Connie Britton

Connie Britton is an award-winning actress who’s known for fighting not just for the integrity of the women she plays on screen, but also for the rights and empowerment of women around the world. Connie joins Sophia on the podcast today to talk about knowing when a choice feels right even when it’s scary, her role in Friday Night Lights and how this contributed to people valuing the female voice more, her number one rule when it comes to the characters she plays, and so much more!

Executive Producers: Sophia Bush & Rabbit Grin Productions

Associate Producer: Samantha Skelton & Mica Sangiacomo 

Editor: Josh Windisch

Artwork by the Hoodzpah Sisters

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome back to work in Progress.
Today's guest is an absolutely phenomenal actor, multi time Emmy
and Golden Globe nominee. You might recognize her best from

(00:22):
her iconic role as Tammy Taylor and Friday Night Lights,
either that or her performance as Nicki Favor on Spin City,
or her roles on twenty four The West Wing, Dirty
John Promising a Woman Bombshaw, or most recently, as Nicole
Moss Boker on HBO's hit show The White Lotus. Yes,
Ladies and Gentlemen, Today's guest is Connie Britton. Connie is

(00:46):
an award winning actress who's known for fighting not just
for the integrity of the women she plays on screen,
but also for the rights and empowerment of women around
the world. She has an outspoken advocate for a variety
of causes and has written more than her fair share
of intelligently worded essays to advance them. I am so
excited to ask her about her career, her fan base,
the ideology that sustains her, and the power of speaking out,

(01:10):
and to maybe tell a personal story or two without
further ado. My friend and icon Connie Britain This is

(01:30):
actually going to be really fun because one of the
things I really like to do with people. You know,
anyone I sit down across from, be it in person
or digitally, is known for something, is doing something cool
in the world. You know, in this present moment has
something going on, like a book is coming out or
a show whatever, And and I always like to go

(01:53):
back to figure out how people got to be cool
and creative and inspiring. And I'm like, I know why
you're the way you are, but I have to tell
people who don't know why you're here the way you are,
which feels really fun. I'm going to ask you some questions.
I know the answers too, but that the audience doesn't.
And I'm curious to see what I learned that I

(02:16):
don't even know that I don't know. Will it be
like that first time that we met at the White
House Correspondence dinner. Is that what it's going to be like? Well,
that night ended with a lot of champagne and a
lot of laughter outside. We mean, I just love being
one of the kids who always winds up in the
corner at a party, because like people who wind up

(02:38):
in the corner or the corner of the patio. You're like,
you're my people, and we did that, and so yes,
we're in our own little corner right now. But it's
very early in the morning, so we have definitely not
had a cocktail or four. No, we're on our coffee.
That's the only difference for our coffees with our ladies
on them. I love our ladies. Um for the folks

(02:59):
at home, the coffees with the ladies that we're talking about.
Connie and I have the same mug. It has a
bunch of iconic political ladies, Democratic leaders for justice on it,
and it's it's pretty and Stacy and Elizabeth and Nancy
and Nancy and next to Stacy, right, I love them.

(03:20):
So anyway, coffee with the ladies, and and you're gonna
have coll ladies as everyone. I'm so proud of all
these ladies. But keep so proud of all these ladies,
trudge uphill. It's been my god, and it is such
an interesting thing. I do find that there's parallels I
think for so many of us, you know, in the

(03:41):
world as ladies. Most of the country agrees on infrastructure,
wants the plan, wants you know, rights for people, and
yet they're fighting with these like very small it's a
very small group of absurdly powerful people who don't want progress.
I feel like I have felt that way in many,

(04:01):
many times in my life. I know I had this
like really weird realization recently the other day. It was
very like dumbfounding when I was like, oh, of our
country is white supremacist, and I'm like, that's really like

(04:24):
a heavy thing to realize. And it's interesting when you
unpack that, because of course that's such a loaded term,
but what it simply means is what you just said,
which is resistant to progress, because of course we live
in a country that has been built around white power

(04:47):
and patriarchy, and so that is the system that people
who are trying to uphold, who are so resistant to
the point of really subverting their own values, you know.
And so that was a really like heavy thing to
realize because also I know a lot of people like that,

(05:10):
and they would certainly not think of themselves that way.
It's a really hard struggle, you know. That's one of
the things I find really fascinating is when you get
out of what is a very it's an agitational phrase, right,
it's authentic, it's honest, why supremacy is simply a fact

(05:31):
um that there are phrases that have become very agitational,
and that agitation can spur us toward progress or or
really towards self inquiry. And you know, that was the
point of Black Lives Matter becoming an action call. That
was the point. It's the point of so many things
we're discussing. The patriarchy is becoming agitational as well. And

(05:52):
I think it's really interesting once you give people permission
to calm down from what you just said and then
to really ask, oh, what systems do I uphold that
actually uphold a disparate white supremacist patriarchy? What what what

(06:14):
do I lean into? Because it's quote the way it
is that continues this and and I think it's really interesting.
There's there's kind of an idea in the world that
we have a lot of these conversations because you know,
we're coastal liberals in Hollywood, and I forgot we are coastal.
Yeah yeah, oh yeah, And and so many people don't

(06:36):
take into account where you're from, where you've lived, the
people that you know, and you and I have some
very similar portions of our career. Where we've lived in
the South. We've lived in very red states and counties.
We we have loved those places and want better for

(06:56):
those people as much as we want better for the
people who you know, quote unquote think like us. And
I I wonder if, as you're reckoning with this now,
if you look back to growing up, I mean, I
know you were born in Massachusetts, but then you moved
to Virginia and you were little m do you feel influenced?

(07:16):
Do you feel like you understand how to advocate perhaps
differently because of where and how you grew up? You know,
I think maybe so, And because my family was Republicans primarily,
but also like really goodhearted, like value driven people, and

(07:40):
as were most of the people that I grew up with,
And so I think and I that was that's an
interesting term, would you say? Agitational? Very interesting term? And
you're right, like, I'm not sure. Maybe there's a better
there's a better term for it, or maybe we don't
want to like have to just sort of like name that.

(08:01):
But on my hardest days, that is how I see it.
When you're trying to come to terms with the divide
in our country that seems so insurmountable in moments but
I really have, I think, a very good understanding of
people who have all different belief systems and who are

(08:22):
good people. And I even think that I might understand
a little bit about what drives them to hold on
so tightly two the thing that they know that has
been passed down to them that they feel so desperately
that they need to maintain. I think the simplest way
to say it is that I think I really have

(08:43):
empathy for people who think in all different ways. And
it's because of where I grew up and how my
and who my my family thinks, and the places that
I've loved that are traditionally you know. I love Austin,
I love Texas so much. I love Tennessee so much,
you know, And those are places that there are people

(09:06):
there with a lot of conservative values. And so I've
been fortunate to be able to sit down and listen
and hear what those people are saying and understand that
those are full hearted, real people who are just very
human in their attachment to what they know. And I

(09:27):
think that's very fundamentally human and I get it. I
understand that that's a pause the framing of understanding that
it is fundamentally human to be attached to what you know.
Mm hmm. That's a big deal because it it gives

(09:47):
you just enough space to say, oh, you're you're really
attached to something. Okay. We can be attached to things
that harm us, we can be attached to things that
we do even know our toxic. We can be attached
to things that are really beautiful and complicated. And I

(10:08):
think if we can approach each other, as you said,
with that kind of empathy, it gives you space to
see someone and, by the way, maybe help them unpack something,
because we've all had to unpack things. I mean, I
think back to when I started working in our industry
the early two thousands and how cool it was then

(10:34):
if the guys said, oh, you're cool, You're not like
the other girls, and you'd go, yeah, man, I'm cool chick.
And now I go, oh, my god, the level of
internalized misogyny to take that as a compliment, My god, right, Like,
I've had to unpack that. I didn't even see the
insult in it. I was so I was just so

(10:58):
in it. We didn't have the language and the tools
and the knowledge and the books and the things and
the communication that we have now and and yeah, I
can think back to being twenty and really thinking that
was a compliment and that's the thing I needed to unpack.
But I was attached to being different and cool and
low maintenance, and like, what the fund does that even mean?

(11:22):
I know. And also it's like you were doing that.
You were projecting on yourself this very male centric perspective,
you know, and I didn't even know it, and you were,
you were taking that on And that's what I That's
what I'm talking about, Like, we are handed down so much,

(11:43):
and it is very hard to differentiate what you have
been handed down, what you have been given, what has
been just structured for you and imparted into you, versus
who you really are. It's almost indiscernible, you know, that
nature nurture thing, I think. And so that's really a

(12:05):
lot of the work here. And that's no small feat.
You know, when we're looking at what's happening in the
country and trying to like find find connecting points. That's
a pretty strong connecting point, is that our human nature
is very saddled with centuries of tradition and story and trauma,

(12:34):
and so to try to even discern what of that
is yours and what of that is useful versus what
of that needs to go? Is the hardest work we
can ever do in our lives. And let's be honest,
most most people aren't going to want to try to
do that or even have the tools to do that. Yeah,
how are you supposed to do the biggest job that

(12:58):
exists at this inflection point in human history? While we
also have jobs and are trying to pay for our
health care and fix like, there's so much going on exactly,
so many people are are working so hard just to survive.
But the thing that you said about, you know what
gets handed down. I think about this kind of jumbled

(13:22):
mess of what can be really beautiful what we are,
as you said, attached to you know, those those semblances
of belonging in our memories and our traditions. And I
am actually really curious how those things look to you now,
you know, when you look at little Connie because the move,

(13:45):
you know, from New England to the South, do you
feel like a New England or do you feel like
a Southerner? Do you feel like a jumble of all
the things? I feel like a Southerner. Isn't that funny.
I don't know. I feel like a Southerner. I think
because is we moved to Virginia when I was seven.
I was born in Massachusetts because um my parents were

(14:07):
both at school there, and my mom actually was northern,
she was from Connecticut. My dad mostly grew up in Florida, UM,
but a lot of his family was from Tennessee, so
he had Southern roots. But when we moved to Virginia,
I loved it. I that's where I and that's where
I grew into the beginnings of who I am, and

(14:32):
I felt very at home there, and I went to
school in the north. I went, you know, up north
to New Hampshire for college, and then I couldn't wait
to get to New York City. So really my time
in the South was not necessarily the longest time of
my life, but I think it was some of the

(14:52):
most influential time for me. Is that where you started
to find your love of performing? Uh yeah, yeah, yeah.
And you know, I was really lucky because I went
to a great public school in my town and they
had an amazing theater program. Mr Ackley was our theater teacher,

(15:13):
and he created this incredible theater program at E c.
Glass High School, Lynchburg, Virginia, and that changed everything for me.
In fact, I was going to a different, like a
smaller girls school in town, and I went and saw
a production of West Side Story at the high school,
and my life was forever changed. I was like, and

(15:38):
I'm like, I have to do that I wanted And
that was the thing that immediately made me want to
go to that school and be in a play like that,
And so I just started doing that. You know. I
was able to take theater classes and be in this
amazing theater program, and that was really life changing. That
created a dream for me that I didn't think would

(15:59):
be reality. It created a dream for me like when
I would talk to my best friend Martha on the
phone and we talked about our dreams of what we
wanted to do. She's like, I want to be a
ski bum, like and I was like, I want to
be an actress. And they both seemed to have about
the same level of reality. Martha did not become a
ski bum, although she is now an avid skier, but

(16:23):
neither of those things seemed very realistic. It just was
like what you dream about as a girl in school,
you know. So yeah, that's where it started. The same
I had an arts requirement at school, and I it's
it's funny because I was at an all girls school
and our theater director, Mr Wright Tim Right, he was
so amazing. And this is in high school. Yeah, this

(16:44):
was in high school, and I think he was sort
of like, Oh, this kid thinks theater is silly. It
was actually eighth grade. I had to do my first
play and I I was really like, I'm going premed.
I had a whole plan. I think when you're like that,
you come from an immigrant household, it's like you can
be a doctor or a or a lawyer or a doctor.
Like that's it. Uh. It was like this light bulb

(17:07):
moment for me. I was like, oh my god, a
play is a book but alive. Oh it was just
this thing. I thought, Oh my god, it felt visceral.
It didn't feel like an after school special. It felt
like a visceral part of the human experience. Such a
sensitive kid obviously still am um and yeah, it just

(17:32):
it felt it felt like something opened, like a door opened.
And it's it's cool to hear about that part for
you because we've talked so much about work and you
know about college and about you studying in China, but
like to hear where it really started. That's a that's
a new thing for me to hear from you. And

(17:54):
I do think yeah, and I do think like having
theater music when you're growing up in those formative years,
especially if you're growing up in a small town or
you know, a place where maybe you feel different, it's
a really it's an amazing outlet for discovery, you know,

(18:16):
in those years where you really are figuring out who
you are, and it's like, oh, well, I can be
this person, I can be this person, I can tell
this story. It's a great way to discover what your
voices or what somebody's voices. And and yeah, I just
think we're so fortunate. That's why I've always I feel

(18:37):
so bad when I see schools getting rid of arts programs,
and it's just like, gosh, that's like cutting off a
limb in a way for these kids, especially kids who
are lower income or living in places where they just
don't have a lot of opportunity for discovery. It's just like,

(19:00):
it's that we need that. Everybody needs that. Kids need
it absolutely, just because I think I got so much
from it. You know absolutely. I remember there was an
article I read a couple of years ago that has
always stuck with me, and the I don't remember if
it's the headline or the sort of subheadline said the
school was in trouble. The principle fired all of the

(19:22):
on campus cops and hired music, drama, and arts teachers,
and all of the crime and the violence and everything
happening at the school went away, and all of the
kids test scores went up. And they're just kids, just
needed an outlet and they needed to learn to communicate,
and the arts give you a language for your emotions. Yeah,

(19:45):
and I just thought that was so cool. That's amazing
that that says it, that says it in a nutshell. Yeah,
there are two things about your school that I'm so
curious about, because there's another thing I think we have
in common. Everyone is him's. We would have studied theater,
especially as high school theater kids, and I studied journalism,

(20:05):
and you've got a degree in Asian Studies with a
concentration in Chinese, and you studied in China. And the
bicycle biking through the rain story, I will never forget
what prompted that, what prompted young college age Connie to
be like, I'm off to China, see you guys. Well,

(20:26):
I went to Dartmouth and I got there, and I
still had my crazy, crazy dream of being an actor,
and I did a play my freshman fall at Dartmouth.
But I didn't have a great experience. It was very different.
It was they took themselves much more seriously, I thought,
than my high school experience. And it was so it

(20:48):
was a little bit like, all right, you know what,
like that was for my younger days. Now it's time
to grow up and be mature and figure out what
we're gonna do with my life and get serious. And
at the same time, my freshman year also I had
to fulfill a language requirement because in fact, I was
actually pretty terrible at language, and so I was like, okay,

(21:09):
I have to fulfill language requirement. What's the coolest language
I could think of? And that was Chinese. I thought, Chinese, whoa,
that is so exotic, that is so another world. So
that's why I started studying it. And then the other
thing that was amazing about Dartmouth was they really encouraged
you to do foreign study. So I was doing all

(21:30):
this Chinese and boy, it took a couple a lot
of time because it was really hard. And then but
then I had the opportunity to go study in Beijing
during the summer term. So I did a full fall, winter, spring,
and then I could go to Beijing in the summer.
And I was like, I'm definitely going to do that,
are you kidding? So then I went to Beijing and

(21:52):
had that experience, which was really truly a life changing
experience for me at that time, and then I was
kind of off to the races with my Asian studies. Yeah,
when you talk about it being a life changing experience,
when you're beaming, you're I see you feeling excited. Why
do you think so now when you when you look

(22:13):
back at that, what gives you that warm, fuzzy feeling.
But you know, I love discovery and I always have.
And when I got to China, you know, with whatever
my bag was, we were going to be there for
three months. I got off the plane in Beijing, China,

(22:37):
and the air was thick with like cold dust, and
even the place the environment felt different, the smell was different.
And this was in the eighties, this was still very
much communist China. People were predominantly wearing mouth suits, which

(23:00):
is what the Communists used to wear. I mean, the
China of today is not I would I would most
certainly not recognize it. This was mouse suits Communist China,
signs and parks that say no dogs or Chinese allowed
only bicycles, almost no cars at all. Everyone got around

(23:23):
on bicycles, like hundreds and hundreds of bicycles in the streets.
That's how people got around. And we were in a
dormitory at Beijing Normal University and I got there and
it was these kind of cinder block rooms and I
rimmed with Kirsten jilibrand casual roommates senator casual at the

(23:46):
casual roommates senator at that at that time, she was
Tina Rutnick, And you know, it was the two of
us in this room, and we slept on these sort
of like straw mats that matt beds, and then there
was kind of a very like rustic suit desk and
chair in the room and that was basically it. And
then the bathroom was a shared bathroom along the whole

(24:08):
like up the whole floor of this dorm and it
was like holes in the floor. That's what the bathroom was.
So this was a rude awakening. And by the way,
these dorm rooms, we we had two people to a dorm.
The Chinese people they had six people to a dorm.
So they were literally like it was three bunk beds

(24:29):
on each side, and then just a narrow space in
between the bunk beds where they would have like trunks,
so there was no space to actually move or anything.
So this was actually luxurious for us. But when I
first got there, I was like, Oh my gosh, what
have I done? Why did nobody warn me about this?
This is I should have been warned. I had no idea,

(24:53):
like I really it was really one of those things
where I I really didn't know what to make of it.
It It was scary and unknown and difficult, and everything
just felt scary really, you know. And that's the thing,
kind of going back to what we were talking about initially,
like it's scary to go away from what you know.

(25:18):
That's why it's so genuinely difficult. That's why I have
so much empathy for it. It's scary to be in
that situation. And I would say the first month that
I was in China, I actively disliked it. I was homesick.
It was really hard. It was such a huge culture shock.
Our first dinner they gave us, there was like a

(25:39):
fish in the middle of the table with like the
eye I'd never seen that before, like, you know, staring
up at you. That was sort of the nice welcome dinner.
And then after that, like the food was not the
Chinese food that we know that most of us know
in our hometowns or whatever. And it was scary because
it was so different and hard. And then I was

(26:05):
able to like trudge through it long enough and I
was able to get to the other side of that,
and then I loved it. And then I was like,
this is so fascinating, this culture on the other side
of the world that feels so different. Then I just
like took such great joy and trying to understand this

(26:27):
group of people whose lives and background and history was
so deeply different from ours, the way they live, in
their values and all that. And then I loved it,
you know, and I felt such a strong affinity for it.
It was definitely a formative time for me. So when
I look back on it, I feel like in those moments,

(26:47):
we really grow, and I feel like I grew as
a human being, and I love having the opportunity to
do that. And I and I always said, even later
in college, when I found my way back to the
theater and decided maybe I would even try to give
it a shot, maybe go to drama school after college,

(27:10):
I always said I had no regrets about my focus
on Asian studies and Chinese because I know it will
make me a better actor to understand how much diversity
there is in the world, and to understand different cultures
in the way different people are, and to let that

(27:32):
be a part of who I am, you know. And
it also for me started my real desire to look
outward and to know the world better and to consider
my own life and my own world beyond just my
neighborhood or even my my town or my state or

(27:55):
my country, you know. And how beautiful the ortunity to
have an experience where you can be frank about how
out of place you feel or or anxious you feel,
I'm sure you feel because everything is unknown, and then
to kind of crest that hill and then have everything

(28:15):
that is unknown and unsure be what you love the most. Yeah, yeah,
I know. It's so special. It's funny that because certainly
as an actor, I think there are so many parts
about being an artist where I think risk taking is
very important and yet also difficult. It's inherent if you're

(28:42):
taking a risk, that you're going to be doing something
that feels scary and outside your comfort zone and difficult.
And sometimes I find even you know now, in my life,
like it's hard to assess, like, how do I make
a choice that feels scary but know that it's the right, scary,
very choice that it's actually going to I'm going to

(29:02):
be able to cress that hill and get to the
other side as opposed to, Oh no, I need to like,
I need to like pay attention to these fears and
these are red flags, and maybe I don't make this choice,
you know, That's always I think for me that discernment
is sometimes the most difficult. But I always want to
ask those questions because I'm very fortunate to have throughout

(29:22):
my life had experiences such as my China experience to
show me that there is great reward in doing the
thing that feels really scary or different. Yeah, And I
hope that each of us who is able to share
about those things can remind other people to try to

(29:45):
lean into that. M h. It feels like there's so
much potential on the other side of something new, and
you know, that formative kind of experience. I think when
you really do lean into something else. It's how I
felt about journalism. Really leaning into studying stories about people
and how they're told and who gets covered and why

(30:09):
made me a better storyteller. And when I think about
one of the things I think is so cool about
you is, as you say, you know, you came back
to the theater, you studied under Sanford Meisner, which we
have not actually ever talked about as a theater geek.
I'm like, Connie, tell me everything about it. How was it,

(30:29):
what was it like? It was scary? I bet well.
When Sanford when I mean when I was studying under
Samford Meisner, he was old. It was sort of the
end of his time, and you know, he'd had this
this throat surgery, so he talked like this. He he
had like a I think he had like a yeah,

(30:54):
but he would still be in these class and in
these classrooms. But I just remember, or you know, we'd
get up and do a scene in front of Sanford
Meisner and he'd be there and he'd sit there and
you'd finish your scene and you say, who's your teacher?
And you're like, you know, if he's asking you who
your teacher is, you're so screwed because he's going to

(31:15):
go yell at your teacher because you were so bad
in the scene. Because like we all because he wasn't
we all had, you know, our own teachers at the
Nabal Playhouse. But then he would he would sit in
on the classes and we would do certain certain segments
with him, so he was very intimidating. But again, like

(31:37):
it's that that also the thing that we're talking about,
which is how amazing to have had the opportunity to
have worked with this great teacher who developed, you know,
the whole premise of the Meisner technique is listening. That's it.
Will you tell people more about that? So you do?

(31:58):
You know, Samford Meisner is this amazing acting teacher and
the fundamental idea behind his teaching was these listening exercises.
And you would you spend your entire first year just
sitting in a chair across from somebody else sitting in
a chair and you would say something like I'm hungry,

(32:22):
and the person would say you're hungry. Yeah, I'm hungry,
You're hungry, And I mean it was It's that simple,
and it really even initially I'm sort of like, what
are we doing? What is this? What is this? But
it sort of evolves from that. But the idea is
that you are. It's not about the words. It's about
listening to the person's emotional like like where they're coming from,

(32:48):
the emotional inflection, and and then it would like it
would shift from I'm hungry too, well you sound like
you're blah blah blah, you know, and so it's sort
of this almost improvisational journey that is without plot, it's
without sort of you know, with there are no ideas
of who where you're supposed to be or who you're

(33:09):
supposed to be. It's literally just connecting with the human
in front of you. And that has been one of
the most important fundamental ideas for me in my life,
both as an actor but also as a human. Just
just listening. And I really value that because it comes

(33:36):
into play and everywhere. It comes into play in my relationships,
it comes into play as a mother, it comes into
play when I'm looking at the world and trying to
understand it. Better. And the other side of that is empathy,
you know, because then you can really feel that. But
working with Sandy Meisner was a scary thing. But the

(33:57):
other side of that was this incredible gift that I've
been able to hone in on and carry with me.
And and then I worked with a protege of his,
this incredible teacher named Wyn Handman. He ran this theater
called the American Place Theater, and he was probably the
great teacher of my life. But he was. It was

(34:18):
it was sort of a continuation of of that. He
he also had worked with Meisner and developed with him
in the old days was old kind of cool development
theater days. Yeah, that's so cool. And and so how
do you how do you make the leap, you know,
from studying to working. Your debut film was The Brothers McMullen,

(34:41):
which I talked about a classic. But when when you
start thinking about, you know, from that moment running through
the you know, the career on like two x speed,
how do you kind of see it all laying out? Well?
I was really fortunate. I'm so grateful that I had
my like four year liberal arts education and really got

(35:04):
to do that and then go to drama school in
New York City for two years and then found this
to other teacher that I was telling you about wyn Hammon,
and then just really started pounding the pavement in New
York and was doing acting class and doing theater and
church basements and summer Stock and you know, off off,

(35:27):
off off off Broadway and starting a starting a theater company,
which basically was we got like a space in like
Avenue Z, like deep deep deep East Village at that time,
which was all still a little dicey, and we would
do play readings and you know what, just whatever, just

(35:47):
like immersing myself. But even I loved being in New
York City because New York is such an I've always
loved New York and New York has such an aliveness
to it, and it felt like there is such a
great arts scene and obviously Broadway, but you could be
any you could be trying to create anything. But then

(36:08):
it's also people doing every other possible job you can imagine,
so it didn't just feel like I mean, listen, I
love living in l A and and Hollywood and all that,
but this feels like very much like a workdown. You know,
this is like a show of his town. New York
City feels like New York City like again for me

(36:30):
and the way my brain works. There was just so
much diversity and so many people yearning for different things
and trying to accomplish different things, and you know, I
would just take all of that in and but you know,
I was just really struggling and but also just trying
to make make my stuff, you know, do do whatever,

(36:53):
and make whatever I could happen happen. And I would
answer ads every week. There's a there's something called back
Stage Magazine, which is it was at that time a newspaper,
and you know, it kind of would tell you, you know,
give you kind of the latest in mostly theater, I think,
but you know, I don't know, I don't even remember.

(37:14):
To me, it seemed like it was a lot of theater.
But and then they would have ads for auditions, so
it would tell you there's a call for chorus for
a Broadway show, an actor's equity call, although initially I
wasn't even in actor's equity, so I had to I
could only go on non equity calls, and those would

(37:35):
usually involve like standing outside when it's still dark outside
at like five o'clock in the morning, standing in line
outside of actor's equity until they opened the doors with
like so many people in the freezing cold or in
the rain, and then it was like an all day thing.
And then you'd get in and you'd sign up for
an audition if you got there in time, and then

(37:56):
you'd have to go back or wait until they called
your name for this audition. And I never ever, ever, ever,
ever ever got a job that way, but I did
it so much. And then the other thing in backstage
was that you could answer. You could send out your
picture and resume to all these various people student films
or whatever. So I would every week I would send

(38:17):
out like a stack of pictures and resumes to various people.
And one of those people was this guy who was
doing a movie, trying to like cast his movie. His
name was ed Burns, Eddie Burns. And I went in
and I almost didn't even go to the audition because
I was like out of town visiting my sister who
was in Washington, d C. And I kind of last minute,

(38:39):
like went to the audition and he cast me like
that day, and I was like, oh, well, he really
doesn't know what he's doing and then and then I
was like, okay, I'm doing this little movie. Of course,
there was never any money discussed. There was no we
were not going to get paid. It was just you
just at that time, like I would just do anything

(39:01):
to get experience. And Eddie was this great guy and
he cast this great group of people and it was
a real family movie. And we would just shoot whenever
he had film stock because he was just doing it
like on his own little shoe string budget, and he
was working as a p A on Entertainment Tonight, and
so sometimes he would take like used film stock and

(39:22):
use that like for the movie, and we would shoot
at his house, his parents house on Long Island and anyway,
so it took us forever to shoot this movie. And
then because he was a p I Entertainment Tonight, they
were interviewing Robert Redford one day, so Eddie was in
an elevator with Robert Redford and he was like, Mr Redford,

(39:45):
I am an independent filmmaker and I have this a
tape of this movie that I just made in my backpack.
Would you take a look at it? And he pulled
it out of his backpack. And later because I got
to know Redford over the years, he told me the
story too, and is I and I don't know what
made me want to look at this kid's movie, but
I took it, you know, and I was He's like,
I was piste off. I hate those things that you know,

(40:07):
he had to do this interview and whatever, but I
took this kid's movie and he watched it. You know.
This is when really this was sort of like the
golden era of independent film at the Sundance Film Festival.
And Redford really like his intentions with that are so
pure in terms of what he was really and still

(40:27):
is really trying to nurture in terms of like a
truly like independent film environment. And so and I think
that's why he watched the movie, you know. And so
the movie got into the Sundance Film Festival, and I
remember when I heard that, I was horrified. I was like,
I I literally cried. I was like, Robert Redford is
gonna I'm gonna be I'm so terrible, I'm so humiliated.

(40:49):
Like I was like I couldn't believe people would actually
see it. And Robert Redford was actually gonna see it.
Was like convinced I was awful, and it won the
grand Jury Prize at the Sundance Film Festival, and that
was like a life changing moment. I mean that those
are you know again, that's just one of those things
that you could never predict, you could never plan. We

(41:13):
were the underdog of all underdogs, and when we were
at the Sundance Film Festival, we were sitting in the back, back, back,
back back, absolute last row of the auditorium. I didn't
even know there was a grand Jury prize and then
we want it. So that was for me, the amazing
big break moment. Yeah, yeah, what a moment. That kind

(41:35):
of changes everything when you think about things that you've
worked on since, you know, for for me as your
friend and as a person who's seen a lot of
your work. When I think about projects Friday Night Lights,
when I think about Nashville, when I think about Promising

(41:59):
Young Woman and be a Trisit Dinner and White Lotus,
all of these things, what stands out to me is
whether you're playing the person who has no idea how
privileged they are, or you're challenging a system of privilege.
I mean, come on, Tammy Taylor challenged everything. Yeah, you know,

(42:23):
do you as you look at your career. Have you
chosen specifically to dig into fostering those conversations or have
you more often said, oh I really like this person
and want to develop them or is it sort of
a mixture of both. Yeah, I would. I mean, I've

(42:46):
I have a pretty strong commitment that really comes out
of my own privilege and the opportunities that I've been
fortunate to have. But through that and really Friday Night
Lights was the first. It was really for me an
exploration in women's power because it was a show about

(43:09):
football and again going back to kind of what we've
been talking about, and I've told the story before, but
like people really wanted and Sarah Aubrey really wanted me
to do that show. And I had done the movie
with Billy Bob Thornton and the character was almost non
existent in the movie. And that was also with pet

(43:30):
Burgh and he was always he felt very badly about
He was always very apologetic. But that was a hard
movie to structure and I understood that. And but so
then they were doing the TV show and they wanted
me to do the same part, and I was like no,
And you know, I came up at a time when

(43:54):
many of the roles on television for women. You know,
it's like there's one woman for every nine men in
a film or in television, and quite frequently the roles
for women were very supplemental, very supporting, pretty one dimensional,
and so it was just sort of a game for me.

(44:16):
It was kind of fun to like take these supporting
characters and try to make them as three dimensional as
possible and to like give them a life, even though
the life wasn't really on the page or really in
the storytelling. And so when Friday Night Lights, the TV show,
came along, I was kind of in a place where

(44:37):
I wanted to work, I needed to work, but this
felt to me like a dead end. It was like, wow,
is this all that I can ask for myself? You
know that, like I'm going to be I'm going to
now be the supporting woman in a show about football.
This I'm going to be the wife of a coach
in a show about like that is dominated by men,

(45:00):
And I cry, like I can. I could still cry
thinking about it today. And this is going back to
the whole conversation we were having about how it's sometimes
it's really hard to know whether you need to watch
for the red flags or whether you need to take
the risk. And I kept saying no to it, and
Peteburgh was like, listen, this is our chance to give

(45:20):
these women a voice. This is our chance to do
what we didn't do in the movie and to show
what who these women are in these in this community.
But you know, people say whatever they want to say
to get you to do something, you know what I mean.
I'm like, my experience does not tell me that that
is what's going to happen. My experience tells me that

(45:41):
is going to be a supporting female in a world
about men. But I signed on to do it because
I kind of I got with you know, he kind
of whittled me down, and I was like, well, I
need the job, and so I signed on to do it.
And I remember crying the day that I signed to
do it, because I'm like, I can't expect any more
for myself than this, And so I think those circumstances

(46:06):
with in which I chose to do that gave me
this drive to make it more than that. And I
had already been sort of doing that in my career
anyway out of necessity, like Okay, let me humanize these
women as much as I can even though they're not
very strongly written, and thankfully Pete did stay true to

(46:29):
his word. Pete stayed true to his word. And then
Jason Cadams came in to be our showrunner and he
remember he sat down with me once the show was
picked up, and we really and I was like, we
have to like give her a voice. We can't let
these women's quote unquote sit on the literally sit on
the sidelines. And Jason picked up that commitment, and he

(46:50):
was the one who thought about making Tammy those high
school counselor, which immediately put her in more of the story.
And so I was really supported. And Kyle Chandler, of course,
who played the coach, also wanted the relationship that we created.
He wanted that and so it was like the greatest

(47:13):
blessing to have all of those wonderful people and their
intentions were aligned with mine, and so we really together
let Tammy come to life, but let all these other
women on the show as well come to life. So
that was an important learning experience for me because I

(47:33):
realized that in doing that myself as an actress, I
was also able to create a character who was doing that,
who was finding her own power in a world dominated
by men, and who was able to be a full
partner in her marriage and a strong, though flawed mother,

(47:56):
and to navigate a pretty conventional male dominated football world,
um and to navigate that as a woman, and to
do so in a way where she was knowing her
own voice and being her true self. And so that
was an incredible experience for me. And to be able

(48:19):
to put that character out there into the world and
then have women come to me and say that it
had impacted them as well and helped them to know
themselves better was really one of the great lessons for
me about what we can do, you know, what we

(48:40):
what we can do as artists, and when we have
this platform of television and it's never hitting people over
the head, it's actually just letting people see themselves in
a really honest way. And so so I've really stayed
very committed to trying to do that with all the
characters that I play, And even a character like in

(49:01):
Promising Young Woman who is a college dean and she
has an essence turned the other way when there has
been a sexual assault on campus and a young woman's
life suffered for it, but she took the side of
the boy involved and she For me, even that character

(49:22):
was it was very That was really I did not
know how I was going to play that character because
I couldn't wrap my brain around it. But then I'm like, Okay,
I need to figure out because there are of course
so many women that would take that same tech, and
so I want to I actually want to understand her.
I want to understand her. I don't want to judge her.

(49:43):
I want to understand her and like see what drives her.
And that was a really interesting character because she is
a part of a system that has been in place
for a very long time, and that is a system
that has probably that she was built to be a
part of. She she was educated to be a part
of it. Um that's where her all of her success

(50:06):
has come from is being a part of that system.
And I had empathy for her because for her to
like try to shake up that system would be shaking
up her life. So even though it meant that she
did not do right by this young woman, and in fact,
in her action is perpetuating sexual harassment on campus, she

(50:29):
didn't understand those the repercussions of that because it was
too important for her to hold true to the systems
that she is a part of. One of the things
that's really dawned on me, I guess as I've gotten
older and more capable of having a wider purview, you know,

(50:49):
holding more things to be true at the same time,
I think, when you're young, you can hold maybe one
or two, and now I feel like I can I
can hold a lot. One of the things I've really
realized is that when I was young, I couldn't bear
to not like my characters. I couldn't bear it. I
couldn't do it. It was too emotional, it was too hard.

(51:11):
And now you know, when I hear you talking about that, Dean,
I actually think one of the greatest sort of signs
of skill at being able as a performer to compete
in the emotional gymnastics required is to actually look at
a character and say, oh, this person is part of

(51:33):
the problem, and I have to completely withhold my judgment
of them and find out how to sympathize with them,
because if I play this person authentically enough, people who
have behaved this way will see themselves reflected and they
won't like it, and maybe they'll be able to see

(51:54):
a path to change. Maybe they'll realize that not you know,
as this woman was unwilling to shake up her life,
didn't even know she could, didn't know how. Maybe a
person in a similar position who watches that movie goes, oh,
I I have I have to agitate this system. M H.

(52:14):
In this moment, I realized I have to and I
do have more power than I thought I did. And
that two, to withhold the very human tendency of judging
wrongdoing so that you can play someone authentically, have to
humanize them. Yeah, that's the thing. You the job. My

(52:36):
my number one rule, no matter what, I never ever
judge my characters. In fact, I love my characters, even
if in the story, you know, if you hate them,
you love them. But I don't. I genuinely don't. First
of all, I don't allow myself to have judgment about them.
So it's like so I always go inside. I immediately

(52:57):
go inside. I'm like, Okay, what is her? What is her?
What her driving her? What is it? Then I think
it's exactly what you're doing, you're you're talking about, Because
if there's no judgment, then what I'm left to be
able to do is find the humanity, And then there's
a universality that can happen where you can watch a

(53:17):
character who may be behaving differently than you, but you
see their humanity and so you can relate and so
or somebody who behaves that way, can you know. I
mean I've actually been I've been doing a lot of
those characters lately, like you know Nicole on White Lotus,
and I love Nicole, like I never ever judged her,

(53:39):
even though everyone around her is judging her. She is
living in a world of contempt around with her family.
And therefore, because I never said Nicole is this kind
of person, I've had women like, who aren't that kind
of person? Say, oh my gosh, I so related to

(54:00):
her when she's like breaking down about the fact that
her entire family just picks on her all the time.
And that's the goal. Then we can have better understanding
of each other if we can create these characters that
we're not judging, but we are just finding the humanity
even if their behavior is barbaric, you know. Or when

(54:22):
I did Dirty John, I remember our mutual friend Jed
was the one who told me about that podcast. Were
you there and we were talking? Yeah, you you guys
right right right, So you guys told me about that
podcast freaking out, Yes, and you were freaking out. And
then like the next day, my agent reaches out and

(54:43):
it's like, have you heard of this podcast? Dirty John?
And I was like what? And then you guys, and
you guys were so kind of like, oh my gosh,
this character, you know, she's I mean, there there was
judgment around the character, and a lot of people I
think had judgment around Deborah uh who I got to
know very well when I was playing that part, and

(55:05):
I was like, I don't judge her. She's a human
being and like and actually her so much of her
behavior is quintessential female behavior, quintessential human behavior. But beyond
that because also the other thing that is really interesting
to me is I really am having a great time

(55:25):
as an actress exploring what makes us tick as women.
You know, I am very fascinated by that and the
things that we are handed down that impact our behavior.
And Deborah was a great opportunity to do that because
she's this incredibly like, lovely, beautiful, successful, self made woman

(55:47):
and mother, and she had a series of events in
her life and like the culture that she grew up
in and the religion that you grew up in, and
the family that you grew up in, all of these
things influenced her perspective on what she felt she deserved
and how important a man was in her life. I
was fascinated to discover that. And so in playing that part,

(56:11):
even though there was so you know, people would listen
to that podcast and to be like, she's so stupid.
Why didn't she see that this guy was just bad
for her, so much judgment, so much judgment that she
had to and she had to deal with. Meanwhile, the
number of women, women that I've known for years and
never knew came out of who came out of the woodwork,

(56:32):
and we're like I had a very similar experience where
they became involved with a sociopath and it was a
truly scary experience. I mean, thankfully it wasn't as crazy
as Dirty John. But again, it's just putting all of
the pieces and all of the building blocks together to
find and have empathy for the behavior as opposed to

(56:55):
just judging the behavior, you know, and it just makes
all the different And said, I've I've just been having
such a great time like exploring that and particularly now
in the world going back to our initial conversation about
how we are divided, but like really trying to understand
the you know, I don't judge the women and the

(57:16):
people who think differently from me. I just really would
like to understand them better. And if there was a
way to help people know that, as scary as it
is to change, if you get past the crest of
that hill, there's so much more reward on the other side.

(57:37):
That would be great accomplishment, you know, And it's interesting
to One of the things I've realized I have to
be particular about is the clarity, you know, when out
there working on political issues, the difference in in clarity
of saying no, I'm mad at the system. I'm mad

(57:59):
at the political players in power who are manipulating their voters.
I'm not really mad at other voters. I get frustrated.
I get frustrated when I feel like people are voting
against either themselves or their neighbors. But I see, I

(58:19):
actually see us all, regardless of what end of the
spectrum we fall on, as having a common enemy in
corporate conglomerates who lie for profit and produce propaganda for
profit and willingly risk the lives of their own viewers.
Customers and constituents. Yeah, that's who I'm actually mad at.

(58:44):
And what I've realized is the more I can repeat that,
because you can't assume that everyone sees everything you say
every day obviously everyone stows out there trying to survive.
The more I can be clear about that, the more
people who assume I wouldn't want to hear from them
realize that I do, and I have really interesting conversations

(59:08):
and we listen to each other, to go back to
that part of the beginning, right right exactly, I know,
I mean, because that's the thing is we realize it's
so easy to lump people into groups. And I think
that that's become the way our our culture is functioning
right now. And when you can really break it down

(59:30):
to like want just up the person. Each person is
acting from what they know and that is a commonality
across the board amongst all of us. So that's like universal,
so we all share that. So if you can start

(59:51):
from there and see the person as opposed to like
see them in this you know, lumped into this group
of just group of behavior, is I think it's a
more productive way to look at the world around us.
And I think I've learned that from acting frankly, and

(01:00:11):
it feels important to you know, to say or or
maybe to be clear that it takes a long time
to get here, to a point where you're not just
angry or judgmental, and to say, hold on, that isn't working.
How do I look deeper? How do I see commonality
even with people who I I don't think I could.

(01:00:33):
How do I make room for them and then maybe
make room for myself? Is that kind of duality, that
capacity to hold multiple things to be true at the
same time. Is that how you had to approach someone
like Nicole boss Barker. Because it's so cool to see
the White Lotus be this cultural sensation in real time.

(01:00:56):
I feel like we still rarely have that now because
TV is all about binging, so people people watch when
they can, and everyone this summer watched White Lotus at
the same time, and it was so fun. I know,
that was so cool. So I feel like I haven't
been part of something like that and so long, and
I feel like that's kind of what I came up
in and then everything changed, so it was it was fun.

(01:01:19):
It was really fun, and it was and it was
cool to have it be a sensation because it was
just people talking about their feelings and experiences for the
most part, and yet it was it's also such a
meditation on where we are struggling with, learning to hold

(01:01:40):
more awareness, learning to be more culturally sensitive, learning to
acknowledge diversity, learning to deal with bias and privilege. It's
it's such a good Mike White did such a good job.
Oh my gosh, I know, what was this whole experience
for you? Well, for me, it was just because of Mike.

(01:02:01):
I just think he's a genius writer and a genius
writer and a genius observer of human behavior. And to me,
the most exciting thing is when you can observe human
behavior and then translate that into storytelling where everyone in

(01:02:25):
the story is familiar. It's a familiar like not only
human being, it's not it's not not only just a
familiar character and a familiar person, but it's also a
familiar like element in society. Do you know what I'm saying?
And but I just think it's so very difficult. I mean,
it's really social satire, and it's so very difficult to

(01:02:48):
write truly great social satire that will just pull in
an audience, as you said, like you know, where everyone's
watching at the same time. And I think that people
were so dy onto it because it was this crazy
heightened world where everything felt like something that you recognize

(01:03:09):
in some way, and so we were able to see
ourselves but not see ourselves and strangely, um, you know,
because like those characters are pretty like most people would
not want to say, oh, I'm just like you know Nicole,
or just like you know any of them really, and
yet there's just something very relatable about all of them.

(01:03:32):
And I think that that's just a very special thing
to be able to accomplish as a writer and as
a director. So so I you know, we shot that
in the height of COVID. Of course we got to
shoot at shooted at the Four Seasons in Maui, so
that was pretty spectacular, but also strange because you know,

(01:03:53):
we were in this really really tight bubble there at
the Four Seasons and COVID, as we all know, is
a scary moment in time, and so this was kind
of the first foray into what's it going to look
like to work in that situation, and everybody was double
masked and we were so careful about we couldn't go anywhere,

(01:04:17):
you know, we couldn't leave the bubble, and that was
really intense. But I never had a question that it
was something that I wanted to do because I think
that what Mike White is capable of doing is very
rare and very special. And so it's fun. You know,
it's fun. It was fun to do it. It was
I loved every single person in that cast so much,

(01:04:37):
and then it was really and then it's it's fun
to see that people respond to it and like it.
You know, it's so cool and it's interesting to me too.
The musing on flipping a gender norm, you know, Nicole
being the breadwinner and still dealing with her particular issues.

(01:04:58):
You know, you said being up that her family picks
on her. What is the resentment? How does that work?
You know? It it's really interesting because in a way
it's a reminder that you know, quote, solving the problem
doesn't solve all the problems. Yeah, And and then there's
some elements where you're rooting for her, in some elements

(01:05:19):
where you're like, God, this woman, I know, and again
with Nicole, like she's just doing the best she can
and I'm fascinated. You know what for me, one of
the things that was so fun about that character is
I kind of grew up with my parents, even though
my mom was a stay at home mom and my
dad was the breadwinner, and but I kind of grew

(01:05:42):
up with them saying you can do whatever you want,
like sort of this idea that you can have it all.
And I think that that is a real struggle for
women in the culture. And so I thought Nicole was
a great great x lauration in perceived success, like as women,

(01:06:05):
you know, trying to like create our own business and
breaking through the glass ceiling and all of that, and
having a family and being a mother and being successful
and all of those things that are these markers of
success supposedly. But then what I loved about playing that

(01:06:27):
character is that she really is representative of just how
challenging it is to really have it all, you know,
because on paper it seems like she would and you know,
they've got all this money, and but her kids don't
respect her, her husband doesn't respect her, her husband cheats
on her. She feels constantly like behind in terms of

(01:06:50):
her work stuff. You know, even in that scene where
she the reporter like talks to her about the journalist
talks to her about like, you know, they have that
argument about how even the journalists kind of demeaned her
and the way she wrote about her. And I think
that's why a lot of women ended up relating to that,
because it's really hard to do everything and we don't

(01:07:12):
have models for it, as you know, in the culture
where this is where we're all breaking new ground. And
and by the way, not only do we not have
models for it, men don't have models for it, so
men don't even really know how to deal with us.
So you know, so we get called bitches, so you
know what I mean, Like, we are creating new models,

(01:07:33):
and I feel like Nicole was a good example of that.
Even though she she and we make so many mistakes.
We're all making so many mistakes, and we're still products
of the systems and the structures that are in place,
even as we're trying to like break new ground, which
is true for all of us on some on some level. Yeah,
And something that struck me watching the show was, Yeah,

(01:07:55):
she's flawed and there's plenty to take issue with, and
yet it feels like for her, which is really representative
of so many women, all of her mistakes are really
held on her neck and men. Everyone goes like, what
would you expect? Right? And I go, wait, wait a minute, how,

(01:08:17):
how how then is this person supposed to grow? How?
I don't know it? Really, It definitely sent me into
a tailspin thinking because I to your point about judgment
with with the characters we play. I immediately identified what
I judged in that type of woman in the in
the archetype of woman you're representing. And then I thought, Okay,

(01:08:40):
hold on, I have to unpack that. What's on the
other side of that response. Why do I have this response?
Where where might I need to have this response that
maybe I don't that I've been cultured not to. You know,
I think probably one of the things I love most
about you as a friend is your ability to hold
a lot of things very tenderly. You just do and

(01:09:01):
with no you have like, no expectation, no ego about it.
You have you have an immense calm confidence and yeah,
I love you. And I think about it as it
applies to this conversation. The empathy that you meet tension

(01:09:22):
with the lack of judgment for characters that everyone's wanting
judging when they watch, and yet in this world where
there is a lot of bickering and arguing. You are
also unafraid to take a stand. You've always been unafraid
to speak out on issues, whether it's explaining that yes,

(01:09:43):
poverty is sexist, what's happening in gender dynamics, what's going
on in our industry and in other industries. How do
you find your ability to be courageously moral and to
be a defend or of others while also holding empathy

(01:10:03):
for the people who might be the people you have
to defend others against. How do you feel like you
hold onto that well? I love, I actually have really
loved what you've been saying today about being able to
allow multiple things to be true at one time. And
I think the only way to do that is non judgment,
you know, because judgment is the thing that creates black

(01:10:27):
and white. It's the thing that creates like either or
this or that this is good, this is bad. That's judgment.
So I think to answer your question, first of all,
thank you for saying all those sweet things, so I love.
That's means so much to me, you know, I mean,

(01:10:47):
I know I've I've probably told you this before, but
and sometimes it sounds so sort of idealistic, a naive.
But when I went to college, you know, after mine
went to China and stuff, I just was learning. So
I learned so much that I never knew before. And
I learned about the world, and I was learning about
genocide and extreme poverty and so many of the things
that have happened in the world and were and are

(01:11:11):
still happening. And I remember like despairing and calling my
dad on the phone from college and being like, what
are we supposed to do? I mean, when I think
back on this moment, it's fascinating to remember being that
naive and having my eyes open to the injustice of
the world for the for seemingly the first time, and

(01:11:34):
feeling so hopeless and helpless, and calling my dad because
my dad was the smartest person I knew, and being like, oh, well,
what are we supposed to do about this? And then
cut to I was a p A on a production
of Born Yesterday, which started in Cleveland, as everything does,
and then went to Broadway and it was starring Ed

(01:11:56):
Asner and Madeleine Cohn in Born Yesterday, And we were
living in Ohio at the time, and so I would like,
we were living in Akron and I would drive every
day to the Cleveland Playhouse to be like a little
p a on this for the summer, and I became
friends with Ed Asner, who I was like, oh my god,
ed Asner. I watched him every spare moment that he

(01:12:19):
wasn't in rehearsal or working, he was off doing something.
He was off doing something charitable or something for the world.
And suddenly it clicked for me and I thought, wow,
you can parlay because I still at that time was
you know, I was back in my passion for acting
and that it just wasn't going away. And I thought,

(01:12:43):
you can parlay your talent or your desire to do
something into this greater good. Because to me that felt
like a bridge. It felt like, oh, watching him, this
is a way that I can do something in the world,
because otherwise I was really overwhelmed. I was like, how

(01:13:03):
do you what do you do? You know, I guess
I could have joined the Peace Corps or you know,
there are things like that. But somehow watching him was
such a great influence for me because I thought this
would be a way to parlay this thing that feels
like a very organic, inherent thing for me, which is acting.

(01:13:24):
And my love of that and be and then holding
this bigger picture of what I would like to try
to do in the world. And and so that's really
what's always driven me. And it's pretty specific because there
are a lot of different kinds of actors out there,
and there are people who get into it for all
different reasons. And again I don't judge any of that,

(01:13:47):
but I've always held very true to that because frankly,
I don't think I would have a career and I
don't think I would be the actor that I am
if I focused on anything else. I think it's this
vision in this dry that keeps me in the direction
that is right for me, and so therefore, to me,
it feels like a real every time I can give

(01:14:12):
voice to the voiceless or speak out for things that
feel really important and things that feel like values that
I believe in. Every time I have the privilege and
opportunity to do that, it feels like a gift, and
it feels like the sort of mission that I've been

(01:14:36):
trying for all this time. Yeah, I feel that. It's
like I think there's no cooler opportunity than when the
spotlight gets pointed at you to be able to grab
it and pointed at someone else. It's yeah, it's pretty special,
I know. And I think of you as doing like you.
You are somebody who I feel does that in such

(01:14:59):
a beautiful, profound way. Like I am constantly inspired by
you because you you you have the ability to go
out there and you know, I'm I'm just sort of
like I feel like I'm kind of just do it
my way and like muse my voice and whatever. But
I feel like you really go out there and you
like create a business around it, you know, like you

(01:15:21):
do it on a very big level, a very big scale. Yeah,
it's funny, uh Jed Actually, I remember he said to
me once. He was like, it's so funny that everyone
thinks of you as an actress because you're just an
activist who uses acting to make people pay attention. And
I was like, yeah, that's really sweet. I guess it
kind of my full time job. But then I have

(01:15:42):
to have it. I have to have like a day
job to pay the bills. So it's it's sort of
cool to be able to hold both well, you know,
and I think you and I are that's maybe where
we are a little bit different, because I think for me.
You're such a very present and vocal activist, and you
have done that in such a really like, as I said,

(01:16:04):
on a very large scale. And I think one of
the things that I've discovered is I've been very interested
in like using my work to make people think and
to maybe create you know, It's like if one of
the things that I'm really trying to put out into
the world is people to empower themselves, and particularly women,
to empower themselves and to know themselves better, because I

(01:16:27):
think that ultimately then we can that that creates a
bigger group of people who can go out and do
great things in the world and make change. And so
I I do think a lot about like and the
roles that I play that I hope that there's some

(01:16:49):
translation out into the culture where women see can see
themselves differently and maybe see their own possibility, in their
own capabilities in a different way. It's interesting. I think
I'm I'm really making space for that in my life.

(01:17:11):
I was speaking to a friend of mine who is
an incredible activist the other day, and she was saying,
you know, she had a whole season years of her
life where she was physically on the front lines every day,
and now that's not sustainable. And so while other people
are moving into those spaces, she's moving into the space
of being a speaker and an educator. And and I

(01:17:33):
I feel like I did a lot of years on
the front lines, and I am starting to feel really
excited as as we create these decentralized power structures and
communities of activists whereby we're really on a relay whereby
I'm going to go and I'm stepping out while other
people are stepping in so I can make some art

(01:17:55):
as as commentary. And I I'm craving that. I'm craving
that work and that personal creativity. I've I've given a
lot and now now I'm going to give to myself
for a beat. And I'm I feel it's interesting to
be at a point where I'm like, oh, yeah, I

(01:18:16):
deserve that. That's gonna be nice. Yeah, it's it's certainly
a work in progress for me. Yeah. But also and
as it should be, like, you have no idea what
that is, what's going to evolve out of that for
you to make you a better activist and a better

(01:18:36):
artist and all of those things and and probably impact
the world around you, you know, So I mean, that's
the thing when I think we have to follow those
moments in those voices, because those are the those are
the voices that will lead us to the place where
we're taking the risk. But it's the right risk, and

(01:18:56):
it's the risk that will put us outside of our
comfort zone and show us the world in a more
profound way. On the other side, what feels like your
work in progress right now? I mean being a mother,
Being a mother is always a work in progress. And
that was the biggest learning curve for me when I

(01:19:18):
became a mother was realizing, oh, I get it. I
will never know what I'm doing like I am. It
is going to always be discovery. And you know, you're
raising a human, you know, and that is a flesh
and blood being with their own thoughts and ideas and

(01:19:44):
intentions and soul. So that is for sure an ongoing
work in progress and it will never not be that.
And that's that's a great gift. That's that's the great
gift of it. That's where Yobi teaches me every day.
Um also my production company, this is new for me
and it's just learning on the job, you know, figuring out, oh,

(01:20:08):
this is what it means to try to get a
show made, and this is how this works, and this
is how long it takes, and this is how you
can have something like get all the way up to
here and then just like fall apart, you know. And
that's also been a steep learning curve, but but exciting.
And I love that that's one of my works in

(01:20:30):
progress because I feel like it's really fun at my
age to be discovering a completely different side of this business,
in this art form that I have been striving towards
since I was a child, you know, and yet oh
I never I never knew until you know, I'm in
my fifties and I never knew until now, this whole

(01:20:53):
side of it. So it's really, it's cool, fascinating. I
love that it feels really the theme of all of
it is discovery. Yeah. Yeah, and gosh, if we can
just like have hold that perspective throughout our lives, that's

(01:21:14):
that's very fortunate. Yeah. Yeah, I'll give you a lady mud.
Cheers to that. Cheers to that, that lady mug