July 11, 2024 • 24 mins
Jonathan Metzl joins Danielle to discuss the extremely turbulent state of the Democratic party right now and the continued urgency of this election.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:11):
Good morning, peepsend and welcome to ok F Daily with
Meet your Girl Daniel Moody, recording from the Home Bunker, Folks.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
In today's conversation, we sit.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Down with our friend, our in house doctor, doctor Jonathan Metzel,
and we talk about a range of things that are
happening right now as it pertains to our democracy and
the erosion that is taking place, the crumbling that is happening.
But as I turn on the microphone today, George Clooney
has decided that after putting together a fourteen million dollar
(00:43):
fundraiser for Joe Biden, that he thinks that the smartest
thing to do is to come out and to say
that Joe Biden should step aside, that he considers him
a friend, and he's a good president and was a
good vice president, but that it's time for him to
step aside. And what I've wanted to elevate in this
Joe Biden in step aside conversation is one the massagin
(01:03):
award that is taking place with the absolute just dismissal
of Kamala Harris, who is the Vice President of the
United States, and the fact that it is overwhelmingly rich,
white powerful men that are coming out calling for Biden
to resign to be replaced with a white man, as
(01:26):
if we don't already have a succession plan in place
in this country if something happens to the President of
the United States. What I recognize about this is that
these people who are coming out, overwhelmingly white men, who
are coming out and calling for Biden to step aside,
have nothing at risk. Their lives are not going to
(01:49):
be the ones that are upended because of a Trump regime.
They are not going to have to live under threat.
They are going to have the finances and the skin
tone to be able to fully and George Clin can
raise his kids on Lake fucking Como and the other
political punditry, white wealthy male class, they'll be fine, and
(02:09):
they'll probably just get lock and step with Donald Trump
in order to save their own asses. But it is
the rest of us, who are part of marginalized communities
who are the ones that are going to be in danger.
And so I'm not willing to fucking gamble with changing
(02:32):
a horse four months into the election. What I am
willing to do is something that John Stewart brought up
on The Daily Show, which is we need to bring
in everybody, the governors, you know, the House representatives, the senators,
the medio personalities and what have you, and get on
the same page about creating a multiracial, multi generational coalition
(02:57):
in order to fight back against fashion and Donald fucking
Trump and MAGA and Project twenty twenty five. That's what
our time should be used for, is to do what
it is that people in France did who came from
different ideological makeup, but they recognize the threat at hand
that Marie Le Penn and our far right party we're
(03:20):
going to have on France, and they did what needed
to be done, and then they can figure out how
to fucking govern. But we need to focus on how
to fucking win. And that's the problem that Democrats find
themselves in right now, is that they would rather spin
their wheels and have a bunch of wealthy, white powerful
men talk about overlooking the Vice President of the United
(03:42):
States and bolstering her up and go ahead and look
for another white man.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Folks.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
We are not going to win that way, and I
don't understand why people can't get it through their heads.
Coming up next, my conversation with our friend, our in
house doctor, doctor Jonathan Metzel. Folks, you know that whenever
we have the opportunity to chat with our in house doctor,
doctor Jonathan Metzil, we are always thrilled and pleased. And Jonathan,
(04:12):
you are getting ready to take a big trip. You
are headed to Israel in a few days.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
Well, actually I'm leaving right before we speak today. I'm
leaving this afternoon.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
Oh you're leaving this afternoon.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Oh my god.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
Okay, if our faithful viewers could see my apartment right now,
they would send they would send help. But now I'm
going to I'm going to England. First. I'm giving a
talk if anybody's out there in London on Sunday, I'm
speaking at the Sigmund Freud Museum in London on Sunday
about guns in America and elections, which is a pretty
(04:53):
interesting topic in the UK right now. And then I've
been doing work with Physicians for Human Rights Israel Power
STEGN for fifteen years and we've actually talked about it
on here and I don't know, this was a year
where I really have It's an intense time, right but
they asked me to come back and this, you know,
I want to be somebody who comes back when things
(05:15):
are hard, not just when you know when they're easy.
And so it's an incredible organization and a lot of
my Israeli colleagues are processing in the streets against everything
that's happening for a very very long time. And so
I'm going to go there for a week. I said,
what do you want me to talk about? And these
are Israeli doctors basically, and Palestinian doctors and Bedouin doctors,
(05:38):
and they said, we want to learn more about structural racism.
So I'm going to Israel to lecture about structural racism,
which is something they feel like they really want to
know more about. And so it's just funny that, like
when you were not in a place like you see
it's one thing or the other thing, which it is
in a lot of ways, but also people are there
living their lives and still trying to do work that
is equitable and just across around the world. Then, you know,
(06:01):
so I'm interested to see what I find. And I
think the other interesting thing about this trip is that
I'm going to interview a lot of people because Israel
is not that different from the United States. I mean,
obviously all the other stuff aside, but in terms of
just the electorate, you know, they're probably forty five percent
of people are roughly liberal and fifty percent or conservative,
(06:22):
many more obviously very very religious Orthodox Jewish people there
a particular constituency. But I'm going to interview people about
what they were thinking in the lead up to when
Nittan Yaho got elected, because it just seems to be
like there were a lot of similar forces at play
as there are here. But if I can, I hope
to write a piece just about put everything aside if
(06:44):
you can, which is obviously hard for a lot of people,
but just the question of like an electorate that feels
like this election is just another election, or our candidate
that Candaidate on the left was somebody nobody's really all
excited about, but the implications the day after one really
changed life and death for people forever in a way.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
You know, I think it's one a couple of things
when you talk to them about structural racism, And obviously
structural racism looks different depending on the country that you're in,
depending on what ethnic racial groups, cultures you know you're discussing,
and so what does the framing around that look like
(07:29):
given your lens in the United States, but also how
to I guess share that perspective with understanding the differences
that persist in Israel and Palestine are really about culture
and religion versus in the United States they are about
you know, race.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
So I've been learning and lecturing in the Middle East
about this for I think almost fifteen or twenty years now.
I go back every two years, and and that was
a learning experience for me. I mean, when we did
a lot of outreach in the West Bank, but also
in a lot of Druze villages in parts of Israel
and parts of Israel, so there are a lot of
(08:12):
I mean that's actually wor Alb's in some Bedouin areas
also on next Tuesday, And so the race categories are
just totally different in a way in a lot of
ways you know people here, which kind of drives you crazy.
You spent a lot of time in the Middle East.
Everybody thinks it's like white Europeans and and they're all
(08:32):
came in and that kind of thing. But as people
I think now realize, like fifty five percent of israelis
probably more with you know, intermixing and stuff come from.
Yeahmen in Ethiopia and Iran and Egypt. So just Jewish Israelis,
a lot of them would not identify as white because
ethnically they're actually closer to I mean their grandparents escaped
(08:59):
Egypt or or you know, Syria had a huge Jewish community.
So there's a lot of just the categories here of
like dying of whiteness versus black politics. And it doesn't
mean anything there. I mean it does because they are
really interested in how to fix it. Now that being said,
a lot of work that I've done there two things.
One is they want to know about equity and social
(09:21):
justice work because there were terrible things that were done
to for example, Yemeni women who came over, who their
babies were taken, and you know, all these kind of
things happening like in the forties and fifties. I mean, actually,
I encourage people that they're interested in this at all
to go on the Physicians for Human Rights Israel site.
It's they've been anti occupation forever and you know a
(09:43):
lot of politics that are really inflected by the US.
But this is a long way of saying, at least
there I'm going to be talking about structural competency, because
I think that's the framework that adapts, which is like,
how can we build equity frameworks for health care delivery
and things like that, which is kind of what we
were doing when we were doing a lot of Israeli
Palestinian collaboration. That was the framework we were using. Also,
(10:05):
we were in the West Bank a batch. Obviously that's
going to be a lot more difficult now. But I'm
curious to see what people what people say.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
I've said this before, I think to you, but I
definitely have wrote about it. When I went to Israel
and Paleston in twenty fifteen that as like a black
queer woman traveling there, I was it was almost startling
to me, like because I couldn't see the differences between
people on their face, like like like it was just
(10:37):
so shocking. I'm just like, how do you know who
to hate? Because it like a like and I say
that like jokingly, you know, but like honestly, because obviously
in America things are literally very black and white, right,
Like you know, I am a black person, and so
you know the history right that has me in this space.
(10:58):
And so when I was looking at Israelis and I'm
looking at Palestinians, and I'm like, you all look alike
like cousins, you know, like family cousins.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
Like I don't understand it.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
And so just like again with this idea of teaching
about structural racism, their race, like their discrimination is based
in religion, right, it's based in religion, and who has
a right to the land of their people, et cetera.
And so to me, it was just like it was
(11:31):
very wild to be and you know, to be in
a place. But I you know, similarly around the world
in places where there are unrest because of different tribal groups,
different religious groups and what have you, You're just like, how
how do you even know to like to hate this person?
It just doesn't make sense.
Speaker 3 (11:49):
And you know, the other interesting thing is that there
are over a million Israeli Palestinians and so who are
Palestinian Israeli citizens. And there are entire cities like in
the North where they're like all the government everything is
like totally mixed or has been like their model cities
where all the shit hasn't played out. No, I mean,
(12:10):
the thing is, well, first of all, these crisis moments
are incredibly good at getting us to hate each other.
So there's just a whole tribalizing. I mean it's also
based in real things for sure, but it's also for me.
You elect a government like Trump, or you elect a
government like Nintaanyahu, elect governments who like all these governments,
(12:31):
they were like, you're in this tribe, and if you
go there the tribe, you're you're it's treason and we're
going to make you pay a price and all these
kind of things. And so I think that's part of it.
Now in Israel, I don't want to get it too
much of a free pass. I mean in the forties,
like the Europeans who came fleeing Germany felt like they
were like high culture, doing the Viennese waltz and speaking
High German and stuff like that, and they then look
(12:52):
down in their nose that, you know, people who are
coming from Yemen who were not educated and all these
kind of things. So there are racial divides, is kind
of the so called Ashkenazi's Farti divide and kind of
Spanish Jews versus Eupeene juice. But the thing is that
was kind of in the fifties and as generations all
grew up together, largely, I mean, it's a socioeconomic divide
(13:15):
for in some places, but not you know, but it
breaks down every generation because people are all hooking up
and so so I think that's I think that's part
of it. But then again there are these historical narratives,
obviously racial narratives, and then there's just like a lot
of death and killing in terms of the governments and
(13:37):
all these kind of things. I don't know, But for me,
I don't know, it's just I just for every place, like,
why are we electing the worst people?
Speaker 1 (13:45):
Well, I want to ask you this, you know, as
you get ready to leave and to go overseas today,
we just saw the results as you mentioned in the UK,
we saw the results in France, where the people in
both of those countries have beat back, have voted back
against far right authoritarianism. And so looking at that, as
(14:09):
you pay attention to geopolitical situations and elections and what
have you, what have you gleaned from those two elections.
As the people are still in Israel calling for the
resignation of Netanyahu, which will not happen, or calling for
a new election, I don't know if that will happen.
As we get closer and closer to our own election here.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
Well, I think three main things. First, I'm getting two
talks in the UK, and then I'm giving three kind
of talks. But a lot of community have reached stuff
in like they are categories of people in Israel who
don't fit into a lot of this. So I'm doing
some stuff as I was saying with Drews and bedouin
(14:51):
communities also in Israel. You know, I'm going to ask
everybody where I go. I'm going to have a slide
on my talk, what message do you have for the
United States? What have you learned from your experience? They
want to tell people in the United States who are
facing our own big election. I'm really curious what people
say and like, what have you learned?
Speaker 2 (15:08):
That very interesting?
Speaker 3 (15:09):
So I'm going to if I can do some research,
I'm just going to say, email me if you want to.
I'm going to be asking that question a lot. What
what have you learned my sets, especially from France, because
you know, the pen is really terrifying, but the pen
is like Project twenty twenty five. People like these are
people who have been in the opposition forever, but they've
(15:31):
also always been whackos, and now the idea is that
they're going to take over and control everybody's life, and
the power goes their head. Hint. I think the thing
with France is that people got together and they fought
it back by making compromise. Like there are a lot
of people in France who were running for political office
who then made all these deals and said, look, I
know I'm more senior than you, but I just think
the election itself is so important. It's not about me,
(15:53):
It's about the election. Hint, hint. And so the party
really got unified and they made it really transparent and
they were like, we're all on the same team, and
here's what we're getting behind. And it's not the older people,
because younger people have different sensibility, sense of the economy,
like in a way being linked to the elites. Who
poor Joe Biden. They're coming down on him so hard now,
(16:14):
but the elites, you know. So I just think they
made a lot of really important strategic choices.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Yes, they made a coalition a force to go against
the far right. Like I mean to me, that is
how politics is supposed to work, where one the people
recognize the existential threat and then those leaders that are
in power say this is how we're going to rally,
and you know, instead of being fractured, recognize that if
(16:43):
La Penn were to get in, this would undo who
France like. Who France is and has been for decades
upon decades of democracy.
Speaker 3 (16:52):
And roughly the same in UK is different, but a
kind of process happened that ultimately. But do you know, man,
I mean, I've hinted about this on this show for
two years, but this stuff with Biden just really infuriates me.
I mean, I want us to do whatever's going to work.
And I realize that I think you're still thinking he
should stay in, right because he has all the money
(17:13):
and stuff like that.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
No, it's not even like I don't think that he
should stay in because he has the money. I say
that he stays in because we have four months. And
I don't think that people understand the amount of work
and like seating that needs to happen in order to
interer it even like and first of all, the whole
conversation that is happening about floating other names outside of
(17:35):
the Vice President of the United States is already like
missage in Noir and like bullshit. So I won't entertain
any of that. But on its face, the whole conversation
is based in racism and sexism. She's the vice president
of the United States. If something were to happen to
Joe Biden, guess who becomes president. And so I think
that for me, he stays in because we have four
(17:58):
fucking months you wanted Joe Biden removed. That conversation should
have happened in twenty twenty, not four months before the
fucking election. So I don't care if he is weekend
at Bernie's. I don't care if he's in a fucking
hospice bed. Like people need to understand and rally around
that because we don't have the time for there to
be a quote unquote new person coming in.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
It's it's sad because like our system is so inept,
like oh yeah, I mean like in the Europe, you know,
the whole election is seven weeks start to finish out,
and so you'd think ideally, but I just I know
so many people who like, if Biden's a candidate, they're
not going to vote, you know, I just I so
many people, and it's just so I'm really torn because
(18:43):
wood rallying around Kamala hairs and then there's so many
good people you could pair with her that I think
we just get people excited again. And I'm just personally
mad because I feel lied to by a lot of
this Biden stuff. It feels a little bit cover up
fish to me, which people have been telling me for
you years, like, oh, they're covering up all this medical stuff.
And I was like, oh, I don't give crap, Like
(19:04):
I don't know, but it does seem like something about
that debate, man, it just feels like, yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
I mean, look, the debate was terrible. It should have
never happened. If his team was at all concerned with
what his performance was going to be, they should have
pulled it. They should have pulled it and said that
he had COVID and like, unlike Donald Trump, we're not
going to put other people at risk, and that's what
you do. And that would have been its own narrative
(19:33):
and media cycle.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
But the fact that there has.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
Been, to me a coordinated effort by all media outlets
to call for the resignation of Joe Biden. And yet
when Donald Trump received his guilty verdict, there was no
calling for him to drop out of the race. There
was no calling for like the fact that a convicted
criminal should not be the president of the United States,
and how dangerous this is and what a precedent it's setting.
(19:58):
There wasn't like an I for one am sick of it.
And so also Donald Trump doesn't exhibit that he is
quote unquote all there either, right, but again there is
still no there's no coordination around trying to protect our democracy,
but there is absolute coordination on trying to take down
Joe Biden.
Speaker 3 (20:18):
Well, I mean, for me, I've thought a lot about this.
I agree with everything you just said a lot, but
I would also say I don't care about whether or
not Trump is competent. I think Trump is incompetent, but
it doesn't matter to me really, because for me, the
question isn't comparent Biden and Trump. It's what it's the
narratives Democrats will tell themselves to get the coalition together,
(20:40):
so Trump could be job of the Hut for all
I care. Media is in a lot of ways already,
but this story I do feel about Biden's competency and
whether he'll take a meeting now after six pm and
all these kind of things like it that's important for
Democrats independent of the coverage that Trump gets. I just
I think there's something about like what narrative do we
have to tell ourselves as Democrats to get back to
(21:04):
building because honestly, Trump voters aren't going to vote for
our side, but our coalition. If we hold together, you know,
we win. But I don't know. I just it's just
there's so many missteps here. It's just it's I mean,
obviously we're going to mobilize around whoever the candidate is.
I personally think, given everything, that's if they can pull
(21:25):
it off. I personally think a Harris somebody ticket would
be more exciting for people in a four month period
if they could mobilize the same networks and resources. I
don't know if that's possible. And I do think some
of these questions about could you do the job? I
think are valid questions right now. Now. It's infuriating that
these have been held from us for a long time
and everything matters about who wins the election. But I
(21:49):
don't know enough about this. I'd be curious to note
could we pull off like a Kamala Harris, And I
mean I love Andy Basheer as you know ticket or
something like that. You know, So I just want to
do where it takes to win.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
Everyone needs to be focused on. What I want to
see is the same loyalty and circling of the wagons
that Republicans can do for a convicted felon, for us
to do for Joe Biden for the next four months.
We need to get to inauguration day. We need to
get we need to win the election and get to
inauguration day. I don't care about what happens after that,
and I don't understand why that can't just happen like that.
(22:29):
The focus can't be on the existential threat that we're
in and just move in that direction for the next
four months. What happens after that, I don't care.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
It's just really it's like the viewership of NMSNBC versus
the viewership of Fox News. Can you convince enough people
who don't already agree with what you just said, which
is me and you and all our friends who saw
Biden at that debate. Can you convince enough people who
are like swings it's really going to better swing state
undecided voters. That's really, you know, whatever a narrative convinces them,
(23:03):
I will go with that. The meetings are all happening
today as actually as we are talking about this right now,
so I'm curious to see. So the question will be
like how much damage did that? It wasn't just the debate.
It was the debate that kind of opened a flood
of frustration that people have been feeling gas lit. I think,
how much damage did that do to swing state voters?
(23:24):
And that'll be the poll and that I think that'll
be what happens. But I don't know. I just I
don't need Jill Biden yelling at me right now.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
Fair point.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
Well we will leave it there today, my friend. I
wish you safe, safe travels, keep in touch with us
while you are away, because I'm interested to know what
insight folks have for the United States and what their
thoughts are around their own issues of structural racism.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
Yeah, I mean, I've here. I actual, to be honest,
it was like take your breath away moment. I'm like,
do you want me to come talk about peace negotiations
or war something? And like the actually we want to
learn how we can be more racially equitdople. I don't know,
there was something about it. This was like the last
answer I thought. I'm like, oh, I'll come, you know,
(24:11):
I'll come and we'll see and again this group is
mixed in ways that are just it's you know, you
can't get a sense of what it's like from here
in that regard. You know, they're so anyway excited to
go and come back and talk to everybody about amazing.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
That is it for me today, dear friends on Woke
a f as always power to the people and to
all the people. Power, get woke and stay woke as fuck.
Good morning, peepsend and welcome to ok F Daily with
Meet your Girl Daniel Moody, recording from the Home Bunker, Folks.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
In today's conversation, we sit.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Down with our friend, our in house doctor, doctor Jonathan Metzel,
and we talk about a range of things that are
happening right now as it pertains to our democracy and
the erosion that is taking place, the crumbling that is happening.
But as I turn on the microphone today, George Clooney
has decided that after putting together a fourteen million dollar
(00:43):
fundraiser for Joe Biden, that he thinks that the smartest
thing to do is to come out and to say
that Joe Biden should step aside, that he considers him
a friend, and he's a good president and was a
good vice president, but that it's time for him to
step aside. And what I've wanted to elevate in this
Joe Biden in step aside conversation is one the massagin
(01:03):
award that is taking place with the absolute just dismissal
of Kamala Harris, who is the Vice President of the
United States, and the fact that it is overwhelmingly rich,
white powerful men that are coming out calling for Biden
to resign to be replaced with a white man, as
(01:26):
if we don't already have a succession plan in place
in this country if something happens to the President of
the United States. What I recognize about this is that
these people who are coming out, overwhelmingly white men, who
are coming out and calling for Biden to step aside,
have nothing at risk. Their lives are not going to
(01:49):
be the ones that are upended because of a Trump regime.
They are not going to have to live under threat.
They are going to have the finances and the skin
tone to be able to fully and George Clin can
raise his kids on Lake fucking Como and the other
political punditry, white wealthy male class, they'll be fine, and
(02:09):
they'll probably just get lock and step with Donald Trump
in order to save their own asses. But it is
the rest of us, who are part of marginalized communities
who are the ones that are going to be in danger.
And so I'm not willing to fucking gamble with changing
(02:32):
a horse four months into the election. What I am
willing to do is something that John Stewart brought up
on The Daily Show, which is we need to bring
in everybody, the governors, you know, the House representatives, the senators,
the medio personalities and what have you, and get on
the same page about creating a multiracial, multi generational coalition
(02:57):
in order to fight back against fashion and Donald fucking
Trump and MAGA and Project twenty twenty five. That's what
our time should be used for, is to do what
it is that people in France did who came from
different ideological makeup, but they recognize the threat at hand
that Marie Le Penn and our far right party we're
(03:20):
going to have on France, and they did what needed
to be done, and then they can figure out how
to fucking govern. But we need to focus on how
to fucking win. And that's the problem that Democrats find
themselves in right now, is that they would rather spin
their wheels and have a bunch of wealthy, white powerful
men talk about overlooking the Vice President of the United
(03:42):
States and bolstering her up and go ahead and look
for another white man.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Folks.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
We are not going to win that way, and I
don't understand why people can't get it through their heads.
Coming up next, my conversation with our friend, our in
house doctor, doctor Jonathan Metzel. Folks, you know that whenever
we have the opportunity to chat with our in house doctor,
doctor Jonathan Metzil, we are always thrilled and pleased. And Jonathan,
(04:12):
you are getting ready to take a big trip. You
are headed to Israel in a few days.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
Well, actually I'm leaving right before we speak today. I'm
leaving this afternoon.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
Oh you're leaving this afternoon.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Oh my god.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
Okay, if our faithful viewers could see my apartment right now,
they would send they would send help. But now I'm
going to I'm going to England. First. I'm giving a
talk if anybody's out there in London on Sunday, I'm
speaking at the Sigmund Freud Museum in London on Sunday
about guns in America and elections, which is a pretty
(04:53):
interesting topic in the UK right now. And then I've
been doing work with Physicians for Human Rights Israel Power
STEGN for fifteen years and we've actually talked about it
on here and I don't know, this was a year
where I really have It's an intense time, right but
they asked me to come back and this, you know,
I want to be somebody who comes back when things
(05:15):
are hard, not just when you know when they're easy.
And so it's an incredible organization and a lot of
my Israeli colleagues are processing in the streets against everything
that's happening for a very very long time. And so
I'm going to go there for a week. I said,
what do you want me to talk about? And these
are Israeli doctors basically, and Palestinian doctors and Bedouin doctors,
(05:38):
and they said, we want to learn more about structural racism.
So I'm going to Israel to lecture about structural racism,
which is something they feel like they really want to
know more about. And so it's just funny that, like
when you were not in a place like you see
it's one thing or the other thing, which it is
in a lot of ways, but also people are there
living their lives and still trying to do work that
is equitable and just across around the world. Then, you know,
(06:01):
so I'm interested to see what I find. And I
think the other interesting thing about this trip is that
I'm going to interview a lot of people because Israel
is not that different from the United States. I mean,
obviously all the other stuff aside, but in terms of
just the electorate, you know, they're probably forty five percent
of people are roughly liberal and fifty percent or conservative,
(06:22):
many more obviously very very religious Orthodox Jewish people there
a particular constituency. But I'm going to interview people about
what they were thinking in the lead up to when
Nittan Yaho got elected, because it just seems to be
like there were a lot of similar forces at play
as there are here. But if I can, I hope
to write a piece just about put everything aside if
(06:44):
you can, which is obviously hard for a lot of people,
but just the question of like an electorate that feels
like this election is just another election, or our candidate
that Candaidate on the left was somebody nobody's really all
excited about, but the implications the day after one really
changed life and death for people forever in a way.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
You know, I think it's one a couple of things
when you talk to them about structural racism, And obviously
structural racism looks different depending on the country that you're in,
depending on what ethnic racial groups, cultures you know you're discussing,
and so what does the framing around that look like
(07:29):
given your lens in the United States, but also how
to I guess share that perspective with understanding the differences
that persist in Israel and Palestine are really about culture
and religion versus in the United States they are about
you know, race.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
So I've been learning and lecturing in the Middle East
about this for I think almost fifteen or twenty years now.
I go back every two years, and and that was
a learning experience for me. I mean, when we did
a lot of outreach in the West Bank, but also
in a lot of Druze villages in parts of Israel
and parts of Israel, so there are a lot of
(08:12):
I mean that's actually wor Alb's in some Bedouin areas
also on next Tuesday, And so the race categories are
just totally different in a way in a lot of
ways you know people here, which kind of drives you crazy.
You spent a lot of time in the Middle East.
Everybody thinks it's like white Europeans and and they're all
(08:32):
came in and that kind of thing. But as people
I think now realize, like fifty five percent of israelis
probably more with you know, intermixing and stuff come from.
Yeahmen in Ethiopia and Iran and Egypt. So just Jewish Israelis,
a lot of them would not identify as white because
ethnically they're actually closer to I mean their grandparents escaped
(08:59):
Egypt or or you know, Syria had a huge Jewish community.
So there's a lot of just the categories here of
like dying of whiteness versus black politics. And it doesn't
mean anything there. I mean it does because they are
really interested in how to fix it. Now that being said,
a lot of work that I've done there two things.
One is they want to know about equity and social
(09:21):
justice work because there were terrible things that were done
to for example, Yemeni women who came over, who their
babies were taken, and you know, all these kind of
things happening like in the forties and fifties. I mean, actually,
I encourage people that they're interested in this at all
to go on the Physicians for Human Rights Israel site.
It's they've been anti occupation forever and you know a
(09:43):
lot of politics that are really inflected by the US.
But this is a long way of saying, at least
there I'm going to be talking about structural competency, because
I think that's the framework that adapts, which is like,
how can we build equity frameworks for health care delivery
and things like that, which is kind of what we
were doing when we were doing a lot of Israeli
Palestinian collaboration. That was the framework we were using. Also,
(10:05):
we were in the West Bank a batch. Obviously that's
going to be a lot more difficult now. But I'm
curious to see what people what people say.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
I've said this before, I think to you, but I
definitely have wrote about it. When I went to Israel
and Paleston in twenty fifteen that as like a black
queer woman traveling there, I was it was almost startling
to me, like because I couldn't see the differences between
people on their face, like like like it was just
(10:37):
so shocking. I'm just like, how do you know who
to hate? Because it like a like and I say
that like jokingly, you know, but like honestly, because obviously
in America things are literally very black and white, right,
Like you know, I am a black person, and so
you know the history right that has me in this space.
(10:58):
And so when I was looking at Israelis and I'm
looking at Palestinians, and I'm like, you all look alike
like cousins, you know, like family cousins.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
Like I don't understand it.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
And so just like again with this idea of teaching
about structural racism, their race, like their discrimination is based
in religion, right, it's based in religion, and who has
a right to the land of their people, et cetera.
And so to me, it was just like it was
(11:31):
very wild to be and you know, to be in
a place. But I you know, similarly around the world
in places where there are unrest because of different tribal groups,
different religious groups and what have you, You're just like, how
how do you even know to like to hate this person?
It just doesn't make sense.
Speaker 3 (11:49):
And you know, the other interesting thing is that there
are over a million Israeli Palestinians and so who are
Palestinian Israeli citizens. And there are entire cities like in
the North where they're like all the government everything is
like totally mixed or has been like their model cities
where all the shit hasn't played out. No, I mean,
(12:10):
the thing is, well, first of all, these crisis moments
are incredibly good at getting us to hate each other.
So there's just a whole tribalizing. I mean it's also
based in real things for sure, but it's also for me.
You elect a government like Trump, or you elect a
government like Nintaanyahu, elect governments who like all these governments,
(12:31):
they were like, you're in this tribe, and if you
go there the tribe, you're you're it's treason and we're
going to make you pay a price and all these
kind of things. And so I think that's part of it.
Now in Israel, I don't want to get it too
much of a free pass. I mean in the forties,
like the Europeans who came fleeing Germany felt like they
were like high culture, doing the Viennese waltz and speaking
High German and stuff like that, and they then look
(12:52):
down in their nose that, you know, people who are
coming from Yemen who were not educated and all these
kind of things. So there are racial divides, is kind
of the so called Ashkenazi's Farti divide and kind of
Spanish Jews versus Eupeene juice. But the thing is that
was kind of in the fifties and as generations all
grew up together, largely, I mean, it's a socioeconomic divide
(13:15):
for in some places, but not you know, but it
breaks down every generation because people are all hooking up
and so so I think that's I think that's part
of it. But then again there are these historical narratives,
obviously racial narratives, and then there's just like a lot
of death and killing in terms of the governments and
(13:37):
all these kind of things. I don't know, But for me,
I don't know, it's just I just for every place, like,
why are we electing the worst people?
Speaker 1 (13:45):
Well, I want to ask you this, you know, as
you get ready to leave and to go overseas today,
we just saw the results as you mentioned in the UK,
we saw the results in France, where the people in
both of those countries have beat back, have voted back
against far right authoritarianism. And so looking at that, as
(14:09):
you pay attention to geopolitical situations and elections and what
have you, what have you gleaned from those two elections.
As the people are still in Israel calling for the
resignation of Netanyahu, which will not happen, or calling for
a new election, I don't know if that will happen.
As we get closer and closer to our own election here.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
Well, I think three main things. First, I'm getting two
talks in the UK, and then I'm giving three kind
of talks. But a lot of community have reached stuff
in like they are categories of people in Israel who
don't fit into a lot of this. So I'm doing
some stuff as I was saying with Drews and bedouin
(14:51):
communities also in Israel. You know, I'm going to ask
everybody where I go. I'm going to have a slide
on my talk, what message do you have for the
United States? What have you learned from your experience? They
want to tell people in the United States who are
facing our own big election. I'm really curious what people
say and like, what have you learned?
Speaker 2 (15:08):
That very interesting?
Speaker 3 (15:09):
So I'm going to if I can do some research,
I'm just going to say, email me if you want to.
I'm going to be asking that question a lot. What
what have you learned my sets, especially from France, because
you know, the pen is really terrifying, but the pen
is like Project twenty twenty five. People like these are
people who have been in the opposition forever, but they've
(15:31):
also always been whackos, and now the idea is that
they're going to take over and control everybody's life, and
the power goes their head. Hint. I think the thing
with France is that people got together and they fought
it back by making compromise. Like there are a lot
of people in France who were running for political office
who then made all these deals and said, look, I
know I'm more senior than you, but I just think
the election itself is so important. It's not about me,
(15:53):
It's about the election. Hint, hint. And so the party
really got unified and they made it really transparent and
they were like, we're all on the same team, and
here's what we're getting behind. And it's not the older people,
because younger people have different sensibility, sense of the economy,
like in a way being linked to the elites. Who
poor Joe Biden. They're coming down on him so hard now,
(16:14):
but the elites, you know. So I just think they
made a lot of really important strategic choices.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Yes, they made a coalition a force to go against
the far right. Like I mean to me, that is
how politics is supposed to work, where one the people
recognize the existential threat and then those leaders that are
in power say this is how we're going to rally,
and you know, instead of being fractured, recognize that if
(16:43):
La Penn were to get in, this would undo who
France like. Who France is and has been for decades
upon decades of democracy.
Speaker 3 (16:52):
And roughly the same in UK is different, but a
kind of process happened that ultimately. But do you know, man,
I mean, I've hinted about this on this show for
two years, but this stuff with Biden just really infuriates me.
I mean, I want us to do whatever's going to work.
And I realize that I think you're still thinking he
should stay in, right because he has all the money
(17:13):
and stuff like that.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
No, it's not even like I don't think that he
should stay in because he has the money. I say
that he stays in because we have four months. And
I don't think that people understand the amount of work
and like seating that needs to happen in order to
interer it even like and first of all, the whole
conversation that is happening about floating other names outside of
(17:35):
the Vice President of the United States is already like
missage in Noir and like bullshit. So I won't entertain
any of that. But on its face, the whole conversation
is based in racism and sexism. She's the vice president
of the United States. If something were to happen to
Joe Biden, guess who becomes president. And so I think
that for me, he stays in because we have four
(17:58):
fucking months you wanted Joe Biden removed. That conversation should
have happened in twenty twenty, not four months before the
fucking election. So I don't care if he is weekend
at Bernie's. I don't care if he's in a fucking
hospice bed. Like people need to understand and rally around
that because we don't have the time for there to
be a quote unquote new person coming in.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
It's it's sad because like our system is so inept,
like oh yeah, I mean like in the Europe, you know,
the whole election is seven weeks start to finish out,
and so you'd think ideally, but I just I know
so many people who like, if Biden's a candidate, they're
not going to vote, you know, I just I so
many people, and it's just so I'm really torn because
(18:43):
wood rallying around Kamala hairs and then there's so many
good people you could pair with her that I think
we just get people excited again. And I'm just personally
mad because I feel lied to by a lot of
this Biden stuff. It feels a little bit cover up
fish to me, which people have been telling me for
you years, like, oh, they're covering up all this medical stuff.
And I was like, oh, I don't give crap, Like
(19:04):
I don't know, but it does seem like something about
that debate, man, it just feels like, yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
I mean, look, the debate was terrible. It should have
never happened. If his team was at all concerned with
what his performance was going to be, they should have
pulled it. They should have pulled it and said that
he had COVID and like, unlike Donald Trump, we're not
going to put other people at risk, and that's what
you do. And that would have been its own narrative
(19:33):
and media cycle.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
But the fact that there has.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
Been, to me a coordinated effort by all media outlets
to call for the resignation of Joe Biden. And yet
when Donald Trump received his guilty verdict, there was no
calling for him to drop out of the race. There
was no calling for like the fact that a convicted
criminal should not be the president of the United States,
and how dangerous this is and what a precedent it's setting.
(19:58):
There wasn't like an I for one am sick of it.
And so also Donald Trump doesn't exhibit that he is
quote unquote all there either, right, but again there is
still no there's no coordination around trying to protect our democracy,
but there is absolute coordination on trying to take down
Joe Biden.
Speaker 3 (20:18):
Well, I mean, for me, I've thought a lot about this.
I agree with everything you just said a lot, but
I would also say I don't care about whether or
not Trump is competent. I think Trump is incompetent, but
it doesn't matter to me really, because for me, the
question isn't comparent Biden and Trump. It's what it's the
narratives Democrats will tell themselves to get the coalition together,
(20:40):
so Trump could be job of the Hut for all
I care. Media is in a lot of ways already,
but this story I do feel about Biden's competency and
whether he'll take a meeting now after six pm and
all these kind of things like it that's important for
Democrats independent of the coverage that Trump gets. I just
I think there's something about like what narrative do we
have to tell ourselves as Democrats to get back to
(21:04):
building because honestly, Trump voters aren't going to vote for
our side, but our coalition. If we hold together, you know,
we win. But I don't know. I just it's just
there's so many missteps here. It's just it's I mean,
obviously we're going to mobilize around whoever the candidate is.
I personally think, given everything, that's if they can pull
(21:25):
it off. I personally think a Harris somebody ticket would
be more exciting for people in a four month period
if they could mobilize the same networks and resources. I
don't know if that's possible. And I do think some
of these questions about could you do the job? I
think are valid questions right now. Now. It's infuriating that
these have been held from us for a long time
and everything matters about who wins the election. But I
(21:49):
don't know enough about this. I'd be curious to note
could we pull off like a Kamala Harris, And I
mean I love Andy Basheer as you know ticket or
something like that. You know, So I just want to
do where it takes to win.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
Everyone needs to be focused on. What I want to
see is the same loyalty and circling of the wagons
that Republicans can do for a convicted felon, for us
to do for Joe Biden for the next four months.
We need to get to inauguration day. We need to
get we need to win the election and get to
inauguration day. I don't care about what happens after that,
and I don't understand why that can't just happen like that.
(22:29):
The focus can't be on the existential threat that we're
in and just move in that direction for the next
four months. What happens after that, I don't care.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
It's just really it's like the viewership of NMSNBC versus
the viewership of Fox News. Can you convince enough people
who don't already agree with what you just said, which
is me and you and all our friends who saw
Biden at that debate. Can you convince enough people who
are like swings it's really going to better swing state
undecided voters. That's really, you know, whatever a narrative convinces them,
(23:03):
I will go with that. The meetings are all happening
today as actually as we are talking about this right now,
so I'm curious to see. So the question will be
like how much damage did that? It wasn't just the debate.
It was the debate that kind of opened a flood
of frustration that people have been feeling gas lit. I think,
how much damage did that do to swing state voters?
(23:24):
And that'll be the poll and that I think that'll
be what happens. But I don't know. I just I
don't need Jill Biden yelling at me right now.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
Fair point.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
Well we will leave it there today, my friend. I
wish you safe, safe travels, keep in touch with us
while you are away, because I'm interested to know what
insight folks have for the United States and what their
thoughts are around their own issues of structural racism.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
Yeah, I mean, I've here. I actual, to be honest,
it was like take your breath away moment. I'm like,
do you want me to come talk about peace negotiations
or war something? And like the actually we want to
learn how we can be more racially equitdople. I don't know,
there was something about it. This was like the last
answer I thought. I'm like, oh, I'll come, you know,
(24:11):
I'll come and we'll see and again this group is
mixed in ways that are just it's you know, you
can't get a sense of what it's like from here
in that regard. You know, they're so anyway excited to
go and come back and talk to everybody about amazing.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
That is it for me today, dear friends on Woke
a f as always power to the people and to
all the people. Power, get woke and stay woke as fuck.
Host
Danielle Moodie
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