January 9, 2025 • 30 mins
On January 18, 1995, 38-year-old Denise Raymond, a Federal Express executive, was found dead in her Bronx, NY apartment from two gunshot wounds to the head. Less than 24 hours later, 43-year-old Baithe Diop, a driver for New Harlem Car Service, was fatally shot on a nearby street in what police said was an apparent robbery. Police then found two women who told police that they had heard six young men discussing the murder. Eric Glisson was one of these men; the Bronx Six as they came to be known. Eric was ultimately charged and convicted of second degree murder in the death of Baithe Diop and sentenced to 25 year to life in prison.
To learn more, check out Dan Slepian’s podcast Letters from Sing Sing:
https://www.nbcnews.com/letters-from-sing-sing-podcast
Wrongful Conviction is a production of Lava For Good™ Podcasts in association with Signal Co. No1.
We have worked hard to ensure that all facts reported in this show are accurate. The views and opinions expressed by the individuals featured in this show are their own and do not necessarily reflect those of Lava for Good.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
In January nineteen ninety five, two murders occurred in the Bronx.
One was a Federal Express executive named Denise Raymond, the
other a livery cab driver named Bath d'ap. Eventually, an
alleged witness and her teenage translator claimed to have information
that one had seen a group of assault from her window
(00:24):
and that they both overheard a group of young men
talking about robbing a cab and a girl. The police
also believed Denise Raymond's ex boyfriend was involved, as well
as someone who had allegedly called the car service to
set up the cab driver. In total, seven people were
charged with one or both of the murders, including Eric Listen,
(00:46):
who ascends to twenty five to life. This is wrongful Conviction.
You're listening to Wrongful Conviction. You can listen to this
and all the Lava for Good podcast one week early
and ad free by subscribing to Lava for Good Plus
on Apple Podcasts. Welcome back to Wrong for Conviction. This
(01:17):
is the story I've been waiting a long time to tell.
It's almost too much. It's got a gang called Sex
Money Murder, a Bronx drug gang. It's got an ear
witness who somehow or other was lucky enough to be
a witnessed to two different murders that happened about thirty
six hours apart, separate crimes, who herself was kind of
(01:39):
a let's just say, a complicated character. It's got six
wrongfully convicted people, one of whom's here with us today,
and that's just the beginning. So without further ado, I'm
so excited to have with us today the man who
lived through this. Eric listen, thanks for being there, Thank you, Jason,
(02:01):
and with Eric here today is a guy I can
only describe as a hero of the indist movement who's
reporting and investigative journalism has resulted in freeing quite a
number of wrong for convicted men that I'm so happy,
Dan Slepian, that you're here on the show to help
(02:21):
tell the story that you actually played a key role in.
So we'll get to that later.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Brother. You're like a kindred spirit, and for you to
say that about me is kind of silly, to be
honest with you, because you're like the north star of
everybody in this movement and a mentor figure. Because I'm younger.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Than so okay, so Eric, before this insane Ordeal befell you.
What was your life like growing up?
Speaker 3 (02:49):
Well, my family were very close. I didn't have my
father too much in my life. He lived in Colorado
with his new wife and my brother and my sister,
so I was raised by my mother, my grandmother, my grandfather,
and all of my uncles, which was six in total.
My mother was the only daughter, however, actually passed away
(03:09):
and I was left to the care of my grandmother,
who couldn't handle me. Because I was twelve years old,
I thought I knew everything, so I mainly hung out
in the park with my friends. But we were into
gangs causing mischief. We were in causing any problems in
the community. I grew up in Classing Point Gardens, which
(03:29):
is next to Soundview Projects, and so mixing up with
a few of the guys from Soundview, Classing Point as
well as Saquan, we all just became like one close
knit community and there was a lot of support from
everyone because if you're seeing anyone in the street doing
anything wrong before you reach home, someone knew about it
(03:51):
from your family. But mainly I stood to myself. I
was like a really introvert after my mother's death, and
I supported myself with cutting grass in the neighborhood. I
did your front yard for five, your backyard for five,
and your hedges for three.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
Soon Eric was eighteen years old with a daughter on
the way.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
I was going to every doctor's appointment, every sonogram, being
there when she was born, just waiting to be a father,
waiting for this new experience, and just suddenly one day,
one morning, and just all crashed.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
Down on me, and the murder itself. The first crime
was Denise Raymond, and she was a thirty eight year
old woman. We're talking a cold night on January seventeenth
of nineteen ninety five. She was a FedEx executive, which
probably added a little pressure to the police investigation, and
we know how that goes. When they feel pressured, they
(04:47):
cut some corners too often. And she was found the
following morning, January eighteenth, bound, gagged and blindfolded in her
Bronx apartment. That she had been shot twice in the head.
So this was even in the high crime you know
time that this was really a horrible crime. And then
four thirty am on January nineteenth, so this is less
(05:09):
than twenty four hours after miss Raymond had been found
forty three year old bath Theopp. He was a driver
for the new Harlem car service and he was found
fatally shot on a Bronx street and what police said
appeared to be a robbery. So now the pressure ramps
up even more because this seems like almost like a spree, right.
But they were only linked by geography, right, because other
than that, there's nothing to connect them at all.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
Other than the detectives were a team. His cases were
not connected at all. Bath Dyop's body was found. It
was a rookie detective from the forty third Precinct by
the name of Mike Donnelly, who has assigned that case.
It was only his second murder investigation. His mentor was
on the verge of retirement on his last Thomiside case,
a guy named Thomas Iello, a detective and a few
(05:52):
hours before the bath Dopp murder, as you said, is
when they found Denise Raymond's body, and Thomas Iyello, Mike
Donnelly's mentor, was the lead detective on the Denise Raymond
murder case. They weren't connected at all other than the
fact that those two detectives knew each other and were
a team.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
And this team was having trouble producing any promising leads.
They'd been looking at Denise Raymond's ex boyfriend, Charles McKinnon,
but they'd hit a wall until two weeks later, when
Detective Donnelly picked up a teenager named Hanley Gomez on
an unrelated charge.
Speaker 3 (06:23):
When they got a young kid named Hanley Gomez in
the precinct on another charge, they questioned him about the
taxi driver and the FedEx Exectly, he told them that
he knew someone that might have information about it because
she lived directly across the street from where the taxi
murder took place.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Goma said, there's a woman, Miriam Taveres, who's a homeless
prostitute that stays on my couch. So Donnelly goes over
to the house and Goma's sister, Kathy Gmez, a sixteen
year old girl, was asked by the detective to be
a translator because Miriam Tavera is the main witness, only
spoke Spanish and Donnelly only spoke English. Miriam Taveries said
(07:04):
she saw heard what five people, six people did and
said in a place where she couldn't possibly see in
what she said she saw and picks out five young
men from the neighborhood, most of whom don't really even
know each other, saying that they did it Detective Donnelly
by the time he left the apartment that sixteen year
old sister Kathy Gomez also all of a sudden became
(07:26):
a witness, saying she overheard what these guys were saying.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
The Gomez statement said that on January seventeenth, a group
of young men was overheard talking about quote, robbing a
taxi and a girl end quote. The group that she
was talking about was seventeen year old Israel Basquez, eighteen
year old Devin Ayers, nineteen year old Michael Cosme, and
twenty five year old Carlos Perez. In addition, Miriam Tavares
(07:54):
also allegedly overheard them discussing the Denise Raymond murder, and
then she claimed that on January nineteenth, she heard gunshots,
looked out the window and saw the group fleeing back
the ops car along with eighteen year old Derek Clisten.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Meanwhile, we have the crime scene tape, we know where
the cab driver came to rest after the shooting. That
went to the crime scene. She could not have possibly
seen what she said she saw. But there were five
men arrested at first for the cab driver murder and
the Denise Raymer murder. But the cops weren't done because
Detective Donnelly had this theory from the night of the
crime that whoever called the cab that night must be involved.
(08:33):
So he went to the cab dispatcher and she said,
I think it's a woman named r Vett who calls
all the time, and so Donnelly says, if a vet calls,
tell her I want to talk to her. So a
couple weeks later, this woman calls her a cab and
the dispatcher is like, sounds like a vet, And the
dispatcher says to Yvette, the cops want to talk to you.
So Yvette calls the detective and they asked her to
(08:56):
come to the precinct. And this woman was not named Vette.
This woman was named cab Matthy Watkins, who had never
been arrested before and had a daughter. And she comes
to the precinct and they sit her in her room
and they put the dispatcher down the hallway and Donnelly
is standing over her and say call the dispatcher and
order that cab because he wanted to know if that
voice was the same, and the dispatcher's down the hall
(09:17):
in the precinct and she says, yeah, that's the voice.
And then Miriam Taveris, who had never before said a
woman was involved, says, okay, yeah, she was there snapping
her fingers mean to the guys the five night, hurry
up and finish the murder. And so because of that,
and only because of that, she was arrested with all
of these other guys for both murders. Six people eric
(09:39):
had never even met her, No one met her before,
no one knew anything about her. She literally did not
even call the.
Speaker 4 (09:45):
Cab service that night, they later found, but the detective
never even checked that, mind you.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
A seventh person was arrested, Denise Raymond's ex boyfriend, who
had nothing to do with anything.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
The police obtained a statement from Denise Raymond's coworker, Kim
Alley Xander, in which she allegedly wrote an elevator with
Denise Raymond and her ex Charles McKinnon on January seventeenth.
The pair allegedly argued before he followed her out of
the building, and this theory was that McKinnon contacted this
group of young men to whom he had zero ties,
(10:19):
by the way, and set her up. They took him
to trial in nineteen ninety eight, despite surveillance footage that
showed McKinnon was not present at all for this elevator argument.
Fortunately he was acquitted.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
Charles McKinnon was acquitted and he died a few years
later from heart issues. That I spoke to his wife,
think that being wrongfully accused killed him and may.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
He rest in peace. And meanwhile, back in nineteen ninety five,
Eric had just welcomed his daughter into the world, completely
unaware of the murders, let alone that he was a suspect.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
You know, I was focused on bringing my daughter home
from the hospital and being a father that I didn't
speak to anybody in the neighborhood for that period of time.
I was just going to the hospital, being there we
bought the baby home. That I didn't even know nothing
about that crime. But lo and behold, I found out
(11:14):
very quickly with being arrested for that crime.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
Wow, here you are, eighteen years old, being wrongfully accused
of a murderer or two with this other group of people.
Some of them do each other, some of them didn't
it's such a just cluster fuck.
Speaker 3 (11:29):
I didn't really believe it was happening because at first
they told me I was being arrested for robbery or
burglary or something of that nature, and I know I
didn't do that. But then later on during interrogation, they
began to accuse me of murder.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
It is heartbreaking to hear his interrogation with an assistant prosecutor.
He's brought in and he's sitting bent at the waist, trembling, crying,
saying in his sweet voice, I don't know what you're
talking about. I have no idea. I didn't do anything.
I just want to go home and see my daughter.
(12:04):
And they are just at him, at him, and he's like,
I don't know what you're talking about. I don't know
what you're talking about. And he was telling the truth.
Speaker 3 (12:11):
And that's when I saw my life falling apart right
before me. I saw me never going home to my daughter,
who we just brought home from the hospital. I had
five other co defendants who also were innocent and didn't
actually know each other. However, before we went to trial,
one of the cases, which was Denise Raymond, was dismissed
(12:32):
against me. And my other code defended Kathy Watkins.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
The Gomez statement only implicated Israel Vaskaz, Devin Ayers, Michael Cosmi,
and Carlos Perez in the Nise Raymond murder, while Tavares
alone implicated Eric Listen in the bath Dap murder, followed
by Kathy Watkins at a subsequent statement. So Eric and
Kathy were split away from the group and the group
(12:56):
was tried first in May nineteen ninety seven.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
By the time the trial came around, Kathy Gomes tried
to kill herself because she didn't want to testify because
we now know that Detective Donnelly wrote a statement made
her say what she said. She didn't even read English.
She signed the statement without reading it, and she was
a main witness at Denise Raymond's trial, and she tried
to kill herself.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
But that was all unknown to their jury, along with
Miriam Tavares's obstruct advantage point and any existing physical evidence.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
The prosecutor took the bullets and other evidence related to
the case home and said that his car was broken
into and it was stolen, and we weren't able to
use any of that to prove my innocence.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
And neither were the other four who received fifty years each.
Before Eric and Kathy Watkins went to trial in September
nineteen ninety seven.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Miriam Tavares was the main witness, and it was her testimony,
and only her testimony, that's it that convicted Eric and
Kathy Watkins.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
That's it.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
When I went and I looked into Eric's case, I
literally got into the apartment where she said she saw
this from. She no longer lived there, but the people
who live there allowed me to come in, and I
went to the bathroom window and I took video from
where she said she saw it from.
Speaker 4 (14:13):
Literally impossible first of all, to see what she said
she saw. But more astonishing than that, Mike Donnelly, the detective,
never even did that. He never did it.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
He never went to see if she could see what
she said she saw.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
But Eric's attorney did, and he argued to have the
jury see the crime scene as well as Miriam Tavares's
obstruct advantage point for themselves, but.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
The judge denied it, state in that it was unnecessary
after the successful argument of the prosecutor that we put
up pictures and videos depicted in the crime scene, so
why would the jury need to go to here, and
basically they tuned into Miriam Savers.
Speaker 4 (14:52):
So it was Eric and Kathy Watkins that were tried
together for the cab driver murder alone, even though they
had never met. They had never said a word to
each other, that Kathy Watkins never called the cab, that
Eric had no idea what anybody was talking about, and
they were convicted and sentenced to twenty five to life.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
After seeing my co defendants get convicted first and receive
fifty years each, I pretty much knew that I wasn't
going to come out of this and from that day
on I lived a nightmare with every week an hour.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
This episode of Wrongful Conviction is proudly sponsored by Erase PTSD.
Now every day, countless individuals face the invisible wounds of
trauma and PTSD. Your support empowers us to provide life
changing treatments like the Stelli Ganglion Block SGB, which inhibits
nerve impulses and helps to restore hope, reclaim lives, and
(15:53):
save lives after incarceration. Together, we can ensure that those
wrongfully convicted receive the care they need to heal and
reintegrate into society. Join us in this mission to erase
PTSD and uplift our communities. Visit ERASEPTSD now dot org.
That's erase PTSD now dot org for more information and
(16:15):
ways to get involved.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
A lot of people say, how did you do it?
I die on my feet, not on my knees. A
lot of people say, oh, I couldn't do that.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
Yes you can.
Speaker 3 (16:31):
If you are confronted with a situation like that, anyone
is gonna fight. It's just that how much fight you
got in you and how much will and tenacity dig deep,
dig inside yourself, find that strength. Never give up with
anything that you are confronted with your life, because every
(16:53):
problem has an expiration date. And when I'm in those
low points in my life that gets me by, I
don't have they sayers inside of me telling me I
can't do it right. And I practiced that with my
daughters on their room doors. I wrote in big letters
girls can do anything, so that if they ever confronted
(17:14):
with any adversity in life, that they able to dig
deep inside themselves when there's no one else around, when
you cry out for help and no one listens, you
can count on yourself because the answer is in yourself
and that's what gives you the positivity to attract positivity.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
And part of the power of positivity and action brought
Eric in touch with a number of other innocent men,
including several former guests on this very show, Johnny Kincapier
and JJ Velasquez, who's another connection to Dan. Even though
Eric didn't know Dan at the time, Dan and JJ
had been in contact since two thousand and two. But
back at Sing Sing, the three of them were participating
(17:55):
in the RTA program, short for Rehabilitation through the Arts,
as well as taking college courses together.
Speaker 3 (18:01):
We were all studying far our degrees and behavior science.
Johnny was going for his masters. I think at the
time I knew Johnny through the RTA program at first,
and just being around these people and feelingate their energy,
you can tell that they're not there for something they
did that's obvious. They don't have murder written on their face,
(18:24):
they don't have that written in the moral fabric. And
then when you see people going to the law library
a lot, and that's really their mainstay when they have
free time, those are the people you need to really
pay attention to because they're fighting. They're not going to
the yard where it's leisurely easy. They're in the law library.
So for those seventeen years and nine months, you know,
(18:46):
I convinced myself that one day I would get out
of them. And I worked tiresly on my case without
any professional help. Because I was poor. I didn't have
the funds to obtain a high profile attorney that can
give me the best legal advice and work that he could,
and so I wrote to numerous attorneys, different outreach programs.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
We would just write letters to lawyers and projects. In
the Innocence Project. My name is Eric, Listen, I'm innocent,
and it would all go into the void. Meanwhile, he's
learning the language that was used to lock him up.
He's going to the law library fining freedom of information
requests to do whatever he can from inside his cement box.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
Let's give some props to sister Joanna Chan, who I
think knew you from the theater program in Sing Sing right,
and then went and advocated for you to get legal representation.
Speaker 3 (19:32):
As you know, Peter was a corporate attorney. He didn't
know anything about criminal law. And his assistant shaw Man,
who's become like a sister to me. All of the
three way calls that Charmain would do for me, and
the research of looking on Facebook and different social media
platforms for different individuals that has some idea might be involved.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
And Peter Cross was there to guide Eric through what
happened next.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
In early twenty twelve, he finally got a a freedom
of information request and it was the cell phone of Bathtiop,
the cab driver who was killed, had a cell phone
nineteen ninety five. Not a lot of people at cell phones,
and there was all of these phone calls made right
after his death. And Eric, from his prison cell figures
(20:18):
out that the phone numbers are.
Speaker 4 (20:19):
Traced back to a really really bad gang in the
South Bronx called Sex Money Murder. And what he does
is he writes yet another letter to the US Attorney's
office that took down Sex Money Murder. He found out
the prosecutor who took down that bad gang, her name
was Helen Campwell, she didn't even work in the office anymore.
And the secretary who got the mail remembered that there
(20:41):
was an investigator at the US Attorney's Office by the
name of John O'Malley who said, if there's any letters
that come in about murders, put them on my desk
because he knew everything about murders in New York City.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
He was a gang investigator. And he puts the letter
on the desk and John O'Malley starts to read this
letter and he says, oh shit, a cab driver soundview
section of the Bronx nineteen ninety five.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
I knew who did that.
Speaker 4 (21:07):
It was two guys from the gang he took down
called sex money murder. In fact, he arrested them and
they played guilty to this crime in federal court nine
years earlier.
Speaker 3 (21:29):
I was told to go down to the Administration building.
So I questioned on why I was going down there
if the officers wouldn't give me any information. When I
did finally reach that room, John O'Malley, this guy looked
like a gumshoe detective, and I seen that he had
a big picture of me, and I thought at that
time that I was being charge with some other crime now.
(21:50):
But then when he raised the letter and he asked
it I write that letter, you know, a little bit
of relief came over me. He told me, I know
the two guys who did this crime. Ask me did
I have co defendans? And I told him yes, and
he asked me how many and when I explained to
him FI that the co defendants, he was dumbfounded.
Speaker 4 (22:08):
He thought Eric was.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
The only one in there.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
In twenty twelve, O'Malley was still operating under the impression
he had been left with when he inquired with the
NAYPD about this murder. In two thousand and three, after
two members of Sex Money Murder, Gilbert Vega and Joey Rodriguez,
confessed to the shooting.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
When John O'Malley went to the precinct to say, I
got these guys confessing to this crime, the NYPD told them,
we don't have any record of that crime. They didn't say, oh,
we have six people serving time in prison already for
fifteen years, and he's told that the murder didn't exist.
Speaker 4 (22:39):
We don't have a record of that. So these guys,
Gilbert Vega and Joey Rodriguez, plead guilty in federal court
to shooting a gun and the commission of a robbery.
The guys say, we shot the cab driver. We think
he died, and the judge actually says, I hope nobody
got killed. The prosecutor is saying, I'm sorry, you're honored.
The NYPD is saying, we don't have the death here,
(23:01):
we don't have a murder, so the guys plead guilty.
No one knew that six people were in prison for
the same crime until Eric Glisten wrote that letter nine
years later. So now with the seven people that were
charged originally, plus the two who really did it, there
were nine people. Two of them are really did it,
seven didn't.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
It didn't hit me until I contacted Chawmain when we
went out to the yard and she told me that
someone did call Peter and that Peter was excited and crying.
From that point I knew something was afoot in that
maybe I might have hope.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
And one would think that when O'Malley brings this information
and the prosecutor of the US Attorney's Office to the
Bronx DA's office in June twenty twelve, that the prison
gates should have just flown right open, right.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
But what happened The DA's office fought. Eric was sent
to Rikers, humanitarian nightmare when he's totally innocent calling me
from Vikers. There's no court date on the docket, so
I got WNBC. We did a local report in August
of twenty twelve. He was going to get out anyway,
but he didn't get out until October. And after he
(24:11):
got out.
Speaker 4 (24:12):
To make it even worse, they didn't just say we're sorry,
mister Glisson and the five others. What they said was, Okay,
we're going to do a conditional release while we investigate.
You get out on an ankle monitor.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
And I'm thinking to myself, investigate what Miriam Tavares had
died in two thousand and two, and by this time
her translator, Kathy Gomez, had already recanted.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Kathy Gomez did recant, and not only did she recan't
she said that the detective wrote the statement from her.
She couldn't read it because she didn't read English. She
signed it under duress, and she didn't want to testify,
and it says in the court record she tried to
kill herself instead of testifying because the detective was making
her testify.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
And so again, June of twenty twelve, that's the date
that he should have come home, but they strung it
out a little bit longer than there was Jako munder.
But tell us about your co defendants and getting them out,
because they didn't come out at the same time you did.
Speaker 3 (25:07):
Right about five or six months later, they were released.
I really don't want to take the credit for it,
because whatever was coming our way with positive vibes was
coming our way. It came, and everybody was able to
reach back home to their family. And that's what gives
me the best joy in this situation, because it started
(25:27):
out terrible. It was terrible for everyone. I wasn't the
only one that went through it, and today there's still
innocent people who have been released and still going through it.
My life out here has been devoted to fighting against
injustice at every chance I can, and I think we'll
do a less less fighting in the future if more
(25:50):
accountability is attached to police and the district attorneys who
commit these crimes and atrocities against whole entire communities.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
You're absolutely right, Eric, prosecutors have absolute immunity, and it's
hard to think of any other professions that have that
same type of immunity against misconduct, even if it's flagrant,
even if it's deliberate. Let me just say, for the
way you handled yourself and the way you reached back.
I mean, that's why I always say, Eric, people like
Dan and myself were just in awe of people like
you who go through hell for no reason of your
(26:22):
own doing and come out carrying buckets of water for
people you left behind. And you're the perfect example of that.
And that's the type of person I think we all
aspire to be. So, Dan, Eric, this is my favorite
segment of the show, which is called Closing Arguments, and
it's basically me turning off my microphone, thanking both of you,
and then I'm going to leave your microphones on to
(26:44):
share any other thoughts and so as tradition has it, Dan,
you go first and then hand the microphone off to
Eric and he'll take us off into the sunset.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
For me, you know, just like you Jason, probably, this
is not something that I found. This is something that
found me. This is something that chose me, this issue,
and I have no choice. This is what I do
when I have witnessed through proximity a system that is
so pathological and irrational, and I have a platform the
way you do to be able to do something, I
feel like I have no choice but to do it.
(27:15):
This journey for me began more than two decades ago
when I started with this case called the Palladium Case.
The Palladium nightclub murder, and it eventually led me to Eric.
And when I had written my book, I looked up
the word palladium and it means silver, white metal, but
it also means safeguard, and it made me think, like
(27:35):
that was very interesting. What is our true, genuine safeguard
against injustice? And the answer is educating people, because we're
all going to be jurors, and the system doesn't work
the way that everybody thinks it works. And when it
comes to judging our fellow citizens of anything much less
a capital crime, we should be asking far more questions
(27:56):
than are asked. We should be taking it way more
seriously than we do, certainly if we're a jur and
certainly if somebody's life on our hands. So to me,
this as a chapter in our history that one day
we will look back on this era as a very
dark chapter. You know, not in our lifetimes perhaps, but
one day people will look back on this chapter in
(28:17):
our history the way we look at slavery. This is
the next incarnation of the civil rights movement. It is
that apparent of an injustice, It is that brazen that
people's lives are stolen from them, People are kidnapped by
the state without any sort of due process all too often.
And so what we need to do is keep talking
(28:38):
about it, keep talking to each other about it and
others and educating ourselves. And Jason, you keep doing what
you're doing. I'll keep doing what I'm doing. Eric will
keep doing what he's doing, and eventually, you know, we grow.
We're all soldiers in this war together. So the safeguard is.
Speaker 3 (28:51):
US prisons in America is really a profit entity. Every
phone call you make, you have to pay. Every infraction
you do, you have to pay. They deducted from your
and made account. How to health does these prosecutors office
budget mimic the economy of small countries for them to
(29:12):
convict people cause more to feed than people. We have
over two million people in prison. And right now, as
I went back to Sing Sing, I saw that they
don't have any more vocational programs, which is very instrumental
and the biggest tool to help people reactlimate and come
back out and be successful with becoming gainfully employed. When
(29:33):
I was there, I got plumbing, electrician, carpentry, building maintenance,
small engine repair, small appliance repair, computer repair, and college.
But now those programs has been removed from the prisons,
but the prosecutor's budgets got bigger, and that's the biggest
incentives to keep the prisons going, to keep the courts going,
(29:55):
and to keep those doors to the prison open the budgets.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. You can listen
to this and all the Lava for Good podcasts one
week early and ad free by subscribing to Lava for
Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. I want to thank our
production team, Connor Hall and Kathleen Fink, as well as
my fellow executive producers Jeff Kempler, Kevin Wartis, and Jeff Kleiber.
The music in this production was supplied by three time
(30:25):
OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us
across all social media platforms at Lava for Good and
at Wrongful Conviction. You can also follow me on Instagram
at It's Jason Flamm. Wrongful Conviction is a production of
Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number One.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
We have worked hard to ensure that all facts reported
in this show are accurate.
Speaker 4 (30:45):
The views and opinions expressed by the individuals featured in
this show are their own and do not necessarily reflect
those of Lava for Good
In January nineteen ninety five, two murders occurred in the Bronx.
One was a Federal Express executive named Denise Raymond, the
other a livery cab driver named Bath d'ap. Eventually, an
alleged witness and her teenage translator claimed to have information
that one had seen a group of assault from her window
(00:24):
and that they both overheard a group of young men
talking about robbing a cab and a girl. The police
also believed Denise Raymond's ex boyfriend was involved, as well
as someone who had allegedly called the car service to
set up the cab driver. In total, seven people were
charged with one or both of the murders, including Eric Listen,
(00:46):
who ascends to twenty five to life. This is wrongful Conviction.
You're listening to Wrongful Conviction. You can listen to this
and all the Lava for Good podcast one week early
and ad free by subscribing to Lava for Good Plus
on Apple Podcasts. Welcome back to Wrong for Conviction. This
(01:17):
is the story I've been waiting a long time to tell.
It's almost too much. It's got a gang called Sex
Money Murder, a Bronx drug gang. It's got an ear
witness who somehow or other was lucky enough to be
a witnessed to two different murders that happened about thirty
six hours apart, separate crimes, who herself was kind of
(01:39):
a let's just say, a complicated character. It's got six
wrongfully convicted people, one of whom's here with us today,
and that's just the beginning. So without further ado, I'm
so excited to have with us today the man who
lived through this. Eric listen, thanks for being there, Thank you, Jason,
(02:01):
and with Eric here today is a guy I can
only describe as a hero of the indist movement who's
reporting and investigative journalism has resulted in freeing quite a
number of wrong for convicted men that I'm so happy,
Dan Slepian, that you're here on the show to help
(02:21):
tell the story that you actually played a key role in.
So we'll get to that later.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Brother. You're like a kindred spirit, and for you to
say that about me is kind of silly, to be
honest with you, because you're like the north star of
everybody in this movement and a mentor figure. Because I'm younger.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Than so okay, so Eric, before this insane Ordeal befell you.
What was your life like growing up?
Speaker 3 (02:49):
Well, my family were very close. I didn't have my
father too much in my life. He lived in Colorado
with his new wife and my brother and my sister,
so I was raised by my mother, my grandmother, my grandfather,
and all of my uncles, which was six in total.
My mother was the only daughter, however, actually passed away
(03:09):
and I was left to the care of my grandmother,
who couldn't handle me. Because I was twelve years old,
I thought I knew everything, so I mainly hung out
in the park with my friends. But we were into
gangs causing mischief. We were in causing any problems in
the community. I grew up in Classing Point Gardens, which
(03:29):
is next to Soundview Projects, and so mixing up with
a few of the guys from Soundview, Classing Point as
well as Saquan, we all just became like one close
knit community and there was a lot of support from
everyone because if you're seeing anyone in the street doing
anything wrong before you reach home, someone knew about it
(03:51):
from your family. But mainly I stood to myself. I
was like a really introvert after my mother's death, and
I supported myself with cutting grass in the neighborhood. I
did your front yard for five, your backyard for five,
and your hedges for three.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
Soon Eric was eighteen years old with a daughter on
the way.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
I was going to every doctor's appointment, every sonogram, being
there when she was born, just waiting to be a father,
waiting for this new experience, and just suddenly one day,
one morning, and just all crashed.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
Down on me, and the murder itself. The first crime
was Denise Raymond, and she was a thirty eight year
old woman. We're talking a cold night on January seventeenth
of nineteen ninety five. She was a FedEx executive, which
probably added a little pressure to the police investigation, and
we know how that goes. When they feel pressured, they
(04:47):
cut some corners too often. And she was found the
following morning, January eighteenth, bound, gagged and blindfolded in her
Bronx apartment. That she had been shot twice in the head.
So this was even in the high crime you know
time that this was really a horrible crime. And then
four thirty am on January nineteenth, so this is less
(05:09):
than twenty four hours after miss Raymond had been found
forty three year old bath Theopp. He was a driver
for the new Harlem car service and he was found
fatally shot on a Bronx street and what police said
appeared to be a robbery. So now the pressure ramps
up even more because this seems like almost like a spree, right.
But they were only linked by geography, right, because other
than that, there's nothing to connect them at all.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
Other than the detectives were a team. His cases were
not connected at all. Bath Dyop's body was found. It
was a rookie detective from the forty third Precinct by
the name of Mike Donnelly, who has assigned that case.
It was only his second murder investigation. His mentor was
on the verge of retirement on his last Thomiside case,
a guy named Thomas Iello, a detective and a few
(05:52):
hours before the bath Dopp murder, as you said, is
when they found Denise Raymond's body, and Thomas Iyello, Mike
Donnelly's mentor, was the lead detective on the Denise Raymond
murder case. They weren't connected at all other than the
fact that those two detectives knew each other and were
a team.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
And this team was having trouble producing any promising leads.
They'd been looking at Denise Raymond's ex boyfriend, Charles McKinnon,
but they'd hit a wall until two weeks later, when
Detective Donnelly picked up a teenager named Hanley Gomez on
an unrelated charge.
Speaker 3 (06:23):
When they got a young kid named Hanley Gomez in
the precinct on another charge, they questioned him about the
taxi driver and the FedEx Exectly, he told them that
he knew someone that might have information about it because
she lived directly across the street from where the taxi
murder took place.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Goma said, there's a woman, Miriam Taveres, who's a homeless
prostitute that stays on my couch. So Donnelly goes over
to the house and Goma's sister, Kathy Gmez, a sixteen
year old girl, was asked by the detective to be
a translator because Miriam Tavera is the main witness, only
spoke Spanish and Donnelly only spoke English. Miriam Taveries said
(07:04):
she saw heard what five people, six people did and
said in a place where she couldn't possibly see in
what she said she saw and picks out five young
men from the neighborhood, most of whom don't really even
know each other, saying that they did it Detective Donnelly
by the time he left the apartment that sixteen year
old sister Kathy Gomez also all of a sudden became
(07:26):
a witness, saying she overheard what these guys were saying.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
The Gomez statement said that on January seventeenth, a group
of young men was overheard talking about quote, robbing a
taxi and a girl end quote. The group that she
was talking about was seventeen year old Israel Basquez, eighteen
year old Devin Ayers, nineteen year old Michael Cosme, and
twenty five year old Carlos Perez. In addition, Miriam Tavares
(07:54):
also allegedly overheard them discussing the Denise Raymond murder, and
then she claimed that on January nineteenth, she heard gunshots,
looked out the window and saw the group fleeing back
the ops car along with eighteen year old Derek Clisten.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Meanwhile, we have the crime scene tape, we know where
the cab driver came to rest after the shooting. That
went to the crime scene. She could not have possibly
seen what she said she saw. But there were five
men arrested at first for the cab driver murder and
the Denise Raymer murder. But the cops weren't done because
Detective Donnelly had this theory from the night of the
crime that whoever called the cab that night must be involved.
(08:33):
So he went to the cab dispatcher and she said,
I think it's a woman named r Vett who calls
all the time, and so Donnelly says, if a vet calls,
tell her I want to talk to her. So a
couple weeks later, this woman calls her a cab and
the dispatcher is like, sounds like a vet, And the
dispatcher says to Yvette, the cops want to talk to you.
So Yvette calls the detective and they asked her to
(08:56):
come to the precinct. And this woman was not named Vette.
This woman was named cab Matthy Watkins, who had never
been arrested before and had a daughter. And she comes
to the precinct and they sit her in her room
and they put the dispatcher down the hallway and Donnelly
is standing over her and say call the dispatcher and
order that cab because he wanted to know if that
voice was the same, and the dispatcher's down the hall
(09:17):
in the precinct and she says, yeah, that's the voice.
And then Miriam Taveris, who had never before said a
woman was involved, says, okay, yeah, she was there snapping
her fingers mean to the guys the five night, hurry
up and finish the murder. And so because of that,
and only because of that, she was arrested with all
of these other guys for both murders. Six people eric
(09:39):
had never even met her, No one met her before,
no one knew anything about her. She literally did not
even call the.
Speaker 4 (09:45):
Cab service that night, they later found, but the detective
never even checked that, mind you.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
A seventh person was arrested, Denise Raymond's ex boyfriend, who
had nothing to do with anything.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
The police obtained a statement from Denise Raymond's coworker, Kim
Alley Xander, in which she allegedly wrote an elevator with
Denise Raymond and her ex Charles McKinnon on January seventeenth.
The pair allegedly argued before he followed her out of
the building, and this theory was that McKinnon contacted this
group of young men to whom he had zero ties,
(10:19):
by the way, and set her up. They took him
to trial in nineteen ninety eight, despite surveillance footage that
showed McKinnon was not present at all for this elevator argument.
Fortunately he was acquitted.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
Charles McKinnon was acquitted and he died a few years
later from heart issues. That I spoke to his wife,
think that being wrongfully accused killed him and may.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
He rest in peace. And meanwhile, back in nineteen ninety five,
Eric had just welcomed his daughter into the world, completely
unaware of the murders, let alone that he was a suspect.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
You know, I was focused on bringing my daughter home
from the hospital and being a father that I didn't
speak to anybody in the neighborhood for that period of time.
I was just going to the hospital, being there we
bought the baby home. That I didn't even know nothing
about that crime. But lo and behold, I found out
(11:14):
very quickly with being arrested for that crime.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
Wow, here you are, eighteen years old, being wrongfully accused
of a murderer or two with this other group of people.
Some of them do each other, some of them didn't
it's such a just cluster fuck.
Speaker 3 (11:29):
I didn't really believe it was happening because at first
they told me I was being arrested for robbery or
burglary or something of that nature, and I know I
didn't do that. But then later on during interrogation, they
began to accuse me of murder.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
It is heartbreaking to hear his interrogation with an assistant prosecutor.
He's brought in and he's sitting bent at the waist, trembling, crying,
saying in his sweet voice, I don't know what you're
talking about. I have no idea. I didn't do anything.
I just want to go home and see my daughter.
(12:04):
And they are just at him, at him, and he's like,
I don't know what you're talking about. I don't know
what you're talking about. And he was telling the truth.
Speaker 3 (12:11):
And that's when I saw my life falling apart right
before me. I saw me never going home to my daughter,
who we just brought home from the hospital. I had
five other co defendants who also were innocent and didn't
actually know each other. However, before we went to trial,
one of the cases, which was Denise Raymond, was dismissed
(12:32):
against me. And my other code defended Kathy Watkins.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
The Gomez statement only implicated Israel Vaskaz, Devin Ayers, Michael Cosmi,
and Carlos Perez in the Nise Raymond murder, while Tavares
alone implicated Eric Listen in the bath Dap murder, followed
by Kathy Watkins at a subsequent statement. So Eric and
Kathy were split away from the group and the group
(12:56):
was tried first in May nineteen ninety seven.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
By the time the trial came around, Kathy Gomes tried
to kill herself because she didn't want to testify because
we now know that Detective Donnelly wrote a statement made
her say what she said. She didn't even read English.
She signed the statement without reading it, and she was
a main witness at Denise Raymond's trial, and she tried
to kill herself.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
But that was all unknown to their jury, along with
Miriam Tavares's obstruct advantage point and any existing physical evidence.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
The prosecutor took the bullets and other evidence related to
the case home and said that his car was broken
into and it was stolen, and we weren't able to
use any of that to prove my innocence.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
And neither were the other four who received fifty years each.
Before Eric and Kathy Watkins went to trial in September
nineteen ninety seven.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Miriam Tavares was the main witness, and it was her testimony,
and only her testimony, that's it that convicted Eric and
Kathy Watkins.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
That's it.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
When I went and I looked into Eric's case, I
literally got into the apartment where she said she saw
this from. She no longer lived there, but the people
who live there allowed me to come in, and I
went to the bathroom window and I took video from
where she said she saw it from.
Speaker 4 (14:13):
Literally impossible first of all, to see what she said
she saw. But more astonishing than that, Mike Donnelly, the detective,
never even did that. He never did it.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
He never went to see if she could see what
she said she saw.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
But Eric's attorney did, and he argued to have the
jury see the crime scene as well as Miriam Tavares's
obstruct advantage point for themselves, but.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
The judge denied it, state in that it was unnecessary
after the successful argument of the prosecutor that we put
up pictures and videos depicted in the crime scene, so
why would the jury need to go to here, and
basically they tuned into Miriam Savers.
Speaker 4 (14:52):
So it was Eric and Kathy Watkins that were tried
together for the cab driver murder alone, even though they
had never met. They had never said a word to
each other, that Kathy Watkins never called the cab, that
Eric had no idea what anybody was talking about, and
they were convicted and sentenced to twenty five to life.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
After seeing my co defendants get convicted first and receive
fifty years each, I pretty much knew that I wasn't
going to come out of this and from that day
on I lived a nightmare with every week an hour.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
This episode of Wrongful Conviction is proudly sponsored by Erase PTSD.
Now every day, countless individuals face the invisible wounds of
trauma and PTSD. Your support empowers us to provide life
changing treatments like the Stelli Ganglion Block SGB, which inhibits
nerve impulses and helps to restore hope, reclaim lives, and
(15:53):
save lives after incarceration. Together, we can ensure that those
wrongfully convicted receive the care they need to heal and
reintegrate into society. Join us in this mission to erase
PTSD and uplift our communities. Visit ERASEPTSD now dot org.
That's erase PTSD now dot org for more information and
(16:15):
ways to get involved.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
A lot of people say, how did you do it?
I die on my feet, not on my knees. A
lot of people say, oh, I couldn't do that.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
Yes you can.
Speaker 3 (16:31):
If you are confronted with a situation like that, anyone
is gonna fight. It's just that how much fight you
got in you and how much will and tenacity dig deep,
dig inside yourself, find that strength. Never give up with
anything that you are confronted with your life, because every
(16:53):
problem has an expiration date. And when I'm in those
low points in my life that gets me by, I
don't have they sayers inside of me telling me I
can't do it right. And I practiced that with my
daughters on their room doors. I wrote in big letters
girls can do anything, so that if they ever confronted
(17:14):
with any adversity in life, that they able to dig
deep inside themselves when there's no one else around, when
you cry out for help and no one listens, you
can count on yourself because the answer is in yourself
and that's what gives you the positivity to attract positivity.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
And part of the power of positivity and action brought
Eric in touch with a number of other innocent men,
including several former guests on this very show, Johnny Kincapier
and JJ Velasquez, who's another connection to Dan. Even though
Eric didn't know Dan at the time, Dan and JJ
had been in contact since two thousand and two. But
back at Sing Sing, the three of them were participating
(17:55):
in the RTA program, short for Rehabilitation through the Arts,
as well as taking college courses together.
Speaker 3 (18:01):
We were all studying far our degrees and behavior science.
Johnny was going for his masters. I think at the
time I knew Johnny through the RTA program at first,
and just being around these people and feelingate their energy,
you can tell that they're not there for something they
did that's obvious. They don't have murder written on their face,
(18:24):
they don't have that written in the moral fabric. And
then when you see people going to the law library
a lot, and that's really their mainstay when they have
free time, those are the people you need to really
pay attention to because they're fighting. They're not going to
the yard where it's leisurely easy. They're in the law library.
So for those seventeen years and nine months, you know,
(18:46):
I convinced myself that one day I would get out
of them. And I worked tiresly on my case without
any professional help. Because I was poor. I didn't have
the funds to obtain a high profile attorney that can
give me the best legal advice and work that he could,
and so I wrote to numerous attorneys, different outreach programs.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
We would just write letters to lawyers and projects. In
the Innocence Project. My name is Eric, Listen, I'm innocent,
and it would all go into the void. Meanwhile, he's
learning the language that was used to lock him up.
He's going to the law library fining freedom of information
requests to do whatever he can from inside his cement box.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
Let's give some props to sister Joanna Chan, who I
think knew you from the theater program in Sing Sing right,
and then went and advocated for you to get legal representation.
Speaker 3 (19:32):
As you know, Peter was a corporate attorney. He didn't
know anything about criminal law. And his assistant shaw Man,
who's become like a sister to me. All of the
three way calls that Charmain would do for me, and
the research of looking on Facebook and different social media
platforms for different individuals that has some idea might be involved.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
And Peter Cross was there to guide Eric through what
happened next.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
In early twenty twelve, he finally got a a freedom
of information request and it was the cell phone of Bathtiop,
the cab driver who was killed, had a cell phone
nineteen ninety five. Not a lot of people at cell phones,
and there was all of these phone calls made right
after his death. And Eric, from his prison cell figures
(20:18):
out that the phone numbers are.
Speaker 4 (20:19):
Traced back to a really really bad gang in the
South Bronx called Sex Money Murder. And what he does
is he writes yet another letter to the US Attorney's
office that took down Sex Money Murder. He found out
the prosecutor who took down that bad gang, her name
was Helen Campwell, she didn't even work in the office anymore.
And the secretary who got the mail remembered that there
(20:41):
was an investigator at the US Attorney's Office by the
name of John O'Malley who said, if there's any letters
that come in about murders, put them on my desk
because he knew everything about murders in New York City.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
He was a gang investigator. And he puts the letter
on the desk and John O'Malley starts to read this
letter and he says, oh shit, a cab driver soundview
section of the Bronx nineteen ninety five.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
I knew who did that.
Speaker 4 (21:07):
It was two guys from the gang he took down
called sex money murder. In fact, he arrested them and
they played guilty to this crime in federal court nine
years earlier.
Speaker 3 (21:29):
I was told to go down to the Administration building.
So I questioned on why I was going down there
if the officers wouldn't give me any information. When I
did finally reach that room, John O'Malley, this guy looked
like a gumshoe detective, and I seen that he had
a big picture of me, and I thought at that
time that I was being charge with some other crime now.
(21:50):
But then when he raised the letter and he asked
it I write that letter, you know, a little bit
of relief came over me. He told me, I know
the two guys who did this crime. Ask me did
I have co defendans? And I told him yes, and
he asked me how many and when I explained to
him FI that the co defendants, he was dumbfounded.
Speaker 4 (22:08):
He thought Eric was.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
The only one in there.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
In twenty twelve, O'Malley was still operating under the impression
he had been left with when he inquired with the
NAYPD about this murder. In two thousand and three, after
two members of Sex Money Murder, Gilbert Vega and Joey Rodriguez,
confessed to the shooting.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
When John O'Malley went to the precinct to say, I
got these guys confessing to this crime, the NYPD told them,
we don't have any record of that crime. They didn't say, oh,
we have six people serving time in prison already for
fifteen years, and he's told that the murder didn't exist.
Speaker 4 (22:39):
We don't have a record of that. So these guys,
Gilbert Vega and Joey Rodriguez, plead guilty in federal court
to shooting a gun and the commission of a robbery.
The guys say, we shot the cab driver. We think
he died, and the judge actually says, I hope nobody
got killed. The prosecutor is saying, I'm sorry, you're honored.
The NYPD is saying, we don't have the death here,
(23:01):
we don't have a murder, so the guys plead guilty.
No one knew that six people were in prison for
the same crime until Eric Glisten wrote that letter nine
years later. So now with the seven people that were
charged originally, plus the two who really did it, there
were nine people. Two of them are really did it,
seven didn't.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
It didn't hit me until I contacted Chawmain when we
went out to the yard and she told me that
someone did call Peter and that Peter was excited and crying.
From that point I knew something was afoot in that
maybe I might have hope.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
And one would think that when O'Malley brings this information
and the prosecutor of the US Attorney's Office to the
Bronx DA's office in June twenty twelve, that the prison
gates should have just flown right open, right.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
But what happened The DA's office fought. Eric was sent
to Rikers, humanitarian nightmare when he's totally innocent calling me
from Vikers. There's no court date on the docket, so
I got WNBC. We did a local report in August
of twenty twelve. He was going to get out anyway,
but he didn't get out until October. And after he
(24:11):
got out.
Speaker 4 (24:12):
To make it even worse, they didn't just say we're sorry,
mister Glisson and the five others. What they said was, Okay,
we're going to do a conditional release while we investigate.
You get out on an ankle monitor.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
And I'm thinking to myself, investigate what Miriam Tavares had
died in two thousand and two, and by this time
her translator, Kathy Gomez, had already recanted.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Kathy Gomez did recant, and not only did she recan't
she said that the detective wrote the statement from her.
She couldn't read it because she didn't read English. She
signed it under duress, and she didn't want to testify,
and it says in the court record she tried to
kill herself instead of testifying because the detective was making
her testify.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
And so again, June of twenty twelve, that's the date
that he should have come home, but they strung it
out a little bit longer than there was Jako munder.
But tell us about your co defendants and getting them out,
because they didn't come out at the same time you did.
Speaker 3 (25:07):
Right about five or six months later, they were released.
I really don't want to take the credit for it,
because whatever was coming our way with positive vibes was
coming our way. It came, and everybody was able to
reach back home to their family. And that's what gives
me the best joy in this situation, because it started
(25:27):
out terrible. It was terrible for everyone. I wasn't the
only one that went through it, and today there's still
innocent people who have been released and still going through it.
My life out here has been devoted to fighting against
injustice at every chance I can, and I think we'll
do a less less fighting in the future if more
(25:50):
accountability is attached to police and the district attorneys who
commit these crimes and atrocities against whole entire communities.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
You're absolutely right, Eric, prosecutors have absolute immunity, and it's
hard to think of any other professions that have that
same type of immunity against misconduct, even if it's flagrant,
even if it's deliberate. Let me just say, for the
way you handled yourself and the way you reached back.
I mean, that's why I always say, Eric, people like
Dan and myself were just in awe of people like
you who go through hell for no reason of your
(26:22):
own doing and come out carrying buckets of water for
people you left behind. And you're the perfect example of that.
And that's the type of person I think we all
aspire to be. So, Dan, Eric, this is my favorite
segment of the show, which is called Closing Arguments, and
it's basically me turning off my microphone, thanking both of you,
and then I'm going to leave your microphones on to
(26:44):
share any other thoughts and so as tradition has it, Dan,
you go first and then hand the microphone off to
Eric and he'll take us off into the sunset.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
For me, you know, just like you Jason, probably, this
is not something that I found. This is something that
found me. This is something that chose me, this issue,
and I have no choice. This is what I do
when I have witnessed through proximity a system that is
so pathological and irrational, and I have a platform the
way you do to be able to do something, I
feel like I have no choice but to do it.
(27:15):
This journey for me began more than two decades ago
when I started with this case called the Palladium Case.
The Palladium nightclub murder, and it eventually led me to Eric.
And when I had written my book, I looked up
the word palladium and it means silver, white metal, but
it also means safeguard, and it made me think, like
(27:35):
that was very interesting. What is our true, genuine safeguard
against injustice? And the answer is educating people, because we're
all going to be jurors, and the system doesn't work
the way that everybody thinks it works. And when it
comes to judging our fellow citizens of anything much less
a capital crime, we should be asking far more questions
(27:56):
than are asked. We should be taking it way more
seriously than we do, certainly if we're a jur and
certainly if somebody's life on our hands. So to me,
this as a chapter in our history that one day
we will look back on this era as a very
dark chapter. You know, not in our lifetimes perhaps, but
one day people will look back on this chapter in
(28:17):
our history the way we look at slavery. This is
the next incarnation of the civil rights movement. It is
that apparent of an injustice, It is that brazen that
people's lives are stolen from them, People are kidnapped by
the state without any sort of due process all too often.
And so what we need to do is keep talking
(28:38):
about it, keep talking to each other about it and
others and educating ourselves. And Jason, you keep doing what
you're doing. I'll keep doing what I'm doing. Eric will
keep doing what he's doing, and eventually, you know, we grow.
We're all soldiers in this war together. So the safeguard is.
Speaker 3 (28:51):
US prisons in America is really a profit entity. Every
phone call you make, you have to pay. Every infraction
you do, you have to pay. They deducted from your
and made account. How to health does these prosecutors office
budget mimic the economy of small countries for them to
(29:12):
convict people cause more to feed than people. We have
over two million people in prison. And right now, as
I went back to Sing Sing, I saw that they
don't have any more vocational programs, which is very instrumental
and the biggest tool to help people reactlimate and come
back out and be successful with becoming gainfully employed. When
(29:33):
I was there, I got plumbing, electrician, carpentry, building maintenance,
small engine repair, small appliance repair, computer repair, and college.
But now those programs has been removed from the prisons,
but the prosecutor's budgets got bigger, and that's the biggest
incentives to keep the prisons going, to keep the courts going,
(29:55):
and to keep those doors to the prison open the budgets.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. You can listen
to this and all the Lava for Good podcasts one
week early and ad free by subscribing to Lava for
Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. I want to thank our
production team, Connor Hall and Kathleen Fink, as well as
my fellow executive producers Jeff Kempler, Kevin Wartis, and Jeff Kleiber.
The music in this production was supplied by three time
(30:25):
OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us
across all social media platforms at Lava for Good and
at Wrongful Conviction. You can also follow me on Instagram
at It's Jason Flamm. Wrongful Conviction is a production of
Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number One.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
We have worked hard to ensure that all facts reported
in this show are accurate.
Speaker 4 (30:45):
The views and opinions expressed by the individuals featured in
this show are their own and do not necessarily reflect
those of Lava for Good
Hosts And Creators
Lauren Bright Pacheco
Maggie Freleng
Jason Flom
Popular Podcasts
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy And Charlamagne Tha God!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Decisions, Decisions
Welcome to "Decisions, Decisions," the podcast where boundaries are pushed, and conversations get candid! Join your favorite hosts, Mandii B and WeezyWTF, as they dive deep into the world of non-traditional relationships and explore the often-taboo topics surrounding dating, sex, and love. Every Monday, Mandii and Weezy invite you to unlearn the outdated narratives dictated by traditional patriarchal norms. With a blend of humor, vulnerability, and authenticity, they share their personal journeys navigating their 30s, tackling the complexities of modern relationships, and engaging in thought-provoking discussions that challenge societal expectations. From groundbreaking interviews with diverse guests to relatable stories that resonate with your experiences, "Decisions, Decisions" is your go-to source for open dialogue about what it truly means to love and connect in today's world. Get ready to reshape your understanding of relationships and embrace the freedom of authentic connections—tune in and join the conversation!