July 12, 2024 • 28 mins
At the Bloomberg Green Festival, Akshat Rathi sits down with voting rights advocate Stacey Abrams and Ari Matusiak, who leads the nonprofit Rewiring America. Together, Abrams and Matuisiak are trying help middle and low-income families access the tax breaks that can help them affordably electrify their homes. They discussed why household emissions are such a big deal, how to connect existential questions about the future of the planet to kitchen-table decisions, and whether Joe Biden is still the right Democratic candidate for 2024.
Explore further:
- Past episode with Bill Gates about what another Donald Trump presidency could mean for green investments
- Past episode with Bill Gates about the passage of the Inflation Reduction Act
- Past episode with political scientist Leah Stokes on whether the US could become a global climate policy leader
Zero is a production of Bloomberg Green. Our producer is Mythili Rao. Special thanks this week to Kira Bindrim and Matthew Griffin. Thoughts or suggestions? Email us at zeropod@bloomberg.net. For more coverage of climate change and solutions, visit https://www.bloomberg.com/green.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to zero. I am Akshatrati. This week, can Joe
Biden electrify America? I'm in Seattle this week at the
Bloomberg Green Festival. It's been a hectic few days of conversations, demonstrations,
(00:25):
experiences all to shape the future of the planet. There
was science, arts, technology, culture, and real solutions that you
can see, touch, feel, and even taste. But it all
happened in a week where one thing on everyone's mind
is whether or not Joe Biden can continue as the
(00:45):
Democratic Party's presidential candidate following a series of shaky public appearances.
So even as we had rich conversations about the environment,
politics was unavoidable. You know, this is an existential challenge.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
It's the difference between a chance to arrest this horrific
train coming down the tracks or letting it run over us.
That's the issue in these federal elections.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
The climate stakes of this election could not be higher.
That was a cast of top Democrats, Gina McCarthy, who
was the former White House National Climate Advisor, Washington State
Governor Jay Insley, as well as Sally Jewell, former Secretary
of the Interior. McCarthy, who once was the Environmental Protection
(01:37):
Agency administrator had a little more to say about whether
Joe Biden should stay in the race. She suspected he
himself was reconsidering whether to run, but no matter what
his decision, she said, he had already earned a place
in history as America's climate president. The question of whether
Biden's legacy on climate is enough was on my mind too.
(02:01):
That matters for America's decarbonized future and for voters weighing
up their choices this November, and it is something I
got to ask voting rights advocate and former Georgia governor
candidate Stacy Abrams. One of Stacy's jobs is with the
nonprofit called Rewiring America. It is led by Obama administration
(02:23):
veteran Ari Matusiak. Rewiring America has been focused on getting
Americans to reduce their household emissions, and a lot of
their work centers around making sure people know about the
tax breaks in the Inflation Reduction Act and how that
can make things like heat pumps and electric vehicles more affordable. Arie,
Stacy and I talked about why household emissions are such
(02:46):
a big deal, how to connect existential questions about the
future of the planet to kitchen table decisions, and of
course we talked about Joe Piden and just a note,
this was recorded live in Mccawhall in Seattle. As you'll hear,
it was a lively audience, small children and all. Welcome
(03:19):
to zero and welcome to the Bloomberg Green Festival. Now, Ari,
let's start with a simple proposition. When you think about
climate solutions, one way to think about them is that
we need to electrify more and more of our lives,
and we need to produce that electricity as carbon free
as possible, ideally fully carbon free, very soon. It's not
(03:43):
going to solve all our problems, but it gets us
damn close. So could you talk us through what rewiring
America's biggest successes have been because you were trying to
get electrification to people.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Yeah, well, thank you so much for having me and
for hosting this conversation. I think the thing that is
really not known to people about the damn close part
is that forty two percent of our energy related emissions
come from basically five decisions that we make at our
(04:17):
kitchen tables, maybe six kind of cars you drive, how
you heat air and water in your homes, how you
cook your food, dry your clothes, maybe whether you get
solar on your rooftop. That's forty two percent of our
energy related emissions. Those kitchen table decisions are really, for
the most of us, the largest climate impact we will
(04:39):
have in our lives, or have the opportunity to have.
And so there is this really incredible opportunity to shift
the locust of agency and power to the kitchen table.
And what we've been trying to do with Rewiring America
is tell that story and then empower households in those
kitchen table decision through a combination of policy incentives and
(05:04):
tools that they can use to actually make those decisions
the easy ones to go forward with and get the
benefits of in the process.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
And so far, what have been your biggest successes.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Well, it's not our success alone, certainly, but the Inflation
Reduction Act was something that we were really involved with
in shaping because what we recognized was that the upfront
costs of these better electric machines are too expensive still
for too many households, and so the Inflation Reduction Act
has a lot of these kitchen table incentives for people
(05:36):
that could be as much as a half a trillion
dollars going two households over the next decade, and we
were very involved in shaping that.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
And Stacey now working on energy and environment issues is
not something that's new to you. It goes as far
back as your senior thesis in college, I understand, and
of course it's featured in your work in public office
and your campaigns. Now with Rewiring America for over a year,
what are the biggest barriers that you still see are
(06:06):
remaining in trying to get people to recognize that electrifying
their lives is beneficial to them, even before it is
beneficial to the planet.
Speaker 3 (06:15):
I think the challenge is not convincing people it's beneficial.
It's convincing people it's accessible. Because for the low income,
moderate income families that are facing this challenge, they hear
the specter of climate action, but they often see the
behavior of people who are wealthier, who can afford to
make choices, and so often it feels like sacrifice. It
(06:38):
doesn't feel like progress. And I think the important piece
of the work Rewiring has done, the incredible investment that
comes from the Inflation Reduction Act is that it shifts
the conversation from one of can I afford it? To
how do I get it. When people get to make
decisions that benefit their lives, they are much more likely
to do so. We like getting stuff, and people like
(06:59):
being cooler in the summer, they like being warmer in
the winter, they like their power bills going down. And
what we have to do is actually create the space
for them to understand that's doable. For the first time,
you mentioned that I have been working on these issues
for a very long time. Most people aren't aware that
that's part of my portfolio. But I grew up in
southern Mississippi. I grew up near cancer Alley in Louisiana.
(07:23):
I grew up in petrochemical corridors where communities were often
not served and where it seemed impossible for progress to happen.
I lived in a community in college where the duxtaposition
of where I went to school and where my older
sister went to school was very distinct. And so a
large part of this is just letting people know what's available,
(07:43):
what's possible, and that they can afford it. Because this
is a moment to our's point about it being a
kitchen table issue. Every kitchen table can solve this problem
because there's money to help you, and so part of
the work of rewiring. In fact, the core of rewiring
is helping people understand all of the money that's available,
all of the tools that are available, and then shifting
(08:03):
their belief system to know that they get to benefit.
They just have to believe it's possible.
Speaker 4 (08:08):
And Ari, you talked about the Inflation Reduction Act.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
It's a big bill. It does many things. How specifically
have you been able to use what the IRA has
put out for the work that you've done with Rewarding America.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
Yeah, Well, one of the first things that we did
was we built a calculator for households to access to
understand what they were eligible for in the Inflation Reduction
Act itself. We've had almost a million households access that
over the past two years, and we haven't spent a
dollar advertising for that because, to Stacy's point, people like
(08:44):
getting stuff, but they don't know how to navigate. And
so the first thing that we have done is really
start investing in these tools to help make that kitchen
table conversation personal and accessible, to Stacy's point, for every
household in the country. That's really important because most people
don't think about this stuff on a day in and
(09:05):
day out basis. I work with a lot of people
who are climate geeks. I still haven't met someone who says,
I can't wait for the new model of the water
heater to come out because I'm totally upgrading extrame. That's
not a conversation people have, at least not most people.
And so we've been really focused on creating that sort
of the access points and the on ramps for households.
(09:26):
And then the other thing that we did that Stacy
and I have been working on over the last year
and change is that we put together a coalition to
apply for something called the Greenhouse Gas Reduction Fund, and
we were selected for two billion dollars to really create
a way forward for low and modern income households in
communities so that every kitchen table is able to participate
(09:50):
and afford these improvements.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
Now, the Inflation Reduction Act came up very first answer,
and it's crucial because none of this happens without policy,
and policy doesn't happen without politics. Now, on so many issues,
including on climate, there is a clear choice at the
twenty twenty four election, and Stacy, you said it, the
(10:14):
choice is not Donald Trump, but that means we must
face the inescapable question, which is then who? And you
wrote an op ed yesterday saying that it must be
(10:36):
the Democratic nominee for president must be Joe Biden. Why
is that he is our president?
Speaker 3 (10:41):
He is our nominee and he will be president again
if we do the work necessary to make it so.
But let's be clear, we would not have the Inflation
Reduction Act. We would not have the billions of dollars
that are being poured into communities of color, into low
income communities, into rural communities of American communities. But for
President Joe Biden, we know that, we know absolutely that
(11:08):
these dollars will be transformative in Georgia. One of the
ways Rewiring has been incredibly prescient in thinking about this.
We are doing demonstration projects around the country in Milwaukee
and Gresham, Oregon, in Tulsa, Oklahoma, in East Point, Georgia,
and in Desoda, Georgia. There's a lot of Georgia. I
get to be a part of it, So there's a
lot of Georgia. But in DeSoto, Georgia, we're actually making
(11:29):
certain that every household that wants something is getting the
investment of an upgraded appliance. We have a woman who
was living without running water in her home because she
couldn't afford to upgrade her water heater. It had rested out.
And she's an elderly woman, Mildred Carter seventy five, and
was just going across the street to her neighbor's house
(11:50):
to get water because of the moneies that are going
to come in. Because of the work of rewiring, she
got a new water heater. There is a family that
was living in a double white trailer without central air
with kids, I mean three generations of families. They now
have central air for the first time in their lives.
This is life changing work that would not be possible
(12:12):
but for President Joe Biden. So my commitment to his
reelection is that not only do I know what he
is doing, I know what the other guy said he
promises to do, which is to dismantle, disassociate, and destroy
what is possible for the future. And so for me,
there is no choice but to make certain that we
reelect Joe Biden.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Right, And and we are asking these questions because of
the poor performance at the first presidential debate. Now you
say that any alternative, say you go to an open convention,
is likely to lead to a divide among Democrats, and
you say that the focus should be among Democrats, not infighting,
(12:54):
but trying to defeat Trump. Any other nominee, and I
say in quotes won't have According to you, the campaign
infrastructure resources are significant national record, but sounds like Kamala
Harris has all of that. So if Joe Biden does
step down, would you support Harris to be the nominee.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
I don't do hypotheticals when we are three and a
half months from an existential crisis in this country. We
have a president who will become the nominee in mid August,
who will become the next president if we do the
work between now and then. I support the Biden Harris administration.
But there is one person who is the nominee for
(13:36):
president for the Democratic Party, and that is Joe Biden,
and that is who I support.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
Right, So I appreciate that answer. Now, one of the
things that.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
You've wasn't enough, though.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
Not my first rodeo.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
Come on, you've been crucial in turning the vote out
in Georgia in twenty twenty, got enough votes out to
turn the state blue to ensure that the Senate has
a Democratic majority, and you said you don't do hypotheticals, but.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
No, I didn't say ever, but go ahead. But if
I write books, so I think hypotheticals all the time.
Just depends on the situation. But let's see if you
can reach that, sir.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
If Biden stays on poles, show that currently people aren't
as excited about going to vote for Joe Biden, are
you worried that there won't be enough of a turnout
to be able to defeat Donald Trump.
Speaker 3 (14:50):
People don't care about your politics. They care about their lives.
They vote based on their needs. We need a president
who has demonstrated, for the last three and a half years,
an assiduous commitment to saving our planet and more importantly,
saving our lives. We need someone who has demonstrated through
word and deed, the understanding of the crisis that we
(15:12):
face in our environment, and also has a detailed and
dedicated plan. The work of winning an election is not
simply who is running. It's not just what's on the ballot.
It's who's in the booth. And to get people into
the booth, you have groups like Rewiring America, a nonpartisan
organization that exists to tell people what's possible when people
(15:33):
know I can get an HVAC system so that I
can stay cool in the sweltering heat of Seattle, which
is a strange when they know that in the winter
when delivered fuels start to increase in cost, and they
now have an upgraded system that lets them stay warm
in the winter without having to sacrifice healthcare for energy cost.
(15:56):
That's the choice that we're asking people to make president
by is the right person to be on the ballot.
But the work of winning an election is about who
you get to show up to the booth, and that's
the work of everyone who cares about the future of
this country. And so I'm not concerned. I'm committed, and
our job is to convince every person who shares that
value system and wants to see that future to show
(16:17):
up and do the same work and get more people
to vote.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
I had the honor of serving in the Obama White House,
and in twenty twelve, we had economic data that showed
that everything was getting better, and when we did polling,
people felt like it wasn't getting better in their day
to day lives. And today inflation numbers came out showing
(16:49):
that it's easing, setting up an opportunity for the FED
to do an interest rate cut, and so we talk
about that in terms of macroeconomic issues, but at the
kitchen table it is a different story. And the thing
that just to connect the dots here, the reason why
this is very important to our political future and very
important to our climate future, is that electrification and making
(17:14):
these decisions is anti inflationary to people's day to day
lives because they trade out a five hundred dollars bill
for one hundred dollars bill. But it's also anti inflationary
because the most inflationary force in the history of humankind
is climate change.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
So one of the things that has been surprising to
me as somebody who lives in the UK watching the
Inflation in Reduction Act play out. There are so many
things that are being done that are going to help
reduce emissions, reduce inflation, reduce the bills that people pay
for energy while making decobonization happen, but they've still not
been appreciated by people. People don't know the Inflation Reduction
(17:52):
Act most people, right, And you said, you have this
tool that has gone on to a million people, million
households that have used this tool to try and figure
out how to electrify their homes. There are one hundred
million households in America, and so there is still a
gap between doing which is important and showing to people
what you have done, because that is what will get
(18:13):
the vote to turn out. So how are you working
to bridge that gap? Because that gap is very big.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
It's big, and it's important, and it is also common sense.
Most people don't think about what's happening in Washington day
in and day out. Most people don't read seven thousand
page legislative texts as compelling as they might be, and
you know, people are just trying to make do. And
(18:40):
then the other part of this is that we live
in a status quo environment that is a fossil fuel environment.
So when your furnace conks out or when your water
heater stops working and you need to figure out what
to do again, you don't think about that stuff on
a day in and day out basis. So when you
call somebody to go replace it or fix it, what
(19:01):
they tend to do is do a like for like swap.
So the thing that has pipes in your house that
connects to the pipe sticking out of your wall. When
the contractor comes with their van, they have a thing
that has pipe sticking out of the back to connect
to the pipe sticking out of your wall. And if
at that point in time you say, I heard something
on a podcast about a heat pump, what's that like?
(19:22):
That's not a great time to have that conversation. And
so we need to get we need to cut through
and get to people about the benefit and the value
to them, but also get the friction out of the
process so that it's easier. And that is what we
are incredibly focused on, and the way we think about
it is that our job is to make it easy
(19:42):
for you, and the you in that phrase is anybody
in the one hundred and twenty nine million households in America,
And for for you, it is going to be different
based on where you live, what your circumstances are, and
we have to make it easy for the you and
that context to be able to make to move forward.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
After the break, Stacy and Aery talk about the policies
they most hope to see in another Biden term and
what they anticipate would happen under another Trump term. And
by the way, if you've been enjoying this episode, please
take a moment to rate and review the show on
Apple Podcasts and Spotify. It helps other listeners find it.
(20:34):
Stacy say, the big question that we are grappling with
right now, we move on from that. Joe Biden remains
presidential nominee. What do you think the next three months
should look like to get the vote out for Joe Biden.
Speaker 3 (20:46):
So it's conversations like this. It's explaining to the people
who understand what's at stake what they can do. It's
connecting the dots between the pain they feel and the
opportunity to solve that pain. That's what canvassing is, that's
what organizing is, that's what campaigning is. And so we
have a lot of work to do. To your point,
(21:08):
not as many people know about it because it's shocking,
but in government things move slowly, and so even though
the Inflation Reduction Act pasted in twenty three, it has
taken time to deploy that much money. Those dollars are
now coming online. So part of the responsibility for anyone
who is of good conscience is to share this information
(21:29):
when you're on social media, talk about what you know.
People get most of their information about kitchen table decisions
from people that they know, and so part of our responsibility.
One of the ways we not only proselytize about the IRA,
but proselytize about climate the climate future we can have
is by convincing average folks who are voters to talk
(21:51):
to people who may not be voters, who may not
think they need to be voters, but who want their
lives to be better, and they need to understand that
if you vote, you get this. If you don't vote,
you lose this. And right now people don't know what's
at stake. And so that's the next three months, connecting
the dot between what's at stake and what is possible.
And we have one person who is making possibility real,
(22:14):
and that's the person that we're going to support for president.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Now we have seen a term of Donald Trump in power.
If he does come to power again, and you know,
you've been quite forthright about what it could mean for America.
What is at stake, not just in climate, but beyond it.
You know, in the pop ed you say, former President
Donald Trump has made it clear his plan is to
(22:38):
be dictator on day one. How does your work change
if Trump returns to White House one?
Speaker 3 (22:45):
We do the work to make certain that doesn't happen,
and part of that is to explain what's possible under
the current term or the just complete a term. In
the Supreme Court, the Chevron defferences decision means that the EPA,
the Clean Water Act, all of the work to protect
our climate could be vitiated with the stroke of a pen.
(23:07):
A lesser known decision was the Snyder decision, which says
that it's now legal to bribe local officials, that the
federal law that precludes that bribery is now permitted. Well,
if you're looking at public utility commissions that are making decisions,
if you don't have oversight and they can get money,
I invite all of you to engage in one hypothetical
(23:27):
of what could possibly happen. And so I think our
responsibility is to, as Aari said, we've got to connect
people to these moments. The way you preclude a Trump
administration is by doing the work to re elect the
current administration. But more importantly, we've got to take ourselves
(23:47):
out of the conversation of what's happening in Washington and
take it back to what can happen in my life
if there's the removal of a regulatory body that says
that you shouldn't have to breathe in dirty air. If
there is the removal of a regulatory body that tells
companies they can't pollute where you live, that's a real
consequence and it's not a hypothetical. The law now permits
(24:13):
that to happen, and it is only those who are
in power who can stop it and make it not so.
And so our job is to absolutely ensure that we
explain what could happen, and we also explain how you
stop it from becoming. So it's not rocket science, but
it is hard work and the work of telling people.
(24:35):
This is the work that Rewiring is doing, not through
the lens of partisan decision, but through the conversation of power,
because ultimately that's what all this is about. This is
a power dynamic, and we need to decide who has
the power, us or them, And by us, I mean
the people who need to be able to take care
of themselves, their families, their lives, and their communities. And
(24:58):
if we believe that we have that p then we
can make the choices that makes that power reel.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
So our final question, see Joe Biden does get elected
and twenty twenty five, you have a second term. You
were gunning for the Infation Reduction Act in the first term.
What kind of big, major policy would you want to
see in the next term that could make electrification easier.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Well, it's not just at the federal level, it's across
the country. Stacy mentioned PUCs to engage in the hypothetical.
If you have a machine that you can buy that
is three to five times more efficient than the fossil
fuel counterpart, and it costs you more on your energy bills,
you can ask yourself why that's happening, And it's happening
(25:43):
because of how the energy prices are set between fossil
fuels and electricity prices. That's a choice that's being made.
It's a choice that gets made regionally, a choice that
gets made locally. So we need to really be focused
on getting the friction out for the household and the
incentives are piece of that, and there's more that can
be done federally, but we also need to be really
(26:04):
focused on pushing the cost down for households. That is
because of choices that we're making at a federal, state,
local level. From a policy perspective, that is artificially inflating costs,
creating friction that inflates cost, creating less transparency that inflates cost,
And there's a bunch of work to do in all
of that.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
So I mean, the climate problem is really complicated and
you have to do the nuts and bolts, and that's
really important. But the vision is important too. So I
haven't heard a big policy that you would want in
the next term. Do you have one of those in
your back pocket that you're pushing for.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
I think the big policy vision is making it easier
for people, and because that is that you Step one
in the Inflation Reduction Act was a bunch of carrots
that were important that people can access. But there is
a lot of work to do to make it easier.
And I think the way I would describe it is
that if we think about the household as the consumer
(27:01):
of the policy, and are focused on the household as
the consumer of the policy, then the policy vision should
be to make it easy for you, and anything that
touches that is sort of in the lines and we
should be working on.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
Thank you, Alice, thank you, Stacy, thank you.
Speaker 4 (27:16):
Thank you, thank you for listening to zero.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
If you'd like to listen to more conversations, from the
Bloomberg Green Festival, head to Bloomberg dot com, Forward slash Green,
and now for the sound of the week. That was
(27:56):
an electric vehicle, a Ford F one getting test drive
from President Joe Biden at the twenty twenty one Detroit
Auto Show. If you liked this episode, please take a
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Speaker 4 (28:19):
You can get in.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
Touch at Zero Pod at Bloomberg dot Net.
Speaker 4 (28:22):
Zero's producer is Mike Lee Raw.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
Bloomberg's Head of podcast is Sage Bowman, and head of
Talk is Brendan newnam Our. Theme music is composed by
Wondering Special thanks to Kira Bindrim and Matthew Griffin. I
am Akshatrati Back soon.
Welcome to zero. I am Akshatrati. This week, can Joe
Biden electrify America? I'm in Seattle this week at the
Bloomberg Green Festival. It's been a hectic few days of conversations, demonstrations,
(00:25):
experiences all to shape the future of the planet. There
was science, arts, technology, culture, and real solutions that you
can see, touch, feel, and even taste. But it all
happened in a week where one thing on everyone's mind
is whether or not Joe Biden can continue as the
(00:45):
Democratic Party's presidential candidate following a series of shaky public appearances.
So even as we had rich conversations about the environment,
politics was unavoidable. You know, this is an existential challenge.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
It's the difference between a chance to arrest this horrific
train coming down the tracks or letting it run over us.
That's the issue in these federal elections.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
The climate stakes of this election could not be higher.
That was a cast of top Democrats, Gina McCarthy, who
was the former White House National Climate Advisor, Washington State
Governor Jay Insley, as well as Sally Jewell, former Secretary
of the Interior. McCarthy, who once was the Environmental Protection
(01:37):
Agency administrator had a little more to say about whether
Joe Biden should stay in the race. She suspected he
himself was reconsidering whether to run, but no matter what
his decision, she said, he had already earned a place
in history as America's climate president. The question of whether
Biden's legacy on climate is enough was on my mind too.
(02:01):
That matters for America's decarbonized future and for voters weighing
up their choices this November, and it is something I
got to ask voting rights advocate and former Georgia governor
candidate Stacy Abrams. One of Stacy's jobs is with the
nonprofit called Rewiring America. It is led by Obama administration
(02:23):
veteran Ari Matusiak. Rewiring America has been focused on getting
Americans to reduce their household emissions, and a lot of
their work centers around making sure people know about the
tax breaks in the Inflation Reduction Act and how that
can make things like heat pumps and electric vehicles more affordable. Arie,
Stacy and I talked about why household emissions are such
(02:46):
a big deal, how to connect existential questions about the
future of the planet to kitchen table decisions, and of
course we talked about Joe Piden and just a note,
this was recorded live in Mccawhall in Seattle. As you'll hear,
it was a lively audience, small children and all. Welcome
(03:19):
to zero and welcome to the Bloomberg Green Festival. Now, Ari,
let's start with a simple proposition. When you think about
climate solutions, one way to think about them is that
we need to electrify more and more of our lives,
and we need to produce that electricity as carbon free
as possible, ideally fully carbon free, very soon. It's not
(03:43):
going to solve all our problems, but it gets us
damn close. So could you talk us through what rewiring
America's biggest successes have been because you were trying to
get electrification to people.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Yeah, well, thank you so much for having me and
for hosting this conversation. I think the thing that is
really not known to people about the damn close part
is that forty two percent of our energy related emissions
come from basically five decisions that we make at our
(04:17):
kitchen tables, maybe six kind of cars you drive, how
you heat air and water in your homes, how you
cook your food, dry your clothes, maybe whether you get
solar on your rooftop. That's forty two percent of our
energy related emissions. Those kitchen table decisions are really, for
the most of us, the largest climate impact we will
(04:39):
have in our lives, or have the opportunity to have.
And so there is this really incredible opportunity to shift
the locust of agency and power to the kitchen table.
And what we've been trying to do with Rewiring America
is tell that story and then empower households in those
kitchen table decision through a combination of policy incentives and
(05:04):
tools that they can use to actually make those decisions
the easy ones to go forward with and get the
benefits of in the process.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
And so far, what have been your biggest successes.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Well, it's not our success alone, certainly, but the Inflation
Reduction Act was something that we were really involved with
in shaping because what we recognized was that the upfront
costs of these better electric machines are too expensive still
for too many households, and so the Inflation Reduction Act
has a lot of these kitchen table incentives for people
(05:36):
that could be as much as a half a trillion
dollars going two households over the next decade, and we
were very involved in shaping that.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
And Stacey now working on energy and environment issues is
not something that's new to you. It goes as far
back as your senior thesis in college, I understand, and
of course it's featured in your work in public office
and your campaigns. Now with Rewiring America for over a year,
what are the biggest barriers that you still see are
(06:06):
remaining in trying to get people to recognize that electrifying
their lives is beneficial to them, even before it is
beneficial to the planet.
Speaker 3 (06:15):
I think the challenge is not convincing people it's beneficial.
It's convincing people it's accessible. Because for the low income,
moderate income families that are facing this challenge, they hear
the specter of climate action, but they often see the
behavior of people who are wealthier, who can afford to
make choices, and so often it feels like sacrifice. It
(06:38):
doesn't feel like progress. And I think the important piece
of the work Rewiring has done, the incredible investment that
comes from the Inflation Reduction Act is that it shifts
the conversation from one of can I afford it? To
how do I get it. When people get to make
decisions that benefit their lives, they are much more likely
to do so. We like getting stuff, and people like
(06:59):
being cooler in the summer, they like being warmer in
the winter, they like their power bills going down. And
what we have to do is actually create the space
for them to understand that's doable. For the first time,
you mentioned that I have been working on these issues
for a very long time. Most people aren't aware that
that's part of my portfolio. But I grew up in
southern Mississippi. I grew up near cancer Alley in Louisiana.
(07:23):
I grew up in petrochemical corridors where communities were often
not served and where it seemed impossible for progress to happen.
I lived in a community in college where the duxtaposition
of where I went to school and where my older
sister went to school was very distinct. And so a
large part of this is just letting people know what's available,
(07:43):
what's possible, and that they can afford it. Because this
is a moment to our's point about it being a
kitchen table issue. Every kitchen table can solve this problem
because there's money to help you, and so part of
the work of rewiring. In fact, the core of rewiring
is helping people understand all of the money that's available,
all of the tools that are available, and then shifting
(08:03):
their belief system to know that they get to benefit.
They just have to believe it's possible.
Speaker 4 (08:08):
And Ari, you talked about the Inflation Reduction Act.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
It's a big bill. It does many things. How specifically
have you been able to use what the IRA has
put out for the work that you've done with Rewarding America.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
Yeah, Well, one of the first things that we did
was we built a calculator for households to access to
understand what they were eligible for in the Inflation Reduction
Act itself. We've had almost a million households access that
over the past two years, and we haven't spent a
dollar advertising for that because, to Stacy's point, people like
(08:44):
getting stuff, but they don't know how to navigate. And
so the first thing that we have done is really
start investing in these tools to help make that kitchen
table conversation personal and accessible, to Stacy's point, for every
household in the country. That's really important because most people
don't think about this stuff on a day in and
(09:05):
day out basis. I work with a lot of people
who are climate geeks. I still haven't met someone who says,
I can't wait for the new model of the water
heater to come out because I'm totally upgrading extrame. That's
not a conversation people have, at least not most people.
And so we've been really focused on creating that sort
of the access points and the on ramps for households.
(09:26):
And then the other thing that we did that Stacy
and I have been working on over the last year
and change is that we put together a coalition to
apply for something called the Greenhouse Gas Reduction Fund, and
we were selected for two billion dollars to really create
a way forward for low and modern income households in
communities so that every kitchen table is able to participate
(09:50):
and afford these improvements.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
Now, the Inflation Reduction Act came up very first answer,
and it's crucial because none of this happens without policy,
and policy doesn't happen without politics. Now, on so many issues,
including on climate, there is a clear choice at the
twenty twenty four election, and Stacy, you said it, the
(10:14):
choice is not Donald Trump, but that means we must
face the inescapable question, which is then who? And you
wrote an op ed yesterday saying that it must be
(10:36):
the Democratic nominee for president must be Joe Biden. Why
is that he is our president?
Speaker 3 (10:41):
He is our nominee and he will be president again
if we do the work necessary to make it so.
But let's be clear, we would not have the Inflation
Reduction Act. We would not have the billions of dollars
that are being poured into communities of color, into low
income communities, into rural communities of American communities. But for
President Joe Biden, we know that, we know absolutely that
(11:08):
these dollars will be transformative in Georgia. One of the
ways Rewiring has been incredibly prescient in thinking about this.
We are doing demonstration projects around the country in Milwaukee
and Gresham, Oregon, in Tulsa, Oklahoma, in East Point, Georgia,
and in Desoda, Georgia. There's a lot of Georgia. I
get to be a part of it, So there's a
lot of Georgia. But in DeSoto, Georgia, we're actually making
(11:29):
certain that every household that wants something is getting the
investment of an upgraded appliance. We have a woman who
was living without running water in her home because she
couldn't afford to upgrade her water heater. It had rested out.
And she's an elderly woman, Mildred Carter seventy five, and
was just going across the street to her neighbor's house
(11:50):
to get water because of the moneies that are going
to come in. Because of the work of rewiring, she
got a new water heater. There is a family that
was living in a double white trailer without central air
with kids, I mean three generations of families. They now
have central air for the first time in their lives.
This is life changing work that would not be possible
(12:12):
but for President Joe Biden. So my commitment to his
reelection is that not only do I know what he
is doing, I know what the other guy said he
promises to do, which is to dismantle, disassociate, and destroy
what is possible for the future. And so for me,
there is no choice but to make certain that we
reelect Joe Biden.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Right, And and we are asking these questions because of
the poor performance at the first presidential debate. Now you
say that any alternative, say you go to an open convention,
is likely to lead to a divide among Democrats, and
you say that the focus should be among Democrats, not infighting,
(12:54):
but trying to defeat Trump. Any other nominee, and I
say in quotes won't have According to you, the campaign
infrastructure resources are significant national record, but sounds like Kamala
Harris has all of that. So if Joe Biden does
step down, would you support Harris to be the nominee.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
I don't do hypotheticals when we are three and a
half months from an existential crisis in this country. We
have a president who will become the nominee in mid August,
who will become the next president if we do the
work between now and then. I support the Biden Harris administration.
But there is one person who is the nominee for
(13:36):
president for the Democratic Party, and that is Joe Biden,
and that is who I support.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
Right, So I appreciate that answer. Now, one of the
things that.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
You've wasn't enough, though.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
Not my first rodeo.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
Come on, you've been crucial in turning the vote out
in Georgia in twenty twenty, got enough votes out to
turn the state blue to ensure that the Senate has
a Democratic majority, and you said you don't do hypotheticals, but.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
No, I didn't say ever, but go ahead. But if
I write books, so I think hypotheticals all the time.
Just depends on the situation. But let's see if you
can reach that, sir.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
If Biden stays on poles, show that currently people aren't
as excited about going to vote for Joe Biden, are
you worried that there won't be enough of a turnout
to be able to defeat Donald Trump.
Speaker 3 (14:50):
People don't care about your politics. They care about their lives.
They vote based on their needs. We need a president
who has demonstrated, for the last three and a half years,
an assiduous commitment to saving our planet and more importantly,
saving our lives. We need someone who has demonstrated through
word and deed, the understanding of the crisis that we
(15:12):
face in our environment, and also has a detailed and
dedicated plan. The work of winning an election is not
simply who is running. It's not just what's on the ballot.
It's who's in the booth. And to get people into
the booth, you have groups like Rewiring America, a nonpartisan
organization that exists to tell people what's possible when people
(15:33):
know I can get an HVAC system so that I
can stay cool in the sweltering heat of Seattle, which
is a strange when they know that in the winter
when delivered fuels start to increase in cost, and they
now have an upgraded system that lets them stay warm
in the winter without having to sacrifice healthcare for energy cost.
(15:56):
That's the choice that we're asking people to make president
by is the right person to be on the ballot.
But the work of winning an election is about who
you get to show up to the booth, and that's
the work of everyone who cares about the future of
this country. And so I'm not concerned. I'm committed, and
our job is to convince every person who shares that
value system and wants to see that future to show
(16:17):
up and do the same work and get more people
to vote.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
I had the honor of serving in the Obama White House,
and in twenty twelve, we had economic data that showed
that everything was getting better, and when we did polling,
people felt like it wasn't getting better in their day
to day lives. And today inflation numbers came out showing
(16:49):
that it's easing, setting up an opportunity for the FED
to do an interest rate cut, and so we talk
about that in terms of macroeconomic issues, but at the
kitchen table it is a different story. And the thing
that just to connect the dots here, the reason why
this is very important to our political future and very
important to our climate future, is that electrification and making
(17:14):
these decisions is anti inflationary to people's day to day
lives because they trade out a five hundred dollars bill
for one hundred dollars bill. But it's also anti inflationary
because the most inflationary force in the history of humankind
is climate change.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
So one of the things that has been surprising to
me as somebody who lives in the UK watching the
Inflation in Reduction Act play out. There are so many
things that are being done that are going to help
reduce emissions, reduce inflation, reduce the bills that people pay
for energy while making decobonization happen, but they've still not
been appreciated by people. People don't know the Inflation Reduction
(17:52):
Act most people, right, And you said, you have this
tool that has gone on to a million people, million
households that have used this tool to try and figure
out how to electrify their homes. There are one hundred
million households in America, and so there is still a
gap between doing which is important and showing to people
what you have done, because that is what will get
(18:13):
the vote to turn out. So how are you working
to bridge that gap? Because that gap is very big.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
It's big, and it's important, and it is also common sense.
Most people don't think about what's happening in Washington day
in and day out. Most people don't read seven thousand
page legislative texts as compelling as they might be, and
you know, people are just trying to make do. And
(18:40):
then the other part of this is that we live
in a status quo environment that is a fossil fuel environment.
So when your furnace conks out or when your water
heater stops working and you need to figure out what
to do again, you don't think about that stuff on
a day in and day out basis. So when you
call somebody to go replace it or fix it, what
(19:01):
they tend to do is do a like for like swap.
So the thing that has pipes in your house that
connects to the pipe sticking out of your wall. When
the contractor comes with their van, they have a thing
that has pipe sticking out of the back to connect
to the pipe sticking out of your wall. And if
at that point in time you say, I heard something
on a podcast about a heat pump, what's that like?
(19:22):
That's not a great time to have that conversation. And
so we need to get we need to cut through
and get to people about the benefit and the value
to them, but also get the friction out of the
process so that it's easier. And that is what we
are incredibly focused on, and the way we think about
it is that our job is to make it easy
(19:42):
for you, and the you in that phrase is anybody
in the one hundred and twenty nine million households in America,
And for for you, it is going to be different
based on where you live, what your circumstances are, and
we have to make it easy for the you and
that context to be able to make to move forward.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
After the break, Stacy and Aery talk about the policies
they most hope to see in another Biden term and
what they anticipate would happen under another Trump term. And
by the way, if you've been enjoying this episode, please
take a moment to rate and review the show on
Apple Podcasts and Spotify. It helps other listeners find it.
(20:34):
Stacy say, the big question that we are grappling with
right now, we move on from that. Joe Biden remains
presidential nominee. What do you think the next three months
should look like to get the vote out for Joe Biden.
Speaker 3 (20:46):
So it's conversations like this. It's explaining to the people
who understand what's at stake what they can do. It's
connecting the dots between the pain they feel and the
opportunity to solve that pain. That's what canvassing is, that's
what organizing is, that's what campaigning is. And so we
have a lot of work to do. To your point,
(21:08):
not as many people know about it because it's shocking,
but in government things move slowly, and so even though
the Inflation Reduction Act pasted in twenty three, it has
taken time to deploy that much money. Those dollars are
now coming online. So part of the responsibility for anyone
who is of good conscience is to share this information
(21:29):
when you're on social media, talk about what you know.
People get most of their information about kitchen table decisions
from people that they know, and so part of our responsibility.
One of the ways we not only proselytize about the IRA,
but proselytize about climate the climate future we can have
is by convincing average folks who are voters to talk
(21:51):
to people who may not be voters, who may not
think they need to be voters, but who want their
lives to be better, and they need to understand that
if you vote, you get this. If you don't vote,
you lose this. And right now people don't know what's
at stake. And so that's the next three months, connecting
the dot between what's at stake and what is possible.
And we have one person who is making possibility real,
(22:14):
and that's the person that we're going to support for president.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Now we have seen a term of Donald Trump in power.
If he does come to power again, and you know,
you've been quite forthright about what it could mean for America.
What is at stake, not just in climate, but beyond it.
You know, in the pop ed you say, former President
Donald Trump has made it clear his plan is to
(22:38):
be dictator on day one. How does your work change
if Trump returns to White House one?
Speaker 3 (22:45):
We do the work to make certain that doesn't happen,
and part of that is to explain what's possible under
the current term or the just complete a term. In
the Supreme Court, the Chevron defferences decision means that the EPA,
the Clean Water Act, all of the work to protect
our climate could be vitiated with the stroke of a pen.
(23:07):
A lesser known decision was the Snyder decision, which says
that it's now legal to bribe local officials, that the
federal law that precludes that bribery is now permitted. Well,
if you're looking at public utility commissions that are making decisions,
if you don't have oversight and they can get money,
I invite all of you to engage in one hypothetical
(23:27):
of what could possibly happen. And so I think our
responsibility is to, as Aari said, we've got to connect
people to these moments. The way you preclude a Trump
administration is by doing the work to re elect the
current administration. But more importantly, we've got to take ourselves
(23:47):
out of the conversation of what's happening in Washington and
take it back to what can happen in my life
if there's the removal of a regulatory body that says
that you shouldn't have to breathe in dirty air. If
there is the removal of a regulatory body that tells
companies they can't pollute where you live, that's a real
consequence and it's not a hypothetical. The law now permits
(24:13):
that to happen, and it is only those who are
in power who can stop it and make it not so.
And so our job is to absolutely ensure that we
explain what could happen, and we also explain how you
stop it from becoming. So it's not rocket science, but
it is hard work and the work of telling people.
(24:35):
This is the work that Rewiring is doing, not through
the lens of partisan decision, but through the conversation of power,
because ultimately that's what all this is about. This is
a power dynamic, and we need to decide who has
the power, us or them, And by us, I mean
the people who need to be able to take care
of themselves, their families, their lives, and their communities. And
(24:58):
if we believe that we have that p then we
can make the choices that makes that power reel.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
So our final question, see Joe Biden does get elected
and twenty twenty five, you have a second term. You
were gunning for the Infation Reduction Act in the first term.
What kind of big, major policy would you want to
see in the next term that could make electrification easier.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Well, it's not just at the federal level, it's across
the country. Stacy mentioned PUCs to engage in the hypothetical.
If you have a machine that you can buy that
is three to five times more efficient than the fossil
fuel counterpart, and it costs you more on your energy bills,
you can ask yourself why that's happening, And it's happening
(25:43):
because of how the energy prices are set between fossil
fuels and electricity prices. That's a choice that's being made.
It's a choice that gets made regionally, a choice that
gets made locally. So we need to really be focused
on getting the friction out for the household and the
incentives are piece of that, and there's more that can
be done federally, but we also need to be really
(26:04):
focused on pushing the cost down for households. That is
because of choices that we're making at a federal, state,
local level. From a policy perspective, that is artificially inflating costs,
creating friction that inflates cost, creating less transparency that inflates cost,
And there's a bunch of work to do in all
of that.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
So I mean, the climate problem is really complicated and
you have to do the nuts and bolts, and that's
really important. But the vision is important too. So I
haven't heard a big policy that you would want in
the next term. Do you have one of those in
your back pocket that you're pushing for.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
I think the big policy vision is making it easier
for people, and because that is that you Step one
in the Inflation Reduction Act was a bunch of carrots
that were important that people can access. But there is
a lot of work to do to make it easier.
And I think the way I would describe it is
that if we think about the household as the consumer
(27:01):
of the policy, and are focused on the household as
the consumer of the policy, then the policy vision should
be to make it easy for you, and anything that
touches that is sort of in the lines and we
should be working on.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
Thank you, Alice, thank you, Stacy, thank you.
Speaker 4 (27:16):
Thank you, thank you for listening to zero.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
If you'd like to listen to more conversations, from the
Bloomberg Green Festival, head to Bloomberg dot com, Forward slash Green,
and now for the sound of the week. That was
(27:56):
an electric vehicle, a Ford F one getting test drive
from President Joe Biden at the twenty twenty one Detroit
Auto Show. If you liked this episode, please take a
moment to rate or review the show on Apple Podcasts
and Spotify. Share this episode with a friend or with
someone thinking about installing an electric cooktok.
Speaker 4 (28:19):
You can get in.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
Touch at Zero Pod at Bloomberg dot Net.
Speaker 4 (28:22):
Zero's producer is Mike Lee Raw.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
Bloomberg's Head of podcast is Sage Bowman, and head of
Talk is Brendan newnam Our. Theme music is composed by
Wondering Special thanks to Kira Bindrim and Matthew Griffin. I
am Akshatrati Back soon.
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