August 11, 2025 • 17 mins
Sometimes the story is in the fabric, not the flesh—and in the right hands, clothing can speak volumes about a death investigation.
In this episode, Dr. Priya Banerjee joins Sheryl McCollum to explore how clothing can hold vital clues in a death investigation. From the first look at a scene to the autopsy table, they reveal how stains, textures, odors, and damage can tell a story the body alone might not. Dr. Priya shares real-world cases — from waterlogged jeans covered in barnacles to garments hiding trace evidence — and explains why context, culture, and condition matter.
Highlights:
- (0:00) Welcome to Pathology with Dr. Priya, a Zone 7 series
- (1:00) "The clothes tell me something before I even start the exam.”
- (3:15) Stains, fibers, and fabric that preserve hidden evidence
- (5:15) When clothing speaks louder than the wounds
- (9:00) Smelling out the truth: detecting accelerants in fire cases
- (10:45) Finding the unseen with alternate light sources
- (12:30) What traditional dress can reveal in an investigation
- (14:30) Paradoxical undressing and mismatched environments
- (16:15) Rips, tears, and the unmistakable signs of struggle
About the Hosts
Dr. Priya Banerjee is a board-certified forensic pathologist with extensive experience in death investigation, clinical forensics, and courtroom testimony. A graduate of Johns Hopkins, she served for over a decade as Rhode Island’s state medical examiner and now runs a private forensic pathology practice. Her work includes military deaths, NSA cases, and high-profile investigations. Dr. Priya has also been featured as a forensic expert on platforms such as CrimeOnline and Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. She is a dedicated educator, animal lover, and proud mom.
Website: anchorforensicpathology.com
Twitter/X: @Autopsy_MD
Sheryl McCollum is an Emmy Award–winning CSI, a writer for CrimeOnline, and the Forensic and Crime Scene Expert for Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. She works as a CSI for a metro Atlanta Police Department and is the co-author of the textbook Cold Case: Pathways to Justice. Sheryl is also the founder and director of the Cold Case Investigative Research Institute (CCIRI), a nationally recognized nonprofit that brings together universities, law enforcement, and experts to help solve unsolved homicides, missing persons cases, and kidnappings.
Email: coldcase2004@gmail.com
Twitter/X: @ColdCaseTips
Facebook: @sheryl.mccollum
Instagram: @officialzone7podcast
📣 If this episode gave you a new understanding of the human side of forensic science, follow the show, share it with someone who needs to hear it, and leave us a review.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Welcome to pathology with doctor Priya. Listen, doctor, I appreciate
today because I want to go one own one with
you about the body and specifically when I get to
a murder scene and I am investigating and trying to
(00:29):
analyze this body, and then once you get it, how
we are a team at that point. Absolutely, So the
first thing I want to ask you, because whenever I
have a homicide scene, I'm first observing and trying to
make sure I don't miss anything. I try to really
make sure that I am looking at the clothing. I
(00:51):
want to know whether it's seasonally appropriate, is it snowing
outside and their barefoot with no shirt on? Are they
wearing any thing that might be religious or cultural or
belonging to a group. But I don't get to undress
them like you do, So I may not know whether
or not they're wearing underwear. I may not know certain
(01:13):
things about it, but I kind of really take some
time with clothing. Do you find that the same thing? Oh?
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Absolutely?
Speaker 3 (01:22):
So. You know, I had a unique sort of role
in my work as a medical examiner, and I think
that's added a lot to my practice now, which is
I used to go to crime scenes, not every single one,
but many over my career.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Anything suspicious, anything.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
That's definitely a homicide and the body's still at the scene, okay,
or anything suspicious, So it can be you know, in
New England where there's a lot of water, like a
water scene or snow like even Karen read how they
were talking about John O'Keeffe. What didn't have I don't
think he had a code on, right, he had like
a shirt and pants if I recall, correct, you have.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
A sweatshirt, correct, So I mean all of.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
That comes into play.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
And so before we even touch the body, what I'm
doing is observing, just like you said, what is happening?
Sort of an overall and then huh, there's my you know,
deceased person. What is going on with them? And you
know it can be anything from you know, are they
(02:30):
dressed appropriately for the weather?
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Right?
Speaker 3 (02:35):
We've even had again water debts where there's barnacles and
the lecture I gave your crew, your team, I think
you remember someone had I had a body recovery from
water where there were like muscles growing on the person's jeans.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Right that really?
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Oh I remember? Yes?
Speaker 3 (02:54):
That not only tells me okay, the jeans are there,
but this person's been wearing them the whole time, and
now you know long enough that they're submerged with these crustaceans.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Growing on them.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
I mean, all of that plays into it. Sometimes I
have handled clothing more delicately right at the scene and
given it as evidence right at the scene to police
because I had a body that was dragged and there
may be touch DNA right at the waistline of the pants,
(03:26):
like the waistband, the inside, you know, And so before
I was like, well, you know, he was shot multiple times,
and I said, this is going to become blood soaked
in the body bag. Can I give you the pants now?
Because I think that evidence was so important, overwhelmingly important,
you know, and it wouldn't change my autopsy analysis.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
Right, And you know, we also have to look at
things like we're the blue jeans unzipped, were underwear missing?
Speaker 3 (03:53):
Oh yeah, I mean you know we're talking about men,
but women. You know, anybody basically unclothed, men or women,
I am very much likely to do a sex kit
on them, Like if they're unclothed at the waist below,
like you know, it has to be really uh you know,
(04:14):
my head tending say if you think of it, just
do it, because otherwise you're not going to have a
second chance. So basically like that, and you could not
run it, right if it turns out to be something else,
But right if clothing is displaced and we don't know
a lot about the case or it's you know, and
(04:35):
I don't like to make a lot of assumptions, right, like,
just collect everything and sort it out. So if you
and maybe I'm not at the scene, you know, and
you tell me the pants are on zipper and that's
how I receive the person, that's going to be a
red flag to.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Me, agreed, And you know, there could be anything. There
could be white powder. Well I don't know if that's cocaine.
I don't know if it's a leaning agent. So again
I'm going to let you know, this is what I
saw on the thigh exactly.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
And I think you know when I taught you guys,
I had the interesting cases with the blue cleaning solution
that had stained It wasn't a suicide, but it was
toilet bowl cleaner that had been ingested on purpose suicide,
and that it was on the shirt. So collecting that shirt,
even if the bottle wasn't at the scene or the
scene had been cleaned up or something. That shirt with
(05:29):
the blue stain was going to be really important for
chemical analysis, right, like to show that it had landed
on the shirt too, and that could help me, you know,
for toxicology reasons put together the case.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
Well, let's talk a little bit about clothing. When it
comes to stains. Most people think I'm only looking for blood,
but that's not true, not at all. So what kind
of stains are you looking for?
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Anything?
Speaker 3 (05:56):
So, you know, I think anything that's there that show
be there is worthy of evaluation.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Right.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
And see, that's something that's so important because I had
a case where a young man had grass stains on
his jeans on one knee, his left knee and then
on the right side near his hip. It looked like
he had been drugged through the grass like righting, But
we found him on gravel.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Oh was it a body dump or something? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (06:26):
Right, So it quickly told me that was a secondary scene.
So again, when you and I are talking, that's something
I would tell you where he was found.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
Right, right, I mean when I say body dump, that
sort of layman's terms, or you know, right on a
secondary scene like the body's been moved.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
So I mean this my brain is just an overdrive
here because I have so much to say about it.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
I mean, well, honey, I'm gonna be quiet, and you go, well.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
No, I mean it's that conversation. But I think, you know,
I think it's important. Like you know, so many things
come to play, right, Like you can have a body
recovery from that one case we talked about, which a
body was found in a trash trash yard.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Right, we had to.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
Put together what was this person wearing, and then we
had to dump the garbage can recycling items to try
to put together receipts, Like we went through his pockets
and then we had to re see what evidence was
sort of associated with the clothing in and around him,
and we realized that this was an alcoholic that had
fallen asleep in a cardboard recite in a cardboard recycling container,
(07:35):
you know, and put together the story.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
But he was a complete John Doe.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Otherwise, did you have a case where there was a
stain that it took you a while to identify? I
look for things, whether it's coffee, paint, beer, some kind
of cleaning agent, seminal fluid all the above, right.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
All of the above, all of the above. I you
just took my list out of my head. Yeah, So,
I mean, you know, I've had car crashes where I'm
seeing a restaurant worker on the way back from work.
You know, they had like oil stains or coffee on them,
you know, just you can tell that, you know, and
(08:14):
they had obviously the restaurant uniform on, you know. Otherwise,
the big thing that I look at in any kind
of hit and run or pedestrian is grease on the body.
You know, is there grease or paint chip transfer. Sometimes
I'm looking at the clothing for tiny little paint chips
that may be caught in the fibers, like of the
jeans or a coat if.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
It's a hit and run.
Speaker 3 (08:36):
So that's not necessarily a stain, but that's a trace
evidence that can be treated that way, right, I collect it,
give it for analysis, you know, photograph, photograph everything. I
think that that's photograph everything, right, photograph everything in place,
and then a stain, a tiny little you know, trace,
hair or paint chip. But you know, obviously in any
(09:00):
kind of fire death, I'm very very concerned about a
volatile so gasoline kerosene, any kind of accelerant that's used, right,
that is huge and actually sometimes I don't see it,
but I smell.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
It, right, So if that's good.
Speaker 3 (09:17):
Yeah, So if the clothing is doused in something right
like like because of the fire, I may not like
see a discoloration, you know, whether it be the coloring.
And obviously all of this is very hard on black clothing,
which we can come back to. But for anything that
smells the clothing, I take a photo and I can it.
(09:39):
And when I say can it, we have And I'm
sure you have this in your truck, which is unlike empty,
unlined like paint canisters, right, and so they're made to
seal tightly. You can't use anything with paint in it
because that already has chemicals in it.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
You can't just pour the white paint. But I have them.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
And what I do is I seal the jenes or
the shirt or any fragment, even if I can't tell
what kind of cloth it is. I in any fire death,
if there's fragments of clothing left, I I can it
because then they test for any sort of accellerant presence
or gasoline, kerosene, you know, whatever it may be I
(10:25):
send it to the crime lab. But first what I'm
doing by canning it is I then seal it and
then I tape it clothed, you know, photograph it like evidence,
and then you know, do a chain of custody to
you to submit to the crime lab. So it's not
always what you just see, do you understand, It's an
observation about the clothing itself. And then oftentimes I don't
(10:48):
know if you do it, but I run an alternate
light source. If I think of any kind of cleaning
fluid sexual assault that will highlight a lot of you know,
abnormal stains.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
I can't tell what that stain is. Do you follow, Like, just.
Speaker 3 (11:04):
Because it's highlighted, it needs further testing, so it could glow,
I mean even bleach and you'urine glow correct one, So
you can't you know, I'm not going to say that
this is XYZ.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
What I will say is there's.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
A potential abnormal spot or I will you know, show
that to the detectives and say this is worthy of
more analysis.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
And the location on the clothing that's important.
Speaker 3 (11:29):
Right, And then I do the same thing if the
sexual assault is there, like on the body too, the
alternate light source can be used on the body, so
you know, the clothing can be a clue to something
deeper as well.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
I had a homicide where he was shot in the
chant in the neck, but I noticed an injury to
the clothing, but there was no blood. But then when
he got to the medical examiner's office, sure enough he
had been shot in the knee host mortem.
Speaker 3 (11:59):
And I think I thought about that before too, right,
that there's no blood if it's a post mortem injury,
and so it makes sense that there's no blood, but
you have a hole there, right, So that is an
interesting correlation and that should it shouldn't be. You can't
just say, oh, that's an artifact, because that's a true hole, right,
(12:21):
it's just the fact that he was not alive when
he sustained that injury. But I mean, clothing is so critical.
I can't even tell you, like, you know, whether it
be white sweater where the person was shot and I
can see, you know, powder residue to what is on
the shirt, right, Like sometimes you know, I remember in
(12:44):
high school where I grip outside of DC, you couldn't
wear any handkerchiefs or all red or all blue clothing
because of gang affiliation. Yeah, there are a lot of
restrictions on labels because they had certain affiliation, you know.
And so even if you don't think you know you
(13:04):
in our jobs, I think we get to know the
street slang or alternate representation if you will. You know,
you don't always take everything at face value because it
could have you know, a correlation with something, so you know,
and I think, then is there cultural things?
Speaker 1 (13:26):
Right?
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Like my mom would wear a sorry.
Speaker 3 (13:28):
If something happened to her and she was found in
a sorry, they would know she's an Indian woman, you know.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Or Priya. If she wasn't found wearing a sari, that
would tell you something.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Right, right exactly?
Speaker 3 (13:40):
I mean my mom worked a lot, so she did
wear like what I call Western clothes. But anytime she
went to an Indian function, right, like an Indian get together, wedding, whatever,
it's Indian clothes. So you can tell, you know, cultural representation.
You know what is meaning to them?
Speaker 1 (13:57):
You know?
Speaker 3 (13:57):
Is it during a celebration? Is that during a funeral?
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Right?
Speaker 3 (14:02):
Like, if you think about it, what would we know
we were black to funerals?
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Right? Not that everyone wearing black is going to a funeral,
but there are mean.
Speaker 3 (14:10):
What I'm getting at is there are representations or meanings
to colors, even you know, not the design, not the
you know, other than the color. And so we're looking
for everything on the body. You know, there's always uniforms,
whether there's something interesting that you brought up, it's called well,
it reminds me of something called paradoxical undressing.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
Okay, And we're we're.
Speaker 3 (14:34):
Still thankfully in the thickest summer in New England, but
you know where it's beautiful. But then in the winter time,
if you think about, especially in colder states, people drink,
and we know drinking causes the body to feel flushed
and warm, okay, And what.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
Happens is that.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
It's called paradoxical undressing, where people will be outside and
they start drinking and they feel flushed, they feel hot,
and they start even though they're standing in the snow,
you know, in freezing temperatures, they'll start taking layers off
because they feel hot.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
So that's why it's paradoxical. It doesn't make.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
Sense, and then they're found Ultimately they die from hype bothermia. Right,
they feel hot, but they're exposed to cold, and then
they die from cold. Exposure, and so if they're not,
you know, this is sort of the textbook example of
where the clothing doesn't match the setting, you know, the scene,
(15:39):
and so they're they're going to be in a T
shirt and underwear or shorts, right, and that doesn't make
any sense, so you know, something weird is going on.
So right there, that's probably the textbook example of clothing
and environment mismatch.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
And I get that. I've even done some skiing where
I fel like I've got to take this jacket off.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
That's right, that's right.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
And then I go back up and it starts to
get cloudy and I'm sweaty and I'm freezing now right
right right, And so I understand. I understand how that
would happen. Yeah, And you know, one last thing I
want to mention about clothing, because we haven't really touched
on it, is when the clothing is ripped at the
collar near the buttons are missing whatnot. So it could
(16:27):
be indicative of a struggle, of an attack, a struggle.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
Right absolutely.
Speaker 3 (16:31):
I mean, you know things can be decoratively damaged, right
like ripped geans and stuff, But you can tell from
the condition or the area, like what's decorative and what's
sort of forceful?
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Absolutely, oh, of course.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
Yeah, if it's just a single tear that doesn't look
like it should be there, or the jeans are you know,
ripped on both sighs the same way.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
You know, y'all, I had no idea that doctor and
I could talk about clothes for so long. So we're
gonna have to conclude today because dtor Prie and I
both have other engagements. But next week we're gonna pick
it up and talk about jewelry. Dtor Pria, can you
believe clothing took the whole episode?
Speaker 2 (17:17):
I know, right, just plain old clothing.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
Plain old clothing, because we have a whole list. We
have a whole list to go through, so clothing and
stains and jewelry and piercing and tattoos and marks. Y'all
just hang on and we'll be back next week. Thank you,
dog bye,
Welcome to pathology with doctor Priya. Listen, doctor, I appreciate
today because I want to go one own one with
you about the body and specifically when I get to
a murder scene and I am investigating and trying to
(00:29):
analyze this body, and then once you get it, how
we are a team at that point. Absolutely, So the
first thing I want to ask you, because whenever I
have a homicide scene, I'm first observing and trying to
make sure I don't miss anything. I try to really
make sure that I am looking at the clothing. I
(00:51):
want to know whether it's seasonally appropriate, is it snowing
outside and their barefoot with no shirt on? Are they
wearing any thing that might be religious or cultural or
belonging to a group. But I don't get to undress
them like you do, So I may not know whether
or not they're wearing underwear. I may not know certain
(01:13):
things about it, but I kind of really take some
time with clothing. Do you find that the same thing? Oh?
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Absolutely?
Speaker 3 (01:22):
So. You know, I had a unique sort of role
in my work as a medical examiner, and I think
that's added a lot to my practice now, which is
I used to go to crime scenes, not every single one,
but many over my career.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Anything suspicious, anything.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
That's definitely a homicide and the body's still at the scene, okay,
or anything suspicious, So it can be you know, in
New England where there's a lot of water, like a
water scene or snow like even Karen read how they
were talking about John O'Keeffe. What didn't have I don't
think he had a code on, right, he had like
a shirt and pants if I recall, correct, you have.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
A sweatshirt, correct, So I mean all of.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
That comes into play.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
And so before we even touch the body, what I'm
doing is observing, just like you said, what is happening?
Sort of an overall and then huh, there's my you know,
deceased person. What is going on with them? And you
know it can be anything from you know, are they
(02:30):
dressed appropriately for the weather?
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Right?
Speaker 3 (02:35):
We've even had again water debts where there's barnacles and
the lecture I gave your crew, your team, I think
you remember someone had I had a body recovery from
water where there were like muscles growing on the person's jeans.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Right that really?
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Oh I remember? Yes?
Speaker 3 (02:54):
That not only tells me okay, the jeans are there,
but this person's been wearing them the whole time, and
now you know long enough that they're submerged with these crustaceans.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Growing on them.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
I mean, all of that plays into it. Sometimes I
have handled clothing more delicately right at the scene and
given it as evidence right at the scene to police
because I had a body that was dragged and there
may be touch DNA right at the waistline of the pants,
(03:26):
like the waistband, the inside, you know, And so before
I was like, well, you know, he was shot multiple times,
and I said, this is going to become blood soaked
in the body bag. Can I give you the pants now?
Because I think that evidence was so important, overwhelmingly important,
you know, and it wouldn't change my autopsy analysis.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
Right, And you know, we also have to look at
things like we're the blue jeans unzipped, were underwear missing?
Speaker 3 (03:53):
Oh yeah, I mean you know we're talking about men,
but women. You know, anybody basically unclothed, men or women,
I am very much likely to do a sex kit
on them, Like if they're unclothed at the waist below,
like you know, it has to be really uh you know,
(04:14):
my head tending say if you think of it, just
do it, because otherwise you're not going to have a
second chance. So basically like that, and you could not
run it, right if it turns out to be something else,
But right if clothing is displaced and we don't know
a lot about the case or it's you know, and
(04:35):
I don't like to make a lot of assumptions, right, like,
just collect everything and sort it out. So if you
and maybe I'm not at the scene, you know, and
you tell me the pants are on zipper and that's
how I receive the person, that's going to be a
red flag to.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Me, agreed, And you know, there could be anything. There
could be white powder. Well I don't know if that's cocaine.
I don't know if it's a leaning agent. So again
I'm going to let you know, this is what I
saw on the thigh exactly.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
And I think you know when I taught you guys,
I had the interesting cases with the blue cleaning solution
that had stained It wasn't a suicide, but it was
toilet bowl cleaner that had been ingested on purpose suicide,
and that it was on the shirt. So collecting that shirt,
even if the bottle wasn't at the scene or the
scene had been cleaned up or something. That shirt with
(05:29):
the blue stain was going to be really important for
chemical analysis, right, like to show that it had landed
on the shirt too, and that could help me, you know,
for toxicology reasons put together the case.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
Well, let's talk a little bit about clothing. When it
comes to stains. Most people think I'm only looking for blood,
but that's not true, not at all. So what kind
of stains are you looking for?
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Anything?
Speaker 3 (05:56):
So, you know, I think anything that's there that show
be there is worthy of evaluation.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Right.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
And see, that's something that's so important because I had
a case where a young man had grass stains on
his jeans on one knee, his left knee and then
on the right side near his hip. It looked like
he had been drugged through the grass like righting, But
we found him on gravel.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Oh was it a body dump or something? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (06:26):
Right, So it quickly told me that was a secondary scene.
So again, when you and I are talking, that's something
I would tell you where he was found.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
Right, right, I mean when I say body dump, that
sort of layman's terms, or you know, right on a
secondary scene like the body's been moved.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
So I mean this my brain is just an overdrive
here because I have so much to say about it.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
I mean, well, honey, I'm gonna be quiet, and you go, well.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
No, I mean it's that conversation. But I think, you know,
I think it's important. Like you know, so many things
come to play, right, Like you can have a body
recovery from that one case we talked about, which a
body was found in a trash trash yard.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Right, we had to.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
Put together what was this person wearing, and then we
had to dump the garbage can recycling items to try
to put together receipts, Like we went through his pockets
and then we had to re see what evidence was
sort of associated with the clothing in and around him,
and we realized that this was an alcoholic that had
fallen asleep in a cardboard recite in a cardboard recycling container,
(07:35):
you know, and put together the story.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
But he was a complete John Doe.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Otherwise, did you have a case where there was a
stain that it took you a while to identify? I
look for things, whether it's coffee, paint, beer, some kind
of cleaning agent, seminal fluid all the above, right.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
All of the above, all of the above. I you
just took my list out of my head. Yeah, So,
I mean, you know, I've had car crashes where I'm
seeing a restaurant worker on the way back from work.
You know, they had like oil stains or coffee on them,
you know, just you can tell that, you know, and
(08:14):
they had obviously the restaurant uniform on, you know. Otherwise,
the big thing that I look at in any kind
of hit and run or pedestrian is grease on the body.
You know, is there grease or paint chip transfer. Sometimes
I'm looking at the clothing for tiny little paint chips
that may be caught in the fibers, like of the
jeans or a coat if.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
It's a hit and run.
Speaker 3 (08:36):
So that's not necessarily a stain, but that's a trace
evidence that can be treated that way, right, I collect it,
give it for analysis, you know, photograph, photograph everything. I
think that that's photograph everything, right, photograph everything in place,
and then a stain, a tiny little you know, trace,
hair or paint chip. But you know, obviously in any
(09:00):
kind of fire death, I'm very very concerned about a
volatile so gasoline kerosene, any kind of accelerant that's used, right,
that is huge and actually sometimes I don't see it,
but I smell.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
It, right, So if that's good.
Speaker 3 (09:17):
Yeah, So if the clothing is doused in something right
like like because of the fire, I may not like
see a discoloration, you know, whether it be the coloring.
And obviously all of this is very hard on black clothing,
which we can come back to. But for anything that
smells the clothing, I take a photo and I can it.
(09:39):
And when I say can it, we have And I'm
sure you have this in your truck, which is unlike empty,
unlined like paint canisters, right, and so they're made to
seal tightly. You can't use anything with paint in it
because that already has chemicals in it.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
You can't just pour the white paint. But I have them.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
And what I do is I seal the jenes or
the shirt or any fragment, even if I can't tell
what kind of cloth it is. I in any fire death,
if there's fragments of clothing left, I I can it
because then they test for any sort of accellerant presence
or gasoline, kerosene, you know, whatever it may be I
(10:25):
send it to the crime lab. But first what I'm
doing by canning it is I then seal it and
then I tape it clothed, you know, photograph it like evidence,
and then you know, do a chain of custody to
you to submit to the crime lab. So it's not
always what you just see, do you understand, It's an
observation about the clothing itself. And then oftentimes I don't
(10:48):
know if you do it, but I run an alternate
light source. If I think of any kind of cleaning
fluid sexual assault that will highlight a lot of you know,
abnormal stains.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
I can't tell what that stain is. Do you follow, Like, just.
Speaker 3 (11:04):
Because it's highlighted, it needs further testing, so it could glow,
I mean even bleach and you'urine glow correct one, So
you can't you know, I'm not going to say that
this is XYZ.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
What I will say is there's.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
A potential abnormal spot or I will you know, show
that to the detectives and say this is worthy of
more analysis.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
And the location on the clothing that's important.
Speaker 3 (11:29):
Right, And then I do the same thing if the
sexual assault is there, like on the body too, the
alternate light source can be used on the body, so
you know, the clothing can be a clue to something
deeper as well.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
I had a homicide where he was shot in the
chant in the neck, but I noticed an injury to
the clothing, but there was no blood. But then when
he got to the medical examiner's office, sure enough he
had been shot in the knee host mortem.
Speaker 3 (11:59):
And I think I thought about that before too, right,
that there's no blood if it's a post mortem injury,
and so it makes sense that there's no blood, but
you have a hole there, right, So that is an
interesting correlation and that should it shouldn't be. You can't
just say, oh, that's an artifact, because that's a true hole, right,
(12:21):
it's just the fact that he was not alive when
he sustained that injury. But I mean, clothing is so critical.
I can't even tell you, like, you know, whether it
be white sweater where the person was shot and I
can see, you know, powder residue to what is on
the shirt, right, Like sometimes you know, I remember in
(12:44):
high school where I grip outside of DC, you couldn't
wear any handkerchiefs or all red or all blue clothing
because of gang affiliation. Yeah, there are a lot of
restrictions on labels because they had certain affiliation, you know.
And so even if you don't think you know you
(13:04):
in our jobs, I think we get to know the
street slang or alternate representation if you will. You know,
you don't always take everything at face value because it
could have you know, a correlation with something, so you know,
and I think, then is there cultural things?
Speaker 1 (13:26):
Right?
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Like my mom would wear a sorry.
Speaker 3 (13:28):
If something happened to her and she was found in
a sorry, they would know she's an Indian woman, you know.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Or Priya. If she wasn't found wearing a sari, that
would tell you something.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Right, right exactly?
Speaker 3 (13:40):
I mean my mom worked a lot, so she did
wear like what I call Western clothes. But anytime she
went to an Indian function, right, like an Indian get together, wedding, whatever,
it's Indian clothes. So you can tell, you know, cultural representation.
You know what is meaning to them?
Speaker 1 (13:57):
You know?
Speaker 3 (13:57):
Is it during a celebration? Is that during a funeral?
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Right?
Speaker 3 (14:02):
Like, if you think about it, what would we know
we were black to funerals?
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Right? Not that everyone wearing black is going to a funeral,
but there are mean.
Speaker 3 (14:10):
What I'm getting at is there are representations or meanings
to colors, even you know, not the design, not the
you know, other than the color. And so we're looking
for everything on the body. You know, there's always uniforms,
whether there's something interesting that you brought up, it's called well,
it reminds me of something called paradoxical undressing.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
Okay, And we're we're.
Speaker 3 (14:34):
Still thankfully in the thickest summer in New England, but
you know where it's beautiful. But then in the winter time,
if you think about, especially in colder states, people drink,
and we know drinking causes the body to feel flushed
and warm, okay, And what.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
Happens is that.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
It's called paradoxical undressing, where people will be outside and
they start drinking and they feel flushed, they feel hot,
and they start even though they're standing in the snow,
you know, in freezing temperatures, they'll start taking layers off
because they feel hot.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
So that's why it's paradoxical. It doesn't make.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
Sense, and then they're found Ultimately they die from hype bothermia. Right,
they feel hot, but they're exposed to cold, and then
they die from cold. Exposure, and so if they're not,
you know, this is sort of the textbook example of
where the clothing doesn't match the setting, you know, the scene,
(15:39):
and so they're they're going to be in a T
shirt and underwear or shorts, right, and that doesn't make
any sense, so you know, something weird is going on.
So right there, that's probably the textbook example of clothing
and environment mismatch.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
And I get that. I've even done some skiing where
I fel like I've got to take this jacket off.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
That's right, that's right.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
And then I go back up and it starts to
get cloudy and I'm sweaty and I'm freezing now right
right right, And so I understand. I understand how that
would happen. Yeah, And you know, one last thing I
want to mention about clothing, because we haven't really touched
on it, is when the clothing is ripped at the
collar near the buttons are missing whatnot. So it could
(16:27):
be indicative of a struggle, of an attack, a struggle.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
Right absolutely.
Speaker 3 (16:31):
I mean, you know things can be decoratively damaged, right
like ripped geans and stuff, But you can tell from
the condition or the area, like what's decorative and what's
sort of forceful?
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Absolutely, oh, of course.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
Yeah, if it's just a single tear that doesn't look
like it should be there, or the jeans are you know,
ripped on both sighs the same way.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
You know, y'all, I had no idea that doctor and
I could talk about clothes for so long. So we're
gonna have to conclude today because dtor Prie and I
both have other engagements. But next week we're gonna pick
it up and talk about jewelry. Dtor Pria, can you
believe clothing took the whole episode?
Speaker 2 (17:17):
I know, right, just plain old clothing.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
Plain old clothing, because we have a whole list. We
have a whole list to go through, so clothing and
stains and jewelry and piercing and tattoos and marks. Y'all
just hang on and we'll be back next week. Thank you,
dog bye,
Host
Sheryl McCollum
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