October 24, 2022 • 52 mins
On August 20, 1991, 24-year-old Tae Jung Ho was robbed and shot to death while walking with a friend in Philadelphia, PA. A coincidence involving a rental car and license plate number led to Chester Hollman III being stopped by police and arrested. Chester was convicted of second-degree murder and robbery and sentenced to life without parole.
In 1991, Jimmy was only 21 years old when he was wrongfully convicted of a gruesome murder committed in broad daylight in North Philadelphia, PA. Jimmy was sent to death row. With no physical evidence, DNA, or a weapon, the musician spent 25 years in prison and was finally exonerated in 2017.
Despite overlaps in their cases, Jimmy and Chester met after they were exonerated. Jimmy set up a conference to campaign for DA Larry Krasner, and he invited all Philadelphia exonerees. There, he met Chester, who immediately told Jimmy he knew him and listened to all of his music. Chester and Jimmy became friends, and bonded over the fact that the same prosecutor, Roger King, was central in sending them both to prison for crimes they did not commit.
To learn more and get involved, visit:
https://krasnerforda.com
https://painnocence.org
Innocence Files Episode: https://www.netflix.com/watch/80214635
This episode is part of a special series in our Wrongful Conviction podcast feed of 15 episodes focused on individual cases of wrongful incarceration, guest hosted by formerly incarcerated returning citizens and leading criminal justice advocates, award-winning journalists and progressive influencers.
Wrongful Conviction is a production of Lava for Good™ Podcasts in association with Signal Co. No1.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm Jason Flom, host of Wrongful Conviction. Over the years,
hundreds of exonreies have told me their stories, and sadly,
with the state of our criminal legal system, we're left
with far more cases than I can possibly handle alone.
So I've asked some axonrerees to handle some of these cases,
bringing the kind of perspective to the interviews that could
only come from living through their own wrongful convictions. This
(00:23):
is one of those interviews. On a hot August night
in one University of Pennsylvania grad students, A Jung Hope
was walking with his friend near Rittenhouse Square in Philadelphia.
A white Chevy blazer with four people inside pulled up
beside them. Two of them got out of the car,
(00:46):
robbed a jung Hoe and shot him. He died of
his injuries. A few hours later. A cab driver witnessed
the shooting. He told police what he saw and what
he remembered of the license place the first three letters
Y C A, just say. A few minutes later, the
(01:06):
police pulled over a white Chevy Blazer with Y C
A on the plate. They thought they caught the criminal.
He was a twenty one year old Chester home in
the third, he didn't match the description of the shooter,
and there were only two people in his car, not four.
(01:26):
Chester didn't have a weapon nor anything from the robbery. Nevertheless,
he was arrested and taken to the station. In May,
he was senting to life in prison without the possibility
of parole. This is wrongful conviction. My name is Jimmy A. Dennis.
(01:58):
I spent years on death road for a crime I
didn't commit. I was a guest on role for conviction
and talked to Jason about my own experience in the
criminal justice system years ago. But today I'll be your
guest host. I'm here with Chester home in the third.
Here and I know each other well. Our stories overlap
and highlight the patterns of misconduct in the Philadelphia criminal
(02:21):
justice system. Chester. As Jason always says, I'm happy you're here,
but I'm not happy that you're here. Could you introduce yourself,
Um Chester Holman Uh, I've served twenty eight years on
the wrong for conviction. I have now I've been home
since two thousand of nineteen, and today we're also joined
(02:41):
by your attorney, Alan Tarboro. Thank you for joining us today. Alan.
Could you introduce yourself as well? HELLI, Jimmy. My name
is Alan Tarboro. I'm an attorney. I've been practicing law
since n most of which has been criminal defense and
civil rights. And I met Chester and two thousand four,
two thousand five. I had the distinction and honor of
(03:05):
representative for fifteen years before we actually want his exoneration.
Every time I see him and talk to him, uh
outside of the prisiondents just brightens my heart. Remarkable, Chester,
I want to ask you, my friend, what was your
life like prior to being stolen away for a crime
(03:26):
you didn't commit. I was born in Chester, Pennsylvania. Um,
that's where I grew up. And then we uh, at
some point we moved to Delaware, Womanton, Delaware. You know
it was Um, I said it was. It was a
regular life, you know with my father worked very hard.
You know, my mother was on dialysis. Uh. You know,
me and my sister, you know, we were involved and
(03:47):
you know from the time I remember with sports and
some type of activity. You know, I went to community
college and I started off at a Womanton community college
and I moved to Field Up Community College and I
was studying actual criminal justice. I didn't know which field
I wanted to go into I know it was law
enforcement or you know, some type of legal field, but
that's what I was doing. And then I got a
job at as an armored car guard. I was driving
(04:09):
for Brooks Armor Car. I went moved to Philadelphia down
North Philly Broad and Gerard, and uh I was there
and uh, you know, just living my life. I thought
the world was my oyster. And I think I had
all these plans of of how things were going to
eventually end up being and uh, just one that one
tragic night, it just all came to a crashing end.
(04:30):
And uh it's for the next twenty years trying to
get back. When you practice criminal defense, one of the
old adages is one of these you hear is like,
there's no such thing as coincidences, right, But the other
rule is there's always an exception of that case, and
and Chester Holman's case is the exception. Chester was the
victim of, you know, many things, but most substantially he
(04:53):
was the victim of a very very remarkable and crazy coincidence.
And that is in this case, which was a terrible
case of a terrible, brutal killing of a student, the
perpetrators drove up to this young man at one am
(05:14):
in Center City was walking home from a I was
walking home from the University of Pennsylvania campus and Um,
there were four people in a white Chevy Blazer. Two
of them two men get out, two women remained in
the car as sort of the getaway driver. The two
men run up to the victim, pushed him to the ground, Um,
shoot him and and rob him of his wallet. He
(05:36):
there was a woman with him. His friend standing directly
next to him witnessed the entire thing from three ft
to three ft away. They get into a white Chevy
Blazer and drive away. It's one am, it's hot August night.
Actually a lot of people out in Center City, and
the vehicle is trailed is followed by a cab driver
who witnesses this, and the cab driver gets half of
(05:58):
the vehicle's tag, follows him through traffic for a few
blocks and disappears. Y z A right, that was the
letters doesn't get the numbers as the vehicle turns out
to have been rented by I think it was Enterprise. Um,
they had three Idea, three identical vehicles on rental in
Philadelphia that same day, and the vehicle what what What
(06:22):
made this even more astonishing is they bought and put
into service these three vehicles at the same day. So
when they registered them, they got tags y Z A
zero zero one, Why Z A zero zero two? Why
is these zers are three? And the cab driver only
got the letters that repeated, not the numbers. As it happens,
(06:43):
Chester's driving one of those other vehicles that had been
rented by his roommate and had been loaned given to
him to use that weekend. He's driving towards the crime scene.
He's stopped five minutes, not five minutes after the murder,
driving towards the crime scene, in the identical vehicle with
the same tag, and he meets the general description of
(07:05):
what one of the perpetrators of like the young woman
in the car with him DJ Jones meet met the
general description of what of one of the women in
the car, and they and they stopped him. And I
mean I could imagine you're a young police officer and
that's who stopped him. You're thinking, man, I I just
solve this crime. I got h you know, you know
you got a car with the tag. You're thinking you
(07:26):
solve the crime. Well, at all the people involved in
this case, were then convinced they solve the crime. Never
Mind that Chester was not wearing his clothing didn't match
any of the description the witnesses gave. Never Mind that
there were only two people, not four people in the car.
Never Mind there's no no proceeds of the robbery, no weapon,
and he's driving back to towards the scene. Never Mind
(07:47):
all that. Never Mind the fact that the young woman
who was with the person who was killed can't identify Chester.
Other than the vehicle. Nothing else lined up. Chester, Tell
me about your that night and you were out and
what you were doing and where you were going and
whom you had with you. Talk about that a little
(08:08):
bit for me, all right. Just returned home from Delaware.
I went down to my parents house, and I spent
most of the day in Delaware, and I was there
to about maybe midnight. Um, I left there and I
went home to where I lived on Broaden. Gerard came
out the garage, went around front, and I passed Dedre
her sister, and uh. I spoke to him, and she
(08:29):
dedresked me where I was going and se up to
my apartment. So and then I said, what do you
want to do now? Because This was my first full
day of vacation. I had never had a vacation in
my my life on the job. So you know that
Monday I was starting vacation for a week vacation in
a paid vacation. Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. Yes,
I'm excited, you know I'm not. I ain't ready to
(08:50):
go to sleep this Saturday night. I mean, I was like,
let's let's you want to go somewhere, but we didn't
know where to go. So I was like, listen, I
had a friend who lived down on fifty second in Greenway,
so let's go down here check out him. So we
get downstairs and I had a black Toyota sell like
a g T at the time. And then we also
had the Blazer, so I asked her which, of course
(09:10):
she wanted to take. So we just let's take the
Blazer and put the miles on that car rather than
my car. So so we get out, we pull out,
and we circle around and we go straight down the
broad Street. As soon as we turned onto Lombard, there
was I mean, there wasn't a car or person in sight. Man,
I've never seen Philly like this. I mean, it was
like like a dead zone. So I knew something wasn't right,
(09:33):
but I kept going and uh, I turned the music
down and we approached the first light on Lombard and uh,
I stopped at that light and I saw a police
car going north. So when the light turned green, I
proceeded forward, and you know, I'm looking in the river
view mirrors next to you know, the lights pop on.
(09:55):
Sounds like damn, what do I do? So I pull
over and like a half a block down, I pull
over and next thing you know, they jumped out with
guns drawn. I know that was very uncomfortable. Yeah, so
I asked, you, said, what we did? What we do?
She said, I don't know, I don't know. Next thing
you know, they're in front of the car with the
guns pointed at us. You know, we got our hands
(10:16):
up and it took us out of the car and
UH put the handcuffs on us, and uh, this is
your nightmare began. Yes, tell me how you felt being
arrested and then subsequently um being taken to the police
station and what happened in that interrogation room with those
(10:38):
police detectives. Well, that that night, after we were put
out the car, I was placed in the back of
a police car, and Uh, I saw d being placed
in another car and I didn't I didn't know where
we were going, but later found out we were being
taken to the scene of the crime. So when we
got there, Uh, there was like maybe four or five
people underneath the street. Like I saw a police officers
(11:01):
take these four or five people, whoever whatever it was,
go to Deeeder's where she was, and they opened the
back door and I saw him looking and then they
came back and UH did the same thing to me,
and I made sure I stepped my head out so
they could see me. And you know, everybody was like
I heard everybody said, that's not him, that's not him.
And then Uh, I heard over the police radio saying
the guy had died. Take him to take the suspect
(11:24):
to homicide. So I said what So when I heard that,
I said, I said, you know, my first thought is
this is a murder. So you know, I was like, what,
So I'm telling I said, officer, I said, you got
the wrong guy. I'm talking, you got the wrong guy.
And when I get in the car, when the officers
said that you're done now, he said, you're never gonna
see the light of day and I was like, you know,
(11:45):
I'm just sitting in his back seat like kind the
world has happened. So we get to apan race and
they take me upstairs and put me in this room
that's freezing, and I see this green chair. This bolted
to the floor. So they put me in his chair.
They handcuffed me to this chair, and I'm just sitting
there like freezing, like this cannot be happened. So my
(12:09):
first interaction with the officer was Detective Jeff Pyry. He
came in and I'm I'm a little excited, like to
tell my story and try to get this all worked out.
So I'm thinking it's gonna work out. And he comes
in and punches me right in the mouth. He said,
you're like killing people in my city, right, you know.
I mean. So I was just like looking at him.
I don't know what to say or do. So I'm
(12:29):
just sitting there and uh, he walks out. I'm sitting
there just like stunned, like this is it's just bad.
I'm just saying this is bad. I told him, I said,
I worked for Brooks Army Car you know, I mean,
I said, I don't know what happened. I said, but
I drive around millions of dollars. I'm in and out
of the banks Garden State Park. Wait, were there picking
up money? I mean, I'm I got three million dollars
(12:50):
on the average in the back of my truck every day. Right,
you are an honorable citizen. You are a good citizen
of Philadelphia. Care. Yeah, So I said, if I wanted
to rob somebody, I'm not gonna commerce on the street.
I'm a pull this truck and just keep going. Looking back.
Where I feel like I really messed up was first
of all, speaking to him in the first place. But
I just figured that, you know, since I had nothing
(13:11):
to hide, it was okay to talk. And then by
me working for Brooks, you know, I thought that would
just like bolster my my innocence and showed him I
had no reason to rob anybody. But it didn't happen.
So I told him that I had a gun back
in my apartment, my work gun, and uh, I told
him where it was in my apartment. So I got
my badge, my bulletproof rounds of AMMO was in my
(13:32):
bottom drawer inside my bedroom. And uh, you know, later
on down the road, come to find out that was
all used against me. You did not mess up. We
are taught in this country that the police are our
friends from the time we are babies, and that we
are supposed to go down to the police station, cooperate
(13:52):
and do us right. And that's all you did. You
did with any actual citizen would do. Now we know
that you can't even and talk to them at all
because they are not trustworthy. That is exactly what Chester's
mindset was. Because we've talked about this, you were like,
you thought they would figure it out, they would work
This is gonna get worked out, They're going to get
(14:13):
to the bottom. And this is a mistake. At some point,
the police stopped becoming detectives, they stopped trying to discern
the truth, and they start becoming advocates and they start
to do. Everything they do is to build the case
to make it stronger against who they've in their judgment
where they've decided is guilty, as opposed to continuing to
(14:34):
investigate and try to get to the actual truth. Tunnel vision. Yeah,
and that's that is one of the things I've learned
in the system is that police the culture or the
science of policing more the culture policing is we are
trying to get to the truth to a point. But
once we've decide, or we discern in our judgment who
(14:57):
it is, everything at that point beca is how to
build a case against that person. And they will ignore
other evidence, they will suppress other evidence, they will hiw that,
they will destroy it correct, and that's a problem. This
(15:22):
episode is underwritten by global law firm Greenberg triaric through
its pro bono program, Greenberg Triary leverages it's more than
lawyers across forty two offices to serve the greater good
of our communities and provide equal access to justice for all.
In the field of criminal justice, Greenberg Triary attorneys have
exonerated and Freedom and in Philadelphia represent numerous individuals previously
(15:44):
sentenced to life for crimes committed as juveniles and resentencing hearings,
and received the American part Association Exceptional Service Award for
Death Penalty Representation for their work on five death penalty cases.
GT is reimagining what big law can be you as
a more just world only happens by design. So, while
(16:10):
let's talk about some of the players in the case,
can you tell me about the police investigating the crime.
Let's start with David Baker, who was the detective who
who took the key statement in this case, which was
dear Ja Jones statement, Chester's friend who was in the car.
So she signs a seven eight page single space statement
extraordinarily detailed about the events of the night. I mean
(16:35):
with detail that you would not be able to provide
unless you were there minute to minute. So how does
that happen? How does David Baker get the statement? So
over the course of the night, the police are interviewing
numerous witnesses there there probably were eight, ten, twelve people
(16:55):
who were interviewed who were witnesses, including Chester. So they
are gathering lots and lots of details and lots and
lots of information, and and throughout the night they're going
in to see dear just saying you know, you're gonna
tell us what happened. She's like, you know, she sticks
to it. I'm not involved. I don't know what happened.
I couldn't tell you. And eventually, um, they they get
(17:17):
her to relent um. They threatened to take her children away,
they threatened to charge her with as a conspirator, that
she's going to go to jail for life. The straw.
That breaks I think that breaks the camel's back for her.
She she's not getting a lawyer, is They walk in
with Chester statement, which of course is completely exculpatory, and
they say, oh, your boyfriend has confessed. He's testified. I mean,
(17:39):
he's going to jail. You're not gonna help us, We'll
just charge you. He's already admitted it, which of course
he didn't. So she signs the statement and that's how
this David Baker gets a statement. So so he David
Baker was instrumental in in another exoneration that happened roughly
around the same time the case was a little was
(18:01):
was was a little later Aunt Anthony Raight. Obviously, Jimmy,
you know Anthony Ray. Anthony Ray was exonerated about a
year before Chester, same detective, same emo um, virtually very
very similar situation. But but Jimmy, it's important to note that,
I mean, this is not exclusive to David Baker. I
(18:21):
think what you see in the exonerations that have occurred
over the past five years and even before is a
pattern of this sort of these sort of tactics that
existed across the homicide unit. David Baker was by no
means the worst of the detectives I think. I think
David Baker was was more of a sort of ordinary
(18:43):
regular detective who just followed the path that was before him.
That's a really good point, Alan, because it's not just
one bad officer. We always talk about these bad apples,
but what happens to Apple Core When you have one
bad apple, it ruins the whole bunch. And what we're
talking about, it's a culture that encourages this behavior and
(19:06):
ultimately leads to innocent people like myself and Chester home
and having decades of their life destroyed behind bars for
something that we didn't do. And so now, Alan, I
want to talk about some of the witnesses. Tell me
about how the police built this case against Chester. But
first let's talk about Andre Dawkins. He ends up being
(19:29):
a pretty important to the state's case. Talk about that.
Andre Dawkins was a I believe at the time he
may have been homeless, he was inn He was sweeping
up a parking lot at a gas station down the
block from where the murder happened. And Andre Dawkins, you know,
(19:49):
had a very tough life. He had substance abuse issues,
he had mental health issues. He had many many arrests
and condections for petty thefts and petty offenses. Um he
had open cases at the time. He had a bench
warrant at the time, and the police he threatened to
be incarcerated in twelve different ways. And basically they had
(20:10):
him to identify Chester, make an idea of Chester. But
that was Andre Dawkins, and Andre Dawkins recant his idea
years later. He was the first one to recant. You know,
we met him, I would say about eight or ten
years later, and he could not have been more remorseful
about doing what he did. It was it was astonishing
how much he remembered. The lead detective, not David Baker
(20:33):
was another detective is now deceased. Knew where Andre hung out.
He hung around in a certain part of Center City.
And Andre told me that for the entire year or
so between the arrest and the trial, this detective would
show up and give him give him money every week.
All of this history, all of his history, was unavailable
(20:55):
to Chester's lawyer at the time. The prosecutor had it,
Roger King had it was in the file and it
could have been used to impeach him and Roger King
kept that he hit it, so the jury didn't get
the benefit of knowing about Andre's background and all the
reasons why he would not have been a credible witness. So,
Alan you mentioned Roger King, I know him very well. UM,
(21:17):
So explain a little more about who Roger King was.
His reputation in Philadelphia at this time. Roger King was
a bit of a legend in Philadelphia. UM, a very
sort of charismatic African American prosecutor. He came from Alabama.
His dad was a minister. He clearly was raised with this. Uh,
(21:43):
he learned the language of of preaching, let's put it
that way. Yes, Yes, he was very theatrical, very theatrical,
and was very very effective and deployed that in in
the courts in Philadelphia. Um. And and you know, in
a very cynical way. The District Attorney's office would bring
him out and assigned these cases where race was clearly
(22:06):
you know, they would they would never they would never
say it, but obviously they would deploy him in a
in a very you know where race was a question.
I'll say exactly what it was for you, just for
the wrong of conviction. Listening to audience, Um, what Island
has been speaking to are the dirty tactics of the
(22:27):
Philadelphia Police Department Homicide Division. Threatening a witness is not uncommon.
They did it in Chester case, they did in an
Anthony Right case, they did it in Jimmy Dennis case,
my case Right. And they would threaten to witness, tell
them they put him in jail, tell me they take
away their kids, so on and so forth and then
and in terms of Roger King, he would lie, he
(22:49):
would cheat, he was still, he would pay witnesses. He
was nothing more than an evil man. He was very
He was a very a moral person at a very
immoral prosecutor. So prosecutor's duty is to do justice, and
for Roger King, doing justice was winning at all costs.
There was there was no review, There was no reconsideration,
(23:12):
There was no reflection should new evidence come up. In
Chester's case, we found a hidden evidence that he hit
that was hidden in his file, uh that he didn't
turn over. And then and then after the trial when
it was discovered, tried to say this was that he
wasn't aware of it was accidental. It was in his
file with time stamps that showed he had this before
(23:35):
trial justice, speak to me about your charges. What what
were you charged with? And then subsequently when they took
you to the county prison. Because I want people to
understand and know that is something to being prisoned, period,
but it is a different animal when you are innocent.
Speak to that if you will. I was smarless numb
(23:57):
because I couldn't believe it. This was happening. You know
what I'm saying. You watch TV all the time and
you see all these different things on TV about these
police shows, and I like, but you never see this.
And I just one of the officers. I said, look,
can I use the phone? So I haven't got on
the phone, said when I called my mom, Well, when
I called, you know, I was so relieved to hear
a VOICEMANHI up the Phone's like it was only a
half a ring. She had already put up the phone.
(24:18):
And uh, even if I could say anything, she had
already told me because it was all over the news.
I said, Mom, I we're gonna need a lawyer, and
she said, we're already working on it. And um, I said, uh,
We're gonna need the best lawyer, and uh, you know,
I'm crying back and forth. We both crying. My mom,
we're crying. But at the same time I realized and
I can't keep probably just you know, being here, I need.
I knew that much, so she said, um, we're gonna
(24:40):
get a lawyer. You know, We're gonna get you out
of there. So I'm believing that. And I didn't know
the uh, you know, with murder charges carried, I don't know.
I was looking at life. I ain't none of that.
I just knew it was it was. It was bad.
And I end up going to d C. D C
had no cells and they put me in this hallway
and we were just lyned. It was just guys lined
up in this hallway and I'm sleeping on the floor
(25:03):
and uh, you know, I'm just looking around like this
cannot be happening. I was there. I was on in
d C for I think it was two days. And uh,
they told me, because I had a homicide and it
was a high profile homicide, that I was gonna be
moved to a Homesburg prison and that is the roughest
county prison and Philadelphi is the worst of the worst.
(25:24):
And I didn't know that at the time, and I saponed.
I walked on the block. I saw my face on
the TV and I see like the whole block just
got quiet, and everybody's looking back at me, and I'm like,
oh my god. So they take me and they put
me in the cell, all in the back, and they
give me a single cell by myself. And I was
in itself maybe ten minutes and these old, three old
(25:45):
guys came into the cell that you know, and open
the gate. You know, I'm thinking, first thing in my
mind that they about to attack me, you know, and
you know that's what I'm thinking. And uh, it was
three old Muslim guys and they came in there and
they just basically told me and we saw your situation
on TV just listening. He said, you're gonna be hard.
And they gave me to run down of the block.
They said, look, mind your business, you know what I mean,
(26:05):
Respect one another, you know, don't look at nobody's cell.
And that's and that's what I got. That that was
my my lesson. They gave you the layer of land
and you you were very fortunate to have those good
Muslim brothers. Uh. I wish you knew their names so
we could call their names out. So when you get
to trial. You know, now know that you are going
(26:27):
to trial, how does that make you feel? I was
real hopeful, you know, and I said, there's no way
that a jury can find me because the jury isn't
corrupt like the police officers and the district attorney of
these are people of my peers. So I heard a
little bit more hope. Uh So, you know, preparing for trial,
you know, watching the whole process unfold, I'm listening to
(26:49):
Roger King. I'm watching all his movements and listening to
his all his antics. You know, I said, man, this
this is gonna be a battle right here. And I
was just wondering, you know, if my attorney at that
time was just on s time was up for it.
I just didn't, you know, I know. They it came
to me with a deal, you know, offer me like
the five to ten. They were like, listen, um, just
(27:10):
take the deal, you know, and uh give up a
shooter and you know you've got three years left and
you'll be home. Let me speak to that real quick though,
because that's another tactic. Every single one of us who
had a high profile case was offered to do, and
every single one of us ex honorees in Philadelphia said no,
(27:35):
and that's what you did. Chester. Once again, this speaks
to his innocence, but it speaks strongly to his character.
So I'll just say this, the deal that was offered
was a phenomenal deal given the jeopardy that Chester faced.
Life without parole in Pennsylvania is life without parole. There's
(27:55):
no there's no loophole, there's no escape valve. I mean,
there are innocent people who would have taken the ideal,
I can assure you, given given the fear of facing
life in jail. So it's no small bit of bravery
not to take that. I'll just say that. And for me,
that's why Chester is in my phone as a champion.
(28:17):
He's a brave guy, So that's no small feat. Prodrick
King presents the state's case. And they have the victim's
friend who was standing next to him when the robbery
and murder happened. They have Andre Dawkins, whom they were
paying to lie for them, and they have your friend Dedrew,
(28:41):
who they threatened to get this statement. Alan. Let's talk
about the defense and what did Chester lawyer gerald Stein present.
So I thought, um, Jerry did a good job, very
good job with what he had. Um he crossed examined
Andre Dawkins very effectively again for what he had. He
didn't have all of his backgrounds. Chester were you when
(29:05):
you were sitting there in that courtroom and you had
all these lives being bandied about about you? How did
you feel that your attorney had done for you in
his representation of you? Looking back, I mean, you know,
and going back to that moment um, you know, it's
it's all new to me, Jimmy. You know what I'm saying,
It's it's all new. So I'm watching it as it unfolds,
(29:27):
and I'm I'm hearing it. I'm knowing these are lies. Uh,
And you know, at this point, I'm just like it
was a fifty fifty like Alan said, you know, I
think he did the best of what he could, you know,
with what he had. But the thing for me and
gerald Stein where we differ was that, Uh, I wanted
to testify, and I was very adamant on testifying, but
(29:48):
gerald Stein had told me that I wasn't going to testify,
and he told me that he was going to relinquish
himself from the case if I testified. So, uh, my
mom and my grandmother you know, they were so trusting
of you know, the attorney who we don't know. But
I said, okay, I said, you know, I said, I'm
gonna trust this, okay, And I didn't end up testifying.
(30:10):
You would literally put in a no win situation because
here it is, the decision was yours because it's your life,
your life. He said that, Uh, Roger King will tell
your part. He did say that. But my whole, my
whole mindset was always from the very beginning, was I
have nothing to hide, man, I have nothing to hide,
and you just want the jury and everyone in courtroom
(30:33):
to know the truth. I did it. I I totally
get it. I was gonna say, Jimmy, I was just
gonna say, like the conventional wisdom, and this is, you know,
what you learned coming up is it's better not to testify.
Once you exercise you're right to testify, in some large way,
the case becomes a referendum on your testimony. It's generally
(30:54):
perceived to be a very risky move. One bad answer
or you get into a bad little line of questioning
and you may have a strong case, but you could
lose jurors because now they think you're not being honest
or you don't have a good answer for one thing.
There's a lot of people doing a lot of time
because they they chose to exercise their right to testify.
Like I just felt like all these negative things have
(31:16):
been said about me that you know, and I haven't
had an opportunity to say anything. This was my one opportunity,
and I was I was willing to take the chance.
I said, they gave me the def penalty of life whatever,
I didn't care. I said, you know, I want to
be at the sentiment and fight for myself. Even after
we found guilty, I didn't never got to speak to it.
After I got out of prison. This is twenty years later,
(31:38):
So twenty years of silence. We all on wrong for conviction.
Wanted to have you on here was to give you
a voice that you hadn't had for so many years.
And so we are immensely glad that you and island
that showed up today. Tell me about when you were
foundly when you would convict at trial Chester and uh
(32:03):
was your family in the courtroom, how did everybody feel,
and what happened that day when the jury came back
with their verdict man um that was Yeah, that was
that was That was I think the roughest day of
my life. Actually, uh, my fate of my my future
(32:24):
was right here in these people's hands. And uh, you know,
listening to Roger King make his his final argument and
you know, my my attorney, and I was just like,
you know, this can go either way. You know, I'm
sitting here and knowing I'm innocent, but at the same
time listening to Roger King, and I'm like, you know,
he got me questioning myself, you know, because his his
his his closing argument was just ridiculous. You know what
(32:46):
I'm saying, I'm just like, did I do it? You know,
because it was just that compelling. I very well know
that he came and pulled out all the stops and
probably even told the jury and everyone in the courtroom
that it was a society right to convict you that
if they didn't, they were basically letting a criminal back
(33:08):
on the streets, because that's what he has did. And
every single closing the argument tried to get the public
to take up arms for justice and convict an innocent person. Yeah. So,
after after the after conclusion of all that, you know, uh,
you know, I looked at East juror and uh, the
jury foreman he looked at me and he winked, you know,
(33:30):
and give me like a you know, heads like a
head nod, and I'm okay, maybe maybe they do believe,
you know, and uh they went out and uh, I
think it was maybe like a day and a half.
When they came back in, no one looked at me.
You know, it wasn't the same as when they went out.
So my my heart immediately fell, you know, into my stomach,
and I'm just like, this is not gonna be good.
(33:52):
But I still was holding on this a little bit
of hope. So the judge you know, read off his
spill and then uh, you know, he asked for a
verdict and they came back and they read the first
degree and it was it was not guilty. So I
was excited. I'm like, okay, all right, maybe this is
you know okay. I had then when they said the
second degree and uh they said so m hm no,
(34:22):
they said, um, they said guilty, and you know, I
was just like, you know how how you know how?
And then they read off the other charges murdering, you know,
I just I didn't understand, and I turned around, I
looked at my mother, and my mother's face was just
like I can still see it so clearly. I mean,
(34:43):
she was just like she was devastated. You know. My father,
he was just sitting there and you know, but my
mom's face as well. I'll never forget. So after that,
I just did. I heard nothing else. I remember my
knees buckled a little bit and I fell down a
little bit, and and they asked me if I had
anything to say, and I told you, Jesse, they got
(35:04):
it wrong. I said, you know, this is this is wrong.
I said, you know, I said, I've never lied, you
know about my innocence, you know, and I read it
all down and you know he had but he never
even didn't hear nothing. I said, that was a wrap.
(35:31):
I guarantee. I listen to audience. If you go and
look at everybody trial transcripts who's been on wrong for conviction,
you will see that when they sentenced us, that we
stood before that judge and we said, once again, you're
getting it wrong. We're innocent, we didn't do it. We
(35:52):
don't be long here, so and so forth. Talk to
me Chester about your After all the years go by,
what was your lowest point being incarcerrated upstate, and then
we'll get to what your highest point was. But I
want the audience to know what was your lowest point
in prison for something you didn't do. There were many
(36:14):
low low points. I think the entire twenty years a
low point. But I think my lowest point was I
was losing my mom. Yeah, because she had been my
strongest advocate, my my biggest supporter, um and she was
like everything everything to me. And uh, when you lose
a loved one, it's gonna be tough, really in prison
(36:34):
or not. But being in prison, you know, it's I
think it's even harder because, like I said, you know,
it's the one person I would I would did anything
for my life, you know, and did everything for me.
And to go back into that block and not be
he to cry and shed a tear and and show
this weakness, you know, it was it was, it was.
It was hard. You can't do that in prison. You
(36:56):
couldn't even grieve. My mom had always told me, you know,
I talked my mom every day. If there's a way
to a will, there was a way to go on
that phone. I got on the phone and I called
her every day, and she always told me every day
and end of the phone call, do not lose yourself.
And she told me that every single phone call, do
not lose yourself, and uh, you know, and then begin.
(37:17):
I don't know what that meant, but as time went on,
I said, Okay, should be the man and I raised
you to be. And uh, you know, that's that's all
I tried to do. Man. You know, I said, these
people have smeared my name, They've taking my freedom. I said,
you know, I'm going to show them that they're wrong.
You know. So I just tried to move by my
actions and uh, carry myself in a way that would
(37:37):
speak louder than my voice could speak. Did you take
any classes? Did you did you immerse yourself in the law?
Did you did you have any hobbies? Um to make
the time go by while you were fighting to prove
your innocence. You know, I I definitely immerged my myself
into the law. I've read a lot of books, did
(37:58):
a lot of working out, you know. Matter of fact,
I worked out more and probably than that I did eating.
I was I was actually the strongest guy in the prison.
You know. I had broken so many different records, you know,
just trying to take because I was that anger was
being directed towards these weights. So I was benching like
four fifty five and that's crazy, you know, but what
do you bet you that? What do you bet you now?
(38:21):
Maybe one thirty five? You know. Yeah, But it was
all about just trying to stay you know, stay sharp
the mind and physically. You know, I said, this is
gonna be a long fight, so I wanted to, you know,
keep my wits about me and my physical health. So
I did everything I could to keep both sharp. So
kind of summarize what happened in these twenty five years,
(38:45):
you know, because there were pills based on recantations by
Deedre Jones and Andre Dawkins, and all of those pills
were toned. So I know that it had to be
such a dehabilitating process for you and is were looking bleak,
but you were holding onto hope. Tell me about when
you knew that the ebbs of life were turning in
(39:07):
your favor. Talk to me a little bit about that,
chester about when things start to turn in your favor.
I'm saying maybe year maybe things I think things started.
You know, it was more talk and I think my
case was on the front page of the Daily News
and all the staff had it and inmates had it,
and I'm like, maybe there's you know, maybe things are
(39:29):
starting to move. And so this is right around the
time when Larry Krasner gets elected. This was a huge
day for people in Philadelphia because we had never had
a district attorney speak loudly and clearly about innocent people
being in prison and trying to right those wrongs. And
(39:52):
one of the one of the most important things he
did was he hired Patricia Cummings to have the Conviction
Integrity UNI. She becomes his number one. So, Alan, tell
me about when that process took place, in the petition
that you wrote and got in front of Patricia Cummins,
and how all that came to be. I had our
(40:15):
petition drawn up, she comes in. I think I walked
over there and handed it to her the day after
she started. So she called me about two weeks later
and said, you know, I read your letter. We're very
interested in this case. We're definitely gonna take this up,
and I've ordered the homicide file for you to review,
which that came in about a month later, and then
we found that other evidence in the homicide file. I
(40:37):
opened the file, and what was, without a question, like
the Perry Mason moment of my life. I pulled a
folder out. The first thing is pulled this folder out.
It's a memo from a police officer who man's the
tip line. The night of the crime, they received an
anonymous tip essentially identifying Denise Combs as the driver of
(40:58):
the getaway car. As I said in the beginning, there
were three rented Chevy Blazers with the same time, roughly
the same tag, but Denise and rent was the name
on the rental agreement for the one of the other vehicles.
And you know, we believed she was involved. Um, we
we spent a long time looking for her. Not that
it was not that easy to find her, believe it
(41:19):
or not. But when we did, she was very welcoming
and we spoke to her many numerous occasions. I mean,
she never admitted involvement in the case, but she said
a lot of things that were kind of astonishing. Actually,
in one of the interviews, she said that was out
of thirty eight we had to get rid of because
there was a quote unquote body on it, and of
(41:40):
course a thirty eight was used in this case. This
that was the gun used in this case, and she
says this to us, and that memo with the information
the anonymous tip identifying her gets buried in the homicide
file never turned over. So all, bring me to the
day when you know that Chester is going to be released.
(42:02):
Tell me how you felt, Tell me how his family felt,
Tell me where you're able to reach out to Chester
and let him know that she was coming. Again, we
go to this hearing. The judge ordered this hearing. We
didn't know she was going to release Chester that day.
We just thought she had some questions and she asked
us a handful of questions as well, I want to
release him today. Can you give me an order? And
(42:23):
Patricia comes to you know, the d A and I
look at each other like yeah. We sit down and
we write a hand rate in order, you know, give
it to the judge and she signs it and Facts
faxes it up to the prison. And then it was
like we all jump in our cars. I called Chester's family.
We all jump in our cars and we're like, you know,
it's like the amazing race we're trying to get who's
(42:44):
gonna get to the prison first. You know, that's an
incredible story. That's an incredible moment for you as attorney,
and I just want to say thank you for being
a vessel that helped reunite Chester with his family. What
you did was no, no short of being heroic. Um Chester,
(43:04):
how did you feel about that? When Alan is telling you,
even before you got released, how did you feel about that?
It wasn't really until I got across that bridge that
you know, my shoulders straighten up a little bit, because
you know, as you already know, Jimmy, you know what
I mean. I'm I'm, I'm I'm twenty eight years in
and you know, I hear to talk and I hear
all the rumblings, but at the same time, it's like,
(43:25):
I'm still here. You know when that that that morning
when they called me back to the block and uh,
the counselor called me upstairs. She says, um, I need
you to pack your stuff. You're gonna be going home
tomorrow morning. You know, I thought she's playing. It's like
get over there, and she says, uh, uh the judge
is called and uh, they're releasing you today. So I'm
(43:45):
just like how, you know how and she's like, I
don't know, but you're going home. You know, it's just
like you know, you don't, you don't. You know, your hope,
but you don't, you know, you don't believe. It's just
you know what I mean. So it was just everything
just so surreal, and you know, and before I can
get back to my cell, which is on the other
side of the block, the whole jail had already already
(44:06):
found out, and I had white shirts, captains, sergeants, you know,
everybody coming to myself congratulate me. And I didn't have it.
I didn't have an opportunity to really process it, you know.
So now on the Capital of Security, he's telling me
you have to get outside, you have to get out
the prison because now you're considered a civilian. I'm like, yeah,
I've just been here twenty five years. Now you tell
(44:27):
me I gotta go. He's yeah, you got twenty minutes.
So they gave me twenty minutes to prepare myself to
leave a place where I've just spent the majority of
my life. I just couldn't believe it. And I get
outside and my sister and my father and my uncle
right there in the lobby, and it was just like,
you know, and I still couldn't believe it. You know,
I said, man, you know. And uh, when we finally
(44:50):
got across the bridge and I got out the car
and I looked back at the prison and that's when
it hit me, like, you know, finally you know, like
you know, and what an't so much about being and free,
just about I mean that's the main thing. But I'm
finally hearing my voice and believing me. You know, right,
your truth came out. I can tell you firsthand. When
(45:11):
you are in prison, all you want is for someone
anyone to see who you truly are as a human being,
because you don't belong it. Chester. Tell me about your
life now, and I hear you have an incredible friends
that piles around which you tell me about that a
little bit. Yeah, I was. I was. I was very fortunate,
(45:35):
you know. Um. And prior to being released, I worked
in the Activities Department, a retreat and uh, they had
a dog program where they were we would get dog
from Journe County s p c. A. And they would
bring dogs in and makes the train and we had
a six month old puppy. It was a puggle, very tiny,
(45:55):
very tiny. I said, I watched this dog for for
for for months, you know what, I mean time she
was there and uh, you know, once things started piglingting
up my case. The activities managers Ty Cobeca, he was
actually in charge of the dog program anyway, He says, uh,
if things ever work out for you, I want you
to take one of these dogs. I think you should
take Buttons. The dog's name was Buttoned at the time.
(46:16):
So I was like, no, I said, I'm a kid.
If I get out, the last thing I want to
do is take care of a dog. You know, I'm
you know, that's the last thing I'm trying to do.
So you know, uh that that day came and I
found I was leaving, I was like, he said, we
need you needn't take this dog. I was like all right,
And I came, brought her home and we renamed her Journey,
(46:37):
and uh she's upstairs right now, and I and I
gotta and I gotta say this, man, you know, you know,
God does things, you know, just it's just it's just
like the way things happen. Man, It's just you know,
this dog really, like I think saved my life because
it's it's been rough out here, you know for me,
and you know, so you know, just having her and
norm when we came through and we'll be you know
where we're at now. It's just been uh, you know,
(47:00):
saving grace for me. And as far as where I'm
at now, you know, you know many people know about
the settlement. You know that was that that occurred. You know,
that brought on a whole another layer to my life,
a lot of difficulties. But that because like they say,
more money brings more problems, um and uh And that
is the truest statement I think I've ever heard in
my life. I'm not complaining about my life because you know,
(47:21):
like I said, where we came through and we had
to overcome to where we are now. You know, I
just take it all in straight and I'm grateful for
it all. But at the same time, man, it's it
ain't as easy as people may think, you know, going
through all that, and then they think because they give
you the money that life is good now, and uh,
you know, you know, it's just it's it's a lot
of process. You and I, you know, uh talk about
(47:45):
these things often, and I know you have a great
deal of wisdom. I want to know what you think
I will wrong. For conviction audience can do to help
people like us and stop this from happening to other people. Um.
And the first thing that comes to mind is uh
getting out to vote. You know these politicians that are
you know, that have been there and these uh forever
(48:05):
with these old school uh mentality. Uh, you know, people
who don't believe in justice. I mean, I don't understand,
you know, I have a hard time understanding how you
know people are so hard on l Crescent. No one's perfect.
We know that already, you know, but you know, just
seeing a few of the things that he's done in
terms of trying to write the wrongs. You know, you
(48:27):
know Innocence Project. You know, it's one thing, you know,
to get involved, Innocence Project. But there's only so much
we can do there. And Alan, do you have anything
to add I'll say the same thing Chester just said. Vote.
And I'll tell you we did everything. We got recantations,
I got news stories, we found the other witness, I
found everything. Did you know what made a difference Larry
(48:48):
Krausner got elected. It was willing to look at the
evidence in a different way. Politics is what made the difference. Jimmy,
you and Chester are free because of politics and the
old way of looking at things, doing things. The old
way of running a d a's ars prosecutor's office was
not going to ever change any of this. The only
way things are going to change is to is the
(49:11):
is the support and promotion of progressive prosecution. Period. So Chester,
we have something on wrongful conviction called closing argument. So
I'm going to hand this mic off to you, and
I want you to speak from your heart and tell
the wrongful conviction audience how you feel and what you think. Well,
I mean, um, and if I can say anything, I
was just like, it's just about bringing awareness to uh,
(49:35):
wrong for convictions. You know, prior to you know me
enter in prison and and and and seeing it firsthand,
you know, I never would have thought these things are possible.
You know you look on TV and see people being arrested,
and you know they paint this picture of guilt before innocence,
and uh, you know, I just want people to be
aware that before we jump to conclusions and and uh,
(49:56):
you know, just to to listen and to the facts
and and and learn more about these types of things. Um.
You know, in regards to the law itself, these people
have committed crimes, you know, these people that allow these
things to happen. Holding people accountable is to me, it
is more than anything. And uh, these police officers that
(50:16):
still my life, your life. So just just make I say,
bringing awareness to these types of things. And uh, you know,
I thank you guys for having me and Allen here today.
I thank you Jimmy, you know, you know I got
a lot of love for you. You know, whatever I
can do to help you, man, I'm always gonna be
there for you as well, you know. So I just
thank you all for having us. Thank you for listening
(50:42):
to Wrong for Conviction. I'm your guest host, Jimmy Dinnis.
I'd like to thank our executive producers Jason Flum and
Kevin Worters. The senior producer for this episode is Jackie
Paul and our producers are Lila Robinson and Jeff Clyde Borne.
Our edit her is Roxandra Guidi. The music in this
(51:04):
production is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.
Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction,
on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and on Twitter at
Wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good. On
(51:24):
all three platforms, you can find me on Facebook is
Jimmy Dennis on Instagram at Jimmy Dennis Music. I'm also
an R and B sanger songwriter and you can find
all my music on iTunes or wherever you get your music.
Wrong for Conviction is a production of Lava for Good
podcast in association with Signal Company Number one. Next week,
(51:58):
on the guest hosted episodes are Wrong for Conviction, Pulitzer
Prize winning author Gilbert King will interview Robert Dubois about
being sentenced to die by electrocution for a crime he
didn't commit. Gilbert is the host of Lava for Good's
newest documentary podcast, Bone Valley, which follows the story of
Leo Schofield, a man wrongly convicted for the murder of
his wife near Tampa, Florida. Leo is currently incarcerated at
(52:21):
Florida State Prison, the same prison where Robert Dubas was
held for twenty eight long years. In this fascinating interview,
Gilbert will talk to Robert about the shoddy police work
and junk science that leaded Robert on death route. Listen
next Monday in the Wrongful Conviction podcast Feed
I'm Jason Flom, host of Wrongful Conviction. Over the years,
hundreds of exonreies have told me their stories, and sadly,
with the state of our criminal legal system, we're left
with far more cases than I can possibly handle alone.
So I've asked some axonrerees to handle some of these cases,
bringing the kind of perspective to the interviews that could
only come from living through their own wrongful convictions. This
(00:23):
is one of those interviews. On a hot August night
in one University of Pennsylvania grad students, A Jung Hope
was walking with his friend near Rittenhouse Square in Philadelphia.
A white Chevy blazer with four people inside pulled up
beside them. Two of them got out of the car,
(00:46):
robbed a jung Hoe and shot him. He died of
his injuries. A few hours later. A cab driver witnessed
the shooting. He told police what he saw and what
he remembered of the license place the first three letters
Y C A, just say. A few minutes later, the
(01:06):
police pulled over a white Chevy Blazer with Y C
A on the plate. They thought they caught the criminal.
He was a twenty one year old Chester home in
the third, he didn't match the description of the shooter,
and there were only two people in his car, not four.
(01:26):
Chester didn't have a weapon nor anything from the robbery. Nevertheless,
he was arrested and taken to the station. In May,
he was senting to life in prison without the possibility
of parole. This is wrongful conviction. My name is Jimmy A. Dennis.
(01:58):
I spent years on death road for a crime I
didn't commit. I was a guest on role for conviction
and talked to Jason about my own experience in the
criminal justice system years ago. But today I'll be your
guest host. I'm here with Chester home in the third.
Here and I know each other well. Our stories overlap
and highlight the patterns of misconduct in the Philadelphia criminal
(02:21):
justice system. Chester. As Jason always says, I'm happy you're here,
but I'm not happy that you're here. Could you introduce yourself,
Um Chester Holman Uh, I've served twenty eight years on
the wrong for conviction. I have now I've been home
since two thousand of nineteen, and today we're also joined
(02:41):
by your attorney, Alan Tarboro. Thank you for joining us today. Alan.
Could you introduce yourself as well? HELLI, Jimmy. My name
is Alan Tarboro. I'm an attorney. I've been practicing law
since n most of which has been criminal defense and
civil rights. And I met Chester and two thousand four,
two thousand five. I had the distinction and honor of
(03:05):
representative for fifteen years before we actually want his exoneration.
Every time I see him and talk to him, uh
outside of the prisiondents just brightens my heart. Remarkable, Chester,
I want to ask you, my friend, what was your
life like prior to being stolen away for a crime
(03:26):
you didn't commit. I was born in Chester, Pennsylvania. Um,
that's where I grew up. And then we uh, at
some point we moved to Delaware, Womanton, Delaware. You know
it was Um, I said it was. It was a
regular life, you know with my father worked very hard.
You know, my mother was on dialysis. Uh. You know,
me and my sister, you know, we were involved and
(03:47):
you know from the time I remember with sports and
some type of activity. You know, I went to community
college and I started off at a Womanton community college
and I moved to Field Up Community College and I
was studying actual criminal justice. I didn't know which field
I wanted to go into I know it was law
enforcement or you know, some type of legal field, but
that's what I was doing. And then I got a
job at as an armored car guard. I was driving
(04:09):
for Brooks Armor Car. I went moved to Philadelphia down
North Philly Broad and Gerard, and uh I was there
and uh, you know, just living my life. I thought
the world was my oyster. And I think I had
all these plans of of how things were going to
eventually end up being and uh, just one that one
tragic night, it just all came to a crashing end.
(04:30):
And uh it's for the next twenty years trying to
get back. When you practice criminal defense, one of the
old adages is one of these you hear is like,
there's no such thing as coincidences, right, But the other
rule is there's always an exception of that case, and
and Chester Holman's case is the exception. Chester was the
victim of, you know, many things, but most substantially he
(04:53):
was the victim of a very very remarkable and crazy coincidence.
And that is in this case, which was a terrible
case of a terrible, brutal killing of a student, the
perpetrators drove up to this young man at one am
(05:14):
in Center City was walking home from a I was
walking home from the University of Pennsylvania campus and Um,
there were four people in a white Chevy Blazer. Two
of them two men get out, two women remained in
the car as sort of the getaway driver. The two
men run up to the victim, pushed him to the ground, Um,
shoot him and and rob him of his wallet. He
(05:36):
there was a woman with him. His friend standing directly
next to him witnessed the entire thing from three ft
to three ft away. They get into a white Chevy
Blazer and drive away. It's one am, it's hot August night.
Actually a lot of people out in Center City, and
the vehicle is trailed is followed by a cab driver
who witnesses this, and the cab driver gets half of
(05:58):
the vehicle's tag, follows him through traffic for a few
blocks and disappears. Y z A right, that was the
letters doesn't get the numbers as the vehicle turns out
to have been rented by I think it was Enterprise. Um,
they had three Idea, three identical vehicles on rental in
Philadelphia that same day, and the vehicle what what What
(06:22):
made this even more astonishing is they bought and put
into service these three vehicles at the same day. So
when they registered them, they got tags y Z A
zero zero one, Why Z A zero zero two? Why
is these zers are three? And the cab driver only
got the letters that repeated, not the numbers. As it happens,
(06:43):
Chester's driving one of those other vehicles that had been
rented by his roommate and had been loaned given to
him to use that weekend. He's driving towards the crime scene.
He's stopped five minutes, not five minutes after the murder,
driving towards the crime scene, in the identical vehicle with
the same tag, and he meets the general description of
(07:05):
what one of the perpetrators of like the young woman
in the car with him DJ Jones meet met the
general description of what of one of the women in
the car, and they and they stopped him. And I
mean I could imagine you're a young police officer and
that's who stopped him. You're thinking, man, I I just
solve this crime. I got h you know, you know
you got a car with the tag. You're thinking you
(07:26):
solve the crime. Well, at all the people involved in
this case, were then convinced they solve the crime. Never
Mind that Chester was not wearing his clothing didn't match
any of the description the witnesses gave. Never Mind that
there were only two people, not four people in the car.
Never Mind there's no no proceeds of the robbery, no weapon,
and he's driving back to towards the scene. Never Mind
(07:47):
all that. Never Mind the fact that the young woman
who was with the person who was killed can't identify Chester.
Other than the vehicle. Nothing else lined up. Chester, Tell
me about your that night and you were out and
what you were doing and where you were going and
whom you had with you. Talk about that a little
(08:08):
bit for me, all right. Just returned home from Delaware.
I went down to my parents house, and I spent
most of the day in Delaware, and I was there
to about maybe midnight. Um, I left there and I
went home to where I lived on Broaden. Gerard came
out the garage, went around front, and I passed Dedre
her sister, and uh. I spoke to him, and she
(08:29):
dedresked me where I was going and se up to
my apartment. So and then I said, what do you
want to do now? Because This was my first full
day of vacation. I had never had a vacation in
my my life on the job. So you know that
Monday I was starting vacation for a week vacation in
a paid vacation. Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. Yes,
I'm excited, you know I'm not. I ain't ready to
(08:50):
go to sleep this Saturday night. I mean, I was like,
let's let's you want to go somewhere, but we didn't
know where to go. So I was like, listen, I
had a friend who lived down on fifty second in Greenway,
so let's go down here check out him. So we
get downstairs and I had a black Toyota sell like
a g T at the time. And then we also
had the Blazer, so I asked her which, of course
(09:10):
she wanted to take. So we just let's take the
Blazer and put the miles on that car rather than
my car. So so we get out, we pull out,
and we circle around and we go straight down the
broad Street. As soon as we turned onto Lombard, there
was I mean, there wasn't a car or person in sight. Man,
I've never seen Philly like this. I mean, it was
like like a dead zone. So I knew something wasn't right,
(09:33):
but I kept going and uh, I turned the music
down and we approached the first light on Lombard and uh,
I stopped at that light and I saw a police
car going north. So when the light turned green, I
proceeded forward, and you know, I'm looking in the river
view mirrors next to you know, the lights pop on.
(09:55):
Sounds like damn, what do I do? So I pull
over and like a half a block down, I pull
over and next thing you know, they jumped out with
guns drawn. I know that was very uncomfortable. Yeah, so
I asked, you, said, what we did? What we do?
She said, I don't know, I don't know. Next thing
you know, they're in front of the car with the
guns pointed at us. You know, we got our hands
(10:16):
up and it took us out of the car and
UH put the handcuffs on us, and uh, this is
your nightmare began. Yes, tell me how you felt being
arrested and then subsequently um being taken to the police
station and what happened in that interrogation room with those
(10:38):
police detectives. Well, that that night, after we were put
out the car, I was placed in the back of
a police car, and Uh, I saw d being placed
in another car and I didn't I didn't know where
we were going, but later found out we were being
taken to the scene of the crime. So when we
got there, Uh, there was like maybe four or five
people underneath the street. Like I saw a police officers
(11:01):
take these four or five people, whoever whatever it was,
go to Deeeder's where she was, and they opened the
back door and I saw him looking and then they
came back and UH did the same thing to me,
and I made sure I stepped my head out so
they could see me. And you know, everybody was like
I heard everybody said, that's not him, that's not him.
And then Uh, I heard over the police radio saying
the guy had died. Take him to take the suspect
(11:24):
to homicide. So I said what So when I heard that,
I said, I said, you know, my first thought is
this is a murder. So you know, I was like, what,
So I'm telling I said, officer, I said, you got
the wrong guy. I'm talking, you got the wrong guy.
And when I get in the car, when the officers
said that you're done now, he said, you're never gonna
see the light of day and I was like, you know,
(11:45):
I'm just sitting in his back seat like kind the
world has happened. So we get to apan race and
they take me upstairs and put me in this room
that's freezing, and I see this green chair. This bolted
to the floor. So they put me in his chair.
They handcuffed me to this chair, and I'm just sitting
there like freezing, like this cannot be happened. So my
(12:09):
first interaction with the officer was Detective Jeff Pyry. He
came in and I'm I'm a little excited, like to
tell my story and try to get this all worked out.
So I'm thinking it's gonna work out. And he comes
in and punches me right in the mouth. He said,
you're like killing people in my city, right, you know.
I mean. So I was just like looking at him.
I don't know what to say or do. So I'm
(12:29):
just sitting there and uh, he walks out. I'm sitting
there just like stunned, like this is it's just bad.
I'm just saying this is bad. I told him, I said,
I worked for Brooks Army Car you know, I mean,
I said, I don't know what happened. I said, but
I drive around millions of dollars. I'm in and out
of the banks Garden State Park. Wait, were there picking
up money? I mean, I'm I got three million dollars
(12:50):
on the average in the back of my truck every day. Right,
you are an honorable citizen. You are a good citizen
of Philadelphia. Care. Yeah, So I said, if I wanted
to rob somebody, I'm not gonna commerce on the street.
I'm a pull this truck and just keep going. Looking back.
Where I feel like I really messed up was first
of all, speaking to him in the first place. But
I just figured that, you know, since I had nothing
(13:11):
to hide, it was okay to talk. And then by
me working for Brooks, you know, I thought that would
just like bolster my my innocence and showed him I
had no reason to rob anybody. But it didn't happen.
So I told him that I had a gun back
in my apartment, my work gun, and uh, I told
him where it was in my apartment. So I got
my badge, my bulletproof rounds of AMMO was in my
(13:32):
bottom drawer inside my bedroom. And uh, you know, later
on down the road, come to find out that was
all used against me. You did not mess up. We
are taught in this country that the police are our
friends from the time we are babies, and that we
are supposed to go down to the police station, cooperate
(13:52):
and do us right. And that's all you did. You
did with any actual citizen would do. Now we know
that you can't even and talk to them at all
because they are not trustworthy. That is exactly what Chester's
mindset was. Because we've talked about this, you were like,
you thought they would figure it out, they would work
This is gonna get worked out, They're going to get
(14:13):
to the bottom. And this is a mistake. At some point,
the police stopped becoming detectives, they stopped trying to discern
the truth, and they start becoming advocates and they start
to do. Everything they do is to build the case
to make it stronger against who they've in their judgment
where they've decided is guilty, as opposed to continuing to
(14:34):
investigate and try to get to the actual truth. Tunnel vision. Yeah,
and that's that is one of the things I've learned
in the system is that police the culture or the
science of policing more the culture policing is we are
trying to get to the truth to a point. But
once we've decide, or we discern in our judgment who
(14:57):
it is, everything at that point beca is how to
build a case against that person. And they will ignore
other evidence, they will suppress other evidence, they will hiw that,
they will destroy it correct, and that's a problem. This
(15:22):
episode is underwritten by global law firm Greenberg triaric through
its pro bono program, Greenberg Triary leverages it's more than
lawyers across forty two offices to serve the greater good
of our communities and provide equal access to justice for all.
In the field of criminal justice, Greenberg Triary attorneys have
exonerated and Freedom and in Philadelphia represent numerous individuals previously
(15:44):
sentenced to life for crimes committed as juveniles and resentencing hearings,
and received the American part Association Exceptional Service Award for
Death Penalty Representation for their work on five death penalty cases.
GT is reimagining what big law can be you as
a more just world only happens by design. So, while
(16:10):
let's talk about some of the players in the case,
can you tell me about the police investigating the crime.
Let's start with David Baker, who was the detective who
who took the key statement in this case, which was
dear Ja Jones statement, Chester's friend who was in the car.
So she signs a seven eight page single space statement
extraordinarily detailed about the events of the night. I mean
(16:35):
with detail that you would not be able to provide
unless you were there minute to minute. So how does
that happen? How does David Baker get the statement? So
over the course of the night, the police are interviewing
numerous witnesses there there probably were eight, ten, twelve people
(16:55):
who were interviewed who were witnesses, including Chester. So they
are gathering lots and lots of details and lots and
lots of information, and and throughout the night they're going
in to see dear just saying you know, you're gonna
tell us what happened. She's like, you know, she sticks
to it. I'm not involved. I don't know what happened.
I couldn't tell you. And eventually, um, they they get
(17:17):
her to relent um. They threatened to take her children away,
they threatened to charge her with as a conspirator, that
she's going to go to jail for life. The straw.
That breaks I think that breaks the camel's back for her.
She she's not getting a lawyer, is They walk in
with Chester statement, which of course is completely exculpatory, and
they say, oh, your boyfriend has confessed. He's testified. I mean,
(17:39):
he's going to jail. You're not gonna help us, We'll
just charge you. He's already admitted it, which of course
he didn't. So she signs the statement and that's how
this David Baker gets a statement. So so he David
Baker was instrumental in in another exoneration that happened roughly
around the same time the case was a little was
(18:01):
was was a little later Aunt Anthony Raight. Obviously, Jimmy,
you know Anthony Ray. Anthony Ray was exonerated about a
year before Chester, same detective, same emo um, virtually very
very similar situation. But but Jimmy, it's important to note that,
I mean, this is not exclusive to David Baker. I
(18:21):
think what you see in the exonerations that have occurred
over the past five years and even before is a
pattern of this sort of these sort of tactics that
existed across the homicide unit. David Baker was by no
means the worst of the detectives I think. I think
David Baker was was more of a sort of ordinary
(18:43):
regular detective who just followed the path that was before him.
That's a really good point, Alan, because it's not just
one bad officer. We always talk about these bad apples,
but what happens to Apple Core When you have one
bad apple, it ruins the whole bunch. And what we're
talking about, it's a culture that encourages this behavior and
(19:06):
ultimately leads to innocent people like myself and Chester home
and having decades of their life destroyed behind bars for
something that we didn't do. And so now, Alan, I
want to talk about some of the witnesses. Tell me
about how the police built this case against Chester. But
first let's talk about Andre Dawkins. He ends up being
(19:29):
a pretty important to the state's case. Talk about that.
Andre Dawkins was a I believe at the time he
may have been homeless, he was inn He was sweeping
up a parking lot at a gas station down the
block from where the murder happened. And Andre Dawkins, you know,
(19:49):
had a very tough life. He had substance abuse issues,
he had mental health issues. He had many many arrests
and condections for petty thefts and petty offenses. Um he
had open cases at the time. He had a bench
warrant at the time, and the police he threatened to
be incarcerated in twelve different ways. And basically they had
(20:10):
him to identify Chester, make an idea of Chester. But
that was Andre Dawkins, and Andre Dawkins recant his idea
years later. He was the first one to recant. You know,
we met him, I would say about eight or ten
years later, and he could not have been more remorseful
about doing what he did. It was it was astonishing
how much he remembered. The lead detective, not David Baker
(20:33):
was another detective is now deceased. Knew where Andre hung out.
He hung around in a certain part of Center City.
And Andre told me that for the entire year or
so between the arrest and the trial, this detective would
show up and give him give him money every week.
All of this history, all of his history, was unavailable
(20:55):
to Chester's lawyer at the time. The prosecutor had it,
Roger King had it was in the file and it
could have been used to impeach him and Roger King
kept that he hit it, so the jury didn't get
the benefit of knowing about Andre's background and all the
reasons why he would not have been a credible witness. So,
Alan you mentioned Roger King, I know him very well. UM,
(21:17):
So explain a little more about who Roger King was.
His reputation in Philadelphia at this time. Roger King was
a bit of a legend in Philadelphia. UM, a very
sort of charismatic African American prosecutor. He came from Alabama.
His dad was a minister. He clearly was raised with this. Uh,
(21:43):
he learned the language of of preaching, let's put it
that way. Yes, Yes, he was very theatrical, very theatrical,
and was very very effective and deployed that in in
the courts in Philadelphia. Um. And and you know, in
a very cynical way. The District Attorney's office would bring
him out and assigned these cases where race was clearly
(22:06):
you know, they would they would never they would never
say it, but obviously they would deploy him in a
in a very you know where race was a question.
I'll say exactly what it was for you, just for
the wrong of conviction. Listening to audience, Um, what Island
has been speaking to are the dirty tactics of the
(22:27):
Philadelphia Police Department Homicide Division. Threatening a witness is not uncommon.
They did it in Chester case, they did in an
Anthony Right case, they did it in Jimmy Dennis case,
my case Right. And they would threaten to witness, tell
them they put him in jail, tell me they take
away their kids, so on and so forth and then
and in terms of Roger King, he would lie, he
(22:49):
would cheat, he was still, he would pay witnesses. He
was nothing more than an evil man. He was very
He was a very a moral person at a very
immoral prosecutor. So prosecutor's duty is to do justice, and
for Roger King, doing justice was winning at all costs.
There was there was no review, There was no reconsideration,
(23:12):
There was no reflection should new evidence come up. In
Chester's case, we found a hidden evidence that he hit
that was hidden in his file, uh that he didn't
turn over. And then and then after the trial when
it was discovered, tried to say this was that he
wasn't aware of it was accidental. It was in his
file with time stamps that showed he had this before
(23:35):
trial justice, speak to me about your charges. What what
were you charged with? And then subsequently when they took
you to the county prison. Because I want people to
understand and know that is something to being prisoned, period,
but it is a different animal when you are innocent.
Speak to that if you will. I was smarless numb
(23:57):
because I couldn't believe it. This was happening. You know
what I'm saying. You watch TV all the time and
you see all these different things on TV about these
police shows, and I like, but you never see this.
And I just one of the officers. I said, look,
can I use the phone? So I haven't got on
the phone, said when I called my mom, Well, when
I called, you know, I was so relieved to hear
a VOICEMANHI up the Phone's like it was only a
half a ring. She had already put up the phone.
(24:18):
And uh, even if I could say anything, she had
already told me because it was all over the news.
I said, Mom, I we're gonna need a lawyer, and
she said, we're already working on it. And um, I said, uh,
We're gonna need the best lawyer, and uh, you know,
I'm crying back and forth. We both crying. My mom,
we're crying. But at the same time I realized and
I can't keep probably just you know, being here, I need.
I knew that much, so she said, um, we're gonna
(24:40):
get a lawyer. You know, We're gonna get you out
of there. So I'm believing that. And I didn't know
the uh, you know, with murder charges carried, I don't know.
I was looking at life. I ain't none of that.
I just knew it was it was. It was bad.
And I end up going to d C. D C
had no cells and they put me in this hallway
and we were just lyned. It was just guys lined
up in this hallway and I'm sleeping on the floor
(25:03):
and uh, you know, I'm just looking around like this
cannot be happening. I was there. I was on in
d C for I think it was two days. And uh,
they told me, because I had a homicide and it
was a high profile homicide, that I was gonna be
moved to a Homesburg prison and that is the roughest
county prison and Philadelphi is the worst of the worst.
(25:24):
And I didn't know that at the time, and I saponed.
I walked on the block. I saw my face on
the TV and I see like the whole block just
got quiet, and everybody's looking back at me, and I'm like,
oh my god. So they take me and they put
me in the cell, all in the back, and they
give me a single cell by myself. And I was
in itself maybe ten minutes and these old, three old
(25:45):
guys came into the cell that you know, and open
the gate. You know, I'm thinking, first thing in my
mind that they about to attack me, you know, and
you know that's what I'm thinking. And uh, it was
three old Muslim guys and they came in there and
they just basically told me and we saw your situation
on TV just listening. He said, you're gonna be hard.
And they gave me to run down of the block.
They said, look, mind your business, you know what I mean,
(26:05):
Respect one another, you know, don't look at nobody's cell.
And that's and that's what I got. That that was
my my lesson. They gave you the layer of land
and you you were very fortunate to have those good
Muslim brothers. Uh. I wish you knew their names so
we could call their names out. So when you get
to trial. You know, now know that you are going
(26:27):
to trial, how does that make you feel? I was
real hopeful, you know, and I said, there's no way
that a jury can find me because the jury isn't
corrupt like the police officers and the district attorney of
these are people of my peers. So I heard a
little bit more hope. Uh So, you know, preparing for trial,
you know, watching the whole process unfold, I'm listening to
(26:49):
Roger King. I'm watching all his movements and listening to
his all his antics. You know, I said, man, this
this is gonna be a battle right here. And I
was just wondering, you know, if my attorney at that
time was just on s time was up for it.
I just didn't, you know, I know. They it came
to me with a deal, you know, offer me like
the five to ten. They were like, listen, um, just
(27:10):
take the deal, you know, and uh give up a
shooter and you know you've got three years left and
you'll be home. Let me speak to that real quick though,
because that's another tactic. Every single one of us who
had a high profile case was offered to do, and
every single one of us ex honorees in Philadelphia said no,
(27:35):
and that's what you did. Chester. Once again, this speaks
to his innocence, but it speaks strongly to his character.
So I'll just say this, the deal that was offered
was a phenomenal deal given the jeopardy that Chester faced.
Life without parole in Pennsylvania is life without parole. There's
(27:55):
no there's no loophole, there's no escape valve. I mean,
there are innocent people who would have taken the ideal,
I can assure you, given given the fear of facing
life in jail. So it's no small bit of bravery
not to take that. I'll just say that. And for me,
that's why Chester is in my phone as a champion.
(28:17):
He's a brave guy, So that's no small feat. Prodrick
King presents the state's case. And they have the victim's
friend who was standing next to him when the robbery
and murder happened. They have Andre Dawkins, whom they were
paying to lie for them, and they have your friend Dedrew,
(28:41):
who they threatened to get this statement. Alan. Let's talk
about the defense and what did Chester lawyer gerald Stein present.
So I thought, um, Jerry did a good job, very
good job with what he had. Um he crossed examined
Andre Dawkins very effectively again for what he had. He
didn't have all of his backgrounds. Chester were you when
(29:05):
you were sitting there in that courtroom and you had
all these lives being bandied about about you? How did
you feel that your attorney had done for you in
his representation of you? Looking back, I mean, you know,
and going back to that moment um, you know, it's
it's all new to me, Jimmy. You know what I'm saying,
It's it's all new. So I'm watching it as it unfolds,
(29:27):
and I'm I'm hearing it. I'm knowing these are lies. Uh,
And you know, at this point, I'm just like it
was a fifty fifty like Alan said, you know, I
think he did the best of what he could, you know,
with what he had. But the thing for me and
gerald Stein where we differ was that, Uh, I wanted
to testify, and I was very adamant on testifying, but
(29:48):
gerald Stein had told me that I wasn't going to testify,
and he told me that he was going to relinquish
himself from the case if I testified. So, uh, my
mom and my grandmother you know, they were so trusting
of you know, the attorney who we don't know. But
I said, okay, I said, you know, I said, I'm
gonna trust this, okay, And I didn't end up testifying.
(30:10):
You would literally put in a no win situation because
here it is, the decision was yours because it's your life,
your life. He said that, Uh, Roger King will tell
your part. He did say that. But my whole, my
whole mindset was always from the very beginning, was I
have nothing to hide, man, I have nothing to hide,
and you just want the jury and everyone in courtroom
(30:33):
to know the truth. I did it. I I totally
get it. I was gonna say, Jimmy, I was just
gonna say, like the conventional wisdom, and this is, you know,
what you learned coming up is it's better not to testify.
Once you exercise you're right to testify, in some large way,
the case becomes a referendum on your testimony. It's generally
(30:54):
perceived to be a very risky move. One bad answer
or you get into a bad little line of questioning
and you may have a strong case, but you could
lose jurors because now they think you're not being honest
or you don't have a good answer for one thing.
There's a lot of people doing a lot of time
because they they chose to exercise their right to testify.
Like I just felt like all these negative things have
(31:16):
been said about me that you know, and I haven't
had an opportunity to say anything. This was my one opportunity,
and I was I was willing to take the chance.
I said, they gave me the def penalty of life whatever,
I didn't care. I said, you know, I want to
be at the sentiment and fight for myself. Even after
we found guilty, I didn't never got to speak to it.
After I got out of prison. This is twenty years later,
(31:38):
So twenty years of silence. We all on wrong for conviction.
Wanted to have you on here was to give you
a voice that you hadn't had for so many years.
And so we are immensely glad that you and island
that showed up today. Tell me about when you were
foundly when you would convict at trial Chester and uh
(32:03):
was your family in the courtroom, how did everybody feel,
and what happened that day when the jury came back
with their verdict man um that was Yeah, that was
that was That was I think the roughest day of
my life. Actually, uh, my fate of my my future
(32:24):
was right here in these people's hands. And uh, you know,
listening to Roger King make his his final argument and
you know, my my attorney, and I was just like,
you know, this can go either way. You know, I'm
sitting here and knowing I'm innocent, but at the same
time listening to Roger King, and I'm like, you know,
he got me questioning myself, you know, because his his
his his closing argument was just ridiculous. You know what
(32:46):
I'm saying, I'm just like, did I do it? You know,
because it was just that compelling. I very well know
that he came and pulled out all the stops and
probably even told the jury and everyone in the courtroom
that it was a society right to convict you that
if they didn't, they were basically letting a criminal back
(33:08):
on the streets, because that's what he has did. And
every single closing the argument tried to get the public
to take up arms for justice and convict an innocent person. Yeah. So,
after after the after conclusion of all that, you know, uh,
you know, I looked at East juror and uh, the
jury foreman he looked at me and he winked, you know,
(33:30):
and give me like a you know, heads like a
head nod, and I'm okay, maybe maybe they do believe,
you know, and uh they went out and uh, I
think it was maybe like a day and a half.
When they came back in, no one looked at me.
You know, it wasn't the same as when they went out.
So my my heart immediately fell, you know, into my stomach,
and I'm just like, this is not gonna be good.
(33:52):
But I still was holding on this a little bit
of hope. So the judge you know, read off his
spill and then uh, you know, he asked for a
verdict and they came back and they read the first
degree and it was it was not guilty. So I
was excited. I'm like, okay, all right, maybe this is
you know okay. I had then when they said the
second degree and uh they said so m hm no,
(34:22):
they said, um, they said guilty, and you know, I
was just like, you know how how you know how?
And then they read off the other charges murdering, you know,
I just I didn't understand, and I turned around, I
looked at my mother, and my mother's face was just
like I can still see it so clearly. I mean,
(34:43):
she was just like she was devastated. You know. My father,
he was just sitting there and you know, but my
mom's face as well. I'll never forget. So after that,
I just did. I heard nothing else. I remember my
knees buckled a little bit and I fell down a
little bit, and and they asked me if I had
anything to say, and I told you, Jesse, they got
(35:04):
it wrong. I said, you know, this is this is wrong.
I said, you know, I said, I've never lied, you
know about my innocence, you know, and I read it
all down and you know he had but he never
even didn't hear nothing. I said, that was a wrap.
(35:31):
I guarantee. I listen to audience. If you go and
look at everybody trial transcripts who's been on wrong for conviction,
you will see that when they sentenced us, that we
stood before that judge and we said, once again, you're
getting it wrong. We're innocent, we didn't do it. We
(35:52):
don't be long here, so and so forth. Talk to
me Chester about your After all the years go by,
what was your lowest point being incarcerrated upstate, and then
we'll get to what your highest point was. But I
want the audience to know what was your lowest point
in prison for something you didn't do. There were many
(36:14):
low low points. I think the entire twenty years a
low point. But I think my lowest point was I
was losing my mom. Yeah, because she had been my
strongest advocate, my my biggest supporter, um and she was
like everything everything to me. And uh, when you lose
a loved one, it's gonna be tough, really in prison
(36:34):
or not. But being in prison, you know, it's I
think it's even harder because, like I said, you know,
it's the one person I would I would did anything
for my life, you know, and did everything for me.
And to go back into that block and not be
he to cry and shed a tear and and show
this weakness, you know, it was it was, it was.
It was hard. You can't do that in prison. You
(36:56):
couldn't even grieve. My mom had always told me, you know,
I talked my mom every day. If there's a way
to a will, there was a way to go on
that phone. I got on the phone and I called
her every day, and she always told me every day
and end of the phone call, do not lose yourself.
And she told me that every single phone call, do
not lose yourself, and uh, you know, and then begin.
(37:17):
I don't know what that meant, but as time went on,
I said, Okay, should be the man and I raised
you to be. And uh, you know, that's that's all
I tried to do. Man. You know, I said, these
people have smeared my name, They've taking my freedom. I said,
you know, I'm going to show them that they're wrong.
You know. So I just tried to move by my
actions and uh, carry myself in a way that would
(37:37):
speak louder than my voice could speak. Did you take
any classes? Did you did you immerse yourself in the law?
Did you did you have any hobbies? Um to make
the time go by while you were fighting to prove
your innocence. You know, I I definitely immerged my myself
into the law. I've read a lot of books, did
(37:58):
a lot of working out, you know. Matter of fact,
I worked out more and probably than that I did eating.
I was I was actually the strongest guy in the prison.
You know. I had broken so many different records, you know,
just trying to take because I was that anger was
being directed towards these weights. So I was benching like
four fifty five and that's crazy, you know, but what
do you bet you that? What do you bet you now?
(38:21):
Maybe one thirty five? You know. Yeah, But it was
all about just trying to stay you know, stay sharp
the mind and physically. You know, I said, this is
gonna be a long fight, so I wanted to, you know,
keep my wits about me and my physical health. So
I did everything I could to keep both sharp. So
kind of summarize what happened in these twenty five years,
(38:45):
you know, because there were pills based on recantations by
Deedre Jones and Andre Dawkins, and all of those pills
were toned. So I know that it had to be
such a dehabilitating process for you and is were looking bleak,
but you were holding onto hope. Tell me about when
you knew that the ebbs of life were turning in
(39:07):
your favor. Talk to me a little bit about that,
chester about when things start to turn in your favor.
I'm saying maybe year maybe things I think things started.
You know, it was more talk and I think my
case was on the front page of the Daily News
and all the staff had it and inmates had it,
and I'm like, maybe there's you know, maybe things are
(39:29):
starting to move. And so this is right around the
time when Larry Krasner gets elected. This was a huge
day for people in Philadelphia because we had never had
a district attorney speak loudly and clearly about innocent people
being in prison and trying to right those wrongs. And
(39:52):
one of the one of the most important things he
did was he hired Patricia Cummings to have the Conviction
Integrity UNI. She becomes his number one. So, Alan, tell
me about when that process took place, in the petition
that you wrote and got in front of Patricia Cummins,
and how all that came to be. I had our
(40:15):
petition drawn up, she comes in. I think I walked
over there and handed it to her the day after
she started. So she called me about two weeks later
and said, you know, I read your letter. We're very
interested in this case. We're definitely gonna take this up,
and I've ordered the homicide file for you to review,
which that came in about a month later, and then
we found that other evidence in the homicide file. I
(40:37):
opened the file, and what was, without a question, like
the Perry Mason moment of my life. I pulled a
folder out. The first thing is pulled this folder out.
It's a memo from a police officer who man's the
tip line. The night of the crime, they received an
anonymous tip essentially identifying Denise Combs as the driver of
(40:58):
the getaway car. As I said in the beginning, there
were three rented Chevy Blazers with the same time, roughly
the same tag, but Denise and rent was the name
on the rental agreement for the one of the other vehicles.
And you know, we believed she was involved. Um, we
we spent a long time looking for her. Not that
it was not that easy to find her, believe it
(41:19):
or not. But when we did, she was very welcoming
and we spoke to her many numerous occasions. I mean,
she never admitted involvement in the case, but she said
a lot of things that were kind of astonishing. Actually,
in one of the interviews, she said that was out
of thirty eight we had to get rid of because
there was a quote unquote body on it, and of
(41:40):
course a thirty eight was used in this case. This
that was the gun used in this case, and she
says this to us, and that memo with the information
the anonymous tip identifying her gets buried in the homicide
file never turned over. So all, bring me to the
day when you know that Chester is going to be released.
(42:02):
Tell me how you felt, Tell me how his family felt,
Tell me where you're able to reach out to Chester
and let him know that she was coming. Again, we
go to this hearing. The judge ordered this hearing. We
didn't know she was going to release Chester that day.
We just thought she had some questions and she asked
us a handful of questions as well, I want to
release him today. Can you give me an order? And
(42:23):
Patricia comes to you know, the d A and I
look at each other like yeah. We sit down and
we write a hand rate in order, you know, give
it to the judge and she signs it and Facts
faxes it up to the prison. And then it was
like we all jump in our cars. I called Chester's family.
We all jump in our cars and we're like, you know,
it's like the amazing race we're trying to get who's
(42:44):
gonna get to the prison first. You know, that's an
incredible story. That's an incredible moment for you as attorney,
and I just want to say thank you for being
a vessel that helped reunite Chester with his family. What
you did was no, no short of being heroic. Um Chester,
(43:04):
how did you feel about that? When Alan is telling you,
even before you got released, how did you feel about that?
It wasn't really until I got across that bridge that
you know, my shoulders straighten up a little bit, because
you know, as you already know, Jimmy, you know what
I mean. I'm I'm, I'm I'm twenty eight years in
and you know, I hear to talk and I hear
all the rumblings, but at the same time, it's like,
(43:25):
I'm still here. You know when that that that morning
when they called me back to the block and uh,
the counselor called me upstairs. She says, um, I need
you to pack your stuff. You're gonna be going home
tomorrow morning. You know, I thought she's playing. It's like
get over there, and she says, uh, uh the judge
is called and uh, they're releasing you today. So I'm
(43:45):
just like how, you know how and she's like, I
don't know, but you're going home. You know, it's just
like you know, you don't, you don't. You know, your hope,
but you don't, you know, you don't believe. It's just
you know what I mean. So it was just everything
just so surreal, and you know, and before I can
get back to my cell, which is on the other
side of the block, the whole jail had already already
(44:06):
found out, and I had white shirts, captains, sergeants, you know,
everybody coming to myself congratulate me. And I didn't have it.
I didn't have an opportunity to really process it, you know.
So now on the Capital of Security, he's telling me
you have to get outside, you have to get out
the prison because now you're considered a civilian. I'm like, yeah,
I've just been here twenty five years. Now you tell
(44:27):
me I gotta go. He's yeah, you got twenty minutes.
So they gave me twenty minutes to prepare myself to
leave a place where I've just spent the majority of
my life. I just couldn't believe it. And I get
outside and my sister and my father and my uncle
right there in the lobby, and it was just like,
you know, and I still couldn't believe it. You know,
I said, man, you know. And uh, when we finally
(44:50):
got across the bridge and I got out the car
and I looked back at the prison and that's when
it hit me, like, you know, finally you know, like
you know, and what an't so much about being and free,
just about I mean that's the main thing. But I'm
finally hearing my voice and believing me. You know, right,
your truth came out. I can tell you firsthand. When
(45:11):
you are in prison, all you want is for someone
anyone to see who you truly are as a human being,
because you don't belong it. Chester. Tell me about your
life now, and I hear you have an incredible friends
that piles around which you tell me about that a
little bit. Yeah, I was. I was. I was very fortunate,
(45:35):
you know. Um. And prior to being released, I worked
in the Activities Department, a retreat and uh, they had
a dog program where they were we would get dog
from Journe County s p c. A. And they would
bring dogs in and makes the train and we had
a six month old puppy. It was a puggle, very tiny,
(45:55):
very tiny. I said, I watched this dog for for
for for months, you know what, I mean time she
was there and uh, you know, once things started piglingting
up my case. The activities managers Ty Cobeca, he was
actually in charge of the dog program anyway, He says, uh,
if things ever work out for you, I want you
to take one of these dogs. I think you should
take Buttons. The dog's name was Buttoned at the time.
(46:16):
So I was like, no, I said, I'm a kid.
If I get out, the last thing I want to
do is take care of a dog. You know, I'm
you know, that's the last thing I'm trying to do.
So you know, uh that that day came and I
found I was leaving, I was like, he said, we
need you needn't take this dog. I was like all right,
And I came, brought her home and we renamed her Journey,
(46:37):
and uh she's upstairs right now, and I and I
gotta and I gotta say this, man, you know, you know,
God does things, you know, just it's just it's just
like the way things happen. Man, It's just you know,
this dog really, like I think saved my life because
it's it's been rough out here, you know for me,
and you know, so you know, just having her and
norm when we came through and we'll be you know
where we're at now. It's just been uh, you know,
(47:00):
saving grace for me. And as far as where I'm
at now, you know, you know many people know about
the settlement. You know that was that that occurred. You know,
that brought on a whole another layer to my life,
a lot of difficulties. But that because like they say,
more money brings more problems, um and uh And that
is the truest statement I think I've ever heard in
my life. I'm not complaining about my life because you know,
(47:21):
like I said, where we came through and we had
to overcome to where we are now. You know, I
just take it all in straight and I'm grateful for
it all. But at the same time, man, it's it
ain't as easy as people may think, you know, going
through all that, and then they think because they give
you the money that life is good now, and uh,
you know, you know, it's just it's it's a lot
of process. You and I, you know, uh talk about
(47:45):
these things often, and I know you have a great
deal of wisdom. I want to know what you think
I will wrong. For conviction audience can do to help
people like us and stop this from happening to other people. Um.
And the first thing that comes to mind is uh
getting out to vote. You know these politicians that are
you know, that have been there and these uh forever
(48:05):
with these old school uh mentality. Uh, you know, people
who don't believe in justice. I mean, I don't understand,
you know, I have a hard time understanding how you
know people are so hard on l Crescent. No one's perfect.
We know that already, you know, but you know, just
seeing a few of the things that he's done in
terms of trying to write the wrongs. You know, you
(48:27):
know Innocence Project. You know, it's one thing, you know,
to get involved, Innocence Project. But there's only so much
we can do there. And Alan, do you have anything
to add I'll say the same thing Chester just said. Vote.
And I'll tell you we did everything. We got recantations,
I got news stories, we found the other witness, I
found everything. Did you know what made a difference Larry
(48:48):
Krausner got elected. It was willing to look at the
evidence in a different way. Politics is what made the difference. Jimmy,
you and Chester are free because of politics and the
old way of looking at things, doing things. The old
way of running a d a's ars prosecutor's office was
not going to ever change any of this. The only
way things are going to change is to is the
(49:11):
is the support and promotion of progressive prosecution. Period. So Chester,
we have something on wrongful conviction called closing argument. So
I'm going to hand this mic off to you, and
I want you to speak from your heart and tell
the wrongful conviction audience how you feel and what you think. Well,
I mean, um, and if I can say anything, I
was just like, it's just about bringing awareness to uh,
(49:35):
wrong for convictions. You know, prior to you know me
enter in prison and and and and seeing it firsthand,
you know, I never would have thought these things are possible.
You know you look on TV and see people being arrested,
and you know they paint this picture of guilt before innocence,
and uh, you know, I just want people to be
aware that before we jump to conclusions and and uh,
(49:56):
you know, just to to listen and to the facts
and and and learn more about these types of things. Um.
You know, in regards to the law itself, these people
have committed crimes, you know, these people that allow these
things to happen. Holding people accountable is to me, it
is more than anything. And uh, these police officers that
(50:16):
still my life, your life. So just just make I say,
bringing awareness to these types of things. And uh, you know,
I thank you guys for having me and Allen here today.
I thank you Jimmy, you know, you know I got
a lot of love for you. You know, whatever I
can do to help you, man, I'm always gonna be
there for you as well, you know. So I just
thank you all for having us. Thank you for listening
(50:42):
to Wrong for Conviction. I'm your guest host, Jimmy Dinnis.
I'd like to thank our executive producers Jason Flum and
Kevin Worters. The senior producer for this episode is Jackie
Paul and our producers are Lila Robinson and Jeff Clyde Borne.
Our edit her is Roxandra Guidi. The music in this
(51:04):
production is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.
Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction,
on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and on Twitter at
Wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good. On
(51:24):
all three platforms, you can find me on Facebook is
Jimmy Dennis on Instagram at Jimmy Dennis Music. I'm also
an R and B sanger songwriter and you can find
all my music on iTunes or wherever you get your music.
Wrong for Conviction is a production of Lava for Good
podcast in association with Signal Company Number one. Next week,
(51:58):
on the guest hosted episodes are Wrong for Conviction, Pulitzer
Prize winning author Gilbert King will interview Robert Dubois about
being sentenced to die by electrocution for a crime he
didn't commit. Gilbert is the host of Lava for Good's
newest documentary podcast, Bone Valley, which follows the story of
Leo Schofield, a man wrongly convicted for the murder of
his wife near Tampa, Florida. Leo is currently incarcerated at
(52:21):
Florida State Prison, the same prison where Robert Dubas was
held for twenty eight long years. In this fascinating interview,
Gilbert will talk to Robert about the shoddy police work
and junk science that leaded Robert on death route. Listen
next Monday in the Wrongful Conviction podcast Feed
Hosts And Creators
Lauren Bright Pacheco
Maggie Freleng
Jason Flom
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