The Road to Healing

Jana sits down with Anne Blythe, director of the Betrayal Trauma Recovery support group. Anne shares her personal experience surviving abuse and opens up about how women can find peace and healing in their relationships. 

This conversation leads to some difficult memories for Jana and she opens up in a way we haven’t seen before.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Wine Down with Janet Kramer and I Heart Radio podcast. Easton.
I'm really bummed because I missed you in Nashville. You
were at Is it true that Ben Higgins got married?
Ben Higgins got married? The Bachelor tied the knot, finally
tied the knot? Um? So where was it at? Tell

(00:23):
us everything? It was at Reba McIntire's um former home her.
It's Lebanon, rodeo drill. I've been saying Lebanon for a week.

(00:45):
We actually ins in your defense, Eastern Sorry, in Easten defense.
How's the bote slip um? In Easton's defense? Is it
not Lebonon? Oh, it's Lebanon. That's so I've called it Lebanon. Wow,
Leon says the one person from National Exactly, I should

(01:07):
ask me next time Lebanon go on man. Yeah. I
don't know how much else I was mispronouncing now, but yeah,
it was this beautiful. You know, it was on like
a body of water. And I don't know if it
was a lake or just are a bond, but it was.
It was gorgeous. There's like four hundred people there, hundred people,
four people all this closest friends and family. They were

(01:30):
all of Bachelor Nation, all of Bachelor Nations people, I
don't what how many people do you have your wedding?
Oh gosh, Like I don't know, hud, it's expensive to
get married. How did you I had mine? My inlaws

(01:51):
made me invite like everyone I didn't even know. I mean,
there there was some drama with with with with you know,
not inviting certain people. But at the same time, like
when you are paying for the wedding, like who's paying
for four hundred people? Like that was like coming out
of my account. So I'm like, we're cutting the line man,
like under eighty, Like, don't under it because it's like
it's expensive four hundred people. Oh yeah. It was so

(02:14):
crazy and I was really it was not televised because
I would have understood that. I'm right, People magazine got
the exclusive. There are a lot of flowers, a lot
of flowers, so just how many how much money four
hundred people of flowers would be to feel like I was,

(02:36):
I'm sure it was a high budget. Holy Holy. I
thought there was gonna be like a sit down dinner thing.
So I was all nervous because I'm like, I don't know.
The only people I know from here are bachelor people
and they don't want to talk to me, you know.
They did, they were very nice, but they didn't do
a sit down dinner. They did like a buffet thing
and then this big hall and everyone just kind of
roamed around and you could get like pizza and pasta

(02:57):
and just kind of hang out. That's because there was
four hundred people. I sit down dinner for four Yeah, no, no,
this was the way to do it. And everyone had
a really good time. There's lots of dancing. The band
was great. Ben and Jess looked studying. Ben had thirteen groomsmen,
which I thought was really funny and cool. But when

(03:20):
they came out, it was like a clown car, like
the just more people kept coming down. She too, she
had like eighty. It was it was uneven. So I'm
like a fan of that. I like the evenist. There's
no way I could do that, really, that would drive
Thinking about that gives me anxiety. Why just looking it

(03:40):
up there? Uneven? I can't like that really, yes, because
I think there's like I mean, I don't have like
I have a very small queendom, so like and I
know in the past, like someone would want more, and
I'm like well, like I don't have like I'm going
to start. I'm pulling people from like from from second

(04:02):
people to be don't you remember me I went to
kindergarten with you and be in my wedding. Thanks. But
I mean now I feel like it's kind of cool
and people are like screw it, like I'm going to
have and now like I feel like i'd have like
a queendom up there. You don't have a lot of people.
I would have a lot of people. And I'm here
for it because now everyone's like rooting for happiness. Oh

(04:24):
I can't wait to plan this, wait for fun. But
like it really that would bother you, like if it
was set like I mean, I'll get over it. If
you can't, if you were a future groom cannot come
up with the same amount, I'll get over it. Oh God,
I cant even think about that. I was gonna ask,

(04:46):
is that going through your mind? Like, are you already
picking up bridesmaids for okay, mark for the next one?
I mean no, but like just again, it's just such
so weird. Like I was having this conversation with Katherine,
I was talking about something I'm like, I have not
like had a boyfriend, not saying I have a boyfriend.

(05:08):
I'm just saying, like I'm not saying anything, but I'm
just saying. What I'm saying is what I'm saying. What
I'm saying is is like, like what are you saying?
What I'm saying is it's just a very weird thing,
like to be you know, married for however seven something
year or you know six seven and seven together and

(05:29):
it's like to them have to go do like never
thinking that you'd be like, oh, I'm gonna meet someone's
parents or I'm gonna they're gonna meet my kids or
like someone else. It's like a very it's just strange.
And so I would never think, given my Elizabeth Taylor
background of marriages, that I would even think about it.
But now here's something. Laugh all you want, bitches, He's like,

(05:53):
but here's the thing. Now Now I'm like, I feel
like because everyone is so invested in my love life,
from friends to listeners, like I want to invite the
entire Wine down like viewership, like I think we all
are like rooting for like you're gonna have like a
hundred and thousands and thousand people I'm here for that.

(06:15):
That would be so funny. That would be so much fun.
Like I want an open bar for everybody. I don't
know the money, but for exactly what I'm saying, I've
don't have the money for it, but like if we
can get sponsors, if we can, like you know, like
figure it out, making a live podcast kind of thing,
podcasting while you gave birth. Just can't. I can't feel

(06:39):
my lives. I remember where I was listening to that podcast.
Where were you? I was in my car coming out
of therapy. Then my life is good. I think she's dying.
Table Yeah. She tells someone that I'm a hypochondriac. Am
I hypochondriac? I didn't say the words you're a hypochondriac.

(07:03):
I said, you think you're going to die? Very often?
I do. It's true a hypochondriac. She does, like often
she asked, am I going to die? I do ask?
I take three Adavia while I die? And the person
that I said this too, was like, do you truly

(07:26):
think you're gonna die? Or are you just saying that?
I think I have a fear of it because the kids,
so like every time I get on a plane, that's
fair every time, I you know, but I mean obviously
like driving is. But and then I'm like, you're looking
down at my phone. I'm like, what am I doing? Like?
But I think I have a fear of the unknown,
of what is, Like like when I had when I

(07:47):
walked around for step Strap for a month, I was like,
I'm dying of cancer, like and I'm afraid of like
the what what those those things that could happen. I
think that's normal. I would have felt that way. I mean,
out really fast time out. This girl Catherine will do
an entire body scan to make sure that she's not
dying of something. So like, here's the difference. I just

(08:14):
like to know what's going on. But if I'm in
a situation like taking three ad bills, I'm not going
to ask Joe about very advill But I'm saying I
think it was fair for you to be scared about.
But I did ask, thank you very much. That was terrifying.
But I did ask about taking me in moxicillin with
wine because I'm obviously still in moxicillans. And it also
did not matter how many of the people that she

(08:36):
loves and trust the most tell her she's fine. She
has to have the fans tell her if it's really
fine or not. I just like, you know, we asked Google,
did anyone tell you you would die? They said, and
I did. I then made my choice. You were there
with me. I'm proud of you. I didn't know they
told you that you couldn't do it. Oh oh man, um, well,

(09:01):
I'm glad you had fun in Lebanon. What is it Lebanon?
And and you know, I went to Nashville for like
the first because I came to Nashville once before to
hook up the microphones room. But I didn't go to
like Nashville proper, you know, like I went to like
I went down Broadway and did all that. I went

(09:21):
to the Country Music Hall of Fame. I really play time.
So you've been here twice now and I've not seen Yes,
I've been in the state of Tennessee twice now. And
he did ask to hang not for the wedding. I
saw it on Instagram Story of my life. That's hard.
By the way. I know we have a guest joining
us soon, but it's something when you see something on

(09:42):
Instagram that I'm not saying that. You know, she wasn't
actually expecting it to text Easton, but like Fomo when
some because there was someone that did come in for
the wedding that I was like, Oh, I'm kind of bump.
They didn't reach out to me. It's interesting what what like?
What that? Like? What is that? What is it for
you that? What social media does? You just feel left
out and you might make assumptions and you might like

(10:04):
feel away, But I think social media contributes to that
for sure. If we'd have social media, I wouldn't know, right.
I mean, it's interesting because Easton did text me, was
like I'd like to see you, and I was like, oh,
that's so cool. And then when I saw like what
it was, I was like, oh, why didn't that person
text me? And She's like yeah, kind of like it
was the thought you wanted to see me. It's like that,

(10:26):
like I don't know, just does that make me? Yeah?
You know, I get that and something. So Katherine and
I were exchanging d M s, and something I really
appreciated from her was she's like, how long are you
in talent? And I'm like, Oh, we're just doing this wedding.
Then We're going back like oh, have fun. And I
feel like if I had said I'm in town for
until Tuesday, you would have been like, let's hang out.

(10:47):
I like to think that would have happened. Would have
I was going to see if you wanted to go
get coffee, Little coffee day. It would have been so fun.
But then I was like, Okay, we'll have fun. You're
got one more night here. Well, we're gonna come back
real soon because I'm in love with that place. It's
so great different time, it's so fun. I was. I
was texting Tanya rad two and I was like, oh
my god, you're in Franklin, And she's like, that is

(11:08):
the most precious little town, Like it looks like it
looked like her and her boyfriend had a great time too, which,
by the way, I'm she's someone, for example, that I
have been so rooting for, so like to see her
so happy after kind of the you know struggle that struggles,
but like that that you know, finding the one, and
it's just been like, I'm it's so nice to see

(11:29):
her so happy. It's so exciting. She's so happy and
he's such a cool guy. I'm just they're they're the best.
I'm so happy for her. Nah, I love it. Well,
we have um a guest joining us um Katherine do
you want to give the rundown on this, uh this guest? Okay,
so we have and lithe I'm really excited about this one. UM,

(11:53):
tell me more. Why Well, because she has So it's
like a support group where you get on it's a
support group and it's for betrayal, trauma recovery and a
podcast and all this good stuff. So it's basically for
people who have had, you know, trauma from abusive relationships physically, emotionally, UM,

(12:15):
sexual trauma. Very very interesting. So yeah, so is she
is she here? We have her in the waiting room,
so let's um, let's take a break and then we'll
get her on. Oh great, Hello, Hi, Hi Anne? Hi,

(12:40):
how are you? I'm great? How are you good? I'm Janna.
This is Catherine. Hi, how are you? And you um
your host of the Betrareal Trauma Recovery podcast, which I'm
very excited to start listening to. UM. And also you
you offer daily online support groups for women victims of
emotional abuse. UM. I'm just curious before we kind of

(13:01):
get into it, what is your background and how you
got into what you're now doing, Like was it from
a personal experience or I just I would love to
know that side first. Yeah, So I worked in the
porn Addiction UM porn anti porn movement for about ten
years and then my ex got arrested, well he was

(13:24):
my husband at the time, and UM. At that point
I quit all my jobs. I had been working with
other anti porn slash porn recovery UM communities, quit my
job and started studying abuse a lot. And then I
started seeing the overlay of these two things and thought, oh,

(13:44):
we need to be right here in the middle and
talk about this. So I started podcasting about that aspect
of it, and then women from all over the world
started contacting me, and then we got coaches and it
just kind of grew from there. So that's sort of
my I have a master's degree in education, so personal
experience plus was your ex also abusive? Uh huh yeah, yeah,

(14:08):
emotionally and psychologically abusive, which also is can be the like,
it's all awful, but it's just that for some reason
has such a hold. Yeah. And in terms of the
pornography use, UM, I had told him that are my relationship,
that my sexual boundaries were no porn use, monogamy, you know,

(14:28):
stuff like that, which he happily agreed. To said that
that's what he wanted as well. And then um later
found out he was using porn, which people don't realize
the sexual coercion because I didn't I didn't have the
ability to consent under those circumstances. And so, um that
those are the types of things that I really like

(14:49):
talking about. Is that to him, he's got this addiction
and he has his problems and they're caused by whatever,
you know, and so to him it's like this is
these are the reasons for it. But to the victims,
the reasons don't really matter. The actual thing that they're
experiencing a sexual coercion, The actual thing they're experiencing a
psychological abuse if they don't know what their reality is,

(15:11):
if they don't know you know, oh, i'm I'm I'm
with a husband who has a double life, you know
that type of thing. Um, If he's looking straight at
her face and saying, no, I don't use parn I'm
not having an affair. Um, it's not just him acting
out in this addiction. It's also psychological abuse because she's like, oh, okay,
you know, there's no way for her to fare it

(15:31):
out reality in that case, And um, so that that's
the betrayal traumor recovery kind of lives there and what
that actually means to a victim and how how that's
going to affect her and her self esteem and her
life and stuff like that. So it's more coming at
these issues from the woman the victims point of view

(15:54):
than the addics point of view. I have a question
around that, UM, And I like, I have to be
really careful with how I word certain things. UM. So
I I'm recently divorced an addict UM and you know,
multiple affairs, and I think, UM, in my experience where

(16:18):
I have had a tough time with UM, the with
it with all of that is is where for all
those years just being made to feel crazy right, um
and to this day still not feeling like, um that

(16:38):
I'm still made to feel that way. Yeah, And I'm like,
but I'm like, I've sat with my theoris and like,
but I'm like, well, how does he not get that
he literally lied every day? Right? And it's a it's
like that it's at that weird. But then then I'm
the crazy Like it's it's very like I'm I'm having
like the that's like been the hardest thing for me too,

(16:59):
And I'm like, how does he hate me? Right? When
that was the life that like I was just you know,
it was an unsteady ground effort. I was lied too daily,
Like it was like a constant like warfare of lies,
of manipulation and you know, deceit and miss you know,
distrust and like it. So it's like I'm trying to

(17:19):
like grieve and grow and heal and learn, but yet
I'm still trapped in certain areas around I think, more
so than the sub more than just like the manipulation
and abuse in the gas lighting. So DARVO is when
you deny the abuse and then you attack the victim,
and then there's r v O for DARVO, and then

(17:41):
you reverse the victim and offender role. So essentially, like
let's take a big case like Bill Cosby. That's a
easy one. So you've got multiple victims coming forth saying, hey,
this is what happened, right, and instead of admitting to
it and apologizing and taking accountability and going to prison,
justify believe because of what he did, he denies what happened,

(18:03):
and he attacks the victims and then reverses the victim
and offender role and says, actually I'm the victim. I'm
the one who is being harmed because these women are
just trying to get money from me, or they're just
trying to ruin my reputation or whatever they're doing. Right, So,
I think in them in the general sense when it
comes to psychological abuse and emotional abuse, that's where women

(18:26):
get so confused because the abuser is never going to
admit there an abuser, and they're going to accuse the
victim of abuse. Also, they're going to say that the
victims response to the abuse like whoa, like these are
all the things that happened. Then they are gonna just say, no,

(18:48):
she's crazy, that didn't happen, those things aren't true, you
know whatever, to try and avoid accountability. So that is
part of the abuse, and that's not often recognized. In fact,
it's hardly ever recognized. Instead, I would say the general
population and your running the mill, not not your therapist particularly,
I just mean therapists in general. They'll be they'll hear

(19:11):
his side of the story and her side of the story,
and then they'll think, and again, this is assuming the
males the perpetrator and the females the victim. And I
know that's not always the case, but because that's the
population I work with, I'll talk in that gender segregated
way today. But you've got they think that the truth
is somewhere in the middle, and the truth is not

(19:31):
in the middle. The truth is that the victim is
telling the truth and the perpetrator is trying to get
out of accountability. And so the stories he's going to
tell in and of themselves are psychological abuse. So he's
able to manipulate in gaslight, therapists, clergy, friends, family, everyone
around you in order and they don't know it, but

(19:52):
they're unwittingly also abusing the victim by telling her she's crazy,
or you're blowing this out of purport shian or what.
He's an addict and now you're going to say you
were sexually coerced, right, or now you're gonna say this
about about him, And so I think it just gets
so muddled that it's hard to see that all of

(20:13):
that is abuse. And unfortunately, in the pornography addiction recovery community,
the abuse isn't really talked about as much as perhaps
the reason why he's an addict. You know, he was
blah blah blah, or he feel shame or you know,
some something like that. Um, And I just think that
that discredits victims so much because you know, victims feel shame,

(20:36):
Victims have had a hard time, victims, haven't you know,
victims have been through difficult things. And we don't cheat
on our husbands, we don't use porn. You know. It's
like wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, just take a step
back for a minute and just kind of consider this
whole picture of the fog of all of this and
what's really going on, because there are plenty of men

(20:58):
who have had that fildhoods who have felt shame, who
have um, you know done. I'll had had a hard
time in all different kinds of ways, and they cope
with it, maybe by eating ice cream, or maybe they
cope with it by going for a run. They don't
all not all men cope with shame by having an affair.
They don't, and everybody feels shamed. So I think that

(21:21):
the pornography addiction recovery world does not help victims understand
the truth of what they're really experiencing. And that is
why I do what I do to try and shed
light on the abuse that's happening so that women can
get to safety sooner, um, regardless of how their situation
turns out, right, I mean, maybe he'll be like, oh, yeah,

(21:42):
this is abusive. I'm going to stop, you know. But UM,
I think it's important to really label it accurately. So
the abuser, whatever per cent of the time, is usually
not going to acknowledge that they're an abuser. They're going
to gaslight, which is obviously a huge word now days. UM,

(22:02):
So how do you suggest, I mean, I know you
have these groups and you have, but what is your
recommendation for people for these victims to realize they're being
gas lit, to realize that it's abuse, and to set
boundaries to not allow that. That is really really hard. UM.

(22:23):
I think the hardest position to be in would be
the new wife of this guy. UM and I let's
talk about that for just a second. Then we can
step back to maybe the original victim if we want
to call it that, or the first victim. But what UM,
A new victim will here, like the second wife. Let's

(22:45):
call her fer a minute, healed, she was unhealthy. Um,
she she's just a gold digger. Maybe I'll say that,
maybe she'll say, Maybe he'll say, I it's true. I'm
not perfect. I've got problems. I hadn't a fair I
looked at something like that. He might say something like that,
but like she can't forgive. She's just really bitter and angry.
She hates men, she's a lesbian. They might hear that, um,

(23:10):
they might hear um all kinds of things, right, And
so this new victim doesn't realize that this is abuse
in and of itself, that she's already being abused, and
she thinks to herself, I'm not controlling. I'm kind and understand.
You know, she didn't understand me. She was controlling. Whatever.
I'm not controlling. I'm understanding, like I I empathize, Oh

(23:32):
I get it, like, oh, you went through this hard time.
I'm so sorry. So they start out this relationship not
they don't know it, but not feeling safe to say, hmm,
you know, I actually am not controlling, but I don't
feel comfortable with this situation because if they speak up,
then he'll be like, oh, don't be controlling, like my ex.

(23:53):
Don't be you know, Oh you're just like super high
maintenance woman or something, right, And so that is actually
where that abuse starts. But it's so subtle and it
feels like he's saying, you're amazing, You're incredible. I know
you would never be like her, and that is a
real big trap for women. So um, I don't know

(24:15):
how to recognize it at first, but one of the
biggest red flags are those types of things that a
man might say about a woman. Um. And one easy
way which nobody does because they think this X is crazy, right,
they think his former girlfriend is cuckoo, so they're like,
I'm not going to talk to her because she's wacko
because of what he told me. So UM, one way

(24:38):
is to talk to that woman to say, that's really interesting,
now that we're getting more serious, I'd actually like to
talk to your X. Can you give me your number?
I'd like to take her to lunch, um that is,
and and actually believe what she's telling you. That is
really hard when you're in love with someone and you
think he's amazing and you think everything's going well. But

(24:59):
I would say, um, if he's speaking badly about a
former husband or sorry, a former spouse or a former girlfriend,
that is a really big That would be probably one
of the biggest first red flags. I think the other
thing is just know that like the grooming part is

(25:19):
part of the abuse. So this is what I'd like
to educate women about. So you're in a relationship, you
think it's amazing, and you hear these horror stories and
you think, oh, well, I'm so glad you'd never do that.
He's so understanding and you know, wonderful, and he's not
that kind of guy. So with abuse, the grooming parts
are abusive. When he puts on that show of like, hey,

(25:42):
I'm amazing, you're amazing, our relationship is good, I'm healthy, la,
that is abuse in and of itself. That's a lot
of women will think of, like Jacqueline Hyde, right, like, oh,
he's amazing, and then we have this like bad week
and it's so weird and I don't know what's going
on and I'm so confused. So they kind of go
back and forth. They might find porn, or they might
find out he's been having an affair and be like, wow,

(26:03):
this is so weird, like what what is happening? And
it's really confusing and he seems sort of like jecklen Hyde.
Then they don't realize that both of those sides to
him are the abuse. So when a woman is thinking, oh,
this is so great, he's still understanding, you know whatever,
take a little bit of a step back and consider
is what I'm experiencing a true, healthy, loving, partnered relationship.

(26:25):
Does he actually see me as an equal? Does he
actually see our relationship um as a partnership? Or am
I being exploited and groomed? And in order to find
out if that's the case, you have to take a
little bit of a step back and be willing to,
you know, set a few boundaries, tell them how you
really feel, you know, things like that, and it takes

(26:45):
a lot of time. So I always tell women to
slow down a little bit, you know, like, don't just
jump right into relationships. Try to take it a little
bit slow so that you can see. But sometimes there's
just no way to see the um, the ugly side
of the abuse. The only thing you can see is
that grooming side for a while, because they're not going
to show that side until they feel like they have

(27:07):
complete control. So, you know, red flags are tough. It's
I think more than that, just giving women permission to
know that they might miss them and it's okay, it's
all right, But when they start seeing them, like pay
attention and then don't feel bad, don't don't get down
on yourself. Don't be like, oh, why didn't I see it?
You know, because some of these guys are really really

(27:29):
good at it and and seeing it. It's going to
be hard, and it's not your fault. Right If if
we tell women you should have seen the signs, you
should have known you were being lied to, you know,
you should have done this, then that's a form of
victim blaming, right. So as as prepared as we try
to be, as educated as we try to be, there's

(27:51):
it's just kind of a crapshoot at times, and I think, um,
just giving victims grace to know it's okay, we've all
done it, we've all been there, we might all do it,
and you know, but at least we know what we're
looking at later down the road if we're educated. What
if you get out of an abusive relationship, whatever that
abuse looked like, and m there's still a form of

(28:15):
abuse there, or abuse between friends or abuse, but you know,
whatever it may be. But let's say you're not in
that marriage anymore and there's there's still a form of abuse.
How do you I mean, obviously boundaries are important, but
how do you try and get past that? Like, I

(28:37):
just think it's such a hard It can just take
control of your life. So it's like, how do you
get past that? How do you set up those boundaries
to not allow that abuse to come in? That's really hard.
I think a very common myth about abusive relationships is
that divorces the solution, or breaking up as a solution,
and it is in some ways. If you do not

(28:59):
share child run with this person. Once the divorce is final,
or even before the divorce is final, you can institute
no contact boundaries. You can block them on your phone,
you can you can never talk to that person again
if you choose to. You can block their friends and family.
Have you guys heard of the term flying monkeys? You
know that term? Okay, So that would be the people
who believe his side of the story, and in doing

(29:22):
that they perpetuate the abuse. Um accidentally, right, they don't
know that they're doing that, but they're so um when
when you share children so so so not sharing children,
I guess some people are think of their dogs or
their pets, maybe in that same that same category where

(29:42):
they like share custody of a dog or something. So
Apart from that, I would say, um, if you're in
that situation, if you can't get new kids, um, I'm
not a dog person, so I don't want to say
to all these people who love their dogs, just get
a new dog. Maybe that sounds super harsh. Um, but
if you if you can go on contact. If you can't,

(30:06):
then you are going to be a victim of abuse
for a long time. Now. Being a victim of abuse
is a really interesting term. People don't like it. They
don't they like a lot of people prefer survivor. And
for women who share children, they haven't survived anything. It's
like they're still on the Titanic. The Titanic is still sinking,

(30:26):
you know, they haven't actually walked to dry ground. So
I actually like the word victim in that case. The
survivor sort of implies that it's over right. So for perpetual,
ongoing victims of abuse who share children, who are pretty
good at setting boundaries, it is just a tough road

(30:47):
like period, and so it's really important to learn what
boundaries you can set, what you can do. And then
the awesome thing is the farther along you get in
your healing and the stronger you get and the more
confident you get the um, the more the fog will lift.
And so you'll still actually be experiencing abuse, right, I'll

(31:10):
still be lying, you'll still be gas lighting, You'll still
have people meet you who think you're crazy. That will
still happen. But because the fog has lifted and you're
healed and you feel confident, um, it's it doesn't harm
you as much. So an example that I give is,
maybe before you've realized what's happening, he's stepping on your
foot all the time, just to use a metaphor, and

(31:30):
other people are stepping on your foot all the time,
and you're you're learning and you're growing, and you're asking
him not to step on your foot, and you're saying, hey,
this hurts, don't step on my foot. But then later
you're like, oh, I just buy steel toad boots. You
buy your still toad boots, you put them on. He's
still you know, comes to a family function or something
happens and he comes over and he steps on your

(31:51):
foots that's what he's gonna do, but it's not gonna
hurt as much. You're just gonna be like whatever, you know,
and he is going to be like, this doesn't work anymore. Man,
I'm trying to step on her foot, but she doesn't react.
She doesn't like, I'm not getting what I like out
of this, and he'll stop stepping on your foot, hopefully eventually.
That's the theory. I've been divorced for six years now,

(32:14):
and uh, he's still trying to step on my foot.
So so I'm hoping eventually that will subside. But it's
something that society doesn't really understand. It's something that society
still thinks, like, well, they're divorced, what's wrong with her?
Why can't she forgive? Or why can't she just move on?
Or something like that. And I think it's because they
don't recognize she's still being actively victimized. Um, she's still

(32:39):
being lied to, she's still being gas lit. And unless
that stops, it's gonna be pretty hard for her to
like want to be in the same room with him.
It's gonna be pretty hard for her not to bristle
a little bit. I mean, nobody would say to a
rape victim who had been raped on the street by
a stranger, Um, what's wrong with her? Why can't she

(33:00):
talk to this stranger? You know? Everyone's like, oh, I
get it, I get it. But then when it comes
to someone who's been abused by their husband for ten
years and finally realize what's happened, and then sudden she's
supposed to be able to be in the same room
with him, like and through all the sexual coccersion and stuff,
And I'm like, that's a lot of pressure to put

(33:21):
on victims. The abuser doesn't mind. The abuser wants that interaction,
they want the chaos, They like causing that pain to her.
So they're not in a hurry to move on anytime
soon in terms in terms of just causing chaos in
her life. And um, they'll look really happy and smiley

(33:42):
and you know during the thing. So so it's hard.
You're I'm seeing are you okay? She's having a hard
time this, this is what you're going through. I needed
to hear. Sorry, you didn't sign up for this today

(34:03):
or did you? Did you know you were signing up
for me? It's good taken out. It was interesting when
you touched on all the different types of abuse, you know,

(34:28):
the grooming that all of the I think people just
see abuse as either physical or emotional, like plain and
simple that's all there is. And I think, um, I
think it's people need to to hear that and to
know that there's all forms of abuse and it's you know,
it can happen at any point. I think the part

(34:51):
that's hard for people to understand is that physical abuse
doesn't happen in a silo. So if you've been physically assaulted,
you have also been emotionally abused and psychologically abused, Like
the things I'm talking about happening every emotionally abusive relationship,
in every psychologically abusive relationships. So if people think of

(35:12):
abuse as this thing right here and then they're like, well,
he's nice to her and he's super cool and he's
educated and you know whatever there, they don't know that
that is that's abuse, that's what it is. They just
they've only been educated and not like like this much,

(35:33):
and so they think the abuse is just this one
little part and they don't realize that that's actually every
abuse victims experience. I don't mean the details are all
the same. I don't mean that the situations are the same,
but I do mean that, Um, we interact with abusive
men all the time, and we don't know because of

(35:54):
these other parts of it, right of the grooming and
all the other parts. And um, that's also why they
continue to get away with it because people listen to
them and think, Oh, what a poor guy. This is
so sad. I feel so bad for him, and they
don't recognize that he is literally the typical abuser, Like

(36:15):
he's not some special case. He's not, um, he's not
like a good abuser, or he's not like you know,
I don't know how to describe that. What I'm trying
to say is that's just abuse. That's what it looks like.
And UM, people really don't want to think that the
person that they know, that they've known for a long

(36:37):
time is an abuser. There's there's a very heavy weight
to the word abuser that people feel really uncomfortable with
because it's it's awful to be in a victim because
you think like, I didn't think I was like that.
I didn't think I'd ever put up with that, you know,
that kind of thing. And then it's awful to also
think like, oh, is he ever going to change? Like

(37:00):
is he ever going to be able to have um,
like a healthy life? You know, questions like that that
are really hard to wrap our heads around and you know,
we don't have the answers to those questions yet, so um,
but for victims, it's there's no way to know. So
I just don't want women to blame themselves or to
feel bad but they didn't see it coming. Yeah, what

(37:22):
do you do with um? Like um, like wanting to
keep the peace for the kids, but also it's you
want to have good boundaries, but then also you want
to have um family functions together and be a family,

(37:44):
and but yet that usually ends having like emotional warfare
with myself. How do you how do you handle like
doing both those things when both can be when they're
both I don't know. I guess that how do you
how do you how can you do both? Or like
how do you separate? Or because you know, the kids,

(38:05):
My kids are my life, you know, I always want
them to be happy, and is there a way to
be able to separate the past or you know, because
to them the past has is done and that's in
my experience, they say that's the past, like now we're
here now, like get over it? Um? And how old

(38:27):
are your kids? Six and three? Yeah? Um? The cool
thing is you get to decide, You get to navigate
this in a way that works for you, and it's
going to take you some time to figure out what
you really like and what really brings you peace your goal.

(38:47):
But I don't want to be the bitch. I don't
want to be there, like, so it's like I'm like
trying to be kind and like, oh, yeah, you can
come like but but then it's like how it feels later,
It doesn't It doesn't feel good knowing that. I still
feel like I still want the apology, even though in
my experience that person has said, you know, I've apologized
a million times, but I'm like, but you really haven't
like to your in the true empathy, right, So let's

(39:12):
talk about the I don't want to make him mad
or I don't want to appear crazy, or I don't
want to appear to be you know this awful like
raunchy woman that for me, Yeah, exactly. So on that note,
I remember one day I said to my mom, like,
I can't write in that he's gonna get mad, and

(39:33):
she was awesome and said, and of course you can.
He's mad anyway, and I was like, oh, like, no
matter what I do is gonna get mad. So I'm
just gonna be myself like that. For me, that was like,
oh done. You know, not that I did that after that,

(39:55):
but just realizing that this um trying to avoid being
the difficult woman, trying to appear to be the ideal
woman that society wants you to be, which means that
apparently you smile and you know whatever it is you're

(40:16):
supposed to do is abuse in and of itself, right,
So when you think those things to yourself, I can't
say what I really think. I can't have what I
really want, I can't um be safe in my own home,
you know, whatever it is, And this is going to
be a journey for you. So I'm not trying to
say like I don't have any answers for you. So

(40:37):
I hope that that comes across that this is just
sort of more of a brainstorming type of idea. But um,
maybe consider that sometimes those things that are keeping you
from saying, like I really actually don't want him to
come over. I would have a better time and I
would feel closer to my kids, and I would feel
more peace if he didn't come over. And I don't

(40:59):
feel comfortable me he's here and I don't like it,
and think and that's okay, that's okay. Why why is
the victims so or the why why is the person
so afraid of the reaction of the of the person
of the other person, Because because it's abuse, because he
has abused you to the point where you don't want

(41:24):
to do that thing. I mean, think about the control
that that wields. Right your own internal dialogue that you
have that you did not know was the abuse talking.
It's not actually you talking, it's the abuse talking. And
it's not just from him, by the way, It's from
a lot of different men. It's from a lot of
different things going on. Right. So women have accidentally, like

(41:48):
sort of um absorbed this misogyny from all over the
place and are now like, wait a minute, wait a minute,
who am I and what do I want? Now? That's
why I say this is a personal journey, because you
might find that you actually, um like it better. It's
better for you, it's better for your kids, even though
it might be uncomfortable. You might think, Okay, even though

(42:12):
I know these abusive even though I know these things
are gonna happen and I'm gonna get a little hurt. Um,
I would prefer that he come over for these other reasons. Right, So,
so one of the things I encourage victims to do
is maybe like journal a little bit, right, some pros
and cons. Here are all the pros of doing this thing.
Here are all the cons of doing this thing right.
And then also write the results of what happens in

(42:33):
an experiment a little because one thing an abuser doesn't
want you to do is they don't want you to experiment.
They don't want to they don't want you to tell
them what you really think. Um. They want to be
able to do what they want, regardless of how it
makes you feel. So considering like how do I feel?
Do I feel comfortable those types of things, and start

(42:54):
asserting yourself in different ways depending on how you feel.
And again, there aren't any right or wrong answers here,
but um, I just want women to consider that all
these things holding them back from saying I'm not comfortable,
I don't want this. Um no, you can't come over.
Whatever the thing is is a lot of the time
it's abuse. I'm so proud of my seven year old

(43:17):
daughter who um says I'm uncomfortable. I am not comfortable
with this all the time now, And it can be
anything and she's like, I don't feel comfortable, and even
to me sometimes I'm like, hey, let's go for a walk,
and she'll say, Mom, I'm not comfortable. I need a
jacket or whatever. You know, it's just whatever, And I
think good for you. Like being able to express what

(43:38):
you're comfortable with is part of abuse as healing from this,
because that is part of coming back to yourself, and
it takes time to figure out what you really want
and what you don't really want. And I know a
lot of women who are able to Um, I'm not
like this, so I just want to put that out there.
But UM, a lot of women who are able to

(44:00):
do family functions with their abusers, and they choose to
do that knowingly, knowing the pros and cons. I am,
I don't. I don't. I blocked him on my phone.
I blocked him on my email. I only contact mine
through our family wizard if we're in the same room.
I do not speak to him. UM, and I feel
more comfortable at my so just depending on and I

(44:22):
don't care. Like at this point he's like, oh, she
won't speak to me, and then he'll tell people. You know,
I like, I walked in and Um, he doesn't speak
to me either, so that's fine. But if he if
he lied and told someone, yeah, well we're in the
same room and I tried to talk to her and
she wouldn't say anything something like that, Um, that would
be true. But also I'm okay with that. I'm like, yeah,

(44:43):
I'm not going to talk to him because every time
I talked, literally every time I have talked to him,
which has maybe been four times in the last six
years or I don't know, you know, six times, he's
lied to my face. Like right then, every like, there
has not been a time when he hasn't lied to
my face. Here's an example. I was at a parent
teacher conference. I walked over to him and said, you

(45:06):
cannot be at my parent teacher conference. You need to
make your own appointment. And he said, no, this is
my appointment. And I was like no, because I know
I made the appointment, right, so I know he's gaslighting me.
So I'm like, no, if that's not true, this is
my appointment. And he's like, no, it's mine. I made it.
And I'm like, I said, you're lying, I know it's
my appointment. You cannot come to my appointments and then
I walked off, and then later in the hall, he

(45:28):
came up and put his hand on my shoulder, all
nice and said, UM, and I just I just wish
we could get along. I got the nicest you know
look on his face, and I said, we will never
get along until you tell the truth, you take accountability,
and you clean up your mess. Goodbye, And I just
walked off. But I'm like, I'm I'm not I'm not

(45:50):
going to try to get along with you. You lie
to my face every time I talked to you. Um,
your emails are full of lies, your messages are full
of lies. I have no desire to like pretend like
it's okay now. I feel comfortable there with my personality
and like the you know stuff I have going on,
and a lot of other women they don't feel comfortable there,

(46:11):
like they wouldn't like that, so they so the cool
thing about UM healing is that you get to discover
how you feel, how you want to do it. And
there are women I respect so much and I think
they're doing it right and they don't do it like
I do, which is fine, um so, but I but
I just want to give women permission to do it. However,

(46:33):
they want. You know, if you don't want to talk
to them, you can tell them to your face or
to his face, or you don't have to Actually, don't
do this if you don't want to talk to him.
If you don't want to talk to someone, don't go
up to them and tell them you don't want to
talk to them. I always think that's pretty funny. If
you don't want to talk about just block them on
your phone, you know, like like you and let them
say what they're gonna say. That gives me like hives though,

(46:54):
because I'm just so afraid of reactions, Like it's just
literally gives me like from from anybody, from anybody in
my past, Like I'm afraid of their reaction. And I
know that stems from my past abuse relationships, but I
just still like, I don't know, I'm I just always
want to keep the peace, and you know, and and
that is the effect of abuse, and that's the purpose

(47:15):
of abuse, and that's the effect, right. The purpose of
the abuse is um get a woman to do something
she's uncomfortable with, and if she doesn't do it, make
everybody thinks she's crazy and punish her for it. Essentially,
that's what abuse is So when you say it gives

(47:36):
me high, is because I don't want to, you know, like,
I don't want to be yelled at or whatever he does.
I don't want to cause problems, right, that kind of
a thing. That is the abuse talking. Now, I'm not
saying that you should do it. That's again it's up
to you, but just remember that a lot of these
things that you're thinking is that is actually the abuse,

(47:58):
and the effect that it's trying to get is for
you to comply. Um. I have a coin for abuse victims.
It's awesome, and on one side it says I will
not comply and it's not gonna feel good to go
against an abuser because you're gonna get flat back, right.

(48:18):
So a lot of women we'll be like, well, it
just didn't feel right, and I felt really uncomfortable and
I just I got high, you know whatever. Like it's
just like the most awful feeling in the world because
you do not want to do it, um, and you
don't have to, but you there are ways of not
complying safely that you might feel comfortable with that you
might discover and say, Okay, well, I don't want to

(48:39):
really want to say this to his face because I'm
really nervous, but I know he's going to be here
and I know he's gonna show up, So instead of
saying anything about it, I think I'm actually just going
to pack up the car and go, you know, and
I won't be around um or other methods of not
complying that aren't so obvious to him maybe or maybe
aren't so in his space. UM So that you can

(49:00):
start getting out of your own head when it comes
to abuse and separate that out so that he's not
still abusing you in your head. Like I find the
abuse victims are still abused in their head by their
abuser years after, even though he's not saying anything to them. Well,
it's probably just from all the mental or the you know,

(49:21):
the verbal abuse from years prior that they just I know,
in my past, like I've I've believed those things from
my past, abusers have been like, oh, well they said
I'm this, so I'm that right. They said I'm crazy,
and I guess I'm crazy. They said I'm not worth it, Okay,
then I guess I'm not, you know, and the next
person and that's a kind of curious for the next time,

(49:43):
Like how do you, you know, because of my past situations,
like how how do I allow? Because it's almost like
I don't feel like I allow, like I'm afraid to
like let let myself be happy. Yeah, yeah, that will
just take time. I think that's how I was like
that for well too. I think all all abuse victims
go through this like agoraphobic kind of a thing where

(50:06):
you're like you don't want to move or do anything
or go out of the house because it's everything feels
really scary, right, And that's like the safety and stabilization
phase where you're just trying to get to safety. You're
trying to figure out what's going on, and then when
you can take a breath, like okay, it's not my
face all the metaphorically in my I said, I did
that with my first abuser back in l A. I
remember I didn't leave the department for about a month,

(50:28):
and then when I did, I had a panic attack,
like m but because that my that the two thousand
square foot apartment was the only safety I felt like
I had, and then I got out, I was like,
oh God, where is he? You know, I'm just like, yeah,
it's scary. Yeah. So the second phase is grieving and
processing because then you have to look at what happened
with a new paradigm and recognize like and you have

(50:49):
to process. You have to reprocess everything. So if you're
if you're looking at everything like this and suddenly you
put new glasses on and everything like, oh all these
times he was nice to me, that was rooming, right,
then you have to process all that sort of over
again with a new light and um. Like like a
lot of women asked, like, so he never really loved me?

(51:11):
For example, Well they'll say they never really loved you
to exactly like he did at first, but then I
don't love it was in love, pover loved you or something, yeah, exactly.
Let's say he didn't ever say I never really loved you.
Let's say I did. Let's say he says I love
I did love you. I loved you so much, you
were amazing, but then I realized what you were really like,

(51:32):
or you know, something like abusive like that, and you're
reprocessing that, um, abusive men can't actually love. So it's
not that women aren't lovable. We're absolutely lovable. Like you
guys are gorgeous. I'm gorgeous. We're fun we're crazy. That's crazy. Responsible?

(51:53):
Am I crazy? I don't know, I have. I have
so much to work on, you know. But I mean
also I did, Yeah, you're you're fine, You're you're fine,
you don't deserve abuse. But I will say though too,

(52:14):
like I know in my past relationships, like I've said
some really mean things too. Like I I can also
be like, oh I was that was verbally abusive, calling
someone in a hole or being like you're you know,
so it's like and in that I'm like, well, it's
a spade a spade. Then like then I'm just being
cattle black. Like if if I'm saying, well, you're an
a hole, I don't know, so then I just character

(52:35):
So then I discredit the other abuse because I'm like, well,
I I also called him an asshole? Right, Um, I
would disagree with you. And the reason I disagree is
because um, abuse is exploitation at the core, So they
actually that the behaviors have our goal oriented, okay, and
they're exploited. They're exploitative in nature. So essentially, you're not

(52:56):
falling in love with a person you're following. You're following
in love with if you're an abuser you're following. You're
falling in love with what that person can do for you.
So they're going to give you sex, they're going to
give you they're going to look good at parties, you know.
And I'm not saying saying women can't can't do this.
Women can do this for sure. But the core of

(53:18):
abuse is exploitation. So when I say he he actually
didn't love you, but not because you're not lovable, It's
because what he loved was what you could do for him,
not actually you as an individual person, right as like
like he respecting you, respecting what you want, respecting your wishes,

(53:42):
respecting who you are. He groomed you to think that
at first, but then after a while you realize, like,
actually he doesn't care. You know, uh, he really doesn't care. Um.
So when women are like, oh, man, I swore at him,
or you know, I did whatever whatever it is, they
feel really guilty about. I want them I want to
ask the question, were you doing that because it was

(54:03):
your motivation exploitation or was your motivation safety and truth?
Because I have found that most women they come at
that and they they they're calling him names, or they're
swearing or whatever. They're doing. Their motivation is actually safety.
They're like, you hurt me and I am trying to
figure this out and I am angry and I am frustrated.

(54:25):
And I don't think that's abuse. I you might say
things you regret, you might not be like fantastic, but
I don't think that the core of that when it
comes to a woman who is hurt, is to exploit.
I think her core she is looking for safety and
she's trying to defend herself. Um, And I don't know
if that's true, but no, I hear you, and I absolutely,

(54:49):
Like I always say, like when I talked to my
therapist therapist about it, I I always say like, yeah, like
I you know it was I didn't feel safe and
all those situations. But I I'm curious. But then what
it would if that person then says, well, I had
my own stuff, in my own shame, so this is
why I did X, Y and Z. So then it's

(55:09):
like is that just then two again to like two
people that just like I was reacting to his to
what he did, and he's reacting because of his own
shame and his own stuff, right, And that is where, um,
you know, when I feel shame. Ice cream Okay, okay, okay, right,

(55:30):
I know I'm just trying to make it. I'm trying
to make like not an excuse, but like I'm trying
to like, I don't know, you've got you've got abuse,
So abuses here, right, Abuse lives here. And abuse has
no purpose, no um reason, has no excuse. The what
it wants is to exploit someone else and to control them. Okay.

(55:54):
And then you have someone who is looking for safety
and truth and trying to defend themselves they do. Their
purpose is not to exploit. Their purposes not to control.
Their purpose is not to um, you know, subvert somebody else.
The purpose is for an actual partnered relationship. They're looking

(56:15):
for truth. They're looking to be equal with that other person.
An abuser never wants to be equal. When it gets
close to being equal, they'll lie, they'll manipulate, they'll do
something so that you can't be on equal ground. If
someone is lying to you right there, Let's say they're
using pornography, and pornography is not it is outside your

(56:37):
sexual boundaries. Let's say, okay, and so they know that
if they told you everything that they do sexually, that
you would be on equal ground. You would know them
like as they are, and then you would be able
to make a decision as to whether or not you
wanted to be in that relationship. On equal ground. You
could say, oh, this is who you are. Okay, well

(56:59):
you shine on you be you. I'm not into that.
Thanks for letting me know. I'm out right. There's no
threat to that other than like, okay, you can be yourself.
I'm gonna go be me over here. We don't have
to be together. But abuse wants to say I know
that if she knew this stuff or that if I

(57:20):
told her this, that she would leave. And because she's
not equal to me, because I have the right to
exploit her, because I have the right to withhold information
from her that automatically puts him in his own mind
and in our case, above us. Right, So they hold

(57:41):
this power because we don't have all the information. So
I think when you think about that, think about the motivation.
Think about now, an abuser when they learn these this language.
Let's say there's an abuser listening today, they're going to
use this. They weaponize everything. If they go to therapy,
they're going to weaponize it. If they go to pornography,
a action recovery, If they go to sex addiction recovery,

(58:02):
they're going to weaponize it. So what they would say
to you is, well, I also didn't feel safe. I
was also defending myself against your verbal attacks. They're going
to use everything they can, it doesn't matter what it is,
to weaponize it against a victim. And so um, that's
why I never recommend couple of therapy. I never recommend
you know, like reading some kind of therapy book with

(58:24):
your abuse or other other things like that, because anything
that even a lot of spiritual abuse, a lot of
spiritual stuff, scripture, you know, depending on um, where where
you get your help from, depending on what you're looking for,
they're going to weaponize that. And you can tell that
they're weaponizing it by how you feel. Yeah, And if

(58:47):
they're not weaponizing it, if they're legit like using it
the way it should be used, you're not going to
feel bad. You're going to be like, oh, things are
getting a little better, right. So UM, I just want
victims to not don't just listen to these words, because
your abuser could hear this podcast and be like I
my motivation was love, my motivation was safety, and they're

(59:10):
just lying their actual motivation it was exploitation. And thank
you so much for coming on getting real with us,
share and all this. I mean, this is very helpful
for both of us, both sides. And where can our
listeners hear your podcast? And UM get on? Where where
can I also like to get on placed on me everything? Well,

(59:34):
first of all, I apologize for talking so much. UM,
I would love to hear your stories. So if you
would like to come on my podcast, I would love
to have you so after we can maybe talk about that. UM.
My podcast is Betrayal Trauma Recovery. We share stories from victims. UM.
It is an amazing place where women are believed and

(59:55):
people listen and it's UM it's an awesome podcast, So
you can I think I already said this, but you
can find it on Apple podcast or your podcasting apps.
Our website is b t R dot org. At bt R,
we have multiple groups a day in every single time zone.
We have trauma informed and abuse UM specialists who help

(01:00:18):
women process this stuff. We're the only organization that I
know of that includes infidelity and porn use and and
sexual acting out outside of a woman's sexual boundaries as
an abuse issue. I think it is an abuse issue
because of all the things that go along with it. UM,
and so women are really safe at BTR too feel
all the feelings they need to feel in order to heal,

(01:00:40):
and we um we see women healing all the time,
even though it takes time. So again, that's b t
R dot org. You can also find us on Instagram
at Betrayal Trauma Recovery or on TikTok um. My colleague
Diana runs our TikTok and it's really fun. They're really fun.
It's it's miserable, but she's really good at it. Um.

(01:01:01):
She runs our TikTok and that's a beautier dot org
as well. Awesome, Well, thank you so much. I appreciate
it more than you know. Thank you. Okay, all right,
by great, thank you. I actually love UM. I forgot
that I follow padreal Trauma I do, and I love
I love the girl that they have on there, like
she's she's amazing. Um. They talked about like narcissum, gas lighting. UM,

(01:01:28):
he like abusive to the mom, but she's still a
really good dad. And I'm just going to call that one.
It's false. He can't be a good dad and be
abusive to the children's mother. It's just not possible. Like
she throws me, I'm going to get some comments from men. Yeah,
she throws. She's she's really good. I mean she says
a lot of like I just I like love. Following

(01:01:49):
I was like, wait a minute, I know that name
um because that wasn't that must she must be like
the head of it. I'm not sure, but yeah she's um.
Recently I was talking to an abuse victim. Yeah she's great.
So if you guys fell betrayal, trauma recovery, hopefully this
is helpful to y'all. And again this is just um. Yeah,
I'm I'm, I'm, I'm spent fair Okay, I love you,

(01:02:10):
b