August 26, 2024 • 22 mins
Morgan Parker is the author of You Get What You Pay For, and joined Danielle to discuss, among other things, the connection between mental health and Black liberation.
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Speaker 1 (00:11):
Good morning, peeps, and welcome to ok F Daily with
Meet your Girl Danielle Moody, recording from the Home Bunker, Folks,
I am back from the DNC and I will be
officially giving you my breakdown of the vice president acceptance speech.
(00:31):
Of my time at the DNC. It was wild, as
you can imagine. I am exhausted but still floating on
cloud nine from the last week. Regardless of what it is,
you know, dear friends, that the media is hell bent
on doing showing their entire and complete ass. The New
(00:53):
York Times has put out articles like joy is not
a strategy. You see other articles like Trump can win
on character, like it is some white supremacist, fucking gas
lighting bullshit that is happening. And I think that, you know,
in one way, I will say that I do think
that the media is actually doing y'all a good service
(01:17):
by showing you exactly who they are and what they
care about, and the fact that they want to be
feeding you a steady diet of fear of cruelty and
normalizing that in a way that makes you feel hopeless
and that you can't possibly perceive of anything outside of
this narrow, you know, oppressive box that they want you
(01:39):
to be in, and for them, that's what sells, right.
Hatred sells, misery sells, and anything outside of that doesn't
work for them. So they don't really know what to
do right now with Vice President Kamala Harrison, Tim Walls,
and so they just continue doing what they've been doing
over the last eight years, which is slighting all of us, right.
(02:02):
And so I'm just looking at, you know, where mainstream
corporate media has been, you know, and I see that
regardless of their attempts right now, the Vice President brought
in killer numbers for the DNC, well surpassed the RNC
on all four days of the convention. Her speech, I
(02:24):
think was rated twenty two percent higher in terms of
viewership than Donald Trump's ninety minute you know, stream of
consciousness ramblings. And so I think that more and more
people are tapping out of mainstream corporate media because they
are recognizing that they're not there to educate you, They
(02:46):
are not there to uplift you, They are not there
to connect the dots for you. They are there solely
for themselves and their shareholders and their CEOs. And you
will continue to see headlines that are just so contrary
to the reality that's happening on the ground, and recognize that,
you know, when we have heard things like the liberal media,
(03:07):
it's all bullshit, and it's all gaslighting, and it's all
distortion in order to just lean into the grievance politics
of the Republican Party. So I'm over it. Nonetheless. Coming
up on today's show is the author of an incredible
book entitled You Get What You Pay For, Morgan Parker,
(03:32):
and I just want to read you a bit about
what this book is about. In a collection of essays
as intimate as being in the room with Parker and
her therapists, Parker examines America's cultural history and relationship to
Black Americans through the ages. She touches on such topics
as the ubiquity of beauty standards that exclude black women,
(03:56):
the implication of Bill Cosby's fall from grace in a
culture predicate on acceptance through respectability, and the pitfalls of
visibility as seen through the mischaracterizations of Serena Williams as
alternately iconic and too ambitious. With piercing wit and incisive observations,
You Get What You Pay For is ultimately a portal
(04:18):
into a deeper examination of racial consciousness and its effects
on mental well being in America. Today, Morgan and I
get into a fantastic conversation that I hope all of
you will enjoy, and in the episode notes you can
go ahead and purchase her book, which is out now, folks.
(04:42):
I am very happy to welcome to OKF Daily author
Morgan Parker, whose new book, You Get What You Pay
For is a laugh out loud memoir in essays that
charts a devastatingly candid course through a story both of
you unique and universal about liberation and asking the question
(05:04):
with regard to reparations and whether or not black women,
frankly should be our deserving of free mental health care.
Morgan set it up for us, this kind of question
that you're posing through your series of essays. We all
know and I can, you know, bring up just what
is happening right now in terms of what just transpired
(05:26):
with the Olympics and Jordan Chiles and the bronze medal contention.
We can see what has happened with Sonya Massey and
being killed in her home, like there are so many
instances at which we know that black women's mental health
is one weaponized against them and is taxed on a
(05:46):
regular basis, not just in this country but globally. So
talk to us about your thoughts and the thought provoking
question that you're bringing up in your book.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Yeah, I mean, for me, it really started with my
own own journey and after years of therapy, kind of
looking backward in my life and thinking about all the
things that I had internalized as my fault that I
was starting to see very clearly had its roots in
white supremacists thinking and the ways that living in and
(06:21):
among a white supremacist focused world has really kind of
entered my psyche and changed the way I felt about myself.
And in kind of discovering these things and just really
discovering my own freedom to be, you know, my first
thought was like, Wow, what if we all could have that?
What if we all could see for ourselves, how much
(06:44):
of what we punish ourselves for is not on us,
you know what I mean? And if we could all
if we had you know, the time and space and
support to actually acknowledge the toll that these things are
taking and the various outside forces that are responsible for
(07:04):
a lot of our pain instead of you know, swallowing
it and internalizing it and turning it into something that
we have to change for ourselves or about ourselves, and
just really thinking about all the ways that these symptoms
really show up in our lives. You know, for me,
it's a lot of that self hatred and internalized struggle,
(07:25):
but for a lot of folks it can manifest in addiction,
and it can manifest in just like dangerous behaviors. I mean,
people could get locked up for everything that's rooted in
this poisonous thinking, you know, So thinking about all the
widespread effects, then thinking, okay, what if this was a solve,
(07:47):
What if this was a sort of reparations for us,
this sort of like internalized healing. What kind of empires
of our pain would fall? How many of us would
not be in prison, any of us would love ourselves more,
be more in love, make more art, All the possibilities
that that could open. And it really was an exciting
(08:10):
question to ask, not only on the personal level, but
really on this level of taking the appropriate perpetrators to
task and really saying what hurts and not cloaking the
issues in jargon or data or you know, figures about
where people's families are from and how much money and
(08:31):
all this stuff, Like, what if it was really directed
at the source of the problem?
Speaker 1 (08:35):
I wonder, because I love the idea and the concept
of reparations in the form of healing what was purposefully broken? However,
I then think about the ways that we have been
broken throughout generations have been intentional. The whole idea around
reparations would be a concession by the empire, by white supremacists, capitalists,
(09:03):
powers that be to acknowledge a wrongdoing. Right, Like, there
is still something about the idea that our collective healing
is still connected to the acknowledgment of the causation of
pain in the first place. And so I feel like,
to some extent, then that's why we get stuck in
(09:25):
doing our own work, because we're still being forced to
rely on other people's acknowledgment in order for us to
be able to move forward. So how do you grapple
with that? How do we grapple with that very real
understanding of kind of where we are and where we've
been exactly?
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Yeah, I mean, I think that's a real tension in
the arguments in the book. You know, I did a
lot of research, and some of this is in the
book of you know, black psychiatrists and psychologists from you know,
even from the fifties and sixties, and the way that
they're talking about the type of mental health care that
(10:04):
black people need specifically, and they're talking about this tension
between the patient is in the office doing this work,
but then they're going out into an unchanged world. If
we can change, but what good does it do if
the outside world doesn't change? And I think that is
(10:26):
it's such a valid point and it's something that I
wanted to put out there as like, you know, an
indictment for all of us. But it's also something that
I get hung up on when I feel and makes
me feel a little bit helpless, which is scary, you know,
because that's the thing about healing is that we're in
charge of it. And so that I think, yeah, there's
(10:47):
a little bit of contention there because we want to
be able to do our own work and feel that
we're making progress. But as you said, part of that
is this acknowledgment culturally. My answer is just the more
of us that are on that same page, you know
what I mean, because they're not even pressured to.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
Be on that page.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
But if I can, you know, if first of all,
we don't even really talk about this stuff amongst us enough,
you know what I mean? Like that's still not a norm.
There's still so much stigma. So if we could get
on the same page about it, then perhaps there could
be movement in the other direction in terms of this
is what we need and we all understand that.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
I want to ask this because while I think that
as a whole there is still very much a stigma
around accessing mental health care, I feel like when I'm
on you know and forgive me, but when I'm on TikTok,
I feel like there are a lot of young Black
(11:53):
women in particular who are becoming and have become very
vocal on the need for mental health and self care
and not self care just in the bubble bath sense,
which I love, right, but I mean in the who
is on your team to help you navigate society in
(12:13):
a way that allows you to navigate it as a
whole person. Right? And So I wonder, how do you
see younger generations of Black women accessing the kinds of
mental health that you are talking about? And are there
enough in this generation Z to forge the change that
(12:37):
our ancestors have been calling for since the beginning of
time since the acknowledgment of the difference between you know,
quote unquote feminism and black feminism, right repro justice versus
reproductive health care, Like, is there something that you are
seeing and hearing in this younger, more articulate generation, and
(12:58):
I mean articulate in the way that they're able to
verbalize their pain, their trauma, and how society has played
a part in that.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
I do see it becoming more of a normal or
really that we're claiming a lot more language around it.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
You know.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
That's what I see is that we're finding our ways
of discussing these things. But I've never worried about Black
women finding that, you know what I mean. And it's
exciting to see the different ways that a younger generation
of Black women has done this, but we've always been
at the forefront of trying to navigate this internal healing. Yes,
(13:37):
as you said, it's exciting to see the different way
modes of access that they have and the different levels
of collectivity. I think is what's really exciting. But I
also wish that it was a more holistic community thing,
you know, intergenerational, And on one hand, I want this
(13:57):
kind of broader umbrella conversation about mental health in the
black community. But I also do see which is really
encouraging a specific focus on black women's mental health care
versus black men. I do think all of that is important.
I think what's missing really is just that political piece
(14:20):
of the whole of like what are the mental health
care needs of the African American community in America?
Speaker 3 (14:27):
You know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (14:28):
Because I do love the way that we're able to
talk about how black women and black men might need
a different kind of conversation for example. I think that's
really improved a lot. And so for me, the question
is really what do we as you know, Black American
citizens want the future to look like for us as
(14:48):
a whole.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
Do you foresee us being able to though navigate that
very real reality and space again with out white compliance?
Is there a way? Because again I'm just like I'm
exhausted thinking about it. If I got it, if I
(15:09):
have to, you know what I'm saying, Like, if I
have to rely on my healing being contingent upon the
acknowledgment that you've caused, You've inflicted generations of pain that
sources through you know, my DNA on a regular basis,
like if I'm waiting for that, then I feel like
(15:30):
my healing again, like I said at the top, is
going to be stuck. So is it contingent upon.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
No, then okay, I think the really the acknowledgment is personal,
you know what I mean, because I think that so
many of us can't acknowledge that at face value day
to day because it's just like, you know, we have
to live in this world. So for me, the first
step was always this personal acknowledgment in the ways that
(15:58):
white supremacy has affected my psychology. And of course the
ultimate political goal and aim for us would be for
the white powers that be to acknowledge that. But I
think of utmost and primary importance is us acknowledging that
on not only a holistic level, but also a personal
(16:21):
level and vice versa, if that makes sense, because I
think that's where the healing begins, and the reparations idea
that is contingent, you know what I mean. That's really
like putting it outward and putting it on the government. Really,
for me, it's the question of rethinking what reparations is
(16:41):
and how far any kind of reparation can get us.
So for me, it's a question of how far can
a check get us versus how far mental healthcare can
get us, But not to say that our healing is
wholly contingent upon that. It's just a matter of trying
(17:02):
to utilize the resources that the government has toward our healing.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
You know, I find that sometimes we also can't get
to where we want to go because we don't have
a clear enough vision of what that healing looks like.
So can you talk to us about and that obviously, right,
everybody has a different journey, has a different path. But
(17:29):
I do think that there is some collectiveness around ultimately
what we desire as a black community, right Like, when
we say that what we aspire for liberation, what does
that liberation actually look like? And I feel like most recently, God,
and I can't remember, but I can't remember the person's name,
(17:52):
and maybe you know, but it was like the difference
between the freedom from and the freedom too, and us
that kind of statement is that there are levels and
layers to the liberation, and being free from something doesn't
necessarily equate to you being free to do something. So
the ultimate goal is for liberation is the freedom too,
(18:15):
not just the freedom from? And so I wonder even
though all of our paths are different. What do you
see as the collective desire for the community? And when
I say community, I'm also talking about Black women specifically
and then Black people at large.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
Yeah, I mean the way that I kind of phrased
it in the book was the freedom to think for ourselves,
you know, with our own minds. So it's really it's
freedom from the white supremacy in our psychology in order
to have the freedom to be my most authentic self
and think my own authentic thoughts, you know, to know
(18:56):
that my thoughts are mine, my actions are driven by me.
Speaker 3 (19:01):
I think that's.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
Really what it is because so much of and for
Black women specifically, I think so much of our behavior
and dialogue, often in public spaces, is and must be
often for protection for a myriad of reasons, but is
of a reactionary you know, and performative in so many ways.
(19:22):
And I love the idea of imagining a self that
is like unmolested by you know what I mean, like
why it's supremacist motivations that I've internalized via I mean,
even like the law, you know, like things that are
like that's kind of subconscious language of things.
Speaker 3 (19:44):
If I could get that out of my head? What
could I dream up? You know?
Speaker 2 (19:48):
So for us, I think it's that ability to just
clear our heads and think for ourselves.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
Yeah, I think that that's right.
Speaker 3 (19:57):
You know.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
I so appreciate your right. It shouldn't be a provocative question, right,
but it is one that is provocative in your book.
And so the last question that I have for you,
Morgan is like, what do you hope that people get
from your book? You get what you pay for. What
do you hope that they are left with?
Speaker 3 (20:15):
I hope that people pay more attention to other people.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
I hope that my readers come away with it eager
to look deeper at others and seek a better understanding
of where folks are coming from and what has influenced them.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
I think so much.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
Of I was writing a lot out of a frustration
of folks having an idea of what a black woman's
life is like having a general idea or even like
some data about single black women or whatever. And I
think sometimes like the human really gets lost, and so
you know, I really didn't think that that would be
(20:57):
the point of the book, but as I was kind
of finishing it up, it really felt like a call
to just pay more attention to the ins and outs
and the daily trials that we.
Speaker 3 (21:08):
All go through.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
And I think those are the things, especially when you
know black people's existence is often just like summed up
in these like moments of when a black person dies,
you know what I mean, And otherwise it's just like
you know, I don't know, and I think, yeah, it's
the little stuff that adds up. And in the same way,
it's the little stuff that could add up to create big,
(21:33):
big change. So that's really what I hope my readers
take away is this idea that the little bits matter,
the little moments matter, and seeing other people for real,
for real matters a lot.
Speaker 3 (21:46):
You know. Appreciate you Morgan.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
Thank you so much for making the time to join
ok F and thank you so much for this book.
It is you get what you pay for, and you
are the author of so many other incredible books as well,
so folks, you should get into it. Thank you so much,
really appreciate you.
Speaker 3 (22:06):
Thank you Bye.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
That is it for me today, dear friends on wokef
as always, Power to the people and to all the people. Power,
get woke and stay woke as fuck.
Good morning, peeps, and welcome to ok F Daily with
Meet your Girl Danielle Moody, recording from the Home Bunker, Folks,
I am back from the DNC and I will be
officially giving you my breakdown of the vice president acceptance speech.
(00:31):
Of my time at the DNC. It was wild, as
you can imagine. I am exhausted but still floating on
cloud nine from the last week. Regardless of what it is,
you know, dear friends, that the media is hell bent
on doing showing their entire and complete ass. The New
(00:53):
York Times has put out articles like joy is not
a strategy. You see other articles like Trump can win
on character, like it is some white supremacist, fucking gas
lighting bullshit that is happening. And I think that, you know,
in one way, I will say that I do think
that the media is actually doing y'all a good service
(01:17):
by showing you exactly who they are and what they
care about, and the fact that they want to be
feeding you a steady diet of fear of cruelty and
normalizing that in a way that makes you feel hopeless
and that you can't possibly perceive of anything outside of
this narrow, you know, oppressive box that they want you
(01:39):
to be in, and for them, that's what sells, right.
Hatred sells, misery sells, and anything outside of that doesn't
work for them. So they don't really know what to
do right now with Vice President Kamala Harrison, Tim Walls,
and so they just continue doing what they've been doing
over the last eight years, which is slighting all of us, right.
(02:02):
And so I'm just looking at, you know, where mainstream
corporate media has been, you know, and I see that
regardless of their attempts right now, the Vice President brought
in killer numbers for the DNC, well surpassed the RNC
on all four days of the convention. Her speech, I
(02:24):
think was rated twenty two percent higher in terms of
viewership than Donald Trump's ninety minute you know, stream of
consciousness ramblings. And so I think that more and more
people are tapping out of mainstream corporate media because they
are recognizing that they're not there to educate you, They
(02:46):
are not there to uplift you, They are not there
to connect the dots for you. They are there solely
for themselves and their shareholders and their CEOs. And you
will continue to see headlines that are just so contrary
to the reality that's happening on the ground, and recognize that,
you know, when we have heard things like the liberal media,
(03:07):
it's all bullshit, and it's all gaslighting, and it's all
distortion in order to just lean into the grievance politics
of the Republican Party. So I'm over it. Nonetheless. Coming
up on today's show is the author of an incredible
book entitled You Get What You Pay For, Morgan Parker,
(03:32):
and I just want to read you a bit about
what this book is about. In a collection of essays
as intimate as being in the room with Parker and
her therapists, Parker examines America's cultural history and relationship to
Black Americans through the ages. She touches on such topics
as the ubiquity of beauty standards that exclude black women,
(03:56):
the implication of Bill Cosby's fall from grace in a
culture predicate on acceptance through respectability, and the pitfalls of
visibility as seen through the mischaracterizations of Serena Williams as
alternately iconic and too ambitious. With piercing wit and incisive observations,
You Get What You Pay For is ultimately a portal
(04:18):
into a deeper examination of racial consciousness and its effects
on mental well being in America. Today, Morgan and I
get into a fantastic conversation that I hope all of
you will enjoy, and in the episode notes you can
go ahead and purchase her book, which is out now, folks.
(04:42):
I am very happy to welcome to OKF Daily author
Morgan Parker, whose new book, You Get What You Pay
For is a laugh out loud memoir in essays that
charts a devastatingly candid course through a story both of
you unique and universal about liberation and asking the question
(05:04):
with regard to reparations and whether or not black women,
frankly should be our deserving of free mental health care.
Morgan set it up for us, this kind of question
that you're posing through your series of essays. We all
know and I can, you know, bring up just what
is happening right now in terms of what just transpired
(05:26):
with the Olympics and Jordan Chiles and the bronze medal contention.
We can see what has happened with Sonya Massey and
being killed in her home, like there are so many
instances at which we know that black women's mental health
is one weaponized against them and is taxed on a
(05:46):
regular basis, not just in this country but globally. So
talk to us about your thoughts and the thought provoking
question that you're bringing up in your book.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Yeah, I mean, for me, it really started with my
own own journey and after years of therapy, kind of
looking backward in my life and thinking about all the
things that I had internalized as my fault that I
was starting to see very clearly had its roots in
white supremacists thinking and the ways that living in and
(06:21):
among a white supremacist focused world has really kind of
entered my psyche and changed the way I felt about myself.
And in kind of discovering these things and just really
discovering my own freedom to be, you know, my first
thought was like, Wow, what if we all could have that?
What if we all could see for ourselves, how much
(06:44):
of what we punish ourselves for is not on us,
you know what I mean? And if we could all
if we had you know, the time and space and
support to actually acknowledge the toll that these things are
taking and the various outside forces that are responsible for
(07:04):
a lot of our pain instead of you know, swallowing
it and internalizing it and turning it into something that
we have to change for ourselves or about ourselves, and
just really thinking about all the ways that these symptoms
really show up in our lives. You know, for me,
it's a lot of that self hatred and internalized struggle,
(07:25):
but for a lot of folks it can manifest in addiction,
and it can manifest in just like dangerous behaviors. I mean,
people could get locked up for everything that's rooted in
this poisonous thinking, you know, So thinking about all the
widespread effects, then thinking, okay, what if this was a solve,
(07:47):
What if this was a sort of reparations for us,
this sort of like internalized healing. What kind of empires
of our pain would fall? How many of us would
not be in prison, any of us would love ourselves more,
be more in love, make more art, All the possibilities
that that could open. And it really was an exciting
(08:10):
question to ask, not only on the personal level, but
really on this level of taking the appropriate perpetrators to
task and really saying what hurts and not cloaking the
issues in jargon or data or you know, figures about
where people's families are from and how much money and
(08:31):
all this stuff, Like, what if it was really directed
at the source of the problem?
Speaker 1 (08:35):
I wonder, because I love the idea and the concept
of reparations in the form of healing what was purposefully broken? However,
I then think about the ways that we have been
broken throughout generations have been intentional. The whole idea around
reparations would be a concession by the empire, by white supremacists, capitalists,
(09:03):
powers that be to acknowledge a wrongdoing. Right, Like, there
is still something about the idea that our collective healing
is still connected to the acknowledgment of the causation of
pain in the first place. And so I feel like,
to some extent, then that's why we get stuck in
(09:25):
doing our own work, because we're still being forced to
rely on other people's acknowledgment in order for us to
be able to move forward. So how do you grapple
with that? How do we grapple with that very real
understanding of kind of where we are and where we've
been exactly?
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Yeah, I mean, I think that's a real tension in
the arguments in the book. You know, I did a
lot of research, and some of this is in the
book of you know, black psychiatrists and psychologists from you know,
even from the fifties and sixties, and the way that
they're talking about the type of mental health care that
(10:04):
black people need specifically, and they're talking about this tension
between the patient is in the office doing this work,
but then they're going out into an unchanged world. If
we can change, but what good does it do if
the outside world doesn't change? And I think that is
(10:26):
it's such a valid point and it's something that I
wanted to put out there as like, you know, an
indictment for all of us. But it's also something that
I get hung up on when I feel and makes
me feel a little bit helpless, which is scary, you know,
because that's the thing about healing is that we're in
charge of it. And so that I think, yeah, there's
(10:47):
a little bit of contention there because we want to
be able to do our own work and feel that
we're making progress. But as you said, part of that
is this acknowledgment culturally. My answer is just the more
of us that are on that same page, you know
what I mean, because they're not even pressured to.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
Be on that page.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
But if I can, you know, if first of all,
we don't even really talk about this stuff amongst us enough,
you know what I mean? Like that's still not a norm.
There's still so much stigma. So if we could get
on the same page about it, then perhaps there could
be movement in the other direction in terms of this
is what we need and we all understand that.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
I want to ask this because while I think that
as a whole there is still very much a stigma
around accessing mental health care, I feel like when I'm
on you know and forgive me, but when I'm on TikTok,
I feel like there are a lot of young Black
(11:53):
women in particular who are becoming and have become very
vocal on the need for mental health and self care
and not self care just in the bubble bath sense,
which I love, right, but I mean in the who
is on your team to help you navigate society in
(12:13):
a way that allows you to navigate it as a
whole person. Right? And So I wonder, how do you
see younger generations of Black women accessing the kinds of
mental health that you are talking about? And are there
enough in this generation Z to forge the change that
(12:37):
our ancestors have been calling for since the beginning of
time since the acknowledgment of the difference between you know,
quote unquote feminism and black feminism, right repro justice versus
reproductive health care, Like, is there something that you are
seeing and hearing in this younger, more articulate generation, and
(12:58):
I mean articulate in the way that they're able to
verbalize their pain, their trauma, and how society has played
a part in that.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
I do see it becoming more of a normal or
really that we're claiming a lot more language around it.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
You know.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
That's what I see is that we're finding our ways
of discussing these things. But I've never worried about Black
women finding that, you know what I mean. And it's
exciting to see the different ways that a younger generation
of Black women has done this, but we've always been
at the forefront of trying to navigate this internal healing. Yes,
(13:37):
as you said, it's exciting to see the different way
modes of access that they have and the different levels
of collectivity. I think is what's really exciting. But I
also wish that it was a more holistic community thing,
you know, intergenerational, And on one hand, I want this
(13:57):
kind of broader umbrella conversation about mental health in the
black community. But I also do see which is really
encouraging a specific focus on black women's mental health care
versus black men. I do think all of that is important.
I think what's missing really is just that political piece
(14:20):
of the whole of like what are the mental health
care needs of the African American community in America?
Speaker 3 (14:27):
You know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (14:28):
Because I do love the way that we're able to
talk about how black women and black men might need
a different kind of conversation for example. I think that's
really improved a lot. And so for me, the question
is really what do we as you know, Black American
citizens want the future to look like for us as
(14:48):
a whole.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
Do you foresee us being able to though navigate that
very real reality and space again with out white compliance?
Is there a way? Because again I'm just like I'm
exhausted thinking about it. If I got it, if I
(15:09):
have to, you know what I'm saying, Like, if I
have to rely on my healing being contingent upon the
acknowledgment that you've caused, You've inflicted generations of pain that
sources through you know, my DNA on a regular basis,
like if I'm waiting for that, then I feel like
(15:30):
my healing again, like I said at the top, is
going to be stuck. So is it contingent upon.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
No, then okay, I think the really the acknowledgment is personal,
you know what I mean, because I think that so
many of us can't acknowledge that at face value day
to day because it's just like, you know, we have
to live in this world. So for me, the first
step was always this personal acknowledgment in the ways that
(15:58):
white supremacy has affected my psychology. And of course the
ultimate political goal and aim for us would be for
the white powers that be to acknowledge that. But I
think of utmost and primary importance is us acknowledging that
on not only a holistic level, but also a personal
(16:21):
level and vice versa, if that makes sense, because I
think that's where the healing begins, and the reparations idea
that is contingent, you know what I mean. That's really
like putting it outward and putting it on the government. Really,
for me, it's the question of rethinking what reparations is
(16:41):
and how far any kind of reparation can get us.
So for me, it's a question of how far can
a check get us versus how far mental healthcare can
get us, But not to say that our healing is
wholly contingent upon that. It's just a matter of trying
(17:02):
to utilize the resources that the government has toward our healing.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
You know, I find that sometimes we also can't get
to where we want to go because we don't have
a clear enough vision of what that healing looks like.
So can you talk to us about and that obviously, right,
everybody has a different journey, has a different path. But
(17:29):
I do think that there is some collectiveness around ultimately
what we desire as a black community, right Like, when
we say that what we aspire for liberation, what does
that liberation actually look like? And I feel like most recently, God,
and I can't remember, but I can't remember the person's name,
(17:52):
and maybe you know, but it was like the difference
between the freedom from and the freedom too, and us
that kind of statement is that there are levels and
layers to the liberation, and being free from something doesn't
necessarily equate to you being free to do something. So
the ultimate goal is for liberation is the freedom too,
(18:15):
not just the freedom from? And so I wonder even
though all of our paths are different. What do you
see as the collective desire for the community? And when
I say community, I'm also talking about Black women specifically
and then Black people at large.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
Yeah, I mean the way that I kind of phrased
it in the book was the freedom to think for ourselves,
you know, with our own minds. So it's really it's
freedom from the white supremacy in our psychology in order
to have the freedom to be my most authentic self
and think my own authentic thoughts, you know, to know
(18:56):
that my thoughts are mine, my actions are driven by me.
Speaker 3 (19:01):
I think that's.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
Really what it is because so much of and for
Black women specifically, I think so much of our behavior
and dialogue, often in public spaces, is and must be
often for protection for a myriad of reasons, but is
of a reactionary you know, and performative in so many ways.
(19:22):
And I love the idea of imagining a self that
is like unmolested by you know what I mean, like
why it's supremacist motivations that I've internalized via I mean,
even like the law, you know, like things that are
like that's kind of subconscious language of things.
Speaker 3 (19:44):
If I could get that out of my head? What
could I dream up? You know?
Speaker 2 (19:48):
So for us, I think it's that ability to just
clear our heads and think for ourselves.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
Yeah, I think that that's right.
Speaker 3 (19:57):
You know.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
I so appreciate your right. It shouldn't be a provocative question, right,
but it is one that is provocative in your book.
And so the last question that I have for you,
Morgan is like, what do you hope that people get
from your book? You get what you pay for. What
do you hope that they are left with?
Speaker 3 (20:15):
I hope that people pay more attention to other people.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
I hope that my readers come away with it eager
to look deeper at others and seek a better understanding
of where folks are coming from and what has influenced them.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
I think so much.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
Of I was writing a lot out of a frustration
of folks having an idea of what a black woman's
life is like having a general idea or even like
some data about single black women or whatever. And I
think sometimes like the human really gets lost, and so
you know, I really didn't think that that would be
(20:57):
the point of the book, but as I was kind
of finishing it up, it really felt like a call
to just pay more attention to the ins and outs
and the daily trials that we.
Speaker 3 (21:08):
All go through.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
And I think those are the things, especially when you
know black people's existence is often just like summed up
in these like moments of when a black person dies,
you know what I mean, And otherwise it's just like
you know, I don't know, and I think, yeah, it's
the little stuff that adds up. And in the same way,
it's the little stuff that could add up to create big,
(21:33):
big change. So that's really what I hope my readers
take away is this idea that the little bits matter,
the little moments matter, and seeing other people for real,
for real matters a lot.
Speaker 3 (21:46):
You know. Appreciate you Morgan.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
Thank you so much for making the time to join
ok F and thank you so much for this book.
It is you get what you pay for, and you
are the author of so many other incredible books as well,
so folks, you should get into it. Thank you so much,
really appreciate you.
Speaker 3 (22:06):
Thank you Bye.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
That is it for me today, dear friends on wokef
as always, Power to the people and to all the people. Power,
get woke and stay woke as fuck.
Host
Danielle Moodie
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