Work in Progress: Lena Waithe

Lena Waithe spent her childhood watching classic '90s sitcoms, dreaming of one day becoming a writer — and she made it happen! The Hollywood powerhouse made history as the first Black woman to win an Emmy for comedy writing for "Master of None" and is the creator of several shows, including "The Chi."

The Emmy-winning writer, actor, producer, and podcast host shares with Sophia the invaluable advice she got in college that set her on the path to success, the writers that influenced her, what it was like when she first got to L.A. without any connections, embracing the things that make you different, and her advice to aspiring writers.

Plus, Lena reveals what inspired her new podcast, Legacy Talk (distributed by Lemonada Media), why she got into the publishing game, and all the details on her company’s first ever children’s book “What I Must Tell the World: How Lorraine Hansberry Found Her Voice” — out now! 

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Hello friends,
Today we are joined by someone that I admire so much,
that I have cherished for such a long time, and

(00:21):
who I think is hands down one of the coolest
human beings that I know. Today's guest on Work in
Progress is none other than Lena Waithe. You know her
as an Emmy winning writer, producer, actor, and the founder
of Hellman Grad. She is known for Master of None,
The Shy Queen, and Slim. Lena's film credits, TV credits,
They just go on and on and on, from winning

(00:45):
awards at Sundance to again being Emmy nominated for documentaries,
Lina did not come to play. She is an incredible
creator in every single sense of the word, which is
probably why she was named one of Time magazines one
hundred most influential people all the way back in twenty eighteen.
She was included on Fast Companies Queer fifty lists in

(01:07):
twenty twenty one and twenty twenty two. Lena just keeps
on winning. Born in Chicago, Illinois, Lena always knew that
she wanted to be a television writer and was lucky
enough to be supported by her family and along the
way discovered that she happens to be a fantastic actor too.
I cannot wait to talk to her about her journey,

(01:28):
her creativity in every single vertical that it touches, and
the ways that she thinks about storytelling and her latest project,
her brand new podcast, Legacy Talk with Lena Waithe, which
is a love letter to black women in entertainment. She
sits down with incredible icons and trailblazers to discuss their

(01:48):
creative process, their journey, and how they became the women
and leaders and artists that they are today. Legacy Talk
really is more than just a series of interviews. It's
a documentation of the stories and experiences of women who
have shifted narratives, broken barriers, and inspired a generation. I

(02:10):
am not surprised that Lena is tackling this latest vertical
with the same curiosity and excellence that she brings to
every single project. Let's dive in with Lena Waithe. Lena,

(02:32):
I'm so happy that you're here today.

Speaker 2 (02:35):
I'm so happy I'm doing this is like my first
thing of the day.

Speaker 1 (02:37):
It is I love that, and you know, I just
love the that of you. I was trying to tell
my producers today. When we jumped on, they were like,
how do you guys know each other?

Speaker 2 (02:47):
And I was like, I, Michelle Obama is where we met?

Speaker 1 (02:51):
Is that where we met for the first time.

Speaker 2 (02:53):
I think that's where we met. Oh god, social before that,
But in terms of meeting, I think was there. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (03:00):
I just remember when like we started getting in the dms,
like chatting about things, and I was like, wait a second.
I really admire this woman as a storyteller, and I
also think I love who she is as a person,
Like are we gonna be friends? And here we are
and I love it.

Speaker 2 (03:17):
And also we have a great mutual for an Alex Edelman,
like the homie.

Speaker 1 (03:21):
The brother, the best, just the yummiest little bro in
the world.

Speaker 2 (03:26):
Ever.

Speaker 1 (03:26):
Yes, I was just like, Okay, So something I find
really fascinating about you because we know a lot of
people that are multi hyphenits, but you are like you
are like a multi hyphen in like an algebra problem
like that you just keep stacking pieces of the equation.
And when I put my you know, interviewer hat on

(03:50):
and started to dig into things about your life, I
didn't know. I had no idea that you always knew
you wanted to be a writer, like since you were
at all? And I ask a lot of the folks
who come on the show because people know you as
you know, public figure or all the things you are.
I always like to see if you could meet your

(04:10):
nine year old self, if you would see who you
are today in that child. And I'm like, well, obviously
you did, because you always knew you wanted to be
a writer. So like, can you tell me where your
interests and your love of storytelling started? Do you have
a moment where you knew or was it always there?

Speaker 2 (04:28):
I mean, I think I grew up watching a lot
of TV as a kid. Being in the nineties, it
was sort of like a Heyday for TV. I think
from young people you know what to be tgif you know,
Full House, Family Matters, step by Step, Charles in Charge,
Small Wonder Out, Empty Nest, you know. And then but

(04:52):
also like there were so many great shows with all
black casts, like Obviously A Different World, which was one
of the biggest influences on me and the Cosby show.
I mentioned Family Matters, Fresh Prince of bel Air was
really Dopehood, which was actually a show that Robert townsended,
which is sort of like his Cosby show, and so

(05:12):
there were just Wayne's brothers. I remember it was a
really cool show. I at least loved watching The Living
Color coming up. So there was just a shmortgage board
of like TV shows and entertainment with really amazing talent.
And I was really inspired and influenced by the kind
of storytelling that was happening. I remember Demolition Man, like
you know, we always say before Black Panther, it was

(05:33):
a little demolish Man, which Robert Townsend did with the
blonde hair and like the superheroes in their own neighborhood
trying to save their neighborhood from evil doers. And we
have had all this stuff, and I think I just
kind of saw that and thought that that was normal
and there was nothing odd about that. And so but
I also grew up watching Oprah win for every Day,

(05:53):
and like you know, and after you know, it's like
being in Chicago knowing that's where she filmed the show
was yet really a source of pride for us, and
I just think it was a really fruitful time and
and for me to be a kid growing up at
my grandmother's house with a single mom, you know, older sister,

(06:15):
I you know, we were last ki kids, so we
would come home and watch television and cook for ourselves
and wait for our parents to get home from work.
And that was actually the time where I think we
were becoming ourselves. Also watching music videos a ton like
being people watching the box, you know what, you could
call and request the music video. You know, that was
sort of our TikTok and Instagram and Facebook. We really were.

(06:37):
It was very analog. I remember I could walk to
the Blockbuster, you know, and I ended up working there
and renting movies. And that's how I remember renting Hoop
Dreams and you know, seeing parents is burning like on
vhs and discovering these things and these treasure trows of
footage and documentation of stories and people and these character

(07:00):
even watching documentaries thinking about who dreams like is like
a real person, But he felt like like a character,
like somebody I knew, being from Chicago, trying to play basketball,
trying to make his family proud. These are just things
that I kind of saw and could relate to, it,
could understand, And I think that was really what the
Seeds were playing it in terms of wanting to tell
stories that felt vulnerable and felt honest.

Speaker 1 (07:21):
Hmm. I love that. Yeah, you know you're making me
realize too that we Yeah, I mean we grew up
in this moment where not to say everything was like
perfect or fixed, but where art was growing in such
a way, these messages of these stories were growing in
all of these beautiful ways. More and more people were

(07:42):
getting to be represented. We're getting to be on TV.
Like I I studied journalism in college because of Oprah.

Speaker 2 (07:50):
Wow, you know, like I didn't know that.

Speaker 1 (07:53):
I you will love this. When I was a kid,
it would take just long enough for me to get
home from school, and like when the years that I
was like eight nine, my mom was picking me up
at that time, and I sat her down and I
was like, Mom, nothing happens in the last period anyway,
And if you pick me up after school ends, I
get home at three fifteen, and I missed the first

(08:13):
fifteen minutes of Oprah, and I learned way more from
Oprah than I learned at the end of the day
at school. So I think you should pick me up
at two forty five. And my mom was like, first
of all, are you going to be a lawyer? Who
do you think you are? And I'm not negotiating with
my young child to leave school early so you can
come home to watch Oprah.

Speaker 2 (08:28):
And I was like, she's my class though, and look
at your guy.

Speaker 1 (08:32):
Yeah, and it's like, I don't know, I think about that,
and I think we were really we were so lucky
to have her as women that are passionate about the
world around us, as storytellers, and we were really lucky
to have all these shows and all these creators that
you're referencing. We I worry for today's kids, like anything

(08:53):
that isn't you know, traditional, I'll do the air quotes
meaning like tip represented by power is suddenly like weaponized
as political and I'm like, maybe it was actually just
dope when everybody got to be on TV, like when
we just told all kinds of different stories about all

(09:15):
kinds of different people. And the nineties really were this
like blossoming moment for a lot of that.

Speaker 2 (09:21):
Absolutely. I mean when you look back at like, you know,
CNN does like a study about the decades and the
nineties one is super obviously fascinating because that was my nostalgia.
But it's true, it was. It was very a fruitful time,
you know, and we're taking risks and music was really dope,
you know, and TV and and and I think but

(09:41):
also I think the Oprah Winfrey Show was something that wow, boy,
did we take that for granted? I think at the time,
just in terms of seeing a black woman on television
being curious and being empathetic and being open to learning something.
You know, she remember the that was like the light
bulb moment. That's what it became, you know, famous, you

(10:03):
know on the show, just the idea of a light
bulb going off above. Yes, oh, I've never thought of
it that way before. That's such an interesting and powerful
thing to say. I'm telling shem Oprah, who we would
think knows all she was as expressing the people. Even
though you think, you know, I'm the leader of the pack,
I'm still learning things with you. You know, I'm still

(10:25):
growing with you.

Speaker 1 (10:26):
Yes, and to make learning something beautiful and something to
aspire to.

Speaker 2 (10:33):
Book club like yeah, like her gathering people to talk
about a book and with the author. I remember like
she had Tony Morrison sent at the table with all
these women and like them talking about her book and
her literature and asking her questions. On television. You know,
that was a real, a real thing and and wow,
I just you know, I miss it sometimes.

Speaker 1 (10:52):
I do too. I wish we could go back. I
ate up life class. When she was like, let me
do this show. That's like the highlight reel of all
my shows.

Speaker 2 (10:59):
I was like, give it, yeah, or masterclass or master
class on own. You don't remember that Maya Angelou episode,
the Dian Carrol episode, the Woopie Goldberg episode. Yeah, And
I think, but I think Oprah did a master class
to her, So I think she did so maybe probably
just a way for us to kind of learn how
these giants became who they were, but also showing you

(11:23):
that giants started out not unlike you, you know, yeah,
listen to their inner voice and walked in their purpose.
I think that's the big thing Oprah was always really
good about, was really sort of telling us, like, the
person that you think is the smartest in the world,
the most accomplishing the world, the wisest, began you know
in the way that you did. You know, Yeah, the
house and unsure and if they had were dealing with

(11:45):
self doubt and not knowing and someone eventually finding their voice,
and so it make sure you sit at home and go, oh, well,
they can do it. You know why not?

Speaker 1 (11:53):
I yeah, do you feel like that's what you were
gleaning in those hours that that kind of incredible time
you got between me and you got home from school
and you know the adults got home. Were you beginning
to see, oh, any kind of insecurity or very human

(12:13):
fear I might have? You know, we all asked that question, like, well,
who am I to do this? Do you think the
lesson was? These people all did it, so I'm going
to try to do it? Like how did you take
the leap?

Speaker 2 (12:25):
I mean, well, I think I wasn't thinking about it
in that way at that time. I think that's what
really great entertainment content, you know, media does where I
think those particularly speak about the master classes that she
would do in a particularly May Angelo. That one really
sticks out of my head. But I think I just

(12:50):
was taking it in. I think I was taking it
in and I was very aware of who my Angelo
was and continues to be in our world, even though
she may not be earthside anymore. I think it was
just important to hear her speak in the talk, and
and I didn't even understand the weight of it then,

(13:14):
because I think in those moments, that's not what you're doing.
And I think that's why, you know, I think it's
not just about images, it's about what are people saying,
what's sort of being conveyed, and because it'll hit people later. Yeah,
so it's important just to you know, just to take

(13:36):
it in.

Speaker 1 (13:37):
Just Yeah, you were, you were having nice afternoons like vibeing,
watching music videos, and now you look back and you're like, oh,
I was, I was taking a master clas ta. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (13:49):
We saw Rosie Rosie O'donald Show two every day at
three o'clock. For us, Oprah was on at nine am
and then in the evening and afternoon Rosie was at
the afternoon like three o'clock. Yet talk shows were a thing,
like it was a it was a big deal. They
still are now, but I don't know, like we used
to watch like the talk shows all the time. Oh

(14:09):
I loved them.

Speaker 1 (14:11):
And now a word from our sponsors who make the
show possible. What were your early days like when you
when you first moved out to LA Like, what what

(14:32):
was the experience like trying to begin to break into
the industry.

Speaker 2 (14:38):
Well, we had some thing called the semester in LA
that Columbia College. I don't know if I think they
still do it. I hope they, But yeah, where I
got to spend a semester, you know, about twelve weeks,
you know, in LA and maybe many people were doing it.
I was sort of inspired. But the advice I got
was make it your last semester, because if you go

(15:00):
and then come back to Chica, I got like, you
kind of lose some of the contacts that you made.
So I took that advice and just got all my
credits lined up and do what I had to do
and spend my final semester in Los Angeles, which was
the best advice ever because I stayed out here and
then went back to that and then came back. But
I didn't I didn't miss a step. And the truth

(15:22):
is I didn't know anybody out here, you know, I
didn't have any contacts, you know. I just wanted to
meet people and get wanted to get to know folks
and wanted to learn and grow. And that was really
I think one of my strong points was that I
really wanted to just meet folks to see what they
were getting into and what they were doing, and if
it aligned with what I was doing, maybe we should

(15:44):
kind of link up and hang out. That's just kind
of how I've always operated, and which is a different
type of operator, you know, and not about what can
I get from you, but rather oh, you're doing the
same thing. You know, we can maybe share information and
see if we can help each other. And I still
rate that way. I think that's sort of how I
like to move. And yeah, and the thing is is

(16:06):
like I think LA is like any other place, you
kind of find your tribe slowly but surely. And then
it was important for me to also hunker down and
really hone my crafts. And I think that's how the
people can get lost in Los Angeles about going to things,
going to events. A lot of panels were happening when
I was first out here, which were amazing. They're not
as prevalent now, but it was good just to go

(16:29):
network and meet people and stuff. So that's what I
was really doing. It was like networking and then eventually
trying to find my voice and get finding jobs I'll
find in my voice and all that kind of stuff.
And I do think the it's changed a bit now
because people the world is smaller. You can kind of
go online and kind of build an audience and build
the following but I think what's sort of happening is

(16:49):
there's not that time to home one's voice, and I
think that's really where people are able to shine. Like
Quinta has a voice, you know, Yes, you know Brian,
the guy who does an English Teacher, he has a voice, yes,
and it's very distinctive. And I think that, to me
is what I hope people are understanding. When you're watching

(17:10):
English Teacher, when you're watching Avid Elementary. They both happen
to be shows that take place in schools and dealing
with teachers, but they couldn't be more different. And really
it's a great example to show folks, is like, that's
what it means to be a writer. You both can
do it in a similar setting, but they both can
feel really different. And that's because both of those show
creators who happen to be in the shows as well

(17:30):
a multi hyphens, they have really found their voice. So
that's why you know when you're watching Abit, you know
when you're watching English Teacher, not just because you o
they're different shows, but because the voices are so unique.
And I think that's why you both of them for
different reasons. And then if you put on twenties or
the shy those that's specific to my voice. And so
I always try to tell writers. I'm like, don't follow

(17:53):
the marketplace, no such thing, and don't try to be
don't try to hit. It's really about what is your voice?
What do you have to say? Say? What is specific
about you? What's a movie that only you can write?
That's why I think this has kind of gone away.
But there was a time where people are so afraid
somebody was going to steal their idea. Yeah, wives tell
about the matrix. You know, it's like I don't want
my I'm like, it's impossible, Like you can take you

(18:14):
know what I'm saying. It's like the idea, but they
can't execute it the way you wult it. So you know.
And also I always tell people like, if you're afraid
somebody's gonna take a idea, you got to start seeing
coming up with a whole bunch of more ideas. You know,
it's only got one. Then I don't know. I love that.
What do you think.

Speaker 1 (18:33):
From this vantage point, because like, there's a lot of life,
there's a lot of work. When you talk about finding
your voice. If a young artist is listening to this
and it's like but how do I do that? Like
from here? How how do you think you would say
to somebody, this would be my my small slice of

(18:55):
a roadmap for you. How do you encourage people because
you're such a great mentor as the writer and producer
that you are. I wonder do you have advice you
like to give people on that?

Speaker 2 (19:08):
Yeah, I try to tell people to watch a bunch
of TV. Watch you know, classic movies. Yeah, that's really important.
I think I always getting nervous when someone tells me
they want to write for TV, but don't watch it.
You'd be surprised people like the show. Have you seen this? No?
I haven't seen that. You haven't seen it. And it's

(19:28):
always sort of like, it's important to know what's working. Yeah,
important to know what's good. I like that, and know
what you don't like if you watch the shows. I
don't like this show? Why not? Why does it? Boy you?
Why doesn't I hold your attention? You know? And then
like I really love this show. Why do you love
the show? Like the characters? What do you like about

(19:51):
the characters?

Speaker 1 (19:52):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (19:53):
Are coming back to it every week. And so the
thing is is like, if you want to create a
show that people love good to know what shows are
out there that people are loving and why and reading
scripts and you know, talking to writers you know that
maybe have written something that you like. There's a sort
of idea that I can do it all by myself

(20:14):
or I don't need somebody else to give me feedback,
or I don't mean like I still give people want
my stuff to read and give me feedback and people
I respect people that I appreciate their opinion, and I
get notes and I incorporate that and the work gets better.
And so I think that's something that people don't often see.
It is sort of think, oh, I just sit down
and write something and give it to something. It's like

(20:36):
now it goes through a bunch of stages of you know,
getting feedback, doing a table read, doing another past, getting
feedback again, and then reading it again and trying it
again and giving it to someone. And so I think
there's this desire this quick, you know, microwave, nuke and
let's go, and it's just no, I mean, I just

(20:58):
I have a you know, I sit down with Debbie
Allen for the finale of Legacy, talk with Mena Waite,
and I'm not like giving away anything too much. But
I asked her, I said, how long did it take
you to get Almostade made? How long? She was like
eighteen years, No, eighteen years.

Speaker 1 (21:17):
I thought, I was like, you telling this story means
she's going to say like ten years, eighteen years.

Speaker 2 (21:22):
Eighteen years and we and I told her, I said,
my school went on a field trip to go see
Almistid Wow and obviously directed by the Gracia the spiel Work,
who obviously I worked, put me in my first feature,
Ready to Play one.

Speaker 1 (21:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (21:40):
But that is something people should understand, is that, like
some things that are really good, and sometimes it takes
a while, and sometimes something comes and it's like it's
pretty quick, like it happens you're like, oh man, okay,
we get this. But I just really want people to
understand that anything worth getting made and getting done and
worth having, often times it's gonna take a be it's

(22:01):
gonna take a while, it's gonna take patience, it's gonna
take you know, it ain't gonna be the first ride.
It's gonna be the thousand. You know, you're still needling
and you're still trying to make it right. And that's
what it is to be a creative. That's what it
is to be a writer. Just because it's never done.
You know, you can always make it better, you can
always make it stronger. And also now mind you as me,

(22:24):
every note you get is right for you, you know.
But I think that's what knowing your voice is that
knowing you're not saying no because you don't want to
do the work or because you're afraid to go in
and see. But maybe if you say no because you
know what, like, that's not the story I'm telling. I
get the note, but that's not the story I'm telling.
If I do that something else, you know, it's like,
but that note enhances the story I'm telling and makes

(22:45):
the story I'm telling even stronger and clearer. So I
appreciate that. And that's that's the big thing too. It
just takes you know, it just takes time to learn
you know, what notes make sense of what notes don't.
But the truth is, because you got to leave your
ego at the door, you know. In a while people,
Me and Gina talked about this on episode Legacy Talk.
She's like, a lot of people give me their material
because they want me to tell them it's great. And

(23:07):
she was like, when I have to get from my material.
She's like, you wanted me just to tell you the truth? Yes,
And she was like, and I did, and you came
back with the new draft and she was like, it's
so rare for people to do that. And I was surprised.
I say it is. She's like, oh yeah, you'll get
somebody down from them again, and so oh yeah, this
happened to me too, Like you know, so that's why
I kind of start to figure out ways. I'm like,

(23:27):
how can I because everybody you know has a has
a thing, and the truth is they just really need real,
honest feedback. And a lot of people don't want honest feedback.
They want to be told this was great and I
wish you well and I hope this becomes a big
hit versus you know, this kind of slowed down from
me in the second act, or these two characters wort
of sound the same, or I got lost here at

(23:48):
the end. Folks don't want to hear that because it's
sort of like, oh, snap, okay, I got to go
back to the drawing board, or I got to like
reoutline this, or I need to you know, go back
in because that's where the writing begins, is the rewriting.

Speaker 1 (24:00):
Right. Well, what I what I'm hearing a lot of
is that you have to have you know, on the
one hand, you're talking about knowing your voice and your vision,
so you have to be able to, as you said,
say that's not the story I'm telling. That is additive
to the story I'm telling. And it like it's the

(24:21):
both and it's like the improv right, It's like, on
the one side, you really got to know what it
is you want to talk about, and on the other side,
you really have to be willing to self interrogate. You
have to be willing to not let your ego lead.
And I think, especially in the world of the constant
refresh right, like the thumb drag on Instagram, everybody wants new, more, now, now, now,

(24:46):
and the patience that this shit takes is not for
the fate of heart, not at all.

Speaker 2 (24:52):
And well, I think that's what I really want people
to understand is that it's a long journey, it's a marathon,
and there is no finish line. Yeah, there's no there there.
And then the biggest suff ice trying to get people
all the time, particularly writers who want to necessarily write,
you know, whether you for television, or for film or playwrights.
Table read, Table read, table read, Get actors, get people,

(25:14):
get writers, get friends, get neighbors, get anybody that's willing
to come to read your work out loud, because I
think a lot of times when you're alone and you're
writing these lines, they feel like Shakespeare. But then when
someone comes in and tries to say it, they can't
get through it because it's really no, that's not kind
to the actor. You know, it's it's fun the writer,

(25:36):
but the actor has a hard time saying. And I
always say, sometimes writers write lines that don't feel comfortable
in actors'.

Speaker 1 (25:43):
Mouths yes and so.

Speaker 2 (25:44):
And that's why for me, when I'm sitting down, I
say the line after I try to say it, I
try to like act like I'm both characters and act
it out and go, oh shit, I'm stumbling over this,
or I'm having a hard time or this isn't And
that's why I think what I've been really grateful for
is that I really try to write dialogue that sounds conversational,
that sounds quy, and that can feel like music. And

(26:07):
so that's what kind of we're pretty tough on our
cast on the shire because I want my voice to
shine through, and so you can't ad lib, you know,
and they don't get to throw stuff in even a
man a huh or this, and that it throws off
the rhythm. And so we always tell the actors, I'm like,
it's you know, for for me and looking, we're gonna

(26:28):
we are season seven next year, and so it's like
people get used to a certain rhythm or a certain
way that these characters or a certain where I'm trying
to find a character, So I need to make sure
every line, every word that comes out like we're establishing them.
We're trying to figure out who this character is. And
so we really do need actors to really say the
lines and to rock with us. And that means it's

(26:49):
even more responsibility on us as the writers in that
table reads, you know, like, hey, is that line too
hard for you to say? Okay, cool, we'll adjust it,
we'll figure it out. We'll try to try to hide
exposition here. So yeah, it's it's it's it's it's a
lot of back and forth. It's trial and error. It's
it's listening, it's paying attention. But again, it's about finding
my unique voice. And it goes from me watching everybody

(27:11):
from Aaron Sorkin's work to Matthew Winer's work, you know,
Judit mad Men, watching watching Gray's Anatomy, you know Seanmes.
You know, it's a big influence as well. So it's
really about every writer has their own obviously watching Spike
Lee movies all the time, but it's a very specific
rhythm to his work. And and yeah, and that's that's

(27:31):
why I always tell people, I'm like, watch the Greats,
watch the Ghosts, listen to what they've done, and then
figure out what your pattern is, what your what your
tone is, what you're what your pacing is, rather than
you know, mimicking, which we all kind of start out doing.

Speaker 1 (27:45):
Yeah, and now a word from our sponsors. Well, and
I love the way you talk to about the rhythm
of something because I know what it's like as an
actor to say, look, the shape of these words don't

(28:06):
fit in my mouth. It Can we tweak this? Can
we can I use this word instead of this one?
And I think if there's a willingness to find it,
essentially what you're talking about, it's like linguistic choreography exactly.
You know, you're making this musical the dance number has
to work, and dialogue can be that beautiful if you

(28:29):
really have leaned into the work.

Speaker 2 (28:32):
Mm hmm.

Speaker 1 (28:33):
I love the way you frame all of that.

Speaker 2 (28:35):
I mean it's like we look at Mike Nichols stuff,
you know what I mean, It's like it's all very
you know, specific, and every word is intentional and so
that's why it's like there's no throwaway lines or words
or glances, and you know, everything has meaning and so
there can always be a conversation after saying, oh, this
isn't work. And also, but I get real, like if

(28:57):
we say a word twice, it's like, always say this
word twice in the sentence, like that was five different work,
or let's take that a second time you say that
out is really I mean, you can get very you know,
in the weeds about it. And that's my favorite kind
of stuff. We like to geek out about it and
make sure a scene really feels like its own little symphony.

Speaker 1 (29:16):
Yeah, that's beautiful. How as you you know, you moved
out very wisely. You used your last semester, well, you
made sure you didn't like create a little environment and
then dip out, which, which, by the way, I get
like I was fortunate. You know, my first show was
on for nine years, but it was on in a

(29:37):
small town in North Carolina. So when people are like, hey,
do you know, I'm like, y'all, I don't really know anybody.
Like I have my friends that I meet in like
our ways where the artists that are the activists come together,
and I'm like, I'll connect you to anybody I know,
but I probably don't know the person you're trying to
talk to.

Speaker 2 (29:57):
Yeah, it's like one of those things I love.

Speaker 1 (30:01):
You know, that's changed a little bit over the more
recent years, but like I love that you had the
wherewithal even as a student to say, oh, I'm going
to make sure I do this well. I'm going to
make sure the rhythm I established for my life here continues.
You know, I know how hard it is for women
in our industry, and you are a brilliant I mean, like,

(30:25):
I just I think you are a genius. But like,
let's be real, this is also America and you are
a black, queer woman.

Speaker 2 (30:32):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (30:32):
Do you think you've just had such a strong vision
and voice that there was no way anything was going
to get in your way? Or were you able to
see the obstacles that so many women and so many
women of color and so many queer folks in our
industry face and just say like, that's not going to
catch me, that's not going to slow me down.

Speaker 2 (30:53):
Like.

Speaker 1 (30:54):
Because you've done it. And I just like knowing all
the things that get added onto the inhibitors list in
an industry like ours. For you, I'm like, how'd you
do it? Tell all the queer babies how to do it?

Speaker 2 (31:11):
Well, Look, it's it's it's all about perception, because it's
about and if you see being black and being a
woman and being queer as something that'll hold you back,
it will. And so for me, they the three things
the way in which I was born. It's almost like

(31:33):
taking credit for being right handed, but it's they really
propelled me forward because I'm not all these things. I
don't think ase these casts me to play. He doesn't
switch it up and go actually more interesting?

Speaker 1 (31:52):
Right? Yeah? Does he see you? Does Spielberg see you
like you?

Speaker 2 (31:57):
F're like you're interesting? Yeah? You know, and I haven't
really seen you before. And clearly I women like myself
have existed, you know, theod's masks, aggressive, whatever you want
to call us, we exist have always had, but I

(32:22):
came along at a time where people were willing to say, Okay,
we'll give you, you know, the space. And people that
did do that were Alan Yang A Zas in terms
of putting me in front of the camera. Yeah, Michael
Shure as well, and then obviously Steven Spielberg and Allison

(32:43):
and also credited Alison Jones, who is really should take
most of the credit for my acting career, because she
saw the pilot presentation for twenties, which I was not
in but thought was interesting, and asked me to come
to our office and I did, and I sat across
from her. We had a wonderful conversation about just TV
and the history of it, and she just asked me

(33:05):
if I had I have any interest in being on
camera and I said I haven't, and she said, okay, well,
let he's bring you in for some stuff here and there,
and she did. Career really began and so and that,
and that was really her kind of having you know,
this is a white woman who has been doing this
for EON's. I mean, she cast freaks and geeks, she

(33:26):
cast she cast fresh Prince Bell that like she's someone
who can look at somebody and go, I think you
should be on television, and she did that, and so
I think, but that happened by me doing my writing thing,
by me saying people don't really get what twenty's is.
So justin Simeon, who was just over here yesterday, who
created Dear White People, he was like, yo, I did

(33:49):
a pilot. I did a we did a fake trailer
for Dear White People, And he was like, let's do
a pilot presentation for twenty so people can see what
you're doing. Put it on YouTube. Put it on YouTube.
And Alison Jones saw, you know, and she was like,
who made this? And I went in and sat with
her and she started bringing me in for stuff and
she's when Alice when disease was like, who should I meet?

(34:11):
Who should be in this show? Like you should meet
me away, Damn, that's so cool. That's the thing. It's
like me being my authentic self is why. And that's
why I think that in the Emmy speech at residents
to people like it's the things that make you different,
those are your super Yeah. So I think we've been
taught as societies the things that make us different, because

(34:31):
sometimes when you're oppressed, oppression becomes a part of your
identity and so and that's how people want it. Because
as long as I'm like, well, no, I'm black, I'm gay,
I'm a woman, things are going to be bad. It's
gonna be rough. It's like, I'm not, you know, an idiot.
I know where I live and I know the country
I'm in, but yeah, I also know that it is
these things about me that make me unlike anyone else,

(34:55):
and it gives me a different perspective.

Speaker 1 (34:57):
I think it's amazing when you choose to carry your
magic as magic instead of as something that might need protecting.
Like you're you're you're talking about the energy of your identity,
and like I think it's it's all over not only
your career, but you as a person. Like there's a

(35:18):
reason when we all walk in a room people are like, hey,
I love watching people see you. I'm just like, yeah,
she's so fucking cool, and like I love it. I
love it because you're right. People will tell us all
the things we're not supposed to be or the ways
we're supposed to make ourselves smaller, and it's like.

Speaker 2 (35:39):
No, no, I mean well, and also that's that's uh,
that's on purpose.

Speaker 1 (35:46):
Yeah, you know, Oh you mean people might be intimidated
by your magic.

Speaker 2 (35:50):
You don't say, Well, it's like I think society tells
you to try to fit in, Yeah, all the things
that you need to feel better about yourself. Yeah, Because
you know, we also live in a capitalist society. So
if you think you need something to be happy, that
you'll constantly be on the hamster wheel. And so I think, yeah,

(36:11):
Like for me, I'm just like no, I'm really pleased
with you know, who I'm becoming and who I am.
And I see so men particularly, you know, women particularly
are told this is how you should be and this
is what is how I'm supposed to go and this
is by this age. And if you don't did that,
and so you start to believe you know what people

(36:32):
are saying. And when you really kind of step back
and go like, well, says who? If you say says
a few times a day, you'll start to kind of realize, like,
we know, if I need to do what society tells
me I'm supposed to do, because oftentimes those that make
the most change and live the most bountiful lives are
those that kind of go against what society told them
they are supposed to.

Speaker 1 (36:53):
Do I like that? Says Who. It's a nice little mantra.

Speaker 2 (36:58):
Two works, says Who.

Speaker 1 (37:00):
Was it like stepping in the Master of None? I mean,
obviously you won an Emmy, like it was the whole
thing was so incredible to watch.

Speaker 2 (37:10):
Were you.

Speaker 1 (37:12):
Did you feel like I'm just going to take this
leap as an actor and see what happens. Were you
going to folks like were you sitting there being like
everybody tell me, like what do I need to know?
Or did you feel ready from all the writing?

Speaker 2 (37:27):
I honestly didn't know what I was jumping into. I mean,
as these didn't even have a name for the thing,
Like it was like, oh wow, the first season, like
we will sit at that. And I would always tell
him like just call these he's a sorry show, and
he was just like no, because that's not really it.
And I'm actually really you know, I think he was
smart to not do that. I think actually was right.

(37:51):
But but I just had always been a fan of
his his stand up. I love Parks and Rec still
to this day obsess. I was always more of a
girl me too. Yeah, it's weird. It's like there are
two people. It's like either you like Parks to say, like,
if you're a Parks AREC person, there's so much about

(38:11):
your personality. It's like it means you're an eternal optimist
and you're probably a little off the beaten path.

Speaker 1 (38:16):
You're a little nuts in a good way.

Speaker 2 (38:18):
Yeah. Yeah, I think if you like office, your cynical
but yet kind, you know. And I think if you're
a Parks on a Rec person, like you're just you
marched a video on drum Man and and I love
that show, and I loved, you know, what Amy did
for you know, disease with that, you know, and like
putting him in that space and having him be what

(38:40):
he needed to be on that show. And then you know,
it's like, you know, the kids grow up and you
kind of go, all right, I'm gonna do my own thing.
And I see him and Alan Yang, who was writing
on Parks of Wrec obviously at the time, and obviously
Michael Shore. So I just love that you have people
from Parks and Wreck that that trifecta and Okay, we're
gonna do this, so we're gonna see what this feels like.
And so for me, I was just excited that they

(39:00):
were like kind of it was almost like they were
making their own band, like they were a part of
the popular band that people knew and recognized the music,
and they were like all right, we're gonna go over here,
and people are like, all right, what's this about to be?
And it's like they made three amazing albums, which I
can considered the three seasons. The first season, which was
just like what is this? The second season, obviously I
was really grateful I got to have my own sort

(39:21):
of you know, my own platform really, and then season three,
which a Z's and I just kind of really went
balls to the wall, like he just started to he
directed everything you see, and I was like number one
in the call sheet, which was a lesson that I
was like, Okay, I don't know if I necessarily won't
do this, Yes it's a lesson, yeah, me and men.
But it was just it was it's such a it

(39:43):
was like Camelot, you know, it was a learning space.
It was a free space and for us to win.
And I was standing writing in the comedy series two
years in a row, you know. I think that's why
the time the third season came around, posted Siga us
like they were like, okay, we get but they people
come up to me all the time and talk to
me about that third season and say, like I was

(40:04):
changed by it or it was it meant so much
to me in terms of what you guys were dealing with.
So I'm really And also it's this thing that kind
of just exists, like we could always come back, you know,
ten years from now because these feels like it and
if we have something to say. But we really grew
up doing that show a lot, you know, behind the
scenes and in front of the you know, on camera

(40:25):
as well. But it's just a special show that just
exists and lives in this moment in time. And I'm
really honored that I got to be not just a
part of it, but to really help build it, to
help this show, to shape it so much. Yeah to people,
because it definitely means a lot to me. And the
fact that people go back and revisit it, it's like
that's God's own gifts.

Speaker 1 (40:46):
Yeah, That's that's That's the kind of thing that I
hope to be lucky enough to make in this sort
of like phase two of career. Like I'm so grateful
for the I've gotten to do, don't get me wrong, Like,
you know, working in this industry as a dream, but
like there is a little bit of a different thing

(41:07):
when you do a long running thing on a network
and watching y'all do that was was really special. It's
it's it's always cool to me as an artist when
I get to watch something that reminds me of why
I love my job.

Speaker 2 (41:22):
Oh yeah, me too. Yeah, I mean I think Baby
Reindeer was that for a lot of people too. Kind
of saw that and thought, oh wow, TV can be
this again. Yes, it's still in there, still there, We're
still here.

Speaker 1 (41:36):
And now a word from our wonderful sponsors. When you
talk about being you know, you're coming into season seven
on the Shy, Like, what is it like now to
be that long into a project that you've created, Because

(42:00):
it is, as you say, it's gift and it's a
big world to have to run. So how do you
like On the one hand, you want to keep these
you know, storylines engaging for your viewers, and there's pressure
to always maintain, you know, a level of excellence on
your projects. And on the other hand, it's like seven

(42:23):
years in, it's a it's a big I don't want
to say a weight that makes it sound negative, but
like it's big. It's just a big thing, you know,
to have in the bag, Like, how how do you
keep it feeling fresh for yourself as a creative so
that you can continue to bring that that kind of
new magic seven years in. No.

Speaker 2 (42:45):
I think it's a really good question. And I think
what I recently started to think about it in this
way is that every season is like an album m
and so when you think about some of your favorite artists,
you know, every album is different. It speaks to where
they are in their lives and what they're thinking about,
what they're listening to, and and so that's what That's

(43:08):
the way it remains exciting for me is that when
we go into the writer's room, it's like going into
the studio and go, okay, we got a fresh pad
the kay before? What now? What? What where are we at? Now?
What do we want to talk about? Now? You know?
What are some characters? We get to play musical chairs
a little bit with the with the characters and kind
of figure out all, right, who do we want what

(43:30):
do we want to get into? And that to me
is the most exciting is the beginning of every you know,
writers room season, because it's sort of like all right,
it's a new beginning, and then it's about you know,
finding these new moments. And I also think of every
episode as a track of an album. So it's like
every track isn't necessarily supposed to be a Billboard one hundred.

(43:52):
You know, some episodes are supposed to be sleepers. B sides. Uh,
you know one of those songs you can't get out
of your head. And that's really how I try to
approach it. It is like music. And the thing about
it is what I think has kept people coming back
with the shot is that no season is like the
one before it. Yeah, because we aren't the same and

(44:13):
the actors are in a different space, and you know,
we want to come back and be fresh, and that
is that's the thing is, it's challenging yourself to not
be the same. Here's like you got to be new,
and that means we as people have to evolve, We
have to grow, and our lives do evolve. In me,
we had two women in our writers room be pregnant

(44:33):
last season. They were both pregnant and so now they
don't have babies now, and so it's like we go
to the new season, it's just sort of like, oh,
their lives are evolving and changing, and they're bringing that
into the writer's room. So anyone that kind of wants like,
can you make it like the first two seasons? Or
I really like that season four, I realized season five
it's like that is gone about where we are now.

(44:55):
And also it speaks to society because you do have
friends in your life who are always evolving, always always
trying to find themselves. And then there's some friends that
are like, I'm good, this is me, this is who
I am. I'm not changing. You can take it or
leave it, and both ways of walking through the world
are valid. But it's just a matter of who would

(45:17):
you rather go on the journey of life with someone
who is constantly searching for truth, but someone that thinks
they've already found it.

Speaker 1 (45:28):
Yeah, I'm in a group a yeah, same.

Speaker 2 (45:32):
I'm always searching. Yeah, and some people aren't. And that's okay, yeah,
you know, but I think I can't be making a
TV show and not be always self interrogating, because if
I start to think I got it, I know what's up,
I figured it out, the work will start to reflect
that and not do well.

Speaker 1 (45:50):
And by the way, if you think you've already figured
it out. Then you're doing your series finale and the
show's over, Like, what more do you have to explore
if you're not.

Speaker 2 (46:00):
Exploring, always exploring, always finding new things, trying to like,
you know, just keep digging.

Speaker 1 (46:06):
Okay, So is this what led us to the podcast?

Speaker 2 (46:09):
No, the podcast really came about because I was like,
we need another podcast in this world, like we need
so I said, what is my version of that? And
but Justin Riley, who's been a friend of mine forever,
who actually had a podcast way way back in the
day before they were popular. He he was telling me,
he was like, Lena, you are such a good conversationalist,

(46:30):
like you should like get into this game and you
should talk to people. But I was like, but who
am I talking to and why and what's going on?
And then that's where legacy Talk was sort of born,
where it was more about than I talked to black
women in particular whose legacies have impacted mine. And that's
what we can list where it is Gina Prince, Bythewood,
Charlie Ralph mar Rockakeeel, Jada Pinkett, Jennifer Lewis, And that's

(46:57):
what not least it's gonna be Debbie Allen and so
I had these just phenomenal conversations and it's an rip
and Nicki Giovanni, may she rest in peace. But there's
this beautiful conversation. If you haven't seen it, I implore
you to see it, especially now, a conversation between Nikki
Giovanni and James Baldwin that was filed in London. I think,

(47:19):
oh man, like in the seventies, because like Nikki Jima
really young, just like just like a young poet artist
at the time. And then Baldwin is Baldwin, but he
at this point she's written enough things where he knows
who she is and respects her. And yeah, and it's
just a stunning conversation. And I stumbled upon it when

(47:40):
I was wrapping up, you know, production on Queen and
Slim and just it just blown away by these two
people talking about everything about about life, about you know,
the church and being black and men and women, and
it is a conversation you can watch again and again
and again, and it is. It was a conversation also

(48:01):
that was orchestrated by a phenomenal queer black man named
Ellis Haslip. And you haven't seen this documentary it's on HBO.
Max called Soul Explanation Point, which was a series that
he did in the seventies that was on public television
and it was just a beautiful show that that highlighted

(48:21):
black artists at the time and revolutionary conversations. And so
he was friends with Nikki Giovanni and he asked her,
who do you want to speak to? And she's like,
I want to talk to j Baldwin. And he's like, oh,
I can make that happen. He's living in London right now.

Speaker 1 (48:34):
Don't worry, just me taking notes, please do.

Speaker 2 (48:38):
And so he put this, so this, this amazing queer
black man put this, this, this conversation together that would
be filmed and recorded that I would later find, you know.
I was like sitting in the hotel room in New
Orleans and watched it and just was just really blessed
by it. And anyone that watched this conversation will be

(49:00):
blessed by it because of such mutual respect, so much nuanced,
so much understanding their light bulb moments on both sides
that are happening. They're truly listening to each other and
respecting each other. And so I always love that dialogue
and I wanted to have dialogue like that with people
who were elders of mine. You know, I think I

(49:21):
definitely relate to Nicky's body in that conversation. Yeah, talking
to an elder, talking to somebody's respects, and she, you know,
wouldn't be where she is in that moment without the
work that he'd already done. And so and that's really
what kind of spoke to me about it. I said,
how can we record and document these conversations for people
to have, for people to reference, for people to be

(49:43):
blessed by. And so that's when we really to talk
with Leena ways was sort of born.

Speaker 1 (49:47):
I love that. I love that and I didn't know that.
I don't know if I've ever told you the whole Aha.
The light bulb moment for me to do this show
was sitting in a gathering of all the incredible women
we know. I was in Glorious Dyinem's living room talking

(50:08):
about how these intergenerational, diverse, brilliant groups of women we're
going to continue to push for progress.

Speaker 2 (50:16):
And I was like.

Speaker 1 (50:18):
The privilege of my life to be in this room,
Like if I could have told, you know, little twenty
year old me in Christopher Smith's class at the Annenberg
School of Journalism that I would be texting with Glorious
Dynams sitting in her.

Speaker 2 (50:35):
Living room, like what yet, I'm a leader too, She's.

Speaker 1 (50:40):
It's like that thing of what we get to do
as people with a platform that you can give these
conversations away. It's like one of the only still free
spaces of media for folks. Like I think it's so
beautiful and it kind of like weirdly makes me want
to cry that you were like, oh, these are the
conversations I want to record so other people can access them,

(51:02):
because not everybody's going to get to sit with Debbie
Allen or Shirley Ralph, but they can listen to you
do it.

Speaker 2 (51:08):
And that.

Speaker 1 (51:10):
Like the legacy of that, the gift of that to
the world. I don't I don't take lightly. I think
it's beautiful.

Speaker 2 (51:17):
I don't take it lightly that I appreciate that and
the fact that it's accessible, fact put it up on YouTube,
watch or listen. That's what I take it very seriously,
you know, I think I don't want to just and
even I think it's our conversations. We we we'll sit
out for a couple hours and we'll kind of cut
them down to about forty you know, minutes to get
rid of all the space and and things that you

(51:38):
kind of don't need. And I think there's people are
so used to those three hour you know type of way,
which is like look to teach his own But I'm
just to me, I want to get to the meet
and I want to be specific and I want to
I want to really get some some clarity on things
and ask very specific questions. So I know, folks, the
only asked, which is a beautiful gift. Can they be longer?

(52:00):
Can they be longer? And I'm just like no, like,
we are going to give you a finite amount of
information and we're gonna not then We're not going to
talk about every project they've ever done. We're going to
talk about projects that meant something to me that I think,
you know, we should discuss in this conversation. Are curated conversations.
They're not these long like four hours just sitting there

(52:21):
so we're talking like tell me when your mother grew up. No,
It's like with Shelley Route, we started writing at dream Girls,
and I think it kind of because she was like, oh,
you're not going to warm up to this, I'm like, no,
like the audition process for dream Girl, so like wow,
that like you know, and she's like like crazy, Like

(52:41):
I thought I was good. I was good. I was
like okay, you know, and because I want to start
really where the flagship thing is for them, you know,
and then go from there and you talk about where
what the most famous thing is that they're known for now.
I love that you had to go from dream Girls
to Avid Elementary was pretty cool.

Speaker 1 (53:00):
Hand incredible. I finally I got to meet her at
Wicked Oh, and was like, oh my god, she's unbelievable.
She gave me a box of she gave Charlie Harveston
and I and he addressed her but never met her.
They had done everything virtually, and so with the three

(53:20):
of us we were just and they were hugging and
it was so sweet. And then I don't know where
they came from, but she magically had snacks and there
were no snacks anywhere, and she gave us a box
of peanut Eminem's And if you think I did not
have that box on my kitchen counter for like three weeks,
I was like, nobody touched that. That was for miss
Cheryl for nobody touch it so fun who do you

(53:43):
who do you go to? Because you know you are
a mentor, you are a curious person, you are you
are a person who can you know, sit with your
elders to ask all these questions to who do you
go to when you need advice? Like who's the person
you call for feedback?

Speaker 2 (54:01):
Oh? Man, that's sucks pretty you know, like Debbie Allen
for sure, Jada Pinkett, h Rashida Jones about anything life career.
You can ask Ratia Jones about anything under the sun
and she'll have a really good answer. Yeah, Like those
are definitely the you know, Gina prins By. It's so

(54:24):
funny that the people I sat down across from, Man,
it's like these these amazing women who uh always have
wise things to offer. Yeah, for sure. Also last night,
just like talking to it's and that's the thing too.
I think sometimes people think about mentor it's so very
much like you know, you think it's like the big

(54:45):
chair and like sit at my feet. But it's also
good sometimes just to kind of kicky with your mentors
and laugh and and and see them as human beings
as well. I think that's so nice.

Speaker 1 (54:56):
When you get to have the that kind of like
meedness about work, but when it's not just about work,
when you get to like be with your peopil, it's
really refreshing. I did the most embarrassing thing at the
last Grays table read, because, like I mean, Debbie Allen
is like, she's Debbie Alan, she is an icon. I

(55:17):
met her like once at an award show I don't know,
five years before the pandemic. So I walked up to
her and I was like, I am just so thrilled
to be here. I said, Debbie, it's so nice to
meet you. I'm Sophia Bush. And she looked at me
like my grandmother used to and goes, no, she like
it was so sweet. She just she looked at me
like I was nuts. And I was like, I was like,

(55:38):
but but you're Debbie Allen. So on the off chant
there's eighty six people here, I'm going to introduce myself
to you because you are Debbie Allan.

Speaker 2 (55:53):
She kid get out of here, an icon. That's what
gets me every time, because I'm obviously upset. Yes doesn't
do it, she just doesn't. Yeah it does, she doesn't. Bothered.

Speaker 1 (56:07):
No, no, unbelievable. You wanted to talk about the book, Oh.

Speaker 2 (56:14):
Ray Hansburbury, what I must tell the world How Loraene
Hansbury found her voice? Words by j Leslie Pictures about
love is wise, very very grateful, Uh that we have
this book coming out for kids of all ages. We're
going to be talking about this book a lot more
and pulling up to New York this month's and talk

(56:36):
to Sherry Shepherd about it. Yeah. It's a cool, cool,
cool Christmas gift put under the tree kids alike, rain Hands.
Very amazing woman out of South side of Chicago.

Speaker 1 (56:47):
Yeah, what inspired you to get involved in the children's book.

Speaker 2 (56:50):
Well, we were doing some work with Zando. We have
home and Grab books and we actually didn't think we're
gonna do the children's book. We like that wasn't on
the Bingo card, but it just sort of came about
and we and obviously I'm a big note Loraine Hansbury,
just you know, obsessed, always being from Chicago, hearing about her.
Obviously Raising the Sun was her similar work. Died at

(57:14):
thirty four, and she just changed the world through her voice,
through words on the page. And she was the youngest
black play right not even black, the youngest play right
ever to have a show on Broadway, to have a
play on Broadway, and the first black person to have
a play on Broadway. And then Jordian Cooper became the
youngest play rights ever have a show on Broadway with

(57:36):
eight No More. He vested her about a few years.
But I also think it's very beautiful in that, even
him being a queer black play right as well. It's
just it's it's a beautiful thing. It's a beautiful history.
I wanted to play a small part in over a
No Mo but Verin Hansbury is someone who was just
a seed that became a tree, so many branches that

(57:59):
the fruit that come off that tree. I think I
get to be one of those pieces of fruit. That's
how powerful her legacy is and will continue to be.
And so it's important for me that people know who
she was and who she still is. You know, even
though someone is on earth'side anymore, it doesn't mean their
presence is no longer felt. So I hope you could

(58:19):
to get this book and read about her and learn
about her and continue to tell the world about who
she was and how she changed it.

Speaker 1 (58:26):
Yes, well, it's interesting, right, She's not Earth's side. You
can't sit down with her on legacy talks. But in
a way, her legacy is still fucking still still going
to teach the babies.

Speaker 2 (58:38):
Still teaching. Yes, So that's that's part of my legacy
is to carry hers forward. Truth.

Speaker 1 (58:45):
I love it. I mean I could sit in Kiki
with you for the next three hours.

Speaker 2 (58:49):
But like you have things now, we could have one
of those those pockets, just like three and a half.

Speaker 1 (58:53):
We should, but not on the record. Maybe we just
have it in like life. But this is my favorite
question to ask everybody who comes on the show. But
the New year energy makes it maybe feel more sparkly
as you look out at what's to come for you
this year, whether it's something you know, professional or personal,

(59:14):
or maybe it's a hybrid of both. What feels like
your work in progress.

Speaker 2 (59:22):
Myself, you know, as a human, and me stepping into
the theater space in this way. I've obviously I produced
a play Ain't No More written by Jordan Cooper, but
this I've you know, trying my hand at writing my
first play. I want to be in it and it

(59:46):
is it's just it's so nerve wrecking, exciting, and fear
inducing in the best way, and and it's also just humbling.
Yeah you And so that's just that's the that's that's
the that's the energy I want to be in. I
think all twenty twenty five, you know, especially as we

(01:00:07):
enter into this new this new era, you know, this
new presidency, it's really about what are you? What do
you have control over? And what do you accept? Mm hmm.
You know, let's practice radical acceptance and also be radical

(01:00:28):
in the art that we're doing.

Speaker 1 (01:00:30):
Yeah. Well, the storytelling is going to it's going to
matter more than ever again mm hmmm. Yeah, hm, absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:00:40):
I always love somebody as James Baldwin. Are you a
revolutionary writer? He said, I'm a writer in revolutionary times.
M hm exactly. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:00:54):
I mean the artist's job is to be in the
world and tell the truth about it, right.

Speaker 2 (01:01:00):
Yeah, reflect the time, and also tell their truth. Everybody
has their own version of the truth. M I always
sa everybody thinks they're right.

Speaker 1 (01:01:08):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:01:10):
I really like a.

Speaker 1 (01:01:13):
Sort of descriptor that my therapist gave me. He was like,
there's going to be your truth and this person's truth,
and then there's going to be the truth somewhere in
between the two, and sometimes it'll be closer to the
your edge of the ruler, and sometimes it'll be closer
to the other persons. And I think that's an important
thing to remember. And when you talk about how we

(01:01:33):
do what we do and and the requirement to be
humbled over and over again by it, like you got
to make space for a sliding scale of of reality
and then go and tell yours. I think that's really
it's powerful.

Speaker 2 (01:01:51):
Absolutely, it's just it's it's a you know, it's a responsibility.
And I think that's why we can't be lazy in
the work and we can't do it glory.

Speaker 1 (01:01:59):
Yeah, mmm, I love it. I just adore you. Thank
you for coming on the show. I love you know
the laundry list of all you do and all the
goodness you put in the world. You are just a gem.

Speaker 2 (01:02:15):
Thank you. Thank you for being so amazing and just
being a true ally and a beacon of hope. You
know it means a lot.

Speaker 1 (01:02:23):
Thank you. I will receive that kindness. Thank you so
much for sure.