July 29, 2024 • 34 mins
This Is For The Therapists is a series created to highlight and dive into topics that impact therapists specifically. This week, we talk about what happens when you mess up at work.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Coming up on you need therapy.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
So I almost think that practicing that vulnerability of addressing, hey,
I messed up. You know, you might not have seen
me as someone who can mess up, but I am
and I did.
Speaker 3 (00:12):
So can we.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Talk about that here and know that just because it
was unpleasant doesn't necessarily mean it's bad, or the relationship
has to end or the relationship has changed for the worse.
Because even in my experience, I've noticed that if we
can make it through those areas of discomfort and talk
about it, then we can talk about other things. We
don't have to sweep things under the rug.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
I started to realize that not being an expert isn't
a liability, it's a real gift. If we don't know
something about ourselves at this point in our life, it's
probably because it's uncomfortable to know. If you can die
before you die, then you can really live. There's a
wisdom at death's door.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
I thought I was insane, Yeah, and I didn't know
what to do because there was no internet, no man.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
I'm like, I feel like everything is hard. Hey, y'all,
my name is Kat. I'm a human first and a
licensed therapist second. And right now I'm inviting you into
conversations that I hope encourage you to become more curious
and less judgmental about yourself, others, and the world around you.
(01:21):
Welcome to You Need Therapy. Hi guys, and welcome back
to a new episode of You Need Therapy podcast. My
name is Kat. I am the host. And before we
get into anything, this is your quick reminder that although
it's called You Need Therapy, I am a therapist. This
podcast does not serve as a replacement or a substitute
(01:42):
for any actual mental health services. And you have again,
this is becoming quite a theme here more than one therapist,
because I have Bridget Back, who came on about a
month ago.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
Yeah, I think so about a month ago.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Bridget is a therapist. She's new to three quarts therapy,
which is the therapy practice I have in Nashville, and
she talked about a month ago on maternal mental health.
And people loved that episode.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
Oh well, thank you for having me. I loved being
on it.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
And I'm sure we will do a lot of spin
offs from that because there are so many things we
could have talked so.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Much, I know we didn't even cover everything. And I've
take an hour.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
We could have just done like a whole series and that.
But I've been talking to you guys about this new
series I wanted to bring on called This Is for
the Therapist, and quick reminder about that it's not going
to be like ten episodes in a row. It's just
another series that's going to pop up whenever I get
a burst of energy around something, and it's going to
(02:47):
be ongoing, like the one that I do with Tara Booker.
The difference between when we talk about things that are
originally from mental health spaces and have been then taken
over in the pop culture realm. We talk about that
this is one of those things where will randomly pop up.
You might see a couple of backpack episodes now because
I have this jolt of energy around this idea. So
(03:09):
what we're doing is we're talking about things that have
to do more with the idea of being a therapist,
so they can apply to anybody and you'll see that
very quickly. But I wanted to talk specifically to the
experience of being a therapist because I am one, and
I let's talk about this, and what we're going to
start with today is rupture and repairs as a therapist,
(03:33):
specifically in the therapeutic room, but we're going to take
that outside of the therapy room too, Because I was
talking to Bridget right before we started. I have noticed
that I feel there is a difference in myself and
I can only compare to myself, but there's a difference
in myself around doing a repair in my real life
(03:53):
and doing a repair as a therapist. It's different. But
I also think the experience of pairing something in my
real life feels a little bit different than if I
wasn't a therapist.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
Oh, definitely, there's way more pressure. Yes, it's interesting because
there's similarities, but they do feel very different because one
is you're risking your social connections and one is you're
risking your professional But at the same time, like where
human and connection is connection, But it does.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
Feel very different. But there's a lot of pressure as well.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Yeah, and I will add on too that that in
the therapy room, as the therapist making the repair, it's like, oh,
I'm supposed to be therapist. I'm supposed to be the
one that does me correctly. And then also as a
therapist in my real life, I have this like, oh,
I'm a therapist I'm supposed to like not have to
do this, And I imagine that I wouldn't have that
(04:44):
thought if I wasn't a therapist, so right, right, Like.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
I wouldn't be like, contractors are never supposed to mess
up in relationships?
Speaker 1 (04:51):
What am I doing exactly? Yeah? Did I go into
the wrong profession? So to get started, you were a therapist,
you probably know what this means. But if you're not,
you might be like, Oh, what are those words? They
rupture and prepare? That sounds nice? What is that? And
we're going to talk about what that is first before
we go into the experience of doing that as a therapist.
(05:13):
So a rupture is just kind of, in the simplest terms,
a form of conflict. So it would be a break
in any kind of connection between two people. It could
be I mean between more than two people, but there
needs to be two people. And it's caused by so
many things. It would be caused by emotion, It can
be caused by a comment, something you said, something you
(05:34):
didn't say. A rupture can be big. It can be
something that you did that was huge, like you blew
somebody off when you were supposed to show it to
an event or you called them a name when you
were feeling some feelings. Or it can be small like
you didn't validate somebody when they really were like turning
(05:57):
towards you and looking for something, or you forgot to
put the dishes away when you told somebody you were
going to put the dishes away. There's a range the
word rupture. I think I get this like, whoa, that
sounds like a big thing. Yeah, it says break in conflict,
I would say, like it could be a crack.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
And I think even just a more general way to
put it is anything that leads to disconnection and whether
it's really disconnected or you know, we just weren't really
clicking in therapy today, things like that, I think that
counts as a rupture. And then anything that brings us
closer to connection I would count as in the repair.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Conrepair, which I'm so glad you said that because the
word it could lead to disconnection I think is important
because oftentimes the repairs as therapists, this is for me
that I have to make are things that I could
get by with not acknowledging, definitely, but the client's going
(06:59):
to clock that. And so there is this almost game
that they're playing where they have to guard what they
say or not share certain things, or it just puts
more work on the client to do, which leads to
the disconnection.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Yeah, and I think that also speaks to the way
that rupture and repair is different in the therapy room,
because when we are with a client, there is a
power imbalance, and if we choose to not say something,
because in action is a choice just as much as
action is, if we choose to not say something, that
might put the client in an awkward position because maybe
(07:37):
they haven't been in a situation where they are in
a position of disempowerment where they've said something versus you know,
if let's say something happens with a partner or a friend,
that's more of an equal playing ground, and you know,
really either of us could say something. So I think
that's another reason that it feels so different in the
(07:57):
therapy room.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
And if you are managing as the client, if you're
trying to get your therapist to like you, it's like,
I don't want to cause the conflict, and it's like
you weren't causing the complict right, right, And so there's
a pressure that they put on themselves and I think
as therapists, it's our job to manage that as best
we can. Is we are supposed to be creating a
(08:21):
safe space in a space that models healthy relationship. So
you already kind of touched on what a repair is,
but it's basically what you said, like any statement or
an action or something that tries to bring us closer
together and kind of almost breaks that tension that we
might be holding. It's anything that tries to bring the
(08:43):
disconnection back into connection, similar to an amends or what
some people might be more familiar with a form of
an apology.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
Yeah, And I think a big part of that is
recognizing what was my part in it, Because you know,
something like sorry you felt that way, sorry you took
it so personally, that's probably not going to lead to
more connection. That'll probably lead to definitely you did this right.
It's like, I'm not really a part of this. I
(09:13):
just happened to be here when things went wrong, but
it wasn't my fault. So I think that part of repair,
amend's apology, whatever you want to call it, is recognizing
what was my part in it, recognizing my actions, what
the effect was on you, and finding a way of
how can I make this better? You know going forward?
(09:35):
Is there something you wish I did? Is there something
you wish I didn't do? Here's my thoughts. I'm thinking
I should have done it this way. What do you
think about that, because that's going to really foster more
opportunity for connection versus if I had nothing to do
with it. How am I gonna mend the situation?
Speaker 1 (09:53):
You deal with that over there? Yes, it's like an
othering thing. As you were saying that, I was thinking,
what as a therapist comes up when I do something
that creates a rupture in the relationship with my client.
So when I notice myself whether it's I forgot something,
(10:13):
and I will be the first to say. If you're
listening to this and you're my client, you might be like, yeah,
I was waiting for you to get that. I have
messed up a lot of scheduling things. I have accidentally
charged people the wrong amount. I have walked into my
waiting room and there's three of my clients waiting and
(10:33):
I'm like, you guys are all here for me? Or
one of are you? Just hang yeah. So I have
had my share of those kinds of ruptures that I
do think matter a lot. Yeah, and then I have
my share of I like forgot a detail of a story,
(10:55):
which I can say a lot on whether that's a
rupture or not. Or I said I was going to
follow up about something I didn't, or I said I
was going to send them something and I didn't. So
those kind of all go into the same category. Then
there are the things where like I say something that
might have been hurtful, or I totally steamrolled the session
(11:17):
and was too hyper focused on something that wasn't even
what I should have focused on. Sometimes I noticed that
stuff in the moment. Sometimes after the session, I'm like,
where was my head? Yeah, I could give so many examples,
But going back to my original thought of what comes
up in me when I think about the first group,
I don't have as much resistance making a repair right
(11:42):
one because it's like, yeah, what are you going to
act like you didn't do it right?
Speaker 3 (11:44):
It's pretty cut and dry, like there's three of us.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
The other part, there's a part of my personality and
that people just know about, Like I can be forgetful
and it's not an excuse. I'm working on it. I
can be unorganized, and sometimes that stuff just happens, I
still can take responsibility for it, but it does I
think hit on anything that I think has to do
with me being good at my job. That's my own
personal feelings. Somebody else might be like, well you should
(12:09):
because that is part of your job. But for me personally,
those kind of feelings don't come up because I can
separate those.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
Yeah, it doesn't hit the ego as much. No, it's
much more surface level things like that.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Yes, where some other people might be like, if they
are more perfectionistic, that might be more of a yeah,
But for me, I'm like, oh, I don't really hold
that stuffs to high a standard. But the stuff where
I'm like, shoot, I was stuck in my own stuff
and totally misjudged what was going on and didn't offer
them the right kind of space, or I wasn't curious.
(12:41):
I kind of became more preachery, right, or I think
I self disclosed too much, and yeah, oh man, they
didn't not even that, like they don't need to hear that.
It's like I wasted their time, right, it wasn't helpful, right,
I was like, I think I was saying that for
myself exactly exactly those things are harder for me, and
I'm trying to think of what the actual feeling is,
(13:03):
but it's shame. I think I feel out of shame
because like I should know better, I should do better.
I do hold myself to that standard, and this says
something about me fully as a therapist versus a thing
I did. And I think there's also some fear there
that if I bring it into the room, they won't
(13:23):
trust me right, or maybe they didn't notice that I
was in my head, and if so, if I acknowledge that,
then they're going to think that maybe I'm not very
good at my job. Maybe they didn't notice that I
was in my head, and if so, if I acknowledge that,
then they're going to think that maybe I'm not very
(13:45):
good at my job.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
Yeah, definitely for me, I would say the number one
thing that I experience is fear. And I think I
have a lot of fear of like I don't want
to cause harm because in grad school they to us
about causing harm, so in my mind, I was like,
any moment you make the wrong move and someone's ruined
for life. So I know that comes up a lot,
(14:08):
but also the fear of just hurting someone's feelings, or
someone coming to you and entrusting you with that honor
of being a person they come to during a hard
time and falling flat and just not being what they
needed in the moment. So I have a lot of
fear of have I irrevocably damaged to this relationship? Have
I really altered our trust? Are they gonna think, Wow,
(14:31):
this person is bad at her job, Maybe I shouldn't
even see her. So that's a lot of the fear,
and making repairs with clients can be really, really scary,
but I have had such positive experiences with it because
literally never have my.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
Biggest fears been confirmed.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
So I remember one repair I did with a client
that it was like, you know, whatever night of the
week I had this client, I thought about it for
the next seven days and like start the session, I'm like, hey,
just wanted to address what kurd last week, and you know,
I like apologize, I say my part, and she was like, oh,
you're so sweet.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
I literally didn't even notice that happened.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
So I do think a lot for me, it's fear
because when I have these unrealistic thoughts that are very
rarely confirmed, that's usually a fear driven thing for me.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
I love your impersonation of you. Well, she doesn't actually
sound like no, I would never Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
My impersonations of people are and myself included, are usually.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
Very extreme amatic. Yeah, but I also love that you
just said like your client was like, oh what, I
didn't even notice that she really And so you mentioned
this earlier, I think before we started recording. But the
worst case scenario is what.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
Like as a therapist, like for you, what's the worst
case like causing harm?
Speaker 1 (15:53):
Yeah, yeah, okay, But what usually happens they either say
oh I didn't even notice that or.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
That or oh my gosh, thank you so much for
bringing that up. You know, it was on my mind,
but I didn't want to bring it up. And usually
all think they're thinking one thing, they're actually thinking something else,
and it's usually less extreme. But it was an area
where we weren't really connecting and there was, you know,
that that disharmony, that not really being on the same page,
(16:21):
and I thought it was probably due to me, but
it was actually, oh, you know, I was actually thinking
about this other thing, but I was scared to tell you.
And so that's another thing that you know, making repairs
and immens has taught me that you can really trust
your instinct, Like if something feels off, it probably is off,
and you're probably not the only one feeling it in
the room. So yeah, what I found is that when
(16:45):
I do it, either they haven't been thinking about it,
or it opens up this whole new conversation that we
wouldn't have covered if we hadn't experienced this momentary discomfort
between the two of us, because it's usually related to
other things.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
I know, how I said that one of my fears
is that the client won't trust me. This is very
interesting because what I think happens more often. Now. Nothing
is in absolutes here, so take all of this with
a grain of salt. But what I think usually happens,
at least for my experience, is when I see somebody
(17:20):
that I value or trust or look up to act
like a human being, be a human have humility, mess
up the sense of relief I get in my body.
I don't know how to describe. And one of my
favorite memories of being a client in therapy is when
a therapist did a little self disclosure and told me
(17:45):
a part of her life that was really missy, and
I was like, I don't know if I even said
this to her, or if I just said in my head,
I was like, Okay, I'm gonna be okay. Yes, I'm
gonna be okay because I respect you and I see
what you're doing and you don't have all this perfect
all the time, Like I don't have to do that either.
(18:07):
And one of my favorite things also as I was
becoming a therapist is seeing other therapists be a little messy,
seeing other therapists not always have a perfect outfit on
and didn't always have to be dressed to business casual
and they like there's something about like seeing a therapist
go to work in jeans that I was like, oh cool,
(18:27):
I don't have to like we can relax a little bit.
I don't have to like look this part, play, this part,
be this. And I think as a client on the
other side, outside of even being a therapist, it allows
me space to actually like have the courage to do
the things that I'm in therapy to do. And so
while I'm the therapist thinking well, if I show them
(18:49):
then I'm not perfect, they won't trust me anymore. That
goes against what we actually are doing and what we're
trying to help people see in themselves is like, you
can be a human being and people will still love you.
So when we mess up as therapists, I see now
it is one hundred percent uncomfortable and such an asset
(19:12):
to the therapeutic process. And I think it's just so
silly that at the same time I'm like, oh, like,
I think it's gonna be the opposite.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
Well, I think that really speaks to kind of the
lens of connection versus disconnection, for rupture versus repair, because
from that story, it sounds like possibly the most you've
ever felt connected with your therapist in a way because
it's like, oh, I can relate to this person, and
you know, hopefully we like our therapists, and it's like, oh,
(19:43):
I really like this person. I look up to them,
I feel connected with them, and they don't have it
all together and sometimes they put their foot in their
mouth and sometimes they mess up their calendar and that's okay.
And so if it's okay for this person that I trust, admire,
look up to, maybe it's okay for me. And so
it's part of that modeling as well as you know
(20:05):
that here and now experience of addressing something that came up.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Yeah, and I think having that happen in the more
beginning of that relationship. Later down the line, I saw
the therapist for like five years when there would be
things that I didn't really love that she said, I
had so much grace for that too. Yes, so she's
helping me lean into the therapy process as I think.
One thing that happens and I do see that happens
(20:30):
is and not even that it's happening within my clients
because I wouldn't know because they wouldn't come back, but
just hearing about stories from my friends and people around me,
is we judge so harshly, right, and we don't even
allow space for there to be a repair because we
see something we don't like in somebody, or we we
(20:50):
hear somebody we don't like from a therapist and we
just never go back. And I think that it is
a disservice because you could actually gain more from not
having a perfect therapist then looking for it.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
Yeah, that also makes me think of one of the
biggest markers I look for in clients but also for
myself to kind of gauge how I'm doing is.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
How rigid versus how flexible is their thinking?
Speaker 2 (21:17):
So do they have really rigid black and white all
are nothing thinking where this person needs either perfect or
you know, oh, they made one mistake, I can't trust them.
I feel like this comes a lot comes up a
lot in dating, Like someone will recognize one flaw in
a potential.
Speaker 3 (21:33):
Partner and they're like, oh, well no they're out.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
So to me, that's that's very rigid versus flexible. Can
they see the gray area? Can they see that, Wow,
I really like so much about this person and yet
they make mistakes. And I think bringing that gray area
into the room of you know, yeah, we have a
lot of sessions where we're so connected and a lot
happens and you feel hurt and you feel seen and
(21:56):
you feel understood, but not one hundred percent of the
time because it's not really possible for humans. So I
almost think that practicing that vulnerability of addressing hey, I
messed up. You know, you might not have seen me
as someone who can mess up, but I am and
I did.
Speaker 3 (22:12):
So can we.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
Talk about that here and know that just because it
was unpleasant doesn't necessarily mean it's bad or the relationship
has to end or the relationship has changed for the worse.
Because even in my experience making repairs or amends has
strengthened my relationships, whether it's a therapeutic relationship or a friendship,
(22:33):
or a partnership or a family member. I've noticed that
if we can make it through those areas of discomfort
and talk about it, then we can talk about other things.
We don't have to sweep things under the rug.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
And if we start with those little things too, yeah,
helpfully so if we never ever ever acknowledge any of
our little ruptures that we make, like the scheduling things,
or that I rolled my eyes when I should maybe
shouldn't have, or things like that, they're like the stairs
that lead to the safeness to be able to do
the big thing. Yeah, it opens up the door a
little bit. What I really want you guys to hear
(23:12):
is that as a therapist, as a human who is
a therapist, you are going to do things, yeah, that
cause rupture within your clients. We could have a list
that would take us three hours to read of what
that might. It's inevitable it's going to happen, and avoiding
it is only going to perpetuate the feelings and the
(23:34):
fears and the stories you have around that and leaning
into it is going to do one help you be
a better therapist to your clients, but also be a
more i think, authentic human being in your life outside
of that, because you're no longer holding yourself to a
standard that is not human to hold. And the stories
(23:55):
we have around I will lose credibility or people won't
like me, I won't have those probably aren't going to happen.
But if you lean into those stories and you don't
do them, those stories will become solidified. Yes, yeah, And
if there are people that write you off because you've
made a mistake and you try to make amends, like one,
(24:16):
that sucks. Yeah, that just really sucks. And two, it
doesn't mean that that was wrong for you to do
because living in the tension, sweeping things under the rug
and modeling that for your clients is hurting them more
than them not accepting that repair in them.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
Leaving definitely, And that makes me think about you know,
these repairs, like you said, they're between two people, but
they also really affect what's going on inside of us.
And so let's say in the scenario you'll really upset
someone and you make or your attempt to make a
repair and amends and you recognize your part in things,
and you recognize how your actions affected the person you apologize,
(24:58):
You say how can I do it differently? And they say, nope,
I want nothing to do with you. I think an
effect that does come out of that that's positive is
when you lay your head down at night, the most
recent memory is how you tried to make an amends
and you really tried to repair it. And so maybe
the next repair is can you forgive yourself for making
(25:18):
that mistake, knowing you did everything in your power to
try to write that wrong and you know, maybe learn
from it and don't do it again. But knowing that, wow,
I am someone who goes out of the way in
this really uncomfortable situation to try to repair this relationship
for the better. Maybe they're a person who's not in
(25:39):
a place to accept it, and that's okay. But what
I know about myself is I was vulnerable. I did
this thing that was really hard, And can I be
okay with just that because that's the only thing that's
in your control in that situation.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
And you can't do better than the best you can do. Yeah.
I think that is something that I come back to
is when I look back and cringe on some things
that happened in the early stages of me being a therapist.
I have to say I was doing the best I
could with what I knew. And the only reason that
I'm good at certain things that I'm doing now is
because I learned how to do them. It's not because
(26:13):
I was born that way. I think maybe some people might.
I'm gonna leave space for that. Some people might be
born good at conflict. I wasn't born good at some
of this stuff. They are muscles that I've worked and
so I think anybody who's listening to this and is like, oh,
but you're going to mess up at making the repair,
and you're going to have the times where you didn't
(26:33):
know what to say and you said the wrong thing.
And I tried to give this grace to everybody, not
just myself. But we can't do better than the best
we can do. And so if you could have done
a better job at that time, I think we would
have chosen to do that. And so it's more about
accepting our limitations.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
Yeah, And I think that brings it full circle to
that shame piece of we really spend a lot of
time beating ourselves up for not knowing how to do
things that we've never learn to do. And you know,
part of that can I forgive myself for being in
a place where I hadn't learned that yet, And now
that I've learned it, I know now I can do
something with it that I know I would never choose
(27:11):
to make a that same exact mistake again, So, you know,
kind of looking at the shame piece there of like,
how is beating yourself up for making that mistake serving you?
Speaker 1 (27:21):
It's probably probably not, probably not okay. And the last
thing I really want to touch on really quickly is
give an example of what this actually can look like,
because one thing I notice about any kind of conflict
is people really make it a lot bigger than it
needs to be. And I can just see somebody being like, okay,
almost kind of how you said you did it. Yes,
(27:44):
I'm gonna work on this all week, and I'm gonna
write this script out and I'm gonna sit down and
we're gonna spend the whole session talking about this thing
and end up being thirty seconds. Yes, And it does.
It can be as simple as hey, you know what
I was thinking about our last session and I realized
that I missed some things that I think might be
important to you, and so I wanted to start this
(28:04):
session off one saying sorry that I wasn't at the
top of my game in that moment. And two, is
there anything that you want to share from last session?
Are there things that I didn't allow you space to
go down, or there are other thoughts that you had.
I want to give you that space, and then they
can say, oh, I don't know what you're talking about,
or actually, yeah, I was feeling this, and just then
(28:28):
you get to give them that space.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Yeah. And I think in that example there's two really
important elements. One is being specific about what I did,
because you know, if we come in there and we're like, hey,
you know that thing happened last week? Really sorry, they're like,
what are you talking about? So that specificity of this
was my action. But then the other really important element
that I heard there was how did it affect you?
(28:52):
What was that experience like for you? What is it
like to discuss this now here, and so recognizing my
part but then not making it about me, making it
about our relationship, and what was the experience.
Speaker 3 (29:05):
Like for you?
Speaker 1 (29:07):
And one thing that I think is important, especially if
the client is like, oh, it wasn't that big of
a deal to offer. Okay, if in the future it
comes up, I want you to know it's okay to
bring it back in. Oh. I love that, because they
might have like, oh, gosh, I don't want I don't
(29:27):
want to talk about this, because maybe that's something they're
working on, is conflict and not wanting to be in that,
and so they might want to just like I don't
want to talk about that. You're fine, everything's fine. I'm
a people pleaser. And as you continue to do work
with them, it might be like, actually, now that I'm
allowing myself to have feelings that pissed me off, Yes,
so we can come back to it. It doesn't have
to be like bury, Oh.
Speaker 3 (29:47):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
It's the same thing, just opening the door a bit
so that you know, Hey, I'm comfortable talking about this
and I'm aware it happened, and I'm also happy to
wait until you're ready to talk about it. I'm happy
to move at your pace.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
I also think it's okay if you notice something as
a therapist, I mean, you use your own discernment with
the client and the experience. If you're not going to
see them for like a month. I think it's totally
cool to send them an email and say, hey, this
has been on my mind. I just want you to
know that I feel XYZ because of XYZ. If you
want to talk about this next session, I'm happy to.
(30:20):
If you want to hop on a phone call, I'm
happy to. Depending on the client, you might decide something different.
But I don't think we always have to wait until
the next session, because sometimes next sessions aren't next week. Yes,
and that can be just as much for us as
it is for them as it is for the relationship too.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Definitely, and I think just recognizing that something happened before
we give ourselves or the client an opportunity to talk
ourselves out of it, like, oh, maybe I'm overreacting, maybe
it really didn't even happen. Just having that validation of wow,
I actually did feel really off in that session and
my therapist is confirming that I didn't make it up.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
I think that's really impactful.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
Going back to the power differential, Yeah, especially we're in
this space where sometimes our clients really are like, will
you tell me what I'm feeling? And I'm like, don't.
I can't do that right, But to me that makes sense.
It's like, well, if they did it, and they're the therapists,
and so maybe it's supposed to be like that, and
I'm just like sensitive and I'm I need to work
on that myself, and I just acknowledging that, like it
wasn't you, it was me.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
Right, and just acknowledging the situation can be so reparative.
Like sometimes you know, I have this idea that a
repair is going to be I share my soliloquy of
here's my blundin, I'm so sorry and all these things,
and it's really just like, oh my, thanks for saying that,
and it's moved on, We're done. It's just really validating
(31:40):
and a lot of people I've learned from, you know,
my time as a therapist is that many people have
not been apologized to sincerely, you know, beyond the sorry
you took it that way, but recognizing something, bringing it
to the light and saying, hey, I'm sorry about this,
what was your experience with that? Sometimes it's their first
opportunity to really discuss that, and whether it's you know,
(32:04):
over email or in person, it still has I think
a really positive impact for the relationship.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
Yeah, So I hope this was helpful for you guys,
and I hope even if you aren't a therapist, it
gives you some encouragement or some a little dose of
courage for you to go out and acknowledge that making
a repair is not making the rupture worse. It's most
likely going to help mend that and bring you closer together.
And I can say I'm so thankful for a lot
(32:32):
of the ruptures I've had within I mean, in my life,
but also not all of them because they weren't all repaired,
but some of the ruptures I've had as a therapist,
they have brought so much healing to our clients. And
also I can think of a couple experiences where there's
been a little bit of a rupture and when I
(32:53):
acknowledge it, it so much was opened up. Yes, like
the whole dynamic change. It's where the real work began.
And I had to be in a space where I
could set my ego on the desk and then sit
in their featuir and so not the easiest thing to
do all the time, especially when you're a new therapist
(33:13):
and you're like, I'm gonna save everybody's life. Yeah, I
think I was talking to you and I was like,
none of my clients are ever going to relapse? Yes,
because I'm really good at what I am doing. And me,
mom never ever had a client before in my life.
And I'm like, but there's something about me that's special.
And I was like, okay, there's not.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
Yeah, there's a limit to what I could Okay, okay,
and we've seen the limits. Oh it's just one hour
for an entire week.
Speaker 3 (33:37):
Okay, you no, no, there is a limit there.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
Okay, Oh my god. Okay, Well that humble. If you
have any questions, feel free to send them Katherine at
UNI Therapy podcast dot com. If you have ideas for
more topics on this or it can be a couch
talks question too. It doesn't just have to go to
the therapist's series. Send it our way if you want
(33:59):
to follow us at You Need Therapy podcast and at
three Quarters Therapy, and you can follow me at kat
van Buren. I changed my name, oh fancy. I haven't
changed anything else, but I changed my answer name.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
Baby.
Speaker 1 (34:13):
So okay, And also, thank you Bridget for doing this.
You'll be back a million more times.
Speaker 3 (34:19):
Thank you for having me again.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
This is so fun, and I hope you guys have
the day you need to have. Bye.
Coming up on you need therapy.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
So I almost think that practicing that vulnerability of addressing, hey,
I messed up. You know, you might not have seen
me as someone who can mess up, but I am
and I did.
Speaker 3 (00:12):
So can we.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Talk about that here and know that just because it
was unpleasant doesn't necessarily mean it's bad, or the relationship
has to end or the relationship has changed for the worse.
Because even in my experience, I've noticed that if we
can make it through those areas of discomfort and talk
about it, then we can talk about other things. We
don't have to sweep things under the rug.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
I started to realize that not being an expert isn't
a liability, it's a real gift. If we don't know
something about ourselves at this point in our life, it's
probably because it's uncomfortable to know. If you can die
before you die, then you can really live. There's a
wisdom at death's door.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
I thought I was insane, Yeah, and I didn't know
what to do because there was no internet, no man.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
I'm like, I feel like everything is hard. Hey, y'all,
my name is Kat. I'm a human first and a
licensed therapist second. And right now I'm inviting you into
conversations that I hope encourage you to become more curious
and less judgmental about yourself, others, and the world around you.
(01:21):
Welcome to You Need Therapy. Hi guys, and welcome back
to a new episode of You Need Therapy podcast. My
name is Kat. I am the host. And before we
get into anything, this is your quick reminder that although
it's called You Need Therapy, I am a therapist. This
podcast does not serve as a replacement or a substitute
(01:42):
for any actual mental health services. And you have again,
this is becoming quite a theme here more than one therapist,
because I have Bridget Back, who came on about a
month ago.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
Yeah, I think so about a month ago.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Bridget is a therapist. She's new to three quarts therapy,
which is the therapy practice I have in Nashville, and
she talked about a month ago on maternal mental health.
And people loved that episode.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
Oh well, thank you for having me. I loved being
on it.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
And I'm sure we will do a lot of spin
offs from that because there are so many things we
could have talked so.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Much, I know we didn't even cover everything. And I've
take an hour.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
We could have just done like a whole series and that.
But I've been talking to you guys about this new
series I wanted to bring on called This Is for
the Therapist, and quick reminder about that it's not going
to be like ten episodes in a row. It's just
another series that's going to pop up whenever I get
a burst of energy around something, and it's going to
(02:47):
be ongoing, like the one that I do with Tara Booker.
The difference between when we talk about things that are
originally from mental health spaces and have been then taken
over in the pop culture realm. We talk about that
this is one of those things where will randomly pop up.
You might see a couple of backpack episodes now because
I have this jolt of energy around this idea. So
(03:09):
what we're doing is we're talking about things that have
to do more with the idea of being a therapist,
so they can apply to anybody and you'll see that
very quickly. But I wanted to talk specifically to the
experience of being a therapist because I am one, and
I let's talk about this, and what we're going to
start with today is rupture and repairs as a therapist,
(03:33):
specifically in the therapeutic room, but we're going to take
that outside of the therapy room too, Because I was
talking to Bridget right before we started. I have noticed
that I feel there is a difference in myself and
I can only compare to myself, but there's a difference
in myself around doing a repair in my real life
(03:53):
and doing a repair as a therapist. It's different. But
I also think the experience of pairing something in my
real life feels a little bit different than if I
wasn't a therapist.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
Oh, definitely, there's way more pressure. Yes, it's interesting because
there's similarities, but they do feel very different because one
is you're risking your social connections and one is you're
risking your professional But at the same time, like where
human and connection is connection, But it does.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
Feel very different. But there's a lot of pressure as well.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Yeah, and I will add on too that that in
the therapy room, as the therapist making the repair, it's like, oh,
I'm supposed to be therapist. I'm supposed to be the
one that does me correctly. And then also as a
therapist in my real life, I have this like, oh,
I'm a therapist I'm supposed to like not have to
do this, And I imagine that I wouldn't have that
(04:44):
thought if I wasn't a therapist, so right, right, Like.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
I wouldn't be like, contractors are never supposed to mess
up in relationships?
Speaker 1 (04:51):
What am I doing exactly? Yeah? Did I go into
the wrong profession? So to get started, you were a therapist,
you probably know what this means. But if you're not,
you might be like, Oh, what are those words? They
rupture and prepare? That sounds nice? What is that? And
we're going to talk about what that is first before
we go into the experience of doing that as a therapist.
(05:13):
So a rupture is just kind of, in the simplest terms,
a form of conflict. So it would be a break
in any kind of connection between two people. It could
be I mean between more than two people, but there
needs to be two people. And it's caused by so
many things. It would be caused by emotion, It can
be caused by a comment, something you said, something you
(05:34):
didn't say. A rupture can be big. It can be
something that you did that was huge, like you blew
somebody off when you were supposed to show it to
an event or you called them a name when you
were feeling some feelings. Or it can be small like
you didn't validate somebody when they really were like turning
(05:57):
towards you and looking for something, or you forgot to
put the dishes away when you told somebody you were
going to put the dishes away. There's a range the
word rupture. I think I get this like, whoa, that
sounds like a big thing. Yeah, it says break in conflict,
I would say, like it could be a crack.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
And I think even just a more general way to
put it is anything that leads to disconnection and whether
it's really disconnected or you know, we just weren't really
clicking in therapy today, things like that, I think that
counts as a rupture. And then anything that brings us
closer to connection I would count as in the repair.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Conrepair, which I'm so glad you said that because the
word it could lead to disconnection I think is important
because oftentimes the repairs as therapists, this is for me
that I have to make are things that I could
get by with not acknowledging, definitely, but the client's going
(06:59):
to clock that. And so there is this almost game
that they're playing where they have to guard what they
say or not share certain things, or it just puts
more work on the client to do, which leads to
the disconnection.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Yeah, and I think that also speaks to the way
that rupture and repair is different in the therapy room,
because when we are with a client, there is a
power imbalance, and if we choose to not say something,
because in action is a choice just as much as
action is, if we choose to not say something, that
might put the client in an awkward position because maybe
(07:37):
they haven't been in a situation where they are in
a position of disempowerment where they've said something versus you know,
if let's say something happens with a partner or a friend,
that's more of an equal playing ground, and you know,
really either of us could say something. So I think
that's another reason that it feels so different in the
(07:57):
therapy room.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
And if you are managing as the client, if you're
trying to get your therapist to like you, it's like,
I don't want to cause the conflict, and it's like
you weren't causing the complict right, right, And so there's
a pressure that they put on themselves and I think
as therapists, it's our job to manage that as best
we can. Is we are supposed to be creating a
(08:21):
safe space in a space that models healthy relationship. So
you already kind of touched on what a repair is,
but it's basically what you said, like any statement or
an action or something that tries to bring us closer
together and kind of almost breaks that tension that we
might be holding. It's anything that tries to bring the
(08:43):
disconnection back into connection, similar to an amends or what
some people might be more familiar with a form of
an apology.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
Yeah, And I think a big part of that is
recognizing what was my part in it, Because you know,
something like sorry you felt that way, sorry you took
it so personally, that's probably not going to lead to
more connection. That'll probably lead to definitely you did this right.
It's like, I'm not really a part of this. I
(09:13):
just happened to be here when things went wrong, but
it wasn't my fault. So I think that part of repair,
amend's apology, whatever you want to call it, is recognizing
what was my part in it, recognizing my actions, what
the effect was on you, and finding a way of
how can I make this better? You know going forward?
(09:35):
Is there something you wish I did? Is there something
you wish I didn't do? Here's my thoughts. I'm thinking
I should have done it this way. What do you
think about that, because that's going to really foster more
opportunity for connection versus if I had nothing to do
with it. How am I gonna mend the situation?
Speaker 1 (09:53):
You deal with that over there? Yes, it's like an
othering thing. As you were saying that, I was thinking,
what as a therapist comes up when I do something
that creates a rupture in the relationship with my client.
So when I notice myself whether it's I forgot something,
(10:13):
and I will be the first to say. If you're
listening to this and you're my client, you might be like, yeah,
I was waiting for you to get that. I have
messed up a lot of scheduling things. I have accidentally
charged people the wrong amount. I have walked into my
waiting room and there's three of my clients waiting and
(10:33):
I'm like, you guys are all here for me? Or
one of are you? Just hang yeah. So I have
had my share of those kinds of ruptures that I
do think matter a lot. Yeah, and then I have
my share of I like forgot a detail of a story,
(10:55):
which I can say a lot on whether that's a
rupture or not. Or I said I was going to
follow up about something I didn't, or I said I
was going to send them something and I didn't. So
those kind of all go into the same category. Then
there are the things where like I say something that
might have been hurtful, or I totally steamrolled the session
(11:17):
and was too hyper focused on something that wasn't even
what I should have focused on. Sometimes I noticed that
stuff in the moment. Sometimes after the session, I'm like,
where was my head? Yeah, I could give so many examples,
But going back to my original thought of what comes
up in me when I think about the first group,
I don't have as much resistance making a repair right
(11:42):
one because it's like, yeah, what are you going to
act like you didn't do it right?
Speaker 3 (11:44):
It's pretty cut and dry, like there's three of us.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
The other part, there's a part of my personality and
that people just know about, Like I can be forgetful
and it's not an excuse. I'm working on it. I
can be unorganized, and sometimes that stuff just happens, I
still can take responsibility for it, but it does I
think hit on anything that I think has to do
with me being good at my job. That's my own
personal feelings. Somebody else might be like, well you should
(12:09):
because that is part of your job. But for me personally,
those kind of feelings don't come up because I can
separate those.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
Yeah, it doesn't hit the ego as much. No, it's
much more surface level things like that.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Yes, where some other people might be like, if they
are more perfectionistic, that might be more of a yeah,
But for me, I'm like, oh, I don't really hold
that stuffs to high a standard. But the stuff where
I'm like, shoot, I was stuck in my own stuff
and totally misjudged what was going on and didn't offer
them the right kind of space, or I wasn't curious.
(12:41):
I kind of became more preachery, right, or I think
I self disclosed too much, and yeah, oh man, they
didn't not even that, like they don't need to hear that.
It's like I wasted their time, right, it wasn't helpful, right,
I was like, I think I was saying that for
myself exactly exactly those things are harder for me, and
I'm trying to think of what the actual feeling is,
(13:03):
but it's shame. I think I feel out of shame
because like I should know better, I should do better.
I do hold myself to that standard, and this says
something about me fully as a therapist versus a thing
I did. And I think there's also some fear there
that if I bring it into the room, they won't
(13:23):
trust me right, or maybe they didn't notice that I
was in my head, and if so, if I acknowledge that,
then they're going to think that maybe I'm not very
good at my job. Maybe they didn't notice that I
was in my head, and if so, if I acknowledge that,
then they're going to think that maybe I'm not very
(13:45):
good at my job.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
Yeah, definitely for me, I would say the number one
thing that I experience is fear. And I think I
have a lot of fear of like I don't want
to cause harm because in grad school they to us
about causing harm, so in my mind, I was like,
any moment you make the wrong move and someone's ruined
for life. So I know that comes up a lot,
(14:08):
but also the fear of just hurting someone's feelings, or
someone coming to you and entrusting you with that honor
of being a person they come to during a hard
time and falling flat and just not being what they
needed in the moment. So I have a lot of
fear of have I irrevocably damaged to this relationship? Have
I really altered our trust? Are they gonna think, Wow,
(14:31):
this person is bad at her job, Maybe I shouldn't
even see her. So that's a lot of the fear,
and making repairs with clients can be really, really scary,
but I have had such positive experiences with it because
literally never have my.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
Biggest fears been confirmed.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
So I remember one repair I did with a client
that it was like, you know, whatever night of the
week I had this client, I thought about it for
the next seven days and like start the session, I'm like, hey,
just wanted to address what kurd last week, and you know,
I like apologize, I say my part, and she was like, oh,
you're so sweet.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
I literally didn't even notice that happened.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
So I do think a lot for me, it's fear
because when I have these unrealistic thoughts that are very
rarely confirmed, that's usually a fear driven thing for me.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
I love your impersonation of you. Well, she doesn't actually
sound like no, I would never Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
My impersonations of people are and myself included, are usually.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
Very extreme amatic. Yeah, but I also love that you
just said like your client was like, oh what, I
didn't even notice that she really And so you mentioned
this earlier, I think before we started recording. But the
worst case scenario is what.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
Like as a therapist, like for you, what's the worst
case like causing harm?
Speaker 1 (15:53):
Yeah, yeah, okay, But what usually happens they either say
oh I didn't even notice that or.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
That or oh my gosh, thank you so much for
bringing that up. You know, it was on my mind,
but I didn't want to bring it up. And usually
all think they're thinking one thing, they're actually thinking something else,
and it's usually less extreme. But it was an area
where we weren't really connecting and there was, you know,
that that disharmony, that not really being on the same page,
(16:21):
and I thought it was probably due to me, but
it was actually, oh, you know, I was actually thinking
about this other thing, but I was scared to tell you.
And so that's another thing that you know, making repairs
and immens has taught me that you can really trust
your instinct, Like if something feels off, it probably is off,
and you're probably not the only one feeling it in
the room. So yeah, what I found is that when
(16:45):
I do it, either they haven't been thinking about it,
or it opens up this whole new conversation that we
wouldn't have covered if we hadn't experienced this momentary discomfort
between the two of us, because it's usually related to
other things.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
I know, how I said that one of my fears
is that the client won't trust me. This is very
interesting because what I think happens more often. Now. Nothing
is in absolutes here, so take all of this with
a grain of salt. But what I think usually happens,
at least for my experience, is when I see somebody
(17:20):
that I value or trust or look up to act
like a human being, be a human have humility, mess
up the sense of relief I get in my body.
I don't know how to describe. And one of my
favorite memories of being a client in therapy is when
a therapist did a little self disclosure and told me
(17:45):
a part of her life that was really missy, and
I was like, I don't know if I even said
this to her, or if I just said in my head,
I was like, Okay, I'm gonna be okay. Yes, I'm
gonna be okay because I respect you and I see
what you're doing and you don't have all this perfect
all the time, Like I don't have to do that either.
(18:07):
And one of my favorite things also as I was
becoming a therapist is seeing other therapists be a little messy,
seeing other therapists not always have a perfect outfit on
and didn't always have to be dressed to business casual
and they like there's something about like seeing a therapist
go to work in jeans that I was like, oh cool,
(18:27):
I don't have to like we can relax a little bit.
I don't have to like look this part, play, this part,
be this. And I think as a client on the
other side, outside of even being a therapist, it allows
me space to actually like have the courage to do
the things that I'm in therapy to do. And so
while I'm the therapist thinking well, if I show them
(18:49):
then I'm not perfect, they won't trust me anymore. That
goes against what we actually are doing and what we're
trying to help people see in themselves is like, you
can be a human being and people will still love you.
So when we mess up as therapists, I see now
it is one hundred percent uncomfortable and such an asset
(19:12):
to the therapeutic process. And I think it's just so
silly that at the same time I'm like, oh, like,
I think it's gonna be the opposite.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
Well, I think that really speaks to kind of the
lens of connection versus disconnection, for rupture versus repair, because
from that story, it sounds like possibly the most you've
ever felt connected with your therapist in a way because
it's like, oh, I can relate to this person, and
you know, hopefully we like our therapists, and it's like, oh,
(19:43):
I really like this person. I look up to them,
I feel connected with them, and they don't have it
all together and sometimes they put their foot in their
mouth and sometimes they mess up their calendar and that's okay.
And so if it's okay for this person that I trust, admire,
look up to, maybe it's okay for me. And so
it's part of that modeling as well as you know
(20:05):
that here and now experience of addressing something that came up.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Yeah, and I think having that happen in the more
beginning of that relationship. Later down the line, I saw
the therapist for like five years when there would be
things that I didn't really love that she said, I
had so much grace for that too. Yes, so she's
helping me lean into the therapy process as I think.
One thing that happens and I do see that happens
(20:30):
is and not even that it's happening within my clients
because I wouldn't know because they wouldn't come back, but
just hearing about stories from my friends and people around me,
is we judge so harshly, right, and we don't even
allow space for there to be a repair because we
see something we don't like in somebody, or we we
(20:50):
hear somebody we don't like from a therapist and we
just never go back. And I think that it is
a disservice because you could actually gain more from not
having a perfect therapist then looking for it.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
Yeah, that also makes me think of one of the
biggest markers I look for in clients but also for
myself to kind of gauge how I'm doing is.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
How rigid versus how flexible is their thinking?
Speaker 2 (21:17):
So do they have really rigid black and white all
are nothing thinking where this person needs either perfect or
you know, oh, they made one mistake, I can't trust them.
I feel like this comes a lot comes up a
lot in dating, Like someone will recognize one flaw in
a potential.
Speaker 3 (21:33):
Partner and they're like, oh, well no they're out.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
So to me, that's that's very rigid versus flexible. Can
they see the gray area? Can they see that, Wow,
I really like so much about this person and yet
they make mistakes. And I think bringing that gray area
into the room of you know, yeah, we have a
lot of sessions where we're so connected and a lot
happens and you feel hurt and you feel seen and
(21:56):
you feel understood, but not one hundred percent of the
time because it's not really possible for humans. So I
almost think that practicing that vulnerability of addressing hey, I
messed up. You know, you might not have seen me
as someone who can mess up, but I am and
I did.
Speaker 3 (22:12):
So can we.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
Talk about that here and know that just because it
was unpleasant doesn't necessarily mean it's bad or the relationship
has to end or the relationship has changed for the worse.
Because even in my experience making repairs or amends has
strengthened my relationships, whether it's a therapeutic relationship or a friendship,
(22:33):
or a partnership or a family member. I've noticed that
if we can make it through those areas of discomfort
and talk about it, then we can talk about other things.
We don't have to sweep things under the rug.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
And if we start with those little things too, yeah,
helpfully so if we never ever ever acknowledge any of
our little ruptures that we make, like the scheduling things,
or that I rolled my eyes when I should maybe
shouldn't have, or things like that, they're like the stairs
that lead to the safeness to be able to do
the big thing. Yeah, it opens up the door a
little bit. What I really want you guys to hear
(23:12):
is that as a therapist, as a human who is
a therapist, you are going to do things, yeah, that
cause rupture within your clients. We could have a list
that would take us three hours to read of what
that might. It's inevitable it's going to happen, and avoiding
it is only going to perpetuate the feelings and the
(23:34):
fears and the stories you have around that and leaning
into it is going to do one help you be
a better therapist to your clients, but also be a
more i think, authentic human being in your life outside
of that, because you're no longer holding yourself to a
standard that is not human to hold. And the stories
(23:55):
we have around I will lose credibility or people won't
like me, I won't have those probably aren't going to happen.
But if you lean into those stories and you don't
do them, those stories will become solidified. Yes, yeah, And
if there are people that write you off because you've
made a mistake and you try to make amends, like one,
(24:16):
that sucks. Yeah, that just really sucks. And two, it
doesn't mean that that was wrong for you to do
because living in the tension, sweeping things under the rug
and modeling that for your clients is hurting them more
than them not accepting that repair in them.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
Leaving definitely, And that makes me think about you know,
these repairs, like you said, they're between two people, but
they also really affect what's going on inside of us.
And so let's say in the scenario you'll really upset
someone and you make or your attempt to make a
repair and amends and you recognize your part in things,
and you recognize how your actions affected the person you apologize,
(24:58):
You say how can I do it differently? And they say, nope,
I want nothing to do with you. I think an
effect that does come out of that that's positive is
when you lay your head down at night, the most
recent memory is how you tried to make an amends
and you really tried to repair it. And so maybe
the next repair is can you forgive yourself for making
(25:18):
that mistake, knowing you did everything in your power to
try to write that wrong and you know, maybe learn
from it and don't do it again. But knowing that, wow,
I am someone who goes out of the way in
this really uncomfortable situation to try to repair this relationship
for the better. Maybe they're a person who's not in
(25:39):
a place to accept it, and that's okay. But what
I know about myself is I was vulnerable. I did
this thing that was really hard, And can I be
okay with just that because that's the only thing that's
in your control in that situation.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
And you can't do better than the best you can do. Yeah.
I think that is something that I come back to
is when I look back and cringe on some things
that happened in the early stages of me being a therapist.
I have to say I was doing the best I
could with what I knew. And the only reason that
I'm good at certain things that I'm doing now is
because I learned how to do them. It's not because
(26:13):
I was born that way. I think maybe some people might.
I'm gonna leave space for that. Some people might be
born good at conflict. I wasn't born good at some
of this stuff. They are muscles that I've worked and
so I think anybody who's listening to this and is like, oh,
but you're going to mess up at making the repair,
and you're going to have the times where you didn't
(26:33):
know what to say and you said the wrong thing.
And I tried to give this grace to everybody, not
just myself. But we can't do better than the best
we can do. And so if you could have done
a better job at that time, I think we would
have chosen to do that. And so it's more about
accepting our limitations.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
Yeah, And I think that brings it full circle to
that shame piece of we really spend a lot of
time beating ourselves up for not knowing how to do
things that we've never learn to do. And you know,
part of that can I forgive myself for being in
a place where I hadn't learned that yet, And now
that I've learned it, I know now I can do
something with it that I know I would never choose
(27:11):
to make a that same exact mistake again, So, you know,
kind of looking at the shame piece there of like,
how is beating yourself up for making that mistake serving you?
Speaker 1 (27:21):
It's probably probably not, probably not okay. And the last
thing I really want to touch on really quickly is
give an example of what this actually can look like,
because one thing I notice about any kind of conflict
is people really make it a lot bigger than it
needs to be. And I can just see somebody being like, okay,
almost kind of how you said you did it. Yes,
(27:44):
I'm gonna work on this all week, and I'm gonna
write this script out and I'm gonna sit down and
we're gonna spend the whole session talking about this thing
and end up being thirty seconds. Yes, And it does.
It can be as simple as hey, you know what
I was thinking about our last session and I realized
that I missed some things that I think might be
important to you, and so I wanted to start this
(28:04):
session off one saying sorry that I wasn't at the
top of my game in that moment. And two, is
there anything that you want to share from last session?
Are there things that I didn't allow you space to
go down, or there are other thoughts that you had.
I want to give you that space, and then they
can say, oh, I don't know what you're talking about,
or actually, yeah, I was feeling this, and just then
(28:28):
you get to give them that space.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Yeah. And I think in that example there's two really
important elements. One is being specific about what I did,
because you know, if we come in there and we're like, hey,
you know that thing happened last week? Really sorry, they're like,
what are you talking about? So that specificity of this
was my action. But then the other really important element
that I heard there was how did it affect you?
(28:52):
What was that experience like for you? What is it
like to discuss this now here, and so recognizing my
part but then not making it about me, making it
about our relationship, and what was the experience.
Speaker 3 (29:05):
Like for you?
Speaker 1 (29:07):
And one thing that I think is important, especially if
the client is like, oh, it wasn't that big of
a deal to offer. Okay, if in the future it
comes up, I want you to know it's okay to
bring it back in. Oh. I love that, because they
might have like, oh, gosh, I don't want I don't
(29:27):
want to talk about this, because maybe that's something they're
working on, is conflict and not wanting to be in that,
and so they might want to just like I don't
want to talk about that. You're fine, everything's fine. I'm
a people pleaser. And as you continue to do work
with them, it might be like, actually, now that I'm
allowing myself to have feelings that pissed me off, Yes,
so we can come back to it. It doesn't have
to be like bury, Oh.
Speaker 3 (29:47):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
It's the same thing, just opening the door a bit
so that you know, Hey, I'm comfortable talking about this
and I'm aware it happened, and I'm also happy to
wait until you're ready to talk about it. I'm happy
to move at your pace.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
I also think it's okay if you notice something as
a therapist, I mean, you use your own discernment with
the client and the experience. If you're not going to
see them for like a month. I think it's totally
cool to send them an email and say, hey, this
has been on my mind. I just want you to
know that I feel XYZ because of XYZ. If you
want to talk about this next session, I'm happy to.
(30:20):
If you want to hop on a phone call, I'm
happy to. Depending on the client, you might decide something different.
But I don't think we always have to wait until
the next session, because sometimes next sessions aren't next week. Yes,
and that can be just as much for us as
it is for them as it is for the relationship too.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Definitely, and I think just recognizing that something happened before
we give ourselves or the client an opportunity to talk
ourselves out of it, like, oh, maybe I'm overreacting, maybe
it really didn't even happen. Just having that validation of wow,
I actually did feel really off in that session and
my therapist is confirming that I didn't make it up.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
I think that's really impactful.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
Going back to the power differential, Yeah, especially we're in
this space where sometimes our clients really are like, will
you tell me what I'm feeling? And I'm like, don't.
I can't do that right, But to me that makes sense.
It's like, well, if they did it, and they're the therapists,
and so maybe it's supposed to be like that, and
I'm just like sensitive and I'm I need to work
on that myself, and I just acknowledging that, like it
wasn't you, it was me.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
Right, and just acknowledging the situation can be so reparative.
Like sometimes you know, I have this idea that a
repair is going to be I share my soliloquy of
here's my blundin, I'm so sorry and all these things,
and it's really just like, oh my, thanks for saying that,
and it's moved on, We're done. It's just really validating
(31:40):
and a lot of people I've learned from, you know,
my time as a therapist is that many people have
not been apologized to sincerely, you know, beyond the sorry
you took it that way, but recognizing something, bringing it
to the light and saying, hey, I'm sorry about this,
what was your experience with that? Sometimes it's their first
opportunity to really discuss that, and whether it's you know,
(32:04):
over email or in person, it still has I think
a really positive impact for the relationship.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
Yeah, So I hope this was helpful for you guys,
and I hope even if you aren't a therapist, it
gives you some encouragement or some a little dose of
courage for you to go out and acknowledge that making
a repair is not making the rupture worse. It's most
likely going to help mend that and bring you closer together.
And I can say I'm so thankful for a lot
(32:32):
of the ruptures I've had within I mean, in my life,
but also not all of them because they weren't all repaired,
but some of the ruptures I've had as a therapist,
they have brought so much healing to our clients. And
also I can think of a couple experiences where there's
been a little bit of a rupture and when I
(32:53):
acknowledge it, it so much was opened up. Yes, like
the whole dynamic change. It's where the real work began.
And I had to be in a space where I
could set my ego on the desk and then sit
in their featuir and so not the easiest thing to
do all the time, especially when you're a new therapist
(33:13):
and you're like, I'm gonna save everybody's life. Yeah, I
think I was talking to you and I was like,
none of my clients are ever going to relapse? Yes,
because I'm really good at what I am doing. And me,
mom never ever had a client before in my life.
And I'm like, but there's something about me that's special.
And I was like, okay, there's not.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
Yeah, there's a limit to what I could Okay, okay,
and we've seen the limits. Oh it's just one hour
for an entire week.
Speaker 3 (33:37):
Okay, you no, no, there is a limit there.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
Okay, Oh my god. Okay, Well that humble. If you
have any questions, feel free to send them Katherine at
UNI Therapy podcast dot com. If you have ideas for
more topics on this or it can be a couch
talks question too. It doesn't just have to go to
the therapist's series. Send it our way if you want
(33:59):
to follow us at You Need Therapy podcast and at
three Quarters Therapy, and you can follow me at kat
van Buren. I changed my name, oh fancy. I haven't
changed anything else, but I changed my answer name.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
Baby.
Speaker 1 (34:13):
So okay, And also, thank you Bridget for doing this.
You'll be back a million more times.
Speaker 3 (34:19):
Thank you for having me again.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
This is so fun, and I hope you guys have
the day you need to have. Bye.
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