April 21, 2025 • 56 mins
With the NFL Draft just days away, Bucky Brooks and Lance Zierlein team up for a full draft preview. The guys go position by position to spotlight under-the-radar prospects who haven’t been getting much national attention. They break down each player’s strengths, weaknesses, and potential NFL fit, plus where they could realistically land on draft weekend and the kind of impact they might have at the next level.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
And now Move the Sticks with Daniel Jeremiah and Bucky Brooks.
What's up everyone?
Speaker 2 (00:08):
I am Bucky Brooks and this is Moved the Sticks
and I'm joined by my guy Lance Zeroline, the man
who does everything for the website as related to providing
all the profiles, breaking it all down. How many profiles
do we knock out this year?
Speaker 1 (00:21):
We only got to like four forty five? My editor
said he did. He said, don't write guys that can't
get drafted. I don't want to have to edit them.
I said, I don't want to have to write them,
so bet, and we're on the same page.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
I mean, you gotta love that. I appreciate all the
work because that is man laborious. When it comes to
like forging and something profiles, that's you know what I'm.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Gonna tell you. The sneaky tough part is I'm watching
tape and uh late October for some of these prospects,
and then early November, and there's two things that are
really tough. I'm gonna start with the easiest one, where
you think you have a player based on tape, you
know his speed or this or that or length or whatever,
and then you get the measurements or you get that.
(01:11):
Now we're half to wait til Pro Day for some
of these guys to run. Xavier's Restrepbo ran a four
eight forty. I gotta go back and change part of
my my scotter report to reference his speed, Like you
have to put that in there, And truth be told, Bucky,
I don't. He probably doesn't get drafted with a four
eight forty. That's not say he can't make a team,
but it's real hard for teams to, you know, get
(01:31):
on board with drafting a shorter slot receiver with a
four eight forties all he has to his name. And
so going back and you know, re relooking at and
retouching up some of the some of the scouting reports,
some of the strengths and weaknesses I wrote up after
Pro Day's one thing. But I'll tell you what else
(01:53):
is tough. I wrote Josh Simmons and he was out
for the year. So I wrote him in late thirty
late November, early December, and I run him up. Man,
this guy is athletic. I like him. I'm gonna give
him a sixty two that means kind of an average
starter grade, kind of a two basically. And then you
finish up the whole class. By the time I'm done
(02:16):
with the whole class, and you go back and watch
Josh Shimmons and you get your bearings under you about
what it all looks like, and you read, you know,
you get recentered. I went and watch him the other day.
I'm like, man, this guy is easily a high sixty four.
Like he's easily the most he's the most talented tackle
in the draft, easily the most talented tackle. But it's
(02:37):
different when you watch a guy, you know, in November
before you've really got a good feel of the whole class.
And remember, I'm hitting start again basically in October November,
I'm not. I don't really look in June or July
like I used to because I just found that it
kind of was a waste of time. I get an idea,
but I don't want to. I don't want to cloud
(02:58):
my process with bias. You know, just looking back at
some of these guys that like Josh Simmons, that guy
should be a top six pick realistically, but he's not
gonna be. You know, Walter Nolan's got some maturity issues.
That guy's a top ten pick realistically.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
You took me to where I want to go. It's
time for the winning combination, brought to you by Low's
and Lance. Like, I kind of wanted to have that
conversation because what I like to do to kind of
keep myself honest is like I read a lot of
the stuff that is on the internet, and someone that
recently posted kind of like a composite of like they
talked to a bunch of different scouts and coaches about
(03:37):
the guys and the names that you know, they made
a top one hundred and so I always kind of
like to look at my list compared to somebody else's
list to see if I had did I have any
egregious errors? Am I missing somebody? And on this list
they had Walter Nolan at six And at the end
of last week I brought walteron Nolan up on path
to the draft because I kind of dug into his
(03:59):
background and excuse me for not knowing this, but he
was the number one recruit in the class when he
came out, like the same class as Travis Hunter. Walter
Nolan was number one. So then I was like, well,
wait a minute, Like I saw the talent. I looked
at my notes. I liked what I wrote, I had
him in my like top fifteen. But I'm looking. I'm like,
(04:23):
let me go back and look at Texas A and M.
And you're like, oh, whoa, Walter Dolan kind of got
that that get down. And then you go and you
look at him play at Ole Miss and you see
first step quickness, hand you said, you see the penetration.
You see him flash dominance where he has some takeover
the game ability. And unfortunately, I would say for us
(04:44):
in the TV world, man, sometimes we get roped into
having the same conversations about the same guys, and we
neglect guys that should have more conversation. And my goal
this week on Path was, hey, man, we need to
have this conversation about Walter Nolan being a legitimate guy
where everyone is kind of pencils in. Mason Graham is like, oh,
(05:05):
Jackson Milla six, Jackson Milla five, Mason Graham firsty tackle boom.
Walterton Nolan's gonna go a lot higher than people think.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
Here's the thing I've got him regardless of you know,
there's like people I talk to at A and M
said high high maintenance, got some high maintenance stuff to him,
and look I've been told he is gonna fall. Realistically,
he's ahead of Coaston Loveland. I've got him fifth in
this class. You just turn on the tape and watch tape.
(05:35):
You can't go in any other direction other than Walter
Nolan is a top defensive tackle on the draft, you
really can't. I like Mason Graham. He plays hard, but
I think that he's, you know, kind of a standard
hard playing defensive tackle that some shorter arms can't really
long limb his way around guys. As a rusher, Walter
Nolan is explosive on all three downs. Walter Nolan is
a guy that can disrupt on first, second, or third down.
(05:58):
He's you know, he's long, he's quick, he's he's he's
very physical and aggressive. If we just work off the tape,
You're right, he does deserve a lot more conversation. I
don't think I think some of the I think some
of it is driven by the fact that he may
not be a top you know, a top ten, top
fifteen pick, even though his play warrants it. But we
(06:19):
had this conversation with Jalen Carter. You know, Jalen Carter,
we had plenty of conversation about Jalen Carter and he
ended up going tenth. Like Walter Nolan, You're right, we haven't.
I mean, truth be told Walter Nolan, James Pierce, James
Pearce yep, and uh, you know Will Johnson because he
didn't he never ran, so there's gonna be a question
(06:40):
about his speed. And I'm missing I'm missing one more,
but there's Josh Simmons. Man, these guys right here you
could be looking at you know, I don't know what's
gonna happen Will Johnson, but the other three there's maturity issues,
some character concerns, whatever the case may be. I mean, realistically,
those are top I mean we're talking about tops six, eight, twelve.
(07:02):
And so I ask you this, Bucky, let me flip
it on you. When as a team do you say,
are you comfortable enough with my room is strong enough?
Even if this guy's mature or whatever. Like everyone has
a different standard or a different breaking point. But I'm
really curious when somebody says, man, I'm I'm drafting the
(07:22):
talent and we will, we will work on getting a
good mentor with this guy. We're going to get a
plan for him. Because those three guys, I just mentioned
and Will Johnson is a speed thing, so that that's
a little different. That's real, real first round, high end
talent that may slip to the you know, the back
half of the first round, which is crazy to me.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
Okay, So here's the thing, and here's the challenge on
our side, right, So a lot of times we're tasked
with lisk and I just realized that I got to
do a mock draft today, so I flow through that
pretty quickly and get that done. So but lance is
one of the things that I'm always pretty resolute that
I want to be able to look back at my
list in three or four years and be able to
(08:05):
own whatever I put out there in terms of top fives,
how I got them ranked or whatever, and ignore because
it's easy on our side to get caught up in well,
I want the list to reflect what the draft looks
like in terms of win guys come off the board.
But that's not the way that it should be done.
That all of this should be done is in three years,
(08:27):
how do we expect this guy to impact the league?
Because that's the line of demarcation when we're great thing,
the guy is our expansion expectation for how the player
is going to play by the end of his third
season in the league. And those guys that you believe
are going to be stars lack of Jalen Carter. We
always sit here and talk about, Man, Jalen Carter should
be the first player in the draft. All the other
(08:48):
stuff clouded us. And so what has happened for Jalen
Carter since he's shown up at Philadelphia. He looks like
the best defensive tackle in ball and that's what the
grades should have been. It's not really our job to
deem people for the character stuff, right team's job. My
job was talking about, well, look, he may fall because
(09:08):
of his character, but this is the player. The player
is this and everyone has a different level of tolerance
for character issues and those things. But as you talked
about the guys that you name, Nolan, Pierce, Simmons, Johnson,
all the excellent players, all the worthy of being top
(09:29):
twelve players based on what they put on tape. Now,
the other stuff someone else can unpack that. But the
talent is certainly there. And I feel like for some
of the guys, man, look, James Pears has become almost
like a bad word on TV, even though on our
side we don't have anything to document why he's falling.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Right, Yeah, And I you know, I keep my grades
separate from the character stuff. Now I will change round
projections because that's supposed to be where I think you'll
go based on league intel. But I mean, i've got
James Pearce, a is a sixty four, which is a
true first round player. I've got Josh Shit, you know, Simmons.
(10:09):
I was just kind of late. Like I said, I
wrote him too early. Frankly, his grade should be higher,
but I'm not going to change it. But I got
him at a borderline first. But I mean, frankly it should.
You know, my grade should probably be a six four eight,
which would put him in the neighborhood maybe even higher.
A sixty five, which is a boombus number because of
you know, some character or whatever. But I've got Walter
(10:30):
Nolan up there, I've got James pears like I don't
mess with I typically don't mess with that stuff because,
like you said, I've got to just watch the tape
and put the information that's out there on the tape
because I know everyone's going to be reading it. And
what do you say? I got to say strengths and weaknesses.
I mean, I can put something about character concern and
maybe my grade, maybe it could be altered a little bit,
(10:51):
but typically I don't like whatever I see on tape
is what I see on tape. And you're right, TV mainstream,
big TV shows, it's a lot of Shador Sanders talk.
But the reality is Shoudre Sanders is probably not one
of the you know, I don't know if any of
the quarterbacks are a top ten player in this draft,
but guys, we're talking about our guys who are top
(11:13):
ten talents in this draft though, and they're not talked
about much.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
And that's the thing that is irritating. The other thing
that has been irritating about the process. And this isn't
supposed to be like a thing where we're airing out grievances.
But let's be real. Like we've talked about Camboard and
the way that we've talked about him, the way we've
put him up there, he's gonna go number one. But
I think everyone should understand cam Ward is not the
best player in this draft. Like whether you talk about
(11:37):
Travis Son, Abdua Card or whatever, Ashton Gitty, whatever, but
like they are multiple guys that are better players, better
prospects than cam Ward. He may be the first quarterback
to go and we're going to celebrate him and give
him his flowers as that. But when we're grading the
player for the player, there are other players that are
look at the front of the line when it comes
(11:58):
to cam Ward. And let's also talk about this because
of the Shudur Sanders thing or whatever. And even though
I had him rank like him and cam Ward, to me,
I get the same grade. I just have a preference
for Chadur over cam Ward. But let me be honest
about my grade when it comes to Schaduur in camp
both of them, I gave bottom of the first round
grades And the reason why bottom of the first round
(12:18):
because it's hard to talk about like on TV life
bottom of the first round. That means you don't like him. No,
it means what I'm saying is solid starter. That's what
it means. It doesn't mean that I believe that he
is going to be an All Pro, superstar, Hall of
Famer or whatever. It's a solid starter grade. And you're
a conversation with Ballard or Ryan Poles or anybody in
(12:39):
the league would tell you, look, man, your great is
to reflect how you expect them to play, and if
we're being true to the process. Look, if you told
me that Shadur Sanders were drafted twenty six by the Rams,
I was like, that's actually perfect because that's where he
would be graded at. In most years, he's graded bottom
of the first round. The Rams are picking there he
would go. If he was twenty one to the Pittsburgh Steelers,
(13:03):
That's perfect because I would say the great reflects where
he goes. Where teams mess up when they draft people
much higher than the value or the talent that the
player brings out. And I know on TV we mess
up and we cloud the minds of fans by saying, oh,
people get pushed up. No, they shouldn't get pushed up.
(13:24):
If a player is not a blue chip player, you
cannot take him in a blue chip position because it
throws off everything when you get down the line and
you start talking about expectations and those things. If you
take an average player in a blue chip spot in
three years, you're like, man, we mean we took him
third overall. He's not giving us because he never was
(13:44):
that player.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
Never was that. Yeah, I took a lot of bullets
in my starting a round in the second Monk. I mean,
I've watched all these guys and I'm like, man, NFL team,
I'm just gonna go with what I see because I
trust what I see. And I put Shador once. I
had him falling in the mock past a couple spots,
and at that time Raiders were a potential and Jets.
But I you know, the second Monck is before free agency,
(14:07):
and so I was like, man, if these teams tighten
it up with free agent quarterbacks, he's gonna fall because
the great the tape doesn't say you draft him this high.
And so I had him slide down. I had the
Browns jump up and grab him at twenty nine. Woh woh.
The Internet was not happy with me for doing that,
(14:27):
but I just had to be real because that happens
a lot. Sometimes guys get drafted earlier. The next one,
I put him at twenty four. This last one, I'm
probably putting them at twenty one with the Steelers, and
I think it's because you know, you have to find
you're right. There's a long history of passing, Like can
you imagine passing on Abdull Carter and someone are going
(14:49):
to argue the Titans are doing this. You know, you
could make this argument. You're passing on Abdul Carter, You're
passing on Travis Hunter, Yeah, Cambell, you know, or Shador
or any other court Jackson Dart, any other quarterback. And
I think with the NFL, Brian Billick, I've said this
story before. He's made the comment before. When I was
in the room and he was talking, he said, as
(15:11):
soon as you draft the first round quarterback, the hour
glasses turned over on your job, and if you don't
develop that quarterback, you and your general manager get fired.
Usually the head coach for sure, will get fired. Sometimes
at GM. And he said, you know, Kyle Bohler got
in you knowing nothing against Kyle Bowler, but he said,
we drafted Colin the first. And his whole point was,
(15:31):
you know, if you're comfortable taking a player with the
nineteenth pick, you should be comfortable take a quarterback. That is,
you should be comfortable taking them with the fifth pick,
because either way, you're gonna get fired if you don't
develop them. And I thought that was interesting. However, I
would also say, now, wait a minute, who are the
guys were passing on in the draft. If we were
(15:53):
to take a guy number five. So I just think
that this draft, very very rarely have I had quarterbacks.
Trevor Lawrence would be the one time, and you know,
and he's been I think, kind of average so far.
Very rarely have I had quarterbacks as the very best
player in the draft to be hot Garrett Tekwon Barkley.
But it's rare to have quarterbacks who are actually on
(16:16):
film the best players.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
It is rare. And we talk about the value of
the position, and that is the other thing when it
comes to it. Lance we talked about first round quarterbacks
versus not. We did all the research and what was
crazy to me, like since twenty fifteen, over the last decade,
we talked about Pro bowlers. Nineteen Pro Bowl quarterbacks were
(16:39):
first round picks from twenty fifteen to whatever. Nineteen Pro
Bowls are taken in the first round in rounds two
through seven. Four quarterbacks pick two through seven have only
made four Pro Bowls. Second round pick was Jalen Millroe.
Seventh round I think was Brock pretty Garnermentshew, No, not
(17:01):
Jaylen Melville, Jaylen Hurts, yeah, Jalen Hurts, sorry, Yeah. Garna
Minshew was a Pro Bowl, he counts in that. Brock
Perty would count that. But that's what we're talking about.
So when we start to have these conversations and we
always get to it right Like on TV, we talked about, like,
hey man, who's the second round guy that you can
get nobody like because the odds suggests that it's not
(17:22):
going to happen if they're not graded as a first
round talent. The odd suggested they're not going to be
a player that really makes a dent in the league.
And this year reminds me of the twenty the Kenny
Pickett year where we talked about these guys Kenny Pickett,
Desmond Rhader, Malik Willison, whoever else was in that class.
Oh man, somebody's going, oh, somebody's going no crowd. No, yeah,
(17:46):
Matt Crown was the one. And so I say this
to you to remind me, hey man, grade the player
for the player and live with the grade. It is
un likely that if there's someone that doesn't pop for
us when we're looking at quarterback, it's unlikely they're gonna
pop in the league like that.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
So, Bucky, I had done this a ten year study,
and you're talking a lot about kind of a lot
of the stuff that I did. So here's the number.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
Buck.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
You either think they're a starter, and if they're a starter,
you're really risk your job you put them in a
first That's what it is. Over the last ten our
last ten drafts, thirty five first round quarterbacks, fourteen third rounders,
six second rounders, and the second rounders. As you mentioned
Jalen Hurts, but you got Christian Hackenberg, Kyle Trask in
(18:35):
the second round. Will Levis like, it's it's a dead zone. Now,
there was a time in the what was it the
fourteen draft. I think it was where you had Jimmy Garoppolo,
you had Derek Carr. That was a little different time.
But now when you look at it, it's really teams
are saying, look, if we think a quarterback is a
(18:56):
first and this is why Jackson Dark, Tyler Shuck uh
Shador Sanders, this could swing either way for him. But
what you're not gonna what you rarely see as many
second round picks. Only six players in the last ten
drafts have been picked in the second round as a quarterback.
And the reason simple, if we think you're a quarterback,
we're pushing you into the first that's we're gonna get
the extra year on you because it's too expensive a quarterback,
(19:18):
especially now, we're gonna get the extra year, we'll get
the franchise year, we got the developmental time. And if
we don't think you're for if we don't think you're
a starting quarterback, why are we gonna take you in
a second when there are much better cornerbacks you're this
is a picked over Your position group's already picked over.
I got real cornerbacks. I got real linebackers who are
(19:38):
gonna start this year and could and his history tells
us could make Pro Bowls. Why am I gonna put
You're gonna go to the third round. So it's almost
like you're either in the first or you're in the third. Historically,
this year could break the moll because I think Milree
goes in a second. I think Tyler Shuck probably goes
in a second.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
I think there's a lot of conversation. There's a lot
of conversation on h Like I said, Bruce Feldman talked
about don't expect to see Tyler shop going to the
top forty. You had Tom Tayler Server put a reporter
out saying NFL coaches and scouts have told him they
believe Jalen Murlroe is a better running quarterback than Lamar
Jackson was in college, which I was like, hold on,
(20:16):
like you probably won't check check the facts, oh jack
Lamar Jackson had four thousand rushing yards in three years.
He had back to back rushing seasons with fifteen one
hundred yards. He scored fifty rushing touchdowns. I love Jalen Murro.
I love his superpowers. Jaalen Murran get close to doing
what Lamar Jackson did as a collegiate player. So it's
(20:38):
compair to even make that comparison.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
Yeah, it's not even doesn't make sense because you're telling
me a running quarterback, Well, you have to be able
to throw something. Jalen frankly cannot throw like Lamar Jackson
did in college. Jalen's decision making his accuracy. It's not
good passing tape. Honestly, Jalen Milroe's tape is not very
good this year as a pastor. That's why some of
the late him. I mean, he's an incredible athlete, don't
(21:02):
get me wrong, but I think a lot of the
Lamar Jackson Jalen hurts He's not Jalen Hurts either. Jalen
was a better thrower of the football coming out. Jalen
was just a little tardy from a timing standpoint. But
he can spin it. He's got an arm, he's got
a really tight spiral. He's got rare leadership stuff to him.
He's got you know, Jalen Hurts is a guy that
(21:23):
I really learned from because I just didn't think that
guy could be a full time starting quarterback and be
a good one. But when you have, you know, and
I do think the Eagles have done a nice job
of putting him in position to succeed, like they're asking
him to do things he does well, which is the
key for all quarterbacks really when you get right down
to it, don't ask a quarterback to do something he
doesn't do well, but maximize his strengths. And so if
(21:46):
you draft Jalen Milroe knowing that you know it's gonna
be somebody has to really have a plan for him.
And you know, I do wonder Bucky. In this day
and age, people get a little sensitive. You and I
know each other, so I you know, we can talk
about whatever. You know, some quarterback, you know some teams
are having a conversation. I talked to teams who already
aren't having a conversation about Hey, if it doesn't work
at quarterback, we.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Put him a running back.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
We're gonna make the shift. We'll make the switch. Now. Look,
listen to a lot of those guys who I don't
know the last time that was successful where you came
in starting as a quarterback.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
Well, I would say that it reminds me a lot
of our colleague Michael Robinson when Mike Robb was coming
out of Penn State. And this is a long time Mike,
Mike rob made a man. He made a transition that
you never would think you go, You go from quarterback
to being a slobbery knocker at fullback. That is crazy.
But that speaks to the type of athleticism that he had.
But like, you can't tell me that Jalen Milroe couldn't
(22:41):
be an offensive weapon if it didn't work out. He
couldn't be someone that you line up in the dot
and do that. He would have to learn how to
do pass protection whatever. But I mean he's four three nine,
he's two hundred and twenty five pounds, four three nine.
You see the body is ripped up like yeah, but
you give him every opportunity to make it as a quarterback.
I mean, no different than Taysom Hill, you know what
(23:02):
I'm saying, Like he's a much better player than taste,
but similarity, do you try and find ways to put
those athletes on the field. And sorry to lead the
listeners on this this dialogue and this dissertation on quarterback play,
but it's funny how the conversation and how we spend
so much of our time talking about it on TV
that it prevents us from talking about some of the
(23:23):
other guys. I'm glad you brought up Josh Simmons because
that was a conversation that I wanted to have. But also,
what's your take on Will Campbell Because there's a lot
of like he kind of bores people in terms of like,
oh the arm length and he's not this and not that.
But I don't know. I saw him at LSU start
right away, have a lot of success in what we
all view as the toughest conference in football. I guess
(23:45):
a lot of big time past rushers. What's your take
on what would you dassy about?
Speaker 1 (23:49):
Well, so, my dad as a as a former NFL
on line coach. He always said anyone who says arm
length isn't important doesn't coach on line, because that's it
is important because if you don't have it, you have
to be really you have a small margin for error
when it comes to pass pro and really beyond pass pro,
(24:11):
just run blocking anything. Because offensive line play is about
first in right, you want to be first in usually
typically that is with hands, and so if you are
going to be a shorter arm tackle, and to be sure,
shorter arm tackles are considered anything under thirty four inches.
Will Campbell's under thirty three inches. That's like Jonah Williams
when he came out. I like Joonah Williams, but Joonah
(24:35):
Williams has not been as big a factor as I
was expecting him to be coming out. They tried to
playhim a tackle and it's you know, it's been pretty
average over there. I think Will Campbell has really heavy hands.
I think that right now. There are some inconsistencies with
his timing of his hands, so the link does come
into play from time to time. I just think he
(24:56):
gets sloppy with the footwork sometimes, and I do think
that's correct. But when the bullets are flying. All the
work you did in practice, like it's got to you
got to turn it into muscle memory. But what he's
really special at is he has incredible recovery. Even when
he gets beaten, he recovers and gets people blocked. And
that that is a skill, that's a talent, that's an
athletic ability that you have to acknowledge for being a
(25:19):
guy that stands kind of straight up. And I ask
his trainer, Duke Mannyweather, about us, So what does he
say about playing? You know, he plays so high up
and he said, well, he said, when he comes out
of his stance, he kind of pops up anyway. So
why not start there? So he you know, there's no delay.
He starts there and then he takes off. Because he's
actually a good run blocker. Even though you know he's
not a he can bend. He just doesn't look like
(25:41):
he's a bender. But when you see him play, you
see the bending, you see the athleticism. I think he's
a tough ass guy. I think he's somebody will hit
you in the mouth. I think he is a mentality player.
And I think he's a patriot. You really want to
know that, I sink. Mike Rabel's gonna say, Man, that's
a Patriot. I'm gonna get Patriots in here, and we're
gonna start with this guy. We don't have a left
tackle and we need more Patriots. And I think that's
(26:04):
I think it's that simple. I like Will Campbell. I
think there's some holes in his game. I think there's
some holes in Kelvin Banks's game. This is not a
real clean tackle draft, to be honest with you, not
at the top.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
Glad you brought up Kevin Banks, because Kevin Banks is
a guy that I feel like people haven't talked enough about.
He's kind of kind of flown, not under the radar
on the process. But man, this conversation about him being
a top ten pick, that your buddy Ryan Poles could
take a look at him, maybe at ten for the
Bears if they just need another body, if you want
to kind of continue to fortify the offensive line. He's interesting,
(26:35):
But I want to go to another guy. They talked
about Tyler.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
Book putt Ryan Poles on me. I'm not like that
with Ryan Poles anymore.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
He's a GM now, he's a big time I'm sorry.
I'm sorry. Okay, Like your former friend.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
The artist report Buck. I just write reports. I'm just
trying to write reports. That's all I'm trying to do.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
So Tyler Booker like this, I think I think he
did good.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
I think I think he couldn't be a good bear, though,
I think he could be a good bear. You're right,
because they.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
Kevin Banks. Yeah, Now what do you think about? What
do you think about Tyler Booker? Like people are making
out like the one thing that I love and appreciate
about him, he strikes me as the bodyguard. He's the
bully on the block. He's going to do it. It
may not always be pretty whatever, but he is going
to give you the attitude. He's going to move people.
But there's always in his game, Like people would tell
(27:27):
me that, hey he's a gap scheme only player. You
don't want to see his big, lumbering self in his
own scheme. But what did you take? You know a
lot of group.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
I went and watched him, So I watched him for
the Joe More Awards too, which is the top offensive
line in college football. So I've spent a lot of
time on a lot of these guys. I think he
nailed it. Everything you said is accurate. It's exactly how
I see it. And and he's not, you know, the
best athlete. He didn't test very well from an athletic standpoint.
(27:58):
But when I watch him on tape, and I went
and specifically search for lead pools and outside zone blocks
because that's going to be on the move. I want
to see him on the move. He's okay, he can do.
He can get some lead polls. Now you don't want
to weigh way out in space, but he can. He
can pull a little bit. He can come from opposite
the opposite guard spot and come around the corner for
you if you need. It's a little better coming from
(28:19):
playside guard to pull over the outside of the tackle.
But I think what you said is important. He is
a grimy, tough guy who you want to add. The
teams who are most excited about adding him they want
somebody who is a bully in their building. They want
(28:40):
a leader, and they want a guy that's going to
take charge in the offensive line, and they want somebody
who's gonna get chippy if you mess with the quarterback.
You know, he's not the player that Quenton Nelson is
from in terms of the entire package, But He's got
that same type of mentality that Q Nelson had coming
out of Notre Dame, which is kind of a rare mentality,
and books that.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
Now.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
I think there's some limitations in most drafts. I think
he's a second round pick in this draft. My own
hometown team to Houston Texans. Man, they need somebody in
the locker room that can they can they can get
rally the troops and turn it into you know, turn
it into a bodyguard squad for the quarterback c J.
Stroud And and he strikes me as someone that Demico
(29:23):
Ryans would love. Demico talks about swarm and I can't
remember what it stands for, but it's a mentality, it's
a work ethic. And I think Booker, to me, he
won't fall past twenty five. I couldn't see that mentality
falling past a team that wants a mentality in their
locker room. Now, he could go as early as twelve
to Dallas to replace Zach Martin, but he's you know,
(29:46):
I think Donovan Jackson from Ohio State is more talented.
He's a better athlete. But Booker, people who like Booker
are going to like him for everything you talked about
at the beginning.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
Of what you said, Yeah, the bully. Yeah, it's funny
you talk about Donovan Jackson because to me, he is
really solid, he's really kind of clean. When you look
at him, there's a lot of things really really well.
I can't say that he's exceptional in any area, but
we've seen those guys play ten twelve years Lance in
the league, like just solid Kevin Zeitler types that just
(30:16):
play and play and play and just have a lot
of success. Let's talk to a break very quick, and
then we'll come back and we'll talk some more offense,
but really we'll start moving to the defense. All right, Lance,
So I want to clean up the offense, though. I
want to ask you a couple of questions. Who is
the wide receiver that we've slept on throughout this process
(30:39):
in terms of a guy that we just haven't talked
enough about. I feel like the conversation has been about
really three guys. Ted McMillan has been on, Matthew Golden,
and then the conversation about of late A Mecca Abuka.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
Yeah. Yeah, I thinka goes into first. I think Luther
Burden is one hundred, that guy from the very outset.
I couldn't get people on board with me on the
LU on the Luther Burden train this guy. So you
have to go and specifically target his intermediate and deep throws.
(31:15):
There's a lot in that offense, a lot of quick
game built in. Let's just get the ball in his hands.
Throw slants, throw wide receiver, you know, screens, throw hitches.
And when people talk about his productivity, I hear people say, well,
his productivity this year. Did you watch Tate? Did you
see his quarterback? You ain't going to be quarterback. Brady
(31:36):
Cook had a good year, a pretty good year last
year on tape, I thought he was like a fourth
round type, third or fourth round type player. This year
looks undraftable, and he's big, he's got a good arm.
There's a lot of traits. He was really bad this year.
So how are you going to put production on Luther
Burden when he's asked to catch a lot of short
stuff and his quarterback just had a really rough year.
(31:59):
For me, he he's got good play speed. He plays
faster maybe than the time speed. When the ball is
in the air. He is a terrific ball winner. He
is really competitive. It reminded me of Garrett Wilson when
I watched him. I think Luther Burden in my personal grades,
is my top wide receiver in this draft. I've got
him over Milling Golden and Egbuka. I think people are
(32:20):
sleeping on them way too much. And I don't know
if there's something else to play here, but Luther Burden
if he gets to I don't even think he needs
the right spot. I think Luther's just going to show
out as a pro. He's going to get out of
that Missouri offense and where he had some limitations, and
I think you're going to see a different wide receiver.
I think people need to remember what they thought of
(32:41):
him before the year started.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
You know, it's funny, man, because when I look at him,
I just love everything about his game. He's a catching
around specialist. He's tough, he's physical. I've made the comparison
to Deebo Samuel just in terms of like what he
does with the ball in his hands, and he's underrated
in that regard. Let's talk about some other guys. You
got the Iowa State guys, uh, the Jays as I
(33:03):
call them. You got the big guy. I think it's Higgins,
and then you have Yoel, who's like the shorter, quicker,
move around guy. You also have some other guys. I
just feel like like we have an empty the clip
in terms of like wide receivers that can play, guys
that we like other guys, because it seems like there's
so many guys. Jadi Broyles from Utah State is one.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
Yeah, you weren't. You weren't a senior bow where you go.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
I wasn't a scene. I was the East West, Okay.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
So Jalen Royals look like. I love Jalen Royals. My
grade on him is I got a second round grade
on him. I think he goes in the third is
my guess, but some people think fourth. I'm just telling you.
He's got great size, he's physical from the slot. He
catches everything, great hands. I think he's one of the
safest wide receivers in this draft. You're not gonna line
(33:48):
him up outside and stretch the field, but he could
end up being a high volume target. He deserves more
conversation than he gets. I think Trey Harris, you know,
I came into last year. I watched Trey Harris last year.
I thought he was coming out and I was like
four to fifth. I watched him this year and I
thought he was a second. I think he goes into third.
He didn't run as fast. He's in the low four fives.
(34:11):
But man on tape, he can win deep. And then
when you throw on the ball underneath, so they do
a lot of and you know, all miss kind of
simplifies sometimes, so you got a lot of vertical it's
kind of that you're on that linear plane. So you
got verticals, and then you got stop routes, and then
you got hitch routes. And they don't ask him to
do a lot of you know, sink and break and
(34:32):
run more complicated routes. You want to give him the
ball on a three yard hitch. He is going to
be a bull in a china shop after the catch.
Like he is a really physical runner after the catch.
He does have that ability to get down the field
and create explosive plays. I don't care that he doesn't
run a five. I don't care that he doesn't run
a four to four because unless you have safety hop
(34:54):
it's going to be him versus the other guy, and
he's a bully when the ball is in the air.
So I think Trey Harris should have a little bit
more conversation. I think he's going to be a good
wide receiver number two in the league. And then another
guy who you know, battled some injury last year and
came back or was it this year that he got injured?
Speaker 2 (35:13):
It was this year?
Speaker 1 (35:14):
Tory Horton from Colorado State. He's a good football Tory
is a good football player. And once again we get
so caught up and talking to the same names over
and over. But Tory Horton is a good football player
who I think could end up going in the third
round and in becoming a quick contributor in the NFL.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
Okay, So back to the Harris conversation. It's funny because
there was one conversation about Trey Harris before the combine
and then it was like he went to the ether,
like he just disappeared because he didn't run a four
to four time, even though on tape we see him
run by guys time and time again in that old
miss offense. And is one of the dangers of being
(35:55):
so caught up in the combine and the numbers, is
that guys that we liked on tape, we kind of
pushed him to the side in lieu of guys who
were the super athletes at the combine. Look Man Harris
was a guy that was a big play specialist. Like
think about a number of deep balls we saw Jackson
Dark throw to him, and all of them were not
(36:15):
schemed up a he's wide open. Because Lane Kiffin was
a master of the pen. He ran by some legitimate guys.
And one of the things that I learned from Mike
Holgerman and your caskal, they said, like, when you have
a big guy that is over six y two who
runs four or five to four or five five, that's
moving for a bigger guy, and that you want to
give them credit for being able to do that. So
(36:38):
it's just funny how forgotten he has become in this process.
When we talked about him, like leading up to the combat,
we talked about him potentially being a look a bottom
of the first round guy. That's what the conversation was.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
Yeah, and you know his ten yard split is a
one five six, which is pretty good. It shows you
how quick he can accelerate vertical leap of thirty eight
and a half and a broad a ten five. So
he's got some explosions. Yeah, yeah, I mean, so I
don't I don't really get it personally on him. I
do wonder sometime if there's a natural tendency in the
even in the league. He started off at LA Tech
(37:13):
and then he came, you know, he came and had
two years at old mess started off at LA Tech.
I do wonder sometime if there is a little bit
of a subconscious bias against guys who started smaller programs
and then portal to larger ones, and maybe that will
go away now that the portal is a mainstream.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
I wonder, yeah, like, there may be something to it,
because even the Matthew Golden conversation, there's that conversation. I
mean there there is that stigma. A little bit goes
from h Town to then being at UT, like and
then at UT you're trying to figure out what if
he's so good, why wasn't he featured? And then people say, well,
because you paid as the bond the money, so you
had to feature him. Maybe, but coaches are coaches. They
(37:52):
see everything every day. They didn't feature him like a
number one all the time, but it showed up on occasion. Uh,
anybody else on office? Oh running back, I gotta go
to this running back thing because hey, man, there's some
love on the street for Dylan Sampson from Tennessee.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
Good. I was hoping you were gonna say, Dylan Sampson,
you can't watch to Bucky had twenty two rushing touchdowns
in the SEC. Twenty two rushing touchdowns, and he gets
tough yards. He gets fifteen yard running touchdowns. He has
really really impressive instincts in short yardage, like he's only
two hundred pounds in that neighborhood, but when he gets
(38:30):
the ball in tight quarters, he's got that Emmett Smith quality.
You know how emmittt could find just the smallest crease
and work his way through. I think he has some
of that. I think when it's all said and done,
he is one of the Dylan Samson for me is
my let's see, I got an Ashton genty, then O'maron Hampton,
(38:52):
and then Dylan ham and then I got Dylan Sampson
three ahead of quin Shawn Judkins, ahead of Caleb Johns.
And who I think is I didn't love him on
tape as much as maybe some other people did. And no,
I think Dylan Samson is a good running back if
he were two hundred and ten pounds no one blinks,
and he goes in a second and no one says
(39:13):
a word. He's about two hundred pounds, and now all
of a sudden, you know, we got question marks about him.
I don't have any questions.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
It's funny because of my last top five, I put
cam Scatterboo over top of him, and some of it, yeah,
but some of it is like Lancelike sometimes you just
want to give guys visibility, and so I had given
Dylan Sampson some visibility. But look, I really loved camp
schtabul And at the same time, I really like what
(39:39):
Dylan Sampson brings to the table. When I watched him
at Tennessee, man, speed, quickness, balance, burst, all that stuff
he puts it in. And the fact that you talked about, man,
you just don't score twenty plus touchdowns in the sec
like you put the ball in the paint. People can
talk about that offense and how they spread it out
or whatever, but I saw him carve up some big
time defenses like scooting and scoring around the corner.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
Yeah. I got an argument with a personnel director about him,
and they were trying to send me videos of him
with big lanes to run through I'm like, yeah, we
can all do that. I can show you Caleb Johnson
if you want, Like, we can all go to a
play and screenshot. This isn't hard. But I watched that
joker on every carry and he is really like he's
a talented, instinctive runner. I think, the same thing you
(40:24):
know in Cam Scattabull. It's it's really interesting talking to
teams who are there's internal fights in buildings right now
about him because you have some you have one section
which will fight for him, and then you'll have other
scouts or coaches or whatever. Well, typically coaches are on
his side, to be honest with That's kind of what
(40:44):
I'm finding, and it's because they don't like there is
no preconceived notion he's a guy that looks like, you know,
a mini version of Mike Alstad or whatever. All I
know is when you watch him play, he's really hard
to tackle and he can catch the ball out of
the backfield. He scores a lot of touchdowns. He's rarely
stopped on first impact, rarely. He creates for himself with
(41:07):
tremendous power and the bursts average. The speed is gonna
be below average in terms of top end speed, but
when you're trying to the way I see him Bucket
is I want to have a number one back, a
good number one, And then scatter Boy is my closer.
We're gonna come. We're going to beat the hell out
of you with these two guys, And like, can you
(41:28):
imagine if Jim, you know, Hardball, got his hands on him.
I mean, he's gonna want to We're just gonna play
bully ball. He's gonna get a couple and all he's
gonna want to do is get downhill and break people off.
So you know, for me, Scatterball is that perfect second
back for a team that wants to play power running
down the downhill.
Speaker 2 (41:52):
This look quickly to defense. We talked about the defensive
tacles and those guys. Anybody else that we need to
touch on who haven't we haven't kind of put enough
light on. I've talked about before coming from Michigan State
and those guys. But someone who we have about is TJ. Sanders.
Did you like him from South Carolina?
Speaker 1 (42:10):
I did? I did, And you know, he's it's interesting.
I thought he's a little small on tape and then
I saw him at the combine. He's not the biggest guy,
but he's built really well. You know, sometimes you just
got to get eyeballs on somebody. It's hard to tell
on tape. You get eyeballs and you see guys who
have the body type and who don't. And he's got
the body type. Like I said, he's not the biggest guy,
(42:30):
but he's got a real NFL body type. And I
think I think he needs to be talked about. I
think Shamar Turner out of Texas A and M some
questions about the medicals on him. He had a leg injury,
so he hasn't been available for this process. His agent
says he's been medically cleared. You know, you got to
check in with teams to find out if they have
him on the border or not. Shamart Turner justin mattaweek eight.
(42:53):
That's the kind of player. Shamart Turner is the undersized
interior lineman who is really explosive and really really fierce.
He doesn't give you any quarter at all. Every snap
is you're in a fistfight. And his problem is buck
he has like five to fifteen yard penalties. He can't
stop himself.
Speaker 2 (43:10):
He's like a hockey gooon.
Speaker 1 (43:11):
If you mess with one of his teammates. He's running
over and cleaning you up. And it's not even like
can't you do it inside a play where they can't
catch you, like you can't do it after the tackle
and they're resetting the football like it's it's late late.
But he has a joy for football. Talking to people
at A and M. They love him. I mean, they
absolutely love him. And I thought the fifteen yard pill leasion,
(43:32):
I wanted to find out, is this a guy that
has anger issues? Is he out of control? Is he
an issue in practice in the locker room? Not at all.
They love Shamar Turner and they said he just goes
to war for his teammates. He just has to reel
it in a little bit. But Shamar Turner is somebody
who you need to talk about. Shamar Turner. And as
I mentioned, the other defensive tackle was as you said, TJ. Sanders,
(43:57):
those are two guys who can make plays on the here.
They're not just drain cloggers like they're guys who make plays.
And Jamary Caldwell from Oregon is another one of those guys,
kind of a sloppy body type and you think, eh,
but then when you will put the tape on him
and Vernon Broughton have these weird body types. Vernnon Broughton
from Texas. I think both of them get drafted in
the fourth. These jokers just make a ton of plays.
(44:19):
They're all over the place. But you know, I know
enough to know that NFL teams like guys that look
a certain way and have certain traits. But then once
you get past the third round, it's like, let's go
get the best for one we don't care who are
the best guys. Who are the best, most talented football
players we can get? And I think that's when Jamari
Caldwell and Vernon Broughton, two defensive tackles in this draft,
(44:41):
are gonna pop up. I like both of those guys.
They make a lot of plays.
Speaker 2 (44:47):
Let's go linebacker situation. Everyone is all we talked to
nausea about Jalen Walker, Joha Campbell. There's love for especially
the guy kid from UCLA Sweat Julia's love for him.
But Dennis Stetsman from Oklahoma and someone that kind of
called my I love the playmaking. He ran faster than
(45:08):
people anticipated at the combine. Uh when you look at
him and wrote his profile, anything to you about him.
What about him and Barrett Carter, Because I feel like
Barret Carter is just well, he got rocks in his
in his in his pants, and they have just dropped
him to the bottom of the ocean when it comes
to the draft. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:26):
So Barret Carter. I had a second round grade on
him last year when I wrote him up. Now lots changed.
I mean, I think he's going to go into fourth probably.
I think the one thing is I thought he was
a four to four low four five four four forty
guy and he came out at his pro day. I'm
gonna pull it up for you right now. And this
is what I think it really hurt him is he
(45:48):
was supposed to be one of the things that stood
out with him was going to be his uh, his speed,
and then he ran a hold on a second up
right here. He ran a four to sixty three. That's
not slow, It's fine. His ten yard split was one
five to nine. But when you think a guy's going
to run a four to five to two, and then
(46:10):
he has a thirty three inch vertical jump, which is
not the most explosive vertical jump. He weighed in at
two thirty two. I think that's one of the things
that hurts a little bit. I know on tape, I
like him on tape. I mean, you know, the testing
and that's all part of it. But on tape, I
think he's a pretty good player. I like Barrett Carter.
I think he's worthy of going on day two. From
(46:32):
the tape, I think because of his testing, he probably
goes on day three. Schwessinger has some of the best
instincts I've seen on tape the last several years. I mean,
it's like he's moving with the play. It's like he
knows where the play is. And he's not the biggest,
strongest guy, but because he's ahead of the blocking scheme,
(46:52):
he doesn't get touched up the way some linebackers do.
He's able to slip blocks because he's running the play
for you and he's running the track for the running.
So he went from he's a one one year starter
with like a billion tackles and I guess the word
and I'm sure you heard this was I heard from
somebody who knew people inside the UCLA program that said
he was just wrecking show Kelly's offense when he was
(47:14):
on Scout team defense, and for some reason, all the
players thought he should be, you know, he should be
a starter, and he didn't start until his last year,
and then he was a killer this year. Now he's
been a special team's ace the entire time of he
was are he's a former walk on, but he's got
good speed. He's an explosive. I think he's got like
a forty inch vertical. He's got explosiveness to him. The
(47:35):
one guy it's not a great it's it's considered a
down year for linebackers. The one guy that Danny Stutsman
is a good player. He ran well. Danny Stutsman's going
to be a starting linebacker in the league. I think
he goes in the third round. Another guy that deserves
more attention is Demetrius Knight from South Carolina. Kind of
a throwback in terms of body type, about two hundred
(47:55):
and forty eight pounds. He's big, he's physical, he can
run a little bit. He runs pretty well for being
his size. They say he is a phenomenal leader in
the locker room and on the field. A phenomenal leader,
very upbeat, a guy who brings good, positive, high energy
to the field and to the locker room. But he
also is gonna split your wig for you if you
(48:16):
try to get down hell on him. So you know
he's got that physicality between the tackles, and he's got
the demeanor that you want setting the tone on defense.
But once you get past Stutsman, Knight, Schwesssinger, Campbell Walker,
you start running into you start running into some ifs
and butts. I think from there and you better have
good special teams play. Even though I like Barry Carter too,
(48:39):
I give him a sixty two, which is a third,
But I just I don't think. I just I don't
think he goes in there. But Jeffrey Bossa from Oregon,
I think he'll be a solid player. Smell Munden has
had some foot injury issues. I think he'll be a
solid player. Uh, he gets it gets a little trickier
after that. So if you want linebackers, you probably need
to get him inside the first.
Speaker 2 (48:58):
Ninety picks, last position group to cover. Just be the DB's.
We'll lump them all together. We've talked about all the
usual suspects at corner. Everyone has. We talked at nausea
about jadefe Aaron, We talked about Will Johnson. Uh, we
got the injured guys Shavonne Ravel and those guys Benjamin Morrison,
(49:20):
Maxwell Harrison has gotten love, caught fire of late. Let's
move beyond that. Who are the other guys? The other
guys that we need to talk about? That may not
be first round guys, but when we get into that
run and the second and third one, we're gonna be
on the live show, Like, who are her names that
we need to talk about? We need to at least
flush out.
Speaker 1 (49:39):
Jacob Parish, Kansas state cornerback. Tremendous, short, area of quickness,
very very sticky. There's sometimes he reminds me of Gyr
Alexander when he was coming out. He is a really
sticky corner with sticky feet and is a natural fleet,
free flowing athlete. He's got that basketball athleticism. I like
Jacob Parrish a lot, and I think he ran like
(50:00):
really really well if I remember correctly too, so I
keep getting third on him. But I'm telling you, I
think he's I think he's definitely gonna outplay outplay that.
From a trade standpoint, he weighed in at the combine.
I'll give you his combine numbers here in a second.
But Jacob Parris is the guy that I'm gonna get
hyped on when we are on the broadcast. He ran
a four three five, he's got thirty seven and a
(50:23):
half ins vertical, a ten to nine broad He is
five foot ten, one ninety one. I mean, you know
the problem we have right now, Bucky, that you've probably
seen too. Is it used to be oh good, we'll
just throw him in a slot. Well, a lot of
teams now want bigger, They want those hybrids now in
the slot. So if this guy were five eleven and
a half six foot, we may be talking about him
(50:45):
in the first round. But it's strange because it's not
like he's one hundred and seventy five pounds. He's one
ninety one ninety one running in the four threes, and
he's five to ten. That's kind of average size. But
there are some teams that say, we just don't unless
you're an absolute doll, we're not going to play you
at slot because it's too valuable for us to have,
you know, a run defender in the slot. So I
(51:07):
don't know where he goes. I think he's a really
really good cornerback. He's somebody that I think is is
going to be a good NFL player. I also think
Jonah Sanker the safety out of Virginia. He is a
heat seeking missile downhill. He's he's got real NFL size,
six foot by two hundred and sixteen pounds, runs pretty well,
can run and hit you. He's got some instincts underneath.
(51:30):
But he's one of those guys that as soon as
the play gets started. You know how there's some guys
that are defensive players, and there's others who are running
into the fire. You know, they say, like firefighters, you
gotta have a different mentality when that cage door locks
in the UFC, right, we've got to have a different mentality.
Jonah Sanker is one of those guys that where's the
fire and he's flying in there trying to trying to
(51:51):
go hit and be hit. So I like that. I
like that, and it's funny because I'm finding the teams
like him too. He doesn't get a lot of talk
from the general public, but I think he's one of
those guys that every team secretly hopes, Yeah, that's our
guy in the third round. That's our guy in the
third round. Well we'll see which one of y'all win
the race.
Speaker 2 (52:08):
Yeah, it'd be so interesting to see what that looks like,
how that looks in terms of the guys who like
those type players, who want to put those players in
the back end. It's great that you brought up the
different the shift that we're seeing in the slot players
because so many colleges are playing with the quote unquote
star position, that hybrid nickel. You have a lot of
(52:29):
different options that if you want as a slot defender,
do you want a safety type, do you want a
corner type, and those things the other things that's shifting.
Kyli Gordon getting paid from the Chicago Bears moving that
up into the twenty million dollar category. The nickel position lance,
Now we're really looking for guys that have a specific
skill set for the slot. The nickel used to be
(52:52):
the throwaway. Ay, anybody that's little, we're gonna make them
a nickel. Anybody that's five eight, five nine, we're just
gonna put them and make them a nickel corner. We'll
put them on board and kind of that's where they go.
Now it's a legitimate position, and it's interesting because you
have to grade twelve positions on defense for starters, and
a nickel position is one of those.
Speaker 1 (53:11):
Yeah, it's why john Dy Barron. You know, some people
are gonna look at Johnny barn from Texas. They're gonna say, well,
where do we put him? Like we can't define his value.
Another I talk to another defensive coach who told.
Speaker 2 (53:22):
Me, oh, I love it.
Speaker 1 (53:24):
He's he's Brian branch all over again. I got a
nickel who can play out in the slot if I want.
And so when you look at a guy like Johnny Barron,
he's got the versatility to play over a pass catching
tight end in the slot. He can play true slot,
he can play the overhang nickel that star where he
can get after it as a run defender, and he
can step outside and play outside. So I think it's
(53:46):
his versatility that may have him as the first. Almost
Travis Hunter, I almost don't count him. He's like when
Tiger Woods used to talk about, well, who's gonna finish second, Well, Travis.
Speaker 2 (53:56):
Is going to be the best.
Speaker 1 (53:57):
He's my first receiver in the draft. He's my first
cornerback in the draft. So who's after him? I think
Bearing goes first because ahead of the other corners, because
he tested well. He had a great year this year,
a lot of ball production, but versatility you just referenced it. Man,
the ability to play in and that nickel role and outside,
to play inside and outside comfortably and successfully, that's kind
(54:22):
of rare. So I think that it has made grading
these guys a lot more difficult. Brian Branch really showed
you just go get a good football player, and a
defensive coordinator is going to figure out how to play.
He'll figure out how to play the safety, he'll figure
out how to play the corner. But you know, it
is it is tricky. They played Malachi Starks there this year.
(54:44):
Georgia did, but he got beat on a lot of routes.
Not bad, he just you know, he just wasn't like
he's playing n He's playing cover nickel basically. So when
I'm watching him in coverage stuff, he's going up against
some pretty good sec wide receivers. They want to dial
the tape back to twenty twenty three, and he's playing
more of a split safety role. He's a lot better.
(55:05):
I mean, he's coming downhill making plays, and so it
really it really makes it more challenging to look at
those players. But at the same time, for some NFL coaches,
they see, oh man, we love it. We love it
because now we can be varied in our defensive approaches
and our personnel groups, and you can't really out scheme us.
I mean, isn't that really what it gets down to,
Bucky right now is we don't want you to be
(55:27):
able to mismatch us. We want to mismatch you up front,
but which happens a lot with D line and O line.
We don't want you to mismatch us on the perimeter
with skill.
Speaker 2 (55:37):
Yeah, it's such a compelling thing. Last man, we made it.
Now we stressed it out an hour. We stressing out
an hour talking about all this stuff and look bad.
It's on me. Let me finish it because that was
a winning combination brought to you by Lows. We help
you save. But no, like we stressed out, and there's
so many things to talk about. I think we have
(55:59):
another podcast before we go to the draft. I don't know,
maybe Wednesday or something. We'll come back and kind of
talk about that. I know, we got the post stuff
I got you on one of the days, and then
we'll pull some other guys in.
Speaker 1 (56:10):
But we got the mock. We got Buckie. We got
Buckie Brooks's mock four point zero.
Speaker 2 (56:15):
I guess something. I'm sitting here working on that right
now as we go through it, because I'm a little
late to the party. But we will get it. We're
gonna get it done. But look, that's today's a podcast.
Moves to stakes me, Lancey. We'll be back later in
the week to discuss all things the draft as we
get ready for a huge event, maybe the biggest event
on the scouting Community's counting until next time, I'm Bucky.
(56:37):
That's lance We'll talk to you
And now Move the Sticks with Daniel Jeremiah and Bucky Brooks.
What's up everyone?
Speaker 2 (00:08):
I am Bucky Brooks and this is Moved the Sticks
and I'm joined by my guy Lance Zeroline, the man
who does everything for the website as related to providing
all the profiles, breaking it all down. How many profiles
do we knock out this year?
Speaker 1 (00:21):
We only got to like four forty five? My editor
said he did. He said, don't write guys that can't
get drafted. I don't want to have to edit them.
I said, I don't want to have to write them,
so bet, and we're on the same page.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
I mean, you gotta love that. I appreciate all the
work because that is man laborious. When it comes to
like forging and something profiles, that's you know what I'm.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Gonna tell you. The sneaky tough part is I'm watching
tape and uh late October for some of these prospects,
and then early November, and there's two things that are
really tough. I'm gonna start with the easiest one, where
you think you have a player based on tape, you
know his speed or this or that or length or whatever,
and then you get the measurements or you get that.
(01:11):
Now we're half to wait til Pro Day for some
of these guys to run. Xavier's Restrepbo ran a four
eight forty. I gotta go back and change part of
my my scotter report to reference his speed, Like you
have to put that in there, And truth be told, Bucky,
I don't. He probably doesn't get drafted with a four
eight forty. That's not say he can't make a team,
but it's real hard for teams to, you know, get
(01:31):
on board with drafting a shorter slot receiver with a
four eight forties all he has to his name. And
so going back and you know, re relooking at and
retouching up some of the some of the scouting reports,
some of the strengths and weaknesses I wrote up after
Pro Day's one thing. But I'll tell you what else
(01:53):
is tough. I wrote Josh Simmons and he was out
for the year. So I wrote him in late thirty
late November, early December, and I run him up. Man,
this guy is athletic. I like him. I'm gonna give
him a sixty two that means kind of an average
starter grade, kind of a two basically. And then you
finish up the whole class. By the time I'm done
(02:16):
with the whole class, and you go back and watch
Josh Shimmons and you get your bearings under you about
what it all looks like, and you read, you know,
you get recentered. I went and watch him the other day.
I'm like, man, this guy is easily a high sixty four.
Like he's easily the most he's the most talented tackle
in the draft, easily the most talented tackle. But it's
(02:37):
different when you watch a guy, you know, in November
before you've really got a good feel of the whole class.
And remember, I'm hitting start again basically in October November,
I'm not. I don't really look in June or July
like I used to because I just found that it
kind of was a waste of time. I get an idea,
but I don't want to. I don't want to cloud
(02:58):
my process with bias. You know, just looking back at
some of these guys that like Josh Simmons, that guy
should be a top six pick realistically, but he's not
gonna be. You know, Walter Nolan's got some maturity issues.
That guy's a top ten pick realistically.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
You took me to where I want to go. It's
time for the winning combination, brought to you by Low's
and Lance. Like, I kind of wanted to have that
conversation because what I like to do to kind of
keep myself honest is like I read a lot of
the stuff that is on the internet, and someone that
recently posted kind of like a composite of like they
talked to a bunch of different scouts and coaches about
(03:37):
the guys and the names that you know, they made
a top one hundred and so I always kind of
like to look at my list compared to somebody else's
list to see if I had did I have any
egregious errors? Am I missing somebody? And on this list
they had Walter Nolan at six And at the end
of last week I brought walteron Nolan up on path
to the draft because I kind of dug into his
(03:59):
background and excuse me for not knowing this, but he
was the number one recruit in the class when he
came out, like the same class as Travis Hunter. Walter
Nolan was number one. So then I was like, well,
wait a minute, Like I saw the talent. I looked
at my notes. I liked what I wrote, I had
him in my like top fifteen. But I'm looking. I'm like,
(04:23):
let me go back and look at Texas A and M.
And you're like, oh, whoa, Walter Dolan kind of got
that that get down. And then you go and you
look at him play at Ole Miss and you see
first step quickness, hand you said, you see the penetration.
You see him flash dominance where he has some takeover
the game ability. And unfortunately, I would say for us
(04:44):
in the TV world, man, sometimes we get roped into
having the same conversations about the same guys, and we
neglect guys that should have more conversation. And my goal
this week on Path was, hey, man, we need to
have this conversation about Walter Nolan being a legitimate guy
where everyone is kind of pencils in. Mason Graham is like, oh,
(05:05):
Jackson Milla six, Jackson Milla five, Mason Graham firsty tackle boom.
Walterton Nolan's gonna go a lot higher than people think.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
Here's the thing I've got him regardless of you know,
there's like people I talk to at A and M
said high high maintenance, got some high maintenance stuff to him,
and look I've been told he is gonna fall. Realistically,
he's ahead of Coaston Loveland. I've got him fifth in
this class. You just turn on the tape and watch tape.
(05:35):
You can't go in any other direction other than Walter
Nolan is a top defensive tackle on the draft, you
really can't. I like Mason Graham. He plays hard, but
I think that he's, you know, kind of a standard
hard playing defensive tackle that some shorter arms can't really
long limb his way around guys. As a rusher, Walter
Nolan is explosive on all three downs. Walter Nolan is
a guy that can disrupt on first, second, or third down.
(05:58):
He's you know, he's long, he's quick, he's he's he's
very physical and aggressive. If we just work off the tape,
You're right, he does deserve a lot more conversation. I
don't think I think some of the I think some
of it is driven by the fact that he may
not be a top you know, a top ten, top
fifteen pick, even though his play warrants it. But we
(06:19):
had this conversation with Jalen Carter. You know, Jalen Carter,
we had plenty of conversation about Jalen Carter and he
ended up going tenth. Like Walter Nolan, You're right, we haven't.
I mean, truth be told Walter Nolan, James Pierce, James
Pearce yep, and uh, you know Will Johnson because he
didn't he never ran, so there's gonna be a question
(06:40):
about his speed. And I'm missing I'm missing one more,
but there's Josh Simmons. Man, these guys right here you
could be looking at you know, I don't know what's
gonna happen Will Johnson, but the other three there's maturity issues,
some character concerns, whatever the case may be. I mean, realistically,
those are top I mean we're talking about tops six, eight, twelve.
(07:02):
And so I ask you this, Bucky, let me flip
it on you. When as a team do you say,
are you comfortable enough with my room is strong enough?
Even if this guy's mature or whatever. Like everyone has
a different standard or a different breaking point. But I'm
really curious when somebody says, man, I'm I'm drafting the
(07:22):
talent and we will, we will work on getting a
good mentor with this guy. We're going to get a
plan for him. Because those three guys, I just mentioned
and Will Johnson is a speed thing, so that that's
a little different. That's real, real first round, high end
talent that may slip to the you know, the back
half of the first round, which is crazy to me.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
Okay, So here's the thing, and here's the challenge on
our side, right, So a lot of times we're tasked
with lisk and I just realized that I got to
do a mock draft today, so I flow through that
pretty quickly and get that done. So but lance is
one of the things that I'm always pretty resolute that
I want to be able to look back at my
list in three or four years and be able to
(08:05):
own whatever I put out there in terms of top fives,
how I got them ranked or whatever, and ignore because
it's easy on our side to get caught up in well,
I want the list to reflect what the draft looks
like in terms of win guys come off the board.
But that's not the way that it should be done.
That all of this should be done is in three years,
(08:27):
how do we expect this guy to impact the league?
Because that's the line of demarcation when we're great thing,
the guy is our expansion expectation for how the player
is going to play by the end of his third
season in the league. And those guys that you believe
are going to be stars lack of Jalen Carter. We
always sit here and talk about, Man, Jalen Carter should
be the first player in the draft. All the other
(08:48):
stuff clouded us. And so what has happened for Jalen
Carter since he's shown up at Philadelphia. He looks like
the best defensive tackle in ball and that's what the
grades should have been. It's not really our job to
deem people for the character stuff, right team's job. My
job was talking about, well, look, he may fall because
(09:08):
of his character, but this is the player. The player
is this and everyone has a different level of tolerance
for character issues and those things. But as you talked
about the guys that you name, Nolan, Pierce, Simmons, Johnson,
all the excellent players, all the worthy of being top
(09:29):
twelve players based on what they put on tape. Now,
the other stuff someone else can unpack that. But the
talent is certainly there. And I feel like for some
of the guys, man, look, James Pears has become almost
like a bad word on TV, even though on our
side we don't have anything to document why he's falling.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Right, Yeah, And I you know, I keep my grades
separate from the character stuff. Now I will change round
projections because that's supposed to be where I think you'll
go based on league intel. But I mean, i've got
James Pearce, a is a sixty four, which is a
true first round player. I've got Josh Shit, you know, Simmons.
(10:09):
I was just kind of late. Like I said, I
wrote him too early. Frankly, his grade should be higher,
but I'm not going to change it. But I got
him at a borderline first. But I mean, frankly it should.
You know, my grade should probably be a six four eight,
which would put him in the neighborhood maybe even higher.
A sixty five, which is a boombus number because of
you know, some character or whatever. But I've got Walter
(10:30):
Nolan up there, I've got James pears like I don't
mess with I typically don't mess with that stuff because,
like you said, I've got to just watch the tape
and put the information that's out there on the tape
because I know everyone's going to be reading it. And
what do you say? I got to say strengths and weaknesses.
I mean, I can put something about character concern and
maybe my grade, maybe it could be altered a little bit,
(10:51):
but typically I don't like whatever I see on tape
is what I see on tape. And you're right, TV mainstream,
big TV shows, it's a lot of Shador Sanders talk.
But the reality is Shoudre Sanders is probably not one
of the you know, I don't know if any of
the quarterbacks are a top ten player in this draft,
but guys, we're talking about our guys who are top
(11:13):
ten talents in this draft though, and they're not talked
about much.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
And that's the thing that is irritating. The other thing
that has been irritating about the process. And this isn't
supposed to be like a thing where we're airing out grievances.
But let's be real. Like we've talked about Camboard and
the way that we've talked about him, the way we've
put him up there, he's gonna go number one. But
I think everyone should understand cam Ward is not the
best player in this draft. Like whether you talk about
(11:37):
Travis Son, Abdua Card or whatever, Ashton Gitty, whatever, but
like they are multiple guys that are better players, better
prospects than cam Ward. He may be the first quarterback
to go and we're going to celebrate him and give
him his flowers as that. But when we're grading the
player for the player, there are other players that are
look at the front of the line when it comes
(11:58):
to cam Ward. And let's also talk about this because
of the Shudur Sanders thing or whatever. And even though
I had him rank like him and cam Ward, to me,
I get the same grade. I just have a preference
for Chadur over cam Ward. But let me be honest
about my grade when it comes to Schaduur in camp
both of them, I gave bottom of the first round
grades And the reason why bottom of the first round
(12:18):
because it's hard to talk about like on TV life
bottom of the first round. That means you don't like him. No,
it means what I'm saying is solid starter. That's what
it means. It doesn't mean that I believe that he
is going to be an All Pro, superstar, Hall of
Famer or whatever. It's a solid starter grade. And you're
a conversation with Ballard or Ryan Poles or anybody in
(12:39):
the league would tell you, look, man, your great is
to reflect how you expect them to play, and if
we're being true to the process. Look, if you told
me that Shadur Sanders were drafted twenty six by the Rams,
I was like, that's actually perfect because that's where he
would be graded at. In most years, he's graded bottom
of the first round. The Rams are picking there he
would go. If he was twenty one to the Pittsburgh Steelers,
(13:03):
That's perfect because I would say the great reflects where
he goes. Where teams mess up when they draft people
much higher than the value or the talent that the
player brings out. And I know on TV we mess
up and we cloud the minds of fans by saying, oh,
people get pushed up. No, they shouldn't get pushed up.
(13:24):
If a player is not a blue chip player, you
cannot take him in a blue chip position because it
throws off everything when you get down the line and
you start talking about expectations and those things. If you
take an average player in a blue chip spot in
three years, you're like, man, we mean we took him
third overall. He's not giving us because he never was
(13:44):
that player.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
Never was that. Yeah, I took a lot of bullets
in my starting a round in the second Monk. I mean,
I've watched all these guys and I'm like, man, NFL team,
I'm just gonna go with what I see because I
trust what I see. And I put Shador once. I
had him falling in the mock past a couple spots,
and at that time Raiders were a potential and Jets.
But I you know, the second Monck is before free agency,
(14:07):
and so I was like, man, if these teams tighten
it up with free agent quarterbacks, he's gonna fall because
the great the tape doesn't say you draft him this high.
And so I had him slide down. I had the
Browns jump up and grab him at twenty nine. Woh woh.
The Internet was not happy with me for doing that,
(14:27):
but I just had to be real because that happens
a lot. Sometimes guys get drafted earlier. The next one,
I put him at twenty four. This last one, I'm
probably putting them at twenty one with the Steelers, and
I think it's because you know, you have to find
you're right. There's a long history of passing, Like can
you imagine passing on Abdull Carter and someone are going
(14:49):
to argue the Titans are doing this. You know, you
could make this argument. You're passing on Abdul Carter, You're
passing on Travis Hunter, Yeah, Cambell, you know, or Shador
or any other court Jackson Dart, any other quarterback. And
I think with the NFL, Brian Billick, I've said this
story before. He's made the comment before. When I was
in the room and he was talking, he said, as
(15:11):
soon as you draft the first round quarterback, the hour
glasses turned over on your job, and if you don't
develop that quarterback, you and your general manager get fired.
Usually the head coach for sure, will get fired. Sometimes
at GM. And he said, you know, Kyle Bohler got
in you knowing nothing against Kyle Bowler, but he said,
we drafted Colin the first. And his whole point was,
(15:31):
you know, if you're comfortable taking a player with the
nineteenth pick, you should be comfortable take a quarterback. That is,
you should be comfortable taking them with the fifth pick,
because either way, you're gonna get fired if you don't
develop them. And I thought that was interesting. However, I
would also say, now, wait a minute, who are the
guys were passing on in the draft. If we were
(15:53):
to take a guy number five. So I just think
that this draft, very very rarely have I had quarterbacks.
Trevor Lawrence would be the one time, and you know,
and he's been I think, kind of average so far.
Very rarely have I had quarterbacks as the very best
player in the draft to be hot Garrett Tekwon Barkley.
But it's rare to have quarterbacks who are actually on
(16:16):
film the best players.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
It is rare. And we talk about the value of
the position, and that is the other thing when it
comes to it. Lance we talked about first round quarterbacks
versus not. We did all the research and what was
crazy to me, like since twenty fifteen, over the last decade,
we talked about Pro bowlers. Nineteen Pro Bowl quarterbacks were
(16:39):
first round picks from twenty fifteen to whatever. Nineteen Pro
Bowls are taken in the first round in rounds two
through seven. Four quarterbacks pick two through seven have only
made four Pro Bowls. Second round pick was Jalen Millroe.
Seventh round I think was Brock pretty Garnermentshew, No, not
(17:01):
Jaylen Melville, Jaylen Hurts, yeah, Jalen Hurts, sorry, Yeah. Garna
Minshew was a Pro Bowl, he counts in that. Brock
Perty would count that. But that's what we're talking about.
So when we start to have these conversations and we
always get to it right Like on TV, we talked about, like,
hey man, who's the second round guy that you can
get nobody like because the odds suggests that it's not
(17:22):
going to happen if they're not graded as a first
round talent. The odd suggested they're not going to be
a player that really makes a dent in the league.
And this year reminds me of the twenty the Kenny
Pickett year where we talked about these guys Kenny Pickett,
Desmond Rhader, Malik Willison, whoever else was in that class.
Oh man, somebody's going, oh, somebody's going no crowd. No, yeah,
(17:46):
Matt Crown was the one. And so I say this
to you to remind me, hey man, grade the player
for the player and live with the grade. It is
un likely that if there's someone that doesn't pop for
us when we're looking at quarterback, it's unlikely they're gonna
pop in the league like that.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
So, Bucky, I had done this a ten year study,
and you're talking a lot about kind of a lot
of the stuff that I did. So here's the number.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
Buck.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
You either think they're a starter, and if they're a starter,
you're really risk your job you put them in a
first That's what it is. Over the last ten our
last ten drafts, thirty five first round quarterbacks, fourteen third rounders,
six second rounders, and the second rounders. As you mentioned
Jalen Hurts, but you got Christian Hackenberg, Kyle Trask in
(18:35):
the second round. Will Levis like, it's it's a dead zone. Now,
there was a time in the what was it the
fourteen draft. I think it was where you had Jimmy Garoppolo,
you had Derek Carr. That was a little different time.
But now when you look at it, it's really teams
are saying, look, if we think a quarterback is a
(18:56):
first and this is why Jackson Dark, Tyler Shuck uh
Shador Sanders, this could swing either way for him. But
what you're not gonna what you rarely see as many
second round picks. Only six players in the last ten
drafts have been picked in the second round as a quarterback.
And the reason simple, if we think you're a quarterback,
we're pushing you into the first that's we're gonna get
the extra year on you because it's too expensive a quarterback,
(19:18):
especially now, we're gonna get the extra year, we'll get
the franchise year, we got the developmental time. And if
we don't think you're for if we don't think you're
a starting quarterback, why are we gonna take you in
a second when there are much better cornerbacks you're this
is a picked over Your position group's already picked over.
I got real cornerbacks. I got real linebackers who are
(19:38):
gonna start this year and could and his history tells
us could make Pro Bowls. Why am I gonna put
You're gonna go to the third round. So it's almost
like you're either in the first or you're in the third. Historically,
this year could break the moll because I think Milree
goes in a second. I think Tyler Shuck probably goes
in a second.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
I think there's a lot of conversation. There's a lot
of conversation on h Like I said, Bruce Feldman talked
about don't expect to see Tyler shop going to the
top forty. You had Tom Tayler Server put a reporter
out saying NFL coaches and scouts have told him they
believe Jalen Murlroe is a better running quarterback than Lamar
Jackson was in college, which I was like, hold on,
(20:16):
like you probably won't check check the facts, oh jack
Lamar Jackson had four thousand rushing yards in three years.
He had back to back rushing seasons with fifteen one
hundred yards. He scored fifty rushing touchdowns. I love Jalen Murro.
I love his superpowers. Jaalen Murran get close to doing
what Lamar Jackson did as a collegiate player. So it's
(20:38):
compair to even make that comparison.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
Yeah, it's not even doesn't make sense because you're telling
me a running quarterback, Well, you have to be able
to throw something. Jalen frankly cannot throw like Lamar Jackson
did in college. Jalen's decision making his accuracy. It's not
good passing tape. Honestly, Jalen Milroe's tape is not very
good this year as a pastor. That's why some of
the late him. I mean, he's an incredible athlete, don't
(21:02):
get me wrong, but I think a lot of the
Lamar Jackson Jalen hurts He's not Jalen Hurts either. Jalen
was a better thrower of the football coming out. Jalen
was just a little tardy from a timing standpoint. But
he can spin it. He's got an arm, he's got
a really tight spiral. He's got rare leadership stuff to him.
He's got you know, Jalen Hurts is a guy that
(21:23):
I really learned from because I just didn't think that
guy could be a full time starting quarterback and be
a good one. But when you have, you know, and
I do think the Eagles have done a nice job
of putting him in position to succeed, like they're asking
him to do things he does well, which is the
key for all quarterbacks really when you get right down
to it, don't ask a quarterback to do something he
doesn't do well, but maximize his strengths. And so if
(21:46):
you draft Jalen Milroe knowing that you know it's gonna
be somebody has to really have a plan for him.
And you know, I do wonder Bucky. In this day
and age, people get a little sensitive. You and I
know each other, so I you know, we can talk
about whatever. You know, some quarterback, you know some teams
are having a conversation. I talked to teams who already
aren't having a conversation about Hey, if it doesn't work
at quarterback, we.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Put him a running back.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
We're gonna make the shift. We'll make the switch. Now. Look,
listen to a lot of those guys who I don't
know the last time that was successful where you came
in starting as a quarterback.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
Well, I would say that it reminds me a lot
of our colleague Michael Robinson when Mike Robb was coming
out of Penn State. And this is a long time Mike,
Mike rob made a man. He made a transition that
you never would think you go, You go from quarterback
to being a slobbery knocker at fullback. That is crazy.
But that speaks to the type of athleticism that he had.
But like, you can't tell me that Jalen Milroe couldn't
(22:41):
be an offensive weapon if it didn't work out. He
couldn't be someone that you line up in the dot
and do that. He would have to learn how to
do pass protection whatever. But I mean he's four three nine,
he's two hundred and twenty five pounds, four three nine.
You see the body is ripped up like yeah, but
you give him every opportunity to make it as a quarterback.
I mean, no different than Taysom Hill, you know what
(23:02):
I'm saying, Like he's a much better player than taste,
but similarity, do you try and find ways to put
those athletes on the field. And sorry to lead the
listeners on this this dialogue and this dissertation on quarterback play,
but it's funny how the conversation and how we spend
so much of our time talking about it on TV
that it prevents us from talking about some of the
(23:23):
other guys. I'm glad you brought up Josh Simmons because
that was a conversation that I wanted to have. But also,
what's your take on Will Campbell Because there's a lot
of like he kind of bores people in terms of like,
oh the arm length and he's not this and not that.
But I don't know. I saw him at LSU start
right away, have a lot of success in what we
all view as the toughest conference in football. I guess
(23:45):
a lot of big time past rushers. What's your take
on what would you dassy about?
Speaker 1 (23:49):
Well, so, my dad as a as a former NFL
on line coach. He always said anyone who says arm
length isn't important doesn't coach on line, because that's it
is important because if you don't have it, you have
to be really you have a small margin for error
when it comes to pass pro and really beyond pass pro,
(24:11):
just run blocking anything. Because offensive line play is about
first in right, you want to be first in usually
typically that is with hands, and so if you are
going to be a shorter arm tackle, and to be sure,
shorter arm tackles are considered anything under thirty four inches.
Will Campbell's under thirty three inches. That's like Jonah Williams
when he came out. I like Joonah Williams, but Joonah
(24:35):
Williams has not been as big a factor as I
was expecting him to be coming out. They tried to
playhim a tackle and it's you know, it's been pretty
average over there. I think Will Campbell has really heavy hands.
I think that right now. There are some inconsistencies with
his timing of his hands, so the link does come
into play from time to time. I just think he
(24:56):
gets sloppy with the footwork sometimes, and I do think
that's correct. But when the bullets are flying. All the
work you did in practice, like it's got to you
got to turn it into muscle memory. But what he's
really special at is he has incredible recovery. Even when
he gets beaten, he recovers and gets people blocked. And
that that is a skill, that's a talent, that's an
athletic ability that you have to acknowledge for being a
(25:19):
guy that stands kind of straight up. And I ask
his trainer, Duke Mannyweather, about us, So what does he
say about playing? You know, he plays so high up
and he said, well, he said, when he comes out
of his stance, he kind of pops up anyway. So
why not start there? So he you know, there's no delay.
He starts there and then he takes off. Because he's
actually a good run blocker. Even though you know he's
not a he can bend. He just doesn't look like
(25:41):
he's a bender. But when you see him play, you
see the bending, you see the athleticism. I think he's
a tough ass guy. I think he's somebody will hit
you in the mouth. I think he is a mentality player.
And I think he's a patriot. You really want to
know that, I sink. Mike Rabel's gonna say, Man, that's
a Patriot. I'm gonna get Patriots in here, and we're
gonna start with this guy. We don't have a left
tackle and we need more Patriots. And I think that's
(26:04):
I think it's that simple. I like Will Campbell. I
think there's some holes in his game. I think there's
some holes in Kelvin Banks's game. This is not a
real clean tackle draft, to be honest with you, not
at the top.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
Glad you brought up Kevin Banks, because Kevin Banks is
a guy that I feel like people haven't talked enough about.
He's kind of kind of flown, not under the radar
on the process. But man, this conversation about him being
a top ten pick, that your buddy Ryan Poles could
take a look at him, maybe at ten for the
Bears if they just need another body, if you want
to kind of continue to fortify the offensive line. He's interesting,
(26:35):
But I want to go to another guy. They talked
about Tyler.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
Book putt Ryan Poles on me. I'm not like that
with Ryan Poles anymore.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
He's a GM now, he's a big time I'm sorry.
I'm sorry. Okay, Like your former friend.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
The artist report Buck. I just write reports. I'm just
trying to write reports. That's all I'm trying to do.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
So Tyler Booker like this, I think I think he
did good.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
I think I think he couldn't be a good bear, though,
I think he could be a good bear. You're right,
because they.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
Kevin Banks. Yeah, Now what do you think about? What
do you think about Tyler Booker? Like people are making
out like the one thing that I love and appreciate
about him, he strikes me as the bodyguard. He's the
bully on the block. He's going to do it. It
may not always be pretty whatever, but he is going
to give you the attitude. He's going to move people.
But there's always in his game, Like people would tell
(27:27):
me that, hey he's a gap scheme only player. You
don't want to see his big, lumbering self in his
own scheme. But what did you take? You know a
lot of group.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
I went and watched him, So I watched him for
the Joe More Awards too, which is the top offensive
line in college football. So I've spent a lot of
time on a lot of these guys. I think he
nailed it. Everything you said is accurate. It's exactly how
I see it. And and he's not, you know, the
best athlete. He didn't test very well from an athletic standpoint.
(27:58):
But when I watch him on tape, and I went
and specifically search for lead pools and outside zone blocks
because that's going to be on the move. I want
to see him on the move. He's okay, he can do.
He can get some lead polls. Now you don't want
to weigh way out in space, but he can. He
can pull a little bit. He can come from opposite
the opposite guard spot and come around the corner for
you if you need. It's a little better coming from
(28:19):
playside guard to pull over the outside of the tackle.
But I think what you said is important. He is
a grimy, tough guy who you want to add. The
teams who are most excited about adding him they want
somebody who is a bully in their building. They want
(28:40):
a leader, and they want a guy that's going to
take charge in the offensive line, and they want somebody
who's gonna get chippy if you mess with the quarterback.
You know, he's not the player that Quenton Nelson is
from in terms of the entire package, But He's got
that same type of mentality that Q Nelson had coming
out of Notre Dame, which is kind of a rare mentality,
and books that.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
Now.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
I think there's some limitations in most drafts. I think
he's a second round pick in this draft. My own
hometown team to Houston Texans. Man, they need somebody in
the locker room that can they can they can get
rally the troops and turn it into you know, turn
it into a bodyguard squad for the quarterback c J.
Stroud And and he strikes me as someone that Demico
(29:23):
Ryans would love. Demico talks about swarm and I can't
remember what it stands for, but it's a mentality, it's
a work ethic. And I think Booker, to me, he
won't fall past twenty five. I couldn't see that mentality
falling past a team that wants a mentality in their
locker room. Now, he could go as early as twelve
to Dallas to replace Zach Martin, but he's you know,
(29:46):
I think Donovan Jackson from Ohio State is more talented.
He's a better athlete. But Booker, people who like Booker
are going to like him for everything you talked about
at the beginning.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
Of what you said, Yeah, the bully. Yeah, it's funny
you talk about Donovan Jackson because to me, he is
really solid, he's really kind of clean. When you look
at him, there's a lot of things really really well.
I can't say that he's exceptional in any area, but
we've seen those guys play ten twelve years Lance in
the league, like just solid Kevin Zeitler types that just
(30:16):
play and play and play and just have a lot
of success. Let's talk to a break very quick, and
then we'll come back and we'll talk some more offense,
but really we'll start moving to the defense. All right, Lance,
So I want to clean up the offense, though. I
want to ask you a couple of questions. Who is
the wide receiver that we've slept on throughout this process
(30:39):
in terms of a guy that we just haven't talked
enough about. I feel like the conversation has been about
really three guys. Ted McMillan has been on, Matthew Golden,
and then the conversation about of late A Mecca Abuka.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
Yeah. Yeah, I thinka goes into first. I think Luther
Burden is one hundred, that guy from the very outset.
I couldn't get people on board with me on the
LU on the Luther Burden train this guy. So you
have to go and specifically target his intermediate and deep throws.
(31:15):
There's a lot in that offense, a lot of quick
game built in. Let's just get the ball in his hands.
Throw slants, throw wide receiver, you know, screens, throw hitches.
And when people talk about his productivity, I hear people say, well,
his productivity this year. Did you watch Tate? Did you
see his quarterback? You ain't going to be quarterback. Brady
(31:36):
Cook had a good year, a pretty good year last
year on tape, I thought he was like a fourth
round type, third or fourth round type player. This year
looks undraftable, and he's big, he's got a good arm.
There's a lot of traits. He was really bad this year.
So how are you going to put production on Luther
Burden when he's asked to catch a lot of short
stuff and his quarterback just had a really rough year.
(31:59):
For me, he he's got good play speed. He plays
faster maybe than the time speed. When the ball is
in the air. He is a terrific ball winner. He
is really competitive. It reminded me of Garrett Wilson when
I watched him. I think Luther Burden in my personal grades,
is my top wide receiver in this draft. I've got
him over Milling Golden and Egbuka. I think people are
(32:20):
sleeping on them way too much. And I don't know
if there's something else to play here, but Luther Burden
if he gets to I don't even think he needs
the right spot. I think Luther's just going to show
out as a pro. He's going to get out of
that Missouri offense and where he had some limitations, and
I think you're going to see a different wide receiver.
I think people need to remember what they thought of
(32:41):
him before the year started.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
You know, it's funny, man, because when I look at him,
I just love everything about his game. He's a catching
around specialist. He's tough, he's physical. I've made the comparison
to Deebo Samuel just in terms of like what he
does with the ball in his hands, and he's underrated
in that regard. Let's talk about some other guys. You
got the Iowa State guys, uh, the Jays as I
(33:03):
call them. You got the big guy. I think it's Higgins,
and then you have Yoel, who's like the shorter, quicker,
move around guy. You also have some other guys. I
just feel like like we have an empty the clip
in terms of like wide receivers that can play, guys
that we like other guys, because it seems like there's
so many guys. Jadi Broyles from Utah State is one.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
Yeah, you weren't. You weren't a senior bow where you go.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
I wasn't a scene. I was the East West, Okay.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
So Jalen Royals look like. I love Jalen Royals. My
grade on him is I got a second round grade
on him. I think he goes in the third is
my guess, but some people think fourth. I'm just telling you.
He's got great size, he's physical from the slot. He
catches everything, great hands. I think he's one of the
safest wide receivers in this draft. You're not gonna line
(33:48):
him up outside and stretch the field, but he could
end up being a high volume target. He deserves more
conversation than he gets. I think Trey Harris, you know,
I came into last year. I watched Trey Harris last year.
I thought he was coming out and I was like
four to fifth. I watched him this year and I
thought he was a second. I think he goes into third.
He didn't run as fast. He's in the low four fives.
(34:11):
But man on tape, he can win deep. And then
when you throw on the ball underneath, so they do
a lot of and you know, all miss kind of
simplifies sometimes, so you got a lot of vertical it's
kind of that you're on that linear plane. So you
got verticals, and then you got stop routes, and then
you got hitch routes. And they don't ask him to
do a lot of you know, sink and break and
(34:32):
run more complicated routes. You want to give him the
ball on a three yard hitch. He is going to
be a bull in a china shop after the catch.
Like he is a really physical runner after the catch.
He does have that ability to get down the field
and create explosive plays. I don't care that he doesn't
run a five. I don't care that he doesn't run
a four to four because unless you have safety hop
(34:54):
it's going to be him versus the other guy, and
he's a bully when the ball is in the air.
So I think Trey Harris should have a little bit
more conversation. I think he's going to be a good
wide receiver number two in the league. And then another
guy who you know, battled some injury last year and
came back or was it this year that he got injured?
Speaker 2 (35:13):
It was this year?
Speaker 1 (35:14):
Tory Horton from Colorado State. He's a good football Tory
is a good football player. And once again we get
so caught up and talking to the same names over
and over. But Tory Horton is a good football player
who I think could end up going in the third
round and in becoming a quick contributor in the NFL.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
Okay, So back to the Harris conversation. It's funny because
there was one conversation about Trey Harris before the combine
and then it was like he went to the ether,
like he just disappeared because he didn't run a four
to four time, even though on tape we see him
run by guys time and time again in that old
miss offense. And is one of the dangers of being
(35:55):
so caught up in the combine and the numbers, is
that guys that we liked on tape, we kind of
pushed him to the side in lieu of guys who
were the super athletes at the combine. Look Man Harris
was a guy that was a big play specialist. Like
think about a number of deep balls we saw Jackson
Dark throw to him, and all of them were not
(36:15):
schemed up a he's wide open. Because Lane Kiffin was
a master of the pen. He ran by some legitimate guys.
And one of the things that I learned from Mike
Holgerman and your caskal, they said, like, when you have
a big guy that is over six y two who
runs four or five to four or five five, that's
moving for a bigger guy, and that you want to
give them credit for being able to do that. So
(36:38):
it's just funny how forgotten he has become in this process.
When we talked about him, like leading up to the combat,
we talked about him potentially being a look a bottom
of the first round guy. That's what the conversation was.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
Yeah, and you know his ten yard split is a
one five six, which is pretty good. It shows you
how quick he can accelerate vertical leap of thirty eight
and a half and a broad a ten five. So
he's got some explosions. Yeah, yeah, I mean, so I
don't I don't really get it personally on him. I
do wonder sometime if there's a natural tendency in the
even in the league. He started off at LA Tech
(37:13):
and then he came, you know, he came and had
two years at old mess started off at LA Tech.
I do wonder sometime if there is a little bit
of a subconscious bias against guys who started smaller programs
and then portal to larger ones, and maybe that will
go away now that the portal is a mainstream.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
I wonder, yeah, like, there may be something to it,
because even the Matthew Golden conversation, there's that conversation. I
mean there there is that stigma. A little bit goes
from h Town to then being at UT, like and
then at UT you're trying to figure out what if
he's so good, why wasn't he featured? And then people say, well,
because you paid as the bond the money, so you
had to feature him. Maybe, but coaches are coaches. They
(37:52):
see everything every day. They didn't feature him like a
number one all the time, but it showed up on occasion. Uh,
anybody else on office? Oh running back, I gotta go
to this running back thing because hey, man, there's some
love on the street for Dylan Sampson from Tennessee.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
Good. I was hoping you were gonna say, Dylan Sampson,
you can't watch to Bucky had twenty two rushing touchdowns
in the SEC. Twenty two rushing touchdowns, and he gets
tough yards. He gets fifteen yard running touchdowns. He has
really really impressive instincts in short yardage, like he's only
two hundred pounds in that neighborhood, but when he gets
(38:30):
the ball in tight quarters, he's got that Emmett Smith quality.
You know how emmittt could find just the smallest crease
and work his way through. I think he has some
of that. I think when it's all said and done,
he is one of the Dylan Samson for me is
my let's see, I got an Ashton genty, then O'maron Hampton,
(38:52):
and then Dylan ham and then I got Dylan Sampson
three ahead of quin Shawn Judkins, ahead of Caleb Johns.
And who I think is I didn't love him on
tape as much as maybe some other people did. And no,
I think Dylan Samson is a good running back if
he were two hundred and ten pounds no one blinks,
and he goes in a second and no one says
(39:13):
a word. He's about two hundred pounds, and now all
of a sudden, you know, we got question marks about him.
I don't have any questions.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
It's funny because of my last top five, I put
cam Scatterboo over top of him, and some of it, yeah,
but some of it is like Lancelike sometimes you just
want to give guys visibility, and so I had given
Dylan Sampson some visibility. But look, I really loved camp
schtabul And at the same time, I really like what
(39:39):
Dylan Sampson brings to the table. When I watched him
at Tennessee, man, speed, quickness, balance, burst, all that stuff
he puts it in. And the fact that you talked about, man,
you just don't score twenty plus touchdowns in the sec
like you put the ball in the paint. People can
talk about that offense and how they spread it out
or whatever, but I saw him carve up some big
time defenses like scooting and scoring around the corner.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
Yeah. I got an argument with a personnel director about him,
and they were trying to send me videos of him
with big lanes to run through I'm like, yeah, we
can all do that. I can show you Caleb Johnson
if you want, Like, we can all go to a
play and screenshot. This isn't hard. But I watched that
joker on every carry and he is really like he's
a talented, instinctive runner. I think, the same thing you
(40:24):
know in Cam Scattabull. It's it's really interesting talking to
teams who are there's internal fights in buildings right now
about him because you have some you have one section
which will fight for him, and then you'll have other
scouts or coaches or whatever. Well, typically coaches are on
his side, to be honest with That's kind of what
(40:44):
I'm finding, and it's because they don't like there is
no preconceived notion he's a guy that looks like, you know,
a mini version of Mike Alstad or whatever. All I
know is when you watch him play, he's really hard
to tackle and he can catch the ball out of
the backfield. He scores a lot of touchdowns. He's rarely
stopped on first impact, rarely. He creates for himself with
(41:07):
tremendous power and the bursts average. The speed is gonna
be below average in terms of top end speed, but
when you're trying to the way I see him Bucket
is I want to have a number one back, a
good number one, And then scatter Boy is my closer.
We're gonna come. We're going to beat the hell out
of you with these two guys, And like, can you
(41:28):
imagine if Jim, you know, Hardball, got his hands on him.
I mean, he's gonna want to We're just gonna play
bully ball. He's gonna get a couple and all he's
gonna want to do is get downhill and break people off.
So you know, for me, Scatterball is that perfect second
back for a team that wants to play power running
down the downhill.
Speaker 2 (41:52):
This look quickly to defense. We talked about the defensive
tacles and those guys. Anybody else that we need to
touch on who haven't we haven't kind of put enough
light on. I've talked about before coming from Michigan State
and those guys. But someone who we have about is TJ. Sanders.
Did you like him from South Carolina?
Speaker 1 (42:10):
I did? I did, And you know, he's it's interesting.
I thought he's a little small on tape and then
I saw him at the combine. He's not the biggest guy,
but he's built really well. You know, sometimes you just
got to get eyeballs on somebody. It's hard to tell
on tape. You get eyeballs and you see guys who
have the body type and who don't. And he's got
the body type. Like I said, he's not the biggest guy,
(42:30):
but he's got a real NFL body type. And I
think I think he needs to be talked about. I
think Shamar Turner out of Texas A and M some
questions about the medicals on him. He had a leg injury,
so he hasn't been available for this process. His agent
says he's been medically cleared. You know, you got to
check in with teams to find out if they have
him on the border or not. Shamart Turner justin mattaweek eight.
(42:53):
That's the kind of player. Shamart Turner is the undersized
interior lineman who is really explosive and really really fierce.
He doesn't give you any quarter at all. Every snap
is you're in a fistfight. And his problem is buck
he has like five to fifteen yard penalties. He can't
stop himself.
Speaker 2 (43:10):
He's like a hockey gooon.
Speaker 1 (43:11):
If you mess with one of his teammates. He's running
over and cleaning you up. And it's not even like
can't you do it inside a play where they can't
catch you, like you can't do it after the tackle
and they're resetting the football like it's it's late late.
But he has a joy for football. Talking to people
at A and M. They love him. I mean, they
absolutely love him. And I thought the fifteen yard pill leasion,
(43:32):
I wanted to find out, is this a guy that
has anger issues? Is he out of control? Is he
an issue in practice in the locker room? Not at all.
They love Shamar Turner and they said he just goes
to war for his teammates. He just has to reel
it in a little bit. But Shamar Turner is somebody
who you need to talk about. Shamar Turner. And as
I mentioned, the other defensive tackle was as you said, TJ. Sanders,
(43:57):
those are two guys who can make plays on the here.
They're not just drain cloggers like they're guys who make plays.
And Jamary Caldwell from Oregon is another one of those guys,
kind of a sloppy body type and you think, eh,
but then when you will put the tape on him
and Vernon Broughton have these weird body types. Vernnon Broughton
from Texas. I think both of them get drafted in
the fourth. These jokers just make a ton of plays.
(44:19):
They're all over the place. But you know, I know
enough to know that NFL teams like guys that look
a certain way and have certain traits. But then once
you get past the third round, it's like, let's go
get the best for one we don't care who are
the best guys. Who are the best, most talented football
players we can get? And I think that's when Jamari
Caldwell and Vernon Broughton, two defensive tackles in this draft,
(44:41):
are gonna pop up. I like both of those guys.
They make a lot of plays.
Speaker 2 (44:47):
Let's go linebacker situation. Everyone is all we talked to
nausea about Jalen Walker, Joha Campbell. There's love for especially
the guy kid from UCLA Sweat Julia's love for him.
But Dennis Stetsman from Oklahoma and someone that kind of
called my I love the playmaking. He ran faster than
(45:08):
people anticipated at the combine. Uh when you look at
him and wrote his profile, anything to you about him.
What about him and Barrett Carter, Because I feel like
Barret Carter is just well, he got rocks in his
in his in his pants, and they have just dropped
him to the bottom of the ocean when it comes
to the draft. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:26):
So Barret Carter. I had a second round grade on
him last year when I wrote him up. Now lots changed.
I mean, I think he's going to go into fourth probably.
I think the one thing is I thought he was
a four to four low four five four four forty
guy and he came out at his pro day. I'm
gonna pull it up for you right now. And this
is what I think it really hurt him is he
(45:48):
was supposed to be one of the things that stood
out with him was going to be his uh, his speed,
and then he ran a hold on a second up
right here. He ran a four to sixty three. That's
not slow, It's fine. His ten yard split was one
five to nine. But when you think a guy's going
to run a four to five to two, and then
(46:10):
he has a thirty three inch vertical jump, which is
not the most explosive vertical jump. He weighed in at
two thirty two. I think that's one of the things
that hurts a little bit. I know on tape, I
like him on tape. I mean, you know, the testing
and that's all part of it. But on tape, I
think he's a pretty good player. I like Barrett Carter.
I think he's worthy of going on day two. From
(46:32):
the tape, I think because of his testing, he probably
goes on day three. Schwessinger has some of the best
instincts I've seen on tape the last several years. I mean,
it's like he's moving with the play. It's like he
knows where the play is. And he's not the biggest,
strongest guy, but because he's ahead of the blocking scheme,
(46:52):
he doesn't get touched up the way some linebackers do.
He's able to slip blocks because he's running the play
for you and he's running the track for the running.
So he went from he's a one one year starter
with like a billion tackles and I guess the word
and I'm sure you heard this was I heard from
somebody who knew people inside the UCLA program that said
he was just wrecking show Kelly's offense when he was
(47:14):
on Scout team defense, and for some reason, all the
players thought he should be, you know, he should be
a starter, and he didn't start until his last year,
and then he was a killer this year. Now he's
been a special team's ace the entire time of he
was are he's a former walk on, but he's got
good speed. He's an explosive. I think he's got like
a forty inch vertical. He's got explosiveness to him. The
(47:35):
one guy it's not a great it's it's considered a
down year for linebackers. The one guy that Danny Stutsman
is a good player. He ran well. Danny Stutsman's going
to be a starting linebacker in the league. I think
he goes in the third round. Another guy that deserves
more attention is Demetrius Knight from South Carolina. Kind of
a throwback in terms of body type, about two hundred
(47:55):
and forty eight pounds. He's big, he's physical, he can
run a little bit. He runs pretty well for being
his size. They say he is a phenomenal leader in
the locker room and on the field. A phenomenal leader,
very upbeat, a guy who brings good, positive, high energy
to the field and to the locker room. But he
also is gonna split your wig for you if you
(48:16):
try to get down hell on him. So you know
he's got that physicality between the tackles, and he's got
the demeanor that you want setting the tone on defense.
But once you get past Stutsman, Knight, Schwesssinger, Campbell Walker,
you start running into you start running into some ifs
and butts. I think from there and you better have
good special teams play. Even though I like Barry Carter too,
(48:39):
I give him a sixty two, which is a third,
But I just I don't think. I just I don't
think he goes in there. But Jeffrey Bossa from Oregon,
I think he'll be a solid player. Smell Munden has
had some foot injury issues. I think he'll be a
solid player. Uh, he gets it gets a little trickier
after that. So if you want linebackers, you probably need
to get him inside the first.
Speaker 2 (48:58):
Ninety picks, last position group to cover. Just be the DB's.
We'll lump them all together. We've talked about all the
usual suspects at corner. Everyone has. We talked at nausea
about jadefe Aaron, We talked about Will Johnson. Uh, we
got the injured guys Shavonne Ravel and those guys Benjamin Morrison,
(49:20):
Maxwell Harrison has gotten love, caught fire of late. Let's
move beyond that. Who are the other guys? The other
guys that we need to talk about? That may not
be first round guys, but when we get into that
run and the second and third one, we're gonna be
on the live show, Like, who are her names that
we need to talk about? We need to at least
flush out.
Speaker 1 (49:39):
Jacob Parish, Kansas state cornerback. Tremendous, short, area of quickness,
very very sticky. There's sometimes he reminds me of Gyr
Alexander when he was coming out. He is a really
sticky corner with sticky feet and is a natural fleet,
free flowing athlete. He's got that basketball athleticism. I like
Jacob Parrish a lot, and I think he ran like
(50:00):
really really well if I remember correctly too, so I
keep getting third on him. But I'm telling you, I
think he's I think he's definitely gonna outplay outplay that.
From a trade standpoint, he weighed in at the combine.
I'll give you his combine numbers here in a second.
But Jacob Parris is the guy that I'm gonna get
hyped on when we are on the broadcast. He ran
a four three five, he's got thirty seven and a
(50:23):
half ins vertical, a ten to nine broad He is
five foot ten, one ninety one. I mean, you know
the problem we have right now, Bucky, that you've probably
seen too. Is it used to be oh good, we'll
just throw him in a slot. Well, a lot of
teams now want bigger, They want those hybrids now in
the slot. So if this guy were five eleven and
a half six foot, we may be talking about him
(50:45):
in the first round. But it's strange because it's not
like he's one hundred and seventy five pounds. He's one
ninety one ninety one running in the four threes, and
he's five to ten. That's kind of average size. But
there are some teams that say, we just don't unless
you're an absolute doll, we're not going to play you
at slot because it's too valuable for us to have,
you know, a run defender in the slot. So I
(51:07):
don't know where he goes. I think he's a really
really good cornerback. He's somebody that I think is is
going to be a good NFL player. I also think
Jonah Sanker the safety out of Virginia. He is a
heat seeking missile downhill. He's he's got real NFL size,
six foot by two hundred and sixteen pounds, runs pretty well,
can run and hit you. He's got some instincts underneath.
(51:30):
But he's one of those guys that as soon as
the play gets started. You know how there's some guys
that are defensive players, and there's others who are running
into the fire. You know, they say, like firefighters, you
gotta have a different mentality when that cage door locks
in the UFC, right, we've got to have a different mentality.
Jonah Sanker is one of those guys that where's the
fire and he's flying in there trying to trying to
(51:51):
go hit and be hit. So I like that. I
like that, and it's funny because I'm finding the teams
like him too. He doesn't get a lot of talk
from the general public, but I think he's one of
those guys that every team secretly hopes, Yeah, that's our
guy in the third round. That's our guy in the
third round. Well we'll see which one of y'all win
the race.
Speaker 2 (52:08):
Yeah, it'd be so interesting to see what that looks like,
how that looks in terms of the guys who like
those type players, who want to put those players in
the back end. It's great that you brought up the
different the shift that we're seeing in the slot players
because so many colleges are playing with the quote unquote
star position, that hybrid nickel. You have a lot of
(52:29):
different options that if you want as a slot defender,
do you want a safety type, do you want a
corner type, and those things the other things that's shifting.
Kyli Gordon getting paid from the Chicago Bears moving that
up into the twenty million dollar category. The nickel position lance,
Now we're really looking for guys that have a specific
skill set for the slot. The nickel used to be
(52:52):
the throwaway. Ay, anybody that's little, we're gonna make them
a nickel. Anybody that's five eight, five nine, we're just
gonna put them and make them a nickel corner. We'll
put them on board and kind of that's where they go.
Now it's a legitimate position, and it's interesting because you
have to grade twelve positions on defense for starters, and
a nickel position is one of those.
Speaker 1 (53:11):
Yeah, it's why john Dy Barron. You know, some people
are gonna look at Johnny barn from Texas. They're gonna say, well,
where do we put him? Like we can't define his value.
Another I talk to another defensive coach who told.
Speaker 2 (53:22):
Me, oh, I love it.
Speaker 1 (53:24):
He's he's Brian branch all over again. I got a
nickel who can play out in the slot if I want.
And so when you look at a guy like Johnny Barron,
he's got the versatility to play over a pass catching
tight end in the slot. He can play true slot,
he can play the overhang nickel that star where he
can get after it as a run defender, and he
can step outside and play outside. So I think it's
(53:46):
his versatility that may have him as the first. Almost
Travis Hunter, I almost don't count him. He's like when
Tiger Woods used to talk about, well, who's gonna finish second, Well, Travis.
Speaker 2 (53:56):
Is going to be the best.
Speaker 1 (53:57):
He's my first receiver in the draft. He's my first
cornerback in the draft. So who's after him? I think
Bearing goes first because ahead of the other corners, because
he tested well. He had a great year this year,
a lot of ball production, but versatility you just referenced it. Man,
the ability to play in and that nickel role and outside,
to play inside and outside comfortably and successfully, that's kind
(54:22):
of rare. So I think that it has made grading
these guys a lot more difficult. Brian Branch really showed
you just go get a good football player, and a
defensive coordinator is going to figure out how to play.
He'll figure out how to play the safety, he'll figure
out how to play the corner. But you know, it
is it is tricky. They played Malachi Starks there this year.
(54:44):
Georgia did, but he got beat on a lot of routes.
Not bad, he just you know, he just wasn't like
he's playing n He's playing cover nickel basically. So when
I'm watching him in coverage stuff, he's going up against
some pretty good sec wide receivers. They want to dial
the tape back to twenty twenty three, and he's playing
more of a split safety role. He's a lot better.
(55:05):
I mean, he's coming downhill making plays, and so it
really it really makes it more challenging to look at
those players. But at the same time, for some NFL coaches,
they see, oh man, we love it. We love it
because now we can be varied in our defensive approaches
and our personnel groups, and you can't really out scheme us.
I mean, isn't that really what it gets down to,
Bucky right now is we don't want you to be
(55:27):
able to mismatch us. We want to mismatch you up front,
but which happens a lot with D line and O line.
We don't want you to mismatch us on the perimeter
with skill.
Speaker 2 (55:37):
Yeah, it's such a compelling thing. Last man, we made it.
Now we stressed it out an hour. We stressing out
an hour talking about all this stuff and look bad.
It's on me. Let me finish it because that was
a winning combination brought to you by Lows. We help
you save. But no, like we stressed out, and there's
so many things to talk about. I think we have
(55:59):
another podcast before we go to the draft. I don't know,
maybe Wednesday or something. We'll come back and kind of
talk about that. I know, we got the post stuff
I got you on one of the days, and then
we'll pull some other guys in.
Speaker 1 (56:10):
But we got the mock. We got Buckie. We got
Buckie Brooks's mock four point zero.
Speaker 2 (56:15):
I guess something. I'm sitting here working on that right
now as we go through it, because I'm a little
late to the party. But we will get it. We're
gonna get it done. But look, that's today's a podcast.
Moves to stakes me, Lancey. We'll be back later in
the week to discuss all things the draft as we
get ready for a huge event, maybe the biggest event
on the scouting Community's counting until next time, I'm Bucky.
(56:37):
That's lance We'll talk to you
Hosts And Creators
Daniel Jeremiah
Bucky Brooks
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