August 8, 2024 • 68 mins
Millions of people grew up watching Katie Couric as co-host of NBC's Today Show and in her groundbreaking role as the first woman to solo anchor a network evening newscast. Now, she’s the one calling the shots as the founder of Katie Couric Media.
The award-winning journalist, podcaster, and New York Times best-selling author joins Sophia for a wide-ranging chat, including the current state of media, the competitive nature of the news industry, the double standards female journalists face, Katie's current 'work in progress' and a sneak peek of the 9th season of her podcast, 'Next Question with Katie Couric.'
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress Whipsmarty's.
Today we are joined by a member of the Work
in Progress family who is here for a follow up
(00:21):
and I could not be more thrilled. Today's guest is
none other than Katie Kuric. You know her as a
legendary American journalist and presenter, the founder of Katie Kurrek Media,
and the publisher of Wake Up Call, an amazing newsletter
which if you're not subscribed to, you need to be.
And as if that wasn't enough, she's also the host
(00:41):
of Next Question with Katie Kuric. She happens to be
one of my favorite journalistic brains, one of my favorite
women to talk to about the complexities of modern life,
and one of the most inspiring people I know because
she's always so curious about everyone she meets, whether that's
(01:01):
someone she agrees with or someone she might even passionately
disagree with. Katie is such an advocate for holding dialectics,
the fact that many things can be true at the
same time, and figuring out how we can all meet
and care about each other in the middle. Today, she's
here to give us a little preview on season nine
(01:22):
of her podcast, on which she dives into a variety
of topics with some of the world's most interesting and
influential people to explore the big ideas that are percolating
in the zeitgeist, but focusing on slowing down, diving deep,
and connecting with each other. Her show really, for me,
feels like a reprieve from a culture that is obsessed
(01:44):
to with quick hot takes and surface levels small talk.
She is helping me and all of you and all
of her listeners take a breath, be together and figure
out what comes next. Let's hear from Katie.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
How are you, Sophia.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
I'm great. How are you.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
I'm good, I'm good. Busy, Yes, I'm sure you are.
Everybody's so busy, right.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
Yeah, you know, it's funny you say that. I was
talking to my therapist about this this morning, and he
was saying that, you know, first it was computers, and
then it was smartphones, and then COVID, and each of
these kind of world changing either advances in technology or events,
has further deteriorated the line between personal and professional time.
(02:40):
And so yeah, we're all just sort of in this
swirl where we're supposed to be on and working and
reachable and responding every second of every day. And we
were just sort of talking about the mental health implications
of that about an hour and a half ago.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
So yes, yeah, well yeah, I've been fascinated by that.
And how busy. You know, busy has become kind of
a weird badge of honor too. Yeah, you know, it's
almost like a humble brag, or not really a humble brag,
just a brag. And yeah, and I also think like
(03:16):
work has changed. I used to think, you know, I
used to go to the Today Show, do the show,
figure out what I was doing tomorrow, maybe do a
couple of extra interviews, and go home. But now I
feel like we feel so scattered because we're doing things
for different venues and different platforms and different things. So
(03:41):
it doesn't feel as much of you know, going getting up,
doing a task, focusing on that task. You kind of
feel like it's you're all over the place because you
are right.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
And in a way to your point, we all used
to have a job and then maybe do some support
work for the job, but now you're expected to have
your day job, whether that's you know, on a TV
series or you know, a network show like you're referring to,
and then you're meant to be a content studio, and
then you're meant to have a social media presence, but
(04:14):
it can't just be professional because then you're cold. So
you're also supposed to produce content about your life, right,
And you're supposed to have time to have a life
without always having your phone out, but you're expected to
always be reachable because now your life is for business,
verticals and likely multi city and it's like we're all
(04:37):
kind of essentially expected to be a full crew under
one little human umbrella. And it's very.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
Strange, right, and very taxing. And you know, I think
I think what you and your therapist were talking about
is right your I think life used to have a
certain rhythm and now that rhythm has been disrupted by,
as you mentioned, twenty four to seven availability, and you know,
(05:10):
this need or perceived need to have to share everything
and post everything and be this insatiable beast that is
social media or various forms of media.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
So yes, it's a lot.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
It's a lot, and I don't think people it's almost
like a frog in slowly boiling water. I don't think
people have appreciated how significantly things have changed, and how
our pace of life has undergone this massive transformation.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
Yeah. Well, what an amazing jumping off plant with you, Katie,
because part of what I wanted to ask you about
today was how you managed to do it all. And
it is really interesting, you know that we find ourselves here.
I mean, longtime listeners of the podcast will be so
happy to have you back. Newer listeners of the podcast.
(06:09):
I'm joined again today by the iconic Katie Kuric, who
is every bit as inspiring and brilliant as you would assume,
and happens to be one of those people who, every
time I see her in a room, opens her arms
for me to leap into them, and you will text
me to check in and see how things are going.
And you really manage to seem, I think, to many
(06:33):
of your friends and admirers, like someone who has figured
out how to do it all, how to spin all
of these plates. And it's so interesting that both on
a personal and societal level, you are also reflecting on
the impact of all of this. I suppose maybe we're
(06:54):
all reflecting on it because we're trying to figure out
what this next sort of wave of life and society
look like, how how when you look at these seismic
shifts and what they cost, how do you also try
to keep the hope alive by considering what these shifts
(07:17):
have also offered to us? You know, how do you
look at kind of both sides of the coin.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
Well, you know, I'm on a personal level, I'm really thankful.
As much as social media has been damaging on a
lot of lever levels, and we can talk about that
in a moment, but I'm thankful for disintermediation because it
has enabled me to continue what doing what I love
(07:47):
to do. You know, it's it's democratized and opened up
these avenues for people. I was thinking about this today.
You know, in some ways it's made it harder because
of the proliferation of all kinds of content. And you know,
when there are gatekeepers and fewer outlets, it was harder
(08:09):
to get to gain entry. But now with so much
out there, it's harder to be heard because there's so
much competition for our attention. But just on a personal level, Sophia,
I'm glad that you know, when I left I went
to NBC obviously for the Today Show, and then CBS
(08:32):
Evening News and then I went to Yahoo to kind
of understand this digital landscape better. You know, I think
I am very grateful that I can have a voice
but not work for a big network news organization. So selfishly,
I'm really happy that that that there are avenues for
(08:57):
me to communicate with people, to hopefully enlighten them or
illuminate a complicated topic, or share something that I think
is useful or even just fun and you know, slightly
entertaining or and so I feel very lucky.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
You know. I think if I.
Speaker 3 (09:17):
Was forced out of the business or you know, consider
too old or whatever it would be that would not
allow me to be on a more traditional media platform, I.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
Would be really sad.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
I mean, I think I would find something else, some
other way I hope to be useful in the world.
But the fact that I can continue doing what I
love to do through a podcast, you know, talk to
interesting people like you or Renee Fleming about how music
impacts your brain, or Jim Vanda High on his really
smart book about how to be a better employer and
(09:54):
an employee. You know, I'm insatiably curious, and I'm just
so grateful that I have an outlet for that. Still yes,
so that's that's the positive. And gosh, I don't know,
that was a great, big honking question you asked me, Sophia.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
What was the other part.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
I just really jumped in off the high dive. Well
that was it, you know, because I think sometimes especially
women like us who are so curious and who love
fact finding and we love to understand how these things
fit into the greater puzzle of society, life around.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
And learn, I think we love to learn too.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Yes, yes, I really think that's one of the things
that always inspired me as a fan. And then when
we became friendly and you know, I got to call
you a friend, I was like, oh my god, that's it.
It's curiosity. But sometimes I think curiosity can lead to
a bit of overwhelm because you do learn all the
big scary facts. You read all that data. You understand
(10:59):
that people are struggling, or that these things are having
negative impacts on teenagers, or you know, all the stuff
we all read about, and so I just also love
to know what as such a brilliant woman who is
so informed keeps you hopeful, and you know, it's not
lost on me as you talk about these avenues opening
(11:21):
up and you mentioned gatekeeping. So many of these upper echelons,
whether it's you know, news, media, reporting business, they've held
women out for so long. And I remember from the
first time you came on the show, you talking about
how watching Mary Tyler Moore really inspired you to want
to be in the news. And I really get a
(11:42):
kick out of that because same nick at night re
runs are my favorite thing to watch with my parents,
And I think about what Mary Tyler Moore would think
if she could see how for all of its faults
these the democratization of voice and platform has particularly allowed
so many women to flourish. It's a really incredible thing.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Well.
Speaker 3 (12:07):
I think also, you know, more traditional forms of media
have recognized that the people who are talking about issues
or delivering the news need to look more like the
people who are watching it. And I think as demographics
have changed, as you know, there's going to be a
(12:28):
majority minority population in this country by twenty forty four,
but as the country's gotten more diverse and as women
have made strides, I think they have recognized that these
platforms are not the purview of just singularly white men.
And I'm very heartened when I not only look at
(12:51):
all these platforms where gosh, I'm amazed at how talented
people are. By the way, Sophia, this is just a
little quick sidebar. I'm just amazed at the people I
see were incredible artists or they can make clothes or
they I mean, they're so much talent out there. I'm
(13:12):
so thrilled that people have this outlet for expression. I
think they always did, but now they're able to share
their passion with so many people. I'm like, wow, look
at what this person did. Look a look at this
cake that this person decorated. Nava, you know, Frosted by
(13:35):
Nava is one of my favorite follows. She's i'sak Perlman's
daughter and she was I think a pianist or violinist,
I can't remember, but she just decorates cake full time
and she is an incredible artist and the creations are
just beautiful. So anyway, that's my little sidebar. But I
(13:55):
do feel like like voices that weren't heard, you know, Gosh,
I just I think you not only as I said,
look at these platforms. You look at news outlets and
cable networks, and goodness, it's so much more diverse. And
I think that we've come a long way since I
(14:17):
got into the business in nineteen seventy nine.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Absolutely, absolutely right.
Speaker 3 (14:25):
I mean I look back sometimes I look at old
photos when I was at the Today Show and I'm
the only woman, yeah, you know, in the whole group.
And now you look at the Today Show and it's
just chok, a block full of women. And so I
think so much has changed, and I think it's a
(14:47):
good thing. And by the way, I like diversity of
all kinds. You know, I like to have male energy there,
I like to have female energy. I like to have
people from different backgrounds. I think sometimes we don't appreciate
so economic diversity enough. You know, people who grew up
in certain circumstances and understand how people are struggling, or
(15:10):
appreciate certain things that other people may not. Or people
come from rural environments, and you know, I think that's
really important too. So I'm very gratified when I look
at how things have changed.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
We'll be back in just a minute after a few
words from our favorite sponsors. I even think about, you know,
a as a younger woman watching you know so many
of you, that really example set for me, you know,
(15:52):
knowing I wanted to study theater, but for whatever reason,
deciding to pursue my desire to study journalism at the
same time. I'm in college. You know, I looked up
to women like you and Diane Sawyer and Barbara Walters.
You know, there were there were these people I could
look at. You know, even in elementary school, I begged
my mom to pick me up fifteen minutes before the
(16:15):
bell so I could make it in time, so I
could make it home in time for Oprah to start.
You know, like you just great. You all set these
incredible examples for me. And then I think about in
my own career. You know, in the early days, bosses
that really wanted to pit the women against each other,
and they didn't want us to be friends. They didn't
(16:36):
want us to like band together to make demands. And
I think about that even you know, back in the day,
I remember hearing the you know, whisperings, rumblings whatever that
you know, Katie Kurk and Diane Sawyer have a rivalry,
And I'm like, you did that or was that just
the media not understanding that there were two of you?
Speaker 2 (16:55):
No, you know, I've been.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Thinking of silly.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
I've been thinking about this a lot because you know,
they're doing a documentary about Barbara Walters. Yes, and I
was talking to the director of the documentary. I think
this is so interesting because you know, a lot of
industries are competitive, and it's okay to be competitive, Like
(17:23):
I applaud Barbara and Diane and me and Connie Chung
and Peter Jenny's and Dan Rather and Tom Brokaw and
all these people who are sort of my generation. They're
a little teeny bit older than I am. But you know,
a lot of you know, if you're a journalist, it
(17:46):
is competitive. You know, you want to break the story,
you want to get the big interview.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
And somehow there's a double standard because the men are
very competitive too. But somehow, now when you put women
in competitive situations, it's called, you know, a cat fight.
There is no commensurate term for men or competitive. And
(18:13):
believe you me, Sophia, they are extremely intensely competitive. Yes,
so I find it interesting and I don't think, you know,
it's just I struggle with this and I'm still obviously
trying to figure it out. But how can you be
competitive and supportive at the same time. It's sometimes difficult,
(18:36):
and I don't think we ever have conversations about that
women have the added burden of being competitive, trying to
get ahead in their own business, but also supporting other
people other women. Now, I sometimes wonder do men have
that added burden being competitive, and yet they're supposed to
(19:00):
support all the people they're competing against. It's somewhat confusing
to me.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
I love that you're talking about this, and I think
a perfect framing. Honestly, I just did an interview about
this yesterday. You know, as one of the owners of
Angel City, I talk a lot about women's sports, and
I was talking about this because to your point, you Barbara, Diane,
(19:27):
Connie Oprah like rare air, top tier women in your field,
and the men you mentioned, Peter Jennings and Tom Brokaw,
those arenas are all competitive, as you say, but the
men are able to compete and be professional, ballsy, cutthroat
(19:49):
even but women get called rivals. And I'm seeing this
really played out because we are experiencing this gorgeous moment
where there are so many eyeballs on women's sports. Finally,
we're all like, welcome to the party, you're late. But
you see these people who clearly have never watched a
(20:09):
WNBA game, for example, flipping out that you know, Caitlin
Clark got checked on the court and they're saying, well,
they've never these women. They're being vicious, they're jealous of her.
She got a shoe contract, And I'm like, do you
all know how much less money these women's contracts that
are so few and far between are than any of
the men's. Like, you're focused on the wrong things. We're
still not quite getting to equity. And what it says
(20:31):
to me is you didn't look at footage of Stewie's
early career, or Candice Parker or Lisa Leslie or any
of the women who paved these roads into the w
And for some reason, these women that are literally the
best female athletes in the country, who are out competing
on courts like gladiators, are essentially being told they're being
(20:54):
too hard on each other. And it's it's like, they
literally play physical sport for a living. What are we doing.
Speaker 3 (21:02):
I think it's this deep seated gender, gendered perspective that
is baked into us from the almost the get go.
You know, when we start being socialized, when we start
consuming media, when we start you know, receiving these messages
(21:23):
and making these connections. There's a professor at Harvard who
teaches in the at school, Masarin Banagi. I think I
interviewed her for an hour I did on gender inequality
in Hollywood and Silicon Valley, and she was talking about
how our brains, when they're extremely new and still developing,
(21:45):
we make these associations, you know, so we associate moms
with cooking or taking care of the house, and dads
with working, and now more moms working. But just sort
of these messages on society and gender roles are are
are so baked into our almost our every cell of
(22:08):
our brains that when we see things that seem antithetical
to that kind of socialization, it freaks people out. And
so I think seeing women compete in sports is something
unbelievably relatively new for a lot of people. And when
(22:31):
they see women being tough and as you said, checking
and doing all the things that you do when you're
a competitive athlete, it almost trips people up in terms
of their expectations. So I still think we're we're in
a transitional period for opening up so many avenues for
(22:56):
women or people of color or and and it it
just almost messes with our greatconceptions in a way, if
that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
Yes, And do you think, you know, having had to
thread that impossible to thread needle of being the best
at what you do and yet somehow never getting in
anybody's way, do you think that social media to sort
of come back around to the beginning, this opportunity to
create this whole new space for yourself to continue your
(23:28):
career without having to be, you know, handcuffed to one
of the Big three or whatever it may look like
in the landscape today. Do you think in a way
that helps you undo some of those misconceptions, you can
you can be exactly who you are. You can be
brilliant and want to watch silly dog videos, and you
can talk to people about gender inequality and also some
(23:53):
you know, cool new play that you saw. In a way,
you get to be more yourself because you can be
more of a whole.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
I think so.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
I mean, I felt very much free to be who
I was when I was at the Today Show, less
so when I was doing the CBS Evening News, where
I think I had to fit into a much smaller
box being a serious, credible news person. And I think
I've always been very multi dimensional, you know, I think
(24:25):
media it's tempting to well, you know this, Sophia put
people in a box like as a type, right, and
I think it is very hard or or it was
hard for people understand to understand kind of the whole
breadth of the person, especially in news, because I think
women were trying so hard to be taken seriously and
(24:48):
be credible. And I think on the Today Show I
was allowed to really let my freak flag fly and
be kind of who I was, you know, goofy and fun,
but also hard hitting and serious when it was required.
And I feel like social media I'm just kind of
an extension of that. And what's great for me having
my own company and being able to shine a light
(25:11):
on various issues and being selective about it. You know,
I have a lot of freedom and I don't have
to appeal to someone. Can I please do a story
on this? Or don't you think we what about a
story on this now. I did have a lot of
authority when I was at CBS because I was the
managing editor and I could say, hey, I want to
(25:33):
do a series on dating violence.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
You know.
Speaker 3 (25:37):
It was after Yardly Love, who play Lacross at Uva
was beaten to death by her then boyfriend, and I
wanted to do it, and I wanted to do more
stories where women were at the center of the story.
And I was able to do that, and I feel
really proud that I was able to do that. But
I think for me now, I don't you know, what
(26:00):
I don't have to do, which I'm so grateful for,
is play politics. I don't have to suck up to people,
and I don't have to be coy or cute or
you know, basically you know, like I like I had
to do. For example, at sixty Minutes, there was this
whole environment where the people in charge were guys, and
(26:24):
I would it was just really hard and that is exhausting,
and I'm really not good at it. I'm kind of
not a political person. I treat the security guard the
same way I treat the CEO, Like it's just not
in my nature to suck up to people. And I
(26:46):
just hate when I see people doing that. It's so
distasteful to me. And I think that's one of the
best things is because you know, it's the company has
my name on it and I'm partially running the show
along with my husband. That I had the freedom to
pursue what I want to pursue without having to kind
(27:10):
of beg to do it, or without being disappointed that,
you know, my story idea was given to somebody else
because the guy in charge didn't like.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
Me, right, Oh oh the.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
Worse so annoying.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
It's so annoying, And I'm with you. I just I
don't have that in me. I know people who are
very good at playing the game, and they're always networking
and they're building relationships and hosting a dinner party with
the influentials. So I don't know how they do it.
I don't have the energy.
Speaker 3 (27:42):
Well, I think sometimes, I mean, I think you, I mean,
I think it depends what you're guided by. You know,
if you're guided by what can that person do for me?
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Is one thing.
Speaker 3 (27:55):
But if you're guided by, oh, this person is really interesting,
has a lot to offer, and I'm curious about what
they're doing, and you know, if it comes from that
authentic place, yeah, I think it's fine. I think it's
when there's a power dynamic where you have to you know,
(28:16):
where you have to be subservient and emphasize your subservience
in order to get in order to be treated a
certain way. That's what I can't do, and I don't
think you'd be very good at it either.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
I'm definitely not. I actually think that's sort of that
curiosity and the desire to just to just explore it
with fascinating people is that's what led me to start
my podcast. I thought, hold on, I can create a
job where I get to sit for an hour with
people I absolutely admire and just ask them questions. That
(28:57):
sounds like the best thing ever.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
You have the best podcast voice on the planet. Oh,
You're honest, you have the greatest voice.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
I love it. I love how raspy it is.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
Oh, thank you. Well, look who's talking? I mean you
you your podcast? I love so much for our friends
at home. Next question with Katie Couric. If somehow you've
been living under a rock and you haven't heard it
yet is so stupendous. Did did that feel like a
natural extension, as you were mentioning earlier, of that fully
(29:30):
embodied you that you got to be on the Today Show?
Or or was it something else? Was there some next
ways of curiosity for you too?
Speaker 3 (29:40):
I think it's just the freedom that a podcast affords
to you. Know, you can say, gosh, I really want
to talk to the writers from Hacks. Yeah, you know,
I mean this is a shameless plug to get them
to hopefully one of them is listening. You know, I
don't want to talk to the stars. I want to
talk to the writers, one of the writers.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
This is absolute kismeth that you said this, because the
writers of Hacks are two of my oldest friends who
were my very first roommates in my home, and they
are now married to each other. And the fact that
of anyone you could pick, you said those two. I'm
absolutely going to have my producers clip this little audio
(30:22):
segment and I'm going to text it to them after this.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
So you got to help a sister out because I
got you.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
I think they are I love that show. I think
it's so clever. I think writers are so important and
so underappreciated.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
I do you know.
Speaker 3 (30:40):
I mean, they're the brains behind the operation. They are
what makes you know they make brilliant television. So yes, okay, good,
But anyway, what I was saying is like, I just
love the fact that now I can't get everyone, Like
right now, I'm trying to get Joe Biden to do
an interview with me, both on video and in podcast form,
(31:04):
and that's the beauty of it, you know, you can
do kind of iterate the content for different platforms and
the way people like to consume content. And so far
they are not they're not saying yes yet. But I
haven't given up hope. But it's just like wow, I
(31:25):
you know, this woman wrote a book called sociopath, How
fascinating she is one, and she went to school to
learn more about the condition.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
And I'm going to talk to her. So I think
it's like cue. It just felt like.
Speaker 3 (31:41):
Sublime freedom to be able to talk to whoever you
want in a way that you hope will be instructive
and entertaining for other people. Right, it can't be completely
self indulgent, but if you're passionate and interested in someone,
that will show and I think that will make it
(32:01):
more interesting for the listener.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
Yeah, we'll be back in just a minute. But here's
a word from our sponsors. And I do find it
in an ever more polarized world that there's something about
these conversations that can really turn the temperature down and
remind people that we're all just trying to figure this
(32:24):
out together.
Speaker 3 (32:26):
I hope, So, you know, I hope so it's it's
very hard. It's you know, we have become everything has
become so personal and so full of vitriol and anger
and grievance that gosh, it's it would be so nice
(32:49):
to be able to find that common ground between and
among people where because I do think, I don't know,
the tribalism is really disconcerting to me, this division that
exists in our country, and I think people who disagree
(33:11):
with policy should be able to have civil conversations about them.
I think what's hard is these media ecosystems have created
echo chambers, and I think the worst, the least flexible
side of us just gets almost calcified by hearing what
(33:40):
we want to hear over and over and over and
over again. And I remember I got in trouble on
Bill Mark because I said after the insurrection that I
thought some people needed to be deprogrammed, and I got
roundly criticized by the side that I was saying needed
to be deprogrammed. But I think kind of we all do,
(34:01):
We all kind of need to be deep programmed because.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
We're just getting.
Speaker 3 (34:06):
You know, reinforced, and our minds are closing to other
ways of looking at things or at least understanding that
people might look at a situation differently.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
Well, what also really worries me is the refuting of facts.
You know, while I do believe that the silos are
bad for everyone, I will say there's only one side
erecting gallows at the Capitol in Washington, d C. You
know these The effect of this sort of vitriol and
violence is I wouldn't say evenly distributed.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
Yeah, And you know.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
What scares me is that the facts are ceasing to matter.
You know, I was, as I do because I like
to post about the news a lot. I was sharing
about the day that the former president was indicted, you know,
guilty on all thirty four felony counts. That is an
unbelievable sentence to utter out loud. And I had someone
(35:00):
respond to me and say, it's the federal juries are
all rigged. And it was you know, twelve liberals that
convicted him. And I'm like, it's not a federal jury.
This isn't happening at the DOJ. This is happening in
a state court. And by the way, one of the
jurors that Donald Trump's defense team handpicked was a woman
who said she only one gets her news from Truth
(35:22):
Social She's a huge fan of the former president, and
she voted guilty on all thirty four counts. Sir, this
isn't some quote liberal conspiracy. This is the justice system.
The guy is a criminal, I know, and that's just it.
Speaker 3 (35:38):
It's so troubling when you see these these institutions that
really are the underpinning of our democracy. Yes, get not
even ridiculed, but disrespected and dismantled in a weird way.
(36:01):
But no, I totally hear you, and yes it is.
It is really really troubling. I think there are people
on the fringes that have very loud voices and sometimes
drown out people who are in the more sensible middle.
Speaker 1 (36:22):
And more willing to listen to each other.
Speaker 3 (36:24):
Yeah, and I think that's a shame. Jonathan, he wrote
an article in The Atlantic that you probably read, Sophia,
but if you haven't, your listeners should as well call
why the last ten years have been uniquely stupid? And
it talks about the percentage of people the voices on
social media are really at the ends of the spectrum,
(36:48):
and they take I think they they take up so
much oxygen and an inordinate amount of space that I
think sometimes we get the wrong ession of what most
Americans are thinking and what most Americans believe. So that
(37:09):
gives me some degree of solace. But but you're right,
and it's almost like a cancer that you know, people
start starts repeating this stuff and then it almost becomes
contagious and then impressionable people will then kind of absorb
(37:34):
that and reflect that back out to the world. And so, yes,
I agree with you one hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
Well so going into I mean, you know it is
as you said, the last ten years, certainly, but this
year is an election year, and you know, again this
can kind of be like the beginning right where everything
feels big and heavy and scary. How how do you
stay positive and keep your stress in check? Is it
(38:03):
reminding yourself that there are a lot more of us
that are willing to listen to each other than the
folks on the fringes or do you have some wonderful
secret life hack that you need to tell the rest
of us about.
Speaker 3 (38:15):
Yeah, I mean I get scared and depressed, I do,
and anxious, but I am constantly reminded of good people
out in the world. Honestly, I see people at a
grassroots level doing things for other people. I see people
teaching migrants from West Africa English in the park. I see,
(38:42):
you know, my friend friends Brian Wallack and Sondra Opraaviyah.
I just executive produced a documentary about them. He's dealing
with als and yet they're changing the face of the
disease by getting more funding and forming a community of
people and making a blueprint for others who have so
(39:03):
called rare diseases.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
You know. So I actually maybe I'm.
Speaker 3 (39:08):
Just uh, you know, hardwired for happiness and optimism. But
I do think that most people are really good people.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
I actually do.
Speaker 3 (39:20):
I think they're really nasty, mean people with the who
are ignorant and.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
You know that.
Speaker 3 (39:29):
I think they they're loud, but I do think they're
in the minority. I think that's what keeps me positive
for the most part. But I'm honestly, I'm I'm concerned
about our country. I'm concerned about our values. I'm concerned
about our moral compass.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
Yes, And.
Speaker 3 (39:53):
It's perplexing to me. I don't know if it's an
indictment of the media. I don't you know, which has
become so bifurcated. I think that, you know, I don't
know whether it's a product of our education system that
isn't emphasizing civics. I don't know if it's a symptom
(40:17):
of loneliness because our community infrastructure just isn't quite what.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
It used to be.
Speaker 3 (40:25):
And perhaps it's social media and iPhones that have made
people more isolated. And you know, I think people who
say things like what you described in your post or
what I get on a regular basis, would never say
it to our faces. And you know, I don't know.
(40:48):
I just feel like everybody is just loaded for Bear
twenty four to seven, and I think it's I think
it's symptomatic of a lot of other societal issues that
are manifesting in this kind of anger and grievance. I
don't know, what the hell do I know, Sophia.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
Well, I get it, and I think the willingness to
sort of analyze and ask the questions is incredibly important.
I think remembering to try to meet people with curiosity
about why they feel what they feel and perhaps what
they're afraid of, could be a great path to you know,
(41:29):
resiliency for us as a community. But I also think
your perspective on this stuff speaks to your resilience as
an individual. You know, as Katie, you have managed over
and over again to you know, throughout your career and
your personal life, choose optimism and resilience. You've modeled that
(41:52):
for people in ways that you know, in my own
relative understanding of what it's like to be a person
who lives life publicly and sometimes begrudgingly publicly like it's
not easy. And you have been through such incredible success
and wins and loss and humanity in your life. I mean,
(42:13):
you mentioned that you built this new company with John,
you know, your lovely husband, who is such a wonderful
human And I love the way you smile when people
talk about him to you, and I love seeing the
way that the two of you managed to seesaw between
the personal and professional. You're this beautiful, you know, unit
(42:33):
you're an inspiring pair. And the world also knows that
before John came into your life, your first husband, Jay
passed away. You had to process that loss and his
illness in public in real time. It I just it
(42:55):
takes my breath away when I think about it for you,
and to not only have to go through that, but
then to courageously and resiliently pursue love after loss, find
your phase two, your second wave of joy. Like the
swings that you have experienced as a human being are inspiring,
(43:18):
but then to do them on the world stage, It's like,
I think part of the reason you can look at
people and also the planet with such optimism is because
you've learned that so personally and you reflect it out
into the world around you.
Speaker 3 (43:34):
But I also think that's very sweet of you, by
the way. I mean, I try, But I also think
maybe what's in short supply is empathy. Yeah, you know,
like seeking to understand why certain people feel a certain
way and how they have been culturally conditioned. Now, remember
(43:54):
I did an hour for National Geographic a few years
ago on all these thorny social issues, and one of
them was on white anxiety, and I really examined changing demographics,
as I mentioned, to have a majority minority population by
twenty forty four, and obviously much more diversity in this country.
(44:18):
And I remember talking to some gentlemen and they lived
in a small town in Nebraska, and they were very
upset that there was like a Mexican Pride Day, and
you know, their point was, you know, we're from Germany
or we're from Poland originally, but you know, we're Americans first,
(44:41):
and I think we've seen it anyway. I don't know
why I'm talking about this, but I think it's interesting
because we've seen a real shift in a change from
assimilation right to I think, preserving one's national like identity.
And as we've become a nation of immigrants, people also
(45:02):
are gravitating to people in their communities, and there is
I think less and I'm not making a value judgment
either way, but less assimilation. So I was trying to
understand where these people who were upset about the Mexican
Pride Day or whatever it was, and the people who
wanted to, you know, be proud of their cultural heritage.
(45:29):
And I just think that change is hard, right, Change
is hard for people. And I think the more we
can talk about change, and the more we let down
our guard and drop the walls between us, the more
we can. And I've always felt like Sophia, if you
understand a problem, then you can fix it. But if
(45:52):
you don't kind of unravel what's causing the adjuta or
the stress or the anger, then you're not going to
be able to address it. But so I was trying
to be empathetic to these people who are like, gosh,
change is hard.
Speaker 2 (46:10):
You know, this is not how we felt about the country.
Speaker 3 (46:17):
And you know, so I think empathy is a really
important component to kind of getting to the bottom of
some of these strong, hard feelings that people are having.
Speaker 1 (46:29):
Sure, and now a word from our sponsors who make
this show possible. And I think also to be willing
to acknowledge what people underneath that might feel they've lost.
(46:51):
You know, for example, when my grandmother immigrated through Ellis Island,
you know, to America from Italy with her parents and
the rest of her family, you know, times were different.
You were meant to assimilate my grandmother, forbade my great
grandparents from teaching my mother Italian once my mom was five.
(47:13):
It just was not allowed because they needed to be American.
And so in one generation, my mother lost her language,
you know, she lost her tether to her heritage.
Speaker 2 (47:25):
Right, and now.
Speaker 1 (47:27):
That is such a source of sadness for my mom
and for me, But for my grandmother it was imperative.
Speaker 2 (47:34):
But isn't that interesting how you seeing that kind of
big shift.
Speaker 1 (47:38):
Yes, but I think because we were so lucky we
have more information than ever. We understand more psychology than ever,
We have more access to therapy than ever. We I
believe currently are more capable of holding the dialectics multiple
truths at the same time. I believe if my grandmother
were alive today, she would be really inspired to know
(47:59):
that I'm trying to learn Italian. But I can understand
how if you'd gone back then and you had interviewed
her in the way that you interviewed these people, she
would have been in a panic because her greatest fear
was not fitting in. Her greatest fear was the othering
of her children, the denial of opportunity based on a
sense of other. And I think it's hard when you
(48:22):
have been told that unless you assimilate, you will be other,
and then you get to see people coming behind you
who get to be both. It's actually probably painful. Your
anger is probably a mask for the way you feel
a little bit cheated. And if we could open that dialogue,
I think it would be I think it would be
so exciting. Those are the dialogues like if I had
(48:45):
it my way and I could just hop in like
an airstream for the next you know. However, many months
until the election I'd just drive around and talk to people,
be like, let's have a barbecue and talk like I
really want to know.
Speaker 2 (48:58):
You should do that. That would be awesome, wouldn't that.
Speaker 1 (49:00):
Be so cool? Yeah, well maybe we'll go together. Well,
let's call let's tell John, let's get the personal hat
on or the professional hat on for your your personal
professional partnership at home and tell your husband that we
have a story idea and says you're the boss. We
can probably get it done.
Speaker 3 (49:18):
See in a few months, we're going We're getting in
our airstream and we're going to go for barbecues all
across the country. You know, I honestly feel like a
group of people needs to do that. You know, I
think it would be it would be amazing. It's interesting
that you talk about thinking dialectically, because yes, on the
(49:42):
one hand, I think you're right. On the other hand,
I think that has been lost. You know, in this
very binary you have to be four or against. You
have to be pro this or pro that, and that
you can't say yes. And my daughter's twenty is very funny.
She has this group called the Divas for Dialectical Thinking,
(50:05):
and they meet I think they meet every week and
they talk about current events, and they've been really focused
on what's happening in Israel and Gaza and talking to
rabbis and talking to historians and talking to Palestinian scholars
and really trying to educate themselves. And you know, I
(50:28):
think it is I don't know why everyone, I guess.
I guess you can feel very strongly, and I'm not
saying you can't, but I think that sometimes we have
to understand and have empathy for both situations and appreciate
(50:51):
that something can be true. And yes, I don't know
if that's making any sense, but it does. That's sort
of how how I feel. And I guess as a journalist,
I've been trained to try to understand different perspectives, and
not necessarily. I mean, I do feel strongly about reproductive rights,
(51:13):
and I feel strongly about stricter gun laws. You know,
there are certain issues I feel comfortable saying I think
I believe this, But I do try to in my
role give various perspectives to hopefully achieve a deeper understanding
of issues.
Speaker 1 (51:34):
I think that's so incredibly important, and and you know,
I think you have to. You have to try to
figure out how these how these things happen and how
these generational conflicts play out. And really for me, I mean, Isabelle.
Speaker 2 (51:51):
Wilkerson's work Oh Love changed.
Speaker 1 (51:54):
Everything for me understanding you know, the research on cast.
Speaker 2 (51:58):
That she did so the warmth of other sons Oh
my god, I mean.
Speaker 1 (52:03):
What a book. But really for me beginning to understand,
for example, the conflict you're referring to in the Middle East,
to finally have the aha facts of you have two
populations who have been some of the worst victims of
caste in the world going through this cyclical, horrible experience
(52:30):
of you know, back and forth pain and outside influence
and outside trauma and genocide, and I mean it is
just it helped me understand. Oh, this is part of
why this is so hard to solve in a moment,
because of the way this fluidity of caste has harmed
(52:52):
over and over and over again. And the way she
explained it that has really burned itself in my brain
is that if you envision a house, cast is the foundation,
the terrible foundation of other and willingness to commit violence
and willingness to harm the other. That every room that
(53:12):
is an ism or a phobia is built on so sexism, racism, homophobia, classism,
all all of.
Speaker 2 (53:21):
These anti semitism.
Speaker 1 (53:23):
Anti semitism, transphobia, you know, islamophoses, islamophobia, all of it.
That these isms and phobias are the rooms that are
the shape shifters of the oppression caused by caste. And
I went, I finally get it. I have I have
(53:47):
tried to study for almost twenty years now the interconnectedness
of all of these systems and pull at the thread
of how this happens to us, Why gender violence exists,
Why in places where there is environmental devastation, it typically
makes gender violence worse. Why certain things happen when migration
(54:08):
or demographics change. And I always I got it. I
was like, I see this and this and this, I
see the domino effects. But to understand the floor has
been such a revolutionary thing for me. And when you
begin to make space for those dialectics, as you mentioned
to say, all of this can be wrong, all of
(54:29):
these things can be true. When you see the exercising
of the viciousness of cast you go, oh, we have
so much more work to do. And I feel partially
again to circle all the way back to the beginning,
so unbearably lucky despite all its faults, to be in
(54:50):
this technological era because I get to have this conversation
with you. At the beginning of season three of this show,
I got to interview Ava Duverne about turning the Passed
into Origin the film and learn about how you take
this brilliant academic work and turn it into the most
incredible hero's journey story for a woman in a movie.
(55:11):
I was like, how did you do it? How could
you have done this? And it's these conversations that have
shaped my thinking, my presence. And then in a way, Katie,
when you said, you know, there's so many more of
us willing to listen and meet each other in the middle,
I believe personally that I've become so much more willing
(55:32):
to do that personally, professionally, and politically since I started
doing the show, because I've just gotten to know so
many people so much better.
Speaker 3 (55:42):
And do you talk to people with whom you violently disagree, Sophia,
because I think, you know, getting back to our upcoming
airstream trip, let's go. You know, I think I think
you can model conversations. I mean, I should do a
better job of this too, with people who think very differently,
(56:06):
and I mean not everyone, because some I think are
operating in an alternative universe, but to kind of unpack
where someone's coming from beyond sort of the the trump
of it all, but to talk about what lies beneath,
(56:31):
you know, what are some of the pain points and
what are some of the things that may make someone
gravitate towards someone right who maybe we can't understand, but
maybe we would understand, and then in the process of
(56:52):
that understanding be able to address the the you know,
the fundamental is shoes that are kind of separating us,
if that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (57:03):
Yeah. You know what that makes me think a lot
about is the conversation we were having earlier about how
women are expected to compete but also expected to kumbayah
all the time. And my best friends had something really
great to me. She was like, no, we advocate for
women period. We don't associate with women who are unkind
(57:25):
or disingenuous. And I was like, Ah, that's a big thing.
You can work toward gender equity, and you can work
toward closing the lending gap, and you can work toward
equity and equality as a benchmark, but that doesn't mean
you have to be friends with every single woman in
the world, because not everyone's nice man, woman, non binary
(57:48):
person like you know.
Speaker 3 (57:50):
No, I think you're right. I think you're talking sort
of the macro level.
Speaker 1 (57:54):
Yeah, and that's what it is, right, Like this idea
that you're saying, Yes, do I want to have conversation
of the people I don't agree with? Like, have I
through this show become friends with Evan McMullin and Adam
Kinsinger are like people who most folks who consider themselves
progressive might not think. I'd be friends with absolutely, and
I cherish them and their opinions, and I like the
(58:15):
pushback they'll offer to some of my thinking. Do I
want to sit down with someone who, you know, tried
to hang the vice president on January sixth? No? I
do not. Like That's where I'm going to go ahead
and probably draw my boundary. Would I like to talk
to a family member of someone who was there. I would.
I'd like to know their thinking. You know, I think
(58:37):
all the time I'm trying to stretch my willingness while
making sure I'm retaining boundaries. But I don't want my
boundaries to be rooted in petulance. I want them to
be about you know, safety and respect, and as you said,
(58:58):
a at least a willing to agree on facts like
one plus one does in fact, equal to the sky
is not green. You know, some basic facts and then
we can talk about our feelings and our opinions.
Speaker 2 (59:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (59:14):
I think part of it is the the media, the
fragmentation of media and who you're listening to and the
information you're getting, and how it's reinforcing a certain perspective
that isn't accurate. You know you mentioned earlier about or
(59:34):
I was talking about how it's been gratifying to see
more women in important roles and I recently posted this
and I got I saw it on the female quotient.
You know, I was talking about how certain attitudes are
baked in.
Speaker 2 (59:50):
I'm just gonna play this for your listener's rule.
Speaker 1 (59:53):
Oh yes, please, Rick.
Speaker 4 (59:55):
Talk about the dream gap. It's that girl and their
full potential. The scene started at A five. Girls stop
believing they can be presidents.
Speaker 5 (01:00:08):
Stig thinkers, engineers, CEOs, and the list goes, aren't Why
because one else are regularing to believe?
Speaker 4 (01:00:20):
When my eight seven were more likely to think that
boys are smurdered than us, that's ridiculous. We are three
times less likely to be given a science related toy.
Speaker 5 (01:00:33):
That's sad.
Speaker 4 (01:00:34):
And when our parents are twice as likely to google
is my son gifted than is my daughter gifted?
Speaker 2 (01:00:43):
That's not cool.
Speaker 4 (01:00:45):
We need to see brilliant women being brilliant and see
how they got to where they are to imagine ourselves
so what they do, but we can't do it at all. Well, dads, feathers.
Speaker 5 (01:01:01):
And bosses, we need all.
Speaker 1 (01:01:04):
Of you to help mm the dream gap to all
of us.
Speaker 2 (01:01:14):
Oh, I love them, but that's what I was saying.
Speaker 3 (01:01:19):
You know, for all our progress, you know, there are
still these deeply embedded ideas that infiltrate our dreams and
keep them from coming to fruition. And so I think
that's what we need to and that's what I think
people respond to when they see, as you said earlier,
(01:01:41):
people getting checked on the court, or people you know,
behaving in a certain way. It it doesn't jive with
their preconceived notions. And we have to continue to try
to to shatter these myths and these limitations that are
placed on us.
Speaker 2 (01:02:01):
We've gotten very heavy here, Sophie.
Speaker 1 (01:02:04):
We you know what, for me, it feels inspiring because
you just said it. It is a myth, and I
think the more we can disrupt those myths, you know,
the more we can take that old dusty carpet and
you know, throw it over the clothesline and whack it
with a tennis racket, like shake the dust out, change
it up. It feels I don't know, it feels very
(01:02:27):
exciting to me. It feels like part of the work
of our lifetimes, don't you think?
Speaker 2 (01:02:32):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (01:02:32):
And I think you know, to your point when you
left school early to go see Oprah, you know, we
have to see more Oprah's and more Diane Sawyer's and
more Intra Neuis and you know, more Billy Jing Kings,
and I could go on and on and on, but
I think the more we see these people what they say,
(01:02:54):
you know, you can't.
Speaker 2 (01:02:55):
You can't.
Speaker 3 (01:02:55):
If you can't see her, you can't be her. So
you know, again, I think it's, as you would say, Sophia,
a work in progress.
Speaker 1 (01:03:05):
There it is. Well, actually, you lead me to my
very favorite question to ask my guests, Katie, and I'm
so curious to know now for you after you answered
it in season one, what feels like you are work
in progress right now, right here in twenty twenty four.
Speaker 3 (01:03:24):
I think still finding that. I think it's still finding
that balance of doing things that you think are important,
of being useful, of accomplishing things, and also the intangible
(01:03:51):
things like being a good mom and now grandmother because
my daughter just had a little baby boy, and you know,
being a good friend, spending quality time, not achieving, but
just being. I think that's a constant struggle for me.
(01:04:17):
I think I'm pretty good at it, but I'd like
to get better. And I don't know why. I feel
like I always have to be productive, and you know,
I don't think that makes necessarily for a joyful life.
If you're feeling so much pressure to produce, yeah, it
(01:04:38):
takes away time from just being, yeah, enjoying life. So
I would say that's still and I just feel like
I'm very cognizant.
Speaker 2 (01:04:50):
You know, I'm sixty seven.
Speaker 3 (01:04:52):
I'm on the back nine and although my husband says
I'm really more like on the fourteenth hole, I'm like, thanks, honey.
Speaker 1 (01:04:59):
Like that, well done, John.
Speaker 3 (01:05:01):
But I think, you know, there's so many things I
still want to do. You know, I'd like to learn Italian.
I'd like to learn how to be a great cook.
I'd like to learn how to do so many things,
and you know, I just don't have time to do
it all. So I think it's being intentional about how
(01:05:25):
I want to spend my time and with whom doing what.
I still think finding that secret sauce of time allocation
is still something that I'm that I'm working on consciously.
Speaker 1 (01:05:41):
Well, when you've got any tips and my way, cause
me too, sister.
Speaker 2 (01:05:46):
Maybe it's a universal problem for people.
Speaker 1 (01:05:49):
Yeah, yeah, but it's nice when you hear that. You
know your heroes and the people you look up to
are working on it too. You're like, Okay, okay, I'm
not that behind. We're all no, we're all kind of
in it. Yeah, well, thank you so much. I'm so
thrilled to have been able to catch up with you today.
I love ye, me too, and.
Speaker 3 (01:06:08):
I so appreciate how how thoughtful you are and how
eloquent you are. I like language, and I like words,
and I really love when people express themselves in a
way that is you know, that's that's in a way
(01:06:35):
that I'm not doing right now, the way that that
you know is eloquent and almost poetic and expresses exactly
you know, chooses the right word to express what they're saying.
I really appreciate and admire that, and I think you
do that.
Speaker 1 (01:06:54):
Thank you so much, Katie. That means a lot to
me coming from you, and I'm so thrilled about everything
that's you know coming up. I absolutely love next question.
And I know our listeners, all of our whipsmarties out.
Speaker 2 (01:07:10):
There will read our newsletter.
Speaker 1 (01:07:12):
Oh the newsletter is so good.
Speaker 3 (01:07:15):
Sign up at Katiecurrek dot com. You know, we have
so many great writers and journalists working on it every
day and I'm so I'm so grateful and proud of,
grateful for and proud of them. And we try to
we try to help people understand this crazy world. And
(01:07:36):
I think we're we're making a big contribution.
Speaker 2 (01:07:39):
In that department. So and then we have a lot
of fun stuff, you know, John has.
Speaker 3 (01:07:44):
Fathers Day's gift ideas and and you know, so it's
not all super heavy, but I feel like you can
really kind of get caught up and understand the world
so you can move on to living your life if
you just open our newsletter every morning. And that's sort
of the goal. You don't want to be the dumb
(01:08:05):
one at the water.
Speaker 1 (01:08:06):
Cooler, you know, oh God, the horror.
Speaker 3 (01:08:09):
And thanks for everything you're doing, and I hope I
get to see you in person soon.
Speaker 1 (01:08:15):
All right, my dear, I'll send you a note and
we'll find a.
Speaker 3 (01:08:19):
Time that would be awesome. Okay, thank you for today
Hi, everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress Whipsmarty's.
Today we are joined by a member of the Work
in Progress family who is here for a follow up
(00:21):
and I could not be more thrilled. Today's guest is
none other than Katie Kuric. You know her as a
legendary American journalist and presenter, the founder of Katie Kurrek Media,
and the publisher of Wake Up Call, an amazing newsletter
which if you're not subscribed to, you need to be.
And as if that wasn't enough, she's also the host
(00:41):
of Next Question with Katie Kuric. She happens to be
one of my favorite journalistic brains, one of my favorite
women to talk to about the complexities of modern life,
and one of the most inspiring people I know because
she's always so curious about everyone she meets, whether that's
(01:01):
someone she agrees with or someone she might even passionately
disagree with. Katie is such an advocate for holding dialectics,
the fact that many things can be true at the
same time, and figuring out how we can all meet
and care about each other in the middle. Today, she's
here to give us a little preview on season nine
(01:22):
of her podcast, on which she dives into a variety
of topics with some of the world's most interesting and
influential people to explore the big ideas that are percolating
in the zeitgeist, but focusing on slowing down, diving deep,
and connecting with each other. Her show really, for me,
feels like a reprieve from a culture that is obsessed
(01:44):
to with quick hot takes and surface levels small talk.
She is helping me and all of you and all
of her listeners take a breath, be together and figure
out what comes next. Let's hear from Katie.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
How are you, Sophia.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
I'm great. How are you.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
I'm good, I'm good. Busy, Yes, I'm sure you are.
Everybody's so busy, right.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
Yeah, you know, it's funny you say that. I was
talking to my therapist about this this morning, and he
was saying that, you know, first it was computers, and
then it was smartphones, and then COVID, and each of
these kind of world changing either advances in technology or events,
has further deteriorated the line between personal and professional time.
(02:40):
And so yeah, we're all just sort of in this
swirl where we're supposed to be on and working and
reachable and responding every second of every day. And we
were just sort of talking about the mental health implications
of that about an hour and a half ago.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
So yes, yeah, well yeah, I've been fascinated by that.
And how busy. You know, busy has become kind of
a weird badge of honor too. Yeah, you know, it's
almost like a humble brag, or not really a humble brag,
just a brag. And yeah, and I also think like
(03:16):
work has changed. I used to think, you know, I
used to go to the Today Show, do the show,
figure out what I was doing tomorrow, maybe do a
couple of extra interviews, and go home. But now I
feel like we feel so scattered because we're doing things
for different venues and different platforms and different things. So
(03:41):
it doesn't feel as much of you know, going getting up,
doing a task, focusing on that task. You kind of
feel like it's you're all over the place because you
are right.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
And in a way to your point, we all used
to have a job and then maybe do some support
work for the job, but now you're expected to have
your day job, whether that's you know, on a TV
series or you know, a network show like you're referring to,
and then you're meant to be a content studio, and
then you're meant to have a social media presence, but
(04:14):
it can't just be professional because then you're cold. So
you're also supposed to produce content about your life, right,
And you're supposed to have time to have a life
without always having your phone out, but you're expected to
always be reachable because now your life is for business,
verticals and likely multi city and it's like we're all
(04:37):
kind of essentially expected to be a full crew under
one little human umbrella. And it's very.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
Strange, right, and very taxing. And you know, I think
I think what you and your therapist were talking about
is right your I think life used to have a
certain rhythm and now that rhythm has been disrupted by,
as you mentioned, twenty four to seven availability, and you know,
(05:10):
this need or perceived need to have to share everything
and post everything and be this insatiable beast that is
social media or various forms of media.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
So yes, it's a lot.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
It's a lot, and I don't think people it's almost
like a frog in slowly boiling water. I don't think
people have appreciated how significantly things have changed, and how
our pace of life has undergone this massive transformation.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
Yeah. Well, what an amazing jumping off plant with you, Katie,
because part of what I wanted to ask you about
today was how you managed to do it all. And
it is really interesting, you know that we find ourselves here.
I mean, longtime listeners of the podcast will be so
happy to have you back. Newer listeners of the podcast.
(06:09):
I'm joined again today by the iconic Katie Kuric, who
is every bit as inspiring and brilliant as you would assume,
and happens to be one of those people who, every
time I see her in a room, opens her arms
for me to leap into them, and you will text
me to check in and see how things are going.
And you really manage to seem, I think, to many
(06:33):
of your friends and admirers, like someone who has figured
out how to do it all, how to spin all
of these plates. And it's so interesting that both on
a personal and societal level, you are also reflecting on
the impact of all of this. I suppose maybe we're
(06:54):
all reflecting on it because we're trying to figure out
what this next sort of wave of life and society
look like, how how when you look at these seismic
shifts and what they cost, how do you also try
to keep the hope alive by considering what these shifts
(07:17):
have also offered to us? You know, how do you
look at kind of both sides of the coin.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
Well, you know, I'm on a personal level, I'm really thankful.
As much as social media has been damaging on a
lot of lever levels, and we can talk about that
in a moment, but I'm thankful for disintermediation because it
has enabled me to continue what doing what I love
(07:47):
to do. You know, it's it's democratized and opened up
these avenues for people. I was thinking about this today.
You know, in some ways it's made it harder because
of the proliferation of all kinds of content. And you know,
when there are gatekeepers and fewer outlets, it was harder
(08:09):
to get to gain entry. But now with so much
out there, it's harder to be heard because there's so
much competition for our attention. But just on a personal level, Sophia,
I'm glad that you know, when I left I went
to NBC obviously for the Today Show, and then CBS
(08:32):
Evening News and then I went to Yahoo to kind
of understand this digital landscape better. You know, I think
I am very grateful that I can have a voice
but not work for a big network news organization. So selfishly,
I'm really happy that that that there are avenues for
(08:57):
me to communicate with people, to hopefully enlighten them or
illuminate a complicated topic, or share something that I think
is useful or even just fun and you know, slightly
entertaining or and so I feel very lucky.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
You know. I think if I.
Speaker 3 (09:17):
Was forced out of the business or you know, consider
too old or whatever it would be that would not
allow me to be on a more traditional media platform, I.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
Would be really sad.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
I mean, I think I would find something else, some
other way I hope to be useful in the world.
But the fact that I can continue doing what I
love to do through a podcast, you know, talk to
interesting people like you or Renee Fleming about how music
impacts your brain, or Jim Vanda High on his really
smart book about how to be a better employer and
(09:54):
an employee. You know, I'm insatiably curious, and I'm just
so grateful that I have an outlet for that. Still yes,
so that's that's the positive. And gosh, I don't know,
that was a great, big honking question you asked me, Sophia.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
What was the other part.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
I just really jumped in off the high dive. Well
that was it, you know, because I think sometimes especially
women like us who are so curious and who love
fact finding and we love to understand how these things
fit into the greater puzzle of society, life around.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
And learn, I think we love to learn too.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Yes, yes, I really think that's one of the things
that always inspired me as a fan. And then when
we became friendly and you know, I got to call
you a friend, I was like, oh my god, that's it.
It's curiosity. But sometimes I think curiosity can lead to
a bit of overwhelm because you do learn all the
big scary facts. You read all that data. You understand
(10:59):
that people are struggling, or that these things are having
negative impacts on teenagers, or you know, all the stuff
we all read about, and so I just also love
to know what as such a brilliant woman who is
so informed keeps you hopeful, and you know, it's not
lost on me as you talk about these avenues opening
(11:21):
up and you mentioned gatekeeping. So many of these upper echelons,
whether it's you know, news, media, reporting business, they've held
women out for so long. And I remember from the
first time you came on the show, you talking about
how watching Mary Tyler Moore really inspired you to want
to be in the news. And I really get a
(11:42):
kick out of that because same nick at night re
runs are my favorite thing to watch with my parents,
And I think about what Mary Tyler Moore would think
if she could see how for all of its faults
these the democratization of voice and platform has particularly allowed
so many women to flourish. It's a really incredible thing.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Well.
Speaker 3 (12:07):
I think also, you know, more traditional forms of media
have recognized that the people who are talking about issues
or delivering the news need to look more like the
people who are watching it. And I think as demographics
have changed, as you know, there's going to be a
(12:28):
majority minority population in this country by twenty forty four,
but as the country's gotten more diverse and as women
have made strides, I think they have recognized that these
platforms are not the purview of just singularly white men.
And I'm very heartened when I not only look at
(12:51):
all these platforms where gosh, I'm amazed at how talented
people are. By the way, Sophia, this is just a
little quick sidebar. I'm just amazed at the people I
see were incredible artists or they can make clothes or
they I mean, they're so much talent out there. I'm
(13:12):
so thrilled that people have this outlet for expression. I
think they always did, but now they're able to share
their passion with so many people. I'm like, wow, look
at what this person did. Look a look at this
cake that this person decorated. Nava, you know, Frosted by
(13:35):
Nava is one of my favorite follows. She's i'sak Perlman's
daughter and she was I think a pianist or violinist,
I can't remember, but she just decorates cake full time
and she is an incredible artist and the creations are
just beautiful. So anyway, that's my little sidebar. But I
(13:55):
do feel like like voices that weren't heard, you know, Gosh,
I just I think you not only as I said,
look at these platforms. You look at news outlets and
cable networks, and goodness, it's so much more diverse. And
I think that we've come a long way since I
(14:17):
got into the business in nineteen seventy nine.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Absolutely, absolutely right.
Speaker 3 (14:25):
I mean I look back sometimes I look at old
photos when I was at the Today Show and I'm
the only woman, yeah, you know, in the whole group.
And now you look at the Today Show and it's
just chok, a block full of women. And so I
think so much has changed, and I think it's a
(14:47):
good thing. And by the way, I like diversity of
all kinds. You know, I like to have male energy there,
I like to have female energy. I like to have
people from different backgrounds. I think sometimes we don't appreciate
so economic diversity enough. You know, people who grew up
in certain circumstances and understand how people are struggling, or
(15:10):
appreciate certain things that other people may not. Or people
come from rural environments, and you know, I think that's
really important too. So I'm very gratified when I look
at how things have changed.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
We'll be back in just a minute after a few
words from our favorite sponsors. I even think about, you know,
a as a younger woman watching you know so many
of you, that really example set for me, you know,
(15:52):
knowing I wanted to study theater, but for whatever reason,
deciding to pursue my desire to study journalism at the
same time. I'm in college. You know, I looked up
to women like you and Diane Sawyer and Barbara Walters.
You know, there were there were these people I could
look at. You know, even in elementary school, I begged
my mom to pick me up fifteen minutes before the
(16:15):
bell so I could make it in time, so I
could make it home in time for Oprah to start.
You know, like you just great. You all set these
incredible examples for me. And then I think about in
my own career. You know, in the early days, bosses
that really wanted to pit the women against each other,
and they didn't want us to be friends. They didn't
(16:36):
want us to like band together to make demands. And
I think about that even you know, back in the day,
I remember hearing the you know, whisperings, rumblings whatever that
you know, Katie Kurk and Diane Sawyer have a rivalry,
And I'm like, you did that or was that just
the media not understanding that there were two of you?
Speaker 2 (16:55):
No, you know, I've been.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Thinking of silly.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
I've been thinking about this a lot because you know,
they're doing a documentary about Barbara Walters. Yes, and I
was talking to the director of the documentary. I think
this is so interesting because you know, a lot of
industries are competitive, and it's okay to be competitive, Like
(17:23):
I applaud Barbara and Diane and me and Connie Chung
and Peter Jenny's and Dan Rather and Tom Brokaw and
all these people who are sort of my generation. They're
a little teeny bit older than I am. But you know,
a lot of you know, if you're a journalist, it
(17:46):
is competitive. You know, you want to break the story,
you want to get the big interview.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
And somehow there's a double standard because the men are
very competitive too. But somehow, now when you put women
in competitive situations, it's called, you know, a cat fight.
There is no commensurate term for men or competitive. And
(18:13):
believe you me, Sophia, they are extremely intensely competitive. Yes,
so I find it interesting and I don't think, you know,
it's just I struggle with this and I'm still obviously
trying to figure it out. But how can you be
competitive and supportive at the same time. It's sometimes difficult,
(18:36):
and I don't think we ever have conversations about that
women have the added burden of being competitive, trying to
get ahead in their own business, but also supporting other
people other women. Now, I sometimes wonder do men have
that added burden being competitive, and yet they're supposed to
(19:00):
support all the people they're competing against. It's somewhat confusing
to me.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
I love that you're talking about this, and I think
a perfect framing. Honestly, I just did an interview about
this yesterday. You know, as one of the owners of
Angel City, I talk a lot about women's sports, and
I was talking about this because to your point, you Barbara, Diane,
(19:27):
Connie Oprah like rare air, top tier women in your field,
and the men you mentioned, Peter Jennings and Tom Brokaw,
those arenas are all competitive, as you say, but the
men are able to compete and be professional, ballsy, cutthroat
(19:49):
even but women get called rivals. And I'm seeing this
really played out because we are experiencing this gorgeous moment
where there are so many eyeballs on women's sports. Finally,
we're all like, welcome to the party, you're late. But
you see these people who clearly have never watched a
(20:09):
WNBA game, for example, flipping out that you know, Caitlin
Clark got checked on the court and they're saying, well,
they've never these women. They're being vicious, they're jealous of her.
She got a shoe contract, And I'm like, do you
all know how much less money these women's contracts that
are so few and far between are than any of
the men's. Like, you're focused on the wrong things. We're
still not quite getting to equity. And what it says
(20:31):
to me is you didn't look at footage of Stewie's
early career, or Candice Parker or Lisa Leslie or any
of the women who paved these roads into the w
And for some reason, these women that are literally the
best female athletes in the country, who are out competing
on courts like gladiators, are essentially being told they're being
(20:54):
too hard on each other. And it's it's like, they
literally play physical sport for a living. What are we doing.
Speaker 3 (21:02):
I think it's this deep seated gender, gendered perspective that
is baked into us from the almost the get go.
You know, when we start being socialized, when we start
consuming media, when we start you know, receiving these messages
(21:23):
and making these connections. There's a professor at Harvard who
teaches in the at school, Masarin Banagi. I think I
interviewed her for an hour I did on gender inequality
in Hollywood and Silicon Valley, and she was talking about
how our brains, when they're extremely new and still developing,
(21:45):
we make these associations, you know, so we associate moms
with cooking or taking care of the house, and dads
with working, and now more moms working. But just sort
of these messages on society and gender roles are are
are so baked into our almost our every cell of
(22:08):
our brains that when we see things that seem antithetical
to that kind of socialization, it freaks people out. And
so I think seeing women compete in sports is something
unbelievably relatively new for a lot of people. And when
(22:31):
they see women being tough and as you said, checking
and doing all the things that you do when you're
a competitive athlete, it almost trips people up in terms
of their expectations. So I still think we're we're in
a transitional period for opening up so many avenues for
(22:56):
women or people of color or and and it it
just almost messes with our greatconceptions in a way, if
that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
Yes, And do you think, you know, having had to
thread that impossible to thread needle of being the best
at what you do and yet somehow never getting in
anybody's way, do you think that social media to sort
of come back around to the beginning, this opportunity to
create this whole new space for yourself to continue your
(23:28):
career without having to be, you know, handcuffed to one
of the Big three or whatever it may look like
in the landscape today. Do you think in a way
that helps you undo some of those misconceptions, you can
you can be exactly who you are. You can be
brilliant and want to watch silly dog videos, and you
can talk to people about gender inequality and also some
(23:53):
you know, cool new play that you saw. In a way,
you get to be more yourself because you can be
more of a whole.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
I think so.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
I mean, I felt very much free to be who
I was when I was at the Today Show, less
so when I was doing the CBS Evening News, where
I think I had to fit into a much smaller
box being a serious, credible news person. And I think
I've always been very multi dimensional, you know, I think
(24:25):
media it's tempting to well, you know this, Sophia put
people in a box like as a type, right, and
I think it is very hard or or it was
hard for people understand to understand kind of the whole
breadth of the person, especially in news, because I think
women were trying so hard to be taken seriously and
(24:48):
be credible. And I think on the Today Show I
was allowed to really let my freak flag fly and
be kind of who I was, you know, goofy and fun,
but also hard hitting and serious when it was required.
And I feel like social media I'm just kind of
an extension of that. And what's great for me having
my own company and being able to shine a light
(25:11):
on various issues and being selective about it. You know,
I have a lot of freedom and I don't have
to appeal to someone. Can I please do a story
on this? Or don't you think we what about a
story on this now. I did have a lot of
authority when I was at CBS because I was the
managing editor and I could say, hey, I want to
(25:33):
do a series on dating violence.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
You know.
Speaker 3 (25:37):
It was after Yardly Love, who play Lacross at Uva
was beaten to death by her then boyfriend, and I
wanted to do it, and I wanted to do more
stories where women were at the center of the story.
And I was able to do that, and I feel
really proud that I was able to do that. But
I think for me now, I don't you know, what
(26:00):
I don't have to do, which I'm so grateful for,
is play politics. I don't have to suck up to people,
and I don't have to be coy or cute or
you know, basically you know, like I like I had
to do. For example, at sixty Minutes, there was this
whole environment where the people in charge were guys, and
(26:24):
I would it was just really hard and that is exhausting,
and I'm really not good at it. I'm kind of
not a political person. I treat the security guard the
same way I treat the CEO, Like it's just not
in my nature to suck up to people. And I
(26:46):
just hate when I see people doing that. It's so
distasteful to me. And I think that's one of the
best things is because you know, it's the company has
my name on it and I'm partially running the show
along with my husband. That I had the freedom to
pursue what I want to pursue without having to kind
(27:10):
of beg to do it, or without being disappointed that,
you know, my story idea was given to somebody else
because the guy in charge didn't like.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
Me, right, Oh oh the.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
Worse so annoying.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
It's so annoying, And I'm with you. I just I
don't have that in me. I know people who are
very good at playing the game, and they're always networking
and they're building relationships and hosting a dinner party with
the influentials. So I don't know how they do it.
I don't have the energy.
Speaker 3 (27:42):
Well, I think sometimes, I mean, I think you, I mean,
I think it depends what you're guided by. You know,
if you're guided by what can that person do for me?
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Is one thing.
Speaker 3 (27:55):
But if you're guided by, oh, this person is really interesting,
has a lot to offer, and I'm curious about what
they're doing, and you know, if it comes from that
authentic place, yeah, I think it's fine. I think it's
when there's a power dynamic where you have to you know,
(28:16):
where you have to be subservient and emphasize your subservience
in order to get in order to be treated a
certain way. That's what I can't do, and I don't
think you'd be very good at it either.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
I'm definitely not. I actually think that's sort of that
curiosity and the desire to just to just explore it
with fascinating people is that's what led me to start
my podcast. I thought, hold on, I can create a
job where I get to sit for an hour with
people I absolutely admire and just ask them questions. That
(28:57):
sounds like the best thing ever.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
You have the best podcast voice on the planet. Oh,
You're honest, you have the greatest voice.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
I love it. I love how raspy it is.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
Oh, thank you. Well, look who's talking? I mean you
you your podcast? I love so much for our friends
at home. Next question with Katie Couric. If somehow you've
been living under a rock and you haven't heard it
yet is so stupendous. Did did that feel like a
natural extension, as you were mentioning earlier, of that fully
(29:30):
embodied you that you got to be on the Today Show?
Or or was it something else? Was there some next
ways of curiosity for you too?
Speaker 3 (29:40):
I think it's just the freedom that a podcast affords
to you. Know, you can say, gosh, I really want
to talk to the writers from Hacks. Yeah, you know,
I mean this is a shameless plug to get them
to hopefully one of them is listening. You know, I
don't want to talk to the stars. I want to
talk to the writers, one of the writers.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
This is absolute kismeth that you said this, because the
writers of Hacks are two of my oldest friends who
were my very first roommates in my home, and they
are now married to each other. And the fact that
of anyone you could pick, you said those two. I'm
absolutely going to have my producers clip this little audio
(30:22):
segment and I'm going to text it to them after this.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
So you got to help a sister out because I
got you.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
I think they are I love that show. I think
it's so clever. I think writers are so important and
so underappreciated.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
I do you know.
Speaker 3 (30:40):
I mean, they're the brains behind the operation. They are
what makes you know they make brilliant television. So yes, okay, good,
But anyway, what I was saying is like, I just
love the fact that now I can't get everyone, Like
right now, I'm trying to get Joe Biden to do
an interview with me, both on video and in podcast form,
(31:04):
and that's the beauty of it, you know, you can
do kind of iterate the content for different platforms and
the way people like to consume content. And so far
they are not they're not saying yes yet. But I
haven't given up hope. But it's just like wow, I
(31:25):
you know, this woman wrote a book called sociopath, How
fascinating she is one, and she went to school to
learn more about the condition.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
And I'm going to talk to her. So I think
it's like cue. It just felt like.
Speaker 3 (31:41):
Sublime freedom to be able to talk to whoever you
want in a way that you hope will be instructive
and entertaining for other people. Right, it can't be completely
self indulgent, but if you're passionate and interested in someone,
that will show and I think that will make it
(32:01):
more interesting for the listener.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
Yeah, we'll be back in just a minute. But here's
a word from our sponsors. And I do find it
in an ever more polarized world that there's something about
these conversations that can really turn the temperature down and
remind people that we're all just trying to figure this
(32:24):
out together.
Speaker 3 (32:26):
I hope, So, you know, I hope so it's it's
very hard. It's you know, we have become everything has
become so personal and so full of vitriol and anger
and grievance that gosh, it's it would be so nice
(32:49):
to be able to find that common ground between and
among people where because I do think, I don't know,
the tribalism is really disconcerting to me, this division that
exists in our country, and I think people who disagree
(33:11):
with policy should be able to have civil conversations about them.
I think what's hard is these media ecosystems have created
echo chambers, and I think the worst, the least flexible
side of us just gets almost calcified by hearing what
(33:40):
we want to hear over and over and over and
over again. And I remember I got in trouble on
Bill Mark because I said after the insurrection that I
thought some people needed to be deprogrammed, and I got
roundly criticized by the side that I was saying needed
to be deprogrammed. But I think kind of we all do,
(34:01):
We all kind of need to be deep programmed because.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
We're just getting.
Speaker 3 (34:06):
You know, reinforced, and our minds are closing to other
ways of looking at things or at least understanding that
people might look at a situation differently.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
Well, what also really worries me is the refuting of facts.
You know, while I do believe that the silos are
bad for everyone, I will say there's only one side
erecting gallows at the Capitol in Washington, d C. You
know these The effect of this sort of vitriol and
violence is I wouldn't say evenly distributed.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
Yeah, And you know.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
What scares me is that the facts are ceasing to matter.
You know, I was, as I do because I like
to post about the news a lot. I was sharing
about the day that the former president was indicted, you know,
guilty on all thirty four felony counts. That is an
unbelievable sentence to utter out loud. And I had someone
(35:00):
respond to me and say, it's the federal juries are
all rigged. And it was you know, twelve liberals that
convicted him. And I'm like, it's not a federal jury.
This isn't happening at the DOJ. This is happening in
a state court. And by the way, one of the
jurors that Donald Trump's defense team handpicked was a woman
who said she only one gets her news from Truth
(35:22):
Social She's a huge fan of the former president, and
she voted guilty on all thirty four counts. Sir, this
isn't some quote liberal conspiracy. This is the justice system.
The guy is a criminal, I know, and that's just it.
Speaker 3 (35:38):
It's so troubling when you see these these institutions that
really are the underpinning of our democracy. Yes, get not
even ridiculed, but disrespected and dismantled in a weird way.
(36:01):
But no, I totally hear you, and yes it is.
It is really really troubling. I think there are people
on the fringes that have very loud voices and sometimes
drown out people who are in the more sensible middle.
Speaker 1 (36:22):
And more willing to listen to each other.
Speaker 3 (36:24):
Yeah, and I think that's a shame. Jonathan, he wrote
an article in The Atlantic that you probably read, Sophia,
but if you haven't, your listeners should as well call
why the last ten years have been uniquely stupid? And
it talks about the percentage of people the voices on
social media are really at the ends of the spectrum,
(36:48):
and they take I think they they take up so
much oxygen and an inordinate amount of space that I
think sometimes we get the wrong ession of what most
Americans are thinking and what most Americans believe. So that
(37:09):
gives me some degree of solace. But but you're right,
and it's almost like a cancer that you know, people
start starts repeating this stuff and then it almost becomes
contagious and then impressionable people will then kind of absorb
(37:34):
that and reflect that back out to the world. And so, yes,
I agree with you one hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
Well so going into I mean, you know it is
as you said, the last ten years, certainly, but this
year is an election year, and you know, again this
can kind of be like the beginning right where everything
feels big and heavy and scary. How how do you
stay positive and keep your stress in check? Is it
(38:03):
reminding yourself that there are a lot more of us
that are willing to listen to each other than the
folks on the fringes or do you have some wonderful
secret life hack that you need to tell the rest
of us about.
Speaker 3 (38:15):
Yeah, I mean I get scared and depressed, I do,
and anxious, but I am constantly reminded of good people
out in the world. Honestly, I see people at a
grassroots level doing things for other people. I see people
teaching migrants from West Africa English in the park. I see,
(38:42):
you know, my friend friends Brian Wallack and Sondra Opraaviyah.
I just executive produced a documentary about them. He's dealing
with als and yet they're changing the face of the
disease by getting more funding and forming a community of
people and making a blueprint for others who have so
(39:03):
called rare diseases.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
You know. So I actually maybe I'm.
Speaker 3 (39:08):
Just uh, you know, hardwired for happiness and optimism. But
I do think that most people are really good people.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
I actually do.
Speaker 3 (39:20):
I think they're really nasty, mean people with the who
are ignorant and.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
You know that.
Speaker 3 (39:29):
I think they they're loud, but I do think they're
in the minority. I think that's what keeps me positive
for the most part. But I'm honestly, I'm I'm concerned
about our country. I'm concerned about our values. I'm concerned
about our moral compass.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
Yes, And.
Speaker 3 (39:53):
It's perplexing to me. I don't know if it's an
indictment of the media. I don't you know, which has
become so bifurcated. I think that, you know, I don't
know whether it's a product of our education system that
isn't emphasizing civics. I don't know if it's a symptom
(40:17):
of loneliness because our community infrastructure just isn't quite what.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
It used to be.
Speaker 3 (40:25):
And perhaps it's social media and iPhones that have made
people more isolated. And you know, I think people who
say things like what you described in your post or
what I get on a regular basis, would never say
it to our faces. And you know, I don't know.
(40:48):
I just feel like everybody is just loaded for Bear
twenty four to seven, and I think it's I think
it's symptomatic of a lot of other societal issues that
are manifesting in this kind of anger and grievance. I
don't know, what the hell do I know, Sophia.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
Well, I get it, and I think the willingness to
sort of analyze and ask the questions is incredibly important.
I think remembering to try to meet people with curiosity
about why they feel what they feel and perhaps what
they're afraid of, could be a great path to you know,
(41:29):
resiliency for us as a community. But I also think
your perspective on this stuff speaks to your resilience as
an individual. You know, as Katie, you have managed over
and over again to you know, throughout your career and
your personal life, choose optimism and resilience. You've modeled that
(41:52):
for people in ways that you know, in my own
relative understanding of what it's like to be a person
who lives life publicly and sometimes begrudgingly publicly like it's
not easy. And you have been through such incredible success
and wins and loss and humanity in your life. I mean,
(42:13):
you mentioned that you built this new company with John,
you know, your lovely husband, who is such a wonderful
human And I love the way you smile when people
talk about him to you, and I love seeing the
way that the two of you managed to seesaw between
the personal and professional. You're this beautiful, you know, unit
(42:33):
you're an inspiring pair. And the world also knows that
before John came into your life, your first husband, Jay
passed away. You had to process that loss and his
illness in public in real time. It I just it
(42:55):
takes my breath away when I think about it for you,
and to not only have to go through that, but
then to courageously and resiliently pursue love after loss, find
your phase two, your second wave of joy. Like the
swings that you have experienced as a human being are inspiring,
(43:18):
but then to do them on the world stage, It's like,
I think part of the reason you can look at
people and also the planet with such optimism is because
you've learned that so personally and you reflect it out
into the world around you.
Speaker 3 (43:34):
But I also think that's very sweet of you, by
the way. I mean, I try, But I also think
maybe what's in short supply is empathy. Yeah, you know,
like seeking to understand why certain people feel a certain
way and how they have been culturally conditioned. Now, remember
(43:54):
I did an hour for National Geographic a few years
ago on all these thorny social issues, and one of
them was on white anxiety, and I really examined changing demographics,
as I mentioned, to have a majority minority population by
twenty forty four, and obviously much more diversity in this country.
(44:18):
And I remember talking to some gentlemen and they lived
in a small town in Nebraska, and they were very
upset that there was like a Mexican Pride Day, and
you know, their point was, you know, we're from Germany
or we're from Poland originally, but you know, we're Americans first,
(44:41):
and I think we've seen it anyway. I don't know
why I'm talking about this, but I think it's interesting
because we've seen a real shift in a change from
assimilation right to I think, preserving one's national like identity.
And as we've become a nation of immigrants, people also
(45:02):
are gravitating to people in their communities, and there is
I think less and I'm not making a value judgment
either way, but less assimilation. So I was trying to
understand where these people who were upset about the Mexican
Pride Day or whatever it was, and the people who
wanted to, you know, be proud of their cultural heritage.
(45:29):
And I just think that change is hard, right, Change
is hard for people. And I think the more we
can talk about change, and the more we let down
our guard and drop the walls between us, the more
we can. And I've always felt like Sophia, if you
understand a problem, then you can fix it. But if
(45:52):
you don't kind of unravel what's causing the adjuta or
the stress or the anger, then you're not going to
be able to address it. But so I was trying
to be empathetic to these people who are like, gosh,
change is hard.
Speaker 2 (46:10):
You know, this is not how we felt about the country.
Speaker 3 (46:17):
And you know, so I think empathy is a really
important component to kind of getting to the bottom of
some of these strong, hard feelings that people are having.
Speaker 1 (46:29):
Sure, and now a word from our sponsors who make
this show possible. And I think also to be willing
to acknowledge what people underneath that might feel they've lost.
(46:51):
You know, for example, when my grandmother immigrated through Ellis Island,
you know, to America from Italy with her parents and
the rest of her family, you know, times were different.
You were meant to assimilate my grandmother, forbade my great
grandparents from teaching my mother Italian once my mom was five.
(47:13):
It just was not allowed because they needed to be American.
And so in one generation, my mother lost her language,
you know, she lost her tether to her heritage.
Speaker 2 (47:25):
Right, and now.
Speaker 1 (47:27):
That is such a source of sadness for my mom
and for me, But for my grandmother it was imperative.
Speaker 2 (47:34):
But isn't that interesting how you seeing that kind of
big shift.
Speaker 1 (47:38):
Yes, but I think because we were so lucky we
have more information than ever. We understand more psychology than ever,
We have more access to therapy than ever. We I
believe currently are more capable of holding the dialectics multiple
truths at the same time. I believe if my grandmother
were alive today, she would be really inspired to know
(47:59):
that I'm trying to learn Italian. But I can understand
how if you'd gone back then and you had interviewed
her in the way that you interviewed these people, she
would have been in a panic because her greatest fear
was not fitting in. Her greatest fear was the othering
of her children, the denial of opportunity based on a
sense of other. And I think it's hard when you
(48:22):
have been told that unless you assimilate, you will be other,
and then you get to see people coming behind you
who get to be both. It's actually probably painful. Your
anger is probably a mask for the way you feel
a little bit cheated. And if we could open that dialogue,
I think it would be I think it would be
so exciting. Those are the dialogues like if I had
(48:45):
it my way and I could just hop in like
an airstream for the next you know. However, many months
until the election I'd just drive around and talk to people,
be like, let's have a barbecue and talk like I
really want to know.
Speaker 2 (48:58):
You should do that. That would be awesome, wouldn't that.
Speaker 1 (49:00):
Be so cool? Yeah, well maybe we'll go together. Well,
let's call let's tell John, let's get the personal hat
on or the professional hat on for your your personal
professional partnership at home and tell your husband that we
have a story idea and says you're the boss. We
can probably get it done.
Speaker 3 (49:18):
See in a few months, we're going We're getting in
our airstream and we're going to go for barbecues all
across the country. You know, I honestly feel like a
group of people needs to do that. You know, I
think it would be it would be amazing. It's interesting
that you talk about thinking dialectically, because yes, on the
(49:42):
one hand, I think you're right. On the other hand,
I think that has been lost. You know, in this
very binary you have to be four or against. You
have to be pro this or pro that, and that
you can't say yes. And my daughter's twenty is very funny.
She has this group called the Divas for Dialectical Thinking,
(50:05):
and they meet I think they meet every week and
they talk about current events, and they've been really focused
on what's happening in Israel and Gaza and talking to
rabbis and talking to historians and talking to Palestinian scholars
and really trying to educate themselves. And you know, I
(50:28):
think it is I don't know why everyone, I guess.
I guess you can feel very strongly, and I'm not
saying you can't, but I think that sometimes we have
to understand and have empathy for both situations and appreciate
(50:51):
that something can be true. And yes, I don't know
if that's making any sense, but it does. That's sort
of how how I feel. And I guess as a journalist,
I've been trained to try to understand different perspectives, and
not necessarily. I mean, I do feel strongly about reproductive rights,
(51:13):
and I feel strongly about stricter gun laws. You know,
there are certain issues I feel comfortable saying I think
I believe this, But I do try to in my
role give various perspectives to hopefully achieve a deeper understanding
of issues.
Speaker 1 (51:34):
I think that's so incredibly important, and and you know,
I think you have to. You have to try to
figure out how these how these things happen and how
these generational conflicts play out. And really for me, I mean, Isabelle.
Speaker 2 (51:51):
Wilkerson's work Oh Love changed.
Speaker 1 (51:54):
Everything for me understanding you know, the research on cast.
Speaker 2 (51:58):
That she did so the warmth of other sons Oh
my god, I mean.
Speaker 1 (52:03):
What a book. But really for me beginning to understand,
for example, the conflict you're referring to in the Middle East,
to finally have the aha facts of you have two
populations who have been some of the worst victims of
caste in the world going through this cyclical, horrible experience
(52:30):
of you know, back and forth pain and outside influence
and outside trauma and genocide, and I mean it is
just it helped me understand. Oh, this is part of
why this is so hard to solve in a moment,
because of the way this fluidity of caste has harmed
(52:52):
over and over and over again. And the way she
explained it that has really burned itself in my brain
is that if you envision a house, cast is the foundation,
the terrible foundation of other and willingness to commit violence
and willingness to harm the other. That every room that
(53:12):
is an ism or a phobia is built on so sexism, racism, homophobia, classism,
all all of.
Speaker 2 (53:21):
These anti semitism.
Speaker 1 (53:23):
Anti semitism, transphobia, you know, islamophoses, islamophobia, all of it.
That these isms and phobias are the rooms that are
the shape shifters of the oppression caused by caste. And
I went, I finally get it. I have I have
(53:47):
tried to study for almost twenty years now the interconnectedness
of all of these systems and pull at the thread
of how this happens to us, Why gender violence exists,
Why in places where there is environmental devastation, it typically
makes gender violence worse. Why certain things happen when migration
(54:08):
or demographics change. And I always I got it. I
was like, I see this and this and this, I
see the domino effects. But to understand the floor has
been such a revolutionary thing for me. And when you
begin to make space for those dialectics, as you mentioned
to say, all of this can be wrong, all of
(54:29):
these things can be true. When you see the exercising
of the viciousness of cast you go, oh, we have
so much more work to do. And I feel partially
again to circle all the way back to the beginning,
so unbearably lucky despite all its faults, to be in
(54:50):
this technological era because I get to have this conversation
with you. At the beginning of season three of this show,
I got to interview Ava Duverne about turning the Passed
into Origin the film and learn about how you take
this brilliant academic work and turn it into the most
incredible hero's journey story for a woman in a movie.
(55:11):
I was like, how did you do it? How could
you have done this? And it's these conversations that have
shaped my thinking, my presence. And then in a way, Katie,
when you said, you know, there's so many more of
us willing to listen and meet each other in the middle,
I believe personally that I've become so much more willing
(55:32):
to do that personally, professionally, and politically since I started
doing the show, because I've just gotten to know so
many people so much better.
Speaker 3 (55:42):
And do you talk to people with whom you violently disagree, Sophia,
because I think, you know, getting back to our upcoming
airstream trip, let's go. You know, I think I think
you can model conversations. I mean, I should do a
better job of this too, with people who think very differently,
(56:06):
and I mean not everyone, because some I think are
operating in an alternative universe, but to kind of unpack
where someone's coming from beyond sort of the the trump
of it all, but to talk about what lies beneath,
(56:31):
you know, what are some of the pain points and
what are some of the things that may make someone
gravitate towards someone right who maybe we can't understand, but
maybe we would understand, and then in the process of
(56:52):
that understanding be able to address the the you know,
the fundamental is shoes that are kind of separating us,
if that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (57:03):
Yeah. You know what that makes me think a lot
about is the conversation we were having earlier about how
women are expected to compete but also expected to kumbayah
all the time. And my best friends had something really
great to me. She was like, no, we advocate for
women period. We don't associate with women who are unkind
(57:25):
or disingenuous. And I was like, Ah, that's a big thing.
You can work toward gender equity, and you can work
toward closing the lending gap, and you can work toward
equity and equality as a benchmark, but that doesn't mean
you have to be friends with every single woman in
the world, because not everyone's nice man, woman, non binary
(57:48):
person like you know.
Speaker 3 (57:50):
No, I think you're right. I think you're talking sort
of the macro level.
Speaker 1 (57:54):
Yeah, and that's what it is, right, Like this idea
that you're saying, Yes, do I want to have conversation
of the people I don't agree with? Like, have I
through this show become friends with Evan McMullin and Adam
Kinsinger are like people who most folks who consider themselves
progressive might not think. I'd be friends with absolutely, and
I cherish them and their opinions, and I like the
(58:15):
pushback they'll offer to some of my thinking. Do I
want to sit down with someone who, you know, tried
to hang the vice president on January sixth? No? I
do not. Like That's where I'm going to go ahead
and probably draw my boundary. Would I like to talk
to a family member of someone who was there. I would.
I'd like to know their thinking. You know, I think
(58:37):
all the time I'm trying to stretch my willingness while
making sure I'm retaining boundaries. But I don't want my
boundaries to be rooted in petulance. I want them to
be about you know, safety and respect, and as you said,
(58:58):
a at least a willing to agree on facts like
one plus one does in fact, equal to the sky
is not green. You know, some basic facts and then
we can talk about our feelings and our opinions.
Speaker 2 (59:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (59:14):
I think part of it is the the media, the
fragmentation of media and who you're listening to and the
information you're getting, and how it's reinforcing a certain perspective
that isn't accurate. You know you mentioned earlier about or
(59:34):
I was talking about how it's been gratifying to see
more women in important roles and I recently posted this
and I got I saw it on the female quotient.
You know, I was talking about how certain attitudes are
baked in.
Speaker 2 (59:50):
I'm just gonna play this for your listener's rule.
Speaker 1 (59:53):
Oh yes, please, Rick.
Speaker 4 (59:55):
Talk about the dream gap. It's that girl and their
full potential. The scene started at A five. Girls stop
believing they can be presidents.
Speaker 5 (01:00:08):
Stig thinkers, engineers, CEOs, and the list goes, aren't Why
because one else are regularing to believe?
Speaker 4 (01:00:20):
When my eight seven were more likely to think that
boys are smurdered than us, that's ridiculous. We are three
times less likely to be given a science related toy.
Speaker 5 (01:00:33):
That's sad.
Speaker 4 (01:00:34):
And when our parents are twice as likely to google
is my son gifted than is my daughter gifted?
Speaker 2 (01:00:43):
That's not cool.
Speaker 4 (01:00:45):
We need to see brilliant women being brilliant and see
how they got to where they are to imagine ourselves
so what they do, but we can't do it at all. Well, dads, feathers.
Speaker 5 (01:01:01):
And bosses, we need all.
Speaker 1 (01:01:04):
Of you to help mm the dream gap to all
of us.
Speaker 2 (01:01:14):
Oh, I love them, but that's what I was saying.
Speaker 3 (01:01:19):
You know, for all our progress, you know, there are
still these deeply embedded ideas that infiltrate our dreams and
keep them from coming to fruition. And so I think
that's what we need to and that's what I think
people respond to when they see, as you said earlier,
(01:01:41):
people getting checked on the court, or people you know,
behaving in a certain way. It it doesn't jive with
their preconceived notions. And we have to continue to try
to to shatter these myths and these limitations that are
placed on us.
Speaker 2 (01:02:01):
We've gotten very heavy here, Sophie.
Speaker 1 (01:02:04):
We you know what, for me, it feels inspiring because
you just said it. It is a myth, and I
think the more we can disrupt those myths, you know,
the more we can take that old dusty carpet and
you know, throw it over the clothesline and whack it
with a tennis racket, like shake the dust out, change
it up. It feels I don't know, it feels very
(01:02:27):
exciting to me. It feels like part of the work
of our lifetimes, don't you think?
Speaker 2 (01:02:32):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (01:02:32):
And I think you know, to your point when you
left school early to go see Oprah, you know, we
have to see more Oprah's and more Diane Sawyer's and
more Intra Neuis and you know, more Billy Jing Kings,
and I could go on and on and on, but
I think the more we see these people what they say,
(01:02:54):
you know, you can't.
Speaker 2 (01:02:55):
You can't.
Speaker 3 (01:02:55):
If you can't see her, you can't be her. So
you know, again, I think it's, as you would say, Sophia,
a work in progress.
Speaker 1 (01:03:05):
There it is. Well, actually, you lead me to my
very favorite question to ask my guests, Katie, and I'm
so curious to know now for you after you answered
it in season one, what feels like you are work
in progress right now, right here in twenty twenty four.
Speaker 3 (01:03:24):
I think still finding that. I think it's still finding
that balance of doing things that you think are important,
of being useful, of accomplishing things, and also the intangible
(01:03:51):
things like being a good mom and now grandmother because
my daughter just had a little baby boy, and you know,
being a good friend, spending quality time, not achieving, but
just being. I think that's a constant struggle for me.
(01:04:17):
I think I'm pretty good at it, but I'd like
to get better. And I don't know why. I feel
like I always have to be productive, and you know,
I don't think that makes necessarily for a joyful life.
If you're feeling so much pressure to produce, yeah, it
(01:04:38):
takes away time from just being, yeah, enjoying life. So
I would say that's still and I just feel like
I'm very cognizant.
Speaker 2 (01:04:50):
You know, I'm sixty seven.
Speaker 3 (01:04:52):
I'm on the back nine and although my husband says
I'm really more like on the fourteenth hole, I'm like, thanks, honey.
Speaker 1 (01:04:59):
Like that, well done, John.
Speaker 3 (01:05:01):
But I think, you know, there's so many things I
still want to do. You know, I'd like to learn Italian.
I'd like to learn how to be a great cook.
I'd like to learn how to do so many things,
and you know, I just don't have time to do
it all. So I think it's being intentional about how
(01:05:25):
I want to spend my time and with whom doing what.
I still think finding that secret sauce of time allocation
is still something that I'm that I'm working on consciously.
Speaker 1 (01:05:41):
Well, when you've got any tips and my way, cause
me too, sister.
Speaker 2 (01:05:46):
Maybe it's a universal problem for people.
Speaker 1 (01:05:49):
Yeah, yeah, but it's nice when you hear that. You
know your heroes and the people you look up to
are working on it too. You're like, Okay, okay, I'm
not that behind. We're all no, we're all kind of
in it. Yeah, well, thank you so much. I'm so
thrilled to have been able to catch up with you today.
I love ye, me too, and.
Speaker 3 (01:06:08):
I so appreciate how how thoughtful you are and how
eloquent you are. I like language, and I like words,
and I really love when people express themselves in a
way that is you know, that's that's in a way
(01:06:35):
that I'm not doing right now, the way that that
you know is eloquent and almost poetic and expresses exactly
you know, chooses the right word to express what they're saying.
I really appreciate and admire that, and I think you
do that.
Speaker 1 (01:06:54):
Thank you so much, Katie. That means a lot to
me coming from you, and I'm so thrilled about everything
that's you know coming up. I absolutely love next question.
And I know our listeners, all of our whipsmarties out.
Speaker 2 (01:07:10):
There will read our newsletter.
Speaker 1 (01:07:12):
Oh the newsletter is so good.
Speaker 3 (01:07:15):
Sign up at Katiecurrek dot com. You know, we have
so many great writers and journalists working on it every
day and I'm so I'm so grateful and proud of,
grateful for and proud of them. And we try to
we try to help people understand this crazy world. And
(01:07:36):
I think we're we're making a big contribution.
Speaker 2 (01:07:39):
In that department. So and then we have a lot
of fun stuff, you know, John has.
Speaker 3 (01:07:44):
Fathers Day's gift ideas and and you know, so it's
not all super heavy, but I feel like you can
really kind of get caught up and understand the world
so you can move on to living your life if
you just open our newsletter every morning. And that's sort
of the goal. You don't want to be the dumb
(01:08:05):
one at the water.
Speaker 1 (01:08:06):
Cooler, you know, oh God, the horror.
Speaker 3 (01:08:09):
And thanks for everything you're doing, and I hope I
get to see you in person soon.
Speaker 1 (01:08:15):
All right, my dear, I'll send you a note and
we'll find a.
Speaker 3 (01:08:19):
Time that would be awesome. Okay, thank you for today
Host
Sophia Bush
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