June 27, 2024 • 32 mins
Danielle reacts to the unprecedented primary defeat of Jamaal Bowman, and Jonathan Metzl returns to discuss his thoughts on the Surgeon General's declaration that guns are a public health crisis.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Good morning, peeps, and welcome to wok F Daily with
Meet your Girl Danielle Moody, recording from the Home Bunker.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Folks, I'm coming to you.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Today from a place of struggle, from a place of
feeling complicit in the compartmentalization that we do as citizens
of this country, where we acquiesce to the little that
(00:41):
we get from our government and justify the wrongs that
are committed in our name or committed truly in the
name of capitalism, greed, and patriarchy. But we do so,
and then we tell ourselves. I feel that at well,
(01:02):
change takes time. Change is slow, justice is slow. The
arc is long, but it bends towards justice. Is everyone's
favorite quote from Martin Luther King Junior. And today I
don't know. I am speaking to you as I prepare
(01:22):
to head to Washington, DC to attend a Pride event
at the White House, and I was trying to decide
whether or not I was going to share publicly that
I was going to attend the Pride event at the
White House. And then I realize that if I'm keeping
it a secret, or I'm just not sharing it in
(01:44):
the way that I share most of things that I
do around work, then that means something deeper. I woke
up this morning and was really wondering whether or not
I was going to go. And there are so many reasons.
There were so many reasons that I talk about on
this show. But when I received the news that Representative
(02:05):
Jamal Bowman lost his primary race to APAC, backed basically
of Republican Light George Latimer, who was endorsed by Hillary
Clinton among other Establishment Democrats, is pro Israel, which means
(02:26):
to me, your pro genocide. I was disgusted because this
is what special interest groups with a lot of fucking
money and a lot of fucking power do. They thwart
the will of the people in order to advance their
own interests. That race had nothing to do with the
(02:46):
district that Bowman has been representing. It had nothing to
do with the people in that district. It had everything
to do with using power and influence to silence those
that you don't agree with on an issue that honestly
everyone should agree on. Humanity right, how we navigate war, right,
(03:09):
the rules of a fucking engagement. But APAC, along with
establishment Democrats, sent a powerful message through Bowman's loss, which
is shut up and get in line, and if you don't,
we will dispose of you. And so I struggle with
(03:31):
going to a pride event at the White House while
children are starving, while an entire group of people, millions
of people have been run off their land, blown up, beaten,
raped and tortured, all in the name of security and safety.
(03:52):
And I posted on social media that you are never
going to convince me that any of those acts are
about securing safety for any one group of people. And
so I have very little pride in this moment. And
I reached out to a friend of mine who was
(04:14):
running down all of the things that the Biden administration
has done for the queer community, the inclusion of queer
kids in Title nine, the protections that Biden is trying
to put forward, all of which frankly, can be rolled
back right like as soon as Donald Trump would assume
(04:35):
the White House, all of these executive orders, all of
these advancements are gone. And so what does it mean
to have pride in this moment? I really don't know.
I know that my initial reason for wanting to attend
the White House Pride event was because, in my heart, folks,
I honestly believe that this may be the last one,
(04:58):
and I want I wanted to experience the White House
with my friends, with my community for potentially the last time.
And I feel selfish in wanting to do that. I
feel complicit in the violence, in the greed, in the
dehumanization that is happening. But honestly, I just I find
(05:22):
myself today at a loss.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
We are waiting.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
By the time that you listen to this, the Supreme
Court could have decided that Donald Trump is immune and
presidents are immune from persecution for crimes committed while in office.
They're taking up a case that they will hear whether
or not trans youth and trans people should receive the
(05:47):
medical treatment that they need to live full and complete lives.
If your life has never been on the line, if
you have never waited with anxiousness and dread as a
group of unelected black robes decide whether or not you
are worthy, you are part of a privileged class. I
(06:10):
just feel like everything around us is crumbling so quickly.
It's like trying to hold water in your hands, and
everything is just seeping through the cracks everywhere. Power, privilege,
and whiteness are winning. And so what does it mean
(06:35):
to just want to pretend for two hours that we
are safe, that we are okay, that we have the
means to ride out this dark tempest that we're in.
I don't feel celebratory. I don't feel hopeful. And I
(06:56):
know that my ancestors experienced far fucking worse, and there
are people alive right now that are experiencing the unimaginable.
So what do we do?
Speaker 2 (07:14):
I don't know. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
We are set to celebrate as a country our independence.
It seems laughable, it seems ridiculous. But do we continue
to celebrate small incremental victories, small incremental change moments while
(07:37):
continuing to toil for the greater good? But if this moment,
if this primary loss by Bowmen is foreshadowing, this is
why Biden is making the decisions that he's making. They
(07:57):
spend twenty million dollars to oust a progressive black man
from office, They'll spend billions to do that for the presidency.
And so the politics, the dark, fucking evil politics that
are at play, it's just a lot. And it's like,
(08:20):
do we allow this administration to continue the political maneuvering
that they're doing because they know that a pack and
other APAC backed organizations and foundations and super wealthy billionaires
will oust him. Because at the end of the day, folks,
(08:42):
Joe Biden's going to be fine, right, He's a wealthy,
white powerful man in America. If he doesn't regain the presidency,
he'll be fine.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
He'll live out his you know, sunset years.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
Okay, it is the rest of us, and it is
the horrendous non choices that we are really being dealt.
It is hard, hard pills to swallow when you recognize
that you are backed into a corner and the only
(09:17):
way to get out is to fight our way out
with everything that we have. Because these people, their pockets
are bottomless, their lies are endless, their power and reach
no no bounds. All we have left is the community
that we built, that we continue to nurture and lift
(09:40):
up and push forward.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
So today I.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
Am headed to the White House to remind myself in
many ways what is at stake, and to try and
get the courage, the faith, the resilience to continue pushing forward.
The months ahead just feel so insurmountable, but it is
(10:07):
always impossible until it is done. Coming up next, my
conversation with our friend, our in house doctor, doctor Jonathan Metzel.
We talk about a recent piece that was written by
the Surgeon General on naming gun violence in this country
is a public health issue, which is exactly what Jonathan's book,
(10:29):
whose latest book, What We've Become, is all about, is
how we need to reframe and how public health may
not be the framing that is needed. That conversation is
coming up next, folks. You know that whenever we have
the opportunity to sit down with our in house doctor,
(10:49):
doctor Jonathan Metzl, we are always always thrilled and honored.
And I will say, dear friends, I know Jonathan lied
to you last week when he said that this week
we were to talk about rainbows, puppies and sprinkles, But
unfortunately wrong country for that. We're not in Finland, Norway
or someplace else that seems nice and safe.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
Let me say one thing about this. I appreciate that.
You know. It's funny because like I'm in New York
for the summer and I have all these Fox News
watching friends or people I know in Tennessee or something
like that, and when they're here I'm in New York,
They're like, oh my god, you know you people must
be having tires burning in the streets and like you
(11:32):
must be at the barricades every day or something like that.
And so I do think there's a rule for like
cheerful conversation. And I've been tweeting. Actually I've been walking
on New York and like take like, I walk down
my block the other day and there was there's this
thing called like Opera in the Streets or something, and
they had a stoop. They had a concert on the
stoop where they were like these beautifully it's just incredible
(11:56):
opera voices, singing arias, and like everybody was out there
with like their kids and their families. And then I
walked another block away and there was a steel drum concert.
They were doing like all these covers on steel drum
and everybody was dancing. So I've been tweeting like here's
what Fox News doesn't show you. It's just like how
(12:16):
great it is here is there?
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Yeah, it's just like and I appreciate that you do
that because anytime that I see somebody like tweet something,
I mean, you're saying that these are you like your friends.
But I'm like, anytime that I have somebody that tweets
that I see that tweets something stupid about New York.
I always tweet like a picture like from where I am,
like if it's at the park, or if it's like
walking and passing like eighty seven strollers like on you know,
(12:41):
like it's just it's so I'm like, I'm I would
be more terrified to spend the summer in Tennessee and
I would ever be to spend the summer in New York.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
It kind of works because I remember we talked about
this with Tennessee, and like in Tennessee there's like I
have friends who DJ'ed Bonnerou last week and there's like
a fun concert happening tonight, and like it's just funny.
How like we lived through these stereotypes which make us
like yeah, fear each other, and it's so manipulated. I mean,
I can't say this too much, but I know some
(13:11):
people at one of the very conservative media outlets, and
I know them like socially. I mean, I don't know
that like we're not friends or anything. But we were
out of reception a couple of weeks ago with some
of the Fox News hosts, Oh my god, and they
were like yacking it up and everybody was like getting
(13:33):
along and stuff like that, and then it was in Chelsea.
Everybody went out with like everybody's strollers, like acuge group,
people went for dinner, went for drinks, and then the
next day they were on Fox News saying it's a
hell hole. I'm afraid to like walk outside my door.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Like let me tell you something.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
You are better than me because I cannot break bread
with thine enemy like that. That is not a part
of my personal wook of religion.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
I cannot do it and stuff like it's funny. There
used to be this thing called Politicon. It was this yeah,
and it was great. I used to love speaking at
that thing. I don't think they do in person anymore,
but it was my favorite thing because like you'd be
on stage with like every wacket doodle in the world.
And the funny thing was like there was a panel.
We did a gun panel, and there was another panel
(14:20):
on healthcare or somebody else or something like that. And
if you go in the green room at Politicon, like, oh,
there's you know, I'm just making this up, but I
mean and culture yaking it up with like the MSNBC
host and Joy Read is like talking to like Sean Hannity,
like it just kind of felt like in the back
and there used to be this cartoon on the like bugs,
(14:43):
funny kind of cartoon where like the member, the sheep,
dog and the wolf would like they'd like get to
work in the morning. They'd be like, hey, Sam, how
are the kids? And then they'd clock in and they'd
beat the crap out of each other for eight hours
and they'd clock out or something like that. And that's what
it felt like like in the back room. Everybody was
just like a normal person. But the market we've created,
(15:04):
the market rewards people like hating each other, So there
is a huge market for people thinking.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
But here's what I'll say about that market piece, and
then I want to transition to the article. I do
think that there was a time again, and I think
that that time is well pass gone. I think that
time was probably fifteen twenty years ago when there was
more camaraderie in terms of the industry around journalism and media.
And I think that what has happened is Fox News.
(15:33):
I think that what has happened is this decision, conscious
decision that Rupert Murdoch made that was just like they're
the enemy, right, because I don't ever believe that Democrats
and you know, quote unquote, because I can't even call
MSNBC progressive media because it's not. But I think that
there was a time when mainstream media didn't see each
(15:56):
other as the enemy. It was Fox News that did
that and so so out of that spin, then you've
created this US versus them mentality, and that's what feeds
their audience, because what they don't want to feed their
audience is any semblance of the truth, which is that
to the point of the article I'm about to bring up,
is that we have more in common than they want
(16:18):
us to believe. Like, we have more in common and
want a lot of the same things, but it does
not serve those in power. It does not serve the
one percent. It does not serve those systems to bring
people together. There is more money and there is more
power for them in divisiveness, and that is what they
feed on, having turned our politics into a game of
(16:40):
sport as opposed to like a conversation around ideas. So
that being said, you, my friend, are featured mentioned in
a New York Times article that came out in the
Health section today entitled Surgeon General declares gun violence a
public healthcre isis doctor Vivek Murthy is calling for a
(17:03):
multi pronged effort to reduce gun depths, modeled on campaigns
against smoking and traffic fatalities.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
So what he says here and.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
Then I want to give you an opportunity to give
your points, Jonathan, But essentially the Surgeon General has said
this in the article quote, I've long believed this is
a public health issue. When talking about guns, this issue
has been politicized, has been polarized over time. But I
think when we understand that this is a public health issue,
(17:33):
we have the opportunity to take it out of the
realm of politics and put it into the realm of
public health. You disagree on this point. You've written a
book right which we've talked about what We've Become, that
talks about reframing this very idea. So set up why
you disagree with this stance of guns being a public
(17:56):
health issue.
Speaker 3 (17:57):
Well, thank you. First let me say I do think
think that by every sense of the word, guns do
represent a threat to life and well being and health
that needs public health intervention. So I'm not saying, oh,
we should not do this. I think we should do
this right, and there are important ways that calling it
(18:18):
a public health crisis brings research, and it brings authority,
and it brings all these ways that we can think
about addressing this. But for me, the framework really falls short.
That's the whole argument of my book. And I think
there are three main ways that I kind of go
crazy when stuff like this happens. To be honest, not
again that I don't support it. I mean, if you
(18:38):
just look at gun related injuries and deaths, it's over
fifty thousand a year, which is a man made pathogen
killing that many people in this country and injuring many
many more. Is something we need to intervene into. But
there are I think three problems that I talk about
in the book. Number one is that we convinced America
that cigarette and faulty seat belts and all these things
(19:02):
were health risks that the prevention model would work in
that regard. And so, for example, if you go into
a into a restaurant anywhere in the country and somebody
lights up a cigarette, the whole restaurant's going to be like, no, dude,
you know. Second, if you get into a car and
somebody doesn't like click it or ticket or whatever, you're like, hey, man,
(19:23):
we're not driving until you put on that seat belt.
So we convince people of this, but we haven't done
that with guns. To understate greatly, I've interviewed so many
gun owners, and they don't see guns as health risks.
We failed to convince them. They see guns as protection,
as protectors, protectors of their family. And that's for a
(19:43):
bunch of reasons. One is just decades of messaging from
the NRA, but also the racial history of the United States,
which coded gun ownership as a privilege of whiteness, and
so guns carry these different, very historical emotional symbols. And
so for those reasons, gun owners the people who are
(20:04):
going to be impacted by any gun policy, not only
do they are not convinced by the prevention model, they
kind of feel exactly the opposite, that public health is
coming for their freedom and liberty, and so just calling
it a health frame it reinforces the stereotype that often
non gun owning liberals have, But it doesn't speak to
the people who are the people who're trying to convince
(20:26):
to kind of follow the rules that we're convincing. And
so part of the story for me is, if you
really want to address guns, you have to address what
it means to carry and own a gun. You have
to address the history of whiteness and relationship to gun ownership.
You have to do all these other factors. You have
to build out infrastructures and cities to make them safer.
And we've talked about two weeks ago here and so
(20:48):
in a way, just for me, the public health frame
is very limiting. It doesn't do any of those things.
And so a bunch of liberals, you know, like me,
cheer and say, finally the Surgeon General is doing a
report on this. But it's important to recognize that that
convinces people very often who are already convinced and to
really intervene here. Its guns are. They're a much bigger
(21:09):
problem than a public health from there a democracy problem,
they're an electoral problem, they're a regional problem, a racial problem,
and public health just doesn't do any of those things.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
When I hear the numbers kind of that were lifted
up in this reporting, which is that the rates of
firearm mortality for young people in America is nearly six
times the rate in Canada, nearly twenty three times the
rate in Australia, nearly seventy three times the rate in
the United Kingdom. The Surgeon General's Advisory said that the
(21:44):
last decade we have seen that unintentional gunshot wounds in
the cases of children and adolescents, around three quarters of
the firearms used were not stored and locked. We know
that the CDC has come out and said recently that
gun deaths is the number one cause of deaths for
children in this country. So when the veach murthy, doctor
(22:08):
Murphy says we need a multi pronged approach, can the
public health peace be a part of that multi health
prong or are you saying that no, it can't be
a part of it. It shouldn't be a part of it
at all, because it doesn't have the range essentially to
be able to address the very important points that you
(22:30):
brought up.
Speaker 3 (22:31):
Well, I of course think, of course there should be
a public health prong. Of course I went there to
be safety, and especially in the more preventable causes of
gun death like mass shootings are very hard to predict
and prevent, but like gun suicide, if somebody has a
gun available within fifty nine minutes of having a crisis,
(22:52):
the rates of gun suicide go up. Child shootings go
up if people don't lock their guns in safes, all
these kinds of things. So there are many things that
I think public health is useful for. So it's not
like I'm anti public health, but I can say that
even if we had universal public health tomorrow, we would
still have many of the same problems that public health
(23:14):
does not address because guns are not just a health problem.
That's kind of the argument of my book that guns
really are a democracy problem. And I say that because
the NA has used the gun issue to seat lifetime judges,
you know, thirty five year old judges who have never
heard a case in some of these appellate courts. They
(23:34):
use the gun issue to hijack our democracy. And so
while we were rallying importantly for public opinion shifting around
public health, the NRA was using the gun issue for
a totally different agenda, which was anti democracy. And so
while we were rallying to get to this point about
(23:55):
public health, their strategy was using the gun issue to
eat judges, to overturn elections, to overturn the will of
New York voters, and the Bruin case and the rule
of you know ore again. Virginia, Ohio, there's a long
list of voters want things in place about gun safety.
(24:15):
But because these judges are radicalized, they're overturning not just
gun laws, they're overturning women's reproductive rights and germandering and
voting and all these things. So guns were a tool
that was about power for the right, and the public
health model was like, let's just all get together and
save some lives, and that's great. I'm one hundred percent
(24:37):
before that. We have way too much gun injury and death.
But if you don't see the bigger agenda of what's happening,
you could have a warning on every gun in America
and you'd still have the bigger problem, which is that
while we were marching about gun safety, the other side
was using the gun issue to seat judges across the
country and Supreme Court judges and all these things. So
(25:00):
for me, the public health frame just doesn't go far enough,
and we have to as we embrace public help. I
just think we have to recognize the limitations because you're right,
all that data about us versus the world, it's unconsortable.
But it's also true that it's injury and death data
will not show you the bigger real problem for me
(25:20):
about guns, which is about, you know, you want to
understand what gun politics lead to. Read Project twenty twenty five.
That's that agenda. Read what people are saying about if
Trump loses the election, what they're going to do, all
these kind of things. Guns are not just a health problem,
They're a democracy problem. And to me, that's kind of
what all my research points toward.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
Does that make sense, Yeah, no, it makes total sense.
And I think that where my cynicism lies is that
I am no longer believing that people can be convinced
that guns are a real issue in this country. Like
I think that those of us who have won to serious, necessary,
(26:02):
aggressive gun reforms have just been met with a multi
billion dollar gun lobby, have been met with politicians that
we know are bought and paid for with their A
plus plus ratings from the NRA, And so I don't
necessarily believe that any convincing of the population which their
(26:25):
positions and their desire to see change is not going
to happen with politicians who's gerrymandered districts and a lobby
that has bought the federal bench. So I'm just like,
meet my cynicism with possibility right now, I guess is
the point is what I'm gonna ask Jonathan, because I
don't see it.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
Can you meet it with passive? Well, it's like really quiet.
Everybody just never happened, you know.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
Again, We've talked about this a lot. I think that
in a way we just didn't see what we were
up against in a way, in a way, public health
immediately jumped into the fore when nobody else did, which
is super super important, but it just it wasn't the
answer to the threat we were facing, right, which is
that the right recognized that for two centuries in this country,
(27:15):
only white men could carry guns, and that that was
a symbol of a right given to white men that
wasn't given to other people, and carrying a gun in
public meant whiteness.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
In a way.
Speaker 3 (27:26):
You know, from pre colonial America on down, that white
men could carry guns to suppress Native or Indian uprisings,
then slaves running away and all these kind of things.
The clan rode the night ride night night writers were
trying to disarm black people who had guns. Black codes
(27:48):
across the South. So there's a long history of what
it means to own and carry a gun, which ain't
about health. It's about power and privilege. And so yes,
guns are killing and entering way, way, way too many people,
but guns symbolize power for a lot of people, and
so calling it a public health problem is not going
(28:10):
to convince people if it's not also tied to electoral
reform and judge reform and anti jerimandering efforts and all
these things. And I guess I'm saying this because the
right recognized this. They recognize that they had like the
perfect symbol of what it meant to be a white man.
You know, nobody's going to take this away. The government's
(28:30):
not going to take this away, and they have amplified
this for decades now. And is calling it a public
health problem going to address that? Or is it going
to convince the people who are already convinced and marginalize
the people who are who don't agree with it. And
so the question is, I don't know for me that
polarization is the is the bigger problem. I'm not you know,
(28:50):
in the book, as you know, I talk about a
lot of ways I think we can address this that
aren't linked to public health, right making communities safer, creating
job and green programs, and all these kind of things,
like looking at the ways in which we can actually
make public space safer. That's always my answer. I'm a structuralist.
But you know, again, I hope this does good. I
(29:11):
really do hope this does good. I'm not rooting against it.
I'm just saying that I have a whole book of
counter argument evidence, which is not an answer to what
you're saying. But I just think that if we don't
address these bigger issues, we're going to just keep being
in the same feedback.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
Lop And I guess that that's where the cynicism is,
and that's where like the frustration, you know, it's like
my anger, my rage vacillates to cynicism, and like not apathy,
but just a lack of possibility that we are going
to see anything change in our lifetimes. I mean, when
you see a classroom of children, kindergarteners whose names were
(29:51):
just read out recently at the high school graduation that
the Newtown children should have been at, but we're murdered
in classroom and there's no change that happens in this country,
then like I feel like we've just lost right. And
I think then that's why so many people will then
turn around, they will pick up their own guns and
(30:12):
be like, well fuck it. If I can't beat them,
we can't beat sent into them. We can't show them
the you know, And maybe we just should have begged
those parents to show the bodies of their children, as
mam Ma Atill did with em at Till's body, right, Like,
maybe that's what we need because otherwise, you know, you
have the right calling folks crisis actors and just you know,
(30:33):
disregarding the lives of our children.
Speaker 3 (30:36):
Well, but also, let me just say that you need
a long term strategy, right In other words, people, you
need a long term strategy. If calling this a public
health crisis more will lead to judges, honestly will it'll
lead to judges. If it's enough of a wedge issue
that it'll lead to that, then there is a long
term strategy, right if exposing the violence, like you're saying,
(30:57):
we'll do this. But I just think the problem is
people act like public health is common sense, and that
is not the case for me. I think if it's
not tied to a long term strategy in the American
zero sum political situation, it's just got to lead to
reproducing the problems and so if public health is tied
to electoral format, anti gearmandering and all this kind of thing.
(31:20):
But the issue for me is when I talk to
public health people a lot of times I'm like, oh, no,
that's politics. We're a political and I'm like, dude, this
is a political issue, and so it's got to be
you know, if this leads to more political engagement that
is about the judiciary, then count me in one hundred percent.
It's more just when people start calling public health common sense,
(31:40):
that's I think we're being into trouble because it's not
common sense for the people you're trying to convince to
follow your rules.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
All right, my friend, we will leave it there today
and pick it up again next week.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
Always always appreciate.
Speaker 3 (31:55):
Week as a restaurant and movie week.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
So it's going to be a bunch of sad documentaries.
All right, Appreciate you, my friend.
Speaker 3 (32:05):
Bye, everybody.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
That is it for me today.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
Dear friends on Woke af as always, Power to the
people and to all the people.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
Power, get woke and stay woke as fuck.
Good morning, peeps, and welcome to wok F Daily with
Meet your Girl Danielle Moody, recording from the Home Bunker.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Folks, I'm coming to you.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Today from a place of struggle, from a place of
feeling complicit in the compartmentalization that we do as citizens
of this country, where we acquiesce to the little that
(00:41):
we get from our government and justify the wrongs that
are committed in our name or committed truly in the
name of capitalism, greed, and patriarchy. But we do so,
and then we tell ourselves. I feel that at well,
(01:02):
change takes time. Change is slow, justice is slow. The
arc is long, but it bends towards justice. Is everyone's
favorite quote from Martin Luther King Junior. And today I
don't know. I am speaking to you as I prepare
(01:22):
to head to Washington, DC to attend a Pride event
at the White House, and I was trying to decide
whether or not I was going to share publicly that
I was going to attend the Pride event at the
White House. And then I realize that if I'm keeping
it a secret, or I'm just not sharing it in
(01:44):
the way that I share most of things that I
do around work, then that means something deeper. I woke
up this morning and was really wondering whether or not
I was going to go. And there are so many reasons.
There were so many reasons that I talk about on
this show. But when I received the news that Representative
(02:05):
Jamal Bowman lost his primary race to APAC, backed basically
of Republican Light George Latimer, who was endorsed by Hillary
Clinton among other Establishment Democrats, is pro Israel, which means
(02:26):
to me, your pro genocide. I was disgusted because this
is what special interest groups with a lot of fucking
money and a lot of fucking power do. They thwart
the will of the people in order to advance their
own interests. That race had nothing to do with the
(02:46):
district that Bowman has been representing. It had nothing to
do with the people in that district. It had everything
to do with using power and influence to silence those
that you don't agree with on an issue that honestly
everyone should agree on. Humanity right, how we navigate war, right,
(03:09):
the rules of a fucking engagement. But APAC, along with
establishment Democrats, sent a powerful message through Bowman's loss, which
is shut up and get in line, and if you don't,
we will dispose of you. And so I struggle with
(03:31):
going to a pride event at the White House while
children are starving, while an entire group of people, millions
of people have been run off their land, blown up, beaten,
raped and tortured, all in the name of security and safety.
(03:52):
And I posted on social media that you are never
going to convince me that any of those acts are
about securing safety for any one group of people. And
so I have very little pride in this moment. And
I reached out to a friend of mine who was
(04:14):
running down all of the things that the Biden administration
has done for the queer community, the inclusion of queer
kids in Title nine, the protections that Biden is trying
to put forward, all of which frankly, can be rolled
back right like as soon as Donald Trump would assume
(04:35):
the White House, all of these executive orders, all of
these advancements are gone. And so what does it mean
to have pride in this moment? I really don't know.
I know that my initial reason for wanting to attend
the White House Pride event was because, in my heart, folks,
I honestly believe that this may be the last one,
(04:58):
and I want I wanted to experience the White House
with my friends, with my community for potentially the last time.
And I feel selfish in wanting to do that. I
feel complicit in the violence, in the greed, in the
dehumanization that is happening. But honestly, I just I find
(05:22):
myself today at a loss.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
We are waiting.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
By the time that you listen to this, the Supreme
Court could have decided that Donald Trump is immune and
presidents are immune from persecution for crimes committed while in office.
They're taking up a case that they will hear whether
or not trans youth and trans people should receive the
(05:47):
medical treatment that they need to live full and complete lives.
If your life has never been on the line, if
you have never waited with anxiousness and dread as a
group of unelected black robes decide whether or not you
are worthy, you are part of a privileged class. I
(06:10):
just feel like everything around us is crumbling so quickly.
It's like trying to hold water in your hands, and
everything is just seeping through the cracks everywhere. Power, privilege,
and whiteness are winning. And so what does it mean
(06:35):
to just want to pretend for two hours that we
are safe, that we are okay, that we have the
means to ride out this dark tempest that we're in.
I don't feel celebratory. I don't feel hopeful. And I
(06:56):
know that my ancestors experienced far fucking worse, and there
are people alive right now that are experiencing the unimaginable.
So what do we do?
Speaker 2 (07:14):
I don't know. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
We are set to celebrate as a country our independence.
It seems laughable, it seems ridiculous. But do we continue
to celebrate small incremental victories, small incremental change moments while
(07:37):
continuing to toil for the greater good? But if this moment,
if this primary loss by Bowmen is foreshadowing, this is
why Biden is making the decisions that he's making. They
(07:57):
spend twenty million dollars to oust a progressive black man
from office, They'll spend billions to do that for the presidency.
And so the politics, the dark, fucking evil politics that
are at play, it's just a lot. And it's like,
(08:20):
do we allow this administration to continue the political maneuvering
that they're doing because they know that a pack and
other APAC backed organizations and foundations and super wealthy billionaires
will oust him. Because at the end of the day, folks,
(08:42):
Joe Biden's going to be fine, right, He's a wealthy,
white powerful man in America. If he doesn't regain the presidency,
he'll be fine.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
He'll live out his you know, sunset years.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
Okay, it is the rest of us, and it is
the horrendous non choices that we are really being dealt.
It is hard, hard pills to swallow when you recognize
that you are backed into a corner and the only
(09:17):
way to get out is to fight our way out
with everything that we have. Because these people, their pockets
are bottomless, their lies are endless, their power and reach
no no bounds. All we have left is the community
that we built, that we continue to nurture and lift
(09:40):
up and push forward.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
So today I.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
Am headed to the White House to remind myself in
many ways what is at stake, and to try and
get the courage, the faith, the resilience to continue pushing forward.
The months ahead just feel so insurmountable, but it is
(10:07):
always impossible until it is done. Coming up next, my
conversation with our friend, our in house doctor, doctor Jonathan Metzel.
We talk about a recent piece that was written by
the Surgeon General on naming gun violence in this country
is a public health issue, which is exactly what Jonathan's book,
(10:29):
whose latest book, What We've Become, is all about, is
how we need to reframe and how public health may
not be the framing that is needed. That conversation is
coming up next, folks. You know that whenever we have
the opportunity to sit down with our in house doctor,
(10:49):
doctor Jonathan Metzl, we are always always thrilled and honored.
And I will say, dear friends, I know Jonathan lied
to you last week when he said that this week
we were to talk about rainbows, puppies and sprinkles, But
unfortunately wrong country for that. We're not in Finland, Norway
or someplace else that seems nice and safe.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
Let me say one thing about this. I appreciate that.
You know. It's funny because like I'm in New York
for the summer and I have all these Fox News
watching friends or people I know in Tennessee or something
like that, and when they're here I'm in New York,
They're like, oh my god, you know you people must
be having tires burning in the streets and like you
(11:32):
must be at the barricades every day or something like that.
And so I do think there's a rule for like
cheerful conversation. And I've been tweeting. Actually I've been walking
on New York and like take like, I walk down
my block the other day and there was there's this
thing called like Opera in the Streets or something, and
they had a stoop. They had a concert on the
stoop where they were like these beautifully it's just incredible
(11:56):
opera voices, singing arias, and like everybody was out there
with like their kids and their families. And then I
walked another block away and there was a steel drum concert.
They were doing like all these covers on steel drum
and everybody was dancing. So I've been tweeting like here's
what Fox News doesn't show you. It's just like how
(12:16):
great it is here is there?
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Yeah, it's just like and I appreciate that you do
that because anytime that I see somebody like tweet something,
I mean, you're saying that these are you like your friends.
But I'm like, anytime that I have somebody that tweets
that I see that tweets something stupid about New York.
I always tweet like a picture like from where I am,
like if it's at the park, or if it's like
walking and passing like eighty seven strollers like on you know,
(12:41):
like it's just it's so I'm like, I'm I would
be more terrified to spend the summer in Tennessee and
I would ever be to spend the summer in New York.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
It kind of works because I remember we talked about
this with Tennessee, and like in Tennessee there's like I
have friends who DJ'ed Bonnerou last week and there's like
a fun concert happening tonight, and like it's just funny.
How like we lived through these stereotypes which make us
like yeah, fear each other, and it's so manipulated. I mean,
I can't say this too much, but I know some
(13:11):
people at one of the very conservative media outlets, and
I know them like socially. I mean, I don't know
that like we're not friends or anything. But we were
out of reception a couple of weeks ago with some
of the Fox News hosts, Oh my god, and they
were like yacking it up and everybody was like getting
(13:33):
along and stuff like that, and then it was in Chelsea.
Everybody went out with like everybody's strollers, like acuge group,
people went for dinner, went for drinks, and then the
next day they were on Fox News saying it's a
hell hole. I'm afraid to like walk outside my door.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Like let me tell you something.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
You are better than me because I cannot break bread
with thine enemy like that. That is not a part
of my personal wook of religion.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
I cannot do it and stuff like it's funny. There
used to be this thing called Politicon. It was this yeah,
and it was great. I used to love speaking at
that thing. I don't think they do in person anymore,
but it was my favorite thing because like you'd be
on stage with like every wacket doodle in the world.
And the funny thing was like there was a panel.
We did a gun panel, and there was another panel
(14:20):
on healthcare or somebody else or something like that. And
if you go in the green room at Politicon, like, oh,
there's you know, I'm just making this up, but I
mean and culture yaking it up with like the MSNBC
host and Joy Read is like talking to like Sean Hannity,
like it just kind of felt like in the back
and there used to be this cartoon on the like bugs,
(14:43):
funny kind of cartoon where like the member, the sheep,
dog and the wolf would like they'd like get to
work in the morning. They'd be like, hey, Sam, how
are the kids? And then they'd clock in and they'd
beat the crap out of each other for eight hours
and they'd clock out or something like that. And that's what
it felt like like in the back room. Everybody was
just like a normal person. But the market we've created,
(15:04):
the market rewards people like hating each other, So there
is a huge market for people thinking.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
But here's what I'll say about that market piece, and
then I want to transition to the article. I do
think that there was a time again, and I think
that that time is well pass gone. I think that
time was probably fifteen twenty years ago when there was
more camaraderie in terms of the industry around journalism and media.
And I think that what has happened is Fox News.
(15:33):
I think that what has happened is this decision, conscious
decision that Rupert Murdoch made that was just like they're
the enemy, right, because I don't ever believe that Democrats
and you know, quote unquote, because I can't even call
MSNBC progressive media because it's not. But I think that
there was a time when mainstream media didn't see each
(15:56):
other as the enemy. It was Fox News that did
that and so so out of that spin, then you've
created this US versus them mentality, and that's what feeds
their audience, because what they don't want to feed their
audience is any semblance of the truth, which is that
to the point of the article I'm about to bring up,
is that we have more in common than they want
(16:18):
us to believe. Like, we have more in common and
want a lot of the same things, but it does
not serve those in power. It does not serve the
one percent. It does not serve those systems to bring
people together. There is more money and there is more
power for them in divisiveness, and that is what they
feed on, having turned our politics into a game of
(16:40):
sport as opposed to like a conversation around ideas. So
that being said, you, my friend, are featured mentioned in
a New York Times article that came out in the
Health section today entitled Surgeon General declares gun violence a
public healthcre isis doctor Vivek Murthy is calling for a
(17:03):
multi pronged effort to reduce gun depths, modeled on campaigns
against smoking and traffic fatalities.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
So what he says here and.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
Then I want to give you an opportunity to give
your points, Jonathan, But essentially the Surgeon General has said
this in the article quote, I've long believed this is
a public health issue. When talking about guns, this issue
has been politicized, has been polarized over time. But I
think when we understand that this is a public health issue,
(17:33):
we have the opportunity to take it out of the
realm of politics and put it into the realm of
public health. You disagree on this point. You've written a
book right which we've talked about what We've Become, that
talks about reframing this very idea. So set up why
you disagree with this stance of guns being a public
(17:56):
health issue.
Speaker 3 (17:57):
Well, thank you. First let me say I do think
think that by every sense of the word, guns do
represent a threat to life and well being and health
that needs public health intervention. So I'm not saying, oh,
we should not do this. I think we should do
this right, and there are important ways that calling it
(18:18):
a public health crisis brings research, and it brings authority,
and it brings all these ways that we can think
about addressing this. But for me, the framework really falls short.
That's the whole argument of my book. And I think
there are three main ways that I kind of go
crazy when stuff like this happens. To be honest, not
again that I don't support it. I mean, if you
(18:38):
just look at gun related injuries and deaths, it's over
fifty thousand a year, which is a man made pathogen
killing that many people in this country and injuring many
many more. Is something we need to intervene into. But
there are I think three problems that I talk about
in the book. Number one is that we convinced America
that cigarette and faulty seat belts and all these things
(19:02):
were health risks that the prevention model would work in
that regard. And so, for example, if you go into
a into a restaurant anywhere in the country and somebody
lights up a cigarette, the whole restaurant's going to be like, no, dude,
you know. Second, if you get into a car and
somebody doesn't like click it or ticket or whatever, you're like, hey, man,
(19:23):
we're not driving until you put on that seat belt.
So we convince people of this, but we haven't done
that with guns. To understate greatly, I've interviewed so many
gun owners, and they don't see guns as health risks.
We failed to convince them. They see guns as protection,
as protectors, protectors of their family. And that's for a
(19:43):
bunch of reasons. One is just decades of messaging from
the NRA, but also the racial history of the United States,
which coded gun ownership as a privilege of whiteness, and
so guns carry these different, very historical emotional symbols. And
so for those reasons, gun owners the people who are
(20:04):
going to be impacted by any gun policy, not only
do they are not convinced by the prevention model, they
kind of feel exactly the opposite, that public health is
coming for their freedom and liberty, and so just calling
it a health frame it reinforces the stereotype that often
non gun owning liberals have, But it doesn't speak to
the people who are the people who're trying to convince
(20:26):
to kind of follow the rules that we're convincing. And
so part of the story for me is, if you
really want to address guns, you have to address what
it means to carry and own a gun. You have
to address the history of whiteness and relationship to gun ownership.
You have to do all these other factors. You have
to build out infrastructures and cities to make them safer.
And we've talked about two weeks ago here and so
(20:48):
in a way, just for me, the public health frame
is very limiting. It doesn't do any of those things.
And so a bunch of liberals, you know, like me,
cheer and say, finally the Surgeon General is doing a
report on this. But it's important to recognize that that
convinces people very often who are already convinced and to
really intervene here. Its guns are. They're a much bigger
(21:09):
problem than a public health from there a democracy problem,
they're an electoral problem, they're a regional problem, a racial problem,
and public health just doesn't do any of those things.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
When I hear the numbers kind of that were lifted
up in this reporting, which is that the rates of
firearm mortality for young people in America is nearly six
times the rate in Canada, nearly twenty three times the
rate in Australia, nearly seventy three times the rate in
the United Kingdom. The Surgeon General's Advisory said that the
(21:44):
last decade we have seen that unintentional gunshot wounds in
the cases of children and adolescents, around three quarters of
the firearms used were not stored and locked. We know
that the CDC has come out and said recently that
gun deaths is the number one cause of deaths for
children in this country. So when the veach murthy, doctor
(22:08):
Murphy says we need a multi pronged approach, can the
public health peace be a part of that multi health
prong or are you saying that no, it can't be
a part of it. It shouldn't be a part of it
at all, because it doesn't have the range essentially to
be able to address the very important points that you
(22:30):
brought up.
Speaker 3 (22:31):
Well, I of course think, of course there should be
a public health prong. Of course I went there to
be safety, and especially in the more preventable causes of
gun death like mass shootings are very hard to predict
and prevent, but like gun suicide, if somebody has a
gun available within fifty nine minutes of having a crisis,
(22:52):
the rates of gun suicide go up. Child shootings go
up if people don't lock their guns in safes, all
these kinds of things. So there are many things that
I think public health is useful for. So it's not
like I'm anti public health, but I can say that
even if we had universal public health tomorrow, we would
still have many of the same problems that public health
(23:14):
does not address because guns are not just a health problem.
That's kind of the argument of my book that guns
really are a democracy problem. And I say that because
the NA has used the gun issue to seat lifetime judges,
you know, thirty five year old judges who have never
heard a case in some of these appellate courts. They
(23:34):
use the gun issue to hijack our democracy. And so
while we were rallying importantly for public opinion shifting around
public health, the NRA was using the gun issue for
a totally different agenda, which was anti democracy. And so
while we were rallying to get to this point about
(23:55):
public health, their strategy was using the gun issue to
eat judges, to overturn elections, to overturn the will of
New York voters, and the Bruin case and the rule
of you know ore again. Virginia, Ohio, there's a long
list of voters want things in place about gun safety.
(24:15):
But because these judges are radicalized, they're overturning not just
gun laws, they're overturning women's reproductive rights and germandering and
voting and all these things. So guns were a tool
that was about power for the right, and the public
health model was like, let's just all get together and
save some lives, and that's great. I'm one hundred percent
(24:37):
before that. We have way too much gun injury and death.
But if you don't see the bigger agenda of what's happening,
you could have a warning on every gun in America
and you'd still have the bigger problem, which is that
while we were marching about gun safety, the other side
was using the gun issue to seat judges across the
country and Supreme Court judges and all these things. So
(25:00):
for me, the public health frame just doesn't go far enough,
and we have to as we embrace public help. I
just think we have to recognize the limitations because you're right,
all that data about us versus the world, it's unconsortable.
But it's also true that it's injury and death data
will not show you the bigger real problem for me
(25:20):
about guns, which is about, you know, you want to
understand what gun politics lead to. Read Project twenty twenty five.
That's that agenda. Read what people are saying about if
Trump loses the election, what they're going to do, all
these kind of things. Guns are not just a health problem,
They're a democracy problem. And to me, that's kind of
what all my research points toward.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
Does that make sense, Yeah, no, it makes total sense.
And I think that where my cynicism lies is that
I am no longer believing that people can be convinced
that guns are a real issue in this country. Like
I think that those of us who have won to serious, necessary,
(26:02):
aggressive gun reforms have just been met with a multi
billion dollar gun lobby, have been met with politicians that
we know are bought and paid for with their A
plus plus ratings from the NRA, And so I don't
necessarily believe that any convincing of the population which their
(26:25):
positions and their desire to see change is not going
to happen with politicians who's gerrymandered districts and a lobby
that has bought the federal bench. So I'm just like,
meet my cynicism with possibility right now, I guess is
the point is what I'm gonna ask Jonathan, because I
don't see it.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
Can you meet it with passive? Well, it's like really quiet.
Everybody just never happened, you know.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
Again, We've talked about this a lot. I think that
in a way we just didn't see what we were
up against in a way, in a way, public health
immediately jumped into the fore when nobody else did, which
is super super important, but it just it wasn't the
answer to the threat we were facing, right, which is
that the right recognized that for two centuries in this country,
(27:15):
only white men could carry guns, and that that was
a symbol of a right given to white men that
wasn't given to other people, and carrying a gun in
public meant whiteness.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
In a way.
Speaker 3 (27:26):
You know, from pre colonial America on down, that white
men could carry guns to suppress Native or Indian uprisings,
then slaves running away and all these kind of things.
The clan rode the night ride night night writers were
trying to disarm black people who had guns. Black codes
(27:48):
across the South. So there's a long history of what
it means to own and carry a gun, which ain't
about health. It's about power and privilege. And so yes,
guns are killing and entering way, way, way too many people,
but guns symbolize power for a lot of people, and
so calling it a public health problem is not going
(28:10):
to convince people if it's not also tied to electoral
reform and judge reform and anti jerimandering efforts and all
these things. And I guess I'm saying this because the
right recognized this. They recognize that they had like the
perfect symbol of what it meant to be a white man.
You know, nobody's going to take this away. The government's
(28:30):
not going to take this away, and they have amplified
this for decades now. And is calling it a public
health problem going to address that? Or is it going
to convince the people who are already convinced and marginalize
the people who are who don't agree with it. And
so the question is, I don't know for me that
polarization is the is the bigger problem. I'm not you know,
(28:50):
in the book, as you know, I talk about a
lot of ways I think we can address this that
aren't linked to public health, right making communities safer, creating
job and green programs, and all these kind of things,
like looking at the ways in which we can actually
make public space safer. That's always my answer. I'm a structuralist.
But you know, again, I hope this does good. I
(29:11):
really do hope this does good. I'm not rooting against it.
I'm just saying that I have a whole book of
counter argument evidence, which is not an answer to what
you're saying. But I just think that if we don't
address these bigger issues, we're going to just keep being
in the same feedback.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
Lop And I guess that that's where the cynicism is,
and that's where like the frustration, you know, it's like
my anger, my rage vacillates to cynicism, and like not apathy,
but just a lack of possibility that we are going
to see anything change in our lifetimes. I mean, when
you see a classroom of children, kindergarteners whose names were
(29:51):
just read out recently at the high school graduation that
the Newtown children should have been at, but we're murdered
in classroom and there's no change that happens in this country,
then like I feel like we've just lost right. And
I think then that's why so many people will then
turn around, they will pick up their own guns and
(30:12):
be like, well fuck it. If I can't beat them,
we can't beat sent into them. We can't show them
the you know, And maybe we just should have begged
those parents to show the bodies of their children, as
mam Ma Atill did with em at Till's body, right, Like,
maybe that's what we need because otherwise, you know, you
have the right calling folks crisis actors and just you know,
(30:33):
disregarding the lives of our children.
Speaker 3 (30:36):
Well, but also, let me just say that you need
a long term strategy, right In other words, people, you
need a long term strategy. If calling this a public
health crisis more will lead to judges, honestly will it'll
lead to judges. If it's enough of a wedge issue
that it'll lead to that, then there is a long
term strategy, right if exposing the violence, like you're saying,
(30:57):
we'll do this. But I just think the problem is
people act like public health is common sense, and that
is not the case for me. I think if it's
not tied to a long term strategy in the American
zero sum political situation, it's just got to lead to
reproducing the problems and so if public health is tied
to electoral format, anti gearmandering and all this kind of thing.
(31:20):
But the issue for me is when I talk to
public health people a lot of times I'm like, oh, no,
that's politics. We're a political and I'm like, dude, this
is a political issue, and so it's got to be
you know, if this leads to more political engagement that
is about the judiciary, then count me in one hundred percent.
It's more just when people start calling public health common sense,
(31:40):
that's I think we're being into trouble because it's not
common sense for the people you're trying to convince to
follow your rules.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
All right, my friend, we will leave it there today
and pick it up again next week.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
Always always appreciate.
Speaker 3 (31:55):
Week as a restaurant and movie week.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
So it's going to be a bunch of sad documentaries.
All right, Appreciate you, my friend.
Speaker 3 (32:05):
Bye, everybody.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
That is it for me today.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
Dear friends on Woke af as always, Power to the
people and to all the people.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
Power, get woke and stay woke as fuck.
Host
Danielle Moodie
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
Today’s Latest News In 4 Minutes. Updated Hourly.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.