December 21, 2021 • 39 mins
Sam gets into the challenges of breaking ground with two NFL head coaches and the women they hired: Cleveland Browns head coach Kevin Stefanski and his chief of staff Callie Brownson. Plus, Washington Football Team head coach Ron Rivera and assistant running backs coach Jen King.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
On this episode of Earning It. I just think that
opportunities need to be there for everybody and in every aspect,
in every field and every opportunity. She has the respect
of the players. She certainly has a respect of everybody
in this building because she knows her job. She knows
what to do the new breed in the NFL. I
talked to head coaches Ron Rivera and Kevin Stefanski and
(00:22):
their groundbreaking female coaches Jennifer King and Callie Brownson, plus
a special overtime segment with Callie, whose personal story is
a must listen. I called you last night in preparation
for this interview and asked you if anything was out
of bounds, would you tell me air it out with
air it out. Here's a stat I love for the season.
(00:45):
The Cleveland Browns led the NFL in hiring participants from
the NFL Women's Forum, six in total. That's the program
that I started to create a pipeline to bring smart
females into the game. As far as progress goes, that's
a remark a couple number. To Brown's head coach Kevin Stefanski,
it just makes sense. It's a priority because I think
(01:06):
number one it's the right thing to do. And number two,
just I've always said this, why eliminate half your population
when you're filling a job and we just want the
most qualified person for that job, and to not be
inclusive in those decisions would be foolish. If you know
coach Stefanski, then you know he's anything but foolish. He's
(01:27):
not even forty yet and is already a head coach
in the NFL. In he was named Coach of the
Year after he led the Browns to their first playoff
appearance since two thousand and two. It also happened to
be his first season as a head coach. And I
believe your first higher was CALLI Browns in chief of staff.
Does this start at the top with d Haslem, you know,
part owner of the of the Cleveland Browns or why
(01:47):
did you make this a priority from day one? I
wanted to make sure that our coaching staff, uh, you know,
was reflective of our of our game, reflective of our communities,
and and we wanted people who thought differently and pushed
each other. And I definitely wanted to make sure that
that we had, you know, a woman or women on
our staff. Uh. And as I started asking around and
(02:07):
gathering some names, like you do for all these jobs.
You're looking for this coach and that coach, and you're
there's no shortage of names, which is a good thing.
Calli's name came up through a couple of different people,
and the more I checked in on her and found
out what she was about, it was a perfect fit.
The Browns hired Callie from the Buffalo Bills, where she
had been an offensive assistant coach for one season. Before that,
(02:30):
she was the first female to coach Division one college football.
She was also a phenomenal tackle football player. As chief
of staff, she basically does it all. She coaches, and
then she's in here in the equipment room if they
need extra help. And and she's I mean, she's really
running practice. And I don't say that sincerely, she's she's
running it. So she's supremely capable. Uh. And I just
(02:53):
felt like early on, once I met her and found
out more about her, she was somebody that we had
to have part of this operation. During the season, when
two coaches were out, she stepped in and became the
first woman in NFL history to lead a positional group.
In one game, she oversaw the tight ends and the
other wide receivers. She has the respect of the players.
(03:14):
She certainly has a respect of of everybody in this
building because she knows what she knows her job, she
knows what to do, she knows the offense, so it
was pretty seamless. We talked about what her presence on
the field means for the next generation, specifically his five
year old daughter, Juliette. I don't feel like I need
to be a father of a daughter to get equity,
Like I don't feel like I needed that, but certainly,
(03:36):
just you know my kids in general, I I just
don't want them to be limited in any way, and
especially with with women in football. Now, these young girls
can look and say, hey, there's Callie. That's what Cali
is doing. And I just think it's important that there's
examples out there, and years from now, when when Juliet
is deciding what she wants to be, there's gonna be
countless examples of of women in our sport, because this
(04:00):
sport is it's I've said this before, and I really
believe this. I love football. I love what it teaches
us um and it's a kid's game and it's not
a boys game. And it's not a girls game. It's
a kid's game, and I just don't want it to
ever be uh limiting one sect of people. For for
whatever reason, his answer reminded me of something Billy Jeane
(04:22):
King said a few weeks back about the importance of
male ally ship. If I hadn't had male allies, I
wouldn't be talking to you and having the opportunities I've
had because men are in power, and they're the ones
that have to change because they're the ones that can
change things fast. Other coaches in the NFL and in
other sports as well, are looking to coach. To Fanski
(04:44):
as an example, coach, when you were hiring you know,
Callie and other women on your coaching staff, you know,
a couple of other head coaches in the league admitted
to us that, you know, they weren't nervous enough to
stop them from hiring women, but there was a little
anxiety about shaking things up, you know, after football has
been one way for hundred years. Were you nervous at
all bringing on female coaches? Yeah, I really wasn't. And listen,
(05:05):
I think it's it's maybe ten years ago, twenty years ago.
Maybe there was some closed minded this in our game.
I don't that doesn't exist in our building. I wouldn't
allow it to exist in this building. Kelly actually called
me right after she was hired. It was a huge decision.
At the time, she was already living her dream as
a coach in Buffalo. And he explained this role that
(05:27):
he was thinking about, this cheap staff role, and I
remember saying to him, you know, coach, that's great, that
sounds like an incredible opportunity, but like, I really don't
want to get pulled away from football and I'm worried
if I take this role, it's gonna pull me away
from coaching and I'm terrified of that. And he just
laughed and said, can I tell you something And I
said yeah, and he was like, you know, this was
(05:49):
my first job. That was my first job in the NFL.
And I was just like, okay, cch you got it.
And he was like, you know, I'd take it really
seriously that it doesn't pull you away from football. In fact,
I think like it's one of the best educations you
can get in that role because you're seeing so much
and you're involved in so much. And he was able
to tell her what he envisioned for her career to
(06:09):
three years out. Why are you passionate about developing not
just women but young coaches and and why do you
put so much time into that part of coaching development? Yeah,
I just want to be so intentional about development. I
think it's so easy to say, hey, let's get all
these you know, young coaches in there, thrown in a
room and they'll figure it out, and in some ways
you will, okay, And there is a lot to be
(06:30):
said for throwing coaches in a room and telling them
to get some work done. But I think we've tried
to be intentional about it. And with each coach uh
And and again young and old, quality control to coordinator.
We we've put together a program in terms of this
is how we're gonna develop our coaches. And we spent
a whole week in March uh and and had the
coordinator's interview for a head coaching job, and we had
(06:53):
the position coaches interview for a coordinator job, and we
had the quality control coaches interview for a position job,
had Callie outviously interviewed for a position job. And I
just feel like I don't want to just say that
we're about development and not be about it. Coach. Do
you think we'll see a female in the head in
the head spot, the head coach position anytime soon? What's
what does the future look like for female coaches in
(07:14):
the NFL. Yeah, I mean it's only a matter of time.
And I believe that sincerely, sincerely, just because we have
such quality people and it's only a matter of time.
As those quality people grow in this profession. Uh, some
of them may may be a position coach next year,
and a coordinator in a couple of years, and then
the next thing, you know, it's a head coach. And
(07:36):
I just think, uh, we we have too good, too
good of people for that not to happen, and I
think it's gonna happen soon coming up. Jen King could
see her future by spying, that's right, spying on Ron
Rivera and his players that will go outside and actually
peek through the gate just to watch practice and kind
of duck security as they would drop around in their
(07:58):
little golf cars. But that was so close and kind
of far away at the same time. How she got
them to open the gate for her next I could
not have built the pipeline for women in the NFL
without Ron Rivera. He's a former player and current head
(08:20):
coach of the Washington football team. He was the first
head coach to get behind this effort. Well, I think
a big part of is, you know, I am a
girl dad. Um. You know, my daughter, Courtney has has
has competed uh collegiately, competed in the international level. She's coached,
and my wife is coached, and my wife has coached
collegiately and professionally. And so I just think that that
(08:42):
opportunities need to be there for everybody and in every aspect,
in every field and every opportunity. I'm not sure you
understand the value that you have to this effort, Coach Rivera,
that when we had that first event at Pro Bowl
five years ago, that you were the only head coach
there and you were talking to the women and in
firing the women to get involved and submit their resumes.
(09:03):
But your passion for diversity, coach, spans beyond women. You
have a very diverse coaching staff. That's always been a
passion of yours. Why is diversity a competitive advantage for you? Well,
you know it's funny, Sam, diversity kind of happened naturally
organically as I was interviewing people to be on my
coaching staff. Um, I just hired who I felt were
(09:24):
some of the better candidates, some of the better people
that I got to know and understand. It just so
happened they were all diverse. So to me, it's not
about gender, it's not about race. Um, it's it's not
about anything. It's just about being the best person for
the job. Here's a true story. At a league meeting
in coach Vera's wife Stephanie raised her hand at a
(09:44):
panel that was hosted by Jane Goodell. She asked why
there were no female coaches in the league and what
NFL leadership was doing to change that. I told her
to give me a few months. Well, I will say this,
and I would be remiss if I didn't admit this.
A lot of my successes in part because she's my partner. Um.
You know, she is a person that has always been
a sounding board for me. Um. She gives me a
(10:06):
different perspective, a perspective that that and excuse me for
putting this way, but only a woman could have. And
I found that that sharing her, sharing her opinion with
me has helped me make some pretty good decisions and
and so that's why it was important to me to
to make sure I hired the most qualified people, and
if those people happened to be women, then they were
going to get hired. One of those people Ron hired
(10:29):
is assistant running back coach Jennifer King. She's been with
him since his time at the Carolina Panthers. We actually
met before that when she emailed looking for coaching opportunities.
At the time, I was I was a head coach
coaching college basketball and I was in Atlanta kind of
wasting time until I was going to the gym to recruit,
and uh, I don't know, something just kind of told
(10:49):
me to reach out to this lady named Sam Rappaport.
I had heard about my really UM wanted to get
into football, UM at a higher level. I've been coaching
at some lower levels and I've see playing football at
that time for a lot of years. But I want
to get into coaching. And I emailed you blindly. I
remember you emailed me right back, and we were soon, uh,
you know, chatting on the phone about you know what
(11:10):
I wanted to do. You were a quarterback too. We
can relate on that on many levels. But talk to
me about your playing experience. Yeah, I was fortunate to
play for thirteen seasons, um, mainly as a quarterback, and
um had a successful career. You know, had some great
teammates on a few championships and um, you know, it's
nothing like being able to step out on the grass
and play football and compete. Uh, you know, with your sisters.
(11:32):
This might sound funny to a lot of people, but
it really is a sisterhood. We just knocked each other
on our asses for fun. In Jen King earned a
spot at the Women's Forum, so she was able to
get in front of head coaches and general managers. Yeah,
it was. It was such a great event just to
meet other women who wanted to be in football. I
think that was the first thing I noticed. It was
a room full of women who wanted to work in football,
(11:53):
which was a great opportunity. And for us to be
in front of those decision makers and coaches and general
managers was big. And um, you know, at the time,
my office was next door to the Panther's facility, and um,
you know, once I saw coach Rivera there, I had
to kind of figure out the way how to shoot
my shot. Jen was coaching basketball at a College in
Charlotte and would take any opportunity to spy on practice.
(12:13):
And I was next door. So usually in the mornings
when I got into the office, UM, sometimes they will
be practicing, or sometimes they would practice later, so I
would go outside and actually peeked through the gate just
to watch practice and kind of duck security as they
would drive around in their little golf cars. But um,
I was so close and kind of far away at
the same time. So obviously the forum allowed me to
(12:34):
build that bridge with Coach Rivera and um, we kind
of went from there. And it's funny because I can
remember because behind their practice facil or their stadium and
shoot me, their their their arena. They had these uh
cold tops, and her and her players they would come
out and they soaked their legs and every now that
I would notice, I'm looking up over the hills. So
when she told me that's where they were, I started thinking, Okay,
now that makes sense. Ron says he was blown away
(12:57):
by her passion for the game. When I asked her,
you know, what is your goal? She said to coach
coach in the NFL, And that really was was kind
of the start of our conversation and I told her,
I said, you know what, when we get into O
T S and minigan, don't you come by. And so
we stayed in touch, and she came by and she
got a chance to watch practice for the first time,
(13:17):
and it just kind of be out there and and
and you know, I would always look over and just
kind of see how she was doing, and you could
tell she was enjoying being there, so so to me,
I could feel the passion. I kind of just kept
getting invited back. He kept everything that they had had
mini camp and then ultimately training camp. To be able
to go to training camp with them was huge. It
just expanded my knowledge and my you know, my growth
(13:38):
as a coach so much. So you know, he always
told me to stay ready, and that's that's one thing
that I tried to do. So every time I was
invited back and I was prepared for that next step.
The next step was an internship with the Panthers. Coach
Rivera ultimately brought her with him when he took the
head job at the Washington football team. Jen is the
first black woman to coach full time in NFL history.
(13:59):
It's so and just to to see someone who who
kind of looks like you doing something, especially on TV.
That's why I think it's so important to see. And
I think that's something that um, you know, all the
women coaching now in the NFL, along with myself, we
take it very seriously as far as people seeing us,
you know, and just that exposure. I can't imagine, you know,
as an eight year old ten year old watching football
(14:20):
with my dad, if I would have saw a female
coach on the sideline, the impact that they would have
had on me then. So I think that's why we
take it so seriously now, just because we know of
the you know, the impact that we can have, and
how have the players reacted to a female coach? You know.
The biggest thing I have found, Marshal anything else, Sam,
is players want to be coached by anybody that can
help them. They really do. And they will listen to
(14:41):
anybody that has a voice that can help them. That's
the biggest thing. And it's been kind of fun watching
Jennifer find her voice and I and and I don't
know if you knew this, Jennifer, but I called Sam
a couple of times about advice. I'm dealing with you
because one of the things when you first got started, Um,
you your voice wasn't caring. And we talked a little
(15:04):
bit and and Sam told me and I asked her,
I said, how can I get her to be a
little bit more voiceterous? And she said, you gotta tell her. So,
I don't know if you remember it. I would settle
up to and I talked a little bit about hey,
get in there, do that. Because one of the things
that that that I know what happens with with with
with with young coaches, new coaches, um, is that they're
a little heads and because they they're kind of trying
to feel their way through things. But as I watched
(15:26):
Jennifer start to find her voice, I would watch and
I would watch these players come to her and ask her, hey,
what did you see? You know, um, what can I
do to make this better? Antonio Gibson is a running
back for the Washington football team. He told us about
his first impression of coach King just back and cool.
She would you know, she she's not much of a
(15:46):
rod and that's that's not her. She's played football, you know,
so she's been through a lot. She um, she speaks
on a lot. So just just seeing how laid back
and cool. She would also getting her job done at
the same time for like a coach. As a coach,
you know what I'm saying, matter female or male. And
I found that out very very quickly, that the guys
didn't care. Um, as long as you can help them.
(16:06):
It's such a tough league, and to to be able
to to get better and to to stay on the
rosters their main goal. So if you can find a
way to help them out, um, and you know, build
that relationship with them, they don't care if you're a
woman or man. What does the future hold for coach King?
Here's what Antonio Gibson told us. The skuy's a limit
to be honest, she wants to be head coach somewhere.
I can see that happening. And the world is evolved
(16:29):
in like I think I've seen yesterday a five eight
girl duncan. I'm like, you gotta respect like and just
what the world is today, So you gotta respect it,
you know, give him a shot like they deserve it.
So you know, I feel like she's opened up the
doors for a lot of women. All Right, I'm gonna
take our listeners behind the scenes now to the league meeting.
Coach Vera. I get asked quite often if there was
(16:50):
an inflection point in this effort, if there was a
time where you pinched yourself or you looked around you said,
oh my god, changes happening. And that happened at the
league meeting in when you, unprompted, got up on stage
and challenged the other thirty one head coaches in the
NFL to consider hiring women. There was no script, We
(17:11):
didn't ask you to do this. You just said, hey, guys,
we're completely eliminating half the population. And what happened in
that room that no one was allowed, including media, was
hands started going up and I saw it from head
coaches asking you questions, what was your experience? What I
remember most about that Sam, was just answering the questions.
Was was was guys saying things and asking things and
(17:32):
just wanting to to understand um. And what was really
cool afterwards, what I had several guys that had come
up to me and talk to me, mostly because they
have daughters and you know, and and and one of
my favorites, my conversation I had with Sean McDermott, you know,
who actually had worked for me. So and talking with Sean.
It was really easy because, um, you know, I know
his family. I know is he's got a daughter who's
(17:54):
who's a wonderful young lady. Um, you know, she's she's
she's in her preteens, and she's gonna up and she's
gonna have an opportunity because of what you've started here, Sam,
and and and and what Jennifer being one of the first,
so that is what was important. And to have coaches
asked me about, you know, about stuff like that, I
think was great. And I will say one of the
(18:16):
questions I did get was it was asked me, well,
how is she meshing with everybody? And I said one
of the things that I found and talking with Ryan Vermillion,
our head trainer, when we when we brought women in
to the training room for the first time, he said,
the one thing that I do notice is that there
is a common effect that women trainers have on players
when they walk into the room, all the intensity starts
(18:39):
to just kind of come down. And I thought, wow,
that's pretty cool. And so I do see it with
Jennifer on the field, is that there is a little
bit of that that kind of brings everybody's you know,
ankst down just a little bit, and and so, and
if Jennifer will forgive me for putting this way, it's
like having the big sister walk into the room somebody
that they have some spect for. What's your advice for
(19:01):
women who want to get into football? I mean, the
first thing for me is is learned as much as possible, um,
because you never know when you're gonna get an opportunity,
and when you get the opportunity, you have to be
ready for. And that's what I always telling us. The
first thing I say is, you know, it's not it's
not enough to like football. You have to to really
love it and learn the intricacies that it takes to
be great as a coach um of a football team.
(19:23):
So um, because when the opportunity comes, they may be
your only shot to to prove yourself and show that
you deserve to be there. I first tell them, as
Jennifer said, learned everything, but but find a mentor find
somebody that is inside football right now that can help
you and guide you, um and connect you. UM. They
have to be an advocate for you. UM. Nothing speaks
(19:44):
louder than than having the right advocate at the right time.
And you know, Jennifer is one of those people that
did it the right way. She did it through your
program saying, but she did it because she played the game. Uh.
She she's learning the game, and she's passionate about the game.
As you said, everybody loves the game. But but you
have to be passionate and you've got to show people
that you are, and that, to me, is is what's supporting.
(20:07):
Up next, a raw discussion with Cleveland's Callie Brownson about
a mistake she made that she's discussing publicly for the
first time. You work so hard, you overcame so much,
and you go out and make this uncharacteristic, irresponsible, stupid
decision and you've ruined it all. So right now, I'm
(20:32):
bringing Brown's chief of staff, Callie Brownson, back for a
one on one conversation because I know her story well.
She's actually one of my best friends. I consider her
my family, and I think having her tell this story
will be valuable too many listeners. It's about overcoming obstacles
and mistakes and how those things have made her a
better football coach. Let's start with when you're young in
(20:54):
your relationship with football, talk to us about who you
were as a little kid. Yeah, I got introduced to
football at a the young age. My dad was always
a football fan. Uh. He went to University of Miami UM,
which really at the time, like late eighties, early nineties
was was a school that you were talking a lot
about when it came to football. So I grew up
watching you know, Miami Hurricanes football. Um. You know, with
(21:16):
my dad every Saturday and on Friday nights we would
go down to the local high school and watch football.
So it was kind of ingrained in me early. UM.
And baseball was too, We went to a lot of
Oriols games and so forth. But there was just something
about football for me that was different. I remember being
like nine years old and knocking on my dad's bedroom
door to say, like, I want to play. I'm sure
(21:38):
like he had some very nerve wracking experiences with that,
but he supported me. And I played when I was
nine and and loved every minute of it and had
so much support. My little league baseball coach was also
my football coach. Like it was kind of a perfect storm. Um.
And just who was around me and who was supporting
me through that, um, and you know it just it
just helped my love for the game grow even more
(21:59):
because now is able to put on the pads and
um and suit up and actually played instead of just
watching it on TV, which was the extent of my
experience with football to that point. So um yeah, and
that's kind of how it grew as a kid. And
then I got into high school and I wanted to
play again and kind of had the same deal of
all my friends are playing on the football team, why
can't I. This next part feels so familiar to women
(22:22):
who played this game. You want to play, your teammates
want you to play, You're good enough to play, but
you're not a guy. And I had my first brush
with like gender barriers when they told me I couldn't play.
And really that's the first real life situation that I
had where somebody said, like, women can't do this. Up
until then, I had just a ton of support. And
(22:44):
then all of a sudden, I just see this wall
kind of builds in front of me that says like, girls,
girls can't can't play football. I really kind of struggled
with it. And you know, again, enter my superhero of
a father who really coached me through that point of adversity.
Um and really helped me kind of put it where
it belonged for the time. And I'm really glad that
he did, because, like, you know, that helped me with
(23:05):
a lot of the skills that I have now of
like why is this happening this way? Why is this
obstacle in its way? Well, it's there for whatever reason,
and you've got to fight through it. And and so
that was really kind of my first lesson in that.
And and then you know, fast forward, got through got
to college and found the the Divas, and like that's
really where the love affair grew because I was an adult. Now.
(23:26):
She's talking about the DC Divas, which is a professional
women's football team in the Washington area. She says the
eight years she spent there gave her the coaching bug.
Then Callie came to the Women's Forum in I was
like working at nine to five and then coaching high
school football, and I was like, this is the best
it's ever going to get. And then you go to
the Forum and you're like, Nope, it can be better.
(23:48):
This can be your job, Like this could be you
know what you do every single day. So that to me,
I was just like I have to get into the NFL.
I don't know how I'm going to keep plugging these resources.
Like I remember writing thank you, know to some of
the people who spoke there, and and even if I
had just a small interaction, and um looking up their
bios and trying to include something significant in that thank
(24:09):
you letter from their bio that made you stand out,
you know, just everything you know, You're casting a big
net with that. Her efforts paid off. Callie got a
scouting internship with the New York Jets, but after that
ended nothing. She had three interviews with NFL teams and
went over three. I was so baffled by it because
I knew I interviewed well, I knew I made good connections,
(24:29):
and I just I didn't understand. And UM, I took it.
I took it pretty hard because I was like, this
was my shot to stay in the NFL, and I
don't know if I'll ever be able to get back
in now, And UM, I just really struggled with it,
and you and I talked, and it's just I was
pretty defeated. And I get a call to go down
(24:53):
and coach at in Thibadeau, Louisiana at the Manning Passing
Academy who they were doing this really special event for
women and girls, basically trying to teach young women and
girls the game. I didn't want to go. I was
still kind of like defeated, and I was like, you know,
I can't keep teasing myself with this football thing. You know,
if it's not gonna work, it's not work. And I
(25:13):
remember specifically telling you to get back on your fucking
horse and keep applying because this is going to work
out for you. And now I get to say I
told you so. Callie went to that camp run by
Archie Manning and his equally famous sons and met Buddy Tevens,
the head coach at Dartmouth College, and at the end
he grabbed me and was just kind of like, you know,
(25:34):
I'm sorry. I don't want to come off like like ignorant.
I'm not trying to be, and he's like, but I'm
gonna be honest with you, Like, up until we did
this event, I had never even envisioned women in football.
She impressed him so much that he offered her an internship.
Callie didn't even know where Dartmouth was. For the record,
it's in the IVY League and it's in New Hampshire,
but she went. She crushed the opportunity and was offered
(25:56):
a full time spot, making history as the first female
Division one football coach. This is what it sounded like
when coach Stevens surprised Callie and his players with the
news that she was staying on. Kelly came in again,
energy and so forth, and her agenda was a little
bit different. She liked to get into the coaching world
and on the field. Uh. And I've been very, very impressed,
(26:17):
so impressed with her that I like to draw off
her a position with us this year's At that moment,
Calli knew she had a home in the game of football,
and shortly thereafter, the Buffalo Bills came calling. With Buddy
Teven's blessing and encouragement, she took the position on coach
McDermott's staff, and a season later, when Kevin Stefanski got
(26:39):
the top job in Cleveland, he immediately reached out to Calli.
Her reputation had preceded her. Why is she so good
at what she does? She said, It all leads back
to her dad. I mean he was a single father.
So when I was young, Um, you know, my mom
struggled with some some things and um, you know their
marriage ended when I was pretty young. I think I
was four when they split and five when she moved
(27:00):
away from Virginia. UM, so my dad really raised my
brother and I by himself. We're young kids who needed
a lot and um, somehow still he never missed a game,
you know, he never missed any event that had to
do with our lives. Like I feel like I won
the lottery in having um Bruce Brownson as my dad,
and he still coaches me to this day. Like that's
(27:20):
kind of my joke with everybody, Like he was my
first ever coach, um and will forever be my you know,
my coach, my favorite coach. So he's no question your
biggest fan. Kelly. I know you haven't kind of publicly
talked about this, but would really love if you wouldn't
mind to talk to us about your relationship with your mom.
You know, my mom struggled, Um, and I guess you
can say it's like it's really like a lifelong thing,
but my mom struggles with addiction issues and um, they
(27:43):
were very strong when I was a kid and obviously
led to their marriage ending and it just not being
a very safe environment from my brother and I. Um,
you know, I have some crazy memories of just some
of the things that we went through, and um, you know, ultimately,
my dad made it a tough but obviously the right decision,
you know, for the future of my brother and I.
And I would see my mom and it was always
(28:04):
like you never knew what you were expecting when you saw,
Like my mom wasn't at my grand high school graduation
because she was in jail, you know. And it's like
I think back on that stuff and it's like really sad,
you know. It's there were so many moments that she
could have shown up for my brother and I, and
addiction took over and she just was not. She wasn't there.
She wasn't there for my college graduation. Um, she only
saw me play football once, like I played for eight years,
(28:25):
you know, And it's like, you know, there was a
lot of really crazy moments. So it was hard to
say that like I ever really had a relationship with her,
because you know, one of the things I've learned with
dealing with people in addiction is like you have who
you think they are, and then you have who they
really are and who they really are is the person
who's who's all encompassed by addiction. And sometimes we disappoint
ourselves because we're expecting them to be who we think
(28:46):
they are. Um, and I went through that my whole
life with my mom, like expecting her to change and
be different and it never happened. Um. But I will
say now, like she's actually been sober for a year now,
so um, that's been a positive I think, well almost
a year, and our relationships has become stronger because of it,
because you know, as she continues to put more time
(29:07):
and work hard at being sober and and making you know,
choosing her family and choosing the people that she loves,
I start to trust her more and and you know,
I ultimately do want to get to a point where
we can have a normal relationship again. But um, it's
it's really hard. It's really hard to navigate that. And like, uh,
the other thing I don't think people ever understand is
like how many people really go through this, Like are
(29:28):
going through this? Have family members or significant others or
friends who battle this stuff, Like it's it's a lot
of people are affected by it. And um, you know
there's a sense of community and that as well you know, Hey,
you know exactly what I'm going through. You know exactly
what it feels like. So um, it's definitely not the
cards that you wish that you're doubt. But again, I
think it's hard to say, like I'm not, I wouldn't
(29:49):
be the person I am today had I not gone
through everything that I did with her, you know, And
it's it's sad, but think there is a silver lining there.
We all know our childhoods shape us and form us.
How does that impact you as a coach on the
field right now with what you dealt with as a kid.
That's the beauty of the game of football, I think
is the adversity aspect of it and and never really
(30:10):
knowing you know, what's going to happen the next play,
but having to show up and be a hundred percent
every time. It is tough growing up the way that
we did in a way. I mean, my dad did
a fantastic job obviously, Um, but you know you're ready
for any challenge and and nothing is too big. You know,
nothing is too big and nothing deserves, you know, to
completely break you. You know that it's never as good
(30:30):
or as bad as it seems. Um, I've always loved
that quote because we think sometimes too it's like, oh god,
that was devastating. Well and you know, actually it's not devastating,
and you're gonna get to the other side of it,
and um, you know, everything is manageable in its own way.
And I think also to like I've really, especially as
i've gotten older and process through a lot of the
(30:51):
things that I went through as a kid, like I
take personal relationships so seriously and the relationships and the
rapport that you build with people. And I've learned that,
you know, just from you know, don't take anything for granted.
You know, these relationships and these people that you're around,
like it's not forever, you know, And so making sure
people know like I'm here for you, you know. And
and I think that's such a big part of building
(31:11):
rapport players is I'm not just here to take cash
in a paycheck. I'm here because I want you to
be successful. I don't care if we are at the
highest level of football and you're a professional and you
could probably take care of yourself. I just want you
to know that I'm always here. And Kelly has been
on the receiving end of that kind of support as well,
I got a call from her in the summer of
her opening line. I made a mistake. She had a
(31:34):
big one. She'd just been arrested for drunk driving. Did
you think your NFL career was over that day? Call?
No doubt, you know, I definitely did. I think, Like,
I just remember it feeling so heavy, you know, like
you work so hard, you overcame so much, and you
go out and make this uncharacteristic, irresponsible, stupid decision, and
(31:57):
you've ruined it all, you know, And that's really how
I felt, you know. And um, it's heavy. It's a
heavy feeling. She knew she made a reckless and dangerous mistake.
Thankfully no one was hurt. She is still trying to
move forward and ultimately my goal. Once I kind of
took a deep breath after everything was like, Okay, this happened.
(32:20):
You made this mistake. You know you did this. Um,
what are you gonna do about it? You know, who
are you going to be on the other side of this,
because you know the next step and what comes of
this is based off of that in your mentality? Um,
And it was really hard for me. You know, I
was inna I mean, you heard it. I was in
a really really dark place for a while, trying to
figure out how I was going to rebuild and what
(32:42):
the future was even going to look like after that.
I was so grateful for the support that I had
from this football team, um, from coach to Fanski, from
Andrew Berry, from the Haslems. Um. You know, they knew,
they know who I am as a person. Um, and
they knew that this was a low moment and and
and a poor mistake. Was the pressure of the job
any part of that? Uh? You know, and how did
(33:04):
you deal with what? What? What came after a training
camp from some of the fans. Yeah, And I don't
think there was like any correlation between the pressure of
the job or or any of that stuff. But um,
it was tough. You know, it was everywhere. And that
was incredibly difficult, you know, because you know, you become
you're the hero one day and then in the snap
(33:25):
of a finger, you're you're the villain the next. And
that's really what I felt like. And um, it was
hard because I'm still trying to I'm still trying to
recover personally, Like I'm still trying to forgive myself. I'm
still trying to work through not just like forgiving myself,
but like I let coach the Fansky down, I let
all of these people down, um, who really were in
(33:45):
my corner. Like That's what I felt like. And it
took me a while too. I think one of the
most powerful moments that I had was, and you know,
was I was actually, you know, really going to let
them down if I didn't pick myself back up, you know.
And that is what the biggest piece was, was I
was gonna let all those people who are in my
corner down if I didn't fix it, you know, and
if I didn't become better because of it, that would
(34:08):
have really been letting them down, you know. And that
was what was tasted me from coach to Fanski was
how are you going to be better? You know? How
are you? How are you going to fight to get
back into the game? And something we task our players
with all the time, so you know, it's it's something
that that he definitely placed on me. Are you gonna fight?
Like are you gonna fight for this? Because I know
you can. You know, I know you have it in you,
(34:28):
but you've got to prove it to yourself. Um, And
I'm I'm forever grateful for that. Kelly says this setback
is fueling her work twice as hard to reach her goals.
One of those goals is making sure women who are
interested in coaching football understand that they can succeed in
the NFL. I think we as females also kind of
fall into like the societal trap of like I don't
belong here. You know, we let that narrative kind of
(34:49):
bleed over in our own thinking. Sometimes I think you
really try and fight this whole, like I need people
to immediately feel like this is a great decision and
women had value and all this stuff, and you know,
I think we all do it. So we we bust
our tail, you know, for a while, just so like
everyone until we wait for that like affirmation of like okay, cool,
like they know that I just I'm the right one
for this shop, you know. And I think that's just
(35:11):
the reality for women in football right now, is we
do we work two times harder because we feel like
we're under this microscope of the second that we look
tired or mess up a task or whatever it may be,
somebody's gonna be like, see if that was a guy,
we wouldn't be here. And you know, talk about additional challenges.
You know, you and I have had this discussion in private,
but let's put it out there because we're we're ready.
(35:32):
You and I are both gay as hell, and we've
talked about the way that we present right, and so
you're very masculine presenting in your words. And I've seen
what people say on Twitter saying that you look like
NFL players in the past and things like that. What
has been the reception from you as a gay woman
in the NFL presenting as you do meeting with people
that are more traditional than people you meet every day.
(35:54):
I think this is such an interesting topic because, like,
let's be real, if you look too feminine, you don't
know what you're talking about as it pertains a football.
And if you look too masculine, you don't count as
a female in football. Like it's just like it's like
a catch two can't win, you know, And that's you know,
I've seen I've seen women on the other spectrum of it.
Who are you know, super feminine, Like, there's no way
she knows what she's talking about. You are you serious?
(36:15):
There's no way she does. And then yeah, you see
it on the masculine and too like, you know, she
doesn't count, she doesn't count towards. It's like that doesn't count. Um,
you know, I think like I've had a decent experience
with it. Um, you know, I don't pay attention to
that kind of stuff because again, you can't win that battle,
and ultimately, how I look is not gonna define me
(36:36):
as a football coach at the end of the day.
And I just I don't hold you know, that standard
to anybody else either, Like, hey, you don't look like
a football coach? How many people? How many coaches in
the NFL? Could you say that about a lot? I'm
sure like, you don't look like a football coach. Well,
what does a football coach look like? You know, explain
that to me? Um? You know, so I haven't had
any you know, I just don't. I just don't let
(36:58):
it bother me, you know. I I take a lot
of pride in being a female in football, and I think,
just like anybody else, like become in all shapes and sizes,
and that's a good thing for me. It's just like
I'm here, I'm a coach. I'm a coach for the
Cleveland Browns, and um, that's what it is like that's
that's that's it. It's gonna be stressful. There's a ton
of pressure. People are always going to doubt you, and
to be honest, if they doubt you, that means you're
doing something right because it's threatening their perception of like
(37:21):
what it should be. And people hate that. Callie, do
you want to be a head coach? One day? You
want to a positional coach? What do you have your
eyes on? I love this question, um, because I don't
have an answer for it, you know, Like I guess
the my kind of strategy with this is like four
years ago, I did had not Like if you would
have told me I was going to be here, I
would have been like, no way, like not you know,
again to the conversation, I've never know. We're in the
(37:42):
NFL again. So like what I've done over the past
four or five years is just put my head down
and worked really hard to build great relationships with people,
learned as much as possible, and these and doors have
opened and I've been ready for them because like I
think that's the other piece of it too, Like the
door can open, but like are you ready, Like are
you going to do a good job? On the other side,
of that door, because that's that's just as important. So
(38:05):
like that's been my focus. So I don't know what
the future brings. I don't know what, um, you know
what's going to present itself on the other side, Um,
but I'll be ready for it. Cal you are an
absolutely beacon of hope for so many people that are
trying to make it in football. And you know, I
can't I can't state it enough just how much people
(38:26):
like to be around you. And that's not just saying
you're a nice person or you're cool. It really is speaks.
It speaks loudly on how you carry yourself and how
you perform as a female in this league. Um, while
I bust your chops in private all the time, while
we're in public, I'm gonna thank you so much for
all that you do for women in football. You really
are an incredible trailblazer. Well I have to say the
(38:47):
same to you obviously. You know you're the goat and
this vision came true because of of what you wanted
to see, you know, happen in the league. And you
know you've obviously done so much and given you know,
all these women such a platform to honestly, like all
sappy stuff aside make their dreams come true. Be sure
to watch for Earning It, the five part TV series
(39:07):
from NBC and NFL Films, coming to NBC and Peacock
in January. And we can't wait to bring you the
next episode of this podcast, The Greatest show on Earth,
Diana with her helicopter, which people are still asking for helicopters.
We get nos, but they're like, she hit it, you know.
(39:27):
So people are like, how do we get dropped in?
How do we get lifted out? Like? Can a drone
bring me in? Come with us behind the scenes as
Super Bowl halftime show producer Dionne Harmon tells us what
it takes to pull off the twelve minute concert the
world is watching. And oh yeah, the musical genius that
is Quest Love is our halftime history. Once Prince gets there,
(39:49):
that Ray was the best thing that ever happened to him.
It was like he's magic. He he's actually magic. Yes,
he made this happen
On this episode of Earning It. I just think that
opportunities need to be there for everybody and in every aspect,
in every field and every opportunity. She has the respect
of the players. She certainly has a respect of everybody
in this building because she knows her job. She knows
what to do the new breed in the NFL. I
talked to head coaches Ron Rivera and Kevin Stefanski and
(00:22):
their groundbreaking female coaches Jennifer King and Callie Brownson, plus
a special overtime segment with Callie, whose personal story is
a must listen. I called you last night in preparation
for this interview and asked you if anything was out
of bounds, would you tell me air it out with
air it out. Here's a stat I love for the season.
(00:45):
The Cleveland Browns led the NFL in hiring participants from
the NFL Women's Forum, six in total. That's the program
that I started to create a pipeline to bring smart
females into the game. As far as progress goes, that's
a remark a couple number. To Brown's head coach Kevin Stefanski,
it just makes sense. It's a priority because I think
(01:06):
number one it's the right thing to do. And number two,
just I've always said this, why eliminate half your population
when you're filling a job and we just want the
most qualified person for that job, and to not be
inclusive in those decisions would be foolish. If you know
coach Stefanski, then you know he's anything but foolish. He's
(01:27):
not even forty yet and is already a head coach
in the NFL. In he was named Coach of the
Year after he led the Browns to their first playoff
appearance since two thousand and two. It also happened to
be his first season as a head coach. And I
believe your first higher was CALLI Browns in chief of staff.
Does this start at the top with d Haslem, you know,
part owner of the of the Cleveland Browns or why
(01:47):
did you make this a priority from day one? I
wanted to make sure that our coaching staff, uh, you know,
was reflective of our of our game, reflective of our communities,
and and we wanted people who thought differently and pushed
each other. And I definitely wanted to make sure that
that we had, you know, a woman or women on
our staff. Uh. And as I started asking around and
(02:07):
gathering some names, like you do for all these jobs.
You're looking for this coach and that coach, and you're
there's no shortage of names, which is a good thing.
Calli's name came up through a couple of different people,
and the more I checked in on her and found
out what she was about, it was a perfect fit.
The Browns hired Callie from the Buffalo Bills, where she
had been an offensive assistant coach for one season. Before that,
(02:30):
she was the first female to coach Division one college football.
She was also a phenomenal tackle football player. As chief
of staff, she basically does it all. She coaches, and
then she's in here in the equipment room if they
need extra help. And and she's I mean, she's really
running practice. And I don't say that sincerely, she's she's
running it. So she's supremely capable. Uh. And I just
(02:53):
felt like early on, once I met her and found
out more about her, she was somebody that we had
to have part of this operation. During the season, when
two coaches were out, she stepped in and became the
first woman in NFL history to lead a positional group.
In one game, she oversaw the tight ends and the
other wide receivers. She has the respect of the players.
(03:14):
She certainly has a respect of of everybody in this
building because she knows what she knows her job, she
knows what to do, she knows the offense, so it
was pretty seamless. We talked about what her presence on
the field means for the next generation, specifically his five
year old daughter, Juliette. I don't feel like I need
to be a father of a daughter to get equity,
Like I don't feel like I needed that, but certainly,
(03:36):
just you know my kids in general, I I just
don't want them to be limited in any way, and
especially with with women in football. Now, these young girls
can look and say, hey, there's Callie. That's what Cali
is doing. And I just think it's important that there's
examples out there, and years from now, when when Juliet
is deciding what she wants to be, there's gonna be
countless examples of of women in our sport, because this
(04:00):
sport is it's I've said this before, and I really
believe this. I love football. I love what it teaches
us um and it's a kid's game and it's not
a boys game. And it's not a girls game. It's
a kid's game, and I just don't want it to
ever be uh limiting one sect of people. For for
whatever reason, his answer reminded me of something Billy Jeane
(04:22):
King said a few weeks back about the importance of
male ally ship. If I hadn't had male allies, I
wouldn't be talking to you and having the opportunities I've
had because men are in power, and they're the ones
that have to change because they're the ones that can
change things fast. Other coaches in the NFL and in
other sports as well, are looking to coach. To Fanski
(04:44):
as an example, coach, when you were hiring you know,
Callie and other women on your coaching staff, you know,
a couple of other head coaches in the league admitted
to us that, you know, they weren't nervous enough to
stop them from hiring women, but there was a little
anxiety about shaking things up, you know, after football has
been one way for hundred years. Were you nervous at
all bringing on female coaches? Yeah, I really wasn't. And listen,
(05:05):
I think it's it's maybe ten years ago, twenty years ago.
Maybe there was some closed minded this in our game.
I don't that doesn't exist in our building. I wouldn't
allow it to exist in this building. Kelly actually called
me right after she was hired. It was a huge decision.
At the time, she was already living her dream as
a coach in Buffalo. And he explained this role that
(05:27):
he was thinking about, this cheap staff role, and I
remember saying to him, you know, coach, that's great, that
sounds like an incredible opportunity, but like, I really don't
want to get pulled away from football and I'm worried
if I take this role, it's gonna pull me away
from coaching and I'm terrified of that. And he just
laughed and said, can I tell you something And I
said yeah, and he was like, you know, this was
(05:49):
my first job. That was my first job in the NFL.
And I was just like, okay, cch you got it.
And he was like, you know, I'd take it really
seriously that it doesn't pull you away from football. In fact,
I think like it's one of the best educations you
can get in that role because you're seeing so much
and you're involved in so much. And he was able
to tell her what he envisioned for her career to
(06:09):
three years out. Why are you passionate about developing not
just women but young coaches and and why do you
put so much time into that part of coaching development? Yeah,
I just want to be so intentional about development. I
think it's so easy to say, hey, let's get all
these you know, young coaches in there, thrown in a
room and they'll figure it out, and in some ways
you will, okay, And there is a lot to be
(06:30):
said for throwing coaches in a room and telling them
to get some work done. But I think we've tried
to be intentional about it. And with each coach uh
And and again young and old, quality control to coordinator.
We we've put together a program in terms of this
is how we're gonna develop our coaches. And we spent
a whole week in March uh and and had the
coordinator's interview for a head coaching job, and we had
(06:53):
the position coaches interview for a coordinator job, and we
had the quality control coaches interview for a position job,
had Callie outviously interviewed for a position job. And I
just feel like I don't want to just say that
we're about development and not be about it. Coach. Do
you think we'll see a female in the head in
the head spot, the head coach position anytime soon? What's
what does the future look like for female coaches in
(07:14):
the NFL. Yeah, I mean it's only a matter of time.
And I believe that sincerely, sincerely, just because we have
such quality people and it's only a matter of time.
As those quality people grow in this profession. Uh, some
of them may may be a position coach next year,
and a coordinator in a couple of years, and then
the next thing, you know, it's a head coach. And
(07:36):
I just think, uh, we we have too good, too
good of people for that not to happen, and I
think it's gonna happen soon coming up. Jen King could
see her future by spying, that's right, spying on Ron
Rivera and his players that will go outside and actually
peek through the gate just to watch practice and kind
of duck security as they would drop around in their
(07:58):
little golf cars. But that was so close and kind
of far away at the same time. How she got
them to open the gate for her next I could
not have built the pipeline for women in the NFL
without Ron Rivera. He's a former player and current head
(08:20):
coach of the Washington football team. He was the first
head coach to get behind this effort. Well, I think
a big part of is, you know, I am a
girl dad. Um. You know, my daughter, Courtney has has
has competed uh collegiately, competed in the international level. She's coached,
and my wife is coached, and my wife has coached
collegiately and professionally. And so I just think that that
(08:42):
opportunities need to be there for everybody and in every aspect,
in every field and every opportunity. I'm not sure you
understand the value that you have to this effort, Coach Rivera,
that when we had that first event at Pro Bowl
five years ago, that you were the only head coach
there and you were talking to the women and in
firing the women to get involved and submit their resumes.
(09:03):
But your passion for diversity, coach, spans beyond women. You
have a very diverse coaching staff. That's always been a
passion of yours. Why is diversity a competitive advantage for you? Well,
you know it's funny, Sam, diversity kind of happened naturally
organically as I was interviewing people to be on my
coaching staff. Um, I just hired who I felt were
(09:24):
some of the better candidates, some of the better people
that I got to know and understand. It just so
happened they were all diverse. So to me, it's not
about gender, it's not about race. Um, it's it's not
about anything. It's just about being the best person for
the job. Here's a true story. At a league meeting
in coach Vera's wife Stephanie raised her hand at a
(09:44):
panel that was hosted by Jane Goodell. She asked why
there were no female coaches in the league and what
NFL leadership was doing to change that. I told her
to give me a few months. Well, I will say this,
and I would be remiss if I didn't admit this.
A lot of my successes in part because she's my partner. Um.
You know, she is a person that has always been
a sounding board for me. Um. She gives me a
(10:06):
different perspective, a perspective that that and excuse me for
putting this way, but only a woman could have. And
I found that that sharing her, sharing her opinion with
me has helped me make some pretty good decisions and
and so that's why it was important to me to
to make sure I hired the most qualified people, and
if those people happened to be women, then they were
going to get hired. One of those people Ron hired
(10:29):
is assistant running back coach Jennifer King. She's been with
him since his time at the Carolina Panthers. We actually
met before that when she emailed looking for coaching opportunities.
At the time, I was I was a head coach
coaching college basketball and I was in Atlanta kind of
wasting time until I was going to the gym to recruit,
and uh, I don't know, something just kind of told
(10:49):
me to reach out to this lady named Sam Rappaport.
I had heard about my really UM wanted to get
into football, UM at a higher level. I've been coaching
at some lower levels and I've see playing football at
that time for a lot of years. But I want
to get into coaching. And I emailed you blindly. I
remember you emailed me right back, and we were soon, uh,
you know, chatting on the phone about you know what
(11:10):
I wanted to do. You were a quarterback too. We
can relate on that on many levels. But talk to
me about your playing experience. Yeah, I was fortunate to
play for thirteen seasons, um, mainly as a quarterback, and
um had a successful career. You know, had some great
teammates on a few championships and um, you know, it's
nothing like being able to step out on the grass
and play football and compete. Uh, you know, with your sisters.
(11:32):
This might sound funny to a lot of people, but
it really is a sisterhood. We just knocked each other
on our asses for fun. In Jen King earned a
spot at the Women's Forum, so she was able to
get in front of head coaches and general managers. Yeah,
it was. It was such a great event just to
meet other women who wanted to be in football. I
think that was the first thing I noticed. It was
a room full of women who wanted to work in football,
(11:53):
which was a great opportunity. And for us to be
in front of those decision makers and coaches and general
managers was big. And um, you know, at the time,
my office was next door to the Panther's facility, and um,
you know, once I saw coach Rivera there, I had
to kind of figure out the way how to shoot
my shot. Jen was coaching basketball at a College in
Charlotte and would take any opportunity to spy on practice.
(12:13):
And I was next door. So usually in the mornings
when I got into the office, UM, sometimes they will
be practicing, or sometimes they would practice later, so I
would go outside and actually peeked through the gate just
to watch practice and kind of duck security as they
would drive around in their little golf cars. But um,
I was so close and kind of far away at
the same time. So obviously the forum allowed me to
(12:34):
build that bridge with Coach Rivera and um, we kind
of went from there. And it's funny because I can
remember because behind their practice facil or their stadium and
shoot me, their their their arena. They had these uh
cold tops, and her and her players they would come
out and they soaked their legs and every now that
I would notice, I'm looking up over the hills. So
when she told me that's where they were, I started thinking, Okay,
now that makes sense. Ron says he was blown away
(12:57):
by her passion for the game. When I asked her,
you know, what is your goal? She said to coach
coach in the NFL, And that really was was kind
of the start of our conversation and I told her,
I said, you know what, when we get into O
T S and minigan, don't you come by. And so
we stayed in touch, and she came by and she
got a chance to watch practice for the first time,
(13:17):
and it just kind of be out there and and
and you know, I would always look over and just
kind of see how she was doing, and you could
tell she was enjoying being there, so so to me,
I could feel the passion. I kind of just kept
getting invited back. He kept everything that they had had
mini camp and then ultimately training camp. To be able
to go to training camp with them was huge. It
just expanded my knowledge and my you know, my growth
(13:38):
as a coach so much. So you know, he always
told me to stay ready, and that's that's one thing
that I tried to do. So every time I was
invited back and I was prepared for that next step.
The next step was an internship with the Panthers. Coach
Rivera ultimately brought her with him when he took the
head job at the Washington football team. Jen is the
first black woman to coach full time in NFL history.
(13:59):
It's so and just to to see someone who who
kind of looks like you doing something, especially on TV.
That's why I think it's so important to see. And
I think that's something that um, you know, all the
women coaching now in the NFL, along with myself, we
take it very seriously as far as people seeing us,
you know, and just that exposure. I can't imagine, you know,
as an eight year old ten year old watching football
(14:20):
with my dad, if I would have saw a female
coach on the sideline, the impact that they would have
had on me then. So I think that's why we
take it so seriously now, just because we know of
the you know, the impact that we can have, and
how have the players reacted to a female coach? You know.
The biggest thing I have found, Marshal anything else, Sam,
is players want to be coached by anybody that can
help them. They really do. And they will listen to
(14:41):
anybody that has a voice that can help them. That's
the biggest thing. And it's been kind of fun watching
Jennifer find her voice and I and and I don't
know if you knew this, Jennifer, but I called Sam
a couple of times about advice. I'm dealing with you
because one of the things when you first got started, Um,
you your voice wasn't caring. And we talked a little
(15:04):
bit and and Sam told me and I asked her,
I said, how can I get her to be a
little bit more voiceterous? And she said, you gotta tell her. So,
I don't know if you remember it. I would settle
up to and I talked a little bit about hey,
get in there, do that. Because one of the things
that that that I know what happens with with with
with with young coaches, new coaches, um, is that they're
a little heads and because they they're kind of trying
to feel their way through things. But as I watched
(15:26):
Jennifer start to find her voice, I would watch and
I would watch these players come to her and ask her, hey,
what did you see? You know, um, what can I
do to make this better? Antonio Gibson is a running
back for the Washington football team. He told us about
his first impression of coach King just back and cool.
She would you know, she she's not much of a
(15:46):
rod and that's that's not her. She's played football, you know,
so she's been through a lot. She um, she speaks
on a lot. So just just seeing how laid back
and cool. She would also getting her job done at
the same time for like a coach. As a coach,
you know what I'm saying, matter female or male. And
I found that out very very quickly, that the guys
didn't care. Um, as long as you can help them.
(16:06):
It's such a tough league, and to to be able
to to get better and to to stay on the
rosters their main goal. So if you can find a
way to help them out, um, and you know, build
that relationship with them, they don't care if you're a
woman or man. What does the future hold for coach King?
Here's what Antonio Gibson told us. The skuy's a limit
to be honest, she wants to be head coach somewhere.
I can see that happening. And the world is evolved
(16:29):
in like I think I've seen yesterday a five eight
girl duncan. I'm like, you gotta respect like and just
what the world is today, So you gotta respect it,
you know, give him a shot like they deserve it.
So you know, I feel like she's opened up the
doors for a lot of women. All Right, I'm gonna
take our listeners behind the scenes now to the league meeting.
Coach Vera. I get asked quite often if there was
(16:50):
an inflection point in this effort, if there was a
time where you pinched yourself or you looked around you said,
oh my god, changes happening. And that happened at the
league meeting in when you, unprompted, got up on stage
and challenged the other thirty one head coaches in the
NFL to consider hiring women. There was no script, We
(17:11):
didn't ask you to do this. You just said, hey, guys,
we're completely eliminating half the population. And what happened in
that room that no one was allowed, including media, was
hands started going up and I saw it from head
coaches asking you questions, what was your experience? What I
remember most about that Sam, was just answering the questions.
Was was was guys saying things and asking things and
(17:32):
just wanting to to understand um. And what was really
cool afterwards, what I had several guys that had come
up to me and talk to me, mostly because they
have daughters and you know, and and and one of
my favorites, my conversation I had with Sean McDermott, you know,
who actually had worked for me. So and talking with Sean.
It was really easy because, um, you know, I know
his family. I know is he's got a daughter who's
(17:54):
who's a wonderful young lady. Um, you know, she's she's
she's in her preteens, and she's gonna up and she's
gonna have an opportunity because of what you've started here, Sam,
and and and and what Jennifer being one of the first,
so that is what was important. And to have coaches
asked me about, you know, about stuff like that, I
think was great. And I will say one of the
(18:16):
questions I did get was it was asked me, well,
how is she meshing with everybody? And I said one
of the things that I found and talking with Ryan Vermillion,
our head trainer, when we when we brought women in
to the training room for the first time, he said,
the one thing that I do notice is that there
is a common effect that women trainers have on players
when they walk into the room, all the intensity starts
(18:39):
to just kind of come down. And I thought, wow,
that's pretty cool. And so I do see it with
Jennifer on the field, is that there is a little
bit of that that kind of brings everybody's you know,
ankst down just a little bit, and and so, and
if Jennifer will forgive me for putting this way, it's
like having the big sister walk into the room somebody
that they have some spect for. What's your advice for
(19:01):
women who want to get into football? I mean, the
first thing for me is is learned as much as possible, um,
because you never know when you're gonna get an opportunity,
and when you get the opportunity, you have to be
ready for. And that's what I always telling us. The
first thing I say is, you know, it's not it's
not enough to like football. You have to to really
love it and learn the intricacies that it takes to
be great as a coach um of a football team.
(19:23):
So um, because when the opportunity comes, they may be
your only shot to to prove yourself and show that
you deserve to be there. I first tell them, as
Jennifer said, learned everything, but but find a mentor find
somebody that is inside football right now that can help
you and guide you, um and connect you. UM. They
have to be an advocate for you. UM. Nothing speaks
(19:44):
louder than than having the right advocate at the right time.
And you know, Jennifer is one of those people that
did it the right way. She did it through your
program saying, but she did it because she played the game. Uh.
She she's learning the game, and she's passionate about the game.
As you said, everybody loves the game. But but you
have to be passionate and you've got to show people
that you are, and that, to me, is is what's supporting.
(20:07):
Up next, a raw discussion with Cleveland's Callie Brownson about
a mistake she made that she's discussing publicly for the
first time. You work so hard, you overcame so much,
and you go out and make this uncharacteristic, irresponsible, stupid
decision and you've ruined it all. So right now, I'm
(20:32):
bringing Brown's chief of staff, Callie Brownson, back for a
one on one conversation because I know her story well.
She's actually one of my best friends. I consider her
my family, and I think having her tell this story
will be valuable too many listeners. It's about overcoming obstacles
and mistakes and how those things have made her a
better football coach. Let's start with when you're young in
(20:54):
your relationship with football, talk to us about who you
were as a little kid. Yeah, I got introduced to
football at a the young age. My dad was always
a football fan. Uh. He went to University of Miami UM,
which really at the time, like late eighties, early nineties
was was a school that you were talking a lot
about when it came to football. So I grew up
watching you know, Miami Hurricanes football. Um. You know, with
(21:16):
my dad every Saturday and on Friday nights we would
go down to the local high school and watch football.
So it was kind of ingrained in me early. UM.
And baseball was too, We went to a lot of
Oriols games and so forth. But there was just something
about football for me that was different. I remember being
like nine years old and knocking on my dad's bedroom
door to say, like, I want to play. I'm sure
(21:38):
like he had some very nerve wracking experiences with that,
but he supported me. And I played when I was
nine and and loved every minute of it and had
so much support. My little league baseball coach was also
my football coach. Like it was kind of a perfect storm. Um.
And just who was around me and who was supporting
me through that, um, and you know it just it
just helped my love for the game grow even more
(21:59):
because now is able to put on the pads and
um and suit up and actually played instead of just
watching it on TV, which was the extent of my
experience with football to that point. So um yeah, and
that's kind of how it grew as a kid. And
then I got into high school and I wanted to
play again and kind of had the same deal of
all my friends are playing on the football team, why
can't I. This next part feels so familiar to women
(22:22):
who played this game. You want to play, your teammates
want you to play, You're good enough to play, but
you're not a guy. And I had my first brush
with like gender barriers when they told me I couldn't play.
And really that's the first real life situation that I
had where somebody said, like, women can't do this. Up
until then, I had just a ton of support. And
(22:44):
then all of a sudden, I just see this wall
kind of builds in front of me that says like, girls,
girls can't can't play football. I really kind of struggled
with it. And you know, again, enter my superhero of
a father who really coached me through that point of adversity.
Um and really helped me kind of put it where
it belonged for the time. And I'm really glad that
he did, because, like, you know, that helped me with
(23:05):
a lot of the skills that I have now of
like why is this happening this way? Why is this
obstacle in its way? Well, it's there for whatever reason,
and you've got to fight through it. And and so
that was really kind of my first lesson in that.
And and then you know, fast forward, got through got
to college and found the the Divas, and like that's
really where the love affair grew because I was an adult. Now.
(23:26):
She's talking about the DC Divas, which is a professional
women's football team in the Washington area. She says the
eight years she spent there gave her the coaching bug.
Then Callie came to the Women's Forum in I was
like working at nine to five and then coaching high
school football, and I was like, this is the best
it's ever going to get. And then you go to
the Forum and you're like, Nope, it can be better.
(23:48):
This can be your job, Like this could be you
know what you do every single day. So that to me,
I was just like I have to get into the NFL.
I don't know how I'm going to keep plugging these resources.
Like I remember writing thank you, know to some of
the people who spoke there, and and even if I
had just a small interaction, and um looking up their
bios and trying to include something significant in that thank
(24:09):
you letter from their bio that made you stand out,
you know, just everything you know, You're casting a big
net with that. Her efforts paid off. Callie got a
scouting internship with the New York Jets, but after that
ended nothing. She had three interviews with NFL teams and
went over three. I was so baffled by it because
I knew I interviewed well, I knew I made good connections,
(24:29):
and I just I didn't understand. And UM, I took it.
I took it pretty hard because I was like, this
was my shot to stay in the NFL, and I
don't know if I'll ever be able to get back
in now, And UM, I just really struggled with it,
and you and I talked, and it's just I was
pretty defeated. And I get a call to go down
(24:53):
and coach at in Thibadeau, Louisiana at the Manning Passing
Academy who they were doing this really special event for
women and girls, basically trying to teach young women and
girls the game. I didn't want to go. I was
still kind of like defeated, and I was like, you know,
I can't keep teasing myself with this football thing. You know,
if it's not gonna work, it's not work. And I
(25:13):
remember specifically telling you to get back on your fucking
horse and keep applying because this is going to work
out for you. And now I get to say I
told you so. Callie went to that camp run by
Archie Manning and his equally famous sons and met Buddy Tevens,
the head coach at Dartmouth College, and at the end
he grabbed me and was just kind of like, you know,
(25:34):
I'm sorry. I don't want to come off like like ignorant.
I'm not trying to be, and he's like, but I'm
gonna be honest with you, Like, up until we did
this event, I had never even envisioned women in football.
She impressed him so much that he offered her an internship.
Callie didn't even know where Dartmouth was. For the record,
it's in the IVY League and it's in New Hampshire,
but she went. She crushed the opportunity and was offered
(25:56):
a full time spot, making history as the first female
Division one football coach. This is what it sounded like
when coach Stevens surprised Callie and his players with the
news that she was staying on. Kelly came in again,
energy and so forth, and her agenda was a little
bit different. She liked to get into the coaching world
and on the field. Uh. And I've been very, very impressed,
(26:17):
so impressed with her that I like to draw off
her a position with us this year's At that moment,
Calli knew she had a home in the game of football,
and shortly thereafter, the Buffalo Bills came calling. With Buddy
Teven's blessing and encouragement, she took the position on coach
McDermott's staff, and a season later, when Kevin Stefanski got
(26:39):
the top job in Cleveland, he immediately reached out to Calli.
Her reputation had preceded her. Why is she so good
at what she does? She said, It all leads back
to her dad. I mean he was a single father.
So when I was young, Um, you know, my mom
struggled with some some things and um, you know their
marriage ended when I was pretty young. I think I
was four when they split and five when she moved
(27:00):
away from Virginia. UM, so my dad really raised my
brother and I by himself. We're young kids who needed
a lot and um, somehow still he never missed a game,
you know, he never missed any event that had to
do with our lives. Like I feel like I won
the lottery in having um Bruce Brownson as my dad,
and he still coaches me to this day. Like that's
(27:20):
kind of my joke with everybody, Like he was my
first ever coach, um and will forever be my you know,
my coach, my favorite coach. So he's no question your
biggest fan. Kelly. I know you haven't kind of publicly
talked about this, but would really love if you wouldn't
mind to talk to us about your relationship with your mom.
You know, my mom struggled, Um, and I guess you
can say it's like it's really like a lifelong thing,
but my mom struggles with addiction issues and um, they
(27:43):
were very strong when I was a kid and obviously
led to their marriage ending and it just not being
a very safe environment from my brother and I. Um,
you know, I have some crazy memories of just some
of the things that we went through, and um, you know, ultimately,
my dad made it a tough but obviously the right decision,
you know, for the future of my brother and I.
And I would see my mom and it was always
(28:04):
like you never knew what you were expecting when you saw,
Like my mom wasn't at my grand high school graduation
because she was in jail, you know. And it's like
I think back on that stuff and it's like really sad,
you know. It's there were so many moments that she
could have shown up for my brother and I, and
addiction took over and she just was not. She wasn't there.
She wasn't there for my college graduation. Um, she only
saw me play football once, like I played for eight years,
(28:25):
you know, And it's like, you know, there was a
lot of really crazy moments. So it was hard to
say that like I ever really had a relationship with her,
because you know, one of the things I've learned with
dealing with people in addiction is like you have who
you think they are, and then you have who they
really are and who they really are is the person
who's who's all encompassed by addiction. And sometimes we disappoint
ourselves because we're expecting them to be who we think
(28:46):
they are. Um, and I went through that my whole
life with my mom, like expecting her to change and
be different and it never happened. Um. But I will
say now, like she's actually been sober for a year now,
so um, that's been a positive I think, well almost
a year, and our relationships has become stronger because of it,
because you know, as she continues to put more time
(29:07):
and work hard at being sober and and making you know,
choosing her family and choosing the people that she loves,
I start to trust her more and and you know,
I ultimately do want to get to a point where
we can have a normal relationship again. But um, it's
it's really hard. It's really hard to navigate that. And like, uh,
the other thing I don't think people ever understand is
like how many people really go through this, Like are
(29:28):
going through this? Have family members or significant others or
friends who battle this stuff, Like it's it's a lot
of people are affected by it. And um, you know
there's a sense of community and that as well you know, Hey,
you know exactly what I'm going through. You know exactly
what it feels like. So um, it's definitely not the
cards that you wish that you're doubt. But again, I
think it's hard to say, like I'm not, I wouldn't
(29:49):
be the person I am today had I not gone
through everything that I did with her, you know, And
it's it's sad, but think there is a silver lining there.
We all know our childhoods shape us and form us.
How does that impact you as a coach on the
field right now with what you dealt with as a kid.
That's the beauty of the game of football, I think
is the adversity aspect of it and and never really
(30:10):
knowing you know, what's going to happen the next play,
but having to show up and be a hundred percent
every time. It is tough growing up the way that
we did in a way. I mean, my dad did
a fantastic job obviously, Um, but you know you're ready
for any challenge and and nothing is too big. You know,
nothing is too big and nothing deserves, you know, to
completely break you. You know that it's never as good
(30:30):
or as bad as it seems. Um, I've always loved
that quote because we think sometimes too it's like, oh god,
that was devastating. Well and you know, actually it's not devastating,
and you're gonna get to the other side of it,
and um, you know, everything is manageable in its own way.
And I think also to like I've really, especially as
i've gotten older and process through a lot of the
(30:51):
things that I went through as a kid, like I
take personal relationships so seriously and the relationships and the
rapport that you build with people. And I've learned that,
you know, just from you know, don't take anything for granted.
You know, these relationships and these people that you're around,
like it's not forever, you know, And so making sure
people know like I'm here for you, you know. And
and I think that's such a big part of building
(31:11):
rapport players is I'm not just here to take cash
in a paycheck. I'm here because I want you to
be successful. I don't care if we are at the
highest level of football and you're a professional and you
could probably take care of yourself. I just want you
to know that I'm always here. And Kelly has been
on the receiving end of that kind of support as well,
I got a call from her in the summer of
her opening line. I made a mistake. She had a
(31:34):
big one. She'd just been arrested for drunk driving. Did
you think your NFL career was over that day? Call?
No doubt, you know, I definitely did. I think, Like,
I just remember it feeling so heavy, you know, like
you work so hard, you overcame so much, and you
go out and make this uncharacteristic, irresponsible, stupid decision, and
(31:57):
you've ruined it all, you know, And that's really how
I felt, you know. And um, it's heavy. It's a
heavy feeling. She knew she made a reckless and dangerous mistake.
Thankfully no one was hurt. She is still trying to
move forward and ultimately my goal. Once I kind of
took a deep breath after everything was like, Okay, this happened.
(32:20):
You made this mistake. You know you did this. Um,
what are you gonna do about it? You know, who
are you going to be on the other side of this,
because you know the next step and what comes of
this is based off of that in your mentality? Um,
And it was really hard for me. You know, I
was inna I mean, you heard it. I was in
a really really dark place for a while, trying to
figure out how I was going to rebuild and what
(32:42):
the future was even going to look like after that.
I was so grateful for the support that I had
from this football team, um, from coach to Fanski, from
Andrew Berry, from the Haslems. Um. You know, they knew,
they know who I am as a person. Um, and
they knew that this was a low moment and and
and a poor mistake. Was the pressure of the job
any part of that? Uh? You know, and how did
(33:04):
you deal with what? What? What came after a training
camp from some of the fans. Yeah, And I don't
think there was like any correlation between the pressure of
the job or or any of that stuff. But um,
it was tough. You know, it was everywhere. And that
was incredibly difficult, you know, because you know, you become
you're the hero one day and then in the snap
(33:25):
of a finger, you're you're the villain the next. And
that's really what I felt like. And um, it was
hard because I'm still trying to I'm still trying to
recover personally, Like I'm still trying to forgive myself. I'm
still trying to work through not just like forgiving myself,
but like I let coach the Fansky down, I let
all of these people down, um, who really were in
(33:45):
my corner. Like That's what I felt like. And it
took me a while too. I think one of the
most powerful moments that I had was, and you know,
was I was actually, you know, really going to let
them down if I didn't pick myself back up, you know.
And that is what the biggest piece was, was I
was gonna let all those people who are in my
corner down if I didn't fix it, you know, and
if I didn't become better because of it, that would
(34:08):
have really been letting them down, you know. And that
was what was tasted me from coach to Fanski was
how are you going to be better? You know? How
are you? How are you going to fight to get
back into the game? And something we task our players
with all the time, so you know, it's it's something
that that he definitely placed on me. Are you gonna fight?
Like are you gonna fight for this? Because I know
you can. You know, I know you have it in you,
(34:28):
but you've got to prove it to yourself. Um, And
I'm I'm forever grateful for that. Kelly says this setback
is fueling her work twice as hard to reach her goals.
One of those goals is making sure women who are
interested in coaching football understand that they can succeed in
the NFL. I think we as females also kind of
fall into like the societal trap of like I don't
belong here. You know, we let that narrative kind of
(34:49):
bleed over in our own thinking. Sometimes I think you
really try and fight this whole, like I need people
to immediately feel like this is a great decision and
women had value and all this stuff, and you know,
I think we all do it. So we we bust
our tail, you know, for a while, just so like
everyone until we wait for that like affirmation of like okay, cool,
like they know that I just I'm the right one
for this shop, you know. And I think that's just
(35:11):
the reality for women in football right now, is we
do we work two times harder because we feel like
we're under this microscope of the second that we look
tired or mess up a task or whatever it may be,
somebody's gonna be like, see if that was a guy,
we wouldn't be here. And you know, talk about additional challenges.
You know, you and I have had this discussion in private,
but let's put it out there because we're we're ready.
(35:32):
You and I are both gay as hell, and we've
talked about the way that we present right, and so
you're very masculine presenting in your words. And I've seen
what people say on Twitter saying that you look like
NFL players in the past and things like that. What
has been the reception from you as a gay woman
in the NFL presenting as you do meeting with people
that are more traditional than people you meet every day.
(35:54):
I think this is such an interesting topic because, like,
let's be real, if you look too feminine, you don't
know what you're talking about as it pertains a football.
And if you look too masculine, you don't count as
a female in football. Like it's just like it's like
a catch two can't win, you know, And that's you know,
I've seen I've seen women on the other spectrum of it.
Who are you know, super feminine, Like, there's no way
she knows what she's talking about. You are you serious?
(36:15):
There's no way she does. And then yeah, you see
it on the masculine and too like, you know, she
doesn't count, she doesn't count towards. It's like that doesn't count. Um,
you know, I think like I've had a decent experience
with it. Um, you know, I don't pay attention to
that kind of stuff because again, you can't win that battle,
and ultimately, how I look is not gonna define me
(36:36):
as a football coach at the end of the day.
And I just I don't hold you know, that standard
to anybody else either, Like, hey, you don't look like
a football coach? How many people? How many coaches in
the NFL? Could you say that about a lot? I'm
sure like, you don't look like a football coach. Well,
what does a football coach look like? You know, explain
that to me? Um? You know, so I haven't had
any you know, I just don't. I just don't let
(36:58):
it bother me, you know. I I take a lot
of pride in being a female in football, and I think,
just like anybody else, like become in all shapes and sizes,
and that's a good thing for me. It's just like
I'm here, I'm a coach. I'm a coach for the
Cleveland Browns, and um, that's what it is like that's
that's that's it. It's gonna be stressful. There's a ton
of pressure. People are always going to doubt you, and
to be honest, if they doubt you, that means you're
doing something right because it's threatening their perception of like
(37:21):
what it should be. And people hate that. Callie, do
you want to be a head coach? One day? You
want to a positional coach? What do you have your
eyes on? I love this question, um, because I don't
have an answer for it, you know, Like I guess
the my kind of strategy with this is like four
years ago, I did had not Like if you would
have told me I was going to be here, I
would have been like, no way, like not you know,
again to the conversation, I've never know. We're in the
(37:42):
NFL again. So like what I've done over the past
four or five years is just put my head down
and worked really hard to build great relationships with people,
learned as much as possible, and these and doors have
opened and I've been ready for them because like I
think that's the other piece of it too, Like the
door can open, but like are you ready, Like are
you going to do a good job? On the other side,
of that door, because that's that's just as important. So
(38:05):
like that's been my focus. So I don't know what
the future brings. I don't know what, um, you know
what's going to present itself on the other side, Um,
but I'll be ready for it. Cal you are an
absolutely beacon of hope for so many people that are
trying to make it in football. And you know, I
can't I can't state it enough just how much people
(38:26):
like to be around you. And that's not just saying
you're a nice person or you're cool. It really is speaks.
It speaks loudly on how you carry yourself and how
you perform as a female in this league. Um, while
I bust your chops in private all the time, while
we're in public, I'm gonna thank you so much for
all that you do for women in football. You really
are an incredible trailblazer. Well I have to say the
(38:47):
same to you obviously. You know you're the goat and
this vision came true because of of what you wanted
to see, you know, happen in the league. And you
know you've obviously done so much and given you know,
all these women such a platform to honestly, like all
sappy stuff aside make their dreams come true. Be sure
to watch for Earning It, the five part TV series
(39:07):
from NBC and NFL Films, coming to NBC and Peacock
in January. And we can't wait to bring you the
next episode of this podcast, The Greatest show on Earth,
Diana with her helicopter, which people are still asking for helicopters.
We get nos, but they're like, she hit it, you know.
(39:27):
So people are like, how do we get dropped in?
How do we get lifted out? Like? Can a drone
bring me in? Come with us behind the scenes as
Super Bowl halftime show producer Dionne Harmon tells us what
it takes to pull off the twelve minute concert the
world is watching. And oh yeah, the musical genius that
is Quest Love is our halftime history. Once Prince gets there,
(39:49):
that Ray was the best thing that ever happened to him.
It was like he's magic. He he's actually magic. Yes,
he made this happen
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