain time. For example, when I was growing up,
uh before I made it to the NFL and all
this other stuff, it was said, I grew up in
Palm Beach County. You have West Palm Beach, you have

(27:43):
Palm Beach, you know, but most of the time people say,
I'm going to Palm Beach, But that's the entire county
in the hole. But Palm Beaches, you cross the bridge
and now you're over you know, Mari Lago, what Trump
is and thirty million dollar homes. That's an area you
were told not to be across that side of the

(28:04):
bridge after you know, six six thirty because the cops
are gonna harash you. And this was when I was
a teenager. So even now as an adult, although you know,
I carry myself appropriately and now to talk to officers,
I know how to handle certain situations, I still don't
feel comfortable, you know, because I just want to avoid those, uh,

(28:26):
those things, those you know, uh encounters, potential encounters. But
we have to deal with that, you know. It's unfortunate
that we have to deal with that. We have to
deal with a lot. I don't want to uh, you know,
I don't want to seem as if everyone is crying.
But the truth of the matter is we're gonna get

(28:46):
pointed out before you know, other individuals or racists get
pointed out to their own kind and vice versus two.
You know, if there's a white person in certain areas
other hood, it's either you know, you're gonna get robbed,
are you gonna get sold serve and cocaine and crack
or something because they're gonna think you're a junkie if

(29:07):
you're in the hood. You know. So it actually works
both ways, but I think it's more prevalent, uh as
it relates to the to the African American H minority communities.
I think the I think the thing that it is
more than anything too. It's like we all have these biases. Um,
I think many of us don't believe that we're racist.

(29:30):
Like I think a lot of people feel like they're
not racist, but they're not they're not aware of the
cultural biases. And I remember years back, uh, when some
things was going on, Mark Cuban made this statement. Mark
Human said, you know, and he took a lot of
heat because he mentioned a black man in the hoodie,
and obviously everyone drew that back on Trayvon Martin. But

(29:53):
what was if I'm walking down the street and I'm
on the street and there's a white guy with the
ball head with tattoos everywhere, I'm going to walk to
the other side of the street. And he said, And
if I'm on that side of the street and it's
late at night and a guy's walking towards me and
he's black with the hood on, I'm gonna cross back over.

(30:14):
And what he was trying to explain is the the
biases and quote unquote kind of awarenesses we have of
certain stereotypes. But the problem is in African American communities,
those stereotypes have gotten lives taken. So that issue and

(30:35):
you know, whenever someone wants to oppose black lives matter
or they want to be on the negative side of
of what black people are trying to portray to him,
they talk about, you know, black on black crime, all
of these things. It's about how society is set up.
It's about those in authority positions and the way that

(30:58):
they treat black people. See, it's okay, Like it's okay
if I'm walking down the street and you call me
an inn word because you're ignorant. I can live with that.
What's not okay is if you run a business and
you won't promote black people, or you won't even if
it's women, or you won't give them the same opportunity. Like,
that's the discrimination and racism, right. The racism is if

(31:21):
if if you're if you're a judge and a black
person is accused of a crime or convicted of a
crime and they get a harsher sentence than a white
person would get. Those are the type of discriminations and
and that's the type of racism that kills because that
kills lives. Right. It doesn't allow you know, it doesn't
allow people to build wealth, it doesn't allow people to

(31:42):
have careers, It doesn't allow people to take care of
their families. Those are the discriminations and the racisms that
are important, Like just being an ignorant person and not
liking black people. If you ain't harming me or stopping
me from living my life. I really don't care about that.
But I care about it is you see a guy
like George Floyd be nailed on for the amount of

(32:03):
time he was kneeled on, and not at any point
was there any compassion, was there any care, was there
any concern. It's about the devaluing of black lives. That's
more than that. That's more than just I don't care
about you. It's you don't exist to me, and not
existing for people is not okay. It's good. Yeah, well,

(32:26):
I think it's also good that you are asking questions.
I know you had that issue and you had Mickey on. Well,
Mike was very insensitive. He was Mike. I mean to
the point where I saw Mickey in the airport and
I had to apologize to her again because my ex
had made her cry and she ended up leaving the conversation.
And I was even just like, wow, did you how
could you? How would you say that? He basically yeah,

(32:48):
he's he was talking to Mickey and this is the
week that everything happened a couple of years ago. And
you know, again, I wanted to bring my friend on
because I'm like I'm sorry that I haven't asked or
haven't you know, have these versations with you, Like I
I felt like a bad friend, and so, I mean
it was bad. But Mike basically said to her, well,

(33:09):
it's just a numbers game, right, like, not every black
person is going to experience racist and I was just like,
it was it was so insensitive. When oh and I
heard it and then it's her, she was just like
and then she I mean I had to call I mean,
she hung up the podcast and it was like I
had to call her and she was I'm like, I'm
so sorry, like and he was just but he's in
his white privilege and you know, I'm like, why would

(33:32):
you even think that it's a percentage game? He said, well,
not every I'm like, you don't know, you're not being black,
you know, like you don't know. So when we got
into a fight, and then it was just the whole thing.
And then I mean, I I've apologized to her, you
know a few times over and um, you know then
I saw on the airport and she was just like,
you know, obviously being like them, So glad you're not
in that anymore. And then we had the conversation again.

(33:52):
But she was like, it was just so arrogant. And
but I mean, obviously, I mean was that I would
think that'd be upsetting to hear and m that's that's
the that's kind of what our c was saying earlier.
That's the ignorance that hurts people's If Mike whatever his
name is, if he doesn't like me, I don't care,
like she said, I don't care. It's when he's around

(34:14):
and being influential on the next generation and he's putting
that crap in a child's mind or a kid's mind,
and now that person around my kids and later on
in life, like like, we don't want to be friends
with everybody. I don't want everybody just see me and
just want to give me a hug. I just want
to be looked at. I'll joke sometime. I'll be like,
I'll go to work and I walk and work joking
around my coworkers and radio and I'd be like, listen, y'all, y'all,

(34:36):
treat me like a white man today. That's what I want.
Today I'm having a bad day. Treat me like a
white man. And you know, there is funny even last
But then when you think about it. He's like, so
what's the difference. And I'll look at it like there's
a difference though, isn't there? And he just, you know,
just little things you doesn't make it just turn over
and make that click. So yeah, like that the generational

(34:57):
he even Donna call it hate, the ignorance or the
g noring something that's going on. That's when it's perpetuated
generation generation, and that's what we're really trying to get
away from. It's interesting because like I have a thirteen

(35:20):
year old son who you know, I mean, he has
white friends, he has mixed friends, he has full I
mean just all over the board, and he they don't
really see any difference. Like I watched them and I
can tell they truly don't see any difference in them.
But it's so scary because it's like what do I

(35:40):
do as a mother of a white boy to help
because as he gets older, you know, I mean, I'm
sure they I say, I say that, I'm sure they
do feel that. I'm sure there they feed they can
feel differently. But as a mother of a white boy,
it's I I sometimes have a hard time, you know,

(36:00):
like if he doesn't understand why, you know, his friend
Havis for instance, like why he feels differently because he's
a black boy or whatever. It's just it's a hard
and again, we don't want to sound insensitive, but it
is kind of asking the question like how do we
really teach our white kids two treat everyone that, you
know what I mean? And it's like a hard question.

(36:21):
It's like you want to address it, but then addressing
it feels like you're separating is kind of creating a divide.
I think I think kids are a sponge. Kids are
gonna do what they see their parents do. They're going
to interact the way they see their parents their parents interact.
You know, they'll be able to get some you know,
different um teachings at school through their peers, but I

(36:46):
think that the majority of it, the reflection of what
they see at home will overshadow you know, what they're
getting at school at least at certain age. Now they
get to a point where this is all they see,
you know, you can try your hardest to keep them
off TikTok, Instagram, all these different places where this stuff

(37:08):
is just overly uh exposed and and not necessarily uh
regulated as it should be for kids. But we as
parents we you know, we try our hardest, We try
our hardest to keep our our kids young and keep
them close. But they become teenagers. And in my book,
in my mind, I said all the time, and I

(37:29):
think I've said it on the show. My son turned teenager.
He turned into an act. And as much as I
tried myself to look try to give him everything, to
keep him in line, to make sure that he doesn't
want for anything. You're gonna earn these things. You know,
you treat people accordingly, with respect. Uh, try to teach

(37:49):
me how to be a decent adult. You know, they're
gonna have friends and and that pull them certain directions,
and you can give them all you can. Uh, you
just gotta keep giving them love and um, you know,
you gotta hold out on faith and hope that they
get it, because truthfully, they're not gonna always get it.
Some kids are amazing. I tell Ryan all the time,

(38:11):
I think his son, Jordan is amazing. I was overly
impressed by the young man. I think him and his
wife did a great job with On the other hand,
I would always say my son is amazing. He's an
amazing human. You know, he he doesn't have a racist
or discriminatory bone in his body. But he does some
other things that are not always UH happy about. But

(38:33):
I tried my best as a parent. So you just
continue to do what you believe. And um, I think
that the kids are gonna take what they take and
sometimes naturally they just have it in them. It's part
of a DNA to be just a great, soft spoken,
outgoing person. And sometimes you know, they have to fight
those those things out in the classroom and out in society,

(38:55):
and that's not always easy, you know, because pitt pressure
is tough. Um. But as parents, we just gotta try
the best to be examples at home with our words
more than our actions. A lot of times our words
are huge because they take things like they're taking it
from YouTube and these other other places. My son coming
here after watching YouTube and he says a curse word,

(39:17):
like where'd you get that from? You to hear us
say it. But they're able to get these very exposed
to different things. But you know, when we slip, things
tend to slip through the cracks. But at the end
of the day, we start with respect at home. That's
what we want to demand, that's what we want to give.
And after that We just try the best to know

(39:38):
fix whatever might go wrong on the outside. But love
is love, you know. And I don't think we're born
with hate and our and our and our you know, makeup,
but it does. It can't see things. You gotta just
try your best to be the best you can with
them and let them live their lives and go going forward.

(39:58):
I have a question, is um, is you know your
kids being accepting, being nondiscriminatory, uh, not being racist? Is
that important to both of you? Absolutely? Okay, So think
about the other things in parenting that are important for you,

(40:20):
right when when you think about you know, hard work, uh,
being a certain way at school, all these things, you
make sure you express those things to your children, right
Like all the things you want them to be and
you want implemented into their lives. You make sure that
those things are taught in your home. Why should racism

(40:42):
be any different? You understand what I'm saying, Like, like,
why why can't you have that conversation? It's if it's
important to you, and I think that's the biggest thing. Um,
there's a difference in being um, in not being racist
and being an anti racist. If you can understand what
I'm saying, because now, if you're telling your kids, we

(41:04):
are supposed to accept everyone. Everyone deserves to be treated fairly,
Everyone deserves to be treated equally. Everyone is entitled to
the same liberty and rights as anyone else in this country.
And if you do see those sorts of injustices, if
you are around those sorts of racism, separate yourself from

(41:26):
those not necessary. You don't have to tell them go
change the world. Right But the same way you want,
we try to implement into our children who we want
them to be every day, right like, like, that's what
we do. We want them to be successful, we want
them to be smart, we want them to be great humans.
Every day we are teaching our kids what to be.

(41:49):
Why is it a problem to say? And also on
the other side of that, you need to treat everybody,
to say, you need to treat people with kindness, no
matter their color, no matter their gender, gender, no matter
they're religious affiliations. Everyone is entitled to be treated as
a human. And I think that simple part of the

(42:09):
conversation is not separation, it's actually inclusion. But happen is
we try, right like, like we make excuses for ourselves
to not have to do certain things like I don't
want to talk about racism because I don't want my
son to see color. That's that's not okay, that's not

(42:29):
true because everybody sees color well. And this is probably
a really terrible example, but to that, like, we were
at the Passport place in Atlanta and my daughter and
I are playing I Spy and so I was like,
I spy something green, and then she was we were
staying next to an African American man and she was
I saw as something black. And then I was just
like no, like because I was just like I don't
want to Like I'm like thinking my head like, oh

(42:51):
my god, is she going to think? Like is she she?
Is she thinking? You know? Is it was like? And
then I end up having a conversation like hey baby,
like you know, I don't and ended up just being
the keyboard. But in my mind, I'm like, oh my god,
Like I really think that. Up until the last couple
of years, we were kind of told not to call
a black person a black person. I know, I've been

(43:14):
taught that, and so it makes us uncomfortable when someone
says that. But now I think that it's kind of
people are saying like, yes, you see color. Don't say
I don't see color, because you see color. And that's
the conversation that me and my son have had a lot.
And he's a great human being and he has friends
all over the and we do have those conversations, a

(43:37):
lot of those conversations. But I do sometimes get to that,
you know, place of what I've been taught, and I'm like,
and I get scared, you know, I'm like, oh, your
black friend. Oh wait, you know, you know he is black?
Can I say that he's black? You know? Or you
know whatever? And I think it's just being honest. I
think you're right and having those conversations, and I think
I'm amazed at how I mean. I guess I give

(44:01):
us props because we have raised him right and he
does love everybody the same. But it's definitely an ongoing conversation.
I agree. I think you look at like kids are
so kids are so different from us, right because even
you know, like I joke all the time, you know,
I went to Catholic school, and I grew up a
certain way and I played sports, and so there are

(44:22):
so many influential white people in my life, you know,
like my Mom's still close to my coaches from growing
up because those were the people that did a ton
for me and helped me. It's as you get older
and become more aware that these biases affect your life.
You know, um, I think like, like you mentioned being thirteen,

(44:44):
and those kids like they truly don't see a difference,
Like they're really like homeboy. But we all go to
school together, we play basketball. It is what it is.
But then as you get older, think about, like, really
look at your life and think to yourself, how all
didn't do I plan a dinner? Do I plan a party?
Do I have an outing that I'm inviting somebody that

(45:07):
doesn't look like me? Right? How many? How many groups
or couples or families are people I'm close to that
didn't grow up like me? Right? We begin to section
ourselves off as we get over because obviously you want
to be around people who you have common interests with

(45:27):
and understanding and who you enjoy being around. But the
age your son is when you're at school, you don't
get the pick who you go to school. What I
always is, when we get to a point in our
lives where we get to pick our friends, we get
to pick our surroundings. That's when we truly start to segregate. Mhm, right,

(45:50):
people that look like you. And one more thing too, Um,
the whole thing about not bringing up race is it
protecting them from the race racial talk whatever. I hate
when somebody's like, hey, you guys outside who he's about
six four, he has short hair, black or white? Dude,
He's gonna cut out half the population if you just

(46:10):
say black and white. Like, just running from the word
black or white doesn't make you not racist or racist.
It's a description words. So like my my son Mike,
I'm going to fishing Saturday. Who you're fishing with? My
white butter down in the keys? Oh, Scotty, Yeah, Scott,
Do you remember Scotty? And we just it's like it's
not nothing negative to that. Do you think everyone Do
you think everyone feels that way though? Like I literally

(46:33):
just had this conversation with my husband, who is white,
who described someone as a black man. I'm like, well,
why did you have to say that he's he's like,
because he's black and that's descriptive word. But I don't
say my white friend Julie, like I don't know, but
he was trying to explain to me because there was
a white one and there was a black, you know,
so he was trying to explain, but I like kind
of like defensive, like, well, what is that supposed to mean?

(46:55):
I don't know. So it's it's I don't know, it's hard.
It's just it's saying, you know, if somebody's like, hey,
telling what you're doing. I was on the podcast which
one with two people that have long hair, white ladders
up in Nashville got us on the wine down like
it's just in this Christian word like that gets to
me too. It's the first thing I said. But anybody

(47:17):
who's outside, big old black dude, so like just and
even that, just to say that with the kids, to like,
if you run for words, like Freddy was saying too,
if you run from it, then they start running from it.
But they're not gonna get away from it. So now
they learn it through their friends and through other people,

(47:37):
because we have I've attended a nine year old and
we talked about it. They've seen me snap on people
because somebody says something rotatory towards another race and they're
in the back seat and I'm driving and I'd be like, hey,
don't don't put that crap in my kid's minds. Don't
be talking about this and am using this racial slurs
or whatever you wanna call it around my children. I'm
not doing that to them. You do that to your kids,
and my kids will sit there and through that it

(47:58):
clicks to them like, oh yeah, Dad, I don't like that.
Dad ain't dealing with that. So, like I would say,
don't be scared of it, because running from it, nobody's
changed if you run it from it. Just talking about it, Well,

(48:19):
thank you guys for having this conversation. And you know,
at the end of I think it was the end
of the beginning of y'all's podcast, you asked me what
my pivot was, and so I want to know what
your guys pivot it was in life. So Fred, I'm
gonna start with you. Ben, I'm first up. You sure,
because you always are last at that last little thing.
So I'm making you go first step now, no pressure,

(48:40):
No pressure for me, Janna. It's really uh other than
my last pivot, which was an amazing pivot to start
this show. The pivot, I thought that was a great move.
It just opened my eyes on a lot. You know,
you can be friend guys and but you still have
to go back and take care your responsibilities. So uh,

(49:03):
that was the third strike for me where I've allowed
someone to get me comfortable within myself and actually take
advantage of me, you know, to a certain extent. My
first agent was a was a black guy who I
my My father didn't come back from the military and
talents of sophomore or junior in high school. We didn't

(49:25):
have a relationship when I was young. My mom didn't
know who my father was until later on, and we
did DNA tests all that stuff. He came back in
my life, but we still didn't have relationships. So when
I left college, the first guy, black guy, wanted to
be my agent. Sure find okay, he took advantage of

(49:46):
me put some of my first signing bonus in the
Punzi scheme. That was mistake number one, But I learned
a valuable Let's event, or at least I thought I
did um going forward, went with a Jewish guy. The
Jewish guys are good guys, they know money, et cetera.
Befriended me back at college. Long story short, that went south.

(50:08):
I lost some money, learned a lesson now that I
try and teach my children. Um and lastly the most
recent one by not having all of the business button
up prior to starting this podcast, which we have everything
button up. I love these guys, positive energy, the chemistry
is amazing. At leastion she does a great job along

(50:29):
with our in hounce attorney Johnny Williams. So we have
things button up, you know, and we're able to be
transparent with each other and things are moving good. But
I say all that to say, my my biggest pivot
for me in life it's, um, you know, just just
being more responsible, being an adult. Having those situations allowed

(50:52):
me to be a better father, a better husband, a
better friend. I'm always trying to teach through those things
where I m I talked finance. We don't get that
a lot in our communities. I come from this disadvantaged community,
Uh just a house, but we just didn't have financial
literacy in our household. I was the first millionaire. Uh

(51:15):
So learning these things and trying and giving them back
to my communities, to my family, my friends, uh to
upcoming athletes. I would say that's my biggest pivot because
I never thought I had to really know these things.
I thought I can just you know, hire people and
trust them and put them in position to do right

(51:36):
by me. But it didn't happen that way. So learning
and myself taking the time, and now I'm able to
give it back and I'm better for it. I'd say
that's my biggest pivot because I can give back a lot.
I love that. Thank you Channing, my little duet singer
of a Little Mermaid. Oh that was God? Have you working?

(51:59):
You what you're saying? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I got a
lot of praise. I appreciate you giving me that platform.
But no, um, my biggest pivot, I say. You know
a lot of people say retirement, because retirement it's it's
not easy. But we all three kind of had something
to fall into after retiring from football and that being
your life for so long. But when I really, when

(52:19):
you're asking, I think about it, obvious, honestly was kind
of life friends are like growing up, you know, getting married,
me my wife, having kids, like changing my changing that
aspect of life, like not hanging out as much anymore
and not you know, always going out calling the boys
in the morning, going out you know, to watch every game,
going and do this and more. Shiftings to being a father,
being responsible, giving those lessons we talked about today, like

(52:42):
really making an effort that when you're when we're going fishing,
and me and my family, my wife, we all fish
a lot when we're fishing, trying to have some meaningful
conversations as well as the fun. So you know, you're
sitting there, you're waiting riding the boat to get to
a fishing spot. We could talk about football, or we
could talk about something in life for five minutes, just
say a little something here there. So really that, um, yeah,
I'm getting married. My wife changed me a lot. I

(53:04):
didn't I never I didn't. I wanted to have kids,
but I didn't want to get married. It was weird
love dynamic in my mind. But once I found Asia,
once I found my wife, and like, you know, I
got somebody can talk to, and that can you know,
we do everything together, the finances, the mortgages, the investments, everybody.
I know, she knows on her whole entire life. I
never thought I would be there with another human and

(53:25):
just that that was just a big paper for me
and just a you know, like happily married man, Like
I really am a damn happily married man. That that's awesome.
It is man, you know, I bootcate Now I'm happy
with my bootcage. About the roads, I didn't talk about
walking down the street in Gamesville, barefoot bars, getting arrested.

(53:48):
He's a changed man that I was getting locked up
all kinds of stuff until I met my wife, Jenny.
I love that. Wow. I mean, not to lock up part,
but that your wife. You know, sometimes it takes a
special woman to lock you down in a different way, right, ye,
A very special one. Yeah. I Um, I guess it's

(54:10):
it's a hard question. Um. I think that like I'm
still pivoting, to be honest. Um, you know, you continue
like life is an evolution, you know, and I'm certainly
not great every place. I need to be great in life,
you know, and you continue to you know, you continue

(54:31):
to work, You continue to try to be better. You
try to you try to listen to the people that
are close to you. But you go through like so many,
like so many different phases in life. Uh. You know,
Channing mentioned retirement. Fred talked to you about the different
agents and the people that you know try to take
advantage of you. I think the biggest pivot for me

(54:52):
has been understanding and being okay with being who I am.
You know, I think we we always feel like we
have to be certain things or we have to show
a certain way, and we want to be perceived a
certain way. And the thing that changed for me probably
a few years ago was that, you know what, this

(55:13):
is who I am. I'm going to be consistent for
being that, and I'm gonna be it every day And
that way people will look at me and they may
not like it, they may not love it, but they'll
know who I am. Now they can look at me
and say, this is who Ryan Clark is, and this
is how I want to treat it. This is how
I want him to be a part of my life.

(55:35):
And I think that that was that was something that
that freed me to be honest, you know, to to
be able to be authentically you and not have the
fear of being rejected, right because I think it's always
so hard for us to truly be vulnerable and show
people who we are, because now if they don't accept us,

(55:56):
we feel like something's wrong with us, you know. Whereas
if we walk around and we're fake and we're trying
to make everyone happy, we may be accepted in every room,
but we're never truly ourselves. And so for me, it
was just waking up one day and being like, man, like,
this is it, you know, because I always had like
that chip on my shoulder, the underdog thing, not fast enough,

(56:18):
not big enough, all of these things my entire life.
So I always felt like I had to please people
around me and make people happy. And so it was
just finally getting to a point where I was like, nah,
you know what, I don't really care how do you
feel about but this is who God made me to be. Um.
It always needs to improve, right, and you always have

(56:39):
to be working to be better. But we kind of
are what we are guys, you know, and like it.
I'm gonna give you that same thing every single day.
I love that. Well. Fred Channing to Ryan, thank you
guys so much for coming on wind Down. It's been awesome.
I just adore you guys. I think you guys are amazing,
and I just think you for having the conversation and

(57:01):
being friends. No, we appreciate it. You put us in, Jenna,
you put us in like a whole new podcasting world
in like the first month and a half of our show.
Like just like when when people talk about that show,
you know, and I could be honest, I would be
really quick. I know, we gotta go. That was like,

(57:22):
that was a big deal for our conversation, right you
were you know, you were our first woman, and our
first woman was a white woman on a largely you know,
African American and black and minority supported show, you know,
and so it wore there were conversations that had to
be had about how we would be seen, and truly

(57:43):
like we all just got to a point where we
just like effort, you know. And it was and I'm
gonna be honest, it was you that made us feel
that happen. After we shot it and after we saw it,
we were all like, drop put it out it from
I'll be honest. You know. We talked about race on
here a lot. It went from it being a white

(58:04):
woman to being Janna, you know, And I think I
think it's haught. It taught us something. It's hard our
it's haught our subscribers and our followers something that every
story has a right to be told. And the fact
that you told your story on our platform and our

(58:25):
show in the way that you did, I'm telling you.
As soon as it was over, we was all like, yeah,
put that out like that's that's amazing. And it wasn't
because you was you know, it wasn't because you know
you were the white actors singer lady. You know, they
won the show and you were Janna Kramer like one
of the home girls. You know. You guys talked about

(58:47):
like what y'all can show your kids, Show your kids
that that a white woman who's been through a ton
of things sat down with three former football players that
were all black, and everybody had a connection. Everybody find
a commonality, everyone could have a conversation. That's what you

(59:09):
taught the world or everybody who watched our show that
you know what man like, what we look like matters,
but it's more about what we how we move, how
we relate, how we treat each other. And so thank
you so much. You know, if you ever need us,
we got you because you did something for us that
was amazing. Same same, same, like I feel all the

(59:31):
same love. So thank you, and yes I'm here and
I'm just like I'm just right boys, But seriously, guys,
thank you. And I'm going to make sure everyone is
listening to wind right now watches um and listens to
the Pivot. All right, thank you guys so much. Seriously, Okay,

(59:52):
I have a great money. Okay, I love them, just
them as with them, like I just like I I
just feel like they're like by like friends, like they
got back they do and I think they're back, like
I don't know. I'm just like I'm obsessed with them
so much. Such a great conversation. It's so good. It's

(01:00:14):
such a good conversation to have. I love it. Um,
I mean that's our show, guys, because that's like you
just can't even um, listen to the Pivot podcast where
you get your podcasts with Training crowder Fred Taylor, Ryan Clark,
their three amazing former professional football players, um, and they
talk about real deep stuff and again I really, um,
you should definitely listen back to the and watch the

(01:00:36):
episode that I did with them. I remember watching it too,
being like wow, like that was so good. It's a
good conversation. Um. But see you next week.