June 20, 2024 • 25 mins
Danielle gives her thoughts on Juneteenth being a federal holiday, and talks with Jonathan Metzl about the steady decline of America as convicted felon Donald Trump's presidential campaign continues to heat up.
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Speaker 1 (00:11):
Good morning, peeps, and welcome to ookf Daily with me
your girl Daniel Moody recording from the Home Bunker. I'm
recording this on Juneteenth, and you know you'll listen to
this tomorrow. And I just have some thoughts to get
off my chest about Juneteenth being a federal holiday. And
(00:33):
I posted a video yesterday saying that, like, I'm not
feeling Juneteenth as a federal holiday, and the reason being
is because I don't think that white people and non
black people, who there is no curriculum that was created,
have no understanding whatsoever, just get another day off. It
(00:53):
means absolutely nothing. And I'm tired of living inside of
a country that, instead of providing equity and justice for
black people who have been exploited, abused, murdered, lynched, raped, beaten, subjugated,
and oppressed for you know, damn near a millennial, that
(01:15):
instead of providing us with the justice that would look
like reparations in a number of ways, reparations doesn't look
like money, it looks like a whole lot of things. Instead,
just throw a fucking holiday our way. And this is
the same holiday that, oh yeah, the state of Florida
(01:35):
gets to take off while they go ahead and ban
quote unquote critical race theory and ban books and banned
curriculum and fire teachers. So it's like, what are we
really learning here? Right? Like what are we really learning? Nothing?
And that's the point, right, The point is to pacify, right,
Not to create critical thought, not to make amends for
(02:03):
past brutality. It is to pacify. And so I do
have deep feelings about this holiday and the way that
it was introduced after the murder of George Floyd in
thinking that somehow the leaders of this country are doing
(02:25):
something so that they can pat themselves on the fucking
back about it, doing what exactly? Because I'll tell you
that the last surviving witnesses to the Tulsa massacre that
happened over one hundred years ago were just denied a
hearing in court at the Oklahoma Supreme Court. So they
(02:48):
will die having had no reparations for state sensioned and
federally senioned mob violence that killed over three hundred people
and destroyed an entire fucking town. And those people got nothing,
and one hundred years later, we still do nothing for them.
(03:08):
So what is a holiday? It means nothing without any context,
without any curriculum, without any thoughtfulness whatsoever. So for me,
you know, I'm over it. I will not use this
day as a day to educate others. I will not
use it as a day to provide infographics on this, that,
(03:31):
and the fucking other thing. Like I want white people
and non black people in this country to be curious,
to be intellectually fucking curious, and be rigorous about learning
and unlearning so that we can forge a better future
because I don't see how we do it, because I
sure as fuck am tired of pulling people along. Coming
(03:54):
up next, my conversation with our friend, our in house doctor,
doctor Jonathan metzil Well. Jonathan and I talk about a
range of things today, mostly in the fact that I'm
just like you know, it's summer. I am in a
place where I'm just like I need a break. I
need a mental break, I need a physical break. I
need all of the breaks, as I'm certain that all
(04:15):
of you do as well. And so how to balance
out the need and the desire to slow down when
the news cycle and the world around us continues to
spin out of control. That conversation is coming up next, folks.
You know that whenever we have the opportunity to sit
down with our in house doctor, doctor Jonathan mepsl I
(04:36):
am always thrilled and Jonathan today what is on my mind?
What is on my mind is that it's summer. It's
nice outside, and like, I don't want to talk about
the end of the world every single day all day.
I want to, you know, just some days. I want
to pretend is that healthy? Is that? Is that Okay?
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Hey, I'm happy to pretend there's something I was to
ask you. But we can also pretend to.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
No ask me, ask me whatever, ask me whatever you'd like.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
Well, first, it's lovely out. I love summer. I love
all the puppies and the daffodils on all that stuff.
So no worries there. We can talk about summer trips
or vacations or fun stuff. We could talk about summer reads,
or we could talk about Donald Trump campaign targeting Black
Americans and how you feel about it.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Well, here are my quick summer plans. I don't often
leave New York in summer because I think that summer
in New York is beautiful and it's the best time
to be here. And so I will be doing a
lot of trips out east and just kicking it with
my fam on Long Island. As it pertains to Donald
Trump and his push for black voters, you know he
(05:51):
was in New York. He was in New York a
couple of weeks ago up in the Bronx at a
rally that they couldn't get anybody too, so I think
they paid people to attend. He was recently at a
black church where the attendees were not members of the
congregation of that church, nor could the preacher that leads
(06:12):
that church. When he went out to try and get
people to come in, they laughed in his face. But nonetheless,
I think it was in Michigan. They did a call
to the GOP out there and so a bunch of
white people showed up in blacks for Trump T shirts.
Irony is not lost on them at all. So what
do I think about Donald Trump's push. I think it's
(06:33):
like most things that Donald Trump pushes. I think it's fraudulent.
I think it's a lie, just as I think it
was Kelly and Conway that was on Fox News that
said that there were eight thousand people there at the church,
a church, by the way, that only holds several hundred.
But you know whatever, like if it's going to be
why not say there were eighty thousand people that were there,
Because if you're gonna lie, just like make it even bigger.
(06:56):
So do I think that it's a concerted effort. No?
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Do.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
I think that they will always be a facet of
the black community and the LATINX community that think that
their proximity to whiteness will save them and that they
hold up as the best thing, you know, for them. Yeah,
I do. And so those are my thoughts. What did
you think about the blacks for Trump white people?
Speaker 2 (07:18):
I actually see this. I mean I agree with everything
you said about like the content of it being farcical,
but I think it's a pretty serious concern actually for
a couple of reasons. I mean, one was that we
just saw more black and Latino voters vote for Trump
every time he ran, and especially in the last election.
I think there was a lot of surprise, particularly among
Latino voters, at the kind of support that Trump was getting.
(07:42):
But I think that, you know, for me, it's more
the fifty thousand foot issue that I think a lot
of people are missing. I mean, absolutely, the thing was farcical,
and you know, you expected like people to show up
like dressed like black people, So that.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
Really, I mean, I wouldn't put it past them, So.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
It was that ridiculous. But the two things that I
think are important to note. Number one was the New
York rally. It's almost like striking in the heart of
the opposition territory. So it didn't have to be a
success for them to call it a success. I don't
see Biden going to like the heart of red state,
(08:20):
rural NRA kind of country, which would be at corarel it.
So I think the very fact that it happened, it
wasn't so much to try to convince New York black
voters that they're going to love Trump. It was like
an op to show this guy is so brave that
he's actually taking it into the opposition's territory. And so
I have a feeling I don't know this for sure,
but I bet it did a lot of work beyond
(08:42):
like our core audience, the goal wasn't to convince anybody.
It was to show that Trump is like taking it
onto other people's turf and suggesting he has brought a appeal.
So that was concern number one for me about this.
But the bigger concern for me was actually the thing
in Detroit, because I actually watched it and it was
pretty sneaky evil what he was saying actually, because he
(09:04):
was saying, the Biden policies are bringing in all these
immigrants who are stealing your jobs basically, And so in
a way, again, I don't think that massive numbers of
black voters are going to vote for Trump, but in
a place like Detroit, where you're already like Michigan, you
already have arib Americans like really questioning who they're going
(09:26):
to vote for and things like that, you just to
be able to peel off enough black voters. And so
I thought that that message of like, immigrants are stealing
your jobs, like I've heard that before, because that's what
they told white voters in my research on dying of whiteness.
And it turns out like that is a message that
just really scares the Jesus out of people. And it
(09:47):
can work like, oh, yeah, this guy's going to save
my job by stopping competition. That's a fifty year old playlist,
but it's not in an effective one. And so I
guess that was my bigger concern again, beyond the farce
of it, was just the way they're crafting. This seems
far from random to me and something that I find
more concerning I think than other people do.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
I mean, I don't think that anything that they do
is random, right, I Like, nothing that they do is random.
Everything is part of the largest strategy. And when your
strategy is just to lie, like you don't really have
to prove a lot, right, Like, all you have to
do is go to the place and show up and
then lie about the crowds and lie about what it
is that you're telling them, and lie about what opportunities
(10:28):
that you're going to provide. And the thing that I
continue to ask people is like when you look at
the four years of Donald Trump's administration, like, how did
you feel? Right? Like, honestly, like, how did you feel?
How did you feel emotionally? How did you feel physically?
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Like?
Speaker 1 (10:42):
How did you feel? Because if I'm the Biden administration,
if I'm any Democrat that's running for office in twenty
twenty four, that's the question that I'm going to be
asking my voters. How did you feel from twenty seventeen
until January sixth, twenty twenty one? What was your ongoing
sentiment in your body, in your heart, in your mind right,
(11:02):
because I will tell you that for a lot of people,
it was fear, it was anxiety. It was lots of
people had lost their jobs, lots of people had lost
their lives because of that administration. We were just aghast
at Charlottesville, agast at George Floyd, agast at Donald Trump
(11:24):
turning the police on peaceful protesters. Like so when I
see instances like that, it isn't so much about how
do we come bad and like, oh, doesn't Donald Trump
look tough? Like yeah, I guess if you're a fucking idiot,
like I guess if you're looking at the imagery of
Donald Trump on horseback looking like Sylvester Stallone out of
(11:45):
nineteen eighties Rambow, and that is your like Christen yeah
or Putin, and that's your personification of like what masculinity
should look like. But you don't actually look at what
Donald Trump looked like in the courthouse in New York City,
then like, yeah, my whole thing is right now. As
we were speaking, the Biden administration, the Biden campaign excuse me,
(12:10):
put out a really great attack ad and it is
the first attack ad that has come out since the
thirty four felony convictions that calls Donald Trump a felon,
that actually says that here's what Donald Trump has done.
He's been convicted of thirty four felons, he's liable for
sexual assault, his university was fraudulent, his businesses are fraudulent,
(12:33):
and he's running a criminal enterprise. So your choice for
president is a criminal, a convicted criminal, a convicted felon,
or somebody that is fighting for democracy. Like, those are
your choices. And that to me was like a really
important smart ad and I need to see more of it,
and I need to see it everywhere.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
No, I think that's right because you know, people like
you and I wear news junkies. We know who are
going to vote for for the part for the president,
and then you know the other side, people are very
very mobilized on the other side. So it's kind of
like the people who are just now paying attention who
need like something simple, I think something like that that's like,
(13:13):
oh yeah, it's this or that, it's this or that,
And I think, you know, because always these elections, it's
kind of like the people who are just now starting
to pay attention or won't start paying attention, those are
the people who are going to decide it. But man,
the margins are unbelieve It's unbelievable how closely divided all
of this is right now. And so no, I think
you're right. Any kind of simple messaging that makes this
(13:36):
a polarizing choice between one thing or another and overturns
all this other stuff that's coming out, you know. So yeah,
so I think that's right. But again I did think again.
I watched that Detroit rally, the Detroit Church thing, and
I thought, this guy's not just like flying off the
handle like he did last time. Actually felt it felt
much more strategic than I was expecting.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
And that is one strategic speech that Trump gives in
a sea of one hundred that he has given where
I actually have am forced to listen to some of
these clips, I'm and I stopped them thirty seconds in,
and I'm just like, what am I listening to?
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Like?
Speaker 1 (14:14):
What am I supposed to be looking for here? Because
this is actually like nonsensical. It doesn't I think it's words,
but it's definitely not a sentence, and it definitely has
no context anywhere. And so I think that this election
is really simple. I actually think that this is one
of the most simple elections of our time. It is
(14:36):
you see what the Supreme Court is doing. Joe Biden
just said this again recently, and I'm like, you need
to say this everywhere and every time that there's a
microphone in your face. He's like, if Donald Trump is reelected,
he is going to have the ability to appoint two
more Supreme Court justices. Right, the Supreme Court is taking
(14:56):
away every single rite that was won in the twentieth
cent entry. I didn't appoint those justices. Donald Trump did
because we weren't paying attention to the courts the way
that Leonard Leo and Mitch McConnell and the Republicans have been.
So do you want a Trump Court for not only
(15:17):
the rest of your life, but the rest of your
children's life and the potentially the rest of their children's lives,
because that's what we're up against. Like, this is not
fucking rocket science here. I don't need to part and parcel. Well,
where is Donald Trump on immigration? How does he feel
about putin in Ukraine? Where will we be you know
(15:37):
in terms of workers' rights? It's like it's pretty clear.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Well, you know, it's funny because when I did the
dying of whiteness research. And I've said this as zillion
times in our conversations grassroots, everyday, working class, poor white Americans,
they all cared about the courts. Even when they were
being offered their own free healthcare under the Affordable Care Act,
they would tell me, no, we care about the courts.
(16:03):
I mean, it was such a top to bottom message
for Trump supporters and they weren't even Trump supporters yet.
This was like twenty fourteen. In fact, that's what the
book I'm writing now is about, is that when in
twenty fourteen, I was doing these focus groups, I didn't
even understand what people were saying, because I said, hey,
here's some free healthcare for you and you're sick, and
(16:23):
people would answer me, I care more than we overturn abortion.
And I'd be like, what does this have to do
with your healthcare? But they they kind of saw the
They saw like people on the ground who like literally
were trading away their health their health saw the picture.
And I just say, like, I just always think like, oh,
that's what it took to get Trump elected. For example,
(16:43):
in twenty sixteen, was people who rejected Obamacare, because if
Obamacare would have gone into practice, it would have meant
Centrists would have taken power and institutions and democracy and cooperation,
all these things, but they rejected it and dismantled it
in order to have their own power. And in a way,
that's the kind of focus it took to get those
(17:07):
Supreme Court justices, which is people like literally laid down
on the tracks themselves. And the question is, are democrats
like that?
Speaker 1 (17:16):
To me?
Speaker 2 (17:16):
That is the only message. You know, you and I've
been talking about judges for many days hit now, and
that's kind of what it took to get here. And
so the question is are Democrats up to the challenge
of that flip message, which I think is exactly right. Like,
you know, if you think I don't know, like I don't.
My driver's license is coming up for renewal. I don't
have to think about my politics. I just want to
(17:37):
go to the office and renew my driver's license. And
then I thought, Man, if Trump's president, I wonder if
I can get a renewed driver's license. You know, every
they're going to replace every office with some political appointee,
and so really the reach of this would just be
changing in a massive, massive way that people don't get.
So the question is like, how can you simplify that
(17:58):
in a way that's like it's a choice bet this
and this, and that's I agree with you. That's what
we've got to do.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
Yeah, he's a felon, Like, you know, he won't be
able to vote in this upcoming election for himself, but
he'll be able to run for office. Yeah, Like, there
are so many norms that we thought were laws that
aren't because a Donald Trump presidency should never be able
to exist. Now that you have thirty four felon accounts,
I don't give a fuck if you have the time
to go through you know, however many appeals until like
(18:25):
it is overturned. You are a felon and in this country,
you couldn't get a job at Walmart, but you can
run the country.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
What has happened for me over the last eight to
ninety years is really looking at America in a much
different light than I had ever looked at America before.
And this is somebody that went to school for political science,
that taught that work down the hill, you know, believes
in you know, civic engagement, believes in the possibility of
(18:57):
this country. And I look at this country now and
I look at all of what we thought were laws
which were actually political norms. I look at the hypocrisy,
the downright hypocrisy that we purport globally as well as
in this country, and I look around and I say,
and I've been saying this on every show today, that
over the next twenty thirty years, America is going to
(19:19):
experience an extraordinary brain drain. That people are going to
fully this country in the way that you have seen
other people fully countries or go to study in different places,
or have that that is going to be You're going
to see more Americans sprinkled around the globe in mass
(19:40):
than you'd ever seen before. Because I don't know how
we think that we are going to be importing talent
in this country anymore when every single law and policy
that used to make us somewhat the envy of the
world is now backwards. I was just talking about this.
Ear just announce Thailand recognizing same sex marriage, the first
(20:06):
country in the Asian Pacific to do so. Right, Mexico,
past abortion Catholic country does So you're watching places where
you would never see the type of progress. New Zealand
assault rifle ban done, one mass shooting over with as
(20:27):
other countries like recognize that America is not it, and
they are making the decisions about like their citizens and
the future that they want to see. America is barreling
in the opposite direction, and I think that people are
going to leave this country, and who is going to
be left, unfortunately, are going to be those that do
(20:52):
not have the economic ability the education to be able
to leave.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
It's so sad because, like you know, I'm writing this
book about the dismantling of America right now, and part
of it is, like I did this. I just did
a literature search in all these linguistic databases for American
print sources, and if you look, like in nineteen forty five,
one of the most commonly used words in American print
(21:17):
media was cooperate, and like I traced everywhere like it
was our ethos even for like really untractable race problems,
but also like how we came together to beat the
Nazis and what we were going to do to our
economy and the Marshall Plan and all this kind of
stuff was like, hey, we're all, you know, we're in
a certain kind of alliance, you know, not that it
(21:38):
was like obviously the same for a lot of people,
and it led to all these other problems, but cooperate
was like this thing. And then it's funny, one of
the graphs in my introduction, the word cooperate just falls
down and down and down and down for the next
like fifty years in a way, and that's the same
time that the word dismantle starts to like rise in
(22:01):
all these ways on the right and on the left.
And it's just so sad because what you're describing now
is kind of like how we built this current iteration
of America, right, which is we created alliances with allies,
and we became a home for people like Albert Einstein,
who we're fleeing oppression in other places, and we it
(22:22):
was that kind of that model was like kind of
what put us on the map. I mean, we were Hillbillies,
you know, one hundred years ago. And so in a way,
it's just sad that we're like we're like dismantling, like
what got us here in the first place. As you're saying,
is other people are doing that, and it's it's just
hard to It's like watching a slow motion train track.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
But it doesn't in all honesty, doesn't even feel like
that slow motion, right, Like I look at you know,
another report had come out recently that Paris, Right, the
city of Paris has been able to lower their pollution
by forty percent, right in the last couple of years.
How have they been to do that? Oh, They've added
more They've closed down roads to cars, They've taken fifty
(23:04):
thousand cars off of the street. They've created more pedestrian
streets and made the city more even more pedestrian friendly
than it was. Why. Because they see a threat. They've
looked at that threat and they've said, let's create a
solution for it. And I'm looking at that, and I'm
just like, how groundbreaking you mean that you just don't
(23:24):
like consistently talk about the threat at nauseum and then
don't do anything actually about it. You mean you can
actually take action and then see real results in a
small amount of time. No, can't possibly be?
Speaker 2 (23:38):
Yeah, No, And again, like I'm worked because I read
Project twenty twenty five full text the other day and
it's it is just like going back in time, you know,
I mean, like there is going back in time, and
so you know, I mean, in a way, Biden is old,
but he also maybe signals like holding on to something
(24:03):
that we once were. I just I don't know I
can This election is really important, as I say.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
That, Yeah, it is very important and the stakes are
very very clear.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
Yeah, I hope this is our time and then we say, man,
we pulled it together. I hope that's what happens.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
Yeah, we'll be speaking on what November sixth, seventh, eighth, ninth,
whenever this election is decided. Yeah, I personally don't think
it'll be decided until December, but you know that's just me.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Here's us more time to go on vacation.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
That is right. Thank you as always my friend Jonathan
for showing up for wok AFF and diving into conversation
with us.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
Next week, let's talk about like, let's pick a cheerful topic.
We always make these proclamations, but.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
I know we never stick with them because something that
always happens.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
Okay, next week we're doing cheerful topic.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
All right, Thank you friend, Take care everybody. That is
it for me today, Dear friends on wok f as always,
power to the people and to all the people. Power,
get woke and stay woke. As fun
Good morning, peeps, and welcome to ookf Daily with me
your girl Daniel Moody recording from the Home Bunker. I'm
recording this on Juneteenth, and you know you'll listen to
this tomorrow. And I just have some thoughts to get
off my chest about Juneteenth being a federal holiday. And
(00:33):
I posted a video yesterday saying that, like, I'm not
feeling Juneteenth as a federal holiday, and the reason being
is because I don't think that white people and non
black people, who there is no curriculum that was created,
have no understanding whatsoever, just get another day off. It
(00:53):
means absolutely nothing. And I'm tired of living inside of
a country that, instead of providing equity and justice for
black people who have been exploited, abused, murdered, lynched, raped, beaten, subjugated,
and oppressed for you know, damn near a millennial, that
(01:15):
instead of providing us with the justice that would look
like reparations in a number of ways, reparations doesn't look
like money, it looks like a whole lot of things. Instead,
just throw a fucking holiday our way. And this is
the same holiday that, oh yeah, the state of Florida
(01:35):
gets to take off while they go ahead and ban
quote unquote critical race theory and ban books and banned
curriculum and fire teachers. So it's like, what are we
really learning here? Right? Like what are we really learning? Nothing?
And that's the point, right, The point is to pacify, right,
Not to create critical thought, not to make amends for
(02:03):
past brutality. It is to pacify. And so I do
have deep feelings about this holiday and the way that
it was introduced after the murder of George Floyd in
thinking that somehow the leaders of this country are doing
(02:25):
something so that they can pat themselves on the fucking
back about it, doing what exactly? Because I'll tell you
that the last surviving witnesses to the Tulsa massacre that
happened over one hundred years ago were just denied a
hearing in court at the Oklahoma Supreme Court. So they
(02:48):
will die having had no reparations for state sensioned and
federally senioned mob violence that killed over three hundred people
and destroyed an entire fucking town. And those people got nothing,
and one hundred years later, we still do nothing for them.
(03:08):
So what is a holiday? It means nothing without any context,
without any curriculum, without any thoughtfulness whatsoever. So for me,
you know, I'm over it. I will not use this
day as a day to educate others. I will not
use it as a day to provide infographics on this, that,
(03:31):
and the fucking other thing. Like I want white people
and non black people in this country to be curious,
to be intellectually fucking curious, and be rigorous about learning
and unlearning so that we can forge a better future
because I don't see how we do it, because I
sure as fuck am tired of pulling people along. Coming
(03:54):
up next, my conversation with our friend, our in house doctor,
doctor Jonathan metzil Well. Jonathan and I talk about a
range of things today, mostly in the fact that I'm
just like you know, it's summer. I am in a
place where I'm just like I need a break. I
need a mental break, I need a physical break. I
need all of the breaks, as I'm certain that all
(04:15):
of you do as well. And so how to balance
out the need and the desire to slow down when
the news cycle and the world around us continues to
spin out of control. That conversation is coming up next, folks.
You know that whenever we have the opportunity to sit
down with our in house doctor, doctor Jonathan mepsl I
(04:36):
am always thrilled and Jonathan today what is on my mind?
What is on my mind is that it's summer. It's
nice outside, and like, I don't want to talk about
the end of the world every single day all day.
I want to, you know, just some days. I want
to pretend is that healthy? Is that? Is that Okay?
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Hey, I'm happy to pretend there's something I was to
ask you. But we can also pretend to.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
No ask me, ask me whatever, ask me whatever you'd like.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
Well, first, it's lovely out. I love summer. I love
all the puppies and the daffodils on all that stuff.
So no worries there. We can talk about summer trips
or vacations or fun stuff. We could talk about summer reads,
or we could talk about Donald Trump campaign targeting Black
Americans and how you feel about it.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Well, here are my quick summer plans. I don't often
leave New York in summer because I think that summer
in New York is beautiful and it's the best time
to be here. And so I will be doing a
lot of trips out east and just kicking it with
my fam on Long Island. As it pertains to Donald
Trump and his push for black voters, you know he
(05:51):
was in New York. He was in New York a
couple of weeks ago up in the Bronx at a
rally that they couldn't get anybody too, so I think
they paid people to attend. He was recently at a
black church where the attendees were not members of the
congregation of that church, nor could the preacher that leads
(06:12):
that church. When he went out to try and get
people to come in, they laughed in his face. But nonetheless,
I think it was in Michigan. They did a call
to the GOP out there and so a bunch of
white people showed up in blacks for Trump T shirts.
Irony is not lost on them at all. So what
do I think about Donald Trump's push. I think it's
(06:33):
like most things that Donald Trump pushes. I think it's fraudulent.
I think it's a lie, just as I think it
was Kelly and Conway that was on Fox News that
said that there were eight thousand people there at the church,
a church, by the way, that only holds several hundred.
But you know whatever, like if it's going to be
why not say there were eighty thousand people that were there,
Because if you're gonna lie, just like make it even bigger.
(06:56):
So do I think that it's a concerted effort. No?
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Do.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
I think that they will always be a facet of
the black community and the LATINX community that think that
their proximity to whiteness will save them and that they
hold up as the best thing, you know, for them. Yeah,
I do. And so those are my thoughts. What did
you think about the blacks for Trump white people?
Speaker 2 (07:18):
I actually see this. I mean I agree with everything
you said about like the content of it being farcical,
but I think it's a pretty serious concern actually for
a couple of reasons. I mean, one was that we
just saw more black and Latino voters vote for Trump
every time he ran, and especially in the last election.
I think there was a lot of surprise, particularly among
Latino voters, at the kind of support that Trump was getting.
(07:42):
But I think that, you know, for me, it's more
the fifty thousand foot issue that I think a lot
of people are missing. I mean, absolutely, the thing was farcical,
and you know, you expected like people to show up
like dressed like black people, So that.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
Really, I mean, I wouldn't put it past them, So.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
It was that ridiculous. But the two things that I
think are important to note. Number one was the New
York rally. It's almost like striking in the heart of
the opposition territory. So it didn't have to be a
success for them to call it a success. I don't
see Biden going to like the heart of red state,
(08:20):
rural NRA kind of country, which would be at corarel it.
So I think the very fact that it happened, it
wasn't so much to try to convince New York black
voters that they're going to love Trump. It was like
an op to show this guy is so brave that
he's actually taking it into the opposition's territory. And so
I have a feeling I don't know this for sure,
but I bet it did a lot of work beyond
(08:42):
like our core audience, the goal wasn't to convince anybody.
It was to show that Trump is like taking it
onto other people's turf and suggesting he has brought a appeal.
So that was concern number one for me about this.
But the bigger concern for me was actually the thing
in Detroit, because I actually watched it and it was
pretty sneaky evil what he was saying actually, because he
(09:04):
was saying, the Biden policies are bringing in all these
immigrants who are stealing your jobs basically, And so in
a way, again, I don't think that massive numbers of
black voters are going to vote for Trump, but in
a place like Detroit, where you're already like Michigan, you
already have arib Americans like really questioning who they're going
(09:26):
to vote for and things like that, you just to
be able to peel off enough black voters. And so
I thought that that message of like, immigrants are stealing
your jobs, like I've heard that before, because that's what
they told white voters in my research on dying of whiteness.
And it turns out like that is a message that
just really scares the Jesus out of people. And it
(09:47):
can work like, oh, yeah, this guy's going to save
my job by stopping competition. That's a fifty year old playlist,
but it's not in an effective one. And so I
guess that was my bigger concern again, beyond the farce
of it, was just the way they're crafting. This seems
far from random to me and something that I find
more concerning I think than other people do.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
I mean, I don't think that anything that they do
is random, right, I Like, nothing that they do is random.
Everything is part of the largest strategy. And when your
strategy is just to lie, like you don't really have
to prove a lot, right, Like, all you have to
do is go to the place and show up and
then lie about the crowds and lie about what it
is that you're telling them, and lie about what opportunities
(10:28):
that you're going to provide. And the thing that I
continue to ask people is like when you look at
the four years of Donald Trump's administration, like, how did
you feel? Right? Like, honestly, like, how did you feel?
How did you feel emotionally? How did you feel physically?
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Like?
Speaker 1 (10:42):
How did you feel? Because if I'm the Biden administration,
if I'm any Democrat that's running for office in twenty
twenty four, that's the question that I'm going to be
asking my voters. How did you feel from twenty seventeen
until January sixth, twenty twenty one? What was your ongoing
sentiment in your body, in your heart, in your mind right,
(11:02):
because I will tell you that for a lot of people,
it was fear, it was anxiety. It was lots of
people had lost their jobs, lots of people had lost
their lives because of that administration. We were just aghast
at Charlottesville, agast at George Floyd, agast at Donald Trump
(11:24):
turning the police on peaceful protesters. Like so when I
see instances like that, it isn't so much about how
do we come bad and like, oh, doesn't Donald Trump
look tough? Like yeah, I guess if you're a fucking idiot,
like I guess if you're looking at the imagery of
Donald Trump on horseback looking like Sylvester Stallone out of
(11:45):
nineteen eighties Rambow, and that is your like Christen yeah
or Putin, and that's your personification of like what masculinity
should look like. But you don't actually look at what
Donald Trump looked like in the courthouse in New York City,
then like, yeah, my whole thing is right now. As
we were speaking, the Biden administration, the Biden campaign excuse me,
(12:10):
put out a really great attack ad and it is
the first attack ad that has come out since the
thirty four felony convictions that calls Donald Trump a felon,
that actually says that here's what Donald Trump has done.
He's been convicted of thirty four felons, he's liable for
sexual assault, his university was fraudulent, his businesses are fraudulent,
(12:33):
and he's running a criminal enterprise. So your choice for
president is a criminal, a convicted criminal, a convicted felon,
or somebody that is fighting for democracy. Like, those are
your choices. And that to me was like a really
important smart ad and I need to see more of it,
and I need to see it everywhere.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
No, I think that's right because you know, people like
you and I wear news junkies. We know who are
going to vote for for the part for the president,
and then you know the other side, people are very
very mobilized on the other side. So it's kind of
like the people who are just now paying attention who
need like something simple, I think something like that that's like,
(13:13):
oh yeah, it's this or that, it's this or that,
And I think, you know, because always these elections, it's
kind of like the people who are just now starting
to pay attention or won't start paying attention, those are
the people who are going to decide it. But man,
the margins are unbelieve It's unbelievable how closely divided all
of this is right now. And so no, I think
you're right. Any kind of simple messaging that makes this
(13:36):
a polarizing choice between one thing or another and overturns
all this other stuff that's coming out, you know. So yeah,
so I think that's right. But again I did think again.
I watched that Detroit rally, the Detroit Church thing, and
I thought, this guy's not just like flying off the
handle like he did last time. Actually felt it felt
much more strategic than I was expecting.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
And that is one strategic speech that Trump gives in
a sea of one hundred that he has given where
I actually have am forced to listen to some of
these clips, I'm and I stopped them thirty seconds in,
and I'm just like, what am I listening to?
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Like?
Speaker 1 (14:14):
What am I supposed to be looking for here? Because
this is actually like nonsensical. It doesn't I think it's words,
but it's definitely not a sentence, and it definitely has
no context anywhere. And so I think that this election
is really simple. I actually think that this is one
of the most simple elections of our time. It is
(14:36):
you see what the Supreme Court is doing. Joe Biden
just said this again recently, and I'm like, you need
to say this everywhere and every time that there's a
microphone in your face. He's like, if Donald Trump is reelected,
he is going to have the ability to appoint two
more Supreme Court justices. Right, the Supreme Court is taking
(14:56):
away every single rite that was won in the twentieth
cent entry. I didn't appoint those justices. Donald Trump did
because we weren't paying attention to the courts the way
that Leonard Leo and Mitch McConnell and the Republicans have been.
So do you want a Trump Court for not only
(15:17):
the rest of your life, but the rest of your
children's life and the potentially the rest of their children's lives,
because that's what we're up against. Like, this is not
fucking rocket science here. I don't need to part and parcel. Well,
where is Donald Trump on immigration? How does he feel
about putin in Ukraine? Where will we be you know
(15:37):
in terms of workers' rights? It's like it's pretty clear.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Well, you know, it's funny because when I did the
dying of whiteness research. And I've said this as zillion
times in our conversations grassroots, everyday, working class, poor white Americans,
they all cared about the courts. Even when they were
being offered their own free healthcare under the Affordable Care Act,
they would tell me, no, we care about the courts.
(16:03):
I mean, it was such a top to bottom message
for Trump supporters and they weren't even Trump supporters yet.
This was like twenty fourteen. In fact, that's what the
book I'm writing now is about, is that when in
twenty fourteen, I was doing these focus groups, I didn't
even understand what people were saying, because I said, hey,
here's some free healthcare for you and you're sick, and
(16:23):
people would answer me, I care more than we overturn abortion.
And I'd be like, what does this have to do
with your healthcare? But they they kind of saw the
They saw like people on the ground who like literally
were trading away their health their health saw the picture.
And I just say, like, I just always think like, oh,
that's what it took to get Trump elected. For example,
(16:43):
in twenty sixteen, was people who rejected Obamacare, because if
Obamacare would have gone into practice, it would have meant
Centrists would have taken power and institutions and democracy and cooperation,
all these things, but they rejected it and dismantled it
in order to have their own power. And in a way,
that's the kind of focus it took to get those
(17:07):
Supreme Court justices, which is people like literally laid down
on the tracks themselves. And the question is, are democrats
like that?
Speaker 1 (17:16):
To me?
Speaker 2 (17:16):
That is the only message. You know, you and I've
been talking about judges for many days hit now, and
that's kind of what it took to get here. And
so the question is are Democrats up to the challenge
of that flip message, which I think is exactly right. Like,
you know, if you think I don't know, like I don't.
My driver's license is coming up for renewal. I don't
have to think about my politics. I just want to
(17:37):
go to the office and renew my driver's license. And
then I thought, Man, if Trump's president, I wonder if
I can get a renewed driver's license. You know, every
they're going to replace every office with some political appointee,
and so really the reach of this would just be
changing in a massive, massive way that people don't get.
So the question is like, how can you simplify that
(17:58):
in a way that's like it's a choice bet this
and this, and that's I agree with you. That's what
we've got to do.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
Yeah, he's a felon, Like, you know, he won't be
able to vote in this upcoming election for himself, but
he'll be able to run for office. Yeah, Like, there
are so many norms that we thought were laws that
aren't because a Donald Trump presidency should never be able
to exist. Now that you have thirty four felon accounts,
I don't give a fuck if you have the time
to go through you know, however many appeals until like
(18:25):
it is overturned. You are a felon and in this country,
you couldn't get a job at Walmart, but you can
run the country.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
What has happened for me over the last eight to
ninety years is really looking at America in a much
different light than I had ever looked at America before.
And this is somebody that went to school for political science,
that taught that work down the hill, you know, believes
in you know, civic engagement, believes in the possibility of
(18:57):
this country. And I look at this country now and
I look at all of what we thought were laws
which were actually political norms. I look at the hypocrisy,
the downright hypocrisy that we purport globally as well as
in this country, and I look around and I say,
and I've been saying this on every show today, that
over the next twenty thirty years, America is going to
(19:19):
experience an extraordinary brain drain. That people are going to
fully this country in the way that you have seen
other people fully countries or go to study in different places,
or have that that is going to be You're going
to see more Americans sprinkled around the globe in mass
(19:40):
than you'd ever seen before. Because I don't know how
we think that we are going to be importing talent
in this country anymore when every single law and policy
that used to make us somewhat the envy of the
world is now backwards. I was just talking about this.
Ear just announce Thailand recognizing same sex marriage, the first
(20:06):
country in the Asian Pacific to do so. Right, Mexico,
past abortion Catholic country does So you're watching places where
you would never see the type of progress. New Zealand
assault rifle ban done, one mass shooting over with as
(20:27):
other countries like recognize that America is not it, and
they are making the decisions about like their citizens and
the future that they want to see. America is barreling
in the opposite direction, and I think that people are
going to leave this country, and who is going to
be left, unfortunately, are going to be those that do
(20:52):
not have the economic ability the education to be able
to leave.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
It's so sad because, like you know, I'm writing this
book about the dismantling of America right now, and part
of it is, like I did this. I just did
a literature search in all these linguistic databases for American
print sources, and if you look, like in nineteen forty five,
one of the most commonly used words in American print
(21:17):
media was cooperate, and like I traced everywhere like it
was our ethos even for like really untractable race problems,
but also like how we came together to beat the
Nazis and what we were going to do to our
economy and the Marshall Plan and all this kind of
stuff was like, hey, we're all, you know, we're in
a certain kind of alliance, you know, not that it
(21:38):
was like obviously the same for a lot of people,
and it led to all these other problems, but cooperate
was like this thing. And then it's funny, one of
the graphs in my introduction, the word cooperate just falls
down and down and down and down for the next
like fifty years in a way, and that's the same
time that the word dismantle starts to like rise in
(22:01):
all these ways on the right and on the left.
And it's just so sad because what you're describing now
is kind of like how we built this current iteration
of America, right, which is we created alliances with allies,
and we became a home for people like Albert Einstein,
who we're fleeing oppression in other places, and we it
(22:22):
was that kind of that model was like kind of
what put us on the map. I mean, we were Hillbillies,
you know, one hundred years ago. And so in a way,
it's just sad that we're like we're like dismantling, like
what got us here in the first place. As you're saying,
is other people are doing that, and it's it's just
hard to It's like watching a slow motion train track.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
But it doesn't in all honesty, doesn't even feel like
that slow motion, right, Like I look at you know,
another report had come out recently that Paris, Right, the
city of Paris has been able to lower their pollution
by forty percent, right in the last couple of years.
How have they been to do that? Oh, They've added
more They've closed down roads to cars, They've taken fifty
(23:04):
thousand cars off of the street. They've created more pedestrian
streets and made the city more even more pedestrian friendly
than it was. Why. Because they see a threat. They've
looked at that threat and they've said, let's create a
solution for it. And I'm looking at that, and I'm
just like, how groundbreaking you mean that you just don't
(23:24):
like consistently talk about the threat at nauseum and then
don't do anything actually about it. You mean you can
actually take action and then see real results in a
small amount of time. No, can't possibly be?
Speaker 2 (23:38):
Yeah, No, And again, like I'm worked because I read
Project twenty twenty five full text the other day and
it's it is just like going back in time, you know,
I mean, like there is going back in time, and
so you know, I mean, in a way, Biden is old,
but he also maybe signals like holding on to something
(24:03):
that we once were. I just I don't know I
can This election is really important, as I say.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
That, Yeah, it is very important and the stakes are
very very clear.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
Yeah, I hope this is our time and then we say, man,
we pulled it together. I hope that's what happens.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
Yeah, we'll be speaking on what November sixth, seventh, eighth, ninth,
whenever this election is decided. Yeah, I personally don't think
it'll be decided until December, but you know that's just me.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Here's us more time to go on vacation.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
That is right. Thank you as always my friend Jonathan
for showing up for wok AFF and diving into conversation
with us.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
Next week, let's talk about like, let's pick a cheerful topic.
We always make these proclamations, but.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
I know we never stick with them because something that
always happens.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
Okay, next week we're doing cheerful topic.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
All right, Thank you friend, Take care everybody. That is
it for me today, Dear friends on wok f as always,
power to the people and to all the people. Power,
get woke and stay woke. As fun
Host
Danielle Moodie
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