September 6, 2024 • 25 mins
Today, Nancy and Sheryl discuss the heart-wrenching case of Madeline Soto.
The Orange County Sheriff’s Office said Madeline’s body was found off Hickory Tree Road at about 4:30 p.m. on March 1. Police found the body after someone called in a tip, following a press conference.
The discovery was in the area where her mother’s boyfriend, Stephan Sterns, had been spotted earlier in the week when he stopped to change a tire, police said.
Sterns claimed that he dropped Madeline off at school the day she vanished, but Orange County Sheriff John Mina said that wasn’t true and that “she was already dead at the time and that Stephan Sterns moved her body in the early morning hours on that day.
Sheryl and Nancy dissect critical aspects of the investigation, from the disturbing behavior of the suspect, to the patterns of negligence and abuse within Maddie’s household.
They also focus on the importance of recognizing red flags and patterns in such cases, and the role of evidence in bringing justice.
Show Notes:
- (0:00) Welcome! Nancy and Sheryl introduce this week’s crime roundup
- (0:45) Madeline Soto Case
- (3:30) The unsettling actions of the mother's boyfriend, Stefan Stearns
- (4:00) Nancy gives examples of felony murders
- (6:00) Madeline’s mother’s neglagence
- (8:30) The Timeline of events surrounding Madeline’s birthday party
- (13:00) Conflicting statements
- (15:00) Marshaling evidence - building a case
- (18:00) The brutality of the autopsy
---
Nancy Grace is an outspoken, tireless advocate for victims’ rights and one of television's most respected legal analysts. Nancy Grace had a perfect conviction record during her decade as a prosecutor. She is the founder and publisher of CrimeOnline.com, a crime- fighting digital platform that investigates breaking crime news, spreads awareness of missing people and shines a light on cold cases.
In addition, Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, a daily show hosted by Grace, airs on SIRIUS XM’s Triumph Channel 111 and is downloadable as a podcast on all audio platforms - https://www.crimeonline.com/
Connect with Nancy:
X: @nancygrace
Instagram: @thenancygrace
Facebook: @nancygrace
Sheryl “Mac” McCollum is an Emmy Award winning CSI, a writer for CrimeOnLine, Forensic and Crime Scene Expert for Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, and a CSI for a metro Atlanta Police Department. She is the co-author of the textbook., Cold Case: Pathways to Justice.
Connect with Sheryl:
Email: coldcase2004@gmail.com
X: @149zone7
Facebook: @sheryl.mccollum
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Welcome to the Crime Round Up. I'm Cheryl McCollum and
I am joined by the Queen herself, Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Good morning, Good morning, Good morning, Cheryl McCollum. Just so
much is happening right now. It's hard to pick on
what we should focus because you know, so much is happening.
And you know, a lot of people would say, you know,
that's that's great for you, and Cheryl got plenty to
talk about, but when you think about the people behind
(00:43):
our reporting and our investigations, it's very disturbing. And I'm
specifically referring to Maddie's so too. I mean, I just
I'm beside myself about the school shooting. When I look
at the photo of the little victim, you know, one
of multiple victims, I can hardly even think straight. And
(01:05):
at the same time, the Mattie Madeline Sautou case is
moving forward, and the more I learn, the more discussed
that I get.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
And you know, with Mattie's case, to me, it's something
that you and I preach all the time. Patterns, patterns, patterns.
Anytime somebody breaks a pattern that should be a flag.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
I'm just looking at the evidence, you know, in addition
to patterns, because a defense attorney can tear a pattern
to shreds if that's all you've got. One thing I
noticed is the I had didn't call my boyfriend, Stephan Stearns.
I'm thinking about hard evidence in the case, and I'm
thinking about the mother and her involvement, her alleged involvement.
(01:53):
For one thing, I noticed that the what we really
need is a giant timeline for a jury because no
one is commenting on it, but the fact that he
the mother's boyfriend to live in Stefan Stearns threw away
(02:15):
Maddie's backpack and laptop in a dumpster before her body
is found. And I was analyzing this last night in
preparation to talk to you this morning. And I've seen
that in multiple cases where the victims items, they're clothing,
their possessions are thrown away or sold while the victim's
(02:39):
still missing. Why because the perp knows they're not going
to be she won't need her backpack anymore, her little
school laptop. And this morning, when I was watching the twins,
at this point, I don't pack their backpacks anymore, but
I was watching them get their school laptops together before
they left. Of course that's bittersweet. I'm happy they're doing
(03:00):
it on their own. But Cheryl, till they were about
in the seventh grade, I put a toy in the
backpack every day with their with their snack, and they go,
is there a toy? And I said, the toy missed
you so much it jumped in your backpack. They actually
believe that, but until, like you know, they would never say, mom,
I'll believe that you did it. But they just look
(03:20):
at me like, Okay, we know you did it. And
I was just thinking about Maddie Madeline Soto getting ready
for school the day before and sometime, and I think
it's not when people think she was killed. I think
she was killed earlier.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Well, he's caught on video at the apartment complex, like
you said, at seven point thirty in the morning, dumping
her personal items. Well, that says to me she was
killed the night before.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Possibly yeah, And when the mother is asked, this is
why I'm going back to the mother. Do I think
the mother killed her? No, But I think that negligence
that ends in death, in my mind is a felony
murder because again, and I know I've said this many
many times, but it really can't be said enough. Felony
(04:14):
murder is very simply when a death occurs during the
commission of a felony, that's it. For instance, if you're
robbing a gas station and you run into the gas
tank itself and it blows up and it gives the
attendant inside the gas station as felony murder. You're committing
(04:36):
an armed robbery, which is a felony, and a death occurs.
That's a textbook example a felony murder. Hey, I got
to make it note of this whole on Mom felony
murder because I mean, how can you have your boyfriend
and he's been sleeping with her since she's eleven? How
do I know that? Because nearly two thousand images were
found on his cell phone? Yep, what an ahole is
(04:59):
definitely going to be in hell. But that's really not
enough for me. I want Tom in jail or the
death penalty now. Okay, Satan can have him later. I
want him now. So how do I work that? This
is something? I have to think long and hard about
taking this to a grand jury, charging Mom with felony
murder felony child negligence that ends in murder. I mean
(05:26):
the guys raping your daughter down the hall and then
she's dead by seven am. And what you sleep through
it because you have a migrain, you know what. Screw
you and the horse you rode in on there. That's
a technical legal term for you.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
That surely is. But Nancy, when she's asked about the abuse,
he says, the sex stuff, Oh, that wasn't evil.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
How would you not.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Be losing your mind to thank somebody that you cared about,
that you brought into your home, that you're preparing meals
for and washing his clothes and anything else you can
think of in that relationship, and he's harming your child
for years and you say it's not evil.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
That's that's what I'm saying, Cheryl. I just that degree
of negligence to me is a felony and she needs
to be charged of fellow him her. At the very beginning,
people are saying legal legals, Oh, it's not the mom's fault.
You know what kind of is? It is her fault
for a lot, For it's right under her nose. It's
(06:37):
not like it's happening away from the home and you
have no idea. It's right, it's twenty feet from.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Her, and she brought him in there. And here's the
other thing somebody should ask themselves. If this man is
footloose and fancy free, why you Why is he selecting
you to date, you to live with? When now he's
got to take on a twelve year old, an eleven
year old, a ten year old, however old she was
(07:05):
when they first started dating. Why would he do that?
You have to ask yourself. Is there an arterior motive
for him? Is he seeking you out because of Madeline?
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Well, you know all the studies have been done, Cheryl
McCollum that these predators seek out women with children so
they can get to the children. I mean, this is
not fantastical. It happens all the time, and it's hard
for people to believe. But I've seen it so many
times anecdotally, and I'm a statistic that says this happens
twenty five percent of the time in dating situations when
(07:39):
you have a single mom. And when I say it
happens all the time, I don't have a stat to
support that, but I've seen it personally so many times.
What does that mean, Cheryl? What can I prove with that? Nothing?
So you can't really bring statistics into court, you know.
That's how I see everything around me sadly, like, can
it come into court? Can I use it? What does
(08:02):
it prove? This is what it proves in my mind.
It proves to me that this is an age old
pattern and he had probably done it before, and that's
why he was dating the mom because we know he's
been based on the images on his phone, that he's
been raping her since she was eleven. Now, thinking about
the mom saying it wasn't evil, that just pushes me
(08:24):
over the bench.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
So again, if you're looking at that timeline, Sunday before
he supposedly was going to take her to school. Monday,
she celebrated her birthday. Here, you're having cake, you're all
dressed up, you're turning thirteen, you're finally a teenager. That's
a big deal. But mama's not even at the party
because mama's at work. Mamma gets home, she's exhausted, tells
(08:52):
her going to bed, and the next morning he's supposedly
dropping her at school, but they've got him on video
with the dumpster.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
Can we just t on just a mind right there.
I was just thinking about something that happened last night,
Cheryl McCollum. I had I was up up the last
two nights till about two, and you know, I get
up at five one day day before, day before, day
before yesterday, I had to have a root canal. Okay,
(09:22):
the next day yesterday I had to have foot surgery outpatient,
still foot surgery. So last night it's about midnight, Lucy,
I'm up reading about Mattie Soto and sitting up in
ben One light on in my room and Lucy comes
in and goes, Mom, I need a gilly suit tomorrow morning.
(09:47):
You know what a gilly suit is, right, It's like
the Marines wear when they're hiding out in a field
and they looked like a clump of leaves, but they're
actually a person. They're hiding under this like a giant
kate with eyeball with eye holes in it, and it's,
you know, like moss. I just looked at her. I thought,
(10:09):
your Lord in Heaven. And you know what I did.
I didn't say, girl, I'm tired. I got up with
my root canal and.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
My foot at a jive bend bandage, and I started
tromping through the house all in the basement of course
I found their Halloween outfits when they were three.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
But I mean I found plenty of those. I went
through from place to place, closet to closet. I didn't
find it. I thought I knew where it was, but
I didn't want to wake up John David. I snuck
around in his room with you know, the dim light
on your cellphone, trying to look in mixing cranny, but
I didn't want to wake him up. All right, this morning,
I wake him up at six. First thing, I'm like,
(10:50):
good morning, where's your Gilly suit? And he knew exactly
where the gilly suit was? And we got it, of course,
and she she took it to school. Why does she
want again suit? Okay, because somehow she's gotten in charge
of outfits to reenact Midsummer Night Dream Shakespeare's And I'm
(11:12):
not going to even ask why who's wearing a gilly suit?
But that said, and this mother could drag her sorry,
weary into a birthday party, you know, make the birthday
party two hours later for when you get home. And look,
I know how hard it is to get off. I
never ever took off at the DA's office ever, But
do it after do it the next day. It doesn't matter.
(11:35):
Be there for Pete's sake. Find the damn gilly suit.
Oh you've driven me to curse. I hope the twins
don't hear this. What can I expect from them? If
even I can't behave I tell you what. David's out
in the backyard right now. You know why because she said, well,
s h I t in front of the children. Can
(11:55):
I tell you how I nearly fell out if luks
could kill And I said, all right, go straight back
to the back. You're getting your mouth washed out with soap.
So then we had to, of course pretend I'm well,
actually I did put soap in his mouth. We had
to pretend he was kidding. Oh my goodness. Hopefully they
(12:15):
won't listen to his own seven.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Okay, you know again, for this situation, why not have
the birthday party Saturday? Most people do. It doesn't matter
the date. It matters that people are there that should
be there. So that was concerning for me as well.
But again the timeline birthday party, she went to bed.
He supposedly takes her to school, but they've got him
(12:37):
on the dumpster. But then Nancy, he comes back after
the seven point thirty where he's putting her backpack and
computer in the dumpster. He comes back a little after
eight o'clock. She's in the vehicle with him, but she's
slumped over.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
She's not slumped over, she's dead.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Can you imagine propping her body up and buckling it
in and then the mother you know, I'm sure you've
taken time to read my last book, Don't be a
victim Fighting Back against America's crime Wife. Listen, and that
I talk about when you take your children to various places,
(13:18):
you need to know what they're wearing. I know what
Lucy and John David are wearing. I even know what
John David's underwear looks like because the ladies closed out
last night. I don't tell anybody that because he can
do it himself. I do it because I'm oddly, weirdly
attached to doing all these things with them, like they
need me makes me feel better about myself. They don't
need me, Cheryl sadly, I need them. I get it. Yes,
(13:42):
I know what they're wearing. Yes, I know what color
their backpacks are. Yes, I know Carr they're in that.
How can you not know what your child is wearing
or what time you even saw them last. She gave
conflicting statements about when she even saw Maddie last. Remember,
at first the investigators religive believe she saw Mattie that morning.
(14:05):
And see that kind of an inconsistency can throw off
a murder investigation. I mean, it's the timeline, which I
can't harp on enough. If you start your timeline that
morning when she's dropped off at school, then you're screwed.
The timeline starts the time at the time she last
saw Maddie alive, which was the night before when she
(14:27):
sent her to bed with her live in Stephaon Stearns,
the rapist.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
And how about when police come to her and show
her his Google searches. He's looking up things that people
would use for anesthesia that would cause somebody to not remember,
things like that, you know, amnesia and her unable to
move her muscles.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
Are There's so many facts. This is why it takes
me so long to martial evidence. And what do I
mean by martial evidence? For instance, evidence that will prove
his lines that he can't be believed. You have to
do a whole list, a whole demonstrative piece of evidence.
Poster overhead whatever. I never like to do power points
(15:13):
because I was afraid the Drew would go to sleep
during that. I like to do posters and HANMD make
them myself so I can look at them and make
sure they're awake. You know, after lunch especially, they go
down to that good old courthouse cafeteria and get full
on a bunch of carbs and come back and go
straight to sleep in the jury.
Speaker 3 (15:28):
Box hub l No, not on my watch, nobody's going
to sleep.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
But there's so much evidence. You got to do a
whole analysis of the timeline. You've got to then overlay
the timeline with his movements that we know of. There
you have to add in the video of him, what
time was that the tag reader? What time was that
when he allegedly went to a vape shot, when he
(15:57):
allegedly went to McDonald's. When he's caught on me once
video quote dropping her off. All that has to be
laid in. You know when he oh, I love this,
he's turned his cell phone off, just like Hoburger and
so many others I shall not name.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
He tried to factory reset it the same day as
you went missing.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Yeah, I mean in this day and age, you turn
your cell phone off at the same exact time a
murder goes down of a girl you've been raping since
she was eleven. I mean, this is such clear intent
to turn your cell phone off so it can't be pinned.
You know, I can'tn't even have time to erase texts
or emails, much less figure out how to turn off
(16:37):
location or location sharing or okay for for no, no, no,
I'm running from pillar to post, and he took the
time to turn his cell phone off. My point is
there's an avalanche of evidence and it must be marshaled
in order to move forward methodically with a trial. That
(16:58):
That's what I'm thinking about right now. And then, of
course we haven't even talked about the autopsy and the
hyoid bone.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
I can see you right now running down that hall
with gigantic posters and files. You know, I can see
you headed to that jury to show them. The piece
of evidence that is so gut wrenching is she was
wearing white socks when they found her. The bottom of
the socks were clean. That child did not walk anywhere
(17:35):
out of that house. And I know you would have
a picture of those socks for God and country look
at them. She didn't walk across grass, dirt, rocks, nothing.
She did not leave that house walking.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
I just all I can think about is this little
girl telling people, you know, when I'm old enough, I'm
going to go live in the woods. No wonder she
didn't want to live at home with her mother turning
a blind eye to her living raping her since she
was eleven. I've told you this story before, but my
front stoor neighbor, Joy Jones, told me what a period was.
(18:14):
I thought it was a joke. I started laughing, right,
No way, that's not gonna happen. What are you even
talking about from where?
Speaker 3 (18:22):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Like, what, Jolly's Jolly's crazy.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
I mean this little girl that, by the way, I
was seventeen in the halven. Anyway, this little girl's eleven,
eleven and she's getting raped on a nightly basis by
mommy's boyfriend and mommy's right there in the house. No
wonder she wanted to go live in the woods. I
mean this child and I look at her, and she's
(18:47):
got that sweet little smile. Those beautiful eyes tell you
I'm really not going to be happy until the mother's charged,
not gonna be happy until she's charged.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
He had over two thousand and of him abusing Madeline.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
He wasn't hiding it, Okay. So when I get like this,
all I can think of is how I can affect
the outcome of this for there to be a true verdict.
And it's giving me that feeling I had when I
tried cases, that feeling of being needing to be up
all night and awake and dressed to go by five
(19:27):
am to get to the courthouse to make everything just
right and have everything laid out before the jury got there.
You know, the worst thing, not the worst thing, but
a horrible, horrible move, is for you not to be
organized and methodical and have everything ready for the jury.
They hate bs and people wasting their time. So it's
(19:52):
going to take a lot to put this case on
a lot of evidence to Marshall. And that's what I'm
waiting to see. And it just just we keep hearing
more and more and more. For instance, like Jennifer Soto
saying that Stern's sexybus and her daughter was not evil.
H poor baby girl.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Your book gives such great advice for Oh, are.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
You're going to jump out and pretend like you read
the book Okay, go ahead. It's true. Though it's true
that it's got a lot of good advice, it's not
true that you read it. Should my calumn read a book?
What's not happening?
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Well, you know there was a time in high school
I would get not cliff notes, but Walt notes.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
You know what's funny. I wrote a book. It was
Death on the D List, and it involved a lot
a string of celebrity murders. And I'm not going to
tell you who did it, just in case you read it.
But David said, you know, this sounds a lot like
So and So. One of the one of the characters
(21:02):
was then producer who you know I loved in Siole,
But there were a lot of other not him because
I love him. But other TV characters in the book
were actually patterned after people I knew, or that I
had interacted with, or with whom I interacted with Cheryl
(21:26):
for you, and some of them were matched together to
create a character. And David shut up. David said, aren't
you worried? You know, if they're portrayed like this, they
might get mad at you. I'm like, you think TV
people would read a book? Okay, See, that's not happening. Okay,
(21:47):
they can't even know. Nobody's going to read a book.
I don't care if it's war in peace. That's my
told story Cheryl, not told story, told stoy. Okay. Anyway, Yeah,
I'm not afraid that Cheryl's going to miss the work
reading a book. But that said, she's the best forensic
(22:12):
expert I know, period, hands down, Cheryl. Oh, did I
tell you how proud I am of you and the
Wolfenbarger case. I am so overwhelmed by you cracking the
Melissa Wolfenburger case. I mean, the wolf of Burger case
(22:34):
was called for twenty plus years, never let go of it.
And when I say you aren't the best forensic expert,
and I.
Speaker 4 (22:43):
Know, I hope you're listen, Joe Scott Morgan, because not
only do you have the expertise, you have the heart
and the will power and the perseverance which all goes
together to crack.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
A cold case. And you did it. You did it, Cheryld.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
I appreciate that, Nancy, but I'm going to tell you
I have never done anything of substance in my life
by myself, and you have been there from day one.
So has Joe Scott Morgan and Angie Arnold and all
these other people that willingly gave their time and talents.
And you know what, when I look back on all
(23:26):
the people that said, yes, I will help, Yes I'll
give you my best advice or opinion or whatever, it
paid off. It paid off big. But you know, if
it weren't for you and saying hey, you need to
do a podcast, that witness would have never come forward.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
So full circle. Well, look here you go trying to
give other people the credit, but anybody listening today, Cheryl
did it. She led the charge the cases saw And
when I was with my Lissa's mother and sister just
recently with Cheryl, I was so I don't even have
(24:04):
the word to say. When I would look at her
mom and just suffering in her eyes, there were just
big pools of sorrow. But finally she knows her daughter's
killer is behind bars, and I know she probably doesn't
have words to thank you, so on behalf of everybody.
(24:24):
I am so grateful for you, Cheryl. You've been there
from the get go, and God will we'll be together
all the way till the end. I guess we'll be
on our rascals trying to solve cases.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
I'm gonna put a blue light on mine.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
Don't worry. I'll be saying move over be a gonna
solve itself. As soon as I hear.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Move over Bee, I'll be like, Naick, is that you?
Speaker 2 (25:00):
You know what's mean? Okay, I'm running up for bye.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
Buddy, Bye honey. I'm Cheryl McCollum and this is the
Prime Roundup with Zones Heaven
Welcome to the Crime Round Up. I'm Cheryl McCollum and
I am joined by the Queen herself, Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Good morning, Good morning, Good morning, Cheryl McCollum. Just so
much is happening right now. It's hard to pick on
what we should focus because you know, so much is happening.
And you know, a lot of people would say, you know,
that's that's great for you, and Cheryl got plenty to
talk about, but when you think about the people behind
(00:43):
our reporting and our investigations, it's very disturbing. And I'm
specifically referring to Maddie's so too. I mean, I just
I'm beside myself about the school shooting. When I look
at the photo of the little victim, you know, one
of multiple victims, I can hardly even think straight. And
(01:05):
at the same time, the Mattie Madeline Sautou case is
moving forward, and the more I learn, the more discussed
that I get.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
And you know, with Mattie's case, to me, it's something
that you and I preach all the time. Patterns, patterns, patterns.
Anytime somebody breaks a pattern that should be a flag.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
I'm just looking at the evidence, you know, in addition
to patterns, because a defense attorney can tear a pattern
to shreds if that's all you've got. One thing I
noticed is the I had didn't call my boyfriend, Stephan Stearns.
I'm thinking about hard evidence in the case, and I'm
thinking about the mother and her involvement, her alleged involvement.
(01:53):
For one thing, I noticed that the what we really
need is a giant timeline for a jury because no
one is commenting on it, but the fact that he
the mother's boyfriend to live in Stefan Stearns threw away
(02:15):
Maddie's backpack and laptop in a dumpster before her body
is found. And I was analyzing this last night in
preparation to talk to you this morning. And I've seen
that in multiple cases where the victims items, they're clothing,
their possessions are thrown away or sold while the victim's
(02:39):
still missing. Why because the perp knows they're not going
to be she won't need her backpack anymore, her little
school laptop. And this morning, when I was watching the twins,
at this point, I don't pack their backpacks anymore, but
I was watching them get their school laptops together before
they left. Of course that's bittersweet. I'm happy they're doing
(03:00):
it on their own. But Cheryl, till they were about
in the seventh grade, I put a toy in the
backpack every day with their with their snack, and they go,
is there a toy? And I said, the toy missed
you so much it jumped in your backpack. They actually
believe that, but until, like you know, they would never say, mom,
I'll believe that you did it. But they just look
(03:20):
at me like, Okay, we know you did it. And
I was just thinking about Maddie Madeline Soto getting ready
for school the day before and sometime, and I think
it's not when people think she was killed. I think
she was killed earlier.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Well, he's caught on video at the apartment complex, like
you said, at seven point thirty in the morning, dumping
her personal items. Well, that says to me she was
killed the night before.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Possibly yeah, And when the mother is asked, this is
why I'm going back to the mother. Do I think
the mother killed her? No, But I think that negligence
that ends in death, in my mind is a felony
murder because again, and I know I've said this many
many times, but it really can't be said enough. Felony
(04:14):
murder is very simply when a death occurs during the
commission of a felony, that's it. For instance, if you're
robbing a gas station and you run into the gas
tank itself and it blows up and it gives the
attendant inside the gas station as felony murder. You're committing
(04:36):
an armed robbery, which is a felony, and a death occurs.
That's a textbook example a felony murder. Hey, I got
to make it note of this whole on Mom felony
murder because I mean, how can you have your boyfriend
and he's been sleeping with her since she's eleven? How
do I know that? Because nearly two thousand images were
found on his cell phone? Yep, what an ahole is
(04:59):
definitely going to be in hell. But that's really not
enough for me. I want Tom in jail or the
death penalty now. Okay, Satan can have him later. I
want him now. So how do I work that? This
is something? I have to think long and hard about
taking this to a grand jury, charging Mom with felony
murder felony child negligence that ends in murder. I mean
(05:26):
the guys raping your daughter down the hall and then
she's dead by seven am. And what you sleep through
it because you have a migrain, you know what. Screw
you and the horse you rode in on there. That's
a technical legal term for you.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
That surely is. But Nancy, when she's asked about the abuse,
he says, the sex stuff, Oh, that wasn't evil.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
How would you not.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Be losing your mind to thank somebody that you cared about,
that you brought into your home, that you're preparing meals
for and washing his clothes and anything else you can
think of in that relationship, and he's harming your child
for years and you say it's not evil.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
That's that's what I'm saying, Cheryl. I just that degree
of negligence to me is a felony and she needs
to be charged of fellow him her. At the very beginning,
people are saying legal legals, Oh, it's not the mom's fault.
You know what kind of is? It is her fault
for a lot, For it's right under her nose. It's
(06:37):
not like it's happening away from the home and you
have no idea. It's right, it's twenty feet from.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Her, and she brought him in there. And here's the
other thing somebody should ask themselves. If this man is
footloose and fancy free, why you Why is he selecting
you to date, you to live with? When now he's
got to take on a twelve year old, an eleven
year old, a ten year old, however old she was
(07:05):
when they first started dating. Why would he do that?
You have to ask yourself. Is there an arterior motive
for him? Is he seeking you out because of Madeline?
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Well, you know all the studies have been done, Cheryl
McCollum that these predators seek out women with children so
they can get to the children. I mean, this is
not fantastical. It happens all the time, and it's hard
for people to believe. But I've seen it so many
times anecdotally, and I'm a statistic that says this happens
twenty five percent of the time in dating situations when
(07:39):
you have a single mom. And when I say it
happens all the time, I don't have a stat to
support that, but I've seen it personally so many times.
What does that mean, Cheryl? What can I prove with that? Nothing?
So you can't really bring statistics into court, you know.
That's how I see everything around me sadly, like, can
it come into court? Can I use it? What does
(08:02):
it prove? This is what it proves in my mind.
It proves to me that this is an age old
pattern and he had probably done it before, and that's
why he was dating the mom because we know he's
been based on the images on his phone, that he's
been raping her since she was eleven. Now, thinking about
the mom saying it wasn't evil, that just pushes me
(08:24):
over the bench.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
So again, if you're looking at that timeline, Sunday before
he supposedly was going to take her to school. Monday,
she celebrated her birthday. Here, you're having cake, you're all
dressed up, you're turning thirteen, you're finally a teenager. That's
a big deal. But mama's not even at the party
because mama's at work. Mamma gets home, she's exhausted, tells
(08:52):
her going to bed, and the next morning he's supposedly
dropping her at school, but they've got him on video
with the dumpster.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
Can we just t on just a mind right there.
I was just thinking about something that happened last night,
Cheryl McCollum. I had I was up up the last
two nights till about two, and you know, I get
up at five one day day before, day before, day
before yesterday, I had to have a root canal. Okay,
(09:22):
the next day yesterday I had to have foot surgery outpatient,
still foot surgery. So last night it's about midnight, Lucy,
I'm up reading about Mattie Soto and sitting up in
ben One light on in my room and Lucy comes
in and goes, Mom, I need a gilly suit tomorrow morning.
(09:47):
You know what a gilly suit is, right, It's like
the Marines wear when they're hiding out in a field
and they looked like a clump of leaves, but they're
actually a person. They're hiding under this like a giant
kate with eyeball with eye holes in it, and it's,
you know, like moss. I just looked at her. I thought,
(10:09):
your Lord in Heaven. And you know what I did.
I didn't say, girl, I'm tired. I got up with
my root canal and.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
My foot at a jive bend bandage, and I started
tromping through the house all in the basement of course
I found their Halloween outfits when they were three.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
But I mean I found plenty of those. I went
through from place to place, closet to closet. I didn't
find it. I thought I knew where it was, but
I didn't want to wake up John David. I snuck
around in his room with you know, the dim light
on your cellphone, trying to look in mixing cranny, but
I didn't want to wake him up. All right, this morning,
I wake him up at six. First thing, I'm like,
(10:50):
good morning, where's your Gilly suit? And he knew exactly
where the gilly suit was? And we got it, of course,
and she she took it to school. Why does she
want again suit? Okay, because somehow she's gotten in charge
of outfits to reenact Midsummer Night Dream Shakespeare's And I'm
(11:12):
not going to even ask why who's wearing a gilly suit?
But that said, and this mother could drag her sorry,
weary into a birthday party, you know, make the birthday
party two hours later for when you get home. And look,
I know how hard it is to get off. I
never ever took off at the DA's office ever, But
do it after do it the next day. It doesn't matter.
(11:35):
Be there for Pete's sake. Find the damn gilly suit.
Oh you've driven me to curse. I hope the twins
don't hear this. What can I expect from them? If
even I can't behave I tell you what. David's out
in the backyard right now. You know why because she said, well,
s h I t in front of the children. Can
(11:55):
I tell you how I nearly fell out if luks
could kill And I said, all right, go straight back
to the back. You're getting your mouth washed out with soap.
So then we had to, of course pretend I'm well,
actually I did put soap in his mouth. We had
to pretend he was kidding. Oh my goodness. Hopefully they
(12:15):
won't listen to his own seven.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Okay, you know again, for this situation, why not have
the birthday party Saturday? Most people do. It doesn't matter
the date. It matters that people are there that should
be there. So that was concerning for me as well.
But again the timeline birthday party, she went to bed.
He supposedly takes her to school, but they've got him
(12:37):
on the dumpster. But then Nancy, he comes back after
the seven point thirty where he's putting her backpack and
computer in the dumpster. He comes back a little after
eight o'clock. She's in the vehicle with him, but she's
slumped over.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
She's not slumped over, she's dead.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Can you imagine propping her body up and buckling it
in and then the mother you know, I'm sure you've
taken time to read my last book, Don't be a
victim Fighting Back against America's crime Wife. Listen, and that
I talk about when you take your children to various places,
(13:18):
you need to know what they're wearing. I know what
Lucy and John David are wearing. I even know what
John David's underwear looks like because the ladies closed out
last night. I don't tell anybody that because he can
do it himself. I do it because I'm oddly, weirdly
attached to doing all these things with them, like they
need me makes me feel better about myself. They don't
need me, Cheryl sadly, I need them. I get it. Yes,
(13:42):
I know what they're wearing. Yes, I know what color
their backpacks are. Yes, I know Carr they're in that.
How can you not know what your child is wearing
or what time you even saw them last. She gave
conflicting statements about when she even saw Maddie last. Remember,
at first the investigators religive believe she saw Mattie that morning.
(14:05):
And see that kind of an inconsistency can throw off
a murder investigation. I mean, it's the timeline, which I
can't harp on enough. If you start your timeline that
morning when she's dropped off at school, then you're screwed.
The timeline starts the time at the time she last
saw Maddie alive, which was the night before when she
(14:27):
sent her to bed with her live in Stephaon Stearns,
the rapist.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
And how about when police come to her and show
her his Google searches. He's looking up things that people
would use for anesthesia that would cause somebody to not remember,
things like that, you know, amnesia and her unable to
move her muscles.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
Are There's so many facts. This is why it takes
me so long to martial evidence. And what do I
mean by martial evidence? For instance, evidence that will prove
his lines that he can't be believed. You have to
do a whole list, a whole demonstrative piece of evidence.
Poster overhead whatever. I never like to do power points
(15:13):
because I was afraid the Drew would go to sleep
during that. I like to do posters and HANMD make
them myself so I can look at them and make
sure they're awake. You know, after lunch especially, they go
down to that good old courthouse cafeteria and get full
on a bunch of carbs and come back and go
straight to sleep in the jury.
Speaker 3 (15:28):
Box hub l No, not on my watch, nobody's going
to sleep.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
But there's so much evidence. You got to do a
whole analysis of the timeline. You've got to then overlay
the timeline with his movements that we know of. There
you have to add in the video of him, what
time was that the tag reader? What time was that
when he allegedly went to a vape shot, when he
(15:57):
allegedly went to McDonald's. When he's caught on me once
video quote dropping her off. All that has to be
laid in. You know when he oh, I love this,
he's turned his cell phone off, just like Hoburger and
so many others I shall not name.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
He tried to factory reset it the same day as
you went missing.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Yeah, I mean in this day and age, you turn
your cell phone off at the same exact time a
murder goes down of a girl you've been raping since
she was eleven. I mean, this is such clear intent
to turn your cell phone off so it can't be pinned.
You know, I can'tn't even have time to erase texts
or emails, much less figure out how to turn off
(16:37):
location or location sharing or okay for for no, no, no,
I'm running from pillar to post, and he took the
time to turn his cell phone off. My point is
there's an avalanche of evidence and it must be marshaled
in order to move forward methodically with a trial. That
(16:58):
That's what I'm thinking about right now. And then, of
course we haven't even talked about the autopsy and the
hyoid bone.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
I can see you right now running down that hall
with gigantic posters and files. You know, I can see
you headed to that jury to show them. The piece
of evidence that is so gut wrenching is she was
wearing white socks when they found her. The bottom of
the socks were clean. That child did not walk anywhere
(17:35):
out of that house. And I know you would have
a picture of those socks for God and country look
at them. She didn't walk across grass, dirt, rocks, nothing.
She did not leave that house walking.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
I just all I can think about is this little
girl telling people, you know, when I'm old enough, I'm
going to go live in the woods. No wonder she
didn't want to live at home with her mother turning
a blind eye to her living raping her since she
was eleven. I've told you this story before, but my
front stoor neighbor, Joy Jones, told me what a period was.
(18:14):
I thought it was a joke. I started laughing, right,
No way, that's not gonna happen. What are you even
talking about from where?
Speaker 3 (18:22):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Like, what, Jolly's Jolly's crazy.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
I mean this little girl that, by the way, I
was seventeen in the halven. Anyway, this little girl's eleven,
eleven and she's getting raped on a nightly basis by
mommy's boyfriend and mommy's right there in the house. No
wonder she wanted to go live in the woods. I
mean this child and I look at her, and she's
(18:47):
got that sweet little smile. Those beautiful eyes tell you
I'm really not going to be happy until the mother's charged,
not gonna be happy until she's charged.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
He had over two thousand and of him abusing Madeline.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
He wasn't hiding it, Okay. So when I get like this,
all I can think of is how I can affect
the outcome of this for there to be a true verdict.
And it's giving me that feeling I had when I
tried cases, that feeling of being needing to be up
all night and awake and dressed to go by five
(19:27):
am to get to the courthouse to make everything just
right and have everything laid out before the jury got there.
You know, the worst thing, not the worst thing, but
a horrible, horrible move, is for you not to be
organized and methodical and have everything ready for the jury.
They hate bs and people wasting their time. So it's
(19:52):
going to take a lot to put this case on
a lot of evidence to Marshall. And that's what I'm
waiting to see. And it just just we keep hearing
more and more and more. For instance, like Jennifer Soto
saying that Stern's sexybus and her daughter was not evil.
H poor baby girl.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Your book gives such great advice for Oh, are.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
You're going to jump out and pretend like you read
the book Okay, go ahead. It's true. Though it's true
that it's got a lot of good advice, it's not
true that you read it. Should my calumn read a book?
What's not happening?
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Well, you know there was a time in high school
I would get not cliff notes, but Walt notes.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
You know what's funny. I wrote a book. It was
Death on the D List, and it involved a lot
a string of celebrity murders. And I'm not going to
tell you who did it, just in case you read it.
But David said, you know, this sounds a lot like
So and So. One of the one of the characters
(21:02):
was then producer who you know I loved in Siole,
But there were a lot of other not him because
I love him. But other TV characters in the book
were actually patterned after people I knew, or that I
had interacted with, or with whom I interacted with Cheryl
(21:26):
for you, and some of them were matched together to
create a character. And David shut up. David said, aren't
you worried? You know, if they're portrayed like this, they
might get mad at you. I'm like, you think TV
people would read a book? Okay, See, that's not happening. Okay,
(21:47):
they can't even know. Nobody's going to read a book.
I don't care if it's war in peace. That's my
told story Cheryl, not told story, told stoy. Okay. Anyway, Yeah,
I'm not afraid that Cheryl's going to miss the work
reading a book. But that said, she's the best forensic
(22:12):
expert I know, period, hands down, Cheryl. Oh, did I
tell you how proud I am of you and the
Wolfenbarger case. I am so overwhelmed by you cracking the
Melissa Wolfenburger case. I mean, the wolf of Burger case
(22:34):
was called for twenty plus years, never let go of it.
And when I say you aren't the best forensic expert,
and I.
Speaker 4 (22:43):
Know, I hope you're listen, Joe Scott Morgan, because not
only do you have the expertise, you have the heart
and the will power and the perseverance which all goes
together to crack.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
A cold case. And you did it. You did it, Cheryld.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
I appreciate that, Nancy, but I'm going to tell you
I have never done anything of substance in my life
by myself, and you have been there from day one.
So has Joe Scott Morgan and Angie Arnold and all
these other people that willingly gave their time and talents.
And you know what, when I look back on all
(23:26):
the people that said, yes, I will help, Yes I'll
give you my best advice or opinion or whatever, it
paid off. It paid off big. But you know, if
it weren't for you and saying hey, you need to
do a podcast, that witness would have never come forward.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
So full circle. Well, look here you go trying to
give other people the credit, but anybody listening today, Cheryl
did it. She led the charge the cases saw And
when I was with my Lissa's mother and sister just
recently with Cheryl, I was so I don't even have
(24:04):
the word to say. When I would look at her
mom and just suffering in her eyes, there were just
big pools of sorrow. But finally she knows her daughter's
killer is behind bars, and I know she probably doesn't
have words to thank you, so on behalf of everybody.
(24:24):
I am so grateful for you, Cheryl. You've been there
from the get go, and God will we'll be together
all the way till the end. I guess we'll be
on our rascals trying to solve cases.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
I'm gonna put a blue light on mine.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
Don't worry. I'll be saying move over be a gonna
solve itself. As soon as I hear.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Move over Bee, I'll be like, Naick, is that you?
Speaker 2 (25:00):
You know what's mean? Okay, I'm running up for bye.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
Buddy, Bye honey. I'm Cheryl McCollum and this is the
Prime Roundup with Zones Heaven
Host
Sheryl McCollum
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