Green growth is expensive. The global economy can afford it.

How do we keep climate action alive in a fracturing world? “Today we live in an age where we actually have the solutions– technologically, economically, financially speaking– but what we are not doing is acting on them,” Achim Steiner, head of the United Nations Development Program tells Akshat Rathi. In a conversation recorded at COP29, Steiner talked about how some countries– including Uruguay, India, Kenya, China, and Bhutan– are moving forward with innovative climate solutions even when international financing isn’t readily available. He also called on the developed world to find better ways to fund sustainable development.

Explore further:

• Past episode with climate finance expert Avinash Persaud about getting money to the places that need it
• Past episode with Achim Steiner about the role of the UN Development Program
• Past episode with science fiction writer Kim Stanley Robinson about the role of the United Nations 

Zero is a production of Bloomberg Green. Our producer is Mythili Rao. Special thanks this week to Sharon Chen and Jessica Beck. Thoughts or suggestions? Email us at [e-mail]. For more coverage of climate change and solutions, visit https://www.bloomberg.com/green.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to zero. I am Akshatrati. This week we think
about progress. I've been reporting on climate change for more
than eight years. It's not because I care about an

(00:22):
invisible gas in the atmosphere or about the mercury levels
in a scientist thermometer, but because of what climate change
could do to slow down the progress that humanity has
achieved over the past two centuries. And as I keep
reporting on what the world is doing to tackle climate change,
I keep coming back to the question of human progress.

(00:44):
At the start of twenty twenty five, with the staggering
fires in Los Angeles and a range of climate leaders
stepping down, it doesn't feel like progress. It feels like
regress or perhaps something darker. But it's a narrative that
we should be careful not to fall for. That's the
message from Akim Steiner, the head of the United Nations

(01:06):
Development Program, who I got a chance to talk to
at COP twenty nine in November. He said that progress
is happening, and there are many places in the world
where you can see it. We talked about many of them.
He's not denying that there are growing problems around the world,
but he says that he has also never felt more

(01:26):
optimistic about the human capacity to address them. This is
the second time Akim is on the show. Previously, he
made a passionate case for what humanity must do to
thrive on this warming planet. This time he shared what's
working and made the case for how to make it
work better. Akim, Welcome to the show.

Speaker 2 (01:57):
It's good to be back with you. Thank you Ashen.

Speaker 1 (02:00):
Now, since we spoke eighteen months ago, I feel like
the world has taken a turn for the worse. If
we look at broad metrics like the Human Development Index,
rich countries are doing better and poor countries are doing worse,
reversing a trend that for the last fifty sixty years
was where both rich countries and poor countries were progressing.

(02:24):
There's been the rise of populism all around the world.
Many elected leaders, even if they care about climate change,
aren't able to do very much. And then there are,
of course many elected leaders who are hostile to climate action.
So we speak at COP twenty nine, where yet again,
wor leaders are meeting country negotiators are coming together to

(02:47):
try and figure out how do we keep climate action
alive in what is a fracturing world. How are you
seeing things well.

Speaker 2 (02:58):
I think, first of all, letter acknowledge, we are confronted
with a degree of crisis, conflicts and wars, as you
have just mentioned, in a way that I think none
of us had anticipated, in certainly since nineteen forty five.
It is without precedent. We have well over one hundred
and twenty million people who are essentially forced to leave

(03:19):
their home, whether in their countries or to flee across
borders as refugees. We as undp work at the moment
in fifty three countries that are deemed crisis context I
through either economic or political civil strife or literally open
wars across borders. We face the opposite of what a
development program of the United Nations aspires to, namely to

(03:40):
help countries to build a way forward to develop their economies.
We are seeing development being destroyed. So I think, yes,
it is a very sobering moment in time. And we
see also the geopolitical polarization translating very quickly into domestic
polarization radicalization. So the cohesiveness of so socide is the

(04:01):
ability of governments to lead through tough times is being compromised.
Having said that, on the climate front, I would take
a slightly different view. We are meeting in twenty twenty
four at a moment in time where we can actually
look back over the last ten years, and we should
perhaps be astonished at what the world has accomplished. The
International Energy Agency estimates in twenty twenty four there will

(04:23):
be around three trillion dollars invested in new energy infrastructure.
Did you know that two out of those three trillion
will now be invested in renewables For a few years now,
Already total investment in new electricity generating infrastructure for renewables
is more than the combined total of oil, gas, coal,
and nuclear. So to those who continue to argue that

(04:46):
we are in a sense doomed if you want to
stay or committed to staying with the fossil fuel based
energy platform for the twenty first century, to them, I
would say you are patently wrong. What you're witnessing right
now is the product of years of the international community,
private sector, public sector science, technology converging on that challenge

(05:09):
of a ultimately decarbonized future. And it is happening already,
not only in energy, we now see it also happening
in mobility, the other major polluting sector, transporting goods across
the planet, whether by ship, by plane, by car, by trucks.
Even that is now rapidly shifting, with the country like
China this year having every second car sold in China

(05:31):
being an electric or hybrid vehicle. So I would say
on the climate response front, we are seeing remarkable things happen.
What you will also hear at every climate copp and
in the media right now is how far behind we are,
how late we are, But that should not negate the
extraordinary exponential progress that we're now seeing, and obviously here

(05:52):
in Baku the great challenges can we maintain that collective
interest and momentum of countries despite all their differences which
are very pronounced, and their abilities to act that we
continue to drive forward with the Paris Agreement, which has
proven to be remarkably resilient.

Speaker 1 (06:07):
I think that's a good reminder for this two track
world we live in where we will see climate progress
because a whole host of actions have been taken that
have momentum. I think the dark word turn is one
of whether that kind of momentum continues, because the gap
between where we need to be and where we are

(06:29):
does grow and climate impacts grow. So if you are
thinking about it from a United Nations perspective, where countries
like the United States, which contribute a fifth of the budget,
are electing a populist leader who does not believe as
much in a globalized world in the principles that created

(06:53):
the United Nations in the first place. How much of
a risk do you think Donald Trump is to the
progress that the United Nations enables the world.

Speaker 2 (07:02):
Well, let me first of all answer your question by saying,
as the United Nations official, we rarely try to speak
in hypotheticals, So let the newly elected administration take off
is let it in the sense set its priorities. But
clearly you are alluding to a number of policy positions
and also the track record of the incoming US administration

(07:24):
that clearly has voice skepticism and also different views on
energy pathways, for example. I think, as always in our democracies,
these are dramas that play out in real time. So yes,
we will see a lot of announcements. The fact of
the matter is that, yes, the US left the Paris Agreement.
The US rejoined the Paris Agreement. No one followed the

(07:47):
US leaving the Paris Agreement. In twenty seventeen and the
world welcome the US back. In the meantime, I think
we will also see in the United States. I think
what we are seeing in many countries acting on climate
change today is not any more focused on stopping to
do things that was very often where the science had
to awaken us and rattle us. If you want to say,

(08:09):
do you realize that with what you are emitting into
the atmosphere, you're essentially killing off economies in the future,
and you're making life on this planet extremely untenable, expensive
and economically very challenging. But in today's world, we're actually
far more focused on the green economy that is emerging
as an opportunity, the next strategy for industrialization, the next

(08:31):
strategy for how we power our economies mobility in the world,
but also looking at where jobs will come in the future,
just on the simple preoccupation that many governments have, how
do we create enough jobs? An investment in renewal energy infrastructure,
on average, creates two to three times more jobs than
one in the fossil fuel sector. If you essentially are

(08:52):
worried about your automotive industry, as Europe and parts of
North America are, ask yourself are you really going to
manage to survive in a world where electric mobility has
become not only affordable, ever cheaper and there are now
major producers that are able to supply the world market
because the US economy is large in monetary terms, but

(09:15):
the vast majority of the world's population lives outside the
United States. So are we going to see electric mobilities
succeed on the African continent with soon one on five
billion consumers so to speak? And is the old fossil
fuel based diesel petrol based automotive industry really going to
be a competitive proposition there? So, in domestic US policy terms,

(09:37):
I think industry investors markets will be looking carefully at
where does a policy ultimately undermine the competitiveness of a
US enterprise. And secondly, you also have in the United
States federalism, so state governments also represent a very significant
part of the mandate that shapes policies. You asked me

(09:59):
in terms of a United Nations perspective, we are obviously
very concerned principally because when a major economy is such
as the United States, takes a step back from an
international consensus, it will always have an impact. It will
slow things down, it will so distrust, it will create,
let's say, more room for skepticism. And let's also be

(10:20):
clear already now we are seeing signals where investors are
holding back hundreds of millions, if not billions, will ultimately
not be invested in the United States because the policy
and regulatory framework is ultimately signaling that you're not welcome,
and they will invest somewhere else because the demand is
growing exponentially around the world.

Speaker 1 (10:40):
The other thing that has happened when you look at
this turn in politics is one where climate or carbon
cannot become the top priority for almost any nation. The
top priority happens to be in most places, even in
rich countries, economic growth, prosperity, affordability, cost of living, and

(11:05):
those metrics have caused a right to return toward populism.
So when I think about what's happening in the world,
I am reminded of our previous conversation on how the
sustainable development goals are this unifying set of principles that
address multiple problems at the same time, where they address

(11:26):
prosperity while they address climate change. But we're also not
on track. You have said the world is likely to
miss the UN Sustainable Development Goals for twenty thirty because
there will be still plenty of poverty in twenty thirty,
So is there any movement to try and re engage

(11:48):
the world in the SDGs, Because it seems to me,
if climate change is to be tackled, it really has
to happen through a systemic lengs like the SDGs, rather
than focusing on carbon We.

Speaker 2 (12:01):
Perhaps begin by saying, particularly to those listeners who are
not so familiar perhaps with the twenty thirty Agenda as
it was called, and the Sustainable Development Goals, that these
are seventeen goals that in twenty fifteen the international community
agreed to collaborate on addressing. And to some, you know,
they want to argue that the STGs are some form
of political theorem or an ideology, they're not at all.

(12:25):
They're the most pragmatic way of looking at the conundrum
that we are now facing, as eight billion people soon
on this planet. How are we going to survive in
the twenty first century together when our planet is under stress,
Our societies are struggling with inequality and a lot of
political strife, and ultimately we still have generations of young
people who are leaving schools, in universities looking for jobs

(12:49):
in many countries, that equation is no longer delivering. So
the first thing that we need to accept is yes,
life is more complex in the twenty first century. And
to give you a very simple illustration of how we
interpret on the United Nations Development Program, when we go
and offer our support to developing countries, we don't tell
them or you must do something on SDG thirteen climate change.

(13:11):
We say to them, how can we help you with
your development? We are an organization that can help you
think about the future of your economy and then make
the investments today. Now we might do exactly the same project,
for instance, to address access to affordable and clean energy,
which is Sustainable Development Goals seven that automatically delivers on
SDG thirteen on climate change, reducing carbonation, but actually also

(13:34):
on STG one reduction elimination of poverty. You know, in
designing one project, we can address poverty, reduction, access to
clean and affordable electricity fundamental to any society, any nation
for its development, and reduce the risk of climate change.
It's a smarter way of thinking about development. Now. The
SDGs have, indeed, in terms of the targets and indicators

(13:57):
that were supposed to be met by the year twenty
thirty fallen way behind. But we've had a pandemic, we've
had wars. There are reasons why this is happening. Does
it make the goals somehow less relevant or correct? I
don't think so at all. On the contrary, Our challenge, however,
is that there is a second element to the STGs
that is extremely important, and in twenty fifteen in the

(14:20):
General Assembly Hall of the United Nations, in the presence
of the Pope, of the Secretary General of literally one
hundred and thirty heads of state and government, there was
also an acknowledgment that interdependence is something we have to
accept as a reality in today's world. Whether it's the pandemic,
whether it is cybercrime, whether it is the energy transition,

(14:41):
climate change. None of these challenges are really manageable within
a national jurisdiction alone. We depend on the actions of others,
including for example, in the world of digital and AI.
Those countries that have the weakest national legislation, institutions and
capacity to deal with cyber crimes cyberterrorism become their killers.

(15:02):
Heel to a essentially interconnected global economy, so our work
as the UN in some ways is more important than
ever because where countries may not be able to cooperate
directly with each other because they have big differences, they
can still agree that they have something common. In this September,
actually countries adopted the Pact for the Future in New York,

(15:22):
which was a reaffirmation that despite the fact that we
may not like our neighbor, we have to work together
on these core issues of our time.

Speaker 1 (15:31):
I spoke to a minister here at COP twenty nine
from a developing country who expressed frustration with international institutions.
They were at two layers. One where as a developing
country they have access to fossil fuels, but they are
not getting any funding to tap those fossil fuels, even
though their development indexes very low, because the international community

(15:53):
or international funding bodies have decided no. The only investments
that can go are in clean energy. So if you
want a gas power plant that's on your own, you
need to find the money for it. The other frustration
was the sheer number of international funds being created. So
we had the Loss and Damage Fund. There is going
to be the Global Environment Facility. There is the new

(16:16):
target that will be agreed on at COP twenty nine,
which will be hundreds of billions of dollars. Multilateral development
banks have to figure out how to give that money out.
And for a country, it is becoming hard to realize
even if there is money to be accessed, how to
access it? How many rules do we have to follow?
Is there room for the UN to actually simplify things

(16:39):
for developing countries? And what about sometimes the need for
fossil fuels in the very places where development is still
far far behind the world average.

Speaker 2 (16:51):
Well, let me first of all respond to the role
of international institutions. It's a little bit of a chicken
and egg situation. And yes, international institutions can also be
complicating factors. They are governed by broad constituencies, lowest common
denominator consensus, the extreme attention that is put on fiducial

(17:13):
integrity and accountability. Yes, if we were a startup, if
we were an NGO, we could operate very differently. But
we're not. We are custodians of literally billions of dollars
of taxpayers money. Therefore, the United Nations the international financial
institutions are by definition a garanto or fiduciary integrity even
then we also run into problems and difficulties. I mean,

(17:35):
there are criminals, there are those who will try and
cheat HS. We make mistakes, but that is not I
think the biggest risk. The biggest risk is that member states,
because of the sometimes competing interests but also sometimes very
particular interests, create many of these structures. Why do we
have a Global Environment Facility followed by a green Climate fund,
followed by a fund to address laws and damage well

(17:57):
in part because countries are trying to also to address
particular needs. Take the world of developing nations right now,
we have emerging economies in the China, Middle Eastern nations,
some of the wealthiest nations in Asia and Latin America
that are middle upper middle income countries, alongside, for instance,
small island developing states hyper capita GDP, but extremely vulnerable

(18:18):
and can lose a third of the GDP with one
hurricane in eight hours, the least developed countries. We have
now this phenomenal investment in renewables, but do you know
that last year only two percent of that total trillions
of investments actually landed on the continent of Africa, where
the most people without access to electricity live. Today so

(18:38):
there is also a kind of public policy hedging that happens.
And the product of this over years is that we
get a very broad range of funds and platforms. I
think it is time to review them, to consolidate them.
The G twenty, in fact, took the initiative under the
Brazilian presidency and already with India before to ask the question,
can we streamline the finance? The problem is right now

(19:01):
here in Baku. What you see is, however, the first
litmus test. Is there enough trust to even believe that
we are ready and willing to invest and co invest
enough to work together on climate change? Or are we
even debating what is an adequate level of investment If
that is not established, and it's difficult to do the
more difficult job of reforming the international financial architecture, as

(19:24):
the secret General of the UN has repeatedly called for
over the last three years, because we live in a
world where there is more than enough money and wealth
in our financial system, but it is concentrated in one
part of the world that is struggling to find ways
to invest. While the majority of the world's population is
desperately looking for capital, we can't access it and Ultimately,

(19:47):
this is an imbalance that we need to address.

Speaker 1 (19:55):
After the break, Akim tells me where he's seeing promising
climate leadershi on the global stage. And if you've been
enjoying this episode, please take a moment to rate and
review the show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. It helps
other listeners find the show. So are there examples of

(20:18):
specific countries over the last eighteen months where you see
some of this progress actually playing out in the right way?

Speaker 2 (20:26):
Oh, I can give you dozens. This is why I
sit here deeply traveled by how we have fallen behind
in terms of addressing the science of climate change. But
I am actually very optimistic about our capacity to do so.
You see, twenty years ago we face challenges that we
thought we had no solutions for. Today we live in

(20:47):
an age where we actually have the solutions technologically, economically,
financially speaking of what we are not doing is acting
on them. Just to give you a simple example, when
you invest hundreds of billions of dollars in subsidies for
fossil fuel extraction, then don't be surprised if it seems
that somehow fossil fuels are cheaper at the pump for

(21:07):
the consumer. But who is paying those subsidies the very
same consumers, who are the taxpayers. The IMF estimates that
the total impact of fossil fuel subsidies somewhere in the
range of trillions of dollars right now. But you ask
me for positive examples, I will give you just three
or four. Let me take you to Uruguay, for example,

(21:27):
not one of the world's wealthiest countries at all. Together
with Uruguay, UNDP and the Inter American Development Bank work
with the Ministry of Finance on bringing a sustainability link
performance bond to the financial markets. Uruguay raised over one
point five billion dollars with an interest rate tied to
its emissions performance and its forest deforestation performance. Now, these

(21:49):
are instruments that are raising literally billions of dollars on
the markets today. So we see the financial markets moving.
Let me jump to India for a moment. India already
has an installed capacity renewables of around two hundred gigabots
right now, few people realize that India in the next
four and a half years will add another three hundred
and fifty gigawards, not megabots, gigawards have installed renewable electricity

(22:13):
generating capacity. This is unprecedented in human history, even faster
than China's investment was. And we can then go to
a country such as Kenya, a classic developing economy on
the African continent today producing well over ninety percent of
its electricity with renewables, and we can go to Namibia,
where a green hydrogen investment is now happening again signaling

(22:35):
how Namibia can leverage its enormous, ultimately endless supply of
energy through solar and wind to produce something that the
world economy will need in the coming year, is named
the green hydrogen to decarbonize the so called heavy to
abatement high energy consuming sectors. And I could go on.
This is all happening before our very eyes, and it
is transforming, let's say, the pathway towards a net zero future.

Speaker 1 (23:00):
Within that one specific constraint that we talked about the
last time debt crisis, which is affecting developing countries hugely
after the pandemic. Are there reason which developing countries have
managed to deal with some of these problems? Obviously they've
not gone away, but are there potential solutions like the
Urogoaz sustainability link ons that are coming to help deal

(23:24):
with what is a real fiscal crisis for many countries.

Speaker 2 (23:28):
Well, the answer is yes and no. For the wealthier countries,
this notion of a soft landing that has often been
invoked after the pandemic, the high inflation, high interest rate
phase is clearly beginning to come down to more normal
economic and financial market times. But no, for many of

(23:48):
the developing countries, it has gotten even worse. And this
is a great tragedy, not only in terms of the
impact it is having on people. When you know dozens
of developing countries today have to their health and education
budgets in order to just service the interest that has
exploded in terms of cost of their foreign debt. This

(24:09):
is ultimately undermining the very essence of development, which is
to invest in your people human capital. Secondly, let us
be very frank the G twenty has looked after itself barely,
but it has and has not tackled the issue of debt,
particularly for least developed countries and for those that are

(24:30):
most indebted in our global economy today. So many of
the instruments have been very slow and frankly, we are
seeing many developing countries today not able to invest in
their future because they simply haven't got access to money.
And we want next year all the signatories to the
Convention of the Paris Agreement to come to the Brazilian

(24:51):
cop in biling with new national strategies, higher levels of ambition.
But for many of these countries, all we're offering them
is please do more, do it quicker, and you can
borrow some money from us, Thank you very much. I
can hardly pay the interest on the loans I already have,
and now you ask me to borrow more money. It
just doesn't add up. This is why this whole finance
discussion needs to become a lot more honest. And let

(25:14):
us also be clear when we talk about international climate finance,
we're not talking about a taxpayer in Lancashire, in the UK,
or I don't know, in Sicily, in Italy or in
Ohio and the United States subsidizing economies such as China
or India. They are moving forward with their green economy
investments out of their own resources. And I think one

(25:36):
of the big misperceptions in today's world is that when
we talk about one hundred billion dollar climate finance, are
now one point three trillion. That's public but also private investment,
that this is all somehow taxpayers money from the North.
Few people realize that China is investing hundreds of billions
of dollars a year off its own taxpayer revenue to
make the green transition happen. Many developing countries are using

(25:59):
their resources to invest in climate change action, exceeding by
far what the wealthiest nations are willing to put on
the table as a co investment.

Speaker 1 (26:08):
It's always a joy talking to you because you come
with examples and you show progress as it's happening while
acknowledging the big challenges that we face. One thing that
has been missing for me has been trying to find
leaders who can speak to that inspiration for the larger public.

(26:28):
You know, last time, when Donald Trump was elected, there
was a bulwark of leaders here in Europe or in
Asia that stood up and said we will take the
baton on of multilateralism of climate change. Those leaders aren't
speaking up or do not sit in power today. But

(26:49):
if you were to think of leaders that people should
be listening to at this moment, who would they be?

Speaker 2 (26:55):
To your listeners, I would say, sometimes we may not
hear the voices of lead because we are listening to
something else. We're listening to a lot of noise. Right
here in Bako yesterday i attended the launch of a
G zero platform. Four countries are stepping forward as the
first nations that are carbon neutral or carbon negative as economies,

(27:16):
and they're saying we have done this, We are an example,
and we also look to the world to work with us.
They are the Kingdom of Bhutan, Surinam, Panama and Madagascar.
Now most people may not even necessarily be able to
pinpoin where those countries are on the map, but they're
all over the global context, so it's not one particular
corner of the world. And you have His Majesty the

(27:37):
King of Bhutan, the President of Surinam yesterday here the
Prime Minister of Bhutan in fact leading the session yesterday.
That's an example of leadership. Do we celebrate that leadership?
Do we even reward it? Do we support it? No,
we take it for granted. But these are people who
have taken their countries through extraordinary change. The renewables investment

(27:58):
programs of India did not fall from heaven somewhere. They
were the deliberate outcome of a series of policy decisions
where India has bet its own energy future on a
rapid transition towards cleaner energy. But let me also talk
to other leaders who are actually here in Baku, Prime
Minister Starmer of the UK putting forward a remarkably robust

(28:22):
new national climate strategy, committing the UK and recommitting it
also to its financial pleasures that its preceding government had
almost walked away from. We saw Brazil, the next host
of the Conference of the Parties next year, putting forward
a national climate strategy with ambitions built into its own
trajectory as a developing economy that are remarkable. What you're

(28:45):
seeing over the last few years is that the leadership
on climate action is rapidly shifting towards the developing world
because for many of them, building the next generation of
their economies infrastructure, energy industries, mobility, infrastruction structure is essentially
one that is far more likely to succeed in a
green economy scenario than in a twentieth century fossil fuel

(29:08):
based scenario. Europe. Final example, through the European Parliament, because
let's also look to our parliamentarians have past legislation that
commits Europe to a ninety percent emission reduction pathway in
less than sixteen years by twenty forty. So we have
a lot of leadership out there. It's just a pity

(29:28):
that some have nothing better to do than to denigrate it,
to talk it down, or maybe something to just take
a step back and say, it's not only about me,
it's amazing what you have done. Let me join you,
because together we will get twice as far. It sounds
so banal, but in all the technocratic language, in all
the dynamics, in all the chessboard that is playing out

(29:49):
at the conference of the parties, someone's going back to
first principles can be immensely clarifying.

Speaker 1 (29:55):
Find better stories because they do exist.

Speaker 2 (29:58):
Thank you for plenty of them, and ever more, thank you.

Speaker 1 (30:12):
Thank you for listening to Zero. And now for the
sound of the week. Those are the sounds of temple
bells in Bhutan. If you liked this episode, please take
a moment to rate and review the show on Apple
Podcasts or Spotify. Share this episode with a friend or
with someone who is carbon negative. You can get in

(30:34):
touch at zero pod at Bloomberg dot Net. Zero's producer
is Mike Lira, Bloomberg's head a podcast is Sage Bowman
and Head of Talk is Brendan Nuna. Our theme music
is composed by Wonder Late Special thanks to Sharon Chan,
Shewan Wagner and Jessica beg I am Aksha Darati back
so