March 31, 2025 • 54 mins
In this episode, Ashlyn manages to wrangle the ever-busy, ever-industrious Billie Jean King for a chat. The two reminisce about their early sports days and how athletics shaped them into the people they are today. Billie paints a picture of the pre-Title IX world and the many decades of hard work she’s put in to change the landscape of women’s sports. Plus, we hear about Billie’s ongoing relationship with her body, sexuality, and legacy.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
Welcome everyone to another episode of Wide Open with Ashlyn Harris.
I am so happy to introduce our guests today, Billy
Jean King.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
Billy, thank you. It's great to be here.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
I said before we started.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
This is probably one of the greatest moments of my life.
It is such a privilege and honor to be able
to sit here and call you a friend, to be
able to sit on the board of the Women's Sports
Foundation and represent you off the field present.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Aren't you not yet? But you keep pushing me into it.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
You have to be You don't have to do whatever
you want. That's special because we do have athletes. It's
the president. Yes, I think we decided that fifty one
years ago.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
It's been such a privilege to be able to learn
the business side of sport, the advocacy side of women
in sport, because you have lived it in every turn
and journey of your career, both on and off the court.
And as I said before, it is absolutely impossible in
(01:14):
the hour I get with you to introduce all of
the successful moments in your career because you quite frankly,
have checked every box, which is pretty special.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
I don't know if I have. I don't think like that.
I think what's next, what's next?
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Down Billy doesn't stop. I mean trying to get you
to sit down to like go to dinner. We're trying
to well cire that out.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
You just don't.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Are you ever going to retire?
Speaker 3 (01:39):
With Lana and I are always traveling and always working
on helping women's sports if we can, because we come
from a time when we had nothing. I'm pre title nine.
That's going way back. That's the sixties and it was,
you know, two jobs going to cal State. La got
to practice with the guys. It was it was rough
because you know, thirty miles away Arthur Ash has a
(02:02):
full scholarship to UCLA, Stan Smith who was number one
in the world as well, full scholarship to sc You know,
they're traveling. Would always see them come back from the
NCAA's in London. I always can remember standing in front
of the Westbury Hotel, like two or three years in
a row, and they were coming back and they're so
excited the collegiate championships and I was congratulating them and
(02:25):
then I went, we have nothing, nothing, and they don't
even and the guys don't notice it. So it's like
you're in this little cocoon that a lot of hurt,
you know, and you really but the most important thing
is how do we get it to go right? Yeah?
You know, so I was driven since I was a child.
Well that's what I want to talk about.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Where did that fight come from?
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Like, what was it like for you growing up in
you know, in Long Beach, California.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
What was little billy like.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
That had this like fire competitive spirit to create change?
Speaker 3 (03:00):
Well, first of all, I love the ball. Our ball
was my third word. And my younger brother, Randy Moffatt,
who played twelve years of professional baseball, most of them
with the San Francisco Giants. He was a relief pitcher.
But I think it's because we love to play catch
or you can roll it on the floor, kick, it
doesn't matter. We love the ball. That was a third word.
(03:21):
He also, that was his third word. It was so
interesting because I was five years older, so I was
just old enough to see him evolve from being born
to a baby and see how much he loved it
as well. And it comes from my dad and my mom.
Basically my dad really he loved basketball. He was really good.
In fact, my dad after World War two was asked
(03:41):
to go join. At that time, the NBA was just beginning,
just starting to try to find itself, and there was
another league and they merged and all that. But my
dad was asked to try out, and he decided to
come home because I'd been born and he really hadn't
spent any time with me yet. And my name I
was named after my dad because my mother wasn't sure
(04:02):
he come home from World War two. He may not
make it, so she always wanted a namesake and his
honor and he's Willis Jefferson, so I'm Billy Jeanie. That's
how she came up with my name. And my dad
really made a difference. So this is for all men
that are listen and women, but dads particularly can really
(04:22):
help their daughters. And my dad believed in me as
much as my brother.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
And I saw that and I went wow. Because when
you walk out the door and go to school or
other things, you're really second class, there's no question. And
sisters of color have it worst, people with disabilities have
it worse. But I knew even as a white girl,
I was the second classes. And by the time I
was eight, nine, ten, you just know that's the deal.
(04:48):
But my dad was just unbelievable how he would ask
me questions. He was a great life coach, and I
think because of that it really made a difference for me.
But I had this yearning. I mean, I played every
sport but tennis. But in fifth grade, Susan Williams asked
me to play. I went, what's tennis? Did you never
(05:09):
heard of tennis? I said, never? What do you do?
You had to run, jump and hit a ball. Oh,
I'm there, I'll try it. So my dad wouldn't buy
me my first racket. He said, you have to find
a way to get it. And he'd done that with
a bat too when I was three and four. And
what he was teaching me, and as you get older,
you realize he was teaching me delayed good gratification. And
(05:32):
I don't know if he knew he was doing that,
but he, I mean, you had I went to every
neighbor and I was so shy. I was like, could
I do a chore or something? And they say, okay,
come on in, we'll get you something. I mean, they
felt sorry for me. They give me a nickel dime
quarters and I had eight dollars and twenty nine cents
and I was so excited. I have to get my racket.
(05:55):
So finally you get my first racket, sleep with it.
Read all the his on tennis. I love history, and
the more you know about history, the more you know
about yourself. But more importantly and the most important reason
is it helps you shape the future. That's why I
asked you when we were talking about when you guys
got equal pay USA soccer, you know, how did you
(06:18):
do that and why did you do it? And did
you did you know the history at all of Julie
and what they did the ninety nine ers You probably didn't,
you see, that's why they help, so I have to
Did it help you?
Speaker 1 (06:29):
Well, it gave us the courage to stand on their
shoulders and have do the brave thing.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
That's why it's important, because both your generations helped shape
the future forward. And that's why I want people to
like history. I loved history. I knew everything about tennis
from the time I went out and hit with Susan
for the first time. I read the history. I got
every book I could get, and that helped me. So
(06:57):
we'll fast forward. I go to the park free lessons
because Susan belonged to a country club, and I'm like,
I'm not playing tennis. You know my dad, my dad's
a firefighter. There's no chance. But we also were on
a softball team together, and she told the coach, Hey, Val,
I took Billy out to play tennis. You know, Val said,
(07:18):
you don't know to give free instruction here, instruction in
free court, free coaching here every Tuesday at Holton Park
where we used to play softball. So I went out
and met Clyde Walker, and at the end of that session,
I knew what I wanted to do with my life.
I wanted to be the number one player in the world.
Done why I played shortstop in softball baseball? If I
(07:39):
played baseball, and I probably touched the ball, what six
times in the game, maybe six? Yeah, you get up
to bat, it's like once every nine times. And I'm
thinking to myself, I can hit one hundred balls in
five minutes in tennis. And it's running and it's changing direction. Well,
you played soccer. This is similar. The footwork's very similar.
So I just loved it. And of course I knew
(08:01):
all about tennis by then because I'd read every book.
So and then fast forward to twelve. Now I'm playing
in tournaments to get a ranking, and I was daydreaming
at the Los Angeles Tennis Club and I started to
realize everybody who played at white clothes. They played with
white ball, so everybody who played was white. I said, oh, no,
(08:23):
this is no good, this is not hell.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
You knew this port early.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
Oh, at twelve, I had epiphany. I knew that tennis
was global, which is huge for me because I like
to travel and I think about the world. I don't
just think about hometown everything. And then that was important.
So I love tennis because of that. Get to hit
a thousand balls, Oh god, it's so much fun. And run.
I love to run. And then I thought, you know,
(08:50):
maybe if I can become number one, maybe, but they'll
listen to me a little bit. People will listen. I thought,
you know, I'm going to fight for equality the rest
of my life. And we probably should talk about equity.
But equity is much more difficult to explain. Equality everybody
gets it, gets it. So that's why I still use equality.
(09:13):
I think sports this amazing way to change the world
and to make it a better way world. You know,
the ways to about art and music. Well, they should
always always include sports because we build bridges. Absolutely, we
absolutely build bridges, and people tend to forget sports. We're
kind of left out, and we're now starting to be
included a little.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
It's the universal language everyone speaks, the language of sport
that unifies everyone, and it is such a source of belonging,
you know, Like I feel like so much of life
is lived through so much isolation and loneliness, especially nowadays,
(09:53):
and I really do feel that sport will always be
there to save us and make us feel a part
of something much bigger than our circumstance. So I do
think it's special, special, and that's what made me love
it from the beginning as a as a young kid.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
Who how did you take up soccer?
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Very similar to your your story. I had a brother
and we played everything together. I played basketball, I played baseball.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Weirdly enough, I wanted to be just like him.
Speaker 3 (10:30):
So we's older.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Yeah, he's older.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
How much older?
Speaker 1 (10:32):
He's a year and a half old. It's just a
little older than I am. And if he went to
the pool in baggies, I went to the pool and baggies.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
I never wanted to wear a top.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
I just didn't understand because if my brother didn't have
to do it, why why did I have to wear
this little triangle thing that falls off every time I
canon ball in the pool. So, I mean, I wouldn't
wear top till I was like six or seven. My
Mom's like it's time. Then I I played on all
of his team. So I was on like the all
Star baseball team with my brother and I.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
I was a.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Shortstop catcher, shortstop catcher and pitcher.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
So like I was in it, and I never wanted
to wear my hair up.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
Everyone always made fun of me. I mean, I was.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
So bullied as a child because people looked at me
because I wasn't feminine enough. I wasn't pretty enough. I
wasn't I didn't look the part. But man, I was
a competitor like I. When people made fun of me
or thought, you know, oh you have a girl on
your team, I was like, oh watch.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
I just used it as fuel my whole life.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
I used it as fuel, and I was the competitive
fire in me. It never leaves us. But I just
wanted to be with my brother and I had to
be good enough to be picked first.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
That that was my mindset.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
I didn't want to be the last I didn't. I
didn't want to be just like, oh, well, that's my sister,
she has to come. Like I was an asset to him.
He picked me first for everything because.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
I was damn good at it.
Speaker 3 (12:14):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
And in high school I played softball, I played baseball,
I played basketball, I played soccer.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
I surfed, I skated.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
I was reckless and I thought I could take on
the world and good.
Speaker 3 (12:28):
You know they've done studies now, because you know a
lot of times parents will want their child to specialize
very early. Yes, but they've done research now and they
know that if you've played a lot of different sports
up to when you have to make the decision, maybe
at twelve ish, that you're going to have to do
this full time if you're going to make it. But
if you've played other sports, they've proven that you do
(12:49):
better and you actually will be better at the sport
you specialize in because you did all these other sports,
because you have to really develop different parts of your body.
Like when you're young, it's kick, run and throw. It's
a big bustle groups and then you go to more
fine night groups. But so it's like what was your
best shot, like where were you best at? Like, let's
take soccer, since that's what you're known for, but you know, honestly,
(13:12):
what made you a great soccer player? You know?
Speaker 2 (13:15):
People, I love that you asked.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
I don't usually have people ask me questions on the show,
but I'm right.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
It's good.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
It is so simple for me, and it shocks people
when I say this. I was willing to do the
ship other people weren't willing to do.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Like I didn't cut corners. I was very dedicated to
my craft.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
My father was a big part of my story, and
he was one of those dads who, just like your father,
if you want it bad enough, you'll find a way.
I can't want it more than you. I want to
wake up and see you outside kicking that ball against
the fence, or throwing doing this or doing that in
(14:00):
the streets, playing five hundred with the boys. If you
want to be the best, it is an act and
in a commitment every single day.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
I am not going to do it for you.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
If you want to go to training, I will drive you,
And sure enough I was.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
He had me.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
He was driving me all over the damn place, and
he I don't think he really loved it.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
Too much.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
But it the mindset that he taught me is no
one will save you. I think at the top, Billy,
especially where where we have lived, where the air is
so thin, everyone is good, everyone ever great.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
Absolutely you're talking about it's such a minor difference.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
You're talking about the most.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
It's the smallest percentage that when you're at that elite
level that changes an outcome. It could be one two
percent of a difference that will make you a champion
or not. And for me, I just was willing to
do it all to dedicate my time, my life to
(15:04):
my craft.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
And then when I.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
Started to go to school, I realized, like I have
to be I have to be a student athlete to
be able to go to the places I wanted to go.
And school was hard for me because I was an athlete.
I identified as an athlete through and through. If it wasn't.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Sports, I didn't want.
Speaker 3 (15:25):
To do it.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
So I had to refocus my mindset that if I
wanted to make a career for myself, and I'm you know,
I'm lucky enough to be a product of Title nine,
I would have never been able to go to college
without title Title nine.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
And where'd you go?
Speaker 1 (15:43):
And weirdly, I'll share a story University of North Carolina,
Chapel Hill.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
Oh I know about that, Yes, Starhill.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
I was about thirteen years old, and you know, we talked.
We spoke about being like this bullish person with this
big ego, and I thought I could take on the world,
and I thought I could really do incredible things.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Like I believed in myself.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
More than anyone, like anyone believed in me. I didn't
need affirmation. I really believed in my core that I
was going to be great. So I got my phone
and I had the you know, we still had plug
in phones, and I got the cord one, yep, I
got the court I had the cool little clear phone, and.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
I crawled into my closet.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
I didn't want my parents to hear me have this conversation.
I was thirteen years old and I got antson Drance's
phone number and I called him and I knew I
was going to get in trouble because it was a
long distance call and I was very quiet, and you know,
he picked up the phone. I said, Hi, I'm Ashelyn Harris.
(16:52):
You don't know me, but you will, and I've heard
you don't give full scholarships to women and unless they
play for the US women's national team. I said, I
promise I will be there. I'm just not there yet.
But if you want me to go to your school,
you have to give me a full ride because my
parents can't afford it and I don't want to put
(17:13):
them through that and I don't want to go anywhere
else but Carolina. And I think Anson's never shocked. I
think that is probably one of the most shocking things
he's ever experienced. And and I ended up getting a
full a full scholarship to North Carolina.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
Was he pretty impressed with what you said? I think?
Speaker 2 (17:35):
I think so, sounds like he said, yes, right, Yeah, he.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
Was absolutely shocked. He was like, we will gladly come
watch you play. And I was like, I'm I'm going
to go to I'm going to be a tar heel.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
It is not me and go there. And that was
a really and yeah I went.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
I was the first to graduate college from my entire family,
and it was really really important to my grandmother, who
is no longer here. But she didn't have access to sports,
she didn't have access to go get a college education.
She met my grandfather picking cotton on a farm and
(18:20):
at Sunday School, they you know, thirteen years old, they
started dating. They got married at sixteen and went into
the Air Force, so her life was very different. And
every letter that always would come in from a college coach,
she would always hang it on the refrigerator.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
Oh that's so sweet.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
It was so sweet. So I knew it meant so
much to her.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
And when I graduated, I was drafted into the professional league.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
I didn't end up walking.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
But when I got my diploma, I sent it to
her because I knew how important it was.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
And then I.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
Just recently got it back when she passed away that
she framed it and had it in her her office,
and it was a really proud moment for both of
us because I was the first of the family to.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
Go to school on a full ride. And that is.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
Because you're an athlete.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Title nine go girl, Yeah so I do.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
I always ask this question, and it's really important to me.
This show is really important to me because I think
so often when you make it to the top, people
only want to hear about the successful stories and how
you got there, and there's so much to who we
are behind what we do.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
We don't get there alone, and I think people don't
relist at something. Now it's like family. It's always if
you talk to anybody in the world that really achieves greatness,
they'll tell you all the different people that made the difference.
And for me with so many obviously with my parents,
I mean they work three jobs. So my brother and
I get players are sports and getting him to a
(19:59):
you know, a baseball field and getting me to a
tennis court. We're going different places. Now we're not going
to the same sport. It was rough. And then then
they have to get other parents organized. So they do
a carpool, you know, and you're playing every day in tennis,
you're going. If you win, you go the next day.
If you win, you go the next day. You just
keep going. So you've got to be ready for seven
(20:20):
days if your child wins. They never asked my brother
because my brother at ten years old, I'm five years older.
I'm the opposite of you at the I remember at
the dining room table, I knew he's going to do
this here he told me we're really tight, and he goes.
I just wanted to tell everybody, mom and dad, I
want to be a major League baseball player and my
(20:41):
parents just will are you kidding me? You too want
to be? I love? Oh my my parents are going okay, no.
I could just see them scrambling and thinking, how are
we going to do this? We got one that's killing us.
Now we're gonna have two that we're going to have
to figure this out. But they never asked my brother
and me if we won. M they didn't say. And
(21:04):
this is what parents do to children All the time.
I see it. I watch did you win? Did you win?
Did you win? The kid is so upset, especially if
he or she or they or whatever gender they may be,
that they lost, and it's just why do you do that?
If it's so much just heaving is pressure? And I
think one of the big reasons that my brother and
(21:24):
I made it to the top is that we love pressure.
We thrive on it. He's a relief pitcher. He should
he was going to be a third base or a fielder.
But in the Kawanas T shirt Ley, they're so cute,
the little green little T shirts on Kwanas the sun's setting,
nobody can hit, nobody can pitch. Oh my gosh, no
(21:47):
tea ball yet. So my brother was the only kid
on the team. They got the you know when he pitched,
got the ball with an eight feet of home plate,
so we could have a game and if someone actually
someone pitch it, hit it, some would feel it. And
if they threw it to the first base, everybody stand
up and go yo. Because that happened about once a game.
It took forever because it was hard. They really needed
(22:10):
t ball then. So but my parents are great. We'd
come home or i'd walk in from a tournament, maybe
somebody else took me to LA or just some other place,
and they never said did you win? They always gate, well,
did you have a good day? What kind of day
did you have? And I go, are you kidding? I
lost it. I hate losing. I hate it. And my
(22:30):
dad would say, okay, let me go on and on
and finally say, okay, let me just ask you one question.
Did you try your best? I said, of course, I'd
tried my best. He goes, it's good enough. Start over.
And I think because they were that way with my
brother Randy and me, I think that's why we really
thrived on pressure. We do thrive on it. We like it,
(22:52):
you know, we loved it. I'm talking about sports now,
about real life.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
Yeah, we're gonna get to that.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
That's a whole nother discussion.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
But that's incredible.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
But I think that, I really think that ingredient there
that they did not and Evon Guligan, who was number
one in the world Indigenous Australian, her mother used to
say to her, have a lovely day, and she would
come home and she said, well, did you have a
lovely day? And she was also number one, And if
you listened to a lot of these number ones, there's
(23:26):
a theme there that they just wanted their child and
the child wanted it so bad anyway. I mean I
wanted I wanted to be number one. I was not
interested in anything else. Yeah, and I came from team
sports too, so it's like I always thought of us
were all a team together trying to make our sport
better because I you know, I started as an amateur
and I hated it because we were the best players
(23:48):
in the world, and yet we're called amateurs. I said, well,
amateurs should be a hobby and you're a pro if
you're the best, and said, we're pros. And I used
to tell her and we used to make fourteen dollars
a day. I said, we got a you know, change
it got to change it. So we changed it. But
my generation changed tennis from amateur to pro and that's
(24:09):
I call this the transition generation for doing that. And
but boy, it was hard. It was so difficult. And
I mean I never got any sleep for years, just trying.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
To We still haven't stopped.
Speaker 3 (24:22):
Well, I still get sleep though.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
Now this is Wide Open, and I'm your host, Ashland Harris.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
I have to ask you this question because it is
a question I ask every guest on the show.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
This This show is called wide.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
Open for a reason, and it's you know, seizing the moment.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
Thank you very much, Billy. That means a lot.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
But it's really like separating yourself from the pack. It's
seizing the moment and the opportunity. But also wide open
is peeling back the layers and being open and vulnerable
and living a life authentic to who you are. I'm
curious of what moment in your life, whether professionally or personally,
(25:22):
really split you wide open that changed changed it all
for you, your your path, your mindset. What was that moment
that changed.
Speaker 3 (25:31):
It's obvious when Susan asked me to play tennis, I
still see Susan, and she lives in Philly, and every
time I see it's all I go, it's all your
fault and it's all her fault. But she's on my
blessing list every day too. I do a blessing list
in my head every morning. I'm waking up to be
thankful for people and whatever. Susan's always on my list
because look at the life I've had. Because she said,
(25:53):
do you want to play tennis? I mean, I never
heard it. So I'm always thankful to her. And then
I got married in sixty five, totally in love with him.
Met him at calcay La. I saw him across the
room and went, who's he?
Speaker 1 (26:06):
Hmm?
Speaker 3 (26:06):
Great love, got married and then I start to realize
that maybe I like women and men. But during the seventies,
when we started women's professional tennis, I was told by
sponsors if I say anything about what I'm feeling that
they wouldn't have a tour. So that was really easy.
That's all. Keep my mouth shut. And at the same time,
(26:30):
I'm trying to figure out who I am, and I
asked Larry for a divorce because I didn't think I
was being fair to him. I couldn't. I just could
not figure out who I am.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
How When did that start for you, though? Did you feel?
Speaker 3 (26:42):
Probably after we're married, for sure, So not as a child.
You didn't know. In college one girl came and kissed me. Yeah,
I don't felt liked it or not, but I was shocked.
But no, no, I always dated guys and love guys,
and yeah, had no understanding. I thought it was straight.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
How because it's it's so important, because your visibility and
who you are and how you show up is so
important for our community, as you know, because it is
tough and it is.
Speaker 3 (27:16):
Well in those days, you couldn't do it. You can today.
Now we're celebrated, which is great, great, But then we
were not celebrated. I did have an affair with Marilyn
Barnett and she outed me at eighty one.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
What was that like for you, Billy?
Speaker 3 (27:29):
It was terrible because of being outed, You're not doing
anything on your own terms. You're reacting, dear. Yeah, and
by then, by any one, I'd met Ilana, who I'm
married to now, and I knew she was the one.
She's incredible, and we were still being quiet. She wanted
to stay quiet too, she's from South Africa didn't want
her family to know. And when I was out it,
I lost all my endorsements immediately except for one company,
(27:54):
but they dropped the price on me really low, which
was worse actually in some ways so basic. I didn't
have any endorsements and I was at the end of
my career, so I was just now going to start
to make some real money because they were going to
give me lifetime endorsements, and I lost all this, so
I basically had to start over. But in a way
it was a blessing because I did start to live
(28:17):
an authentic life to your point, but it was excruciating.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
How did you separate it, Billy? When you were playing?
Speaker 3 (28:26):
How did you The tennis court was my sanctuary.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
That was your place to feel safe.
Speaker 3 (28:32):
Nobody can ask me for an autograph. Nobody can ask
me anything except the umpire maybe. Yeah, No, I was
like then, I was even more thankful that I had
this this stage because to me, a tennis court's my
stage anyway, or our stage if it's doubles or whatever.
So I love every time I see a tennis court
any place I can see in a cornfield, see a
(28:52):
tennis court, and I go ah right, it's a stage.
It's I just love it. It's math, it's science, it's art.
It's you know, you shape time and space. I mean
you do that when you played soccer. I don't think
people used to say, what's tennis. I used to say
it's art and science to me because there's so much
math in it. I remember geometry and going, ah god,
(29:13):
I don't know. Then I went to went out to
play and I went, are you kidding? This is geometry, dummy.
And so then I had a great time in class.
I couldn't wait to go to geometry, and I'd relate
everything to my tennis. It's like, oh, this is great.
So I loved it. But to get back to the
tough times is like the court really was the sanctuary.
(29:36):
But I was basically finished by the time I was
out it. I was old, and I retired in eighty three,
I was forty. But I love to play.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
It's that that moment that is so special, that was forced,
and the moment was taken by someone else.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
But what I noticed most, Billy, is your entire career.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
Everyone had an opinion of you, the way you look,
the way you moved, You wear glasses like Oh, that's.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
Another good thing. Every kid, you know that what everybody
used to tell me, it's a kid when I wear glasses.
There's never been a number one player that wears glasses.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
How did you not let it penetrate?
Speaker 3 (30:24):
Though I penetrated. I want, I said, I'll show them
I'm going to be number one. And so every child
that has to wear glasses and every person you just
do whatever you want. Let's go. And I see babies,
you know, with little glasses, and you know a lot
of kids have challenges with their eyes, and I always
make a comment I love their frames. Oh my god,
look at those glasses. Are so cute. Because I want
(30:47):
them to feel that it's special. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
I read a story that when you were in junior's
your mom made you a pair of tennis shorts and
you were removed, moved from a picture.
Speaker 3 (31:01):
That's the very first time I played in a sanctioned
tournament to get a ranking, and we looked up what
are you supposed to wear? What's the uniform? Because I
played softball, basketball, volleyball, did track and feel, I did
all these other sports. And like it says you have
to wear a white soul, I'll make you some shorts,
and then I wear a white blouse and it was impeccable.
(31:21):
You know it means clean whistle and tennis shoes. I
used to polish my shoes with white polish to make
them absolutely be perfect, but they didn't. I'd never seen
a tennis dress or a skirt until that day. I
went to watch some matches and I go, oh, what
are those? What do they call those? Well then I said,
(31:43):
well they have a skirt. What do you call those
other things? What do you call them? Their tennis dress?
And I didn't know that until that day. But he said,
little girl, you can't be in the photo because you're
not wearing a skirt or a dress. Well, we've never
seen one. And I was furious with him, Perry T. Jones,
because you cannot do that to children. Should always accept them.
(32:03):
And I remember my mother being mortified and so embarrassed,
and I went over and I whispered in her. I go, Mommy,
don't you worry. I'll show him one day.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
Oh I love it.
Speaker 3 (32:14):
And so I wasn't in the photo because I was
wearing shorts. I said, don't worry. And I said, but
I whispered to her because she was just so embarrassed
for her child and her you know, she had made
a mistake, and I said, you didn't. It's not about you, mommy,
it's about him. So anyway, I was furious with him.
But my mother immediately went home that night and sewed
(32:36):
me a tenistra, and my brother brought it up the
other day, you know, remembering my mother on the floor
with a with a cup making the scallops for around
the trim. And I love that dress to this day
because my mother made it, and I know the circumstances
that that caused her to sew it, because we didn't
have the money to buy things, so she was so
(32:56):
we didn't have the money to go out to eat.
Oh my god. We finally got to go out to eat,
to get a hamburg or something, and my mom would say,
you can't have both a coke and a milkshake. You
I have to want of it or French fries or whatever.
Of course I shouldn't be eating that anyway, And they'll say,
we didn't know better. That's back in the fifties.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
So you have been very open with how things looked
and felt for you, and the scrutiny that everyone placed
on you through your career and you have been open
about having a eating disorder during that process.
Speaker 3 (33:32):
And no, I still I'm always every morning I wake
up and go, I have an eating disorder, just like
if you're an alcoholic or anything else, do you admit
it every day. I went to Renfrew and Philadelphia for
six weeks lived there. I still have therapy every week
from the therapist from Renfrew, which is great because I
don't have to go, well, here's my family history. She
knows everything. One of my dreams, one of my wants
(33:55):
is to make the definitive docu on eating disorders. Being
at Renfrew for six weeks, living with all these different people,
girls that they don't have women there that have eating disorders,
it really taught me so much about why we have them,
what do we do about it, and how can we
(34:19):
get through this and be healthy. So it's been a
really unbelievable journey just in that area. I really want
to make this film and I've started to talk a
lot to different people to get this done because I
want it to be about all the eating disorders. But
how can I really help? How can we really help
(34:41):
someone that has an eating disorder?
Speaker 1 (34:43):
One in every two women drop out of sports at
an early age because of body issues.
Speaker 3 (34:50):
Right, I did something for Dove the other day at
in New Orleans. It's about they tell them they have
the wrong body type. Yeah, I think it's forty five percent.
Since can you believe that?
Speaker 1 (35:00):
Kid?
Speaker 3 (35:01):
Well, what did I talk to you? What did I
say at the beginning, near the beginning about socialization? We're socialized.
We have to be perfect, perfect, and girls always feel
this little nudge inside. I'll talk about myself because God,
it can't judge you or somebody else, but it's this
little nudge that we're not quite good enough.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
Even in twenty twenty five, we still in terms of
media coverage.
Speaker 3 (35:23):
Oh look at it.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
It's still about physical attributes. These women are showing up.
You know.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
You talk about Alona mar at the Olympics, the rugby player,
and she was in tears saying, I need this body
to do great things, to be powerful, and it's worth
educating exactly. It's we still are told every single day
(35:50):
we don't look the right way, where we don't fit
the right sizes.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
It's it's exhausting.
Speaker 3 (35:55):
Well, when we started women's professional tennis, there was nine
of us tournament in Houston, Texas. Gladys Hellman helped us
get it done. She was the publisher of World Tennis magazine,
and there were nine of us. Were called the original
nine because the tournament in Houston is the birth of
(36:15):
women's professional tennis the way you know it today. That's
where it started. That is the beginning, okay, And here
are the three things that we came up with that
if any girl born in this world is good enough,
she'll have a place to compete. Number two, to be
appreciated for our accomplishments, not only only our looks.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (36:41):
And number three to be able to make a living
playing tennis, this sport we love. But the number two
was to be appreciated for accomplishments. Like guys are they
appreciate for their compeishtions. It's not always about their looks,
is it? But Nils? For instance, in college, the girls
who are sexualizing themselves most make the most money. So
(37:03):
what are we encouraged to do. We're encouraged if it's
more money. We're encouraged to sexualize ourselves. But we're never
quite perfect, you know, we're always itchy. I don't know,
there's that little itch like we're never quite good enough.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
You are one of the most famous athletes of all time,
and all of this scrutiny and all of this.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
Access people have to you to watch you. Ninety million
people watched you win the Battle of the Sexes.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
I am curious how other people's expectation of you, Billy,
has impacted your self worth and your career. How do
you move in the world with that on your shoulder.
Speaker 3 (37:58):
I don't mind that at all.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
You don't know.
Speaker 3 (38:00):
And also I knew when I played Bobby Riggs back
in nineteen seventy three, and he's a former number one player,
and I knew all about him. I love my history,
and I'd seen little tapes of him they only used
in the old days, maybe get two shots or three shots.
I read all his books, so I knew a lot
about him. He knew nothing about me, which is normal anyway,
(38:22):
that's a whole another discussion you want. But I knew
that I would be remembered for this match. If I
lost the match, they'd always say the rest of my life,
oh there goes that girl. She lost to that guy.
And so I thought to myself, that's ridiculous. But I
also knew it was an opportunity would have a lot
of people watching. It was a title nine had been
(38:43):
passed the year before. We'd had our women's professional Tour,
which started really in seventy one, and this is September
seventy three. We just formed our Tennis Association June twenty one,
seventy three before Wimbledon, and Wimbledon was the big one
to win. It still probably is. And seventy three was
(39:07):
an amazing year. I mean difficult, a lot of pressures
that I actually liked. I knew this match could help.
If it could help Title nine, could help women's sports,
if it could help women and men, because we kind
of keep learning about each other. We couldn't get a
credit card on our own in nineteen seventy three. Can
(39:28):
you imagine Larry went to law school in the late sixties,
my former husband, And every time you get all these
forms for credit cards, he go, you see this, they
should be coming to you. You're the famous one. You're
the one that's making money right now. I'm just a student.
But they think I'm a lot of student and I'll
eventually have money. Is the reason I'm getting these, he said,
(39:49):
It's ridiculous. Larry's such a feminist. He's great. He just
used to get crazed about that because he was correct.
Most guys probably didn't think about it, and most women
probably not either. But the point was, I knew this
time in history, this could make or break where we
go left or right, or forward or backwards or whatever.
So I knew it was really crucial to give you
(40:11):
an idea. The super Bowl that year got fifty three million.
Now it gets one hundred and twenty six or seven million,
but that gives you and we're ninety million, so that
gives you an idea. The how many people watch it,
and it was worldwide, it wasn't just the US. But
I knew for me personally that I thought it could
help change things for the future. President Obama was twelve
(40:35):
years old. He told me how much that match affected
him as a child. He raised two young girls, and
he made him think for the first time about it.
And I got all this feedback from people, so I
knew it was vital that I win for all these
various reasons. So and I knew people would remember me
(40:57):
for that. Unfortunately, I think all these other things, but
I knew that's what people and they do. I mean
especially older people now remember it. Grandchildren every grandchildren still
do interviews with me.
Speaker 1 (41:12):
Yes, But Billy, all you have done is advocated and advocated.
Speaker 2 (41:19):
You are such a giver.
Speaker 1 (41:21):
You dedicated you honestly, you've dedicated and you're still doing it. Billy,
you have dedicated your whole entire life to make it
better for people like me.
Speaker 2 (41:32):
What do you do?
Speaker 1 (41:33):
Just like that?
Speaker 2 (41:34):
It is a beautiful That's for me too.
Speaker 3 (41:36):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (41:36):
This is what you do.
Speaker 3 (41:38):
Know, it's great to get your cup. It does still
my cup. And okay, I'll tell you what I'm doing
for Billy. For me is I'm going back to college.
Speaker 2 (41:48):
I love that.
Speaker 3 (41:49):
I had three years at calcay La and I dropped
out to be number one in the world because I
had to get going. I mean just going back to school.
I mean I was. I was a history major. And
the whole office is so excited for me, helping me.
Let's get you the books whatever. And I'm reading, of course,
(42:10):
I'm trying to read. Plus I've got work. I'm like,
oh my god, and I love to underline everything with
my pencil. I'm so bad. I just had, you know,
like five new books arrive because I think I want
to talk about Title nine actually in my final paper,
because I lived it, and I've already been reading books
that don't have things right, and I'm like, oh god,
I don't know what to do. No, I was there.
Speaker 1 (42:31):
It's physically, you.
Speaker 3 (42:33):
Know, and change, and they don't have it right. And
I'm like, but I lived in this. I need to
make it right. So I've got a chance to do
a great thing. Just but I want to finish. I
like finishing. It's like when you go to net and
you shake hands, or like when you finish your soccer
game or whatever. There's something about sports. It starts. There's
that beginning, middle, and end. I don't know. It's fascinating.
(42:54):
But i feel the same way with graduating. So I'm
calling it the road to graduation. Good for you, you
try not. I mean, I had three years already, which
I thought i'd had two years. I had three. So
by next year I'll be able to graduate, I hope.
And maybe it'll encourage others to finish it. I don't know.
And whatever your life work is, whatever you want to do,
(43:15):
the way you want to look at something. But I
think people underestimate themselves a lot of times.
Speaker 1 (43:23):
I'll be back in just a moment after this brief
message from our sponsors. Well, you are definitely the epitome
of showing everyone what is possible, and we are in
(43:45):
such a unique spot in women's sports because you will.
You have allowed us to stand on your shoulders. Right now,
we're having a very very big splash in women's sports.
Speaker 3 (44:00):
Don't get, don't get this is what it's not where
you want to always stay humble.
Speaker 2 (44:05):
Though, yes, it's not where you want to stay.
Speaker 3 (44:07):
Humble, keep because you never you can lose it overnight
and it takes years. You can build it, and people
have to remember that it takes years to build it.
It can go away overnight.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
You said something really.
Speaker 3 (44:21):
Important to me.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
You said, we're clearly not where we want to be,
but we are at a tipping point. And for me,
I've lived my whole life to see this start happening.
I know if I had died tomorrow, it's just starting.
But this is what I've worked for my whole life.
That's true, to help us have.
Speaker 2 (44:46):
More in women's sports.
Speaker 1 (44:50):
Right you have laid the groundwork for this moment and
for you to be able to see full stadiums for
you to see pay equity and equality, and it's not
where we want it to be, but we are making
a big leap for you to see your life's work.
Speaker 2 (45:10):
In this moment. How does that make you feel?
Speaker 3 (45:17):
I don't really stop and think about it that much
because we got to we have to keep going. I know,
I'm very blessed, but I'm enjoying this because I still
have enough energy to keep trying to help it. But
more importantly, I know it's on its way if we
don't blow it. But you can blow it, you know
how that is? Yep, you can be in a position
(45:38):
of winning and you can blow it quickly. So you
and that's what we learn in sports and for everyday life,
is that we have to and every generation has to
continue it, you know. And what players will come up
to me, Well, I'll talk about tennis because I know that,
But they'll come up to me and they'll go, what
(45:58):
should I do? I said, learn the business? For instance,
I say, did you get paid it the last tournament
you paid played in? Of course I got paid. I said,
did you go ask the owner of that tournament or
promoter of that tournament how he or she or they
did they get this biggest blank on their face, like
what I said, do you realize they worked the whole
(46:20):
year so you can have this one week tournament and
they may have lost money, but you got your check.
And they look at me like I never thought of that.
I said, well, I'd like you to think about it,
because maybe someday you will own a tournament. You don't know.
Larry and I own tournaments. We started in nineteen sixty eight.
(46:41):
We did an eight person tournament Oakland Coliseum. We made money.
Larry's in law school. Everything. Larry thought everything was great.
Second time we'd do the same thing, it rained, it
was horrible. We lost money. He woke up and said,
I don't know anything, instead of thinking you know everything
when you're young. It was hysterical. But the different the
(47:02):
reason I was able. I had this vision anyway as
a young girl to change things. But owning tournaments taught
me so much. I'll give you a perfect example. First,
I'll say three things. Ed Woollard who used to be
CEO of DuPont he's passed on now, but he and
I spent three years trying to figure out what the
(47:24):
people that have inner success, happiness and outer do well.
What do they have. So we ended up with these
three things, and they don't have to be in this order.
Relationships are everything. Number two to learn and to keep learning,
how to learn, keep learning and keep learning how to learn.
(47:45):
And number three, to be a problem solver. And then
I had an innovator.
Speaker 2 (47:50):
Because yes, of course you did.
Speaker 3 (47:52):
Those are the three things, and they can be in
any order you want. But I will guarantee you if
you go through your day, you'll touch those things every
single day of your life in some way or another.
Let's go to nineteen seventy two. I won the US Open.
I'm in the media and I said to the media,
(48:14):
I was so angry. I made ten thousand dollars this
winning and Nastasi won twenty five thousand. I was furious
we had the same amount of people watching us. I said,
you know what, I don't think the girls, the women
are going to come. We're not going to We're not
going to come back next year unless we get equal money.
And then I go to myself inside. I go, oh, Billy,
(48:35):
you've just blown it. You haven't talked to the women
about this. What are you doing. You've made the biggest mistake.
But because Larry and I own tournaments, and because I
had good relationships with different people and different sponsors, I
went to the different potential sponsors and said, would you
together individually or would you put up the difference in
(48:58):
the prize money so women can have equal prizeman in
next year at the U's Open, and Bristol Myers came
up to me and said, yes, we'll do the whole thing.
In those days, it wasn't very much. It was like
fifty five thousand dollars and seventy three That was a
lot of money. And I said, are you really? But
why did that happen? Because we had the relationship. Yes,
Marvin Coslow was a great guy from Bristol Myers. I
(49:20):
know he helped make it happen. And because I had
said in the media, oh, it stinks that we don't
get equal money, they said, you know what you said,
it stinks. It's about money. I keep trying to explain
to the players and Jared, you, guys, it's about money.
You have to you have to find a way to
get the money. And so because of these relationships, I
was able. That's the reason that happened. We had we
(49:43):
were like almost friends, and I don't think most athletes
understand it. Understand the business, understand what a sponsor wants. Yes,
understands what the people that are coming to watch want.
You know. It is another thing. It gets me crazy,
Hennis particularly. You know how we all have our headsets on,
(50:03):
which I understand they're making money. I want them to
have them on. But when you get to the court,
to the outside of the court, and you can keep
them on for a little bit to stand there. But
remember we are there for the audience and the players
today the athletes today think the audience is there for them. No,
we're the entertainers. Our job is to make them happy,
(50:27):
not for them to make us happy. And I think
players today they're always saying, yeah, I want to hear it,
I want to hear it here. You know, they're with
their hands and I'm like, you know what, you guys
were there for them. Our greatness is to give back,
to give to the audience and make it. You know,
we're entertainers to give to the entertainers should get back
all the time. Absolutely how much we get when we're playing.
(50:50):
Can you hear the audience going on? That's when you
kick the ball for an hour ninety minutes. That is
a privilege to be a pro athlete. It's about we
instead of I. When you listen to interviews, see how
many times you hear word I we us the team.
Every player's taught to say the team. That's they go, oh,
the team, you know, and thanks and thanks for coming
out to watch me. Every player it's taught that. Every
(51:13):
athlete's taught to say that. But the sincerity of it,
do you really understand the ramifications? Do you understand how
you can take the world forward and make it a
better place? And you know those are the things to
get me crazy. No, it's like talk about the other players,
talk about your owners, talk about them, you know, they
talk about the fans. They always include the fans, but
(51:34):
they don't really I always wanted to do something special.
I don't know. I think it's important to talk about
other athletes, not yourself all the time. Leadership with empathy
is the greatest leadership.
Speaker 2 (51:45):
I think that's heavy.
Speaker 1 (51:46):
I love that for someone who has done so much
and pave the way for so many What is the
legacy you want to leave behind, Billy? Like, what do
you do you want to be known for?
Speaker 3 (52:03):
I don't think about that. I think legacy is what
other people think about you, But it's really the contributions
you make as you live on this earth that really,
I think define you. I think that's the accomplishments and
what you give is really what defines you. But I
think legacy, I never think about legacy like that. I
(52:24):
think legacy is really what people decide about you. I think,
don't you think that?
Speaker 2 (52:28):
That's very fair?
Speaker 1 (52:29):
And I've never heard anyone frame it that way.
Speaker 3 (52:33):
I think it's the contributions. Really, that's the what we
contribute to make this world a better place, and.
Speaker 1 (52:39):
You've dedicated your entire life to that, and I am
so grateful.
Speaker 3 (52:45):
It's been fun to sit.
Speaker 1 (52:49):
And be able to have this beautiful conversation with you.
I am grateful I get to sit on your board
and represent you and continue to carry the torch to
lead the way in building a better future for women
in sports and specially queer women.
Speaker 2 (53:07):
Thank you, Billy, Thanks.
Speaker 3 (53:09):
For being Thanks, Yeah, thanks for earning on. I love
your show. I'm glad you have it. This will help too.
Every time a woman athlete has the show, it makes
a difference, and you're going to make a huge difference.
You already have. Thank you, but anyway, I know we're
in good shape if we have people like you.
Speaker 2 (53:24):
Thanks Billy, that means a lot.
Speaker 1 (53:26):
Thanks, Thanks everyone for tuning in, and we will see
you next week on Wide Open.
Speaker 2 (53:31):
With Ashlin Harris.
Speaker 1 (53:34):
Wide Open with Ashlin Harris is an iHeart women's sports production.
Speaker 2 (53:38):
You can find us on.
Speaker 1 (53:39):
The iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Our producers are Carmen Borca, Coreo, Emily Maronov, and Lucy Jones.
Production assistants from Malia Aguidello. Our executive producers are Jesse Katz,
Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rudder.
Speaker 2 (53:59):
Are at are
Speaker 1 (54:00):
Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rudder, and I'm your host, Ashlyn
Harris
Welcome everyone to another episode of Wide Open with Ashlyn Harris.
I am so happy to introduce our guests today, Billy
Jean King.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
Billy, thank you. It's great to be here.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
I said before we started.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
This is probably one of the greatest moments of my life.
It is such a privilege and honor to be able
to sit here and call you a friend, to be
able to sit on the board of the Women's Sports
Foundation and represent you off the field present.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Aren't you not yet? But you keep pushing me into it.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
You have to be You don't have to do whatever
you want. That's special because we do have athletes. It's
the president. Yes, I think we decided that fifty one
years ago.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
It's been such a privilege to be able to learn
the business side of sport, the advocacy side of women
in sport, because you have lived it in every turn
and journey of your career, both on and off the court.
And as I said before, it is absolutely impossible in
(01:14):
the hour I get with you to introduce all of
the successful moments in your career because you quite frankly,
have checked every box, which is pretty special.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
I don't know if I have. I don't think like that.
I think what's next, what's next?
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Down Billy doesn't stop. I mean trying to get you
to sit down to like go to dinner. We're trying
to well cire that out.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
You just don't.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Are you ever going to retire?
Speaker 3 (01:39):
With Lana and I are always traveling and always working
on helping women's sports if we can, because we come
from a time when we had nothing. I'm pre title nine.
That's going way back. That's the sixties and it was,
you know, two jobs going to cal State. La got
to practice with the guys. It was it was rough
because you know, thirty miles away Arthur Ash has a
(02:02):
full scholarship to UCLA, Stan Smith who was number one
in the world as well, full scholarship to sc You know,
they're traveling. Would always see them come back from the
NCAA's in London. I always can remember standing in front
of the Westbury Hotel, like two or three years in
a row, and they were coming back and they're so
excited the collegiate championships and I was congratulating them and
(02:25):
then I went, we have nothing, nothing, and they don't
even and the guys don't notice it. So it's like
you're in this little cocoon that a lot of hurt,
you know, and you really but the most important thing
is how do we get it to go right? Yeah?
You know, so I was driven since I was a child.
Well that's what I want to talk about.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Where did that fight come from?
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Like, what was it like for you growing up in
you know, in Long Beach, California.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
What was little billy like.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
That had this like fire competitive spirit to create change?
Speaker 3 (03:00):
Well, first of all, I love the ball. Our ball
was my third word. And my younger brother, Randy Moffatt,
who played twelve years of professional baseball, most of them
with the San Francisco Giants. He was a relief pitcher.
But I think it's because we love to play catch
or you can roll it on the floor, kick, it
doesn't matter. We love the ball. That was a third word.
(03:21):
He also, that was his third word. It was so
interesting because I was five years older, so I was
just old enough to see him evolve from being born
to a baby and see how much he loved it
as well. And it comes from my dad and my mom.
Basically my dad really he loved basketball. He was really good.
In fact, my dad after World War two was asked
(03:41):
to go join. At that time, the NBA was just beginning,
just starting to try to find itself, and there was
another league and they merged and all that. But my
dad was asked to try out, and he decided to
come home because I'd been born and he really hadn't
spent any time with me yet. And my name I
was named after my dad because my mother wasn't sure
(04:02):
he come home from World War two. He may not
make it, so she always wanted a namesake and his
honor and he's Willis Jefferson, so I'm Billy Jeanie. That's
how she came up with my name. And my dad
really made a difference. So this is for all men
that are listen and women, but dads particularly can really
(04:22):
help their daughters. And my dad believed in me as
much as my brother.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
And I saw that and I went wow. Because when
you walk out the door and go to school or
other things, you're really second class, there's no question. And
sisters of color have it worst, people with disabilities have
it worse. But I knew even as a white girl,
I was the second classes. And by the time I
was eight, nine, ten, you just know that's the deal.
(04:48):
But my dad was just unbelievable how he would ask
me questions. He was a great life coach, and I
think because of that it really made a difference for me.
But I had this yearning. I mean, I played every
sport but tennis. But in fifth grade, Susan Williams asked
me to play. I went, what's tennis? Did you never
(05:09):
heard of tennis? I said, never? What do you do?
You had to run, jump and hit a ball. Oh,
I'm there, I'll try it. So my dad wouldn't buy
me my first racket. He said, you have to find
a way to get it. And he'd done that with
a bat too when I was three and four. And
what he was teaching me, and as you get older,
you realize he was teaching me delayed good gratification. And
(05:32):
I don't know if he knew he was doing that,
but he, I mean, you had I went to every
neighbor and I was so shy. I was like, could
I do a chore or something? And they say, okay,
come on in, we'll get you something. I mean, they
felt sorry for me. They give me a nickel dime
quarters and I had eight dollars and twenty nine cents
and I was so excited. I have to get my racket.
(05:55):
So finally you get my first racket, sleep with it.
Read all the his on tennis. I love history, and
the more you know about history, the more you know
about yourself. But more importantly and the most important reason
is it helps you shape the future. That's why I
asked you when we were talking about when you guys
got equal pay USA soccer, you know, how did you
(06:18):
do that and why did you do it? And did
you did you know the history at all of Julie
and what they did the ninety nine ers You probably didn't,
you see, that's why they help, so I have to
Did it help you?
Speaker 1 (06:29):
Well, it gave us the courage to stand on their
shoulders and have do the brave thing.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
That's why it's important, because both your generations helped shape
the future forward. And that's why I want people to
like history. I loved history. I knew everything about tennis
from the time I went out and hit with Susan
for the first time. I read the history. I got
every book I could get, and that helped me. So
(06:57):
we'll fast forward. I go to the park free lessons
because Susan belonged to a country club, and I'm like,
I'm not playing tennis. You know my dad, my dad's
a firefighter. There's no chance. But we also were on
a softball team together, and she told the coach, Hey, Val,
I took Billy out to play tennis. You know, Val said,
(07:18):
you don't know to give free instruction here, instruction in
free court, free coaching here every Tuesday at Holton Park
where we used to play softball. So I went out
and met Clyde Walker, and at the end of that session,
I knew what I wanted to do with my life.
I wanted to be the number one player in the world.
Done why I played shortstop in softball baseball? If I
(07:39):
played baseball, and I probably touched the ball, what six
times in the game, maybe six? Yeah, you get up
to bat, it's like once every nine times. And I'm
thinking to myself, I can hit one hundred balls in
five minutes in tennis. And it's running and it's changing direction. Well,
you played soccer. This is similar. The footwork's very similar.
So I just loved it. And of course I knew
(08:01):
all about tennis by then because I'd read every book.
So and then fast forward to twelve. Now I'm playing
in tournaments to get a ranking, and I was daydreaming
at the Los Angeles Tennis Club and I started to
realize everybody who played at white clothes. They played with
white ball, so everybody who played was white. I said, oh, no,
(08:23):
this is no good, this is not hell.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
You knew this port early.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
Oh, at twelve, I had epiphany. I knew that tennis
was global, which is huge for me because I like
to travel and I think about the world. I don't
just think about hometown everything. And then that was important.
So I love tennis because of that. Get to hit
a thousand balls, Oh god, it's so much fun. And run.
I love to run. And then I thought, you know,
(08:50):
maybe if I can become number one, maybe, but they'll
listen to me a little bit. People will listen. I thought,
you know, I'm going to fight for equality the rest
of my life. And we probably should talk about equity.
But equity is much more difficult to explain. Equality everybody
gets it, gets it. So that's why I still use equality.
(09:13):
I think sports this amazing way to change the world
and to make it a better way world. You know,
the ways to about art and music. Well, they should
always always include sports because we build bridges. Absolutely, we
absolutely build bridges, and people tend to forget sports. We're
kind of left out, and we're now starting to be
included a little.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
It's the universal language everyone speaks, the language of sport
that unifies everyone, and it is such a source of belonging,
you know, Like I feel like so much of life
is lived through so much isolation and loneliness, especially nowadays,
(09:53):
and I really do feel that sport will always be
there to save us and make us feel a part
of something much bigger than our circumstance. So I do
think it's special, special, and that's what made me love
it from the beginning as a as a young kid.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
Who how did you take up soccer?
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Very similar to your your story. I had a brother
and we played everything together. I played basketball, I played baseball.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Weirdly enough, I wanted to be just like him.
Speaker 3 (10:30):
So we's older.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Yeah, he's older.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
How much older?
Speaker 1 (10:32):
He's a year and a half old. It's just a
little older than I am. And if he went to
the pool in baggies, I went to the pool and baggies.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
I never wanted to wear a top.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
I just didn't understand because if my brother didn't have
to do it, why why did I have to wear
this little triangle thing that falls off every time I
canon ball in the pool. So, I mean, I wouldn't
wear top till I was like six or seven. My
Mom's like it's time. Then I I played on all
of his team. So I was on like the all
Star baseball team with my brother and I.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
I was a.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Shortstop catcher, shortstop catcher and pitcher.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
So like I was in it, and I never wanted
to wear my hair up.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
Everyone always made fun of me. I mean, I was.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
So bullied as a child because people looked at me
because I wasn't feminine enough. I wasn't pretty enough. I
wasn't I didn't look the part. But man, I was
a competitor like I. When people made fun of me
or thought, you know, oh you have a girl on
your team, I was like, oh watch.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
I just used it as fuel my whole life.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
I used it as fuel, and I was the competitive
fire in me. It never leaves us. But I just
wanted to be with my brother and I had to
be good enough to be picked first.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
That that was my mindset.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
I didn't want to be the last I didn't. I
didn't want to be just like, oh, well, that's my sister,
she has to come. Like I was an asset to him.
He picked me first for everything because.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
I was damn good at it.
Speaker 3 (12:14):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
And in high school I played softball, I played baseball,
I played basketball, I played soccer.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
I surfed, I skated.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
I was reckless and I thought I could take on
the world and good.
Speaker 3 (12:28):
You know they've done studies now, because you know a
lot of times parents will want their child to specialize
very early. Yes, but they've done research now and they
know that if you've played a lot of different sports
up to when you have to make the decision, maybe
at twelve ish, that you're going to have to do
this full time if you're going to make it. But
if you've played other sports, they've proven that you do
(12:49):
better and you actually will be better at the sport
you specialize in because you did all these other sports,
because you have to really develop different parts of your body.
Like when you're young, it's kick, run and throw. It's
a big bustle groups and then you go to more
fine night groups. But so it's like what was your
best shot, like where were you best at? Like, let's
take soccer, since that's what you're known for, but you know, honestly,
(13:12):
what made you a great soccer player? You know?
Speaker 2 (13:15):
People, I love that you asked.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
I don't usually have people ask me questions on the show,
but I'm right.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
It's good.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
It is so simple for me, and it shocks people
when I say this. I was willing to do the
ship other people weren't willing to do.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Like I didn't cut corners. I was very dedicated to
my craft.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
My father was a big part of my story, and
he was one of those dads who, just like your father,
if you want it bad enough, you'll find a way.
I can't want it more than you. I want to
wake up and see you outside kicking that ball against
the fence, or throwing doing this or doing that in
(14:00):
the streets, playing five hundred with the boys. If you
want to be the best, it is an act and
in a commitment every single day.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
I am not going to do it for you.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
If you want to go to training, I will drive you,
And sure enough I was.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
He had me.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
He was driving me all over the damn place, and
he I don't think he really loved it.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
Too much.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
But it the mindset that he taught me is no
one will save you. I think at the top, Billy,
especially where where we have lived, where the air is
so thin, everyone is good, everyone ever great.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
Absolutely you're talking about it's such a minor difference.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
You're talking about the most.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
It's the smallest percentage that when you're at that elite
level that changes an outcome. It could be one two
percent of a difference that will make you a champion
or not. And for me, I just was willing to
do it all to dedicate my time, my life to
(15:04):
my craft.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
And then when I.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
Started to go to school, I realized, like I have
to be I have to be a student athlete to
be able to go to the places I wanted to go.
And school was hard for me because I was an athlete.
I identified as an athlete through and through. If it wasn't.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Sports, I didn't want.
Speaker 3 (15:25):
To do it.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
So I had to refocus my mindset that if I
wanted to make a career for myself, and I'm you know,
I'm lucky enough to be a product of Title nine,
I would have never been able to go to college
without title Title nine.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
And where'd you go?
Speaker 1 (15:43):
And weirdly, I'll share a story University of North Carolina,
Chapel Hill.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
Oh I know about that, Yes, Starhill.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
I was about thirteen years old, and you know, we talked.
We spoke about being like this bullish person with this
big ego, and I thought I could take on the world,
and I thought I could really do incredible things.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Like I believed in myself.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
More than anyone, like anyone believed in me. I didn't
need affirmation. I really believed in my core that I
was going to be great. So I got my phone
and I had the you know, we still had plug
in phones, and I got the cord one, yep, I
got the court I had the cool little clear phone, and.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
I crawled into my closet.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
I didn't want my parents to hear me have this conversation.
I was thirteen years old and I got antson Drance's
phone number and I called him and I knew I
was going to get in trouble because it was a
long distance call and I was very quiet, and you know,
he picked up the phone. I said, Hi, I'm Ashelyn Harris.
(16:52):
You don't know me, but you will, and I've heard
you don't give full scholarships to women and unless they
play for the US women's national team. I said, I
promise I will be there. I'm just not there yet.
But if you want me to go to your school,
you have to give me a full ride because my
parents can't afford it and I don't want to put
(17:13):
them through that and I don't want to go anywhere
else but Carolina. And I think Anson's never shocked. I
think that is probably one of the most shocking things
he's ever experienced. And and I ended up getting a
full a full scholarship to North Carolina.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
Was he pretty impressed with what you said? I think?
Speaker 2 (17:35):
I think so, sounds like he said, yes, right, Yeah, he.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
Was absolutely shocked. He was like, we will gladly come
watch you play. And I was like, I'm I'm going
to go to I'm going to be a tar heel.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
It is not me and go there. And that was
a really and yeah I went.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
I was the first to graduate college from my entire family,
and it was really really important to my grandmother, who
is no longer here. But she didn't have access to sports,
she didn't have access to go get a college education.
She met my grandfather picking cotton on a farm and
(18:20):
at Sunday School, they you know, thirteen years old, they
started dating. They got married at sixteen and went into
the Air Force, so her life was very different. And
every letter that always would come in from a college coach,
she would always hang it on the refrigerator.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
Oh that's so sweet.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
It was so sweet. So I knew it meant so
much to her.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
And when I graduated, I was drafted into the professional league.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
I didn't end up walking.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
But when I got my diploma, I sent it to
her because I knew how important it was.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
And then I.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
Just recently got it back when she passed away that
she framed it and had it in her her office,
and it was a really proud moment for both of
us because I was the first of the family to.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
Go to school on a full ride. And that is.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
Because you're an athlete.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Title nine go girl, Yeah so I do.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
I always ask this question, and it's really important to me.
This show is really important to me because I think
so often when you make it to the top, people
only want to hear about the successful stories and how
you got there, and there's so much to who we
are behind what we do.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
We don't get there alone, and I think people don't
relist at something. Now it's like family. It's always if
you talk to anybody in the world that really achieves greatness,
they'll tell you all the different people that made the difference.
And for me with so many obviously with my parents,
I mean they work three jobs. So my brother and
I get players are sports and getting him to a
(19:59):
you know, a baseball field and getting me to a
tennis court. We're going different places. Now we're not going
to the same sport. It was rough. And then then
they have to get other parents organized. So they do
a carpool, you know, and you're playing every day in tennis,
you're going. If you win, you go the next day.
If you win, you go the next day. You just
keep going. So you've got to be ready for seven
(20:20):
days if your child wins. They never asked my brother
because my brother at ten years old, I'm five years older.
I'm the opposite of you at the I remember at
the dining room table, I knew he's going to do
this here he told me we're really tight, and he goes.
I just wanted to tell everybody, mom and dad, I
want to be a major League baseball player and my
(20:41):
parents just will are you kidding me? You too want
to be? I love? Oh my my parents are going okay, no.
I could just see them scrambling and thinking, how are
we going to do this? We got one that's killing us.
Now we're gonna have two that we're going to have
to figure this out. But they never asked my brother
and me if we won. M they didn't say. And
(21:04):
this is what parents do to children All the time.
I see it. I watch did you win? Did you win?
Did you win? The kid is so upset, especially if
he or she or they or whatever gender they may be,
that they lost, and it's just why do you do that?
If it's so much just heaving is pressure? And I
think one of the big reasons that my brother and
(21:24):
I made it to the top is that we love pressure.
We thrive on it. He's a relief pitcher. He should
he was going to be a third base or a fielder.
But in the Kawanas T shirt Ley, they're so cute,
the little green little T shirts on Kwanas the sun's setting,
nobody can hit, nobody can pitch. Oh my gosh, no
(21:47):
tea ball yet. So my brother was the only kid
on the team. They got the you know when he pitched,
got the ball with an eight feet of home plate,
so we could have a game and if someone actually
someone pitch it, hit it, some would feel it. And
if they threw it to the first base, everybody stand
up and go yo. Because that happened about once a game.
It took forever because it was hard. They really needed
(22:10):
t ball then. So but my parents are great. We'd
come home or i'd walk in from a tournament, maybe
somebody else took me to LA or just some other place,
and they never said did you win? They always gate, well,
did you have a good day? What kind of day
did you have? And I go, are you kidding? I
lost it. I hate losing. I hate it. And my
(22:30):
dad would say, okay, let me go on and on
and finally say, okay, let me just ask you one question.
Did you try your best? I said, of course, I'd
tried my best. He goes, it's good enough. Start over.
And I think because they were that way with my
brother Randy and me, I think that's why we really
thrived on pressure. We do thrive on it. We like it,
(22:52):
you know, we loved it. I'm talking about sports now,
about real life.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
Yeah, we're gonna get to that.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
That's a whole nother discussion.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
But that's incredible.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
But I think that, I really think that ingredient there
that they did not and Evon Guligan, who was number
one in the world Indigenous Australian, her mother used to
say to her, have a lovely day, and she would
come home and she said, well, did you have a
lovely day? And she was also number one, And if
you listened to a lot of these number ones, there's
(23:26):
a theme there that they just wanted their child and
the child wanted it so bad anyway. I mean I
wanted I wanted to be number one. I was not
interested in anything else. Yeah, and I came from team
sports too, so it's like I always thought of us
were all a team together trying to make our sport
better because I you know, I started as an amateur
and I hated it because we were the best players
(23:48):
in the world, and yet we're called amateurs. I said, well,
amateurs should be a hobby and you're a pro if
you're the best, and said, we're pros. And I used
to tell her and we used to make fourteen dollars
a day. I said, we got a you know, change
it got to change it. So we changed it. But
my generation changed tennis from amateur to pro and that's
(24:09):
I call this the transition generation for doing that. And
but boy, it was hard. It was so difficult. And
I mean I never got any sleep for years, just trying.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
To We still haven't stopped.
Speaker 3 (24:22):
Well, I still get sleep though.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
Now this is Wide Open, and I'm your host, Ashland Harris.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
I have to ask you this question because it is
a question I ask every guest on the show.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
This This show is called wide.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
Open for a reason, and it's you know, seizing the moment.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
Thank you very much, Billy. That means a lot.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
But it's really like separating yourself from the pack. It's
seizing the moment and the opportunity. But also wide open
is peeling back the layers and being open and vulnerable
and living a life authentic to who you are. I'm
curious of what moment in your life, whether professionally or personally,
(25:22):
really split you wide open that changed changed it all
for you, your your path, your mindset. What was that moment
that changed.
Speaker 3 (25:31):
It's obvious when Susan asked me to play tennis, I
still see Susan, and she lives in Philly, and every
time I see it's all I go, it's all your
fault and it's all her fault. But she's on my
blessing list every day too. I do a blessing list
in my head every morning. I'm waking up to be
thankful for people and whatever. Susan's always on my list
because look at the life I've had. Because she said,
(25:53):
do you want to play tennis? I mean, I never
heard it. So I'm always thankful to her. And then
I got married in sixty five, totally in love with him.
Met him at calcay La. I saw him across the
room and went, who's he?
Speaker 1 (26:06):
Hmm?
Speaker 3 (26:06):
Great love, got married and then I start to realize
that maybe I like women and men. But during the seventies,
when we started women's professional tennis, I was told by
sponsors if I say anything about what I'm feeling that
they wouldn't have a tour. So that was really easy.
That's all. Keep my mouth shut. And at the same time,
(26:30):
I'm trying to figure out who I am, and I
asked Larry for a divorce because I didn't think I
was being fair to him. I couldn't. I just could
not figure out who I am.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
How When did that start for you, though? Did you feel?
Speaker 3 (26:42):
Probably after we're married, for sure, So not as a child.
You didn't know. In college one girl came and kissed me. Yeah,
I don't felt liked it or not, but I was shocked.
But no, no, I always dated guys and love guys,
and yeah, had no understanding. I thought it was straight.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
How because it's it's so important, because your visibility and
who you are and how you show up is so
important for our community, as you know, because it is
tough and it is.
Speaker 3 (27:16):
Well in those days, you couldn't do it. You can today.
Now we're celebrated, which is great, great, But then we
were not celebrated. I did have an affair with Marilyn
Barnett and she outed me at eighty one.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
What was that like for you, Billy?
Speaker 3 (27:29):
It was terrible because of being outed, You're not doing
anything on your own terms. You're reacting, dear. Yeah, and
by then, by any one, I'd met Ilana, who I'm
married to now, and I knew she was the one.
She's incredible, and we were still being quiet. She wanted
to stay quiet too, she's from South Africa didn't want
her family to know. And when I was out it,
I lost all my endorsements immediately except for one company,
(27:54):
but they dropped the price on me really low, which
was worse actually in some ways so basic. I didn't
have any endorsements and I was at the end of
my career, so I was just now going to start
to make some real money because they were going to
give me lifetime endorsements, and I lost all this, so
I basically had to start over. But in a way
it was a blessing because I did start to live
(28:17):
an authentic life to your point, but it was excruciating.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
How did you separate it, Billy? When you were playing?
Speaker 3 (28:26):
How did you The tennis court was my sanctuary.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
That was your place to feel safe.
Speaker 3 (28:32):
Nobody can ask me for an autograph. Nobody can ask
me anything except the umpire maybe. Yeah, No, I was
like then, I was even more thankful that I had
this this stage because to me, a tennis court's my
stage anyway, or our stage if it's doubles or whatever.
So I love every time I see a tennis court
any place I can see in a cornfield, see a
(28:52):
tennis court, and I go ah right, it's a stage.
It's I just love it. It's math, it's science, it's art.
It's you know, you shape time and space. I mean
you do that when you played soccer. I don't think
people used to say, what's tennis. I used to say
it's art and science to me because there's so much
math in it. I remember geometry and going, ah god,
(29:13):
I don't know. Then I went to went out to
play and I went, are you kidding? This is geometry, dummy.
And so then I had a great time in class.
I couldn't wait to go to geometry, and I'd relate
everything to my tennis. It's like, oh, this is great.
So I loved it. But to get back to the
tough times is like the court really was the sanctuary.
(29:36):
But I was basically finished by the time I was
out it. I was old, and I retired in eighty three,
I was forty. But I love to play.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
It's that that moment that is so special, that was forced,
and the moment was taken by someone else.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
But what I noticed most, Billy, is your entire career.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
Everyone had an opinion of you, the way you look,
the way you moved, You wear glasses like Oh, that's.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
Another good thing. Every kid, you know that what everybody
used to tell me, it's a kid when I wear glasses.
There's never been a number one player that wears glasses.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
How did you not let it penetrate?
Speaker 3 (30:24):
Though I penetrated. I want, I said, I'll show them
I'm going to be number one. And so every child
that has to wear glasses and every person you just
do whatever you want. Let's go. And I see babies,
you know, with little glasses, and you know a lot
of kids have challenges with their eyes, and I always
make a comment I love their frames. Oh my god,
look at those glasses. Are so cute. Because I want
(30:47):
them to feel that it's special. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
I read a story that when you were in junior's
your mom made you a pair of tennis shorts and
you were removed, moved from a picture.
Speaker 3 (31:01):
That's the very first time I played in a sanctioned
tournament to get a ranking, and we looked up what
are you supposed to wear? What's the uniform? Because I
played softball, basketball, volleyball, did track and feel, I did
all these other sports. And like it says you have
to wear a white soul, I'll make you some shorts,
and then I wear a white blouse and it was impeccable.
(31:21):
You know it means clean whistle and tennis shoes. I
used to polish my shoes with white polish to make
them absolutely be perfect, but they didn't. I'd never seen
a tennis dress or a skirt until that day. I
went to watch some matches and I go, oh, what
are those? What do they call those? Well then I said,
(31:43):
well they have a skirt. What do you call those
other things? What do you call them? Their tennis dress?
And I didn't know that until that day. But he said,
little girl, you can't be in the photo because you're
not wearing a skirt or a dress. Well, we've never
seen one. And I was furious with him, Perry T. Jones,
because you cannot do that to children. Should always accept them.
(32:03):
And I remember my mother being mortified and so embarrassed,
and I went over and I whispered in her. I go, Mommy,
don't you worry. I'll show him one day.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
Oh I love it.
Speaker 3 (32:14):
And so I wasn't in the photo because I was
wearing shorts. I said, don't worry. And I said, but
I whispered to her because she was just so embarrassed
for her child and her you know, she had made
a mistake, and I said, you didn't. It's not about you, mommy,
it's about him. So anyway, I was furious with him.
But my mother immediately went home that night and sewed
(32:36):
me a tenistra, and my brother brought it up the
other day, you know, remembering my mother on the floor
with a with a cup making the scallops for around
the trim. And I love that dress to this day
because my mother made it, and I know the circumstances
that that caused her to sew it, because we didn't
have the money to buy things, so she was so
(32:56):
we didn't have the money to go out to eat.
Oh my god. We finally got to go out to eat,
to get a hamburg or something, and my mom would say,
you can't have both a coke and a milkshake. You
I have to want of it or French fries or whatever.
Of course I shouldn't be eating that anyway, And they'll say,
we didn't know better. That's back in the fifties.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
So you have been very open with how things looked
and felt for you, and the scrutiny that everyone placed
on you through your career and you have been open
about having a eating disorder during that process.
Speaker 3 (33:32):
And no, I still I'm always every morning I wake
up and go, I have an eating disorder, just like
if you're an alcoholic or anything else, do you admit
it every day. I went to Renfrew and Philadelphia for
six weeks lived there. I still have therapy every week
from the therapist from Renfrew, which is great because I
don't have to go, well, here's my family history. She
knows everything. One of my dreams, one of my wants
(33:55):
is to make the definitive docu on eating disorders. Being
at Renfrew for six weeks, living with all these different people,
girls that they don't have women there that have eating disorders,
it really taught me so much about why we have them,
what do we do about it, and how can we
(34:19):
get through this and be healthy. So it's been a
really unbelievable journey just in that area. I really want
to make this film and I've started to talk a
lot to different people to get this done because I
want it to be about all the eating disorders. But
how can I really help? How can we really help
(34:41):
someone that has an eating disorder?
Speaker 1 (34:43):
One in every two women drop out of sports at
an early age because of body issues.
Speaker 3 (34:50):
Right, I did something for Dove the other day at
in New Orleans. It's about they tell them they have
the wrong body type. Yeah, I think it's forty five percent.
Since can you believe that?
Speaker 1 (35:00):
Kid?
Speaker 3 (35:01):
Well, what did I talk to you? What did I
say at the beginning, near the beginning about socialization? We're socialized.
We have to be perfect, perfect, and girls always feel
this little nudge inside. I'll talk about myself because God,
it can't judge you or somebody else, but it's this
little nudge that we're not quite good enough.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
Even in twenty twenty five, we still in terms of
media coverage.
Speaker 3 (35:23):
Oh look at it.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
It's still about physical attributes. These women are showing up.
You know.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
You talk about Alona mar at the Olympics, the rugby player,
and she was in tears saying, I need this body
to do great things, to be powerful, and it's worth
educating exactly. It's we still are told every single day
(35:50):
we don't look the right way, where we don't fit
the right sizes.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
It's it's exhausting.
Speaker 3 (35:55):
Well, when we started women's professional tennis, there was nine
of us tournament in Houston, Texas. Gladys Hellman helped us
get it done. She was the publisher of World Tennis magazine,
and there were nine of us. Were called the original
nine because the tournament in Houston is the birth of
(36:15):
women's professional tennis the way you know it today. That's
where it started. That is the beginning, okay, And here
are the three things that we came up with that
if any girl born in this world is good enough,
she'll have a place to compete. Number two, to be
appreciated for our accomplishments, not only only our looks.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (36:41):
And number three to be able to make a living
playing tennis, this sport we love. But the number two
was to be appreciated for accomplishments. Like guys are they
appreciate for their compeishtions. It's not always about their looks,
is it? But Nils? For instance, in college, the girls
who are sexualizing themselves most make the most money. So
(37:03):
what are we encouraged to do. We're encouraged if it's
more money. We're encouraged to sexualize ourselves. But we're never
quite perfect, you know, we're always itchy. I don't know,
there's that little itch like we're never quite good enough.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
You are one of the most famous athletes of all time,
and all of this scrutiny and all of this.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
Access people have to you to watch you. Ninety million
people watched you win the Battle of the Sexes.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
I am curious how other people's expectation of you, Billy,
has impacted your self worth and your career. How do
you move in the world with that on your shoulder.
Speaker 3 (37:58):
I don't mind that at all.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
You don't know.
Speaker 3 (38:00):
And also I knew when I played Bobby Riggs back
in nineteen seventy three, and he's a former number one player,
and I knew all about him. I love my history,
and I'd seen little tapes of him they only used
in the old days, maybe get two shots or three shots.
I read all his books, so I knew a lot
about him. He knew nothing about me, which is normal anyway,
(38:22):
that's a whole another discussion you want. But I knew
that I would be remembered for this match. If I
lost the match, they'd always say the rest of my life,
oh there goes that girl. She lost to that guy.
And so I thought to myself, that's ridiculous. But I
also knew it was an opportunity would have a lot
of people watching. It was a title nine had been
(38:43):
passed the year before. We'd had our women's professional Tour,
which started really in seventy one, and this is September
seventy three. We just formed our Tennis Association June twenty one,
seventy three before Wimbledon, and Wimbledon was the big one
to win. It still probably is. And seventy three was
(39:07):
an amazing year. I mean difficult, a lot of pressures
that I actually liked. I knew this match could help.
If it could help Title nine, could help women's sports,
if it could help women and men, because we kind
of keep learning about each other. We couldn't get a
credit card on our own in nineteen seventy three. Can
(39:28):
you imagine Larry went to law school in the late sixties,
my former husband, And every time you get all these
forms for credit cards, he go, you see this, they
should be coming to you. You're the famous one. You're
the one that's making money right now. I'm just a student.
But they think I'm a lot of student and I'll
eventually have money. Is the reason I'm getting these, he said,
(39:49):
It's ridiculous. Larry's such a feminist. He's great. He just
used to get crazed about that because he was correct.
Most guys probably didn't think about it, and most women
probably not either. But the point was, I knew this
time in history, this could make or break where we
go left or right, or forward or backwards or whatever.
So I knew it was really crucial to give you
(40:11):
an idea. The super Bowl that year got fifty three million.
Now it gets one hundred and twenty six or seven million,
but that gives you and we're ninety million, so that
gives you an idea. The how many people watch it,
and it was worldwide, it wasn't just the US. But
I knew for me personally that I thought it could
help change things for the future. President Obama was twelve
(40:35):
years old. He told me how much that match affected
him as a child. He raised two young girls, and
he made him think for the first time about it.
And I got all this feedback from people, so I
knew it was vital that I win for all these
various reasons. So and I knew people would remember me
(40:57):
for that. Unfortunately, I think all these other things, but
I knew that's what people and they do. I mean
especially older people now remember it. Grandchildren every grandchildren still
do interviews with me.
Speaker 1 (41:12):
Yes, But Billy, all you have done is advocated and advocated.
Speaker 2 (41:19):
You are such a giver.
Speaker 1 (41:21):
You dedicated you honestly, you've dedicated and you're still doing it. Billy,
you have dedicated your whole entire life to make it
better for people like me.
Speaker 2 (41:32):
What do you do?
Speaker 1 (41:33):
Just like that?
Speaker 2 (41:34):
It is a beautiful That's for me too.
Speaker 3 (41:36):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (41:36):
This is what you do.
Speaker 3 (41:38):
Know, it's great to get your cup. It does still
my cup. And okay, I'll tell you what I'm doing
for Billy. For me is I'm going back to college.
Speaker 2 (41:48):
I love that.
Speaker 3 (41:49):
I had three years at calcay La and I dropped
out to be number one in the world because I
had to get going. I mean just going back to school.
I mean I was. I was a history major. And
the whole office is so excited for me, helping me.
Let's get you the books whatever. And I'm reading, of course,
(42:10):
I'm trying to read. Plus I've got work. I'm like,
oh my god, and I love to underline everything with
my pencil. I'm so bad. I just had, you know,
like five new books arrive because I think I want
to talk about Title nine actually in my final paper,
because I lived it, and I've already been reading books
that don't have things right, and I'm like, oh god,
I don't know what to do. No, I was there.
Speaker 1 (42:31):
It's physically, you.
Speaker 3 (42:33):
Know, and change, and they don't have it right. And
I'm like, but I lived in this. I need to
make it right. So I've got a chance to do
a great thing. Just but I want to finish. I
like finishing. It's like when you go to net and
you shake hands, or like when you finish your soccer
game or whatever. There's something about sports. It starts. There's
that beginning, middle, and end. I don't know. It's fascinating.
(42:54):
But i feel the same way with graduating. So I'm
calling it the road to graduation. Good for you, you
try not. I mean, I had three years already, which
I thought i'd had two years. I had three. So
by next year I'll be able to graduate, I hope.
And maybe it'll encourage others to finish it. I don't know.
And whatever your life work is, whatever you want to do,
(43:15):
the way you want to look at something. But I
think people underestimate themselves a lot of times.
Speaker 1 (43:23):
I'll be back in just a moment after this brief
message from our sponsors. Well, you are definitely the epitome
of showing everyone what is possible, and we are in
(43:45):
such a unique spot in women's sports because you will.
You have allowed us to stand on your shoulders. Right now,
we're having a very very big splash in women's sports.
Speaker 3 (44:00):
Don't get, don't get this is what it's not where
you want to always stay humble.
Speaker 2 (44:05):
Though, yes, it's not where you want to stay.
Speaker 3 (44:07):
Humble, keep because you never you can lose it overnight
and it takes years. You can build it, and people
have to remember that it takes years to build it.
It can go away overnight.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
You said something really.
Speaker 3 (44:21):
Important to me.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
You said, we're clearly not where we want to be,
but we are at a tipping point. And for me,
I've lived my whole life to see this start happening.
I know if I had died tomorrow, it's just starting.
But this is what I've worked for my whole life.
That's true, to help us have.
Speaker 2 (44:46):
More in women's sports.
Speaker 1 (44:50):
Right you have laid the groundwork for this moment and
for you to be able to see full stadiums for
you to see pay equity and equality, and it's not
where we want it to be, but we are making
a big leap for you to see your life's work.
Speaker 2 (45:10):
In this moment. How does that make you feel?
Speaker 3 (45:17):
I don't really stop and think about it that much
because we got to we have to keep going. I know,
I'm very blessed, but I'm enjoying this because I still
have enough energy to keep trying to help it. But
more importantly, I know it's on its way if we
don't blow it. But you can blow it, you know
how that is? Yep, you can be in a position
(45:38):
of winning and you can blow it quickly. So you
and that's what we learn in sports and for everyday life,
is that we have to and every generation has to
continue it, you know. And what players will come up
to me, Well, I'll talk about tennis because I know that,
But they'll come up to me and they'll go, what
(45:58):
should I do? I said, learn the business? For instance,
I say, did you get paid it the last tournament
you paid played in? Of course I got paid. I said,
did you go ask the owner of that tournament or
promoter of that tournament how he or she or they
did they get this biggest blank on their face, like
what I said, do you realize they worked the whole
(46:20):
year so you can have this one week tournament and
they may have lost money, but you got your check.
And they look at me like I never thought of that.
I said, well, I'd like you to think about it,
because maybe someday you will own a tournament. You don't know.
Larry and I own tournaments. We started in nineteen sixty eight.
(46:41):
We did an eight person tournament Oakland Coliseum. We made money.
Larry's in law school. Everything. Larry thought everything was great.
Second time we'd do the same thing, it rained, it
was horrible. We lost money. He woke up and said,
I don't know anything, instead of thinking you know everything
when you're young. It was hysterical. But the different the
(47:02):
reason I was able. I had this vision anyway as
a young girl to change things. But owning tournaments taught
me so much. I'll give you a perfect example. First,
I'll say three things. Ed Woollard who used to be
CEO of DuPont he's passed on now, but he and
I spent three years trying to figure out what the
(47:24):
people that have inner success, happiness and outer do well.
What do they have. So we ended up with these
three things, and they don't have to be in this order.
Relationships are everything. Number two to learn and to keep learning,
how to learn, keep learning and keep learning how to learn.
(47:45):
And number three, to be a problem solver. And then
I had an innovator.
Speaker 2 (47:50):
Because yes, of course you did.
Speaker 3 (47:52):
Those are the three things, and they can be in
any order you want. But I will guarantee you if
you go through your day, you'll touch those things every
single day of your life in some way or another.
Let's go to nineteen seventy two. I won the US Open.
I'm in the media and I said to the media,
(48:14):
I was so angry. I made ten thousand dollars this
winning and Nastasi won twenty five thousand. I was furious
we had the same amount of people watching us. I said,
you know what, I don't think the girls, the women
are going to come. We're not going to We're not
going to come back next year unless we get equal money.
And then I go to myself inside. I go, oh, Billy,
(48:35):
you've just blown it. You haven't talked to the women
about this. What are you doing. You've made the biggest mistake.
But because Larry and I own tournaments, and because I
had good relationships with different people and different sponsors, I
went to the different potential sponsors and said, would you
together individually or would you put up the difference in
(48:58):
the prize money so women can have equal prizeman in
next year at the U's Open, and Bristol Myers came
up to me and said, yes, we'll do the whole thing.
In those days, it wasn't very much. It was like
fifty five thousand dollars and seventy three That was a
lot of money. And I said, are you really? But
why did that happen? Because we had the relationship. Yes,
Marvin Coslow was a great guy from Bristol Myers. I
(49:20):
know he helped make it happen. And because I had
said in the media, oh, it stinks that we don't
get equal money, they said, you know what you said,
it stinks. It's about money. I keep trying to explain
to the players and Jared, you, guys, it's about money.
You have to you have to find a way to
get the money. And so because of these relationships, I
was able. That's the reason that happened. We had we
(49:43):
were like almost friends, and I don't think most athletes
understand it. Understand the business, understand what a sponsor wants. Yes,
understands what the people that are coming to watch want.
You know. It is another thing. It gets me crazy,
Hennis particularly. You know how we all have our headsets on,
(50:03):
which I understand they're making money. I want them to
have them on. But when you get to the court,
to the outside of the court, and you can keep
them on for a little bit to stand there. But
remember we are there for the audience and the players
today the athletes today think the audience is there for them. No,
we're the entertainers. Our job is to make them happy,
(50:27):
not for them to make us happy. And I think
players today they're always saying, yeah, I want to hear it,
I want to hear it here. You know, they're with
their hands and I'm like, you know what, you guys
were there for them. Our greatness is to give back,
to give to the audience and make it. You know,
we're entertainers to give to the entertainers should get back
all the time. Absolutely how much we get when we're playing.
(50:50):
Can you hear the audience going on? That's when you
kick the ball for an hour ninety minutes. That is
a privilege to be a pro athlete. It's about we
instead of I. When you listen to interviews, see how
many times you hear word I we us the team.
Every player's taught to say the team. That's they go, oh,
the team, you know, and thanks and thanks for coming
out to watch me. Every player it's taught that. Every
(51:13):
athlete's taught to say that. But the sincerity of it,
do you really understand the ramifications? Do you understand how
you can take the world forward and make it a
better place? And you know those are the things to
get me crazy. No, it's like talk about the other players,
talk about your owners, talk about them, you know, they
talk about the fans. They always include the fans, but
(51:34):
they don't really I always wanted to do something special.
I don't know. I think it's important to talk about
other athletes, not yourself all the time. Leadership with empathy
is the greatest leadership.
Speaker 2 (51:45):
I think that's heavy.
Speaker 1 (51:46):
I love that for someone who has done so much
and pave the way for so many What is the
legacy you want to leave behind, Billy? Like, what do
you do you want to be known for?
Speaker 3 (52:03):
I don't think about that. I think legacy is what
other people think about you, But it's really the contributions
you make as you live on this earth that really,
I think define you. I think that's the accomplishments and
what you give is really what defines you. But I
think legacy, I never think about legacy like that. I
(52:24):
think legacy is really what people decide about you. I think,
don't you think that?
Speaker 2 (52:28):
That's very fair?
Speaker 1 (52:29):
And I've never heard anyone frame it that way.
Speaker 3 (52:33):
I think it's the contributions. Really, that's the what we
contribute to make this world a better place, and.
Speaker 1 (52:39):
You've dedicated your entire life to that, and I am
so grateful.
Speaker 3 (52:45):
It's been fun to sit.
Speaker 1 (52:49):
And be able to have this beautiful conversation with you.
I am grateful I get to sit on your board
and represent you and continue to carry the torch to
lead the way in building a better future for women
in sports and specially queer women.
Speaker 2 (53:07):
Thank you, Billy, Thanks.
Speaker 3 (53:09):
For being Thanks, Yeah, thanks for earning on. I love
your show. I'm glad you have it. This will help too.
Every time a woman athlete has the show, it makes
a difference, and you're going to make a huge difference.
You already have. Thank you, but anyway, I know we're
in good shape if we have people like you.
Speaker 2 (53:24):
Thanks Billy, that means a lot.
Speaker 1 (53:26):
Thanks, Thanks everyone for tuning in, and we will see
you next week on Wide Open.
Speaker 2 (53:31):
With Ashlin Harris.
Speaker 1 (53:34):
Wide Open with Ashlin Harris is an iHeart women's sports production.
Speaker 2 (53:38):
You can find us on.
Speaker 1 (53:39):
The iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Our producers are Carmen Borca, Coreo, Emily Maronov, and Lucy Jones.
Production assistants from Malia Aguidello. Our executive producers are Jesse Katz,
Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rudder.
Speaker 2 (53:59):
Are at are
Speaker 1 (54:00):
Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rudder, and I'm your host, Ashlyn
Harris
Host
Ashlyn Harris
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