The Delphi Murders: Through the Eyes and Words of Susan Hendricks

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
There is an award winning book I want to tell
you all about Down the Hill, my descent into the
Double Murder in Delphi Susan Hendrix, and the forward is
by Kelsey Jerman, the sister of one of the victims.
I'm sure y'all know, and normally I will start this

(00:29):
podcast with an antidote, but I'm not going to do
that today. I'm going to start with something that I
wrote for this book. I've watched my friend report advocate
and support Abby and Libby's families with respect and dignity.
The Double Murder in Delphi stopped being a story for
Susan Hendrix from the first visit with Libby's family in

(00:53):
their home in the South. We know something incredible happens
once you sit with someone their kitchen table. From that
tiny table to this book, Susan brings the family center
stage in this victim centered, family oriented, loving story of Ohannah.

(01:13):
Susan is no longer a reporter. She is family. Cheryl
Matt McCollum, crime scene investigator and host of Zone seven. Y'all,
we are so fortunate tonight to have Susan Hendrix with
us to talk not just about her book, but about
anything she wants to. She is anchored CNN and HLN.

(01:36):
You know her from the Weekend Express. You know we're
from crime con. But I'm going to tell you something
from a class at Arizona State. When she heard Walter Cronkite,
she changed her life. She knew in that moment listening
to that legend that she wanted to cover the news.
But what she has done so beautifully in that career

(01:59):
is she has never lost who she is, which is
naturally a loving and caring person. She's a daughter, she's
a sister, she's a wife, she's a mother, she's a
good friend and fortunately for me, part of mi z
Own seven.

Speaker 2 (02:16):
Cheryl, it's an honor to be on Zone seven. But
it's also an honor. And I'm so grateful that you
wrote that. I was tearing up as you read it
again because when you first sent it over, I read
that out loud to my sister and my voice was cracking.
It just means so much because you're right in that kitchen,
in Libby's kitchen is where it changed for me, and

(02:38):
the way you were able to capture that, and how
poignant it was, because I know how close you are
to this story and to Kelsey as well. So it
meant so much and it still does.

Speaker 1 (02:47):
Well. You know, I don't think you can hang out
with her for five minutes without just going I adore
this kid, and then you know, to know what she
went through. And you have a sister, and I have
four sisters, and we we did that sort of thing.
We all had that place that was special to us,
that was maybe through the woods and near a creek
bed or a river. And I know you and your

(03:09):
sister had a place that y'all went with a good
friend of y'all's in the neighborhood. And you should have
been able to do that. You should be able to
go through the woods and find your little special place
and you know, gossip and tell secrets and have some
fun and talk about boys or whatever you're doing without
thinking somebody's going to come up to two little kids.

(03:32):
I mean, you're talking about thirteen and fourteen. They're little
kids and murder them.

Speaker 2 (03:36):
Yeah, the best days really when you think back on
your teenage years, and you're right. My sister and I
had a place. We called it the brook. Let's go
down the Brook. It was where we went daily and
there was two pipes down there, sewer pipes. One was high,
one was low. I mean, it was our routine. I
envision it right now in my mind about how much fun,
how freeing it was, and the innocence of that town

(03:59):
of Delli just ripped apart on that day on February thirteenth,
when their bodies were discovered the next day, but just
it showed how close the town was coming together. I
remember Becky Libby's grandmother telling me, you know, Susan, even
though this search was officially called off, as you know,
and Sheriff tob Lesnibie said, look, it was just too dangerous,

(04:21):
too dark down there, officially called off, but that didn't
stop the town of Delphi. And Becky said, there was
kind of a dim glow form all the flashlights looking
for Abby and Libby. That to me signifies what type
of town that is, and how no matter what, even
with the devastation the next day of finding the girl's
bodies and through I don't know, close to six years

(04:44):
before someone was in custody, that town, to me stuck
together and really showed their strength.

Speaker 1 (04:49):
Agreed, And this whole thing was so unimaginable because I
went to Burdue for a semester. It was an internship
with the FBI, and so I felt like I kind
of knew Indianapolis, and I kind of knew the general area,
but I had never heard of Delphi, never heard of
it the first time I went. I had told Kelsey

(05:10):
and some of the other folks, don't tell me anything.
Let me see if I can find the bridge. Now,
in complete transparency, I am not Sakaguilla. Okay, if my
husband says to me, hey, go to the west side
of the house, I don't know where that is.

Speaker 2 (05:28):
Wait, finally I'm meeting someone that is the exact same
way I am. An example, in high school, a friend
Tom of my sisters and I in high school, he
would be driving, let's say, and this was an ongoing joke. Okay,
ask Susie what they call me left or right? I'd
say right, Okay, we're going left because my sense of
direction was zero zero.

Speaker 1 (05:47):
Yeah, me too. And so I even tell people in
my profession, don't tell me you're northeast of Walmart. Tell
me exactly where you are, because otherwise I'm gonna drive
around for second looking for you. So I say that
only because it's not about direction. But normally you can
get into any town I can, and you can find

(06:10):
the landmarks. There's gonna be signage. You're gonna see, Oh,
there's the courthouse, there's a fire station, there's a police department,
there's a hospital. Got it. But if they've got something
that they're proud of, they don't hide it. Right when
I got there, I saw nothing. I didn't see anything
that was pointing me in this direction. There wasn't like this,

(06:32):
you know, great sign with an era going hey, you
got to go here to hike to this fabulous bridge.
So they finally led me to where you would go
to park and you know the bridge that is like
the free pedestrian Yeah, like the pedestrian bridge, But it
says on there the high bridge. So I'm thinking that,
ain't it because that's over a road. But again you

(06:53):
wouldn't know. Well, we finally park and we walk, and
we walk and we walk. I was amazed. It did
not look like I thought it was going to look, Susan.
I didn't know there were houses to the left that
you could see from the path. I didn't know the
walkway was that far. And then when you get to

(07:14):
this bridge, it almost looks like it's floating, and it's
so high, and of course my sister Charlene is with me,
and of course she wants to get on the bridge.
And to me, it looks pretty rickety. I mean there's
boards missing, there's boards that have places that you can
see that are rotted, and I'm like, I don't think

(07:34):
that looks like something I want to participate in. Particularly,
which again, to me, the man on the bridge, bridge
guy as they call him, he looked so comfortable, he
had his hands in his pockets. He's way over to
one side to me, and I said this on Nancy
Grace's show and every show I was on, it looks

(07:54):
to me like he was turning back into the middle
of that bridge, which to me, that man he turned around,
so he passed them and was coming back in my opinion,
But what was your opinion? When you first got to
the bridge.

Speaker 2 (08:10):
It changed everything for me, And you're absolutely right. I
was with two CNN photojournalists and Kelsey came with us,
and I remember speaking of the kitchen, Libby's kitchen. Mike
was there concerned because that is the place where Kelsey
dropped off Abby and Libby, and to think about how
difficult it was for her. This was in twenty nineteen,
in February, and he said Torry took her aside and

(08:32):
I heard him say are you okay to go down
there with them? And she said yeah, I'll be okay.
And we had done the interviews and everyone gathers all
of our stuff and we parked nearby, and the photographer
said to me, Lionel is one of them. He said, well,
we have a new policy at CNN. We're not allowed
to get arrested down here for trespassing because there was

(08:52):
a big sign. They didn't want any look he lose
down there. So I said, well, I'm going to head
off myself. I'm going to start walking towards the bridge
because we were on the path at this particular time.
And I heard my mom's voice in my ear saying
don't go anywhere alone. And she's always been the worrier.
And I heard her voice though, because it started to

(09:13):
feel ominous because I knew what happened down there in
twenty nineteen. But nothing prepares you when you come up
on it. And Cheryl's you're absolutely right, Cheryl, that it
feels like it's floating. Not only is my sense of
direction bad, but I'm scared of heights as well, and
just seeing it, I pictured it just like you did,
to be completely different because Richard Allen. Now what we

(09:36):
think is Richard Allen on the bridge according to him
being in custody, is it seemed like a stroll, like
an everyday stroll. It wasn't going to be that high
or that decrepit. So but then you think back to
that age thirteen and fourteen, you really don't have any fear.
And I know that Libby had been down there several
times and it was easy to her to me that said,

(09:59):
And of course, Cheryl, you know it's said to the investigators,
it's said to the FBI, this guy's from here. And
it doesn't take much. All you have to do is
kind of figure out where is this because it's not
right there. It takes a while to get to and
once you see it, the massiveness of this, you realize, Okay,
he knew this area, he knew how to get here,

(10:19):
and he knew how to walk that bridge.

Speaker 1 (10:21):
And not only was he from there, he was right
from there. He wasn't thirty miles away, he wasn't one
hundred miles away. He wasn't two miles away, because again,
most perpetrators do not make the crime more difficult. Well,
this person broad daylight, other people were around. He's going

(10:42):
to go on a bridge that is rickety and extremely high,
no rails and take them where. I mean that to
me tells me that this was pre planned, that he
knew where he was going to be taken them. And
plus he picked two people at a time, not one.

Speaker 2 (11:01):
And it does make you wonder. And I remember Paul
Holds mentioning this to me, saying, once he saw it
exactly what we were saying, he understood so much more
once he was able to see it and walk down
the hill. He said he had questions before going to
the bridge, wondering why go down in that particular area.
Then he realized once he saw everything, and saying, okay,

(11:24):
that bridge was the weapon. This man decided he was
going to trap someone or I don't know what this
person had in mind. Was it going to be one,
was it going to be two? Did he see the
three and decide that was too many and then see
Abby and Libby? Was it a crime of opportunity? I
believe yes, But I believe like you said, it was

(11:46):
planned in his head, not necessarily Abby and Libby, but
the plan to do something like that, and that was
the perfect place in his mind.

Speaker 1 (11:54):
And I think he knew exactly where he was going
to take him and everything. And you know, again, as
a criminologist, you always think what was their switch? When
did that flip? And we had video and we had audio.
Did that not blow your mind when you first saw

(12:15):
him and then heard his voice?

Speaker 2 (12:18):
Oh, there's nothing like this. I think that's why it
gained so much traction, if you will, because there's no
rhyme or reason at times on what particular stories stand out,
what someone is drawn to and why. But with this
knowing at first a CNN we called it the snapchat
murder because that's what they were calling it because of

(12:39):
the snapchat picture of Abby that Libby I don't know
the terminology snapped it and put out there in the bridge,
So that's what it was called early on at CNN.
But being down there was just so different to see
and I was wondering, Okay, now that someone is in custody,
I thought, looking back at that time, forty four years

(13:03):
old at the time. Now, I believe Richard Allen's fifty
one innocent til proven guilty. But could someone go their
whole lives Cheryl and not do anything if he doesn't
no criminal background that we know of, Could someone just
make that decision? And I remember being asked myself, is
this random? I think not necessarily random? Because he knew

(13:25):
that area, he knew that place, and he knew where
he was going to take his victims.

Speaker 1 (13:30):
I agree. And he didn't take them ten feet. I
mean he walked them a minute. And if you listen
to the boys, it's calm down the hill. I mean,
he's already made the decision. It's done. At that point,
there's no turning back. And you know, I tell this often.
When I was little, I thought monsters were just enraged

(13:55):
and loud and were out of control. And it shocked
me as I got older and started to study that. No,
they're often very calm and quiet, and I thought, how
can monsters be quiet?

Speaker 2 (14:11):
But they are, and they don't look the way you
expect someone capable of doing this to look. Absolutely don't
in our heads that yep, they're going to look a
particular way. Baby. It's like Charles Manson type once he
was in prison.

Speaker 1 (14:26):
They don't.

Speaker 2 (14:27):
They can be your neighbor, as we saw with BTK.
They could be someone who's in the community. They can
be someone who has a family who would never imagine
that this would happen. And back to Libby hitting that
record button, her grandfather might said to me, you know, Susan,
I think that she if she came home that day,
she was going to say, Grandpa, look at this creepy
guy in the bridge. And think about the wherewithal that

(14:48):
Libby had knowing something was off. We all have that
gut feeling and that's what's so horrifying and heartbreaking to
think about what those girls went through, the fear they
knew something was off, being able to hit record. And
at that April press conference, Cheryl when the change of
direction the new sketch, when I heard guys that sounded,

(15:09):
I say that it sounded like someone to me who
had kids might be. I thought at the time, maybe
it's a teacher, guys friendly. It wasn't an angry voice
that you would expect to hear.

Speaker 1 (15:26):
Things that stuck out for me, of course, was the calm,
the tone, the accent. But then the real hero in
this thing is Libby. She gave law enforcement a video
and audio and the exact time and the exact place,
and that to me is such a money tree. And

(15:48):
then to your point, we go almost seven years and
nobody in that town recognized him. Nobody recognized that voice.
That's what blew my mind, because even when I talked
to the superintendent through the years, I always told him
he's right there, unless he's just living in a basement

(16:08):
and he doesn't come out much and he's kind of
a recluse and people don't know it. Then when we
find out he's at CVS.

Speaker 2 (16:15):
I believe that Superintendent Dug Harter looking back on kind
of through the years and the amount of interviews he's given,
and just so supportive of those working on this case,
telling me look susan people put off retirement. He never
took credit for anything. He said, This isn't me. I'm
proud to be here. These investigators working night and day,

(16:39):
and the FBI coming there, they all wanted to solve this.
And from the outside, if you've never been to Delphine,
if you don't see the bridge and it's not clear,
you think, why can't they get the guy right? Well,
it was from far away the video that Libby did
take so his face, as you may have seen, is
blurry and pixelated almost. And you look at the name

(17:00):
TV jacket what appears to be navy, and a lot
of people in Delphi have the jacket. It looks like
a lot of men in Delphi. It truly does.

Speaker 1 (17:08):
Okay, I was going to ask you that next, because
we go to the bridge. After we're done, we go
to a local diner. Everybody looked like him.

Speaker 2 (17:18):
Yes, on main Street was it? Do you remember?

Speaker 1 (17:20):
Right on Main Street? And everybody had like those boots
and jeans and that almost blue jean Carhart jacket and
some type of hat or covering. And I'm like, my lord,
that could be him, that could be him, That could
be him. So that changed everything for me too, because
it's like, all right, maybe it's not that easy, the farming,

(17:43):
the weather, this is how a lot of people dress,
it's how a lot of people look, So maybe it's
more difficult. So again I think going and seeing it, Yeah,
the bridge is higher, and it's much longer. Wasn't it
longer than you ever imagined?

Speaker 2 (17:59):
So much longer then I even could picture or grasp.
Even when you see it seems to go on forever.
And I think that obviously he knew that and looked
at it. I believe as the perfect trap to trap whoever.
The victims were on the other side of the bridge,
and you mention everyone looking like each other, even Sheriff
Lesenbie said to me, no stone was unturned. He said

(18:23):
he was questioned twice so because he said everyone in
this town could tend to look like it. Even Mike
joked he was questioned. He said, I want them to
get everyone out of the way. Question everybody as much
as you need to to truly find the right person.
And you know this, Cheryl, more than most. Isn't it
obviously more difficult to solve something like this if there

(18:43):
is no connection, meaning it wasn't the husband or the
wife or the cousin, meaning if they're not connected in
any way.

Speaker 1 (18:50):
Correct, because you have no piece of a puzzle. You
don't have Oh well, they were just with their ex husband,
you know, that could be a clue, or they were
you know, last seen at this party. And we've got
a bunch of witnesses. Maybe in this situation, we had
some witnesses that saw somebody walk in, but again not

(19:11):
somebody that was connected, not somebody that could say Oh,
that was Fred so and so so we didn't have that.
And then the composites, Oh, my lord, you have one composite.
Everybody's looking for this guy. It's put out everywhere. And
then suddenly there's a second and it's a much younger person,
looks very different than the first composite. So here's what

(19:32):
I want to get to. You have covered so many
major things, but this case drew you in like no other,
and you just you had to write a book. You
had to put on paper about this case and about
this family and about these two young girls and law enforcement.

(19:53):
I mean, you have included everything and so many important people.
You've already mentioned Paul Holes, but you had other people
that were talking to you and trying to help you
frame things about this perpetrator and the victims. So tell
us when you said, Okay, I'm writing a book, and
then how did you start? Well?

Speaker 2 (20:14):
I got very good at compartmentalizing working at CNN seventeen
plus years before that, I was a local reporter in California,
and as a journalist, you go out be listened to
the scanners back in the day, and you're there usually
after law enforcement. And what I saw and what you
see and the stories, but you're also thinking about, Okay,

(20:34):
I'm live at five pm, six pm, eleven pm. I
have to gather all of this. I have to edit.
I have to So you're able to compartmentalize while keeping busy,
and you never get too close because of the news
cycle the way it moves, and you keep going and
even with unless it's highly reported on, like let's say
the Casey Anthony trial, of course, and before that before

(20:57):
her arrest with Kaylee missing, so something like that. Of
course were on it twenty four to seven. But with
the stories going through the news cycle, you rarely check
back with them, especially in local news too. I see
people outside of work and those who watched the show
I was on a morning show would say, whatever happened
to that one person whose daughter this happened to her?

(21:20):
And I wouldn't know because the next news cycle happens.

Speaker 1 (21:24):
Well with this.

Speaker 2 (21:24):
It was very different because I was sent there to Delphi,
and I'm so grateful that I was. I remember being
told by a producer, we're sending you to Delphi, and
I said, oh, yeah, the snapchambers with the video on
the bridge, the girl who took the cell phone footage, yes,
but then being welcomed in there and getting to know

(21:45):
these families not just Hi, I'm Susan Hendrix, were rolling,
look at the camera, just talk to me, everything's fine,
and then moving on. It was like you said, back
to the kitchen table, Mike cooking spaghetti with meat sauce,
just acting. I got a glimpse of what the family

(22:05):
was with Libby there because of what they showed me
on Facebook video of Libby. There was a crack in
a watermelon. This video stood out to me, and she
tried to break it open and it did break open
and she kind of fell back laughing, and she had
a Superman T shirt on. So I felt like that
family felt. I felt like I was on the other

(22:27):
side of the camera and viewing their pain differently than
I viewed it from being on the other side of
the camera. And it changed me significantly in a good
way as a journalist, as a mom, as a person.
And you look at them and you think, these families,
oh my gosh, everything they're going through, well they're getting

(22:48):
through this. You actually learn from them. You're actually in
awe over the family members, how they're able to wake
up the next day to keep going, especially in this case,
to keep looking for the man on the bridge. So
it changed me significantly, and once I decided to write
the book, then I thought, oh, no, I really want

(23:10):
the family members to I wanted to write something that
they would be proud of a different perspective from their perspective,
and that's why it meant so much to me. With
Kelsey writing the forward, it was in my eyes, her
blessing and her perspective. She has a story to tell,
and I hope that she tells it someday because from

(23:30):
her perspective is very differently. This is from mine, through
the eyes of the family and what they went through throughout.

Speaker 1 (23:37):
I'm going to read just a little bit from the forward,
if that's okay with you, because I think it's so
important for people to hear from Kelty. Growing up, it
was Libby and me against the world. During our parents' divorce,
we never knew whose house we would be at or when,
and eventually we moved in with our grandparents. Throughout all
of it, Libby was my constant. We went through every

(24:01):
high and every low together. Always thought that it would
be inevitable that she would be with me through everything
life brought our way. That was until February thirteenth, twenty seventeen,
when life as I knew it came crashing down and
turned into the kind of nightmare that until that moment,

(24:23):
people in small town Delphi had only heard about on television.
Anybody that is a sister has a sister. I should
say that bond is different than a brother. They're both fabulous,
they're both fantastic, but they're different. And I think that
sister has that almost mothering instinct with the younger sibling,

(24:47):
and I think that's what gives this level of comfort
and love and protection. And I mean, it's hard for
me to even really put into words because I'm the
younger sis and I have four mamas, you know, and
I always felt like, oh, everything's going to be okay

(25:08):
because they're there. To me, it's almost a gift that
she got to be with her till that last moment.
And I've tried to express that to her, that she's
a bigger sister, she's the older one. No, I'm not
going to take y' all. I've got things to do.
I'm going to go see a friend and I'm going
to go to work. You know how you do. And
then as that older sister, she said, no, you know

(25:29):
what I've told her. No, they just want to go
have some fun. I'll take you, but I can't pick
you up. It was just that innocent, It was just
that loving kind I'm going to go out of my
way to do something for her so she can have
a great day. That's all it was.

Speaker 2 (25:44):
And you never think it's ever ever think it's the
last time you'll see that person. Ever. It was in
the middle of the day, as we have said several times,
dropping them off. Becky Patty has said to me, They
asked me, and I said, yes, because they're off, they're tablets.
It's something fun, it's outdoors. Why would you ever think

(26:04):
that anything bad would happen there? You wouldn't. It was
the innocence of two young girls. And Kelsey after that,
of course, being thrust into this position of being her
sister's advocate and her life changing and being questioned by
the authorities, as she said early on last one, to
see her sister and Abby and just everything she was

(26:24):
thrown into. And I remember this stands out to me
walking down to the bridge with her on that February
day and saying realizing just how mature she seemed, but
innocent in a way at the same time, and just
so sweet and nice and nice and saying she wanted
to study be kind of help others and study forensics

(26:49):
or what have you. And she was, I believe it
for do at the time, I just said, you know,
if you went down a path that wasn't this path,
people would un stand, meaning turning to things that would
numb you, people would understand. And she said I was
what helped her. She said, I'm sure she told you
as well, to connect with people at crime Con who

(27:12):
really knew what she was going through, who felt that
gut wrenching loss, and who could say it's okay, you're
going to be okay. You need to be strong for Libby.
And that's when she said she gained her voice and
was able to move forward. But it stood out to
me in Austin meeting Kelsey several times, but this was
in Austin in twenty twenty one, I believe, And we
were all sitting out at a restaurant and she was

(27:35):
engaged to Caleb and said, you know, I won't have
kids until he's found. I can't almost in a way
kind of reiterating it to herself. And I didn't say
anything I wanted to, but I felt like she had
made that decision. She was just kind of reiterating that statement,
and it made me realize that she everything in their

(27:57):
world stopped. That was the mission, that was their purpose.
They wanted to find the guy in the sketch, and
when the sketch changed to the younger looking guy, they
just regroup. The families did talk about strength and just
kept handing out those flyers. But with Kelsey and she
just had a little baby girl this summer, Ellie, and
it's so great to see. And I feel like once

(28:20):
someone was in custody, you know, it hasn't been smooth
sailing by any means about the legal process and where
we are now. But to think, okay, if he's charged
with this again, innocential, proven guilty, I felt like it
almost allowed Kelsey to exhale, if you will, never forgetting Libby.
That was their biggest fear. Even Becky said, look, when

(28:41):
the insurance cards come, it's the little things and her
name's no longer on there. It's those things that eat
away at me. And that's my biggest fear. And I
believe that she, of course and Abby as well, will
never be forgotten.

Speaker 1 (28:55):
You and I are both mamas, we both have daughters
and sons, but the daughter's civically, Kelsey was seventeen. I mean,
just think back what you were doing at seventeen. I mean,
it's cheerleading practice. What boys smiled at you? And what
are we going to wear to the dance? I mean,
that's it. There should be nothing more important than that.

Speaker 2 (29:16):
Not the national spotlight. I remember her telling me that
she was on Doctor Phil and she was so nervous.
Everything was new to her, the murder. She was still
trying to she said, for a while, it was almost
like a numbing feeling, like it was surreal. Not it
didn't register, of course, being seventeen years old, that you

(29:37):
wouldn't see your sister an Abby ever again and just
where she is now, but forever changed, of course, And
the families didn't ask for this, the media in Delphi,
the whole town of Delphi, being the focus of this
investigation of what happened to those two girls and criticized too,

(29:57):
which is another.

Speaker 1 (29:58):
Side to this. I do want to talk about something positive,
and that's when you know you hosted them at crime
Con more than once. And they've been a part of
crime Con since Indianapolis. And I know Kelsey and I
when she was talking about for doing what she wanted
to major in, and you know, she was going to

(30:19):
study and maybe become a victim avocate or work in
forensics like you're talking about. And I said, well, honey,
look around. I mean you've got Nancy Grace and Vinnie
Polatan and Kim Goldman and Susan Hendrix and Paul Hols,
any of those folks, the ladies from the Golden State
Killer or all her friends too. And I said, think

(30:41):
of the paper you could write and the people you
could quote. I mean, you're sitting on a gold mine
that your professors are going to think. This has got
to be a lie. There's no way this child knows
these people and can get them on the phone. But
that's who Keltsey is. She is unassuming and she's quiet,
if not almost shah. But once you break that and

(31:03):
you become her friend, she's fabulous. And you know she's
funny and smart and just her heart. I mean it
still belongs to our sister, but you know, she has
helped so many other people that people don't even.

Speaker 2 (31:19):
Know about so intelligent and thinking about the pain that
she did go through could be her purpose. It is
her purpose. Her pain is her purpose and the people
that she can help because of the pain that her
and her family have gone through. I remember it was
October thirty first, Richard Allen was in custody. The press

(31:41):
conference twenty twenty two is that morning that night hosting
a panel I did. Paul Hols was on there, Superintendent
Doug Carter. I interviewed Mike and Becky as well, and
Becky just looked and I know, you know this just
so defeated in a way.

Speaker 1 (31:57):
And she had said.

Speaker 2 (31:59):
To me on the phone, and I called her the
night before, I don't know what my purpose is anymore,
and I said, well, I've seen it. I saw your purpose.
It's you're helping others. It makes me tear up, but
it just it was a shift, of course, because I think,
of course every morning she woke up putting on Facebook
today is the day that was their purpose to find
this guy. And I think that gave them the strength

(32:20):
to kind of move forward. But I remember Paul pointing
this out, and I'm sure you've seen it. It's like
that's another stage. Once you see a face or once
it's a different it's a different aspect to this. And
I think Mike said to me, he's an action kind
of a guy. He said, Okay, it's time for us
to regroup. Someone's in custody. Still keep those calls coming in.

(32:41):
That family was still moving forward with helping and doing
what they could do what was in their control.

Speaker 1 (32:47):
Well, you know, I preached to the younger detectives and rookies,
once an arrest is made, the real investigation begins. It
doesn't stop. The investigation does disolutely not stop at arrest,
and nor should it. But again, in your book, you
beautifully add what Superintendent Doug Carter said at the press conference,

(33:10):
and I just want to quote that when he said, first,
I'd like to speak directly to Anna, Mike, Becky, Kelsey,
and your extended families, along with the entire Delphi community
that certainly has grown and now includes our nation and
even many countries around the world. I am proud to

(33:32):
report to you that today was the day. For all
of us that followed Becky on social media. Every single
day she posted today could be the day, and suddenly
today's the day that he was arrested. So I know,
as you're writing this book and that happens, that's just

(33:53):
a whole nother chapter you've got to jump on immediately.

Speaker 2 (33:56):
Yeah, as you were quoting the super Tendon, I really
admire him in a way of what he how he
handled this. It certainly wasn't easy. I mean, he had
you name it, every media outlet saying what's going on?
Why isn't anyone in custody? And I remember asking him,

(34:18):
I have the book open to that chapter. That night,
I said something stood out to me. You said in
the press conference you believe that good outweighs evil. Do
you still believe that? I asked him.

Speaker 1 (34:30):
He said, I do.

Speaker 2 (34:31):
You know, very personally, before my dad died, he made
me promise not to become cynical like him, and I
was proud to report to him in twenty eighteen that
I'm not and will to this day. I'm not. I
really do believe, after all of these years in this
business and seeing such horror and tragedy, and the list

(34:53):
goes on and on, that good always always comes through evil,
and today's an excit apple of that. So his father
in law enforcement as well, saying don't become cynical like me.

Speaker 1 (35:04):
Don't do it.

Speaker 2 (35:05):
And he had a way of saying, look, I'm not
letting this guy win. Whoever did this is not winning.
They're evil. But overall, the good of this town of Delphi,
in the country, overall good does out weigh evil. I
thought that was poignant.

Speaker 1 (35:18):
He's absolutely right, and love wins. So you're talking about
one person, one person to this that we know of
right now, one person. How many people have gone to
Delphi to help, not just from Delphi, but how many
other people have gone there. You've gone there, I've gone there.
I know several people from law enforcement agencies across the

(35:39):
country that went to try to help. Because Delphi had
never had a child murdered that wasn't directly related to family,
and they certainly had never had a double murder. So
there were people across the country that have had that
situation that thought, hey, let me give them just what
i've got if they can use it, great, And I'll

(36:02):
just tell you one quick story. There was a person
that is a accent expert that works for Disney. I
didn't know him, never met him, but I contacted him
and I said, look, I've got a short little audio.
He just says a couple of words. But there's a
few things that stick out to me. But I'm not

(36:24):
an expert. I just know in Georgia there's some things
I wouldn't say. And he said, what is this for?
And I said, well, two little girls have been murdered.
He said, okay, don't tell me anything about it, but
send me the audio, and I did instantly. He wrote
back and said it sounds like rural Indiana. So I
contacted them and said, look, I don't know if this

(36:44):
is going to help you or not, but the expert says,
this person sounds like rural Indiana. I know that people
did that because I've talked to hundreds and they're all like, hey,
I sent him this, or I told him that, or
I thought this about the bridge, or I thought that
about the way he's got his hands. And you know,
when you start really focusing on minute details and this

(37:08):
is what you do, and you do it instinctively, so
much starts to play through your head. And for me
driving around that town, the town is beautiful. It looks
like a movie set, and especially in the fall, oh
my gosh, it is so tremendous and then you meet
the people and they're exactly what you think. They're exactly

(37:29):
what you've heard your whole life about Middle America saw
to the earth. They are unbelievably so that's so true.

Speaker 2 (37:37):
And thinking of the Ibby and Libby Memorial Park that
was built, it started as an idea within both families saying, oh,
how about a softball field in their name? And Mike
said it was something finally to focus on. That wasn't
the investigation, That wasn't the search for the guy in
the bridge. That wasn't it with the media. It was
about the girls and never forgetting in the amount of

(37:59):
volunt tears that they got. Eric Abby's grandfather said to me,
you know, Susan, there was someone there who had a
tractor and he was really into helping. He was all
in and I didn't know if he knew Mike. No
one really knew him. And then he shared his story
and said that his brother was murdered and it was
unsolved and for him it was a way to heal.

(38:21):
And they've done that through with Abby's angels. Anna, Abby's
mom started and just a way of saying, Okay, this
horrific thing happened. What can we control how can we
continue to put good out there? And we've seen it
continuously through the almost six years before someone was in custody.

Speaker 1 (38:39):
I mean, they've had people show up. They Kelsey was
telling me that when they were putting the playground equipment together,
like a fraternity showed up, like, here's all these young
guys saying, hey, we want to help, you know, put
this together for you know, all the future kids that
are going to play on it. And I just thought, again,
there are these people Kelsey's ages, they're still young that

(39:00):
cared enough to come out the professional basketball team gave
and gave and gave. So I think again, if you
look to what the legacy is going to be, it's
going to absolutely be a legacy of love. That's all
there is to it.

Speaker 2 (39:14):
Yeah, And I remember during the reward kept growing and growing,
and there were a couple anonymous donations to this, just hoping, Okay,
we don't feel like we have any control here, maybe
this will help, Maybe this will nudge someone. And back
to the investigation. I think that that's what that law
enforcement was hoping for. That's why and you mentioned a

(39:35):
piece of the puzzle earlier.

Speaker 1 (39:37):
That's what they.

Speaker 2 (39:37):
Always said, we just need that one piece, and I
think they were relying, relying saying okay is from there
because of what we assessed at the bridge, relying on
a family member to say, oh, that's my cousin, I
know that walk, that's my dad, that's my husband, and
that call never came. So I think it was almost
the perfect storm of having people wanting to help, and

(40:00):
at the press conferences a law enforcement saying just make
the call, apping Libby need you, we all need you,
make the call, and people were calling in it just
the tips weren't. I don't know if reliables the term,
but sometimes I remember Sergeant Kim Riley said to me,
you know, sometimes we get a tip that says I
saw a guy on a bus in Greyhound and a

(40:21):
Greyhound bus in Florida. I saw a guy and it
looked like the sketch and that's all the information he got.
So people wanted to help. The intention was there, but
they just never got As far as we know, I
don't know what happened specifically that led to the arrest
of Richard Allen, but throughout those years, that tip that
they needed just never came in.

Speaker 1 (40:46):
Well, I want to say something to you personally, and
that is this. In law enforcement, we're told don't get invested,
don't befriend the family. You've got to stay you know,
stoe week and detached so that you can properly work something.
I've always disagreed with that, primarily because I couldn't help it.

(41:09):
I mean, if I get drawn to somebody and I
like them and befriend them, I mean I can't. That's
not something I can control.

Speaker 2 (41:16):
Because you're kind and empathetic, right, and it's difficult to not.

Speaker 1 (41:21):
It is impossible. And here's what I think is such
a gift. And this is what I want to say
to you. What I know for a fact you have
done for that family, all the families involved, the extended
family and law enforcement. If this was just one of
those it's on the you know, conveyor belt, I'm going

(41:41):
to report on it. Oh there was a fire at
sixteenth Street, then you move on. Oh there was a
dry by shooting at you know, the plaza, and you're
moving and you don't go back. Those people don't have
a support system outside other people that are hurt. Kelsey
can call you today, you can go there for the trial.

(42:03):
And she has a support system that's not somebody that's
going to fall apart. And I think that is a
gift that you had given her. Plus you've put it
in a book that is so beautifully written that this
is something she can show Ellie if she can't talk
about it fully. Ellie has the book. What you've done

(42:24):
there is for their family historically preserved the truth.

Speaker 2 (42:32):
And I know that you have a similar relationship to
the family as well. I mean, you were just the
most kind and empathetic person in law enforcement I've ever met.
But just the way you bring people in and you
draw people in, and that was what was most important
to me, is because in all the other stories we cover,
even let's say Lacy Peterson, we only had that one

(42:52):
image remember of her she was pregnant. And this is before,
of course, social media, where we tend to have more
now to show who these people are are. But that
was important to me because Abby and Libby are so
much more than what they are on that wanted poster
so much more. We saw Abby with the hat, well,
she made it with her mom. It was for a wedding.
They were going to the New Orleans theme and just

(43:16):
hearing Diane and back to how much law enforcement really
connected with the families here. For those who say otherwise
are wrong that Diane said, look I see screensavers on
law enforcement phones. It's Abby and Libby. They think about
it daily, just like we do. And so that was
important to me to I remember looking through Libby's Facebook page,
which is now memorial. You can go on there and

(43:38):
write about memories or what have you read about Libby?
And what stood out to me the most was her
relationship with their aunt Tara, and just how funny Libby was.
She would say, she would get into Tara's page and say,
Libby's my favorite. The contest is over joking in that way,
and you really felt like those girls, you got the

(44:03):
essence of them. I wanted to portray that in the
book thirteen and fourteen years old now my daughter's fourteen.
When I covered this, when this happened, I remember looking
through my pictures and saying, where was I on the
thirteenth What was I doing in twenty seventeen? And there's
a picture of Emory that comes up and we're baking cupcakes.
But it's like they don't get that anymore.

Speaker 1 (44:26):
Thanks absolutely, And you know Caroline, she is Libby's age.
So every time I've ever gone, I mean, she always
goes with me at Crime Con that's when she first
met you. You were walking fast. I think you've had
a session or something. And Caroline's like, do you think
she would take a picture? I said, I think so,

(44:47):
but she looks kind of busy. Honey. You stopped, you
took pictures with her. She was thrilled at her mind,
you know. But Kelsey, I think had just this natural
draw to her because she knew that age. She knew
that you know, kind of way of talking and things
that you know, Caroline was interested in was a lot

(45:08):
like Libby. And you know, every time I've gone to
Crome Con or to Delphi, Caroline's been with me and
they have a special relationship that they will laugh about things.
And the day of the press conference when they announced
the arrest, Caroline and I were there, and afterwards Kelsey
was so adorable. But she was like, y'all want to

(45:30):
go to the dog Pound, which is a bar, and
Caroline said, she said, well, I'm not twenty one. She went,
this is Delphi, come on.

Speaker 2 (45:39):
So love it.

Speaker 1 (45:40):
And then afterwards Kelsey said, I want to go to
the bridge, and Caroline said let's go, and it was
the first time she was able to go to the
bridge and she told us, I know he's not here,
I know he's not watching. So again all these layers
of like freedom and relief. But then it comes with,

(46:03):
like you said, the reality of I've seen his face.
I know he's talked to me at that CVS.

Speaker 2 (46:11):
Oh yeah, when Becky told me that because I called
after I heard about the arrest and she said, Matt,
my nephew's wedding, hold on and calls me from the
hall and I said, oh, I don't want to interrupt.
She said, no, it's all anyone's talking about anyway. And
Tara Tarah recognized him the day of the funeral. She
went into CVS and she was crying, of course, getting

(46:31):
pictures of Libby from near the casket, and he said,
it's on me. And for close to six years they
had been at any stoplight you look over, Could that
be it? Could this be it? Never thinking the person
was right in front of you. What as you said,
hearing that voice and getting that analysis, knowing that from
Delphi talk about hiding in plain sight, that's exactly where

(46:53):
he was allegedly innocent. I'll proven guilty. But the arrest
I mean for all those years, and the suspects and
the names. I don't say suspects, because no one was
officially named a suspect or even really a quote unquote
person of interest that they were willing to talk about
but never in arrest. That to me was telling finally
someone's in custody, and now it's a whole other the process,

(47:16):
the judicial system of where we go from here. And
Paul said, expect delays, and that's what we're seeing.

Speaker 1 (47:22):
Oh yes, no, he let me tell you he knows.
And I love that you're using the word allegedly, but
I also want to throw out he's confessed five times. Yes,
that's good.

Speaker 2 (47:33):
I'm glad you mentioned that that gets lost and those
who choose to believe that it's not him, and there's
theories out there and there's open forums and what have you.
I would just wait for what we hear in the
courtroom once we get there. But absolutely I think the
Odinis theory and all of that came out the memorandum
to me disguised as a request for Frank's hearing, which

(47:56):
was really the ability to interfere with the gag order
or what have you, or put their theories out there.
Just my opinion. But right, we were talking about the
confession on a tablet in prison, and everyone knows that
it's recorded or it tells you or what have you,
that he confessed, and Nick mcclearland mentioned that, and at

(48:17):
the time his attorneys Baldwin and Rosie mentioned that too,
that yes he did, and then turn around and say
it's because of how poorly he's being treated, like a
preser of war. So all of a sudden it went away.
And if he's admitting to that, I'm assuming it will
be used in court. And what is he saying now,

(48:38):
so it'll be interesting that that we will see in court.

Speaker 1 (48:41):
Well, here's what I'm most interested in. He confessed how
because if he said anything to his wife or mother
that was not public knowledge. If he said how they
were laying, or what he did first, or who he
killed first, or how he did it, or you know
what some of the evidence that has come out, you know,

(49:04):
what was it, what were you doing with sticks, what
were you carving?

Speaker 2 (49:08):
What?

Speaker 1 (49:08):
You know? How was somebody dressed? If he says anything
that we don't know because they've never officially released the
cause of death. I can tell you what I think.
I can tell you that I think their throats were cut.
But if he said I cut their throat, that's very
different than saying, okay, I killed them. Anybody can say that,

(49:30):
but the detail because he did it five separate times
to his wife and mama, so you would think those
would be the two people that he'd be like, you know,
I didn't do it. You know I'm not capable. That
ain't what he said.

Speaker 2 (49:43):
That's a good point. So if and I do remember
hearing that his wife ended the call abruptly. I don't
know if it was on a phone or a tablet
or what have you, but I know that they the
prisons have to tell you it's recorded. But you're right
if anything specific in there that only the killer would know.
And law enforcement got a lot of criticism Sherylyn that says,

(50:05):
you know, saying tell us more, we need more information.

Speaker 1 (50:08):
But what if they did.

Speaker 2 (50:09):
What if they said there was an unspent bullet and
it is Richard Allen, what do you've tossed the gun?
I mean, so the investigation, there's a lot of They
asked the public for helps. They wanted their help Hipline,
Abby and Lebniji, they said on several occasions. But it
doesn't mean that we have the right to say what
we deserve to know as the public, because we don't.
It's their investigation. Now it goes to a court of

(50:32):
law where they have to try this case the prosecution.
So the criticism I think was unnecessary during but I
digress right the confession four or five times that they
both mentioned. It'll be interesting to see what happens in
terms of if the now new appointed attorneys stay on.

(50:53):
I want a fair trial, and I remember the families
of course saying this that they want fair trial for
Richard Allen as well. Why would they ever want the
wrong person to be in custody.

Speaker 1 (51:04):
They don't.

Speaker 2 (51:05):
That was their biggest fear during this lengthy investigation was
if he's capable of this, And the superintended obviously said
it over and over and said it to me as well.
If they're capable of this, they're capable of doing it again,
and that was the biggest fear.

Speaker 1 (51:19):
Our friend Barbara McDonald has preached that from the beginning,
you won't everything perfect. You want him to have the
best trial possible, no mistakes, and she's right.

Speaker 2 (51:31):
Everyone deserved that a fair trial, and the evidence has
to be shown. I don't think we know all of
it in the probable cause, Effi, David, I don't know
if it's just that unspent bullet. What did they find
during that search. We're hoping to learn during this trial
is exactly what evidence they have and what finally led
to them. And I love that story about you and

(51:52):
Kelsey at the bridge. It just I feel like that
was a turning point for her. The thing that I found,
I think that I've learned and that I've been able
to assess from reporting on the murders of Aby and
Livy is the community that we spoke of that is
supportive to Kelsey and just the crime community who I've

(52:16):
been able to meet, who I've been able to connect with.
It's under the worst circumstances that you do, as you said,
Sharah love Wins that you find these connections that are
something that it's hard to describe. It's healing and it's supportive,
and it's saying, Okay, this is an evil, horrific act,

(52:36):
but this isn't the end of it. We're here to
support you. Whether we've been through it ourselves or we
know someone who has. And Diane Avi's grandmother said that
to me, you know, Susan, people just look at me.
They come up to me at crime con It's kind
of an unspoken word. They look at me, and I
know they've been through something similar. So what I'm able
to see through meeting various families who have gone through

(52:59):
the worst of the worst is that the strength is undeniable,
and it truly is inspiring to.

Speaker 1 (53:05):
See Kelsey's husband, Caleb. They are such an adorable couple
and they're so supportive of each other, and I think
he has been such a source of strength that, again,
for somebody so young, is just incredible. But the last
time Caroline and I were there, after the announcement of
the arrest and all, Kelsey said, do you know, I

(53:28):
hadn't been back into the CVS. I hadn't been back
to the bridge and all that. So we rode. I
was driving and I just pulled into the CVS and
she was like, I ain't going in there, and she
started laughing. Ironically. There was a poster on the outside.
They were looking for an employee, like, you know, come
in and apply and I said, I will give you

(53:50):
one hundred dollars cash if you go in there apply
for Richard Allens John.

Speaker 2 (53:55):
And now you see Cheryl's you probably already know if
you're listening to this her SE's a few. I loved
that with healthy cracking up.

Speaker 1 (54:02):
She was cracking up. So she got out of the
car and she did this cute pose where she's pointing
at the you know, employment poster, and I said, that's
what I'm telling you. Take this town back. We're going
to go to his house. We're going to go into
the CBS, We're gonna go to the bridge. Let's just
burn this town down, honey, you know. And I mean,
she's so cute, you know. And she's again, I mean,

(54:24):
I'm sixty, she's you know at the time, I guess
nineteen or twenty twenty one. Well I guess she had
to be twenty one. But again, just that fun, you know.
And of course Caroline is like, Mom, we cannot go
to his house. I'm like, dude, he's in jail. I mean,
who's gonna tell us we came? You know what I mean,
Let's let's go to these places she's been unable to

(54:46):
go to there's no fear.

Speaker 2 (54:48):
And to me, that's healing. She has you, Cheryl, you
are a friend who can laugh. I mean she You're
right when this occurred seventeen eighteen nineteen, think of those
four normative years and feeling guilty. She has said to
me at times, meaning when good things happen. Let's say
that of course her marriage, her baby shower, these pivotal

(55:11):
moments that she said, look, Libby should be having these moments,
but then realizing, look, if she didn't have the strength
to go on, she had to for Libby. So she
I believe obviously, through Ellie and through Kayleb and through
her family and through you, her support system, she's able
to do this and bring the memory of Libby which
will never go away. She's always there with them.

Speaker 1 (55:32):
Down the Hill is an award winning book. If you
would do something for me, would you read from page
two fifty one where you talk about in all those moments.

Speaker 2 (55:43):
Through it all, she keeps Libby close to her heart,
always with her in all of those moments, every single
moment that happens, whether it's good or it's bad, no
matter what I'm going through, She's always there and I
always feel her presence right there with me every step
of the way, holding my hand, giving me a hug,
encouraging me to go on when I don't feel like

(56:05):
I can, and She's right. Our loved ones never really
leave us. They continue to show up again and again
over the course of our lives, in beautiful and often
unexpected ways. I often think back to that moment in
Libby's kitchen, right after I had met the family in
person for the first time. We had spotted the cardinal
just outside the window, and Becky shared the picture she

(56:28):
had snapped of two cardinals on that same branch months earlier.
It seemed too meaningful to be just a stroke of serendipity.
In the years since, I've seen more cardinals than ever before,
or maybe I just noticed them more whenever they are around,
Usually they visit alone or in pairs, though if I'm lucky,
sometimes I see three sitting together. My son and daughter

(56:51):
still get excited whenever they see them land on the
tree right outside of our back door. Whether or not
the cardinals we saw that day in Libby's kitchen were
visit from heaven, I take comfort in remembering the sweet
serenity of those small crimson birds. Huddled together to share
a moment of warmth before stretching their wings wide and
soaring off, side by side into the sky above, ready

(57:14):
to greet the day.

Speaker 1 (57:16):
I'm Cheryl McCollum and this is Zones Heaven

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Sheryl McCollum

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}The Delphi Murders: Through the Eyes and Words of Susan Hendricks