November 17, 2020 • 24 mins
Between rising COVID-19 numbers and the 2020 election, some of the most urgent issues in our country are unfolding on the ground in Michigan. On the heels of announcing new precautions to keep people safe, Governor Gretchen Whitmer joins Hillary to discuss what leadership looks like, how our country can heal from the last four years, and of course, Thanksgiving Day plans.
Gretchen Whitmer is the 48th governor of Michigan since January 2019. Before taking office, she served as the Minority Leader in the Michigan State Senate from 2006 to 2015.
Read a full transcript here.
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
You and Me Both is a production of I Heart Radio.
I'm Hillary Clinton and this is You and Me Both,
where I get to talk to people whose perspective I
really want to hear from Right now today, that person
is Gretchen Whitmer, the governor of Michigan. Gretchen Whitmer is
(00:21):
someone whose career I have followed with great interest in admiration.
She's a lifelong Michigander. She served in the Michigan State
House was the state Senate minority leader for almost a decade.
She is the second woman to serve as governor of
Michigan and one of just nine women governors in the US.
(00:41):
Just last night, on the heels of another record breaking
week for coronavirus cases in Michigan, Governor Whitmer announced new
restrictions to contain the virus, including stopping in person classes
at high schools and colleges. As she rightly pointed out,
the situation has never been dire. We are at the
(01:01):
precipice and we need to take some action. This is
not the first time she's made headlines for her leadership
and taking strong, effective measures during this pandemic. People all
over the world followed the story of the white supremacists
and militia groups that plotted to kidnap and kill her
(01:23):
just last month. I think it's safe to say that
Michigan and Governor Whitmer are at the epicenter of some
of the biggest issues affecting our country right now. I'm
so glad she could join us in the midst of
all of her other responsibilities for this very timely conversation.
Hello Gretchen, Hi there, How are you, Madam Secretary? Oh
(01:47):
my gosh. All the better for seeing you and for
you making time to talk with me today. Are you
kidding me? You're one of my heroes. I'm so glad
to be with you. Well, I I really was so
looking forward to talking with you. But you should also
know that on my podcast, we ask listeners to recommend
(02:07):
people that they would like to hear me talk with,
and your name was by far at the top of
the list. So it's not only a great personal pleasure
and really honor to talk to you, but it's something
that our listeners have been holding out for, and I
am really looking to give you a chance to talk
(02:30):
about some of what you've gone through and have done,
because you know, speaking as someone who has been in
the political firestorm and been in leadership positions and studied
others who have been leaders. I'm incredibly impressed at your thoughtfulness,
your courage, your commitment to leading and serving the people
(02:54):
of Michigan. You really are a servant leader, governor, and
that is about the highest company and I can come
up with. As we're talking, it's Monday, November sixteenth. Last
night you held a live briefing and announced that Michigan
was again having to put in place new restrictions because
(03:15):
of the massive surge in COVID cases. What are you
seeing in the data and the science that led you
to feel compelled to take this step. Well, one of
the things that I think as a nation we're really
struggling with is the vacuum of leadership in Washington, d c.
And so it's really fallen to the governors to come
(03:37):
up with strategies as individual states. And in the early
days that meant we were competing with one another to
get nine masks for our nurses and our doctors. We
were overwhelmed. We're getting inconsistent, inaccurate information from the White House,
where we had to correct it. We had to take
(03:58):
pains to come up with our own strate of Gee's
and in the midst of all that, I will say,
I'm grateful that I've got relationships with my fellow governors,
because there are many people who understand all the different
pressures that we are confronting as we make these these
hard decisions. You know, we were hit really hard early
on in Michigan. Detroit was heating up like New Orleans,
(04:20):
New York City, Chicago, and being so early on it
was before we knew that there was going to be
no national stockpile to help save the day or a
national strategy, and so we were on our own. We
took aggressive action. I listened to epidemiologists and public health
experts from Michigan, but also nationally recognized experts, and we've
(04:44):
really crushed oar we say, thousands of lives. We mitigated
the economic pain that people were, you know, confronting, and
that was being imposed on our businesses. But now here
we are in the fall, there still isn't a national strategy.
By the way, nine months later, and our COVID cases
are climbing exponentially. Part of that is things like other
(05:08):
states not taken this seriously, like South Dakota, where they
had their big Sturgis motorcycle rally that has just brought
COVID into all sorts of Midwest states. Part of it
is rallies in swing states like Michigan, where the Trump
campaign continued to come and not wear masks and packed people.
And part of it is the fall. You grew up
(05:29):
in the Midwest. Our temperatures are plummeting and we're all
going inside. All of these things converging means we've got
COVID spreading like wildfire all across the Midwest, and that's
why we have to take action. Is especially important because
we're in the midst of hopefully transition that ultimately will
become a real transition. But there still isn't that leadership
(05:51):
in Washington, d C. Your initial stay at home order
back in March led to a political standoff with Republican
legislators and your state Supreme Court. And on top of that,
there were white supremacists and militia groups that marched on
your capital, threatened you and others at that time, and
(06:14):
were cheered on by the President. I can't imagine what
it felt like that first time you saw these white
supremacists and militia members converging on your capital. How did
how did you respond to that? Governor? Yeah, so I
was over in the Romney building. So that's named for
(06:35):
Mitt Romney's father, right, who was governor of Michigan. Exactly,
a Republican of you know, distinction and a kind which
doesn't seem to exist much anymore. It's true. I I
always tell people I'm from a mixed household. My dad
was a Republican, but he was a Romney Miliican Republican,
which means he's a Democrat now. But anyway, Um, I
(06:57):
was there in the office building and I remember looking
out and it was surprising because there were Confederate flags,
which that's not the usual thing at the capital in Michigan.
We're a Union state, right, I mean, we're proud of
the role that we played in the Civil War. We
had Nazi symbolism. There were dolls with dark hair hanging
(07:20):
from nooses that were depicting me hanging you in effigy,
right exactly. That's happened to me, by the way, So
I can I can relate sadly to what you went through.
I know you can, I mean, And it culminated right
in just a few weeks ago, people channing to lock
her up about me. So I know, I know you
know this better than anybody, but it was really stunning
(07:45):
to see. We were in the midst of the early
days of this global pandemic. It was ravaging our state.
People were dying, our hospitals were filled, we were running
out of ppe, and these groups were coming to other
and it was like a Trump rally, it really was.
There's literally a Trump parade flow that was there, and
(08:06):
it was just really surprising because this virus is doesn't
care what your politics are, it doesn't care who you
voted for, where you live. Is a threat to all
of us. And so when we saw that, and then
people showing up with their automatic rifles in the capital,
and they've been many times out on our front lawn
at the residents where my teenagers, I had to explain
(08:29):
why I'm getting death threats and what's happening. But every
single time the President has mentioned me, has tweeted about me,
we see more vitriol, more death threats. It's contributing to
this really dangerous moment that culminated in kidnapping and murder plot.
(08:51):
And just even last night when I made the statement
about we have to tighten some things up to keep
people safe. Scott Atlas tweeted at michigander should rise up.
I mean it's still continuing even after this election. Well,
Scott Atlas, for our listeners who don't know, is the
neurologist from California who is one of the very few doctors,
(09:14):
let alone, he's not an epidemiologist or an infectious disease
specialist who promotes this idea of herd immunity. Let you know,
literally millions die and Trump has uh you know, listened
to him and moved him literally into the White House
where he has issued absolutely false medical assessments, and as
(09:36):
you point out, last night, after you made your announcement,
urged people in Michigan to rise up protests, protect freedom,
all of these slogans that we've come to hear. Ironically,
last night at my house there was a big crowd
of Trump supporters yelling and screaming, using bullhorns to you know,
(09:58):
insult me in all kinds of exist misogynistic ways. Because
there's no getting away from the fact that of all
the governors that took very quick and restrictive action, you
were the one that Trump went after you were the
one that he called that lady and tried to diminish
and demean. And as you just said, there were people who,
(10:22):
let's be very blunt here, have been influenced by Trump
and his form of destructive and dangerous leadership, who actually
hatched a plot to kidnap and kill you. Now many
of us followed the story of this plot in the news,
But how did you learn about it. What was the
experience you had when you were told about this plot
(10:46):
and what happened from your perspective, I think I infuriated
Donald Trump early on when I acknowledged that there was
no national strategy to combat COVID nineteen. I think I
said that back in March, right, speaking truth to power,
And here we are nine months later, and they'd even
give it up on having a strategy. They don't even
try anymore, right, I mean, they don't even like to
(11:08):
talk about COVID nineteen, much less work together to keep
people safe. And so from that day forward, the online vitriol,
the threats had started in earnest, but as this plot
got more pronounced, as it had become, they've taken steps
to actually see it out. The State Police briefed me
(11:29):
on what was happening, maybe a few weeks before the
world found out about it, and I had the opportunity
to sit down with my family and talk a little
bit about it, and to have some pretty hard conversations
with my teenage daughters because I didn't want them to
come across it or to see it on social media
and to be worried. I wanted them to know, we
know this is happening, We're safe, We're okay. But I'll
(11:51):
be honest with you, I don't know if I've processed
it yet. I haven't read all of the affidavits. When
people say I can't believe they did this, for that,
I generally I am not sure what they're talking about
because I cannot be steeped in it. I have to
conserve all of my energy to focus on the work
at hand, which is about saving lives in the middle
(12:12):
of this pandemic, and that's really what my mindset has
been throughout this experience. We'll be right back. I mean,
sometimes you just have to shut out the outside world
when you have a real crisis that you're facing, as
you have now for nine months. You can't get distracted.
(12:33):
Those of us who have followed you. Admire you. I
think did enough worrying for all you and your colleagues
while you could keep compartmentalizing and getting on with your job.
But you know, it raises such terrible, serious questions about
where we are as a country, and if we look
(12:55):
at our national picture right now, everybody who is willing
to to be honest and forthright knows Joe Biden won
this election. He is the president elect. Trump is refusing
to concede, and no surprise here, he has continued to
show a total lack of leadership while COVID numbers are
(13:16):
rising so dramatically. And I think about some of the
great leaders you've had in Michigan. John Dingle was a
particular favorite of mine, of course, I'm a close friend
of his wonderful wife, now Congresswoman Debbie Dingle. And he
said something that I have gone back to over and over.
(13:37):
He said, in democratic government, elected officials do not have power.
They hold power in trust for the people who elected them.
That's exactly what you're doing. As such, a contrast with
Donald Trump, what does power mean to you, especially at
(13:57):
this moment? Well, a wonderful question. I'm not sure I
have a wonderful answer. I'll just say that in the
midst of all of this, I think crisis reveals people's
character and what they're really all about. As I look
across the country, there are some phenomenal governors on both
(14:17):
sides of the aisle, stepping up, taking the mantle to
keep the people of their states safe. None of us
has the perfect response because the novel virus, and we
have to be nimble, we have to learn as we go.
We've got to be quick, we have to act quickly.
But I think about governors who have count out to
(14:40):
the Trump administration and the incredible cost that the people
of those states have paid because of it. The economic costs, certainly,
but the cost in terms of lives lost, in terms
of lives forever impacted. And I never knew, I never
contemplated all the challenges that we would have in But
(15:00):
I think, my lucky stars that I've got a phenomenal
team around me, that I was raised to be humble
enough to know where my expertise ends, and to seek
out the smartest people I can find in the midst
of this crisis, to have relationships with my fellow governors
that we can talk through and trouble, shoot and help
one another navigate these times. So I think holding a
(15:24):
position that's this powerful, especially when there's got to be
so much executive action that takes place, is humbling and
it is an incredible amount of responsibility. But I know
that the actions we've taken have saved lives, and no
matter what happens politically down the road, I will be
able to be at peace with the work that we've
(15:46):
done in this crisis. And I have colleagues who I
don't know how they will be able to sleep at
night a few years down the road, and I wouldn't
trade places with them for anything. I agree with you.
I think about people who not only at the highest
levels of our national government, like the President, the Vice
president and those who enable them, but people in your
(16:06):
state legislature. You know, people you served with, Gretchen, You
know people who you knew because you were in the
House in Michigan, you were in the state Senate. I
think about the people I served with who are still
there in the U. S. Senate on the Republican side,
who are so intimidated, so cowardly, so unwilling to say
(16:27):
what I know they know better than, and to go
along with Trump. What's that like for you? Dealing with
people that you knew personally, you served with who just
shut down because they're so afraid of whatever this Trump
phenomenon is on the right and in the Republican Party
right now. Well's it's so disappointing. I mean, it's more
(16:48):
profound than that, but I'm struggling to find the right word.
It is stunning to me that anyone would put themselves
up for these important leadership positions and then sacrifice their
best judgment to coddle someone else's ego or to preserve
their own personal interests in a future election. I just
(17:10):
I'm not built that way, and I don't think it's
even a good political calculation. I mean, when you think
about it, Biden Harris one, Michigan, you know that your
approval rating is very high, commendably so, because your citizens
are seeing what you're trying to do and approving of it.
(17:31):
I just don't even get where the political advantage they
think they are accruing comes from. Trump will be gone.
I know he's not going to leave the scene. He
has to keep feeding his ego and his malignant narcissism
will require that. But all these others who have missed
this leadership moment, who have sacrifice frankly, their reputations, their dignity.
(17:57):
I don't see how it advantages them. Yeah, I think too.
You know, one of the interesting things in this has
been so many leaders who are frustrated because there are
no easy solutions there. There is a political cost to
every decision that is made because we are so polarized
right now, there's such deep divisions. It really struck me
(18:19):
as I watched the Circus. They did an episode and
they focused on me, and they focused on Brian Kemp
in Georgia, and he is getting protested, but he's getting
protested because he's made decisions that have contributed to more
loss of life. And so while I think of the
protests here and certainly the threats on my life though,
that's that's a whole new level and there's a lot
(18:40):
to unpack there. As you mentioned, the gender issues are
are right, but he is dealing with protests down there.
And I think, if you're going to make a decision,
you know a lot of people are going to disagree
with you. Don't you want to make the one that
is is the right call, that will say I would say,
(19:01):
because I mean, really, I mean, why is that so complicated?
I don't know, I don't know. And and especially you know,
I think it especially calls me because oftentimes it will
be that side that will lecture everyone else about, you know,
life right, And I think that's particularly troublesome that they're
making political decisions and it's costing American lives. We're taking
(19:25):
a quick break. Stay with us, well, I know you have,
you have a lot of important issues on your plate.
I just want to wrap with two questions that I've
been thinking a lot about. You know, in his victory speech,
President elect Biden called for a nation united, a nation strengthened,
a nation healed. Now that is music to my ears
(19:46):
and I imagine to yours, and a lot of Americans
are eager to begin that healing, but may not think
it's possible. How do you think about that dilemma? What
would national healing or even Michigan healing look like to
you once we get through these months. We got more
good news today about another vaccine. I'm hopeful that by
(20:09):
April May we're gonna see widespread vaccination available. How do
you think this healing that we all know we need
could go forward. Well, we are in for a couple
of hard months here right This winter is going to
be very difficult, especially in the midst of a transition
of leadership in Washington, d C. But I really do
(20:30):
believe that it's important that we seek to understand. When
I ran for governor, I got into all eighty three
counties of Michigan, and Michigan is a big state, yes
it is. But I got into all ad three counties
because I wanted to connect with people that really understand.
And I think that's important and now more than ever,
and right now it's harder than ever because of COVID
(20:51):
and because it's not safe to connect in the usual way.
But I do think that that's a big part of it.
I think was Bobby Kennedy said after Martin Luther King
was killed that we must seek to understand. And I
think that's a really important lesson. We have to see
the humanity in one another. And that's why I loved
the Joe Biden's speech from the Saturday after he was
(21:14):
declared the victor. Me too, I think it's really important
to see the humanity and one another, to seek to understand.
And actually I think find some common ground instead of
scorched earth of the last four years. Amen to that.
And finally, how are you and your family planning to
spend Thanksgiving this year? Can you share with us what
(21:35):
you've got planned? Well, we're gonna zoom with my family.
So my my sister lives not far from you. She's
in Katona. Oh that's right up the road. I know. Well,
that's why I said, if those people show up again
and you want some backup, I'll sign my sister. She's
even tougher than I am. But you know, we're gonna
do a zoom with my sister and her family. They're
staying in Katona. Usually we'd all be together, but it's
(21:56):
just not safe and I'm discouraging people from getting together.
So we'll do zoo and my husband and the girls
and I are gonna each make a type of Christmas cookie.
You have a contest to see who wins. Excellent. We
gotta make it interesting and we'll watch the Lions and
hopefully Detroit Lions will win. Well, I think that sounds
like a perfect Thanksgiving. And you we usually have a
(22:18):
huge crowd. Of course, we're not having it this year,
so we're trying to divvy up. But I like the
cookie contest. I mean, that's a really good idea. I
may I may steal that from you. Well, Gretchen Whitmer,
thank you so much for not just talking today, that's
a minor piece of thank you in gratitude, but for
your leadership, for your example of the kind of leadership
(22:41):
that our country desperately needs right now. And I wish
you and your family the happiest of thanksgivings and maybe
a little bit of a breather from the heavy responsibilities
that you are exercising. Thank you so much, Oh, thank you.
It's spend an honor to be here with you. You
(23:01):
and Me Both is brought to you by I Heart Radio.
We're produced by Julie Subran and Kathleen Russo, with help
from Whoma Aberdeen, Nikki E Tour, Oscar Flores, Brianna Johnson,
Nick Merrill, Lauren Peterson, Rob Russo, and Lona Valmorro. Our
engineer is Zack McNeice. Original music is by Forest Gray.
(23:26):
If you like the show, tell someone else about it.
You can subscribe to You and Me Both on the
I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get
your Podcasts. I wasn't the only one who was eager
to hear from Governor Gretchen Whittner. A lot of our
podcast listeners wrote in to suggest having her on the show,
(23:46):
and as I told her, that really caught my attention.
If you have ideas for guests, send us an email
at you and me both pod at gmail dot com.
Come back next week when I talked to three people
who have dedicated their lives to something I love. Food,
we'll hear from Samine nos Rat, Jose Andreas, and the
(24:09):
owner of one of my favorite pizzerias in Troy, New York,
Rocco di Fasio.
You and Me Both is a production of I Heart Radio.
I'm Hillary Clinton and this is You and Me Both,
where I get to talk to people whose perspective I
really want to hear from Right now today, that person
is Gretchen Whitmer, the governor of Michigan. Gretchen Whitmer is
(00:21):
someone whose career I have followed with great interest in admiration.
She's a lifelong Michigander. She served in the Michigan State
House was the state Senate minority leader for almost a decade.
She is the second woman to serve as governor of
Michigan and one of just nine women governors in the US.
(00:41):
Just last night, on the heels of another record breaking
week for coronavirus cases in Michigan, Governor Whitmer announced new
restrictions to contain the virus, including stopping in person classes
at high schools and colleges. As she rightly pointed out,
the situation has never been dire. We are at the
(01:01):
precipice and we need to take some action. This is
not the first time she's made headlines for her leadership
and taking strong, effective measures during this pandemic. People all
over the world followed the story of the white supremacists
and militia groups that plotted to kidnap and kill her
(01:23):
just last month. I think it's safe to say that
Michigan and Governor Whitmer are at the epicenter of some
of the biggest issues affecting our country right now. I'm
so glad she could join us in the midst of
all of her other responsibilities for this very timely conversation.
Hello Gretchen, Hi there, How are you, Madam Secretary? Oh
(01:47):
my gosh. All the better for seeing you and for
you making time to talk with me today. Are you
kidding me? You're one of my heroes. I'm so glad
to be with you. Well, I I really was so
looking forward to talking with you. But you should also
know that on my podcast, we ask listeners to recommend
(02:07):
people that they would like to hear me talk with,
and your name was by far at the top of
the list. So it's not only a great personal pleasure
and really honor to talk to you, but it's something
that our listeners have been holding out for, and I
am really looking to give you a chance to talk
(02:30):
about some of what you've gone through and have done,
because you know, speaking as someone who has been in
the political firestorm and been in leadership positions and studied
others who have been leaders. I'm incredibly impressed at your thoughtfulness,
your courage, your commitment to leading and serving the people
(02:54):
of Michigan. You really are a servant leader, governor, and
that is about the highest company and I can come
up with. As we're talking, it's Monday, November sixteenth. Last
night you held a live briefing and announced that Michigan
was again having to put in place new restrictions because
(03:15):
of the massive surge in COVID cases. What are you
seeing in the data and the science that led you
to feel compelled to take this step. Well, one of
the things that I think as a nation we're really
struggling with is the vacuum of leadership in Washington, d c.
And so it's really fallen to the governors to come
(03:37):
up with strategies as individual states. And in the early
days that meant we were competing with one another to
get nine masks for our nurses and our doctors. We
were overwhelmed. We're getting inconsistent, inaccurate information from the White House,
where we had to correct it. We had to take
(03:58):
pains to come up with our own strate of Gee's
and in the midst of all that, I will say,
I'm grateful that I've got relationships with my fellow governors,
because there are many people who understand all the different
pressures that we are confronting as we make these these
hard decisions. You know, we were hit really hard early
on in Michigan. Detroit was heating up like New Orleans,
(04:20):
New York City, Chicago, and being so early on it
was before we knew that there was going to be
no national stockpile to help save the day or a
national strategy, and so we were on our own. We
took aggressive action. I listened to epidemiologists and public health
experts from Michigan, but also nationally recognized experts, and we've
(04:44):
really crushed oar we say, thousands of lives. We mitigated
the economic pain that people were, you know, confronting, and
that was being imposed on our businesses. But now here
we are in the fall, there still isn't a national strategy.
By the way, nine months later, and our COVID cases
are climbing exponentially. Part of that is things like other
(05:08):
states not taken this seriously, like South Dakota, where they
had their big Sturgis motorcycle rally that has just brought
COVID into all sorts of Midwest states. Part of it
is rallies in swing states like Michigan, where the Trump
campaign continued to come and not wear masks and packed people.
And part of it is the fall. You grew up
(05:29):
in the Midwest. Our temperatures are plummeting and we're all
going inside. All of these things converging means we've got
COVID spreading like wildfire all across the Midwest, and that's
why we have to take action. Is especially important because
we're in the midst of hopefully transition that ultimately will
become a real transition. But there still isn't that leadership
(05:51):
in Washington, d C. Your initial stay at home order
back in March led to a political standoff with Republican
legislators and your state Supreme Court. And on top of that,
there were white supremacists and militia groups that marched on
your capital, threatened you and others at that time, and
(06:14):
were cheered on by the President. I can't imagine what
it felt like that first time you saw these white
supremacists and militia members converging on your capital. How did
how did you respond to that? Governor? Yeah, so I
was over in the Romney building. So that's named for
(06:35):
Mitt Romney's father, right, who was governor of Michigan. Exactly,
a Republican of you know, distinction and a kind which
doesn't seem to exist much anymore. It's true. I I
always tell people I'm from a mixed household. My dad
was a Republican, but he was a Romney Miliican Republican,
which means he's a Democrat now. But anyway, Um, I
(06:57):
was there in the office building and I remember looking
out and it was surprising because there were Confederate flags,
which that's not the usual thing at the capital in Michigan.
We're a Union state, right, I mean, we're proud of
the role that we played in the Civil War. We
had Nazi symbolism. There were dolls with dark hair hanging
(07:20):
from nooses that were depicting me hanging you in effigy,
right exactly. That's happened to me, by the way, So
I can I can relate sadly to what you went through.
I know you can, I mean, And it culminated right
in just a few weeks ago, people channing to lock
her up about me. So I know, I know you
know this better than anybody, but it was really stunning
(07:45):
to see. We were in the midst of the early
days of this global pandemic. It was ravaging our state.
People were dying, our hospitals were filled, we were running
out of ppe, and these groups were coming to other
and it was like a Trump rally, it really was.
There's literally a Trump parade flow that was there, and
(08:06):
it was just really surprising because this virus is doesn't
care what your politics are, it doesn't care who you
voted for, where you live. Is a threat to all
of us. And so when we saw that, and then
people showing up with their automatic rifles in the capital,
and they've been many times out on our front lawn
at the residents where my teenagers, I had to explain
(08:29):
why I'm getting death threats and what's happening. But every
single time the President has mentioned me, has tweeted about me,
we see more vitriol, more death threats. It's contributing to
this really dangerous moment that culminated in kidnapping and murder plot.
(08:51):
And just even last night when I made the statement
about we have to tighten some things up to keep
people safe. Scott Atlas tweeted at michigander should rise up.
I mean it's still continuing even after this election. Well,
Scott Atlas, for our listeners who don't know, is the
neurologist from California who is one of the very few doctors,
(09:14):
let alone, he's not an epidemiologist or an infectious disease
specialist who promotes this idea of herd immunity. Let you know,
literally millions die and Trump has uh you know, listened
to him and moved him literally into the White House
where he has issued absolutely false medical assessments, and as
(09:36):
you point out, last night, after you made your announcement,
urged people in Michigan to rise up protests, protect freedom,
all of these slogans that we've come to hear. Ironically,
last night at my house there was a big crowd
of Trump supporters yelling and screaming, using bullhorns to you know,
(09:58):
insult me in all kinds of exist misogynistic ways. Because
there's no getting away from the fact that of all
the governors that took very quick and restrictive action, you
were the one that Trump went after you were the
one that he called that lady and tried to diminish
and demean. And as you just said, there were people who,
(10:22):
let's be very blunt here, have been influenced by Trump
and his form of destructive and dangerous leadership, who actually
hatched a plot to kidnap and kill you. Now many
of us followed the story of this plot in the news,
But how did you learn about it. What was the
experience you had when you were told about this plot
(10:46):
and what happened from your perspective, I think I infuriated
Donald Trump early on when I acknowledged that there was
no national strategy to combat COVID nineteen. I think I
said that back in March, right, speaking truth to power,
And here we are nine months later, and they'd even
give it up on having a strategy. They don't even
try anymore, right, I mean, they don't even like to
(11:08):
talk about COVID nineteen, much less work together to keep
people safe. And so from that day forward, the online vitriol,
the threats had started in earnest, but as this plot
got more pronounced, as it had become, they've taken steps
to actually see it out. The State Police briefed me
(11:29):
on what was happening, maybe a few weeks before the
world found out about it, and I had the opportunity
to sit down with my family and talk a little
bit about it, and to have some pretty hard conversations
with my teenage daughters because I didn't want them to
come across it or to see it on social media
and to be worried. I wanted them to know, we
know this is happening, We're safe, We're okay. But I'll
(11:51):
be honest with you, I don't know if I've processed
it yet. I haven't read all of the affidavits. When
people say I can't believe they did this, for that,
I generally I am not sure what they're talking about
because I cannot be steeped in it. I have to
conserve all of my energy to focus on the work
at hand, which is about saving lives in the middle
(12:12):
of this pandemic, and that's really what my mindset has
been throughout this experience. We'll be right back. I mean,
sometimes you just have to shut out the outside world
when you have a real crisis that you're facing, as
you have now for nine months. You can't get distracted.
(12:33):
Those of us who have followed you. Admire you. I
think did enough worrying for all you and your colleagues
while you could keep compartmentalizing and getting on with your job.
But you know, it raises such terrible, serious questions about
where we are as a country, and if we look
(12:55):
at our national picture right now, everybody who is willing
to to be honest and forthright knows Joe Biden won
this election. He is the president elect. Trump is refusing
to concede, and no surprise here, he has continued to
show a total lack of leadership while COVID numbers are
(13:16):
rising so dramatically. And I think about some of the
great leaders you've had in Michigan. John Dingle was a
particular favorite of mine, of course, I'm a close friend
of his wonderful wife, now Congresswoman Debbie Dingle. And he
said something that I have gone back to over and over.
(13:37):
He said, in democratic government, elected officials do not have power.
They hold power in trust for the people who elected them.
That's exactly what you're doing. As such, a contrast with
Donald Trump, what does power mean to you, especially at
(13:57):
this moment? Well, a wonderful question. I'm not sure I
have a wonderful answer. I'll just say that in the
midst of all of this, I think crisis reveals people's
character and what they're really all about. As I look
across the country, there are some phenomenal governors on both
(14:17):
sides of the aisle, stepping up, taking the mantle to
keep the people of their states safe. None of us
has the perfect response because the novel virus, and we
have to be nimble, we have to learn as we go.
We've got to be quick, we have to act quickly.
But I think about governors who have count out to
(14:40):
the Trump administration and the incredible cost that the people
of those states have paid because of it. The economic costs, certainly,
but the cost in terms of lives lost, in terms
of lives forever impacted. And I never knew, I never
contemplated all the challenges that we would have in But
(15:00):
I think, my lucky stars that I've got a phenomenal
team around me, that I was raised to be humble
enough to know where my expertise ends, and to seek
out the smartest people I can find in the midst
of this crisis, to have relationships with my fellow governors
that we can talk through and trouble, shoot and help
one another navigate these times. So I think holding a
(15:24):
position that's this powerful, especially when there's got to be
so much executive action that takes place, is humbling and
it is an incredible amount of responsibility. But I know
that the actions we've taken have saved lives, and no
matter what happens politically down the road, I will be
able to be at peace with the work that we've
(15:46):
done in this crisis. And I have colleagues who I
don't know how they will be able to sleep at
night a few years down the road, and I wouldn't
trade places with them for anything. I agree with you.
I think about people who not only at the highest
levels of our national government, like the President, the Vice
president and those who enable them, but people in your
(16:06):
state legislature. You know, people you served with, Gretchen, You
know people who you knew because you were in the
House in Michigan, you were in the state Senate. I
think about the people I served with who are still
there in the U. S. Senate on the Republican side,
who are so intimidated, so cowardly, so unwilling to say
(16:27):
what I know they know better than, and to go
along with Trump. What's that like for you? Dealing with
people that you knew personally, you served with who just
shut down because they're so afraid of whatever this Trump
phenomenon is on the right and in the Republican Party
right now. Well's it's so disappointing. I mean, it's more
(16:48):
profound than that, but I'm struggling to find the right word.
It is stunning to me that anyone would put themselves
up for these important leadership positions and then sacrifice their
best judgment to coddle someone else's ego or to preserve
their own personal interests in a future election. I just
(17:10):
I'm not built that way, and I don't think it's
even a good political calculation. I mean, when you think
about it, Biden Harris one, Michigan, you know that your
approval rating is very high, commendably so, because your citizens
are seeing what you're trying to do and approving of it.
(17:31):
I just don't even get where the political advantage they
think they are accruing comes from. Trump will be gone.
I know he's not going to leave the scene. He
has to keep feeding his ego and his malignant narcissism
will require that. But all these others who have missed
this leadership moment, who have sacrifice frankly, their reputations, their dignity.
(17:57):
I don't see how it advantages them. Yeah, I think too.
You know, one of the interesting things in this has
been so many leaders who are frustrated because there are
no easy solutions there. There is a political cost to
every decision that is made because we are so polarized
right now, there's such deep divisions. It really struck me
(18:19):
as I watched the Circus. They did an episode and
they focused on me, and they focused on Brian Kemp
in Georgia, and he is getting protested, but he's getting
protested because he's made decisions that have contributed to more
loss of life. And so while I think of the
protests here and certainly the threats on my life though,
that's that's a whole new level and there's a lot
(18:40):
to unpack there. As you mentioned, the gender issues are
are right, but he is dealing with protests down there.
And I think, if you're going to make a decision,
you know a lot of people are going to disagree
with you. Don't you want to make the one that
is is the right call, that will say I would say,
(19:01):
because I mean, really, I mean, why is that so complicated?
I don't know, I don't know. And and especially you know,
I think it especially calls me because oftentimes it will
be that side that will lecture everyone else about, you know,
life right, And I think that's particularly troublesome that they're
making political decisions and it's costing American lives. We're taking
(19:25):
a quick break. Stay with us, well, I know you have,
you have a lot of important issues on your plate.
I just want to wrap with two questions that I've
been thinking a lot about. You know, in his victory speech,
President elect Biden called for a nation united, a nation strengthened,
a nation healed. Now that is music to my ears
(19:46):
and I imagine to yours, and a lot of Americans
are eager to begin that healing, but may not think
it's possible. How do you think about that dilemma? What
would national healing or even Michigan healing look like to
you once we get through these months. We got more
good news today about another vaccine. I'm hopeful that by
(20:09):
April May we're gonna see widespread vaccination available. How do
you think this healing that we all know we need
could go forward. Well, we are in for a couple
of hard months here right This winter is going to
be very difficult, especially in the midst of a transition
of leadership in Washington, d C. But I really do
(20:30):
believe that it's important that we seek to understand. When
I ran for governor, I got into all eighty three
counties of Michigan, and Michigan is a big state, yes
it is. But I got into all ad three counties
because I wanted to connect with people that really understand.
And I think that's important and now more than ever,
and right now it's harder than ever because of COVID
(20:51):
and because it's not safe to connect in the usual way.
But I do think that that's a big part of it.
I think was Bobby Kennedy said after Martin Luther King
was killed that we must seek to understand. And I
think that's a really important lesson. We have to see
the humanity in one another. And that's why I loved
the Joe Biden's speech from the Saturday after he was
(21:14):
declared the victor. Me too, I think it's really important
to see the humanity and one another, to seek to understand.
And actually I think find some common ground instead of
scorched earth of the last four years. Amen to that.
And finally, how are you and your family planning to
spend Thanksgiving this year? Can you share with us what
(21:35):
you've got planned? Well, we're gonna zoom with my family.
So my my sister lives not far from you. She's
in Katona. Oh that's right up the road. I know. Well,
that's why I said, if those people show up again
and you want some backup, I'll sign my sister. She's
even tougher than I am. But you know, we're gonna
do a zoom with my sister and her family. They're
staying in Katona. Usually we'd all be together, but it's
(21:56):
just not safe and I'm discouraging people from getting together.
So we'll do zoo and my husband and the girls
and I are gonna each make a type of Christmas cookie.
You have a contest to see who wins. Excellent. We
gotta make it interesting and we'll watch the Lions and
hopefully Detroit Lions will win. Well, I think that sounds
like a perfect Thanksgiving. And you we usually have a
(22:18):
huge crowd. Of course, we're not having it this year,
so we're trying to divvy up. But I like the
cookie contest. I mean, that's a really good idea. I
may I may steal that from you. Well, Gretchen Whitmer,
thank you so much for not just talking today, that's
a minor piece of thank you in gratitude, but for
your leadership, for your example of the kind of leadership
(22:41):
that our country desperately needs right now. And I wish
you and your family the happiest of thanksgivings and maybe
a little bit of a breather from the heavy responsibilities
that you are exercising. Thank you so much, Oh, thank you.
It's spend an honor to be here with you. You
(23:01):
and Me Both is brought to you by I Heart Radio.
We're produced by Julie Subran and Kathleen Russo, with help
from Whoma Aberdeen, Nikki E Tour, Oscar Flores, Brianna Johnson,
Nick Merrill, Lauren Peterson, Rob Russo, and Lona Valmorro. Our
engineer is Zack McNeice. Original music is by Forest Gray.
(23:26):
If you like the show, tell someone else about it.
You can subscribe to You and Me Both on the
I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get
your Podcasts. I wasn't the only one who was eager
to hear from Governor Gretchen Whittner. A lot of our
podcast listeners wrote in to suggest having her on the show,
(23:46):
and as I told her, that really caught my attention.
If you have ideas for guests, send us an email
at you and me both pod at gmail dot com.
Come back next week when I talked to three people
who have dedicated their lives to something I love. Food,
we'll hear from Samine nos Rat, Jose Andreas, and the
(24:09):
owner of one of my favorite pizzerias in Troy, New York,
Rocco di Fasio.
Host
Hillary Clinton
Popular Podcasts
40s and Free Agents: NFL Draft Season
Daniel Jeremiah of Move the Sticks and Gregg Rosenthal of NFL Daily join forces to break down every team's needs this offseason.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.