Karen Reed & Ellen Greenberg | Case Analysis, Forensic Missteps & A Day In The Life Of A Pathologist with Nicole Angemi & Maria Q. Kane - Zone 7 with Sheryl McCollum

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
Mordecai vivos docent the dead, teach the living. That's one
of her mottos. And I tell you, after twenty years
of dissecting bodies Nicole and Jimmy a Philly girl, as
a pathologist assistant, she knows what she's talking about. She

(00:28):
posts her work on Instagram, y'all, and she has got
over two million followers. One of the reasons is mystery Monday's.
We're going to get into that in a minute. But
she wrote the book as far as I'm concerned, and
the title Anatomy Book, a catalog of familiar, rare and

(00:50):
unusual pathologies. She has three daughters, married to a firefighter.
She's got her bs and master's degree. She is double
board certified as a pathologist assistant and cyto technologist. I
don't even know if I'm saying that right. I learned
that word about two days ago. Okay, well, you know

(01:13):
there's so much we could learn. I'm just telling you
there's new terminology, there's things that she has told me.
There are things that are in her book. I've never
heard of it, never seen it. It is amazing. But
the real gift is tonight we got the second generation

(01:34):
joining us too. Maria Caine. Honey. She has got a
degree in photography. She's a fantastic photographer. She is a podcaster.
She and her mom have the podcast Mother Knows Death.
It is awesome. I've been fortunate enough to be a guest.
They do amazing work. Maria is the producer the writer

(01:56):
for the Grossroom, where every week she and her mom
talk about freak accidents, crazy injuries, diseases, and murders. Y'all,
this is going to be a training day like no other.
They are both stunning. Oh my gosh, you have no idea.
They are both stunning. They're young, they're hip, and they

(02:18):
cannot be grossed out. So to me, they are my
kind of people. Please help me. Welcome Nicole and Maria
to Zone seven.

Speaker 2 (02:29):
Thank you so much.

Speaker 3 (02:30):
Thanks for having us, Cheryl. We are so excited about
these topics we're going to talk about today.

Speaker 1 (02:36):
Absolutely listen. I had so much fun hanging out with
y'all at Crime Con at the barbecue dinner, y'all, I've
never laughed so hard in my life. When they start
talking about things that Nicole has pulled out of bodies,
like bullets and implants and things out of people's fanny. Listen.

(02:59):
It ain't everybody that can have that conversation with you
where you learn something, but it's also fascinating and you
know down the road it's going to help you on
an investigation and you get to laugh the whole time
you're doing it. Not at people, I want to be
very clear, but at the circumstance, if you're telling me

(03:21):
this person swallowed a particular coin and now that may
relate to a case, I need to know that. I
need to know what to ask somebody to even look
for and be sure they tell me. So I have
just been so captivated by both of you and could
not wait for tonight. I couldn't wait so much. I

(03:43):
think Nicole and I have talked multiple times on the phone,
texted each other, and even emailed because it was way
out of bounds for you know, a text message or
a phone call. So if it's two in the morning
and I just had to tell her something else I
was excited about that I wanted her to bring up.
I mean, I had to just get that communication out.
So thank you both for being here.

Speaker 3 (04:04):
Of course, anytime we want to be on all the time.
We have so much to talk about.

Speaker 1 (04:09):
We do and listen. First things first, right out of
the gate, and Nicole, I'm going to start with you.
I hear people say all the time, Oh, I just
want to die in my sleep. I just want to
go to bed and drift off and be done with it,
with all that you've been exposed to. Do you secretly

(04:30):
have a way you hope you go.

Speaker 3 (04:32):
I have a lot of ways I hope I don't go.
If that's helpful, fair enough? I mean, ultimately, yes, everybody,
the dream would be to be ninety eight years old
in your sleep, with your fam, your family surrounded by
you and everything. But as we see in this profession,
we see a lot of people that are not that

(04:52):
fortunate to die in that way. There's a lot of
natural diseases that I definitely do not wish on anyone.
But there's also many other forensic ones that are accidents
and definitely homicides that I don't wish on my worst enemy.

Speaker 1 (05:10):
Absolutely, Maria mac to.

Speaker 2 (05:13):
Be a romantic. I always tell my husband that you
know in the notebook, when the couple's old and die
hand in hand at the end, that would be probably
the most ideal way for me.

Speaker 1 (05:22):
So okay, I'm going to accept that. I appreciate it. No.

Speaker 3 (05:28):
See, I tell Gabe all the time that that I
definitely have to die before he does because I will
not be able to handle.

Speaker 2 (05:34):
It unless you could go out together.

Speaker 1 (05:37):
Exactly. I think Maria's good for the kids. Yes, well
that's true too.

Speaker 3 (05:42):
You won't be able to handle that.

Speaker 1 (05:44):
And you know, it's so funny. My old partner, Leslie,
we always laugh because she says, you know what if
I were just to go out peaceful, that just seems antiicomactic, Like, really,
that's it. After all we've done. There's not even a
good story like a shark attack. So there is, you know,

(06:04):
many sides to this thing. But listen, let's jump into
this because I am I'm just on the edge of
my seat wanting to hear everything y'all have to say,
because y'all we are going to talk about Karen Reid
and I know that y'all know, but just in case
there's one person that has missed this case somehow, Karen

(06:24):
Reid is on trial right now in Massachusetts for the
murder of her boyfriend John o'keeth. This started January twenty eighth,
twenty twenty two. John was found in the snow, located
by Karen Reid and two of her friends that had
been searching for him because he didn't return home after

(06:46):
a night out. They had all been together drinking, having
a good time, and she dropped him off at a
friend's house. She went home and he never returned home.
The first trial ended in a misusal. Some of y'all
will remember I called it and the reason I called it,
and I'm going to say again, it was not about

(07:08):
her guilt or innocence. It was about the state had
not proven murder, not even close in my opinion. The
next case, Ellen Greenberg, January twenty sixth, twenty eleven, During
a blizzard in Philadelphia, Ellen decides to leave work early

(07:30):
to get home. By six forty She's pronounced dead of
twenty stab wounds, half in her back and neck. She
had eleven bruises in various stages of healing. The body
was discovered by her fiance. The apartment was allegedly locked

(07:51):
and dead bolted. Her fiance had to break in, just
bust down the door. Now this case gets crazy because
at first the examiner said it was homicide. The police said, no,
it's suicide, and they have recently come out and adjusted
it and said it was anything but suicide. Well, I'm

(08:11):
going to tell you right now, anything but suicide don't
make no sense because it wasn't an accident, it wasn't natural.
So we have got Nicole and Maria here and they
are going to break this down. And so I want
to start with you, Nicole, with the manner of death,
and you just go from there. However you want to

(08:34):
drive this train, how you personally have seen some connections,
similarities disputes with these two cases.

Speaker 3 (08:43):
All right, I'm going to start off with Karen Reid
because I'm gonna be honest with you. I've been very
ignorant to this case and had basically no idea anything
about this case, which I like because I didn't get
tainted by anyone on social media. I've seen all the
crazy as going on, but I didn't know what any
of it meant because I didn't know about this case

(09:04):
that much. So I really, I mean, I know the
story you just told, but I didn't really dig deep
into it like I do with most other cases. So
I've been very immersed in Karen Reid for the past
two days, for about sixteen hours at least probably, and
we have a lot to talk about a lot. Okay,

(09:26):
So first you were saying that they weren't able to
determine that it was homicide. Well, I don't even understand
how they were able to even arrest her on that
when the medical examiner said that it was an undetermined
manner of death. So I don't even understand that right now.
So for people listening that might not fully understand this,

(09:49):
there's only five manners of death that could be listed
on the death certificate, which is natural suicide, accident, homicide,
and then there's another category called undetermined, which medical examiners
never ever want to use because it leaves a lot
of questions, like in this particular case, so they only
use it when they're absolutely desperate and they don't know

(10:12):
really what happened. And in this case, they saw injuries
that could have been caused by an accident, but could
have been caused by someone trying to hurt somebody or
from blunt trauma. So that right there, I don't even understand.
I mean, that's more your thing with arresting people and

(10:32):
all that. I don't really understand how you could go
from we don't know how the guy died to we're
arresting this lady because we think that she's responsible for
his death.

Speaker 1 (10:42):
Right in my personal opinion professional opinion, I never saw murder.
I never saw it. Even if she hit him with
the car, I never believed it was on purpose. Meaning
they never showed me evidence that that's what happened. So
if I didn't see an accident, I sure lord didn't

(11:05):
say a murder.

Speaker 3 (11:06):
Okay, I one hundred percent agree with you there. So
going through when the autopsy starts, the medical examiner had
she had some guests at the autopsy. So this is
actually a question that I have for you because I
wasn't sure of this, but I've been at the medical
Examiner's office. When cops get killed on duty and there's

(11:28):
there's a procession they take the cops that all of
the police follow them there. It's it's very you know,
it's very ritual thing they do. I don't know what
happens when a cop dies off duty, but in this
particular situation, there shouldn't have been co workers, friends' acquaintances
at the autopsy because that right there taints.

Speaker 1 (11:51):
The autopsy understood.

Speaker 3 (11:53):
What I'm trying to say is that she has. She's
being told a lot of stories by people that are
on a certain side while she's doing the autopsy instead
of just looking at the scientific evidence analytically and not
making any kind of preconceived ideas of what happened there.
So that kind of bothered me a little bit. Right there,

(12:17):
we'll talk about some of the injuries that we saw
at the autopsy. So there was rib fractures, and like
you said, he was found down, but he was still
alive when he was found barely alive, but he was
technically alive. His heart was still beating. And Karen had

(12:38):
gotten out of the car and attempted to do CPR
on him, and she probably she's a finance person, right,
she pro doesn't even know how to do CPR. So
it's common that you would break someone's rib because you
don't do it right. Even people that do it wright
break ribs sometimes. So if you see rib fractures at
autopsy on a person that had CPR, that that doesn't
indicate any kind of trauma to me as far as

(13:01):
I'm concerned. He had a couple of weird bruises on
his hands, but they were on the door some of
the hand, which is the top of your hand, and
anybody if you ever think when did you ever get
a bruise there, that's always because of getting your blood
taken or getting an IV put in. And we know
he was technically alive when he was found, so that

(13:23):
would be an indication that would cause bruising. So I'm
not worried about those bruises on his hands. Now, he
had two different significant things that were considered to be
so even though she said it was an undetermined manner
of death, she said that the cause of death was
because of number one, this head injury that he had,
and number two hypothermia. So first we're going to start

(13:45):
with the head injury. So when you look at when
an average person looks at a person in this condition,
he looks like he got punched in both of his eyes.
Both of his eyes are black and blue. What you
would think would be a typical black eye, but actually
he does and have true black eyes, meaning that he
got some kind of trauma that caused that. On the

(14:06):
eye itself. What happens is is sometimes you could have
a really bad skull fracture at the base of your
skull and that let's think about this, the skull is
made up of twenty two bones, believe it or not,
and they're all they're all fused together and stuck together
by these little squeggly lines. I'm sure you've seen them.

(14:29):
One of skull called futures.

Speaker 1 (14:30):
I just didn't realize it was twenty two.

Speaker 3 (14:33):
Oh yeah, there's a lot of them. There's a lot
of little bones there. So, but they're all stuck together.
But when you have trauma to it, they are a
source of weakness. Those little the attachments of the little bones,
and they could fracture. So the base of the skull fractures,
and then blood seeps into the tissues and goes into
the eyes, so it's kind of underneath the eyes. They're

(14:54):
called bilateral peri orbital echimosis, which sounds crazy, also known
as raccoon eyes. What you would call it for you know,
a lay person. So when you look at him, it
looks like someone beat the crap out of his face,
but that's not the case. He does have a laceration
on the back of his head and an abrasion surrounding that.

(15:17):
So laceration is a tear in the skin caused by
blunt trauma. So that could be caused by someone hitting
him over the head with a baseball bat, for example,
and the bat the blunt object of the bat against
the blunt skull and just the skin straight against the
skull would cause the skin to split. That could also

(15:38):
happen from falling down backwards. So a good example for
the audience is this just happened to Bob Zagat a
couple of years ago. When he died. He was he
was at a hotel, he was having a show. He
fell out of he got out of bed, he fell,
he hit the back of his head. He had a
basil or skull fracture, and that was what ended up

(16:00):
being his cause of death there. So, like you could
see with Bob Saggat, young guy, he didn't have to
have really too much trauma in order to have that
kind of a skull fracture. He just fell down and
hit his head either on the bedposter on the ground.
So it's a similar thing in this case. He just
had this kind of a slit on the back of

(16:22):
his head. It doesn't really look like much, but that's
what caused this brain injury. So the medical examiner is saying, Okay,
so he had this brain injury. It wasn't enough to
kill him, but it was enough for him to be
down in the snow and not be able to get up,
and he could have even been unconscious. Right now, this
is where I have a lot of questions. We're going

(16:46):
to go to the hypothermia part of it, and then
we maybe let's go let's do the arms first before
we get to the hypothermia. So he has injuries on
his arms that the medical examiner described as abrasions, which
an abrasion, a fancy word for or a regular word

(17:07):
for abrasion, is a scrape. So when you're a little
kid and you're running and you scrape your knee, that's
what it looks like. It has a very distinct look
and it's very superficial. She's saying that he has abrasions.
I look at them, and no, I absolutely would not
describe them as abrasions. There's been so obviously during the case,

(17:28):
there's been a lot brought up about there being some
kind of an animal attack, a large animal, possibly a dog,
and I can kind of more go with that as
far as the appearance of these wounds. If you talk
about forensic dog bite analysis, which is a thing, these

(17:48):
wounds have very specific looking appearance because of the shape
of the teeth and the way that dogs attack. So
the medical examiner in this case said that he didn't
have any self defense wounds, meaning if he was fighting,
if he was in a fistfight with somebody, there would
be evidence on his half that his knuckles might be

(18:09):
bloody or he might look like he was putting up
a struggle. But I would argue that he does have
self defense wounds, but it's against an animal, because that's
where a dog would if you were trying to get
a dog off you, you would have claw marks and
bite marks on your arm, especially your dominant arm.

Speaker 1 (18:28):
And here's the thing about that, when you start talking
about a scrape, there's no comparing what anybody would interpret
as a scrape to the injury to his arm or
the injuries to his arm. And for me, and I
want to ask you this, they're all they got two lines.
For the most part, those lines are parallel, and they're

(18:51):
going slightly in different directions, which to me would be
indicative of an animal attack as well, if his arm
is moving and the animal is moving. And the pieces
of glass that they showed, I could not see one
that would have two protruding pieces of like the little

(19:12):
triangle on the ends that would have scratched his arm
in that manner. Not one of the samples that I saw.

Speaker 3 (19:19):
So I'm curious because, like I said, I am mostly
ignorant to this case because I don't care. The way
I look at things is like I don't really care
what the evidence is because what I see is what
I see, and I don't care what you're trying to
tell me I see, because that's not it, you know.
So they were trying to say it was either a
piece of the broken the plastic of the headlight, or

(19:42):
from the glass he was holding. Absolutely not, absolutely not.
So the dog bites have a very specific look. They're
a V shape. Look at those wounds. I don't know
if you have a picture of it right in front
of you. They just have a very specific shape that
their V and they have these deep furrows that it's

(20:05):
almost like a tunnel that's pulled down from the dog's
tooth as the person's trying to pull their arm off.
It's just so specific looking that it's But listen from
the medical examiner's perspective, she's hearing that this guy was
a hit and run. That's all she's hearing. She's not

(20:26):
even thinking there's a dog anywhere near it. She's not
thinking of any other thing that could have happened, because
they're convinced that this lady backed up into him. That's
what I'm saying, Like she shouldn't have had that inner
ear when she was looking at it because she wasn't thinking,
because that's not an abrasion.

Speaker 1 (20:48):
If I can just ask Maria something, I know that
you are young, and you're probably much more skilled in
social media than anybody else. Did you see on social
media just the divide on this case, like there was
no gray area. You were either tame Karen or tame

(21:10):
John and that was it. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (21:13):
And I think we're experiencing a similar thing with Blake
Lively and justin Baldoni lawsuit, where it's your one way
or the other. And I think generally speaking, we're living
in this society where if you don't feel or think
the same way I do, then you're my enemy. And
I think we're getting in this really toxic world of
this on social media. And because true crime is so

(21:36):
popular right now with social media and the Internet, everybody
thinks they're a detective so I think when everybody's on
these Reddit forums and x and Instagram, they get any
hint of something being a miss and they have to
go into the deepest possible conspiracies about that and look

(21:57):
into it. And I think because of that, with the
history of corruption within the Boston Police Department, with the
fact that Karen Reid is a beautiful female murder defendant,
they didn't take proper protocol. I think it's really hard
for people to be on the side of the prosecution
because of all these missteps they took.

Speaker 1 (22:19):
Listen, I was very vocal. I did not think they
would even retry her. I don't know ethically how they could. Now. Again,
I want to be clear, I am not talking about
whether she did or didn't do something. I'm talking about
the evidence that was presented, which for a homicide wasn't there.

(22:41):
It could not meet the standard of a homicide, and Nicole,
to your point, I don't know how they arrested her
in the first place.

Speaker 3 (22:49):
It's really boggling my mind. And the forensics just seemed
really kind of sloppy here, and I hate.

Speaker 1 (22:56):
To say that, it just well, I don't let me
tell you something. For every single detective listening to me.
For every rookie officer listening to me. When you have
the quote homicide of a fellow police officer and your
lead detective doesn't go to the crime scene, I wouldn't
accept that in a movie. I would say, this movie

(23:18):
is silly, that doesn't even make any sense. Find something
else this happened, and the other thing that bothers me.
And again, I know, Nicole, you already said, you know
that's not what you look at, and I get it.
But in my world, I have to look at it
because I have to take what you tell me and
what other people's actions are so that I can have
a totality of what occurred and a complete understanding. You're

(23:42):
telling me that a friend of yours died in your
front yard and you never came outside. Not a shot
that's happening. You're going to come outside if a stranger
died on your front yard, much less somebody that was
your in, much less a police officer.

Speaker 3 (24:03):
I just I can't. I can't believe they did not
go in the house. I just can't believe it. I
can't wrap my brain around it that they didn't think, oh,
there's a there's a dead guy. On your lawn and
you're not going to go check what's happening in the
house that he was supposed to be at. That This
is why nobody this is why you got to dissect

(24:25):
it out, because nobody's going to trust you at your
face value, you know.

Speaker 1 (24:29):
So let me ask you this. When you're looking at
the ribs and you notice, okay, he's got some rib fractors,
but no bruising on his abdomen, that makes you say
CPR more than he was hit by a car.

Speaker 3 (24:43):
Well, you can get bruising with CPR, too, but it's
just more the location. It's right where the ribs meet
the stern on. It's just a very typical location that
you would see CPR injury. And I really don't I
don't think that he had any sign that he was
in an actual fistfight. What is really a potential possibility

(25:06):
is that he did get attacked somehow by the dog
and then fell backwards and hit his head. I mean,
that's all I could think of right now. Although his body,
I don't really have one hundred percent of scenario of
what did happen. I could just tell you what absolutely didn't.

Speaker 2 (25:22):
Happen, but well, you're questioning the hypothermia timeline.

Speaker 3 (25:26):
Yeah, I mean that's for me, that's the biggest part
of the case. And I couldn't even find anything of
anybody even questioning this. So I want to bring this
up to you because according to their timeline, he got
dropped off twelve thirty ish and then they found him
at six o'clock, so that would be five and a

(25:46):
half hours he was outside. So it just seems there's
a lot of different things that happens when you're out
in the cold, and to forensics and new in law
of cooling and everything like that, it just doesn't seem

(26:07):
possible even a little bit, like the timeline is way off.
So let me give you an example. If you're talking
about new in law of cooling, a person that's one
hundred and seventy six pounds in twenty five degree weather
with an air and wind of ten miles an hour,
they should be at mild hypothermia at a half hour,

(26:32):
moderate at one hour, severe at one point five hours,
and in two and a half hours they should be dead. Okay,
Now I don't know how much he weighed, so if
he weighed more, the times would be different. But there's
also so many other things that would accelerate this. In
his case, for example, he was drunk. Alcohol accelerates this.

(26:54):
He was incapacitated with his head injury. The reason that
you stay alive when you're outside is because you're shivering
and it creates heat. That's what keeps you going. Because
the whole point is is that you want the blood
flow to stay around the organs, to keep the organs
warm because they have to be at homeostasis at ninety

(27:14):
eight degrees and they if they're lower, they're not going
to function. So what happens is all the blood vessels
in the body they shrink up and they send all
of the blood to your torso basically because at that
point you're in survival mode and your body is just like, hey,
I don't need these arms and legs anymore, Like we
need to keep these organs warm. Right, So he should

(27:36):
have signs of frostbite being outside so long, just things
that I mean, I saw pictures of his hands. It
doesn't look like he really has anything that severe. And
then so the alcohol, the not shivering, not being dressed
appropriately for the weather, he was literally laying on ice

(27:57):
with a didn't have a t shirt and hoodie on
over top of it, no coat, right, so that makes
it even even more susceptible because his body wasn't covered properly.
And then on top of that, there was an active
blizzard going on, a blizzard with high winds and snow,
at least three inches of snow at that time. I

(28:20):
think that day it snowed almost over twenty inches within
twenty four hours, but that was seemed to be the
beginning of the snowstorm. But that way more than ten
mile an hour winds. So just according to forensic literature,
it just seems that that timeline is impossible. What do
you think about that? I mean, I would I would say,

(28:42):
which puts us more around two and a half hours.
And then you're thinking, okay, well, then let's think about
other things that were going on around that time, round
three something in the morning. The plow driver drove by
at that time and said he didn't see anybody on
the lawn. And I don't know if they've bunk these
things that I'm just saying, certain things that I saw

(29:03):
come up. But the most important thing was this this
Google search, which have they debunked that? Because I know
that she was saying she opened her browser at that time,
but that could be bullshit, right.

Speaker 1 (29:14):
Like, yeah, I could, And here's the deal. The jury
didn't buy it, she walked out. What you're saying, though,
to me is really interesting because even if he weighed
two hundred pounds and had on a jacket, it's not
going to change the time to get them to six
o'clock in the morning.

Speaker 3 (29:32):
No, absolutely not, There's no way. And on top of that,
he wasn't even dead, he was alive, so he got
brought When he got brought to the hospital, they said
his temperature was eighty degrees So according to that chart
I just talked about, that would bring him at eighty

(29:53):
degrees temperature of his body. That would bring him to
be outside for only an hour an hour and a half.

Speaker 1 (29:58):
Yeah, I haven't heard any break down the hypothermia, no one, So.

Speaker 3 (30:04):
That bothers me that nobody brought that up.

Speaker 2 (30:07):
Well, I think it's interesting too, because there's all these
phone calls placed in the middle of the night between
the people and the house. There's the Google search, which
I guess we don't know the actual confirmed time of that,
but it doesn't look good either way. But I think
it is suspicious when you break down just the basic
forensics of that mix with other circumstantial things that maybe

(30:30):
didn't seem like that big of a deal until you
put that in perspective.

Speaker 1 (30:33):
That's right. If you're researching how long it takes somebody
to die of hypothermia at two twenty seven and you
know somebody's already calling looking for him, you don't have
that long that. You don't have four hours, five hours,
six hours, you don't have it.

Speaker 3 (30:50):
This is not something that a person that was planning
this would think of. I just all of the things together,
you just have to question it. But that would be
really My biggest question is is the timeline. The timeline,
I mean it's they have documentation of his temperature and
they know how it works. They also from twelve am

(31:12):
to six am that night. I look this up, so
this is already this is already documented. The temperature was
between It started at twenty eight degrees at twelve o'clock
and decrease to eighteen degrees, So it was even colder
than the temperature that I stated for the general times
for the chart. So they have these measurable things that

(31:37):
they could easily figure this out.

Speaker 1 (31:40):
Just to remind everybody there was so much snow law
enforcement could not find the broken tail light for days,
and then they had to go back with the snowblower
to even remove all of the snow that had fallen.
So again, to your point, you're laying on ice, then
snow's covering you. With the massive chill factor of the wind,

(32:05):
he should have been much more frozen. Okay, well, let's
bring in Ellen Greenberg.

Speaker 2 (32:12):
All right.

Speaker 3 (32:12):
So when I was writing Maria and I were writing
up this case the past couple of days, we were thinking,
oh my god, there's so many similarities to Ellen Greenberg case,
which is one that we wrote up years ago. I mean,
we're Philly people, so we know all about it. I
actually when I rotated at the Medical Examiner's office when

(32:34):
I was in PA school, Galina was the chief. I
was there with him, and I went to Drexel and
Marlon was a resident there when I was there, So
I know these people all involved with this case, and
I know how things worked there during that time as well.
So shit showed to say the least, as far as

(32:57):
I'm concerned. But the similar to me are the initial
steps of the investigation. We're not we're not done to protocol,
and that's what's leaving all of these questions. You mentioned
this earlier in the episode that Marlin called the he

(33:19):
first saw that, it said it was his homicide. That
was his first impression, which if he was looking at
the body. This is why I was saying, it doesn't
really matter to an extent the circumstances, because if you're
a true scientist and you're just looking at what you're
looking at, you really shouldn't be able to look at

(33:41):
one body and say, oh, this could be homicide or
this could be suicide. If you're good, if you know
what you're doing and you're good. So his initial impression
was that it was homicide, and then people came over
and put some ideas in his head, and then he
was like, well, let me see if I could just
make it be a suicide then, because that's what they

(34:04):
want it to be. You know, you can't do that.
So he really kind of bowed down. But also he
was junior, and maybe other people I don't know who
was putting pressure on him or whatever, but that's that's
what happened, and they had go ahead.

Speaker 2 (34:19):
Ray I was gonna just say, I think the similarity.
The biggest similarity with the Karen Reid case is they
went into it being like, she obviously must have hit him.
And I think that with Ellen Greenberg too, they just
went into it, oh, this must be a suicide. So
when you go into it thinking it's one tape of way,
you're not taking the protocol, the proper protocol, and the

(34:41):
correct steps to look at it from a non biased
angle to really determine what happened. And I think a
lot of the sloppy work came in at that point,
because you know, they go into this house, they assume
it's a suicide, crime scene cleanups, and they're so they've
never looked at things like this, And I just think
because of these details and the scene with Karen read,

(35:02):
they're overlooking a lot of really important evidence because they
already have determined that it went down this one particular way. Right.

Speaker 1 (35:10):
And listen, here's what gets me when I start a
case and Nicole, I know this is and where you are.
I get it. But the nine one one call is
really important to me. And when he gains entry and
he says he has to bust in and he sees

(35:30):
her immediately and there's blood everywhere. As he's talking to
the dispatcher, he all of a sudden says, there's a knife.
There's a knife sticking out of her chest. Immediately he says,
she stabbed herself. Now I don't know about y'all, but
most people would not readily accept that their loved one

(35:55):
has killed themselves. Then he offers, almost immediately a second possibility,
because the dispatcher said she stabbed herself, and he goes,
or she fell on it. Never does he say somebody
killed her. He will offer you two possibilities. But it

(36:17):
didn't murder. He doesn't even want to say that out loud.
So the person that is about to marry her and
spend the rest of his life with her readily accept
she killed herself or she fell on the knife. And incidentally,
she would have had to fall on it twenty times.

Speaker 2 (36:36):
Well, I just want to say, in defense of that statement,
I don't I have a really hard time with this
case how to feel based on everything we've covered, and
I mean, we've gone in depth about this, but a
big part of this story that nobody's talking about was
her history of being on various psychotic drugs and a
short amount of time, So I think there is a

(36:58):
my old possibility that he was aware of her mental state,
and that's why subconsciously he just threw that out there immediately.

Speaker 1 (37:06):
I'm just saying it's unusual. So in a now one
one call that would have leaped out at me even
before I found out about her mental state and I
and I did hear and maybe him not being able
to gain entry, maybe having a break in, maybe he
was already thinking something's not right, something's not okay, and
with the door being you know, bolted, could be Yeah.

Speaker 3 (37:32):
For this case, I just think Maria definitely has a point,
and she did have some searches that were questionable as well,
which all is to be expected when she was on
the she was on a crazy cocktail of medications in
a short period of time. There are documented cases of
people having psychosis and and killing themselves with a knife

(37:56):
and stabbing themselves to death. This is all. It's not
out of the realm of possibility. It's definitely rare, and
it's very even more rare for a woman to do it,
but it happens and it's documented. The whole point, though,
is is that the way that the investigation has been
handled is what's making people say, wait, maybe that's not

(38:18):
what really happened.

Speaker 1 (38:23):
When you start breaking it down for people to call,
and you say, well, she was stabbed in the liver,
she was stabbed in the spine, she was stabbed in
the skull, she was stabbed in her chest, she was
stabbed in her neck. I mean that's a lot, especially
in an unusual section of her body to be self inflicted.

(38:44):
I mean, half of them were behind her.

Speaker 3 (38:46):
This is the thing. And on my website I cover
a lot of crazy things. I mean, people cut their
own eyeballs out. So there's a certain point where you say, okay, people,
you know, people when people, when people are in a
psychotic fit, they do some absolutely insane things to themselves.
But I guess the biggest the biggest question is is

(39:10):
with the autopsy report. So let me just briefly go
over why he I guess initially when he did the autopsy,
he was just under the impression that this was this
was a homicidal stabbing, and then when they started bringing
up questions to him about it being suicide, he thought
that there was really only one of the wounds that

(39:30):
could be questionable, and that was the one to her spine,
and he said that he wanted to double check with
a neuropathologist to make sure that that particular injury wouldn't
having incapacitated her, because then otherwise she wouldn't have been
able to do anything else at that point. So he

(39:52):
and this is another break in protocol, which was a
terrible idea. So when we're working in pathology, whenever you
have a question, and it's totally normal to just call
any doctor in and be like, hey, could you just
look at this for a second, I'm not sure what
this is whatever. And what he did was he called
the neuropathologist that was a consultant for the Medical Examiner's

(40:15):
Office at the time, doctor Wark, which she's we could
just go on about how cool that lady is. She's
so old school, she's ninety six now, dude, she's just
like so cool. I worked with her a little bit,
and she's just so smart and awesome. But and she
was the person that everybody wanted to talk to when
there was something wrong with somebody's brain, Like she knew everything.

(40:35):
So he walked. So I know that this sounds really harsh,
but he had a piece of the spinal cord in
a jar and just walked over to Children's Hospital where
she was, which is only just up the parking lot,
and brought it to her and just was like, hey,
could you look at this for a second, and she said,
I don't think that that would have incapacitated her. Now,

(40:57):
the problem is is that she doesn't really remember that
transaction happening, but that was off the record anyway. She
doesn't have any receipts for a consult or anything like that.
So she's like, I don't freaking know. I'm not signing
my name to this right now. Why would you? I
wouldn't you know? And then he was like, okay, well
doctor work said that, so I'm just gonna call it

(41:18):
a suicide now and just like just not thinking of
like the repercussions of what would happen in that case.
So then years go by and thank God for her
parents for real, they're like the ultimate people that you
look at and say, this is why you fight, because
you're winning. You're getting somewhere with this. But her parents

(41:39):
have been pressing it for since twenty eleven. These poor
people this is the Retirement Project, is trying to get
justice for their daughter. It's just totally horrible, but they
were able to get another neuropathologist to pull up the
case and look at it. And when this neuropathologist looked
at it, she saw some thing that wasn't mentioned in

(42:01):
the other one, which was that there was two different cuts,
one to the bone and ligaments and then one to
the dora mater. So the Dora matter is that's also
the name of my business.

Speaker 1 (42:12):
I was just gonna say that.

Speaker 3 (42:14):
Yeah, it means it means tough mother in Latin. Actually
it's very cool. But it's the it's the thick outer
laying that covers the spinal cord and also the brain.

Speaker 1 (42:22):
Okay, well, see I knew that, And I thought, is
she's saying her business is a tough outer layer, like
she's tough skinned.

Speaker 3 (42:29):
Yeah, tough mother.

Speaker 1 (42:30):
Yeah, yeah, she's a tough mo Yeah I dig it.

Speaker 3 (42:34):
So so she was saying that there was this is
the The new neuropathologist said that there was evidence of
sharp force injury that was definitely caused by a sharp
weapon and not a scalpa blade, not an autopsy tool.
And she said that the interesting thing that she noted
about that was that there was no hemorrhage. So when
you don't see hemorrhage on a wound. That means that

(42:55):
the heart wasn't beating and then the person was dead.
There could also be other reasons why, which she stated,
which was there was not enough time in between getting
that stab wound and her body to be able to
send blood to it before she actually died, or that
it didn't disrupt the tissue enough to cause it to bleed,
which I don't believe that part of it. Or the

(43:16):
other explanation was Ellen was dead when it happened, so
so there, but she didn't really She kind of back again,
didn't want to sign her name to that because who would.

Speaker 1 (43:28):
Now let me just ask a question for clarification, you're
saying that possibly, like, let's just say she stabbed herself
so fast that one was done and then the fatal
one was done, and it could look like this one
she was not living, but the first one she could
have been. It was just so fast blood didn't have
time to get there. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (43:47):
So when you when you make an incision like that
along the blood supply, think about your heart beating and stuff.
It's going to send blood through the circulatory system. But
when there's a disruption in the circle system, the blood
will start pulling in that. Just think about a sprinkler
system on your front lawn or something. When there's a hole,
it makes a puddle. So it's the same kind of theory.

(44:10):
And there's that's it's it's a stretch. It's in theory, yes,
but that's a stretch. And the reason is is when
when the fiance found her, she had the knife in
her chest, which was the last stab wound. So how
did she how was she able to pull the knife

(44:30):
around her chest and stab herself if she was incapacitated
or if she was already dead Like it's it's it's.

Speaker 2 (44:38):
Just not.

Speaker 3 (44:40):
Scientifically, it goes more towards it's not possible. But I
guess this other neuropathologist was giving other possibilities because think
about the pressure for this other neuropathologist. If she says
that there was no hemorrhage and she was dead, now
you automatically have a homicide investigation, and that's a lot
to put on one that wasn't involved in the autopsy

(45:02):
at all. Right, Well, she's just like an innocent you know.

Speaker 1 (45:07):
Oh yeah, So the last placement, did it puncture the
heart along anything that would have caused her to bleed
out and die. Was that a fatal stab?

Speaker 3 (45:20):
I believe that that was the fatal stab wound because
she she had a lot of those, particular those twenty
stab wounds that she had, plus they were superficial, a
lot of them, you know, they would just skim the surface.
And and of course the question is which you would
see in a typical person that gets stabbed to death.

(45:41):
It's a very it's a very violent death, and typically
you would see defensive wounds on their hands because they're
trying to get the person to stop. Another thing is
is that she didn't have any kind of significant amount
of medications or drugs in her at the time, which
would have made her just lay there and not fight back.
So that was some of the questions there as far

(46:03):
as well, why doesn't she have those? And it's it's
a very good question. It's not blow it off. It's
a good question.

Speaker 1 (46:11):
And you know, Maria, there's a y'all probably know the name,
but Richard Seltzer. He said, once, autopsies give us facts,
but not the truth. And this kind of goes back
to what you're saying. Your mom can break this down
and tell us this would have happened with her spine,
This would have happened with her liver, This was probably

(46:32):
the fatal stab wound, because but it still doesn't give
us the truth, the truth of what actually happened, who
actually did it? No?

Speaker 2 (46:42):
And I think, you know, this is a really difficult
case because there is CCTV of the fiance in the
hallway at specific times there was a snowstorm, and on
their balcony there was no disturbed snow, so that kind
of disproves a break in. So you really only play
the fiance in the apartment with her as being the

(47:03):
only reasonable suspect. But I think it's really hard to
say because she did have the history of going through
something mentally, But then you know what reason would he
have had to kill her? And was their relationship bad?
It's just all over the place. And I think it's
the same with Karen Reid. I think a lot of

(47:23):
people with Karen Reid are like, oh, she was crazy,
she called him fifty times and left them those horrible voicemails,
But that doesn't make her a killer.

Speaker 3 (47:32):
And I don't.

Speaker 2 (47:33):
I have a hard time in this case because yeah,
we can look at the scientific facts, but it still
doesn't really make any sense what's going on.

Speaker 1 (47:42):
I think in our business, we have all heard stories
and been involved with cases where a woman who feels
like she's doing all she can to support this man
and his children doesn't feel appreciated. He's not going to
marry her, he's not given her the life that she
feels like she deserves in some way. And sometimes they

(48:05):
can they can send really horrible text messages, but it
doesn't really mean they mean it. They're just trying to
get a reaction maybe from him, some attention, maybe an apology,
you know. And it seemed like their relationship, you know,

(48:26):
had that as part of their pattern, that they would
argue they would send these horrible messages to each other.
And you have to factor that in too. Like Nancy
Grace always says, if you want to know about a racehorse,
look at his track record. Well they did that kind
of you know, back and forth. It was not uncommon.

Speaker 2 (48:48):
Yeah, And I have a theory that when you're not
with the right significant other, it could bring out the
absolute worst personality treats in yourself. But I really I
think that's you know, people want to look at that
and say it's the obvious answer for both of these
cases that maybe they were going through problems, and that
seems like the most possible situation as to what went down.

(49:12):
But at the end of the day, it doesn't necessarily
make somebody snap. It just looks bad circumstantially.

Speaker 3 (49:19):
If these police investigations and forensic investigations were done properly,
we wouldn't even be sitting here right now and talking
about this. If you think about Ellen Greenberg, like if
they just secured the property and treated it like a
crime scene and went through it slowly and didn't jump
the gun with the homicide and then the suicide, and

(49:40):
they brought all the evidence forth, I think that there
wouldn't be as many questions. The parents might still have
a hard time understanding it, but with the history of
the medications and the anxiety depression and the searches on
the internet, it might have made it easier. Also, I
think that with the Karen Rea case is the same thing.

(50:04):
If they would have treated that like a crime scene
and got people out of the house. I heard that
that house has since been sold. I heard that the
dog they got rid of the dog. I don't know
what you know. I mean, like, this is why people
are questioning. If they just did everything by the book,
then nobody would even be questioning.

Speaker 1 (50:23):
And that's something I preach at every academy class I
ever teach. If you are fixing to have to go
do a death notification, you better have all of your
facts before you open your mouth. You cannot go to
a family and use the word suicide. You have to

(50:43):
know for sure, provable, not speculation. You can't start talking
if you're not sure yet unless that's what you say.
You have to tell the truth. And to me, both
of these came, says her, mind boggling for all the
reasons you just said. And the number one is because

(51:05):
they did not treat both cases like a homicide. If
somebody has got a knife sticking out of them, if
somebody has got multiple injuries and laying in the snow,
you treat both like a homicide till you know different. Nicole,
we had a case that I was convinced was a homicide.

(51:30):
I even thought it was a homicide sexual assault. She
was found on the side of the highway. I've told
this story before, but for Nicole's purpose, I think it's
important to say it again. She only had on a
T shirt like a travel t shirt from a carabing
nude from the waist down, had what I thought was

(51:52):
road rash across her thighs and buttocks and calves. Nothing
of anything personal on her. But nowss long story short.
After the autopsy, she died a dongee fever and I
had never heard of it. I didn't know what it
would look like. I didn't have any idea since I

(52:13):
was not familiar how a person would react and behave.
After that understanding, we went back and went in about
a fifty yard radius, ended up finding her purse and
other belongings, including her pants and underwear. So it started
to make a lot more sense once we had that information.

(52:34):
But again for folks listening, the medical examiner is a
huge part of our team. They have to give us
information we don't know. I mean, we can tell them
facts if they ask, and we can say, hey, this
is what was found at the scene, this medication, you know,
this knife, this gun, this note, whatever. But for them

(52:56):
to absolutely change what they see, what they believe based
on a theory based on a statement of one person,
would be extremely unusual.

Speaker 3 (53:07):
To me, And with this case with Ela Greeberg, especially,
the family considers themselves to have this big win to yesterday.
I believe it was. It was some one day this
week that doctor Marlon Osborne said that he no longer
believes that she killed herself, and now that he's seen
new information, he is willing to change it. He doesn't

(53:32):
believe that it's suicide anymore. Now that doesn't mean that
he thinks it's homicide. It just means I feel like
he would change it to undetermined. That would be in
his best interest, to be honest with you. But unless
because I don't, there has to be one of these
people that's going to pull the trigger and say this

(53:55):
is the wound that caught that I could prove that
she was murdered. And I don't know who's going to
say sign off on that, to be honest, but she
he's not a doctor in Pennsylvania anymore, and he's not
he does not work for the Philadelphia Medical Examiner's Office,
so he can't change it.

Speaker 1 (54:13):
That's right. He doesn't have the authority anymore. And you know,
we've got the same thing in the Karen Reid trial.
If the prosecution did not have enough for murder the
first time, they don't have it now. And if they're
trying to get her on, you know, a lesser charge
leaving the scene of an accident. Okay, but again for

(54:36):
John O'Keefe's family, that's not good enough.

Speaker 3 (54:40):
I wouldn't be satisfied with that at all. And you know,
I think a lot when you were talking with Maria
about the social media and stuff, a lot of it
has to do with the fact that he's a cop
and cop versus people. You know, I'm usually one hundred
percent pro cop. Honestly I am. I'm married to a fireman.
We're just like in the same kind of family. I

(55:01):
just don't I don't like the way this smells like.
It's just it's something's not sitting right with me about it.

Speaker 1 (55:07):
Nothing about it makes any sense to your point that
first trial, that place should have been filled with fellow officers.
It wasn't. To your point. When you know, this type
of event happens, whether it's a horrible accident off duty
or an in the line of duty death, they all

(55:30):
show up. In this case, the police department that had
the case did not treat it like it was a
fellow officer. Not in any way.

Speaker 2 (55:41):
No, And it's you know, it's it's hard to ignore
things like that when other aspects of the case are
pretty fishy, you know.

Speaker 1 (55:50):
And the thing is, all three of us have children,
and I think that when you start looking at your
child and you say, well, this thinks it's a victory
to get suicide removed, that's a victory. Oh my god.
That means somebody killed her. I mean, there's no other option.

(56:14):
It's not natural, it's not accident. I mean, this is
what we're left with. And to me, that's the most
gut wrenching victory I've ever heard of.

Speaker 2 (56:28):
Well, and that's the city settling too, because a judge
had just recently said that the medical examiner and the
lead detective we're going to be taking the stand if
this went to trial, and then all of a sudden
they were willing to settle and agree to reopen the case.
So I think they've been going through heartache for fourteen
years and it is really sad for this family that

(56:50):
they just don't have any closure. And I think that
John O'Keefe's family is going to be in a similar
situation whether Karen Reid is convicted or not too, because.

Speaker 1 (56:59):
It's it's not going to be murder, which is what
they believe happened, so they're not going to get justice
and both families to me, are just in a horrific
no win situation. But listen now, I ain't going to
end on this sad note. So, Nicole, what is the
craziest thing you ever pulled out of somebody's body, living

(57:22):
or dead.

Speaker 3 (57:23):
Well, what's interesting about my job, which I really didn't
describe to your listeners, is that so as a PA,
we typically work in the hospital, and we also do
forensics too, and we do autopsies in the hospital, but
we also do surgical pathology, So that's all of the
injuries that happen to people when they're still alive and

(57:46):
they go into the hospital. And I always tell the
stories of the foreign bodies that I get are always
the most interesting in the surgical pathology lab, mostly things
that are removed from men's rectums and the most the
most interesting one I had was a half eat and
pair out of a guy's But but we definitely get

(58:09):
other crazy things too.

Speaker 1 (58:12):
Maria, your mama is fun. She is fun at a
dinner party, isn't she.

Speaker 2 (58:17):
Oh, you have no idea. It's kind of why we
started the podcast because people people were pretty, you know,
intrigued by what our family dinner table conversation was. And
I'm like, you really have no idea, and now the
podcast is a little bit of insight into what that
looks like.

Speaker 3 (58:34):
Still scaled back.

Speaker 1 (58:36):
I had to call your mama and I had to
tell her, listen, I have a it's almost like a
lazy Susan. This beautiful bookcase in my office and it
turns and so the interns. You can pick any book there.
There's Paul Hole's book, and you know, Matt Murphy's book,
and a lot of Ann Ruhl's stuff. Enjoy yourself, please.

(58:58):
I turned to finish is putting together a Monck crime scene,
like a little mini thing for her that I do.
Before I could turn back around, she already had for
whatever reason, she picked the small, beautiful pink book with
the beautiful girl on the front. She screamed and dropped it,

(59:19):
and I was like, well, sugar, that's your first lesson
Welcome to crime scene. And that book is so good.
And the most important thing is you got a lot
of the pictures from a lot of your listeners.

Speaker 3 (59:34):
Oh yeah, from our listeners and followers on Instagram. Every
single one of the pictures in the book. Is user
submitted over one hundred cases of me just you know,
putting a story on Instagram and saying, hey, do you
have hemorrhoids? Are you willing to share a photo? Please
send it to me? And then I would get twenty
photos of people's butts.

Speaker 2 (59:53):
Yeah, I guess who had to sort through all those
pictures with me?

Speaker 1 (59:58):
Maria. I tell you I love her. I mean I do.
I love her, but I'm like, you know, every now
and then we just have to talk about puppies and
something else. I mean Farris Will's fireworks something. But she's
so good. Both of you are so good. And when
I said the gift of the second generation, I'm not
kidding Maria to have you there, somebody that she knows

(01:00:21):
she can trust, Somebody that understands her vision, somebody that
is so helpful, whether it's the photography or the internet
stuff or helping write, you know, for the whole multiple
podcasts and instagrams. It's a gift. You are a flat
just blessing to her. That's all there is to it.

(01:00:43):
And Nicole, you know, I say it a lot and
I'm going to say it again, but I love to
kill a Mockingbird, And in that book there's a line
and it says, some of us are chosen for the
unpleasant jobs. Not everybody can do what you do, but
what you do is so important at that hospital to

(01:01:04):
give those answers and for both of y'all, and I
mean this sincerely, to have such a positive and happy outlook.
I admire it. And if y'all got any secrets to that,
please share. But I do think it's important because if
you're gonna have to get this type of information, I

(01:01:26):
would much rather people have it from you. You know,
where you understand it. You're able to explain it in
ways that most people can't, and it doesn't bother you.
I mean, you're one of those people dead as part
of it. Let's talk about it.

Speaker 3 (01:01:43):
Yeah. I mean me and Maria's have a very very
interesting life. And I don't know how much you know
too much about us, but I had Maria when I
was fifteen years old. Yep, I knew that We've grown
up in a very unusual mother daughter relationship. More like,
I mean, she's she My brother was five years old

(01:02:06):
when she was born, you know, so it just we
all grew up as siblings kind of but also she's
my daughter. It was just a very close relationship and
that's that's why we. I obviously we connect so much
because we talk. This is we're literally just recording our
conversations on the podcast because we every single day. It's

(01:02:28):
like we're news junkies, right, so every day did you
see what happened? Oh my god, the plane crash, did
this that, It's it's just all the time. So we thought, okay, well,
like let's just let everybody listen to us talk.

Speaker 1 (01:02:40):
Well, you know, it's the first part of February, so
we're not even really in to twenty twenty five yet.
And I think your story is powerful also to remind
people listen, even if you do things out of order
to other people, you can still do them. Oh yes,

(01:03:00):
you had her at fifteen, you dropped out of high school,
but maybe you weren't done. You figured out a way
to get your college degree, to get that master's degree,
to get your board certifications, and look, that's unbelievable. So
instead of saying, well, you know, i'm a mom, Now
that's what I'm gonna do. That's it. You got some

(01:03:21):
help from your grandparents and you you know, you just
said Hey, I'm gonna do the best I can, not
just for me, but for her too. And I think
that is one of the best things to come out
of this podcast tonight. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:03:34):
And I am a really big person that always says that,
even though that this is my career and I love
it and I'm so passionate about it, my number one
thing is actually my family and being a mom, and
that always takes priority over all of it, you know.
But I feel like there's a lot My husband and

(01:03:55):
I always talk about this. There's twenty four hours in
a day. There's just a lot of time people waste,
and I try to utilize it a lot.

Speaker 1 (01:04:04):
Well, I think you just said the ticket. I think
when your priorities are straight and you're doing what you
love and you're surrounded by the people you love, what
else could there be? Honey?

Speaker 3 (01:04:15):
Yeah, And Maria was just just She's just a blessing
of a child.

Speaker 2 (01:04:20):
Just very you both have me blushing, you know, I
believe that you can say, really, she just just the
easiest kid that she was.

Speaker 3 (01:04:28):
You know, it was a terrible situation to get pregnant
when I was in ninth grade, So she was the
best case scenario of that just always very easy going.
And everybody loves Maria. Everybody that meets her she is,
She's just flowing all the time.

Speaker 1 (01:04:46):
Well, I called her a gift, and I mean it,
There's no doubt about it.

Speaker 2 (01:04:50):
Isn't this a confidence boost?

Speaker 1 (01:04:54):
Well? I appreciate y'all being with me tonight. I appreciate
y'all being own Zone seven, but I appreciate y'all being
a part of mine. I know I can call either
one of you if I have questions or concerns or
just curious about a case, and I appreciate that absolutely.

Speaker 3 (01:05:11):
Thank you so much, Mac for having us on.

Speaker 1 (01:05:14):
Oh this ain't gonna be the last time, y'all. Y'all.
I'm going to end Zone seven the way that I
always do with a quote. When I see a large
group of people, I wonder how many of them are
going to require an autopsy? George Carlin, Yes, I love

(01:05:34):
George Carltt I do too. I'm Cheryl McCollum and this
is Zone seven.

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Karen Reed & Ellen Greenberg | Case Analysis, Forensic Missteps & A Day In The Life Of A Pathologist with Nicole Angemi & Maria Q. Kane

Episode Transcript

Host

Sheryl McCollum

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Karen Reed & Ellen Greenberg | Case Analysis, Forensic Missteps & A Day In The Life Of A Pathologist with Nicole Angemi & Maria Q. Kane