136 - The Uninhibited

Karen and Georgia cover the murder of Stanford White and the case of the Boys on the Tracks.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
Live, Hello, and welcome. She's my favorite murder. This is
a true crime comedy podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:21):
Listen, you've heard it before. Look you know, and look
you know, and look and listen and love it.

Speaker 3 (00:26):
You do this, we do this part, you do that part.

Speaker 1 (00:29):
It always starts the same with different words, but you
always get confused every time. You must be reintroduced. You know,
there's a lot of people in the podcasting game. They
feel it's very important that at the top of your
podcast you establish what the name of your show is
and what the theme of that show is.

Speaker 3 (00:47):
Also always and that's Karen Kilgero, and that's Georgia Hartstark.

Speaker 1 (00:51):
We never do that part. We forget that part. And
that's why everybody thinks we're the other person exactly, but
we're not. We're the other person. It's very weird to
both of us that you ever would be mistaken. That's
right about who we are.

Speaker 2 (01:04):
Because we are so into ourselves that we can't imagine
that there's any quality about us that is like anyone
else in the world.

Speaker 3 (01:13):
No, we're such individuals, truly, truly uniques. I have a
cat on my lap, Karen has coffee in her hand.
Hackey almost of how truly individual we are.

Speaker 1 (01:22):
True. George's wearing a little sun dress that I got
her when I went to Kawhi.

Speaker 3 (01:29):
That's right at the Kawhi drug store.

Speaker 1 (01:31):
I love it. It's so comfortable, it looks like a
real dress. It's exciting to give a gift someone actually uses.

Speaker 2 (01:37):
It's a secret, not real dress that I wear out
in public pretending to be an actually dressed person. Yeah,
and really I'm wearing fucking pajamas.

Speaker 1 (01:46):
Yeah you are. You know what I mean, I do
and I respect it.

Speaker 2 (01:49):
You like, I can't get to the pajama pant thing
yet that I see other women doing that.

Speaker 3 (01:53):
I'm like, that looks okay, I could do that. I
can't do that yet.

Speaker 1 (01:55):
You mean when someone's standing at like the red Box
machine out in front of the grocery store and they're
wearing pants have like Christmas trees on them, and you're like,
those are pajamas.

Speaker 2 (02:03):
No, not so much that, because that's okay if the
Red Box machine, you're going directly home. It's the more
like the like I'm at a cafe working and I
have like the you can't. I mean, there's like there's
a level of comfortable in your clothing that I just
like that you can't wear in public. To me, I
don't know what you're talking about. Have to always be
a little uncomfortable in clothes. That's why I change immediately

(02:25):
when I get home again.

Speaker 1 (02:27):
Just don't know what you're saying. Have never ever ever
felt that way or dressed that way? I'm getting there,
hence the stress.

Speaker 3 (02:35):
Join me.

Speaker 1 (02:35):
I'm Slawland. Listen, you're a married girl. You have nothing,
You have no skin in this fucking game. I'm the
one that should be uncomfortable at all time.

Speaker 2 (02:44):
All I want is to burn every single bra I've
already gotten to. No fucking underwire bras. It just doesn't
exist in my life anymore.

Speaker 1 (02:51):
I don't have a choice there.

Speaker 2 (02:52):
Right, Okay, well like I do, so, like, why am
I still fucking wearing wires?

Speaker 1 (02:56):
Yeah? Fuck that shit, dude.

Speaker 2 (02:57):
Get and with this dress which is like, got the
scrunchy top up top, you know, so like it doesn't
you can't tell it does the work for you? Yeah,
and then it has these little bows up top, so
like I can't even wear a bron you know, it'll.

Speaker 3 (03:10):
Show it's summertime.

Speaker 1 (03:11):
We all have to go bra list.

Speaker 2 (03:13):
This is a nightgown that should say like something like
a funny like quote on the front that I just
wear around the house.

Speaker 1 (03:19):
How about fuck you I'm married. That would be fun.

Speaker 2 (03:23):
But okay, immediately our new fucking T shirt. I'm not
kidding you. How many people would wear that? What does
it have on it? What's the what's the like?

Speaker 1 (03:33):
What if it was just in real puffy letters, like
from the eighties, Like you know, like it almost looks
like a cheerleader druid on a poster.

Speaker 3 (03:40):
Yeah, like, fuck you, I'm mad.

Speaker 2 (03:42):
We're really excited and happy about it, totally like Jazz Hansy.

Speaker 1 (03:45):
Yeah, you know, we might be cutting into the U
bachelorette party game right now.

Speaker 2 (03:51):
Oh great, let's do a fucking line of Bachelor fucking
at party, closed.

Speaker 3 (03:56):
Penises everywhere, fucking at because I was like, Bachelor, it
doesn't make any sense.

Speaker 2 (04:01):
I'm gonna if you want to add something to the
sentence that you said wrong and you say fucking in between,
it just sounds like you did it on purpose.

Speaker 1 (04:07):
Yeah, that's your little conjunction freight train car. But it
gets you, it gets you back into the conversation.

Speaker 3 (04:13):
You're talking about conjunction junction.

Speaker 1 (04:15):
Yeah, why what's your function now? Okay, real quick, speaking
of speaking of merch, oh merch. This weekend's Labor Day weekend.

Speaker 2 (04:24):
We're having a Labor Day weekend sale where a bunch
of our stuff is on sale from the thirty first
of this month to the third. Go to my favorite
murder dot com and then go to the shop and
I don't know what's going to be on sale, but
I think it's cool.

Speaker 1 (04:37):
Shit. They're going to clear some shit out and then
bring some new shit. Oh, We're about to launch a
mother fucking line of things.

Speaker 3 (04:47):
That we've been asked about. When are you going to
dot dot dot?

Speaker 1 (04:51):
Yeah for two years. I would say, I'm so excited
about it. I think people are going to be into it. Yeah, yeah,
for sure. And we both in this upcoming line have
our own designs. I would say, that's right, which is
very fun.

Speaker 2 (05:03):
We both went to like our sources and we're like
dramia this thing, and they drew us to this thing
in our own style.

Speaker 1 (05:10):
So mine's like.

Speaker 3 (05:11):
Cute, Well, I guess it's similar.

Speaker 1 (05:15):
Yours just to me very graphic, Yeah, yeah, like there's
a real design element to it.

Speaker 2 (05:19):
And yours is like Chris Fairbanks sit it so it's
like kind of sketched out and like cool, like skateboardery,
punk rock kind of a thing.

Speaker 1 (05:25):
I said, Chris, I'm from this dog town and the
z Boys. Can you design me something from my taste?

Speaker 2 (05:33):
I used to skateboard, I used to fucking rip up rails.
I'm Karen Kilgera.

Speaker 1 (05:38):
Chris, I'm all about Allie's and I talk about them constantly.

Speaker 3 (05:42):
So could you design me something from my world?

Speaker 1 (05:45):
You know it's happening, Okay, Okay, So we were, uh,
we thought it would be fun because one of our
one of the things we love the most about this
community of murdering knows is how many sub groups have
started on Facebook for all the individualized groups of Murderinos.

(06:07):
Because there are so many of you, you've decided to
subgroup yourselves according to interest and.

Speaker 3 (06:13):
My cities and stuff, which is like the best.

Speaker 1 (06:16):
Yeah, if you live in a city and you're a
murderingo and you you should definitely just go on to
Facebook and look up and see. Because we just had
one on Twitter. Someone tweeted I believe it was the
San Antonio Murderino group, Small but mighty. They posted something
they had to meet up God damn it. This better
be San Antonio because I looked at it. They had to,

(06:38):
but they raised some money. They raised like two hundred
and fifty bucks for it. May have been in the backlog.
The facts are loose. Look, my memory is not to
be relied upon the facts here, folks. Yes, and you
know that. But people saw that on Twitter and then

(07:00):
all these people are like, wait, I need to know
about this.

Speaker 3 (07:02):
I live near there. I'm so excited. There's some people
near me.

Speaker 2 (07:05):
I have a page right here I'm going to point
to when they're going to get a shout out this week.

Speaker 3 (07:09):
Uh my MFM podcast Atlanta group.

Speaker 1 (07:12):
What's up Atlanta? Oh yeah, Atlanta, Atlanta shows up strong.

Speaker 2 (07:17):
Sure, I'm gonna because we're gonna so Stephen printed out
We were like, print us a paper with all the
names of the subgroups, all the subgroup and he gave
us like four pages. So we're gonna we picked a
few that we really love and we're going to each
name a few, but it's also we're.

Speaker 1 (07:31):
Going to try to name all of them just so
if your interest ever comes up, then you'll know like
four examples. And this is all on Facebook, by the way. Fya, Yes, it's.

Speaker 3 (07:38):
These are Facebook pages.

Speaker 1 (07:41):
Uh, the Simmrinos, who are people who love my favorite
Murder and also are fans of the Sims and nature
of First Drew.

Speaker 3 (07:50):
They create created a beautiful rendering of us.

Speaker 1 (07:54):
Three Sims characters in the in the visage of Karen,
Stephen and Georgia and.

Speaker 3 (07:59):
Elvis, Mimi and Dottie, which fucking I appreciate so much.

Speaker 1 (08:03):
I look like a character actor from the thirties who
is sixty five years old. Thanks for the face.

Speaker 3 (08:09):
Whoever did that clearly not a fan of my work.

Speaker 1 (08:12):
I love my skirt. Uh.

Speaker 3 (08:15):
Okay, oh I'm going next.

Speaker 1 (08:16):
Okay. Uh murder emos.

Speaker 2 (08:20):
Murderinos who are emo yeah, which I as a like, Yeah,
nineteen year old in ninety nine two thousand.

Speaker 1 (08:27):
Can wholly appreciate. And it's fun to say, uh huh
my favorite bad baby names, which is a subgroup I
guess where they just share terrible baby names.

Speaker 2 (08:37):
Okay, someone who has had so many boring desk jobs
in my life, like, I appreciate these because God, it's
so boring them.

Speaker 1 (08:43):
Yes, And then you go, well, I actually do love that.

Speaker 2 (08:46):
I don't know why, but and it's too like so
they're like even like stay sexy and watch football. It's
like I kind of love it because it's like, yeah,
this's interest I'm into. But I don't want to talk
to just fucking any idiot about I want to talk
to like my people about two and the talk about
like crimes that happened in the football community.

Speaker 1 (09:03):
You could use some sort of metaphor during the game
that guy's running up the field like so many and
then just fill in the crime there.

Speaker 3 (09:13):
I don't feel like doing it. I don't watch football,
so I can't do it.

Speaker 1 (09:16):
You do it. It's the jeep arenos.

Speaker 3 (09:18):
They all have jeeps.

Speaker 1 (09:20):
They have jeeps, they love jeeps, they work. I used
to have a gold jeep, and so you really had
a gold jeep Cherokee sport. I bought it used.

Speaker 2 (09:29):
It must have belonged to someone who had a lot
of money to throw away at the time and then
got all that money taken away. It was like this
beautiful gold Tudor jeep sport. My dad took me and
I was like I want that one, like a fucking idiot.
And it had gold like matching gold rims.

Speaker 1 (09:45):
Yes, like it was gold on gold as like my baby,
I love wait can I it was the year like
ninety three, ninety two.

Speaker 2 (09:51):
I didn't drive until ninety seven, so oh that would
be great if my dad had taken me to get
our Carmenos twelve years old. Oh that's right, shit, No,
it was like ninety nine when I got that car.
Great Rams girl, gold Rims first responder Reinos. I want
to join that just for the stories. One percent, like
you come home from a fucking rough shift. Okay, go on,

(10:13):
damn those are there's good stories on there.

Speaker 1 (10:17):
I like killing it Murderistas, which is people who are
into this podcast and fashion.

Speaker 2 (10:22):
Oh I was gonna say Barista's Okay, I get it.
This one I get because I've been there. Customer service
Arenos fucking tell me about it.

Speaker 3 (10:31):
Just flows off the tongue.

Speaker 1 (10:32):
I love that. I bet there's amazing stories just complaining
all day.

Speaker 2 (10:36):
I used to read blogs just of wait wait staff
complaining and it was just the absolute best fucking thing.

Speaker 1 (10:42):
So good. Hold on, Oh drink Arenos. Just I'm with
you in spirit. I'm with you in literally in spirits.
Uh this one.

Speaker 3 (10:53):
I like lawyer Renos stay sexy and don't get disbarred.

Speaker 1 (10:58):
Yeah, please, don't we need do applaud a reinos, where
apparently you go on there and they'll just celebrate. If
you have something like that you accomplish and you'd like
some credit, they'll applaud you for it, which is beautiful sweet.

Speaker 2 (11:12):
Of course we have library arenos, military, there's like the
social work arenos, teacherinos.

Speaker 1 (11:17):
Like the people who are like our fucking bread and butter. Yeah,
like people getting together like our you know what is
it called the salt of the earth. Yeah, like no,
but like our fucking people, the people that are holding
it all together. Yes, thank you civil servants. Oh. Also,
never forget complainerynos, which I know we've talked about on
this podcast before. But they just get on there and
bitch and they allow each other to bitch and that

(11:39):
makes me laugh. I love it. Uh.

Speaker 2 (11:41):
Mental renos mental health worker, murder junkies.

Speaker 1 (11:46):
Well that goes hand in hand with the bipolaryinos. Oh,
which if you suffer from bipolar disorder, then you've got
some friends in the game. I take that. That's like
group therapy, right, that's an understanding, which is really awesome.
Like I went through this and everyone's like, yeah, we've
been there. Yeah, that can take a nap.

Speaker 3 (12:01):
Oh, that's so nice.

Speaker 1 (12:02):
That's great.

Speaker 2 (12:03):
I have to shout out the Murderino makers. I follow
them on Instagram. They're just the people who fucking are
creative and like half the boxes that we haven't opened
yet are like from these people who are making shit,
selling them on Etsy or just doing it for fun.

Speaker 1 (12:15):
Such bad asses. So good here, I'll do the last one.
Stay sexy and join another subgroup. People addicted to joining subgroups?
Can I do one more? I'm sure? Thank you for
being a friend. Areno like Golden Girl fans? That's rare?
You could do one more. I didn't want to talk
to you, but I have no no, no, that's fine.

Speaker 3 (12:33):
Okay, that's fun. Yeah, so find your people, but then
also stay here with us.

Speaker 1 (12:38):
Yeah, don't go don't go away. Don't good. We not
ever yet.

Speaker 3 (12:42):
We haven't even started our Do you have anything else?
I'm really into the Cinner this season.

Speaker 1 (12:48):
Let's talk about it right now.

Speaker 4 (12:51):
You get it.

Speaker 1 (12:51):
You haven't watched it, right? I? Fuck?

Speaker 3 (12:53):
Yeah, I've watched every I think I've watched every episode.

Speaker 1 (12:55):
Oh I didn't know you were watching the new season.
Why would I not? I don't know. I for some reason,
in fact, did I not have it be one of
my things. One week, the Center is the show that
I was nodding, but I don't mean no, that means
yes or no. It was one of her things.

Speaker 4 (13:11):
Yeah, it was your hourray last week.

Speaker 2 (13:13):
I think, well, shit, I am not paying attention. Don't
look at me like that, don't look at me in
quiet judgment. I looked at her and quiet judgment.

Speaker 1 (13:20):
Then I close my eyes, which is really scary if
you're trying to break people out of like not being to.

Speaker 2 (13:26):
Me, oh like a it's a disappointed. You have to
go deep inside because I'm so hurt. No to me,
I'm a cat person, So that means that you're being
when you slow blink.

Speaker 1 (13:36):
Yeah, you know.

Speaker 3 (13:41):
I love this season so much that I know it
comes on on Wednesday nights.

Speaker 1 (13:45):
Which I never know. Tonight we should watch after what
is the What's the Girl From? You should stop recording
now and watch What's the Girl From? Who is?

Speaker 4 (13:55):
Who?

Speaker 1 (13:55):
Might?

Speaker 3 (13:56):
I can't spoil this, but the girl no, no, no,
the girlfriend of She was from mind Hunter?

Speaker 1 (14:02):
That's right? Sorry?

Speaker 3 (14:05):
Sorry, could Stephen do you mind looking up her name?

Speaker 2 (14:08):
She was just screamed and Elvis got Really she was
one of the she would shows the girlfriend of this
fucking stuff cop.

Speaker 1 (14:14):
In mind hunting young hot cop. Yes, God, thank you.

Speaker 2 (14:17):
You know how much that hurts when you can't think
of it, And I'm a person who can never think
of it.

Speaker 1 (14:21):
I do know how much that hurts. And I know
how much it hurts when you think Carrie Coons is
in everything and she's not, but she is in this share.
Can I just say, next time you're watching what's his name?
Who's the best Bill Pullman?

Speaker 2 (14:36):
And he's in a moment of like thinking, tell me
that he doesn't look like he's trying to see if
anyone just smelled.

Speaker 3 (14:42):
His fart, because I swear to god, he's looking around
and being like did.

Speaker 1 (14:46):
Anyone just like in this Like it's just like what
the fuck? Man? But it's really like, did anyone just
smell my fart? Well? Because he also is a guilty.
He always has a guilty little turn up of his
mouth like he's smiling guiltily. That's why that's acting. And
I'm sure that's acting. If you can turn one side
of your mouth in a different direction, that's acting. How's this?

Speaker 3 (15:07):
Steven's not doing it? Am I doing it? Look at me?

Speaker 1 (15:10):
Yeah? You're out.

Speaker 3 (15:11):
Can you do it without moving ryebrow? Nope, it just went,
it goes. It looked like the Joker, damn it.

Speaker 4 (15:22):
Hannah Gross.

Speaker 1 (15:23):
Hannah Gross is the actress who we don't know where
she is. She's in the center, she's fucking Oh. It's
a good show.

Speaker 3 (15:33):
Such it's really set up well. I feel like, I
think this is what I said last week.

Speaker 1 (15:37):
It feels like they took the things that were were
what they led you to believe was happening in the
first season, and now they're giving you all of that
mystery in the second. It's like there, but it's like
it's like creepier. It's so creepy. What I was gonna
say sorry? Because sorry, I was gonna say sorry. Bill
Pullman The reason I've always loved him so so much

(16:00):
because his turn, his star turn in the film While
You Were Sleeping. It's one of the best romantic comedies
there is. It's Bill Pullman Sandy Bullock. I can see
that in so Long. He's the brother Ray Yeah, and
he thinks that she's marrying his hot brother. That's in
a coma. It's the best movie. It's the best idea
for a movie. It's so charming, it's so Chicago. It's

(16:22):
not no, no, okay, she's not she it's only not
Stockrey because she doesn't stalk him. He walks by her
because she was at the L train. Okay, it's really good.
Oh right, Okay, I also want to plug. For two
last two nights, I didn't drink, which is a rarity
for me. Which how was that I couldn't sleep? Yep,
so I read one book in two nights. Yes, it's good.

Speaker 2 (16:45):
And also it didn't help because it was a really
fucking good book and I couldn't put it down.

Speaker 1 (16:49):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (16:50):
And it's called if someone sent it to us from
some fucking publishing, Like people send us like books that
match our shit and like, you know whatever. But this
one was like, okay, it's called The Innocent Wife by
Amy Lloyd. It was like won the first book that
you ever wrote, competition or some shit. It's like it
was her first book is chick, amy Lloyd?

Speaker 1 (17:09):
And she won that competition. Yeah, and it's like, okay,
it's like this chick falls in love. This chick is
like obsessed with this guy on death row who killed
who got convicted for killing this little girl in his town.
And they start writing and she doesn't think he did it,
and they get married in prison, he gets exonerated. Did
he do it? Did he not do it?

Speaker 3 (17:29):
What's her life like?

Speaker 1 (17:30):
Now?

Speaker 3 (17:30):
Is this crazy? What's going to happen?

Speaker 1 (17:32):
It's like really good.

Speaker 2 (17:33):
It's his crime is It's a little like reminiscent, like
she took pieces from West Memphis three, kind of feeling
like it's a hot name from it, you know, the
hot one.

Speaker 1 (17:44):
Damon Eccles, Damien Eckles. Yeah, it's like kind of like
that's like it seems like that's the archetype. Yes, but
it's like about this woman that's marrying him, and it's like,
oh Jesus Christ, that seems like a big mistake, you
know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (17:57):
I love that it's her point of view, Yeah, but no,
but it's also written for like they're also like this
woman made a documentary about it because she thinks he's
innocent and trying to get him exonerated like the movie
and like so it's like pieces from that movie.

Speaker 3 (18:08):
And it's fucking good. I read it in literally two
fucking nights.

Speaker 1 (18:12):
Yes, you can have it. It's a big book. Say
the name again for the people.

Speaker 2 (18:15):
The Innocent Wife by Amy Lloyd. Awesome, good ship, all right.

Speaker 1 (18:19):
Good job Amy Lloyd prizes on your first trip around
first fucking fiction. And it's like, and who was she
up against? Nobody?

Speaker 3 (18:27):
No that year, no one else has written their first book.

Speaker 1 (18:31):
No, no, it's real. It's like, really fucking good? Uh
your first? Is it? Me? All right?

Speaker 3 (18:40):
Good good, I'm glad.

Speaker 1 (18:42):
I'm not mad. But the only thing I am going
to say, which I know is well, first of all,
I'm so angry right now because every time I print
up my saying, I must have my printer set to
something weird, because I put in you have to put
in the page numbers so that you don't lose track

(19:03):
of your pages as you read the dumb things as
we I'm saying you I mean us one, I mean me,
And the last couple of times I've printed things, the
page numbers simply aren't there. Simply I'm going to say formatting.
It's a formatting issue. It's an insert issue.

Speaker 2 (19:21):
So as we told you, we're fast and furious with
facts and professionalism and fucking night shirts.

Speaker 1 (19:28):
Yeah, but not not pajama pants. What's the shirt saying? Again,
I'm fucking married? Hey, you I'm married. Fuck you, I'm married.

Speaker 3 (19:38):
I don't know if a ton of people have that feeling,
but if they do, we want to be there for them.

Speaker 1 (19:43):
Yeah yeah, yeah, okay, I get it. Let's just go
and then if these are out of order, we'll just
have to play by. Then the story is going to
get weird. I just called I just almost called Steven Elvis.
You hear me, go Elvis, I might have to edit
around this.

Speaker 4 (20:04):
I'm used to it.

Speaker 3 (20:05):
You might have did like take pieces of this and
put in the right order all this?

Speaker 1 (20:09):
Okay? And again I got this from uh the first
time I ever heard of this crime. It was an
episode of Criminal. I'm phoebe judge, and this is Criminal.

Speaker 3 (20:21):
Here's just fucking criminal ing it up. Well, you know,
when you go on.

Speaker 1 (20:23):
A road trip, especially a show like Criminal, there's so
many good ones that I was just keeping a post
it note of like look this up later. Yeah, whoa
who was that? That's mebe Okay, she likes to yell
it out sometimes, okay, me me, uh all right. I
listened to it on Criminal, But then I watched a

(20:45):
woman who is a professor and an author named Paula
earro Burrow earro borrow. That can't be right. I think
it is. Okay, she wrote a book called American Eve,
The Birth of the It Girl in the Crime of
the Century. And she then when I went back to
re listen to that episode of Criminal to get the facts,
she's the expert on that episode. What do you know?

(21:07):
So it's all the same. I mean she's the expert
on this crime and uh and what have you. So
it's the this is the case of the original it girl,
Evelyn Nesbit and the murder of Stanford White. Yes, this
is fucking the craziest story and old classic, which I love.

Speaker 3 (21:26):
Okay, So I'll just do it as quickly as I can,
and then I'm going to get out of here.

Speaker 1 (21:30):
I'm just kidding.

Speaker 3 (21:31):
You got places to be and then you can do
whatever you want.

Speaker 1 (21:34):
I'm looking head out. She's going to go watch the
Center while I finish up. Well, I do my murder.

Speaker 3 (21:38):
I have to meet Bill Pullman downstairs if you don't mind.

Speaker 1 (21:41):
Okay, So this woman, Evelyn Nesbit, was born actually Florence
Evelyn Nesbit in Tarentum, Pennsylvania. Just let us know how,
let us know how you will that up. You will
on Christmas day eighteen eighty four, although people aren't sure
if that was the year because her mother faked her

(22:03):
age to make her seem older for the labor laws.
Oh that's a first. Yeah, so she might actually be
younger than that. She was.

Speaker 3 (22:13):
Declared the most beautiful baby ever to have been born
in that county.

Speaker 1 (22:17):
Doubt it. Doubt it and also probably not that hard.

Speaker 3 (22:23):
Yeah, I mean back then, Yeah, babies were fucking They're.

Speaker 1 (22:26):
All splotchy and shit. So if you just had one
that was like kind of okay in the face, they'd
be like unbelievable.

Speaker 3 (22:33):
Put her up on the pedestal.

Speaker 1 (22:35):
They literally had a pedestal in the middle of the town. Yep,
uh okay.

Speaker 3 (22:40):
So everything was fine. Her father was a lawyer, her
mother was a housekeeper.

Speaker 1 (22:44):
And then he has a heart attack when she's eleven
years old and leaves the family high and dry. So
it dies or just leaves the family. Oh he dies.

Speaker 3 (22:53):
Back then, if you had heart attack, you were immediately dead.
There was no look out.

Speaker 1 (22:58):
So yeah, he dies. So her mother her mother's name
is Evelyn. So in the beginning of the story, Evelyn's
name is Florence and her mother's name is Evelyn, but
I'm just gonna switch that because she's mostly known as
Evelyn and it's a heart adjustment. So basically Evelyn, she

(23:18):
was a seamstress and she was a dressmaker, but she didn't.
She mostly was a housekeeper or a homemaker, i should say,
and so she didn't. They were basically had to rely
on the kindness of their family and friends. So they
stayed with relatives for a while, and they kind of
tried to keep it together, and eventually people got like

(23:39):
a pool of money together that and gave it to
the family. Next they go funded the shit out of
this family at the turn of the century, and that
enabled them to buy their own boarding house stay. I
don't know if that would be the move I would make,
because missus Nesbit was so timid that she was uncomfortable

(24:01):
collecting the rent from the people who stayed there every
month or every week. It's like your one most important job,
it's pretty much it besides providing rooms. So she would
make her daughter goat because her daughter was so beautiful
and charmish that she would make the twelve year old
go collect the rent from people who didn't want to
give it to them. The whole thing seems not super

(24:22):
great for a child, so basically that business ends up failing.
They moved to Philadelphia in eighteen ninety eight because they
were from a small town outside of Philly. So they
move into the city in eighteen ninety eight and missus
Nasbick gets a job at Wanamaker's department store, which sounds
like the name of department store out of a movie totally.

Speaker 3 (24:43):
She's a sales clerk. She also gets her two children, fourteen.

Speaker 1 (24:47):
Year old Evelyn and twelve year old Howard, full time
jobs at this department store. Great soga living fuckers. Yeah,
all y'all, you got to pull down some cash for
the fam, Mollie. So one day there's an artist that's
at the store and she sees Evelyn and she thinks
she's the most beautiful young girl she's ever seen, and

(25:08):
she asks missus Nesbit, can she sit and pose for
me for a portrait? Missus Nesbit's like, sure, and so
Evelyn does that and gets paid a dollar to sit
for five hours for this artists hard pass, but back
then that was eight million dollars. So it turns out great,

(25:31):
and that artist ends up recommending Evelyn as a model
to her other artist friends. So then Evelyn starts getting
modeling work regularly. Missus Nesbit doesn't like it. It's a
world that she doesn't think her young daughter should be
involved in sitting for five hours straight. Yeah, with a
bunch of like bohemian red wine drinkers who are like,
let's all be free. But the family obviously needs the

(25:55):
extra money. Evelyn loves doing it. She begs her mother
to let her keep doing it. She and she starts
making so much money she gets to quit her job
at Wannamaker's and she becomes the primary breadwinner of the family.
So somewhere, when all this starts heating up, missus Nasbit
decides she's going to move to New York. She got

(26:16):
a line on some a good job where she might
be able to be a seamstress for somebody, or a dressmaker,
and so she leaves the two kids with more family
in Philly and goes into New York City. But she
doesn't get a job there because she's not as good
as she thinks she is, and everyone in New York
is better than you at everything. We should all just

(26:36):
accept that right now. If you're going to move there,
prepare to suck for like seven years. So she ends
up sending for her children. She moves in June of
nineteen hundred. She sends for her children in November, and
they all have to move into this single room in
the back of like a shitty apartment building on twenty

(26:57):
second Street in Manhattan. She's those places where called tenement houses. Yeah,
I don't know where twenty second Street is. I'm sure
we'll hear about it, but you know, it sounded shitty
and turned the centry. So but but all the all
the artist friends that Evelyn made modeling, and she had

(27:18):
a good reputation from Philly, had already given her name
to a really popular New York City artist named James
Carol Beckworth Beckworth Sorry. And James Beckworth's patron was John
Jacob Astor. Okay, And the Astor family was like the
Vanderbilt and all those the Tiffany's, all those super rich motherfuckers.

(27:39):
They called them the four hundred at the turn of
the century. And they were like, it's like Great Gatsby
style where they had they were. They were oil barons,
coal baron's, railroad barons. They had more money than God.
They had everything. Yeah, and so she gets hooked up
in like that real kind of the basically patron artist scene.

(28:00):
So everyone's a little bit more I guess better at
art heiro. Yeah, Flassy, there's a little spitting on the floor.

Speaker 3 (28:10):
It's fucking red wine. Shit is more expensive. Yeah, there's
actually coasters on the tables now.

Speaker 1 (28:15):
So Beckworth takes Evelyn under his wing and he starts
getting her ton of work and she starts to become
one of the more popular models in New York City.
She's making it there now, she can make it anywhere.
Then she gets photographed by two of the most well
known photographers of the day, autist Serony or Serene and

(28:35):
Rudolph Echemeyer Bonosh, because they can. This is the change
where it used to be that all those print ads,
people would draw a picture of a lady, you know,
drinking liquid cocaine and being like cocaine it'll solve all
your teeth problems and it be like delicious. But that
would just be a drawing that they would pay an

(28:56):
artist to render from.

Speaker 2 (28:58):
It's so weird to think that they needed an actual
model to do that every time.

Speaker 1 (29:02):
Yeah, because but remember those like and I'm thinking of
this as like we in the seventies, a lot of
people had like this turn of the century wallpaper in
their bathrooms that was like advertisements. Yeah, so it would
be like, oh, sorry, advertisements, Oh ed to is meant
from New York City. But it was like the ladies
with their hair up and drinking something or wearing a

(29:22):
corset or whatever. So they were kind of really realistic
looking drawings. But then photographs started being like mass produced,
and they could they could replicate the photographs. And that's
right when Evelyn like basically so she basically became supermodel
it girl like before she was the first Wow. So

(29:47):
she modeled for Vanity Fair, she models for Harper's Bazaar,
she models for The Ladies Home Journal, she models for Cosmopolitan.
She does ads for toothpaste, hand creams. She's on sheet music.
She's like, you know the drawing on the front of music.
She's on beer trays, which are like you know those
damn shit, that's my dream to be on a beer tray.

Speaker 3 (30:10):
She's on tobacco cards.

Speaker 1 (30:12):
Have to look that up later, don't really, Stephen, will
you tell us what a tobacco card is when you
get a chance. Maybe it's a little like a baseball card,
but it comes in your fast tobacco or something. Oh yeah,
of a sexy lady. She's on pocket mirrors and postcards,
and she's the picture on the top of the Whitman's
sampler box. Wow, which is super famous. Can always count it? Yeah,

(30:34):
she can't. So she made twice what other models of
her daymade, so she really was so when she's sixteen,
so she's still in early teens.

Speaker 3 (30:47):
She does she does all that.

Speaker 1 (30:49):
She's like, everybody thinks she's the most beautiful woman, and
you can look her up. But I keep thinking, I
kept trying to put my finger on who she looked like.
She really doesn't look like I was trying to cast
her like I like to do, and she doesn't look
like anybody. But she reminded me of that kind of
weird beauty that went on a rider had as a girl,

(31:09):
where you're like, oh my god, all your features are
just so perfect and kind of big, and you can
just tell she's going to be insanely gorgeous, and she
she has. Evelyn has the same kind of face, but
almost like a little bit more patrician, a little bit
more refined, So she can look in one picture, she
can look really, really young, and then there'll be another

(31:29):
picture where she's like almost naked and she looks really seductive,
and she looks real like like she's in her twenties.
So she's the girls got range. Let's kind of steven.

Speaker 4 (31:41):
So tobacco cards are live on the scene in Milwaukee. Yeah,
cigarette cards or trade cards basically issued by tobacco manufacturers
to stiffen cigarette packaging and advertise. So they had like
baseball players, beauties, boxers, and then in two thousand and
seven there was a card sold for two million, three

(32:05):
hundred and fifty thousand dollars.

Speaker 1 (32:06):
Well, who was on it?

Speaker 4 (32:08):
It featured Honus Wagner, one of the great names in
US baseball.

Speaker 1 (32:13):
Yes, old hoonas god, he's gorgeous. Got the kahonas.

Speaker 3 (32:18):
Honahs was so much more beautiful than Evelyn. She always
hated him. So it's like it's like Marboro miles, what
were those Joe campil Bucks. Yes, so filthy. Okay. So she,
of course, because she's a teenager that's a model, she
wants to go into acting.

Speaker 1 (32:37):
So she, uh, this is when she officially changes her
name to Evelyn, and she's like, sorry, Mom, you don't
exist anymore.

Speaker 3 (32:45):
Mom's like, this isn't a problem for us at all.

Speaker 1 (32:47):
So she gets cast as a chorus girl in the
most popular play on Broadway. It's called The Floor Door.
But she's so beautiful as a chorus girl. She's upstaging
the leads of this play.

Speaker 3 (32:58):
Tabet that she's just radiant. She must have been vegan.
She must have been drinking cocaine.

Speaker 1 (33:08):
She must have been loving that tooth cocaine. Uh So
a man named Stanford White. He goes to see the
show forty times Jesus and Tom bounded obsessed with Evelyn,
and he's the quite the expert on chorus girls. Great
Stanford White. He's the most popular and prominent architect and

(33:29):
designer in New York City at the turn of the century.

Speaker 3 (33:32):
He designed.

Speaker 1 (33:35):
Now Phoebe, our our hero Phoebe. Judge says that he
designed the original Madison Square Garden. WHOA, But then I
read on Wikipedia he designed the second version of the
Madison Square Garden because there was like one and they
built not.

Speaker 3 (33:48):
Are you gonna believe, Judge?

Speaker 1 (33:50):
Are you going to wick a fucking pedia? Fucking yeah?
I don't. I love them both so much. I don't
know who to truth done so much for us. Yeah,
but here's here's what I will say.

Speaker 3 (34:00):
At this time.

Speaker 1 (34:01):
The Madison Square Garden that was there that this guy built,
whether it was the first, whether it was the thirty yeah,
who cares. He's the one that put up the big
screens in Madison Square Garden. There was a tower on
this this iteration of the Madison Square Garden, there was
a tower and on top of the tower, it kind
of looked like a bell tower a church. And the

(34:23):
top of this tower there was an eight foot statue
of Diana and she was she's like doing some archery.
She's got a bow and arrow, and there's a long,
beautiful long, like it looks like a piece of material
that's just kind of flowing out behind her. But other
than that, she's totally naked. And there were people that
were real fired up about that not being there and

(34:47):
not being able to be seen. Wait. Oh, they didn't
want it. They didn't want a naked lady to be
up on the top of Madison Square Garden down everyone.
They were so pissed about it that the Because this
is around the time so and this is straight from
criminal in the Civil War, there was so much there
was so much pornography left over from the Civil War

(35:09):
that all those soldiers were like, can you please send
me some boobs? Please? This is the worst situation. Yeah,
and I need to look at some ladies' parts. There
was so much of it that it like littered the
streets after this a civil war sounds like Las Vegas
right now, exactly.

Speaker 3 (35:26):
So they did.

Speaker 1 (35:28):
In eighteen seventy three, they passed something called the Comstock Act,
which prohibited obscene material from being sent through the mail,
so people couldn't have that anymore. But artists got around
and like basically they basically just made everybody like a Greek.

Speaker 3 (35:46):
From Greek myths.

Speaker 1 (35:47):
It's not pornography, it's art. It's Diana, it's Lady Diana.

Speaker 3 (35:51):
Yeah, exactly so.

Speaker 1 (35:54):
And you know, when you see this statue, it's gorgeous.
I mean, and it's in some museum summer so you
can see it, but it really is beautiful. But there
was there was this after the Comstock Act, there was
this kind of like push in Manhattan to like clean
up the city of Vice. And so one point they

(36:15):
had that statue of Diana covered like so that she
was wearing this big this big was it a night
shirk thing. Yes, it was. It was.

Speaker 3 (36:24):
It was pajama bottoms with Christmas trees on them.

Speaker 1 (36:28):
Standing in front of her red box machine, and they
took the bow and arrow out of her hand and
put a DVD in it. So basically they at this
at the time this was they called it the Gilded Age,
and that Mark Twain. It's a quote from Mark Twain
because he said, and this is you know, this is

(36:48):
along those great Gatsby lines. But like Mark Twain called
it the Gilded Age because he said, that's on the surface,
it was shimmering and shiny, and it was absolutely rotten underneath. Yeah,
so there's a lot of like, you know, the richness
and the beauty, and you think of everybody as like
gibs and girls riding their bikes and everything's really proper
and high necked and twitter and but there was some

(37:09):
filthy shit going on. So back to Stanford White. He
he designed Madison Square Garden in this iteration only the
one I'm talking about. He also he designed the arch
in Washington Square Park, which they had put up for
Washington's this one hundred centennial of his inauguration, and everyone

(37:30):
loved it so much they left it there, I've seen it.

Speaker 3 (37:32):
It's him. That's that's our boy, Stanford.

Speaker 1 (37:35):
What what's up, dude?

Speaker 3 (37:36):
He's good.

Speaker 1 (37:37):
He also he designed mansions for the Vanderbilts and the
Asters of four hundred.

Speaker 2 (37:43):
There's a really great Instagram account called Mansions of the
Guild and EG Gilded Age. Yeah, a lot of the
fucking houses that they show. And this guy whoever it is,
the skyh girl like knows so much about them, and
it's yeah, there's a lot of those.

Speaker 1 (37:55):
You know.

Speaker 3 (37:56):
What's really cool.

Speaker 1 (37:56):
There's also a there's a documentary called The Cruise and
it's about Timpthy speed Levitch, who is this amazing Gray
Line bus tour guide and he wheah. It's such an
amazing documentary. If you haven't seen it, please please find it.
I've seen. It's crazy.

Speaker 3 (38:10):
It's amazing.

Speaker 1 (38:11):
And basically it's like, I don't know anything about architecture.
I get very scared when people start talking about things
like that because immediately the voice in my head goes,
you didn't go to college, you don't know what, you.

Speaker 3 (38:21):
Don't have any appreciation for this, and you can't.

Speaker 2 (38:24):
I'm the opposite where I know I can just go
that's fucking beautiful or I think that looks stupid.

Speaker 1 (38:29):
That's all you really need to say. It's true. But
like I always think, well I should know why something's
beautiful or how it's making that. And if you watch
that documentary called The Cruise, it's a person who loves
architecture and the city so much that he can explain everything.
And he talks about like they used certain stone so
that when like the noonday sun would come down those

(38:52):
corridor streets with because high rises are such a new
thing in New York City, they would make they would
pick rocks that would make the light like glee glean listening,
like people would stand there. It's just amazing. So this
guy was obviously a big part of that, sure, and
you can look he he also made. He built a

(39:12):
lot of clubs because he was like so they said
he had like at least sixty projects going at all
times six zero. It's fucked up path for real, I
want to So so he had his hand in like
because he also designed. He didn't just build the mansions
for the millionaires and billionaires, but then he would do

(39:33):
the interior design. He had all these like big concept
things that he would do for people it's really cool.
That's a whole like separate podcast. I'm sure there's someone
that's done it really well. But he also built all
these clubs because the rich at the turn of the
century it was all about like the different clubs you
belong to.

Speaker 3 (39:51):
So it was at clubs where you could like talk
about being rich and shit.

Speaker 1 (39:55):
That's right, smoke cigars and then hire children. There was
the Metropolitan Club, the Colony Club, the Harmony Club, the Union.

Speaker 2 (40:05):
Club, just so many places where white men could be
themselves and finally relaxed, finally.

Speaker 1 (40:09):
And just be rich in a room with other rich men.
He did, and so he was the architect for all
these buildings. He was also known for having lots of
relationships with young chorus girls because he loved to party,
so he could party with anyone. He partied with super
rich people obviously they adored him, but also he was
an artist truly at heart, so he also hung out

(40:31):
with bohemians and artist types, so he could kind of
party with anybody. He was adored across the city, and
he is the person if you've ever heard people make
the joke of saying, would you like to come up
and see my etchings? Oh, I've never heard that. It's
like joke is a strong descriptor, but basically that is
a thing like people. It's a joking pickup line of

(40:53):
like would you like to come and see my etchings.
That's actually attributed to Stanford White because he would really
say that to these young girls. Calm down, dud right,
so keep your etchings in your pants. Essentially, he goes
he sees Evelyn as the chorus girl, and he asks
another chorus girl.

Speaker 3 (41:10):
Her name was Edna Goodrich.

Speaker 1 (41:12):
He says, basically, get her, get Evelyn and bring her
to my apartment on West twenty fourth Street that was
built over the original Fao Schwartz toy store. And this
was one of his many apartments around the city. He
called them his snuggeries, where he would meet chorus girls

(41:32):
and have fun sexy romps all day and night. Honey.
So the two of them show up, and Edna pulls
Evelyn through this side door and they go up and
it's this amazing room and it's got all the exterior
light is blocked out by big old red velvet curtains,
and there's a table set for lunch for them, and
they drink champagne and then after they hang out for

(41:55):
a little bit and chit chat, and Evelyn when she
first sees him, thinks he's horror. He's super old and
like super creepy. He's got red hair and a humongous mustache.
And she's just like no thanks. But they have some
fun and then he goes, oh, I have to show
you this other room. And they go up two floors

(42:15):
into this room that basically has a red velvet swing
hanging from the high ceiling, and he asks Evelyn to
get on the swing, and then Edna holds a parasol
up on the landing or whatever she's up near the ceiling,
and Evelyn is supposed to swing on the swing high
enough so she can kick the parasol and kick through it.

(42:37):
That doesn't sound safe, well, and also it's just so
he can purv out and look up her dry oh,
because that it's just him watching a younger like swing
and kick and whatever. But it's all like underpants. It's
an underpants undergarments. Then I think, right, so it's lower
her pants. It's underpants show, and I don't like it.
She thinks it's just an innocent game, that she's having

(42:59):
good times with an old guy.

Speaker 3 (43:00):
So then Sandford White.

Speaker 1 (43:02):
Stanford White starts kissing up to missus Nesbit and basically
is like, I'm going to be I'm going to take
care of this family. Here's some money, We're moving you
into a nicer apartment. He ships the little brother off
to a really high end military academy and takes care
of his education, and he tells missus Nesbit she should

(43:23):
go visit her family in Philly. She should take a
break from Mark, go visit family, and while she's gone,
he'll take care of Evelyn. Goodbye, right, missus Nesbit's like,
thank you so much. I've been waiting for years to
get away from my children again. Can't wait to once
again bail on my children. So the next day, Stanford

(43:43):
White tells Evelyn that they're going to have a fun
day of modeling for a photography that they are. He's
got a bare skin rug. You can see these pictures
and this is in the YouTube video that I watched
of the woman Paula uru Buru who wrote America eve
and she has these amazing pictures. He has a like
a polar bear skin rug. It's a white bear with

(44:06):
the head and it's a really it turned out. It
became a really famous postcard of Evelyn in a kimono
asleep on.

Speaker 3 (44:13):
This rug passed out. Well, yeah, drugged.

Speaker 1 (44:16):
It's essentially I mean, she's out like a light and
it's just basically a picture of a girl sleeping on
a bear skin rug.

Speaker 2 (44:21):
It's like the original Annie of those photos from the
nineties and with the babies in the fuckoon.

Speaker 1 (44:31):
Annie on the baby with a piece of cabbage on
top of Annie.

Speaker 2 (44:40):
Come on, ems no, I know exactly family. If I
get it Annie, everyone's screaming at home.

Speaker 1 (44:52):
All I can think is a little orphan Annie with
the big white eyes with no pupils, and I'm like,
it's not her.

Speaker 3 (44:57):
I just want to say that Stephen didn't think about himself.

Speaker 1 (44:59):
He had his phone.

Speaker 4 (45:00):
I looked it up.

Speaker 1 (45:01):
Yeah, I don't want to give it.

Speaker 3 (45:02):
He doesn't get any credit for Remember no credit.

Speaker 1 (45:04):
For Angetty's or those wine mariners that had human hands.

Speaker 3 (45:09):
Oh no, remember that when they were like eating spaghetti.
I loved those videos.

Speaker 1 (45:13):
So good. Okay, so uh, family's gone, right, He says, Oh,
I already read that she's sleeping. That the postcard becomes
crazy pop postcard. So he he then invites her back
to a party. He says, I'm having a party tomorrow
night at my apartment at the top of Madison Square tower.

(45:34):
So underneath that statue of Diana there was like a
little like penthouse apartment that he had built into that
building that was his.

Speaker 3 (45:41):
So he's like, come to my party. Everyone's going to
be there.

Speaker 1 (45:44):
So she shows up. There's no one there, and he says, oh,
isn't it sad that everyone turned us down? So now
he's red flag red flag times twenty. She should be like,
oh my god, I have to really quick go tell
the cab driver or something. Yeah, let me look at
my wife. That's made of what was that stuff that
no hold on uh shita? I would no, it was

(46:11):
called lulinous. I can't remember. This might be too early
for that shit, you mean, the stuff that people lick
and then they got the Terrible Day. I think it's
too early for glow in the dark shit that was
World War One. You're right, ship, don't try to pull
your World War One references into my story. Okay. So

(46:31):
he starts pumping her full of champagne. Okay, and then
he says, I have this room I have to show you.
It's you're gonna think it's amazing once again, this fucking guy.
He brings her into this room that has a mirrored floor,
mirrored ceiling, a mirrored bed, a four poster bed with
mirrors all around it. And Evelyn says in her autobiography

(46:55):
that basically she looked at all of that and that's
the last thing she remembered, and she woke up naked
next to him in that bed. The next morning she
sees her reflection in the overhead mirror and she's greened. Ewwow,
what a.

Speaker 3 (47:10):
Crazy super creep.

Speaker 1 (47:11):
So essentially, from that day forward, she becomes Stanford White's mistress. No,
but she's sixteen years old, he's forty eight. I think
it's not a it's not a fucking love match in
any way. And they they said in that episode of
Criminally said at the time, the only way to prove
rape was if there was evidence that you fought back.

Speaker 3 (47:36):
That was the only way.

Speaker 1 (47:37):
And then after basically this air and time, that's when
they put in the statute statutory rape laws. But you know,
before then, it was every man for himself, every woman
for herself, right, And Okay, so then he says, basically,

(47:58):
I'm gonna get you canted with even higher classes of artists,
and that's when he In nineteen oh five, Evelyn poses
for Charles Dana Gibson, and he is the artist who
basically invented the Gibson Girl. And the Gibson Girl is basically,
if you've ever been to the ice cream store at Disneyland,
the wallpaper is Gibson Girls. It's the really beautiful woman.

(48:22):
And he basically drew it was it was at the time,
like the ideal modern woman. So she was usually like
a socialite of some kind. She was usually statuesque, healthy looking,
riding a bike, doing things of the day whatever was popular,
playing tennis or something, and she and yeah, basically it

(48:47):
was just kind of the representative of like this is
the ideal, Yeah, like what you should strive to be. Right,
So he draws Evelyn, and he draws her in a
portrait that he ends up calling the Eternal Question, and
that's because Freud. There's a famous quote that Freud said,
the eternal question is what does a woman want? And

(49:08):
so it's this really beautiful profile picture of Evelyn and
her hair is partly up, but then it's also partly down,
and only young women wore their hair down, and then
when you were older, married or mature, you wore your
hair up. And so she was kind of like this
half and half. She looked at a girl, but a woman,

(49:29):
and it is that kind of thing of like, what
does this modern woman want? Because it's because they're changing
so quickly. It was on the cover of Colliers magazine
and basically that it was the picture that Coca Cola
ended up using in their ass Yes, I totally can
see it my head. Yeah you can. You've seen You've
seen her, and so it branded her as the it

(49:49):
girl and the face of the gilded ing. Wow. So
then she turns seventeen and she starts noticing that Stanford
White is paying attention to younger chorus girls. So she's
aged out of his bracket. He's three times older than her,
and she's still like, oh no, I'm losing my boyfriend
because by this point she's kind of in it.

Speaker 3 (50:09):
She basically just is it's whoever is there kind of
like caretaking? Yeah, and if there are millionaires.

Speaker 1 (50:17):
Yeah, and she's relying on them yeah, and she's and
relying on them for her career as well. Total, So
she decides since he's seeming to lose interest, she decides
that she's going to try to make him jealous. So
she goes to a party and she meets John Barrymore,
who eventually become one of the most famous actors from

(50:40):
insanely famous acting family. But at the time he was
Jack Barrymore. He was just a cartoonist and he hadn't
become famous or anything. But they hit it off. He
at this party, and she's like, oh, this will be
good because then I'll make him jealous and then I'll
be good.

Speaker 3 (50:55):
But she also liked him. He has for her number
and writes it.

Speaker 1 (51:00):
She's like, it's three because back then it's got a
field three or five thousand. When he writes her number down,
he writes it on the cuff, on his cuff of
his shirt. Cute, and then it's on I know, I
really like that. They have a month long affair. He proposes.
She turns him down under pressure from Stanford White and

(51:23):
her mother, so like he comes in and says, no,
you shouldn't get married. No, but he's also ignoring her. Yeah.
Then he basically when they realize that she's started to
do stuff like that, they arranged to have her sent
to an all girls boarding school in New Jersey that's
run by Matilda Demil, who cease will be the Mill's mother.

Speaker 3 (51:43):
WHOA yeah, and I'm sure goes.

Speaker 1 (51:49):
And it always comes back to liberal Hollywood. But at
that point, I bet you Evelyn was like, it'd be
nice to go to school. I'm sixteen, I wonder or
are you like you want to say me to fucking school? Now?

Speaker 2 (52:01):
After all I've been through, Like, can you imagine going
to hang out with like other girls your age?

Speaker 3 (52:06):
And You're like, what am I supposed to fucking talk
to these girls about?

Speaker 1 (52:09):
Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 3 (52:10):
Have you guys been in a mirrored room? It's really scary?

Speaker 1 (52:15):
Okay. So before she gets shipped away, she is currently
in a Broadway play called The wild Rose, and in
the front row every single night is a new admirer
oh uh huh, and he is a mysterious man called
mister Monroe. He starts sending Evelyn flowers stockings. He one

(52:35):
time sends her a piano, She sends it all back.
One time she sent he sent flowers roses with a
fifty dollars bill wrapped around the base, and the mom
kept the fifty dollars bill and then sent the flowers back.
But she basically he in the almost exact same way
Stanford White did it. He gets another course girl to
get Evelyn to come to lunch with them and basically says,

(52:58):
I'm the one that's been sending you all the stuff
and I'm this huge fan. And he kisses, he kisses
the hem of her garment and like declares this love.
And she's once again it's an old guy. He's twice
as old as her this time, and she's like not
into it. And it mostly because he is the eccentric
millionaire Harry K. Thaw. So basically Harry K though is

(53:23):
from a I believe it was a coal and railroad
barren millionaire family. He was from Pittsburgh. He was set
to a inherit a forty million dollar fortune. Well I thought,
I thought a millionaire. Shut up, go on, Just if

(53:44):
you could see the pride in Georgia's space when she
thinks of these thought I thought, I thought, I thought,
get it because of Thaw. His name is Tho. No,
I got it. I mean, great job. He gets kicked
out of Harvard, he gets kicked out of law school.
He does the kind of stuff around town. So he's
basically the Philadelphia millionaire that's trying to make it in

(54:06):
New York City and everyone's like, okay, crazy. So he
rides a horse's a horse up onto the steps of
the Union Club. He's lighting his cigars with one hundred
dollars bill. Sounds like a dish. Yeah, he's douching it up,
and Stanford White's like no, So Stanford White won't let
him in any club. There's like a kind of a
direct link of like Stanford White's on the way inside

(54:27):
of New York society and this guy's trying to get in,
and everyone's.

Speaker 3 (54:30):
Like, I mean, I'm not crazy guy from Pittsburgh. He's
a huge nerd.

Speaker 1 (54:34):
Evelyn still goes away to boarding school. Oh sorry, this
is key. I'm catching up on my own page. I
really love the thing of using one hundred dollars bill
to light your cigar at the turn of the century
would be like using a twenty five thousand dollars bill. Now.

Speaker 3 (54:53):
It's so much money. It's I hate him, It's very wasteful, sir.

Speaker 1 (54:59):
He also funded a vice sweep of Manhattan, and he
basically was he was obsessed with virginity and obsessed with
like Chastity and.

Speaker 3 (55:09):
Rudy Giliani's fucking great grandfather or something.

Speaker 1 (55:13):
We can trace him back, and he was basically paid
for the coalition that ended up getting that Diana statue covered.

Speaker 3 (55:21):
It was his crazy money.

Speaker 2 (55:22):
Behind her and I meanwhile, he's sending a fucking seventeen
year old pianos and.

Speaker 1 (55:26):
Shit, well okay, and then some and then because get ready,
I'm ready, you know what I mean. So she just
thinks he's creepy and weird, and she goes off to
the old girls' school in New Jersey, and then she
gets what is reported to be appendicitis. And when missus
Nesbit finds out, she can't get a hold of Stanford White,

(55:47):
he is not around to help out. So she calls
Harry Though, and Harry thought immediately sends like the best
doctors to that school. The word the story is that
she was given the appendicitis like a classroom on a desk.
But then there's rumors and innuendo that it was not appendicitis,
it was an abortion from her affair with Jack Barrymore,

(56:10):
but both Evelyn and Jack Barrymore absolutely denied that that
was true.

Speaker 3 (56:15):
Of course I did so either way Harry thought.

Speaker 1 (56:18):
Comes out as this white night and he saved the day,
and missus Nesbit thinks he's great, so he convinces her
that he should that she should allow him to take
the family on like a healing European vacation, and she's like,
that sounds great.

Speaker 3 (56:36):
We barely know you.

Speaker 1 (56:37):
Let's do this thing. But instead of the rest and
relaxation that he promised on this trip, he packs the
itinerary and he absolutely just exhausts missus Nesbit.

Speaker 3 (56:49):
So she's like, I'm prety, I'm too old to do
this stuff, right. My lungs are filled with coal dust.

Speaker 1 (56:58):
So basically they all there's constant fighting and problems between
Evelyn and her mother on this trip, and they end
up she missus Nutsman, ends up staying in England and
Harry takes Evelyn to Paris. So but basically it was
intentional on his part. When they're in Paris, he proposes
to Evelyn, and of course she's not into him. He's
clearly kind of like crazy, overtly crazy, but he's also

(57:24):
like super rich. And she grew up, you know, around
like hearing his name and you know, the the Thaw
family was huge in Pennsylvania. So she knew that she
had also lost a lot of status with Stanford White,
kind of like not being that into her anymore. Yeah,
And she was worried about getting more work, and she

(57:44):
was worried about a lot of stuff.

Speaker 3 (57:45):
So she was considering it.

Speaker 1 (57:47):
But he says he can't marry her until she tells
him everything about the relationships that she had with Stanford White. Oh,
and she's like, well, no, it's I mean, don't worry
about it. And he's like crying and harassing her through
the night till she finally tells the story of what
happened to her in the mirrored room, and he goes

(58:08):
fucking batshit bananas. And that's the proof he's been looking
for because he's really pinpointed Stanford White as like the
downfall of society and virginity. He's all virginity and crazy
and what purity, all this bullshit. Yeah, so he this
is like the information that he's been waiting to hear.
So then upon hearing that story, he accuses missus Nesbit

(58:30):
of being an unfit parent, which is totally.

Speaker 3 (58:35):
Evelyn number one. Yeah, but then it creates a bigger rift.

Speaker 1 (58:40):
So then she's basically separated from her family the old
controlling boyfriend style.

Speaker 3 (58:45):
And then he takes this is insanity.

Speaker 1 (58:49):
He takes Evelyn in Europe to all the sites where
virgins were martyred.

Speaker 3 (58:54):
Great, so sounds like a fun time, I mean.

Speaker 1 (58:57):
And at the site where Joan of Arc was martyred
in the Guest Book, he writes, quote, she would not
have been a virgin if Stanford is around.

Speaker 3 (59:07):
And it's like that it still exists, I get. I mean, yeah,
I think that's a provable thing.

Speaker 1 (59:11):
Holy. In the guest Book, no Less, Jana Arc comes back.
She said, could you not fucking do that? You know what, motherfucker,
I didn't die for this. You're the type I was
fighting against. Also, how about this pixie cut? I love
the movie Joan of Arc starring Milla Joviovich, because no
one that pixie cut. No one can wear that pixie cut.

(59:33):
But Milla jovovit so good, so proud of her. So
then at their last stop it gets worse. Always at
their last stop, at a castle in Austria called Katzenstein Castle,
there are three staff members and he makes them go
stay at one end of the castle and he holds
Evylyn prisoner at the other side. Cool, I'm with you

(59:54):
so far. He ties her up, beats her with a whip,
and sexually assault her for two weeks.

Speaker 3 (59:59):
Wait where did this come from? I thought we were
just being tourists.

Speaker 1 (01:00:02):
No, he is. He has some issues with whipping, crying up,
and beating people. I'm sorry, mister fucking purity. Yes, this
is what I'm talking about. There's always when you those
people that are like, well you need to do listen that.
It's like, really, how come, sir? And that really applies
to everything all the time.

Speaker 3 (01:00:22):
Don't be passionate that anything. Are you using like a
fucking liar?

Speaker 1 (01:00:25):
What's my point? Is a good question to ask every
once in a while. Yeah, what am I talking about? Right? So,
basically horrible, it's exposed to her that he's basically an intense,
abusive sexual abuser and this is like what sex means
to him. But then, of course on their trip home,

(01:00:46):
he's incredibly apologetic and weepy and please forgive me and
all this stuff. Now, this is the point where missus
Nesbit gets remarried and is just completely estranged, and Evelyn
knows there'll be she has nothing to go back to,
so she's She ends up on April fourth, nineteen oh five,
she Evelyn Nesbit, marries Harry Thaw and he picks out

(01:01:06):
her wedding dress, a black traveling suit with brown trim.

Speaker 3 (01:01:09):
Sounds so fun, handsome goth.

Speaker 1 (01:01:14):
And his mother he was a huge mama's boy, and
his mother is insanely controlling of his life. And of
course she did not approve of a chorus girl. That
was like, you know, to those super rich people, sorry,
you're a famous model, Yeah, but not good enough. She
actually had a calendar come out around the same time,

(01:01:35):
and she's basically nude, but she's got like flowers on
her shoulder.

Speaker 3 (01:01:39):
It's very beautiful and tasteful, but of course at the
time it was scared insane. Mother thought tried to go
out and buy up.

Speaker 1 (01:01:45):
All those calendars so no one would see them. Yeah,
or was she really into it?

Speaker 3 (01:01:51):
I just wanted a wallpaper wall She say has secrets too.

Speaker 1 (01:01:54):
They move into mother Thaw's mansion in Les, Pennsylvania, Great
and Evelyn is now cut off from the outside world.
Mama thowt. Harry is his mother's lap dog, essentially, and
Evelyn is just stuck in a mansion essentially. She sounds

(01:02:16):
way more boring than you think right, way like less cool, not.

Speaker 3 (01:02:19):
Cool at all, because she has no money, she doesn't
get to control anything.

Speaker 1 (01:02:23):
She just has to do what they want.

Speaker 3 (01:02:24):
And Haunted probably.

Speaker 1 (01:02:26):
Nightmare that it's super drafty and she's just wearing that
black fucking suit. So also it's awful because Harry Thought
is so obsessed with Stanford White that he is like
manic about it. He stews about it day and night.
He rants about him constantly. They never leave the mansion

(01:02:51):
for a full year, and he's just sitting around planning
Stanford White's demise. Meanwhile, Stanford White has no idea about
Harry Thaw other than he's that asshole that lights cigars
with money. So a year later, on June twenty fifth,
nineteen oh six, Harry tells Evelyn that they're going to

(01:03:13):
take a luxury cruise to Europe, and she's actually excited
just to get out of the house and get away
from that mother. And she's really excited until he says, oh,
but first, we have to go into New York City
before we sail. We need to go see the opening
night of the show. Mademoiselle Champagne by Edgar allen Wolf

(01:03:34):
and it's playing at the rooftop Theater Madison Square Garden.
So Evelyn's freaking out because she knows Stanford White will
be there. I want to run into my axe. I
get that exactly.

Speaker 3 (01:03:44):
It's his place, it's his theater. He designed all of it.

Speaker 1 (01:03:47):
He's at all these shows. She's freaking out. It's the
middle of summer and it's really hot. Harry Thaw arrives
wearing a big, long black overcoat. Nobody thinks it's weird
because he's the weirdo, eccentric millionaire. Evelyn relaxes when they
get there, and she looks around and sees that Stanford
White is not there, and so they watch the show.

(01:04:10):
Ten minutes before it ends, they hear a little bit
of a commotion in the back and Stanford White has
entered the room and sits down at his table. So
Evelyn tells Harry she thinks they should go, and he's like,
you're right, we should go. They get up, they go
to walk out, and as they pass Stanford White, Harry
thought pulls out a gun and in front of nine
hundred people, he shoots Stanford White twice in the head

(01:04:33):
and once in the shoulder and kills him instantly. Shit
And at first people think he yells, you ruined my wife,
But then later on the people that were nearby said no, no, no,
he said you ruined my life. So it's not about
the wife. It's all about him, of course. So of course,
immediately Harry Thoughts arrested, Evelyn goes, stays at a friend's apartment.

(01:04:56):
She is completely in a daze. She has no idea
what to do. She's not going back to that crazy mansion.
Is no Pennsylvania. And immediately it's a media circus. So
this is the it girl from four years ago and
two millionaires and a murder, And of course there's so
much dirt to come out about Stanford White because now

(01:05:18):
all of a sudden, it's all the stories of his
snuggeries around town.

Speaker 3 (01:05:22):
And all the fourteen year old chorus girls that are like, yeah,
I know that dude. He sent me a piano too, Well.

Speaker 1 (01:05:27):
That was gonna writeout what I'm sure he's done that before. Yeah,
they used to back then, sending pianos was like a text,
did you get a piano from him? Oh my god,
he sent me a piano. Piano? Do not write back
to that piano girl. So there's now articles coming out
that say, was Harry Thodd justified because of Stanford White's

(01:05:51):
terrible behavior, And Harry, of course himself thinks he's going
to get led off because he did the world of
service by killing White. A week after the murder, there's
a film Rooftop Murder by Thomas Edison that's released in
a nickelodeon.

Speaker 3 (01:06:04):
Oh, he just fucking banged that thing out.

Speaker 1 (01:06:06):
And anybody who like when people constantly ask us about, like,
how do you feel about this new trend in true
crime and why everyone's interested in true crime right now,
and it's like, no, this has been going on since
fucking Thomas Edison n before. Yeah, that's the stone of arc.
People are into it. Then, I don't know, there are
people standing around gossiping, Yeah, look at her killings. My god,

(01:06:27):
that hair. Okay. So one of the quotes from the
book American Eve I was telling you about is from
a Tenderloin cab driver who when a reporter asked him
if he was like surprised by this murder, he said,
I was surprised it was a husband who shot him.
I always thought it was going to be a father.

Speaker 3 (01:06:50):
That's how much people knew that Stanford White was into
like young young.

Speaker 2 (01:06:54):
Girls whoa tenderlin cab driver? Yeah, handsome driver, isn't that
they called him? Then some cab Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:07:00):
I think this might have been a little bit later,
but I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:07:04):
It's just the nineteen sixties. It's just Oh, I thought
I was gonna it's Robert.

Speaker 3 (01:07:08):
De narrow as hands here.

Speaker 2 (01:07:11):
I thought it'd be your husband too, But then he's like,
giddy up, giddy up, frosty.

Speaker 3 (01:07:17):
Harry thought this is amazing.

Speaker 1 (01:07:20):
There are pictures of Harry thought in jail he had
he called reporters in to take pictures of him with
his butler bringing him food from Delmonico's.

Speaker 3 (01:07:32):
He had a little brass bed put into his jail cell.

Speaker 1 (01:07:36):
So there's this picture of him sitting next to her
brass bed with all these nice clothes folded over it,
and he's eating what looks.

Speaker 3 (01:07:42):
Like it's a race any aspect.

Speaker 1 (01:07:46):
Yes, he's having some nice aspects, nails, an aspect, and
a cling peach for dessert. But it's the lawyers are like,
could you not do that? Because he's like, oh, I
think it'll stir up sympathy them seeing me trying.

Speaker 3 (01:07:59):
To live my life in the jail cell.

Speaker 1 (01:08:01):
Oh, They're like, don't do that anymore. Yeah, he gets
his doctor to convince authorities that he needs to drink
one bottle of champagne a day. I mean, I mean
to hi, saying doctor Wilson. Okay. So the defense tells
Evelyn that she has to play the griving, grieving widow
on the on the stand and testify about what Stanford

(01:08:21):
White did to her to justify what Harry that Harry
murdered him and save him from the electric chair. And
it's rumored that she was paid somewhere between twenty five
and one hundred thousand dollars to do that. Jesus. She
gets on the stand, she talks about the red velvet
swing and it blows America's mind. People are freaking out,
like there's nothing this salacious has ever been in the newspaper.

(01:08:45):
And Stanford White, the victim now gets drugged through the
mud because of all this shit, and the Thaw family
paid that basically to have all this dirty laundry come outs.
They were handing out money left, right and center. They
also tell missus Nesbit that they will convict her for
prostituting her daughter unless she testifies for Henry Harry thought dude.

(01:09:08):
But then Evelyn's brother comes back into the scene, Howard,
and she's like, what's up.

Speaker 2 (01:09:12):
I'm back from military school and I'm my own person.

Speaker 1 (01:09:16):
Yeah, forget about me, because he was.

Speaker 3 (01:09:18):
There to blame Evelyn for the murder and say that
Stanford White was like a father to him and.

Speaker 1 (01:09:23):
He claimed Evelyn the daughter or the mother the daughter,
basically to blame her for her husband killing Stanford White
and saying I love Stanford White like he was my father.

Speaker 3 (01:09:33):
So yeah, brother, because they didn't fucking drug and a
rape you that's right?

Speaker 1 (01:09:37):
And yeah he was gone. He was he was benefiting
from all that money purely just got the ship. Look,
this is typical this guy behavior. But it turns into
such a circus that this becomes the first jury in
America that's sequestered. Whoa this for this case? They're like,

(01:09:58):
shh zip it. Everybody That judge was like, I'm going
to make up a thing. Yeah, you guys all have
to stay out there, and they're like, hey, what's a
good word for it. So it's called sequester, It's called sequestered.
The Thaw family oh oh so this trial, uh Harry lawyer.
Harry's lawyers say that he should plead insanity, but Missus

(01:10:19):
Missus Thaw, Mama Thaw says, no fucking way, there is
no mental illness in this family. Yeah, that means there's
a hundred mental illness. That's her son. From childhood, he
was known as mad Harry. Oh my god, he was
clearly eccentric was not an accurate word for him. Uh So,
this trial ends up ending in a hung jury. And

(01:10:41):
after that is over, the Thaw family has a movie
made called The Unwritten Law, and it shows Harry being
found innocent and then freed while angels sing in the background.
That's because that's what happened, because that's just get that,
get that propaganda, basically a documentary. At the second trial,
Harry is acquitted by reason of insanity. He sent to
an asylum upstate. Evelyn's not going to get any of

(01:11:04):
the money. She doesn't get shit because Mother Thaws in
charge and she blames Evelyn for his downfall. Harry files
for divorce when he's upstayed in the asylum. He escapes
the asylum. He goes to Canada. He does what he
wants for a while just chills. He's eventually brought back.
He's and then released and declared saying in nineteen fifteen,

(01:11:25):
but within a matter of years after that, like basically
everybody going, He's fine now, that was just a one off. Harry, though,
is arrested because a young boy is found in a
daze after jumping out of Harry Thow's hotel room window
where he was holding that boy against his will and
whipping him. Yes, And so then it turns out everyone

(01:11:48):
starts to find out that Harry Thaw used to use
the name mister Monroe when he was like people's secret admirers,
because he had this whole scam where he would solicit
young actresses to sign up for training courses in New
York City and then he would get them in a room,
beat them with whips, scaled them.

Speaker 3 (01:12:10):
With burning water. My god, but he was a millionaire, so.

Speaker 1 (01:12:14):
Nobody ever talked about it, and nobody gave a shit,
and they just all like went away like abused and
like freaked out. So she was like a masochist from
day one, and like that's what I love. It's Oh
that shit is always underneath those people that.

Speaker 3 (01:12:30):
Are like clean up this city. We can't have a
statue of a nakedly Juliani.

Speaker 2 (01:12:33):
We're on to you, easy, I'm sorry, allegedly, allegedly, allegedly,
we're onto you.

Speaker 1 (01:12:40):
So after all of this, Evelyn goes into vaudeville for
a little while. She ends up having a son named
Russell uh. She claimed it was Harry thoughts on. Some
people argued that she opened to speak easy.

Speaker 3 (01:12:52):
In the twenties, she was an alcoholic. She's a morphine addict.

Speaker 1 (01:12:55):
In the through the thirties, she started doing burlesque for
a little while, and this entire time Harry Though, surveiled
her and watched her until nineteen twenty six. Evelyn lost
her job at the Mulain Rouge cafe and tried to
kill herself by drinking disinfectant. Harry, though, came to visit her.
They reconciled, but were never together again. Evelyn has but

(01:13:18):
ended up writing two memoirs. One was called The Story
of My Life in nineteen fourteen, and the other was
called Prodigal Days in nineteen thirty four.

Speaker 3 (01:13:26):
Then this is kind of cool.

Speaker 1 (01:13:28):
She has kind of a rebirth because during World War
Two she taught ceramics in Los Angeles.

Speaker 3 (01:13:35):
So I think she started she moved to the West Coast.

Speaker 1 (01:13:37):
And kind of started it. It became like a hippie. Yeah.
And she was paid ten thousand dollars as the technical
director for a movie that they made in the fifties
called The Girl in the Red Velvet Swing starring Joe
and Collins. Whoa. Yeah, so there was kind of this
like a fictionalized movie. I believe about her life that
they that she was paid for. Harry Thought died in

(01:13:59):
nineteen forty seven. He left Evelyn ten thousand dollars from
his estimated one million dollar es tanks bro.

Speaker 3 (01:14:06):
Thanks good of you.

Speaker 1 (01:14:08):
Evelyn died in a Santa Monica nursing home on January seventeenth,
nineteen sixty seven, age of eighty two. Oh I wish
she was so cool as an old lady. Yeah. So anyway,
that's the unbelievable story of Evelyn Nesbit, the it girl
of the Gilded Age.

Speaker 2 (01:14:26):
Karen, that was fucking excellent. Thank you, great, thank you,
and over to you. We're back, my co host.

Speaker 1 (01:14:35):
Don't forget we have Stephen Mann in the street we
need if we need him for an over in Memphis. Yes,
you know, walking the Streets of Memphis.

Speaker 2 (01:14:43):
Live from Memphis. Yeah, walking the streets all right? Who Okay,
here's another long one you and I picked. Okay, good,
we went long this week and we're going to now
start your road trip now.

Speaker 1 (01:14:55):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:14:56):
This is truly one of my favorite one I ever Yeah,
like truly one of my favorite murders I've ever researched.

Speaker 1 (01:15:03):
Did you know when you started or it as you
went through? Okay, So I've known about this one for
a while. It's an old, old episode.

Speaker 2 (01:15:10):
It was just a fucking five minute thing on Unsolved
Mysteries originally season one, like original So it's always been
in the back of my mind of like this thing
that happened, what a weird, curious thing, And it's been
a bookmark on my his like you know, I have
the like murders to do bookmark and it's just always
been one.

Speaker 3 (01:15:27):
But I know it's a deep fucking dive, and it
gets bigger and bigger the more you dive.

Speaker 2 (01:15:33):
For example, True Crime Garage did a four fucking episodes,
like four parts shit of this, like an hour long
truckrime Garage. It's funny. So it's like a big one
that's crazy. So I did my best to like get
as much as I could in there. It also like
my as I love. It's a cold case and it
goes to the fucking top.

Speaker 1 (01:15:53):
It goes you know what I mean? Yes, so this
is the Boys on the Tracks.

Speaker 3 (01:15:59):
Oh yes, you know, yep, I mean I know, but
I don't, dude, you don't.

Speaker 1 (01:16:04):
I didn't know. No, But if I had known, I
might not have tried to do this because it's so hard.
It's here's what I know pretty much only what was
on Unsold Mystery.

Speaker 2 (01:16:12):
And here's the thing, when they did the Unsolved Mysteries,
they didn't know shit either.

Speaker 1 (01:16:16):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:16:17):
The episode ends with them going they thought they saw
a guy and Camo like walking around town that night.

Speaker 1 (01:16:22):
That's it. Yeah, No, this goes to Vifa king top
buckle in, everybody, buckle the fuck up, motherfuckers.

Speaker 3 (01:16:28):
Okay, let's start chronologically.

Speaker 2 (01:16:30):
Let's just like start with the basics that we know, okay,
and then we'll get into the conspiracy shit.

Speaker 1 (01:16:35):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:16:35):
So, on August twenty second, nineteen eighty seven, two teenage
friends sixteen year old Don Henry and seventeen year old
Kevin ives they're from Bryan, Arkansas, which is a little
suburb right outside of Little Rock. It's like a small town.
They're spending the weekend hanging out together. They've been friends
for a little while. They're like, you know, normal teenage kids,
popular boys. They're about to go into their senior year

(01:16:56):
of high school. They're totally normal, like nineteen eighties looking kids.
They look like they'd be in heavy metal parking lot. Sure,
you know what I mean, Like those hair parted up
the middle. Yeah, like kind of feathered out a little
bit and like maybe a little ducktail in the bed, just.

Speaker 1 (01:17:11):
A tiny bit. I think late eighties that that was
starting to get uh yeah, you were either going to
be metal or new wave.

Speaker 3 (01:17:17):
Right, Oh, they were not going to be a new
wave at all.

Speaker 2 (01:17:20):
Like, these were going to be kids that were going
like they had their muscle cars that they loved. They
were going to be just like normal family men someday. Sure,
and we'll put a photo of them up with the post.
I mean, they're like cute kids, right, like cute teenage boys.
So let's see, it's the end of the summer, they're
starting their senior year. It's a Saturday. They're hanging out

(01:17:40):
with some friends at the local fucking you know, drugy
parking lot.

Speaker 1 (01:17:44):
Sure, as you do in a small town exactly. Yep.

Speaker 2 (01:17:47):
They the boys go back to Don's house around midnight
for their curfew check in. They were spending night as ons.
Don's dad, Curtis, checked in with them, and then he
was and then the kids. The boys were like, can
we go out and go do some hunting in the woods,
which is like their normal thing they grew up doing that.

Speaker 3 (01:18:04):
Don was like, great, go for it, to see you later.
So the boys were going to do a thing of
a kind of hunting.

Speaker 2 (01:18:10):
Called spotlighting, which, as someone from the suburbs, I don't
know what the fuck that is. Basically, it's an illegal
form of hunting where you shine the flash height into
your praise eyes to stop them and then shoot them.
I guess it's illegal, but I heard that like with
like sweet baby.

Speaker 1 (01:18:28):
Raccoons, it's not illegal. Don't please don't shoot recons? Okay,
who that'd be horrible to shoot a raccoon. Well, raccoons
are like actually really evil in some places, right, yeah,
but still they're they're like little people in costumes. They
like they use their hands like people. They can't just
shoot a fucking and they look like cats.

Speaker 3 (01:18:47):
Like yeah, and they're up to something like let them
have their plan.

Speaker 1 (01:18:51):
Remember when one ran in front of your car the
other day when we were driving we were leaving my
fucking parking garage. Karen was driving me somewhere, and one
just like like did a like I might I run
into the whoo and like Karen, like a cat fucking
slammed on the rigs. I really impress it. I'm a
graduate of the Bob BonDurant School of Driving. That's why

(01:19:12):
there you go. No, that's a lie. But my friend
Andy Wacker, I don't know who that is. I know
it's it's a reference that only like ten people in
northern California, Don and fucking Kevin would have known. They
would know for some reason, I think how richer housewives
to do something went to the Bob Bondarrette School of Driving.

Speaker 3 (01:19:29):
It was like escape driving and stuff like that.

Speaker 2 (01:19:32):
Like that sounds amazing. I think I'm already like I'm
not just a member, I'm the owner.

Speaker 1 (01:19:38):
Yeah. Judy Packard, my friend Andy's mom, who was the
coolest and nicest mom, had a sticker for the Bob
BonDurant School of Driving on the back of her two
eightiesz X and that's why I always thought about it.
I'm I'm, I'm on board. Okay.

Speaker 3 (01:19:51):
So they go out around twelve thirty in the morning
to go do this thing.

Speaker 2 (01:19:55):
They have the flashlight and Don's prize twenty two rifle
shotgun I don't know, and they head out into the
familiar woods that they fucking.

Speaker 1 (01:20:04):
Grew up like going through. Yep.

Speaker 3 (01:20:06):
So all right, boom there. That is cut to the
following morning.

Speaker 2 (01:20:10):
So it's now August twenty third, nineteen eighty seven, at
about four to twenty five in the morning. Oh no,
a seventy five car six thousand ton cargo train is
on its regular night run from Texarkana where you that
crazy killer was, to Little Rock.

Speaker 1 (01:20:28):
So it's the Servant girl annihilator. No, I remember the
guy who might be the killer, the guy who was
the city was a good fraid to go to sleep?
Yeahlment was.

Speaker 2 (01:20:37):
Yes, it might be the Zodiac, right, So that's texarkanaky.
So they're going from Textacanda to a little ross where
ted Cruise is from. Sorry, Billy, Billy, how dairy it? Well,
this does go to the top, so maybe he's involved. Okay,
the train is over a mile long. It's traveling at
speeds around fifty miles for hour.

Speaker 1 (01:20:54):
Blah blah blah.

Speaker 3 (01:20:55):
The train starts to approach Bryant to like go through
the little town there.

Speaker 2 (01:21:00):
An engineer, Stephen Schroyer, notices something on the tracks ahead,
as do the a couple other workers on the train,
and oh my god, this guy gets Stephen guy gets
interviewed in the original episode of and he's just like
breaks your heart.

Speaker 1 (01:21:18):
He's just like salt of the earth, good guy, and
it's completely ripped him apart. Yeah, I mean yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:21:24):
So at first they think what they see on the tracks,
laying on the tracks is an animal, but in what
but they noticed in horror that in actuality they see
two teenage boys or like young boys, they think, laying
motionless on the tracks. They're laying parallel, with their heads
on one rail, their body across the tracks, and their
feet towards the other rail, so like across the tracks

(01:21:47):
like a robber would do. Yeah, And they know that
the boy's lower bodies appear to be covered by a
light green tarp, and that beside them was the rifle,
also parallel laying on the tracks. So the stude Stephen Schroyer,
who's like a fucking veteran train dude. He frantically blows
the loud diesel horn as he pulls the emergency brake,
even though he knows there's not enough time for the

(01:22:08):
train to stop. He's hoping that they'll move, but the
train dudes feel the impact as a train hits and
proceeds to run over the bodies of the boys on
the tracks, which the horror. You know, it's like sometimes
I think about the people who like commit suicide by
parking on the track, and you just don't think about
the people who are on the train who you are

(01:22:28):
going to scar for the.

Speaker 1 (01:22:29):
Rest of your life. That's not that this well no,
it's not the same, but also that idea that you
would know. It's almost like if they hadn't looked, then
they would have hit, and then it wouldn't have been
as traumatized.

Speaker 3 (01:22:43):
Right, But to know it, to try to prevent see
it happening to Yeah, but it's horrible.

Speaker 1 (01:22:48):
It doesn't matter how you slice it. It's horrible. Well
it is.

Speaker 2 (01:22:51):
You know, you're right, the police are seeing radius the
police from the train and when the dispatcher says, have
you got any injuries. Stephen Schroyer says, know we've got death,
which I think is the most chilling thing I've ever heard.
So once the train comes to a stop, the crew
they exit to view the carnage, just to see what
the fuck's going on. They had had experience hitting animals

(01:23:11):
in their years as train dues. None of them had
ever hit a human, but they knew to expect a
lot of gore, but they were surprised by what they found.
So they were also avid hunters as well as having
hit animals before on the tracks, and they all knew
that fresh kill had bright red, free flowing blood.

Speaker 3 (01:23:30):
The blood from the boys was purple in color.

Speaker 2 (01:23:33):
It was thick and oozing, indicating that the boys had
already been dead for some time before the train had
hit them. By four forty am, the local and state
police had arrived at the scene and they began investigating.
As the train dudes explained to Seline County Sheriff's deputies
on the scene about the curious lack of blood present,
meaning to them that the boys had already been dead.

(01:23:54):
And add to that the observation of the train dudes
and this part's fucking crazy, as they had approached the
bodies on the train in the speeding train, blowing the
horn like fucking mad, The fucking rails are shaking, the
train coming towards them. Neither of the boys on the
tracks flinched ormoved a muscle something that one would think
would be human nature when a speeding train is coming

(01:24:14):
towards you, even if you intend to get run over.
So like if you're laying there to kill yourself, you're
still going to you know, roll into a ball or
just something.

Speaker 1 (01:24:24):
Right, And even say maybe one of the theories is like,
oh they got super drunk or fucked up and passed out.
Oh the fuck up? But I mean, wouldn't a speeding
train wake you up even if, like, even if you
were super drunk.

Speaker 2 (01:24:35):
But yeah, one hundred percent, they were, like they didn't
even flinch, right, So, but the scene was immediately treated
as a suicide or traffic accident scene by the sheriff,
despite the info pointing to foul play. This means that
the scene wasn't properly secured, evidence wasn't properly collected. In fact,
the next train that was like waiting to come, they

(01:24:57):
fucking let them come through the scene and cloud through
the crime scene on suaity to his next excavation.

Speaker 1 (01:25:02):
They were like, go ahead, go through.

Speaker 2 (01:25:04):
Yeah, And even the paramedics were skeptical of the handling
of the scene as an accident, and they actually attached
a note on their report noting that the condition of
the boy's body when they found them suggested that they
had been dead long before they were stuck by the train.
So they were like, fuck this shit and put a
little like we really tricked this shit out.

Speaker 1 (01:25:22):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:25:22):
Oh good. So let's cut back to Don and Kevin.

Speaker 2 (01:25:26):
When they hadn't come home that morning, Don's father, Curtis,
began to worry and notified Kevin's mother, Linda ives. Eventually,
late that morning, Curtis, here's a rumor from a neighbor.
So there's this rumor already going around town that two
teenage boys had been shot and tied to the railroad tracks.

Speaker 1 (01:25:42):
That's the rumor going around.

Speaker 2 (01:25:44):
Oh and it wasn't long before the police show up
and the clothes the boys had left the night before
in were ideas and ones that Don and Kevin had
been wearing, and that the boys on the tracks had
been wearing, thus confirming the deaths of Don Henry and
Kevin ives, which is so fucking awful. So shortly after
the medical report was released by the state medical examiner,

(01:26:07):
this fucking dickhead named doctor Fammy Malick. He's an Egyptian
born physician, and he rules the deaths an accident. In
his report, he states that at the time of the accident,
the boys were quote unconscious and in a deep sleep
on the railroad tracks under psychedelic influence of THC marijuana

(01:26:29):
when a train passed over them, causing their accidental death.
He explained that the boys had smoked the equalane of
twenty marijuana cigarettes. Impossible. Have you ever passed out from
cigarette from marijuana? And have you ever smoked twenty joints?

Speaker 1 (01:26:43):
Well? And also in what that was like four or
five hours for yeah, maybe four hours or so, like yeah,
so I mean even fucking ten hours five joined, yes, yeah,
But still back to my thing of even if you
were stone to the bone and like couldn't move, yeah,
flinching if a speeding train is coming, Yeah, you don't.

Speaker 2 (01:27:03):
You don't go into a komal like state on pot,
especially fucking nineteen eighties Arkansas shwag.

Speaker 3 (01:27:09):
Come on, right, half that shit was a ragano.

Speaker 2 (01:27:13):
It was fucking oregano stems and seeds and maybe a
teeny tiny bit of shwag.

Speaker 3 (01:27:17):
That's so, it's so frustrating.

Speaker 1 (01:27:20):
It's like anytime we talk about crimes that happened before
nineteen ninety five, it's like we're talking about it's the
turn of the sent totally. It's nuts. It's nuts, it
gets nuts r Okay, okay, d d D. The families
of Don and Kevin are like normal fucking people, So like,
you've got to be fucking kidding me, dude, what the fuck?
So knowing that the boys, they weren't big pot smokers,

(01:27:40):
they weren't bad kids, although a diing bag was found
in one of the pockets of the boy's clothes, but
after their return to the parents, which means they didn't
really check the pockets at all. So like, the boys
maybe bought a little bit of pot and smoke some pot,
but they weren't fucking drug you know, dealers or anything. Hey, listen,
Bill Clinton smoke pot. He didn't, but he was around it. Wait,

(01:28:02):
that's foreshadowing. What really? Yeah?

Speaker 3 (01:28:04):
Oh shit, dude, you gave me the chills. Just now, okay, okay.
Irish psychic so.

Speaker 2 (01:28:10):
So the friends who had been in a fucking parking
lot with them earlier said that they had enough pot
for maybe a joint or two, like a fucking diying bag.
But the parents were like, there's no fucking way they
would have fallen as up on the tracks and not
heard the train coming, Like everyone who's listening to this
right now is saying, right okay. Plus, weird things start
of popping up that made the families lose faith in

(01:28:32):
the aptitude of doctor Malick.

Speaker 1 (01:28:34):
The dude sucks.

Speaker 2 (01:28:35):
First of all, of course, the town goes nuts like
over this thing and wants to be looky lose, goes
down to the train tracks to look around for shit
like normal people, and a family member one of the
boys finds on the tracks a shoe with a foot
in it from one of the boys, like two or
three days after the accident, and the fucking autopsy had

(01:28:57):
already been fucking like done, and nope, he didn't mention
that there's a goddamn foot missing. What the fuck exactly
the autopsy. So they also told the crew. They told
the train crew, who has no stake in this whatsoever.
They're just telling it as they see it. The cops

(01:29:17):
tell the crew that they although they had said they
observed a green tarp over the lower half of the boys'
bodies right before running them over, the chart must have
been an optical illusion because it didn't exist.

Speaker 3 (01:29:27):
Oh guys, that's not the option.

Speaker 1 (01:29:31):
You have to look for it, or you can't just
hide it because it belongs to someone, you know. Yeah,
it says like the name of whoever my mind. That's
the first thing. The first thing is conspiracy. Conspiracy? What's
hidden in those woods? Those boys?

Speaker 3 (01:29:46):
But is it a conspiracy?

Speaker 2 (01:29:48):
Okay, okay, it's that thing of like if you're being paranoid,
make sure no one's following that person first kind of
a thing. Yeah, you know, you know that old stake,
You know that one I love that I watch on
Ancient Aliens all the time, and like a bunch of
other shit that I don't have four episodes to tell you,
like True Crime Garage does.

Speaker 1 (01:30:06):
I'm going to listen to True Crime Garage Do it too?
Is good because there's nothing better than the details, and
like suit the super mysteries.

Speaker 2 (01:30:14):
And there's I have a bunch of references to tell
you about to watch too. Okay, to listen to read too. Okay,
So for five months, Kevin and Don's parents who are
fucking bad asses and not letting like not letting this
shit go. They're normal, fucking working class people and they're
like up against the fucking government.

Speaker 1 (01:30:31):
Yeah, but they do not let this go.

Speaker 2 (01:30:33):
They try unsuccessfully to get the case reinvestigated, and nobody
will listen to them. So fed the fuck up, they
go to the goddamn fucking media because they're like, you know,
who's going to listen to us when.

Speaker 1 (01:30:42):
We yell at you over the media? Very smart, that's right.

Speaker 2 (01:30:46):
The plan works because the next day after they do
this like press conference calling everyone out of their bullshit,
the case is officially reopened finally, and Prosecutor Richard Garrett
had the boys. Uh, he's assigned the case. He has
the boys exhumed for another autopsy. This leads to a
creation of the grand jury that was led by an

(01:31:06):
attorney named none other than Dan Harmon of Rick and
Morty fame. No, what if that was his first career,
No it is.

Speaker 3 (01:31:14):
His name is California. To get away from all that.
His name is Dan Harmon, which is confused, is weird?

Speaker 1 (01:31:19):
Yeah, it's true. So that's got to be weird.

Speaker 2 (01:31:21):
When you google Dan Harmon and you're like, wait, what wait,
So he's a friend of the prosecutor, Richard. Richard Garrett
had been in the mix with the family from the
very beginning. He was an advocate for the boys families.
He was like, what can I do for you?

Speaker 1 (01:31:34):
Free of charge?

Speaker 2 (01:31:36):
He volunteered to them before requesting that the judge who's
presiding over the grand jury appoint him special prosecutor to
supervise the investigation over the debts, because he's like, I
want this to be fucking solid.

Speaker 1 (01:31:47):
I'm in on this. Let's do this.

Speaker 2 (01:31:49):
So a new outside pathologist who's like doctor Malick is
kind of stupid, concludes that the boys had that on
the record, it's a quote, a direct quote, says that
the boys had only smoked between one and three marijuana cigarettes.
After doing the tests, they found that Don Henry's shirt
had tears on the back of it that were consistent
with a sharp object like a knife. Not like how

(01:32:12):
it's so amazing how good these people are at their
job that they can be like this is a rip
and this is a fucking like direct stab wound that
it's like they can tell. So they find that in
his shirt and on his body they match up. So
like if he had been if it had been from
the train, like his shirt would have been pulled up.
But it matched you know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (01:32:30):
Yes, it was matching of a knife going in right, yeah, beforehand,
And like the blood matched someone being alive, not someone
being dead beforehand.

Speaker 2 (01:32:39):
So, and injuries and bruises on Kevin's face were consistent
with a hit from the butt.

Speaker 3 (01:32:44):
Of a rifle or another blunt object. So this is
fucking pre mortem.

Speaker 2 (01:32:48):
So in grand jury testimony, the lead pathologists said that
the boys quote were either incapacitated, knocked unconscious, possibly even killed,
their bodies placed on the.

Speaker 3 (01:32:58):
Tracks, and the train overran their bodies.

Speaker 2 (01:33:02):
So in nineteen eighty eight, the grand jury reversed the
ruling of accional death and ruled the deaths to be
probable homicides.

Speaker 3 (01:33:08):
Okay, great, it's awesome movement forward one, here we go.

Speaker 2 (01:33:12):
But even then, doctor Malick has said that he said
that he didn't believe anybody quote laid a finger on
those boys.

Speaker 1 (01:33:18):
Like.

Speaker 2 (01:33:18):
He refused to believe it. He wouldn't give over a
bunch of like evidence. He wouldn't give over shit. He
was just like fighting at tooth and nail.

Speaker 1 (01:33:26):
Now, here's the thing, and this is a time where
you know, this is when doctors made a shit ton
of money and they were like the end all be
all of knowledge, of all knowledge. Sure, and and part
of that it's like Alec Baldwin in that movie where
he's like, I'm not at playing God, I am God.

Speaker 3 (01:33:43):
Where they really that's part of it, Serty Rock. Yeah,
I love that movie.

Speaker 1 (01:33:49):
Get One. But I think now the part of the
advancements I think of like minology, I guess to be
this dumb and brad that's it sounds. It's just essentially
people going I don't know, but I'm trying to put
the story together. Yeah, not that you have to come
in and be the final word expert, because that's just

(01:34:12):
a setup to be wrong.

Speaker 2 (01:34:13):
What are people saying I want a second opinion and
the doctor not being like fuck you right, It's just like, yo, you.

Speaker 1 (01:34:19):
Should get a second opinion because what we should want
here is the truth and the solution, not me to
win some game that that's not really what happened. That's right.

Speaker 2 (01:34:28):
And doctor Malick was like one hundred percent on board.
Let me tell you some more information. Okay, Okay, this
is where we get into the like, here are the facts.
Let's get into the fucking deep die of mother. This
is the beginning of it. So his controversial ruling, all right.
So this thing about Malick is he had this controversial
ruling in the case of a patient's So there's this
patient who died in a hospital and the woman who

(01:34:54):
was facing legal issues was at the nurse anesthesiologist, no,
an aesthetist.

Speaker 1 (01:35:05):
That's a hard one. It is a hard okay.

Speaker 2 (01:35:07):
She was a woman named Virginia Kelly, and he helped
her in the in the case of a patient's death,
helped her avoid legal issues while she was already facing
negligence and malpractice charges. So he helped get her off
by like writing these like, you know, fudging it a little,
judging it a little bit. Does the name Virginia Kelly
sound familiar Carrie Angelo of death.

Speaker 1 (01:35:28):
Nope.

Speaker 2 (01:35:29):
She is the mother of the man who, during the
time of this case, the grand jury case. She's the
mother of the fucking governor of Arkansas, Bill fucking Clinton.

Speaker 1 (01:35:42):
What wait what huh?

Speaker 3 (01:35:46):
Bill was accused of malpractice.

Speaker 1 (01:35:50):
She twice Listen, I am a fucking liberal ast fuck.
Why why do you think that I believe a thing
a politician says either side? Oh no, no, yeah, yeah,
this isn't political, this is fucking politicianal I think. Also,
if we've learned anything in the past two years is
that pretty much anyone involved in the government is crooked,

(01:36:12):
a shit, a lie, lie or who mandalized.

Speaker 3 (01:36:14):
We were all being alled to just endless. And if
you've only learned in the past two years, then welcome
to the fucking parade.

Speaker 1 (01:36:21):
Thank you.

Speaker 3 (01:36:21):
I'm glad to finally be here. But Karen was just
believing all of it.

Speaker 1 (01:36:26):
Damn.

Speaker 3 (01:36:27):
I really wanted that to not be Bill Clinton's mouth.

Speaker 1 (01:36:30):
I know, I know, I know, I know. But also,
if you have more than one male practice, yeah, sorry,
we can't afford it. Like no, the average person.

Speaker 2 (01:36:41):
I mean, okay, so there is I want to really
quickly say that there is a book and like you
can't get all this, you can't get all the deep
dives and all of this in any of the like articles,
and there's like videos and documentaries and shit. You have
to read The Boys on the Tracks by this woman
Namedmara Leverett. She like gets into all of this, which
I have to read I haven't read it yet, but

(01:37:02):
like it's like about the case and like what malpractice
suits there were and what happened, which I've read about,
and they're bananas, all bananas.

Speaker 1 (01:37:09):
Okay, great, we just don't have time.

Speaker 2 (01:37:12):
Blah blah blah. So Bill fucking Clinton, he so this
doctor Malick reversed. He's fucking charges against Bill Clinton's mom.
He's the governor of Arkansas. Okay, so maybe that The
Boys on the Tracks was his first Malix's first fuck up, right,
like the first thing that he like ruled incorrectly. Okay, Well,
over his career, his rulings and testimonies became problematic in

(01:37:34):
more than twenty additional deaths.

Speaker 3 (01:37:37):
No, so he's the angel of death, but just post mortem,
right exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:37:43):
There are multiple instances showing that Malick testified erroneously in
criminal cases, that his rulings were reversed by juries, and
that outside pathologists challenged his findings. And my god, you
need to read about it because it's bananas. I'll give
you two fucking really great examples.

Speaker 1 (01:37:57):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:37:58):
One case from my teeny five, a man was found, uh,
shot dead in his yard. Malick ruled the death of suicide.
But this dude had been shot five times in the chest.

Speaker 1 (01:38:07):
Come on. In another case, a man was sound dead
in his home and Malick attributed his death to an ulcer. Okay,
but the dead man had been decapitated. Okay, listen to me.
No no, no, no, no, hold up and tell you
before you listen to me. Hold up, because there's more.
When Malick was questioning.

Speaker 3 (01:38:25):
About this, before you listen to me, Malick said that
the man's the man had.

Speaker 2 (01:38:32):
Been sitting in dead in his house for a while,
and that the dog had chewed through his neck and
chewed his head off. What and that's how he got decapitated,
even though it was a clean fucking slice, And there
led to the testimony led to a murder, the murder
lead suspect going free.

Speaker 1 (01:38:47):
Sir, what is your what is your damage? Serious?

Speaker 3 (01:38:52):
May I ask the eternal eighties question?

Speaker 1 (01:38:54):
What is your Dammit?

Speaker 3 (01:38:55):
You're really gonna ask this?

Speaker 1 (01:38:56):
Yes? What the fuck? Dude? One hundred? This immediately makes
me think of that bloods better expert in the staircase.

Speaker 3 (01:39:05):
We're just like how he got away with that multiple times?
And it's this sort thing of like wait, he believes himself.

Speaker 2 (01:39:12):
That's like that that's the scariest thing of someone who
like is clearly full of shit or lying or wrong
and believes themselves.

Speaker 3 (01:39:20):
Yes, that's the scariest thing. Yeah, it's easy to get
carried away with like what knowing things means about you?

Speaker 1 (01:39:27):
Right?

Speaker 2 (01:39:27):
Well, the families tried to like argue, like argue with
doctor Malka initially of like this, how can you think,
like tried to reason with him. Doctor Malack got pissed off,
pulled out the fucking autopsy photos of their children and
tried to show the families these photos, sir and one
of the fucking police officers how to like be like,
don't fucking do that, dude, Like.

Speaker 1 (01:39:48):
This guy's very problematic. Okay, five times in the chest. Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:39:53):
When Governor Bill Clinton was asked to comment about doctor
Malix's bullshit, he praised doctor mallie work and stated that
the mistakes came from being overworked and underpaid. So doctor
Mallick had clearly fucked up the case of Don and Kevin,
which Karen, you and I would think would leave to
a slap on the wrist or something, right, Sure, we
would think.

Speaker 1 (01:40:12):
Yeah, but no.

Speaker 2 (01:40:14):
Two months after the grand jury ruling about the probable murder.
Clinton sent a proposal asking to raise Malick's salary by
forty one point five percent.

Speaker 1 (01:40:22):
Right, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's that's pretty unforgivable exactly. So
here's just a great sign note that I thought you
would like at a hearing about this pay raise. Two
months later, Linda Ives, Kevin's mother, and other Malick haters
formed an organization to stop this from happening. It was
called Victims of Malick's Incredible Testimony and the acronym vomit.

(01:40:48):
What's her name Linda ives hell? Yes, Linda ives vomit, vomit.
How great is that? Well? Also, just how disgusting this
is like to watch somebody not only not hell you
that it's their job and it's what their duty is.
There's like their sworn oath is to help you and
use their knowledge to protect you and help you in whatever,

(01:41:10):
and this person is doing exactly the opposite, being terrible
at it and then getting a raise for it.

Speaker 2 (01:41:16):
That's just praised by like the higher up that you
would go to to point out the problem, because because
he's done a favor for that higher up, right, well, yeah,
allegedly allegedly allegedly allegedly who knows. Okay, I know, Okay,
all right, vote Ross Perot. All right, Okay, this has

(01:41:37):
been fun. Let's leave Malick behind. Okay, he sucks, we
hate him. But let's dive into a different fucking well.

Speaker 1 (01:41:45):
Well, Cole, let's go to dive and do a different
well like the girl from the Ring, Yes, and come
out with a long black, wet hair and then wet nightcount.

Speaker 2 (01:41:56):
You will and it says I'm fucking married you. I'm
all right, here we go, okay, clear, yeah, this is
a new part.

Speaker 1 (01:42:05):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:42:05):
So there's a police report filed seven months after the
deaths of Don and Kevin. That right reads quote confidential
informant states that she has been told that the area
the two boys died in is a.

Speaker 3 (01:42:18):
Drop zone for dope. All right, Okay, here we go.

Speaker 2 (01:42:23):
So, in the years that surrounded the death of the boys,
residents near the tiny town of the tiny Mina Municipal
Airport in western Arkansas. It's about two hours from Bryant,
where the boys lived. Mina Ammyna. The residents had complained
about low flying aircraft late at night.

Speaker 1 (01:42:44):
Okay, here we go.

Speaker 2 (01:42:46):
It turns out that Mina was a drug running hub
in the eighties and early nineties and was ware and
this is like this isn't conspiracy, is this is like no, yeah,
like you know prevent Yes, that uh, like solid testimony
that this is a thing that this dude named Barry Seal,

(01:43:07):
who was a cocaine smuggling kingpin, operated out of the
Mina Airport.

Speaker 1 (01:43:12):
Which is like this tiny air It makes perfect sense though,
because you're not going to be bringing it into you know.

Speaker 3 (01:43:18):
Yeah, he's got these little he's got a little cessna.

Speaker 1 (01:43:20):
I don't know, is that a thing? Sure? And yeah,
it's like a little small place you drop the drugs.
You fucking go back over to the tiny town. You
pay off people who see stuff and get paid off,
pay everybody.

Speaker 2 (01:43:30):
Yeah, ok, exactly, So real quick, this about Berry Seal,
which a like separate, deep fucking dive into this dude.
He's amazing, amazingly, awful, fascinating.

Speaker 1 (01:43:40):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:43:41):
So at the point of the boy's death, he had
already been assassinated by Colombians, so he's not involved in
the murders.

Speaker 1 (01:43:48):
It was his setup though, Yeah right.

Speaker 2 (01:43:50):
So initially he was hired by the DEA to fly
a small his small plane over the Low over the
over Central American countries taking photos of rebels, so that
Dea was like, take photos, proved that like this drug
smuggling cartel shit's going on. But then he became a
double agent and began working with a median cartel and
smuggling drugs. So he will go take the photos for

(01:44:12):
the de A fucking load his car up with sucking
drugs later days back over the perfect setup, perfect setup.
I think he eventually became a triple agent and like
fucking rated on the cartel.

Speaker 1 (01:44:25):
Sure he did. This guy was had no you know,
no honor none. What a perfect hiding place is like
in the DEA's pocket exactly. It's almost like out of sight?
What was that movie? No? Out of site with Jennifer
Low Peasant George. No, let's talk about the one with Glow? No, yes,
what it's similar? What's the he's uh, what's the one from?

(01:44:49):
Oh Jesus Ben? What's the other one? Oh? Forget edit
that out.

Speaker 2 (01:44:56):
It's terrible, But the guessing's fun. It is this fun
for anyone? What's Casey Affleck's like original partner's name. I
have to go from the very beginning partner that Afflecks
original partner's name Matt Damon, Right, okay.

Speaker 1 (01:45:10):
So, oh you mean that this Scorsese movie where it's
the drug the drug, Yes, the agent Leonardo DiCaprio. Yes,
Oh it's not Matt damin Yes, no, Matt Demon's in
it too, okay, and so is marky Mark. What is it? Then?
The Departed?

Speaker 4 (01:45:28):
That's the Departed?

Speaker 1 (01:45:29):
It is the Departed. I'm thinking of something else. I
was gonna say the Uninhibited. I'm not joking.

Speaker 3 (01:45:36):
Some of the best content we've created. Oh my god,
leave it all in. It's so glorious.

Speaker 1 (01:45:43):
Edit casey affliction. Okay, leave that in. Okay, Please goes
to rent The Uninhibited a red red box near you.
Where are your pajama? Where are your pajamas? The Uninhibited
is the porn version of The Departed. Cash me if
you can what you're trying to think? Okay? Yes, no,

(01:46:10):
back hurts from laughing. Do you think Leonardo DiCaprio was
Matt Damon or you were just trying to get there?

Speaker 2 (01:46:17):
I wouldn't be surprised if I confused the two, but
I think I was trying to go Matt Damon, got it?

Speaker 1 (01:46:21):
Okay? Who that was awesome?

Speaker 3 (01:46:24):
Anyways?

Speaker 1 (01:46:28):
For extra cash.

Speaker 2 (01:46:29):
Okay, But of course the high ups in the government
like and it was like the FBI, the CIA, all
the DEA. They all knew about Barry Seal being this,
you know, undercover agent, and they also knew secretly that
he was a double agent bringing drugs back, but they
looked the other way for personal gain and they were like, well,
he's doing us some favors. It's like the Iron Contra

(01:46:51):
fucking times, like they needed him time, everyone could do
whatever the fuck they wanted. And actually there's a movie
starring and I wrote this down so I won't forget
starring Tom Cruise. It came out like a year or
two ago.

Speaker 1 (01:47:01):
Risky business, Yes, and that's secretly about No, it's called
American Maid and it's about Barry Seals. Ohkal, did you
see that? No, but I swing the planes. There's a
cute blonde wife.

Speaker 3 (01:47:14):
I didn't see that one.

Speaker 1 (01:47:16):
But there was also a movie that I feel like
is a similar plot that had Matthew uh McConaughey and
he was the pilot.

Speaker 3 (01:47:26):
Oh sorry, that was about gold, not drugs.

Speaker 2 (01:47:28):
There's one that was made in ninety one that was
like one of the old timers, like but this is
you know before.

Speaker 1 (01:47:34):
One of the old timers like a Barrymore John Barrymore
starring John Berrymer.

Speaker 3 (01:47:39):
Lionel Barrymore and his brother John.

Speaker 2 (01:47:42):
Okay, so the drugs are brought in from South America
to crazy these like hangars at these like small municipal airports,
and that one of them was the tiny Mina Municipal airport.
But local authorities who like weren't in on the tape
were so like noticing it, so they put up like
lights and kind of like made it so that it
wasn't as easy for them. So instead of landing at

(01:48:03):
the airport, they started dropping small parcels of drugs across
the state and surrounding states from planes like they fucking
made their cessnas have fucking doors and shit. Okay, So
one of these drop sites was supposedly in a clearing
near the tracks where the boys were found. So I

(01:48:24):
remember the boys went out like fucking hunting and shit spotlighting.

Speaker 1 (01:48:27):
Do you mind if I say one theory that I
have FUCKTIVI just based on the information you've told me
so far, they were out in those woods to do
their stun hunting or whatever it's called. And there was
cops out in those woods trying to find people at
the drop off, and they killed those boys accidentally and
then tried to set it up themselves. Incorrect. Dang it, well,
I just want to throw it out.

Speaker 3 (01:48:47):
Incorrect. It gets worse, dude than that.

Speaker 1 (01:48:50):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:48:51):
So, in the years following the murder of Donning Kevin,
a few different eyewitnesses start to come forward, slowly, like
in the early nineties, and when combined, those stories tell
the story of what happened that night.

Speaker 1 (01:49:03):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:49:03):
The first the person came forward was a kid named
Tommy Nighthouse. At the time of the murderers, he's around
twelve years old, but he's about nineteen when he comes
forward finally, or some eighteen, I don't know. He says
that the knight of the murders, he was with some
friends in the woods by the tracks, and they spotted
from the woods and like some bushes they're hiding, and

(01:49:25):
they spot a group of men, a couple men on
the tracks, and they're hiding the bushes, and they witness
two boys, Kevin and Donn, approaching the men along the tracks,
carrying their rifles, just going along doing their fucking thing.
And when Kevin and Don saw the group of men
on the tracks further ahead of them. The boys hesitate
and then start to turn to go around the other way,
but they're called by one of the men to come

(01:49:46):
towards them. And when Kevin and Don hesitated, according to Tommy,
a shot is fired and they don't know if it's
from Don's gun or like, you know, a warning shot something.
Whatever happen depends Kevin and down take the fuck off. Yeah, Tommy,
this kid recognizes one.

Speaker 1 (01:50:07):
Of the men on the tracks because his mom is
dating him, so he's like one hundred percent sure it's him.
The man is Prosecutor Dan Harmon. What goes back?

Speaker 2 (01:50:19):
I remember the dude who was in charge of the
grand fucking knew who was saying take care of this.
Uh huh, saying put me on this case. I'm going
to fucking exum the bodies and depose these fucking people.
What it's Dan fucking Harmon?

Speaker 1 (01:50:31):
What m hmm? Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:50:33):
After coming forward, Tommy passes polygraph tests, he's put into
protective custody. He gives video statements of what he witnessed
the night of Kevin and Don's murders, meaning he's a
fucking reliable witness.

Speaker 1 (01:50:43):
Yeah, the boys.

Speaker 2 (01:50:45):
So the story goes on that the boys, based on
witness testimony, ran into their friend named Keith Coney, who
gave him a lift on his motorcycle to the local
grocery store to a payphone located there. So the next
part of the story that was observed that a witness
I was observed by a man named Ronnie Goodwin who
told state police that he was driving by when he

(01:51:06):
saw two boys in the parking lot of the grocery store.

Speaker 1 (01:51:09):
And when and then.

Speaker 2 (01:51:12):
Two officers showed up and they're unmarked but recognizable that
it was a cop car because of the fucking antennas
and shit, they show up their cruiser to the boys. Yeah,
Ronnie drives past, pulls into another lot and witnesses the
officers beating the two boys, including one of the officers
hitting one of the boys with the butt end of
a rifle and then throwing them into the back of

(01:51:33):
the cruiser and heading.

Speaker 3 (01:51:34):
Towards a dirt road that leads to the tracks.

Speaker 2 (01:51:37):
And this is probably before the grand jury testimonies like
the hat happened is available, So getting hit in the
face with a butt of a fucking rifle isn't something
that was like probably well known.

Speaker 1 (01:51:48):
Right, And it's incredibly specific and at leaves as you
said that very specific, like wound and marked exactly, which
I'm sure old Ronnie Goodwin like, who knows, he could
have been the prince of the high school. He could
have been the guy that hangs out in the grocery
store working lot. But all of a sudden, that's somebody
that has a true fact that like can't line operated exactly,

(01:52:10):
which must be bone chilling to whoever the nineties cop
is that's starting to like listen.

Speaker 3 (01:52:16):
To these stories, Dan Harmon, Oh you mean the good one,
not the bad one?

Speaker 1 (01:52:20):
Whoever? Right there? Whatever's there was ever the detective going, yeah, take,
I'll take your statement on this old murder. Well, let
me tell you about that. Okay, sorry, they're all in there.

Speaker 2 (01:52:28):
It's just so crazy, Okay. So eventually, and you'll read
about it in The Boys on the Tracks. There's three
witnesses that eventually come forward to corroborate the grocery store story.

Speaker 1 (01:52:38):
Two of them.

Speaker 2 (01:52:39):
Two of those witnesses are murdered when they were called
to testify about this in the new grand jury hearing.
There's a new grand jury hearing. Eventually that comes together
and two of these guys are murdered. What uh huh,
I'll tell you about it in a minute. The next
witness to come forward is a woman named Okay, this
fucking woman, I mean love her for ever. Her name

(01:53:00):
is Charlene Wilson, and she's basically like the ninth like
what you would have done in the eighties, which is,
look if you looked fucking hot, and you're like, I'm
going to date everyone and do drugs and have the
most fun of my own. Oh yes, And she's this
fucking gal and she's just having a blast. She's doing
whatever she's fucking around. Charlene and we Wilson had kind

(01:53:22):
of had to come to Jesus moment, and she gave
secret testimony to the federal investigation, including a videotape confession
as well as a four page confession letter signed in
front of three local office officials in May ninety three.
So once this stuck was over, she had this like
I'm not going to do this shit anymore, be sure.
So in ninety three she comes forward with her story.
So at the time of the Boys on the Tracks murders,

(01:53:46):
Charlene was dating Dan Harmon, and she claimed that she
had been on the tracks that night with Harmon and
a guy named Keith mccaskell who's a meth dealer and
known police informant, and a couple other people, including two
fucking local cops, for a drug drop. So you saying
that the cops accidentally shot them, No, the cops were

(01:54:08):
fucking in on it. The cops weren't there to fucking
be muscle for Dan Harmon and this drug drop because
and they were there because she told them in the
summer of nineteen eighty seven, So like before, right before
this happened that summer, one of the drugs drops disappeared,
so they think that fucking local kids grabbed the drugs,

(01:54:30):
and fucking.

Speaker 1 (01:54:30):
R they did. It's a bag of coat, I mean yeah,
it's a big duffel bag filled with a million dollars coats.

Speaker 2 (01:54:38):
So many parties on parking lot at the grocery still exactly.
So Dan Harmon, who's like on the who's like the
fucking king bin of this, is fucking pissed off. So
he brings out some of his men to watch the
delivery on the night that Kevin and fucking Donn are
walking by, Oh fuck, and uh, they're expecting a delivery
of three to four pounds of cocaine and five pounds
of weed. And Charlene was supposed to to make the

(01:55:00):
pick up that night, but she had been quote high balling,
which is a mixture of cocaine and crystal meth.

Speaker 3 (01:55:05):
Girl was totally quote strung out.

Speaker 1 (01:55:08):
Yeah you were.

Speaker 3 (01:55:09):
That's such a crazy combination.

Speaker 1 (01:55:12):
That's like when you get a just a red eye
and you put a shot of espresso into coffee, where
it's just like, don't pick a lane, you don't And
there's an So there's this really great not great, it's
this great.

Speaker 2 (01:55:25):
It tells you a lot of documentary called Obstruction of Justice,
The Mean Connection, which is on YouTube and you and
she's interviewed in it, and this fucking she's like she's
not in heavy metal parking lot because she's fucking backstage with.

Speaker 1 (01:55:38):
The band, like she's the best. And she probably got clean,
she probably got sober, and then her and she was
just like kept telling her sponsor like sorry, go.

Speaker 2 (01:55:48):
Ahead, no, you're on the right track. Except that's the
sliding glass door. The sliding door theory. Oh okay, you're right.
So she's supposed to make the pick up high balling.
They told her to wait in the car while they
go to the drug like to pick it up, and
she did until she saw the little kid Tommy you
remember him running from the gunshot thing. Whatever, it's a

(01:56:11):
little cloudy, Okay. She gets out of the car. She
goes over to the men who had intercepted a group
of boys at the drop site, which is fucking Tommy
and Don and maybe their friend Keith right the motorcycle
and who maybe got away. So, according to Charlene, some
of them had managed to get away, maybe Keith, but
Kevin and Don were captured, and when she got there,

(01:56:33):
Dan Harmon's men interrogated them as they were lying on
the ground, face down, hands tied behind their back, and
they were kicked and beaten and finally executed. Fuck So
Charlene's like, this is the story. She knows it for
a fact. Yeah, there's more too, Like, just fucking read it.
So the group of men led by Dan Harmon then

(01:56:54):
loaded the rest of the drug drop into the car.
They wrapped Kevin and Down up in a tarp from
Wilson's car and put them in the trunk of the
car and then they moved quote, they moved up the
track a little ways and removed the boys and laid
them across the tracks. And according to Charlene, she says
at that point she freaked out and started running away

(01:57:14):
from the scene. She's like, I'm on meth and coke
and you just fucking killed a bunch of people, like
killed two teenage boys.

Speaker 1 (01:57:20):
Let me imagine also, but just I understand that it's
just drug use, since she it probably was like by
that point that was just like standard fair for her.
But if you have to go do something as stressful
is like a drug drop. Yeah, how how are you
on white drugs? Anyway?

Speaker 3 (01:57:34):
And then like, of course something horrible happens.

Speaker 1 (01:57:37):
I mean, it's the answer to a lot of things.

Speaker 3 (01:57:39):
Where it was the eighties, Yes, that's right, that was
the eighties. Didn't know meth was bad for us back then.

Speaker 1 (01:57:45):
We thought it was. It was given to us as
a diet pill. It was a fun bump just to
get you past that midnight era. You know, I've called
them there.

Speaker 3 (01:57:56):
Oh this is besides, this is just me talking it
out of school.

Speaker 1 (01:58:00):
But she was this shick.

Speaker 2 (01:58:02):
Charlene was also the ex of a man who had
been convicted was a convicted drug felon. His name was
Roger Clinton. Uh oh, he was the half brother of
Bill Clinton. Oh shit, just just on his side.

Speaker 1 (01:58:15):
No, we heard a lot about Roger Clinton and the
Clinton era where he was he was troublemaker. Yeah, they
were like, don't bring him up. Where does this go
to the all the fucking way? Yep, Okay, okay, this
is crazy. I know. Harmon, Dan Harmon.

Speaker 2 (01:58:33):
So then Dan Harmon, there's this new grand jury that
like does convenence to uh fucking figure it out. Dan
Harmon uses that grand jury to find out what he
could about who had informed on him. So he's in
charge of the grand jury and he's calling all these
people and getting all these fucking secret documents to find
out about what they knew about him, which is not
can't see it, can't be legal, seems unfair, and to

(01:58:56):
make it, yeah, and make it appear like they were suspects.
And the purpose was to discredit those witnesses so that
if he ever got arrested and charged with drug charges,
he could say that it was retaliation for this grand
jury trial. So he called everyone he'd ever been in
fucking bed with to be like, no, no, they're just

(01:59:18):
retaliating against me now when he has this drug trial.
It sure, that's in Mara Leverett's book, The Boys in
the Tracks.

Speaker 3 (01:59:25):
Okay, so we're getting their romstone.

Speaker 2 (01:59:28):
So Keith mccaskell, who was the one of the guys
on the tracks that night, who was like the informant
and the meth dealer before the grand jury, they called
him to speak at the grand jury. He gets stabbed
to death in his driveway before he can fucking testify.
Keith Coney, the boy on the fucking motorcycle. He dies

(01:59:49):
in a mysterious motorcycle crash crash just a few months
after don and Kevin had died, and he had refused
to tell authorities what he and saw and he would
only tell his father that quote, it was the cops
who killed Kevin and Donn. So he is on his motorcycle,
the motorcycle crashes. It looks like he's being chased. He

(02:00:11):
maybe had his throat slit before he crashed, But there
was no autopsy. Uh what's it called, you know, requested,
So we don't know what. Yeah, but the dran the
Grand joy did rule conclusively this time not probable homicide,
but definite homicide about Kevin and Down's murder. Eventually, Dan

(02:00:32):
Harmon finds out about our fucking girlfriend's testimony, and so
in nineteen ninety two, Dan Harmon sets her up and
personally busts her for a small amount of drugs plus
weapons charges. He fucking set her up, yeah, He arrests her,
personally hands her the fucking like cuffs her. Arrests her
even though he'd been dating her and like having her

(02:00:53):
as his drug meal.

Speaker 4 (02:00:54):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (02:00:55):
He prosecutes the case against her.

Speaker 2 (02:00:59):
This seems unfair error it's her first drug offense, which
usually is fucking probation, right. He offers her a plea
bargain of one hundred and sixteen years. She says, go
fuck yourself. She gets sentenced to thirty one years in jail.
I can't tell for sure, but I think she's still
fucking there. No, yeah, it's been thirty one years. It's
been like thirty two years. And said it's been thirty years. Yeah,

(02:01:22):
So I don't know where she's It's hard to find her,
which I would do the same thing if I were her,
I would be very.

Speaker 1 (02:01:28):
Hard to find, yes for real.

Speaker 2 (02:01:30):
So when anyone in authority tried to look into the case,
including this woman, another fucking heroine named Jean Duffy. She
gets appointed federal narcotics investigator in town. She's newly appointed
in the nineties. She starts to un she's told like,
don't hate her, like hiring command is like, don't look hey,
just have like welcome to the office, Like, good luck

(02:01:51):
with everything. Here's a fucking cactus or whatever. By the way,
don't look into any drug charges against anyone in our circle,
like anyone in you know, our jurisdiction. Yeah, just don't
look into Just don't do that, Okay, goodbye, enjoy your
fucking ficus.

Speaker 3 (02:02:09):
Which done anybody.

Speaker 1 (02:02:10):
Yeah, A normal would be like, I'm just guess I'm
gonna just look through a couple of these files.

Speaker 2 (02:02:15):
And she's interviewed in this fucking documentary and she's just
like the loveliest nineties haired woman you've ever seen.

Speaker 1 (02:02:21):
Sure so uh she.

Speaker 2 (02:02:25):
So, she's newly appointed in the nineties. She starts to
uncover the cover up of the boy's death. Dan Harmon
fucking loses his shit and starts to go on the attack. Uh,
and she when she realizes he's part of it, he
leaves a smear campaign against this lovely fucking woman with
nineties hair, accusing her of everything from embezzling funds to

(02:02:46):
child abuse, and the paper, the newspapers and the fucking
journalists are like in on it and like anything Dan
Harmon says about her, they'll fucking prince.

Speaker 1 (02:02:54):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:02:55):
So, uh, then he tries to subpoena her to find
out everything she had on, including secret informants, and she's like,
you can't do that.

Speaker 1 (02:03:04):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (02:03:05):
She starts to fear for her fucking life because she
refused to turn a shit over, which is a which
meant she would have gone to prison, and she got
like a secret informant was like, hey, they're going to
kill you in prison. That's their fucking plan. Yeah, so
she goes into fucking hiding. Eventually, after a long shit
she becomes a teacher in Texas, which is like, yeah, dude,
don't don't And.

Speaker 3 (02:03:24):
That nineties hair is like now it's some weirdly fifties hair.

Speaker 1 (02:03:28):
I mean, that's the exact same, but fucking gen duffy,
that poor woman had like a great career as like
a fucking honorable person instead, I.

Speaker 3 (02:03:36):
Mean that's talk about like there's a podcast I want
to listen to.

Speaker 1 (02:03:39):
Yeah, is all the people that went in to like, yes,
those kind of positions with noble intentions and got caught
up in shit like one percent.

Speaker 2 (02:03:46):
And like people quit when she because she got fired
from her job because she couldn't do her job correctly
because Dan Harmon was waging this war against her. So
like five of her informants like uh, you know, not informants,
but they were like cops who.

Speaker 1 (02:03:57):
Were like on her side.

Speaker 3 (02:03:59):
Yeah, they fucking quit.

Speaker 2 (02:04:00):
So those dudes like would have had these incredible jobs
in ladies, all right, so almost I swear. In nineteen
ninety six, Dan Harmon finally gets fucking caught for his shit.
He's convicted of racketeering, conspiracy, extortion, and drug possession with
intent to distribute. He gets ten years, he's released in
nine years, and then he got arrested in drug charges
again in twenty ten. I can't tell, I think he's

(02:04:21):
still in prison, but like everything turns out he was
completely fucking drug kingpin this whole time.

Speaker 1 (02:04:28):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (02:04:29):
Later in the two thousands and on, one of the
police officers who was alleged to have been on the
tracks that night and beaten and taken to the boys
to the tracks this guy named Jay Campbell who had
gotten higher and higher and up. He and his wife
were arrested on many drug charges and sentenced to decades
long terms in jail. So like they're all fucking in

(02:04:49):
on this, Yeah, the families of Kevin and Dawn are
still not receiving cooperation from the Saline County sheriff, who
happens to be a guy named Rodney Wright.

Speaker 1 (02:04:58):
Who is he?

Speaker 3 (02:04:59):
He's fucking Dan Harmon's nephew.

Speaker 1 (02:05:01):
No.

Speaker 2 (02:05:03):
As recently as twenty sixteen, Linda Ives, who has not
fucking given up the fight, has filed suit against multiple
government agencies for refusing to answer her Freedom of Information
and Act requests and for withholding info in regards to
the death. So she's still fucking on this shit. The
governments responded to her suit by asking the court to
dismiss the suit because it's an on because it's an

(02:05:24):
ongoing investigation and the case is still open to this day.
She says it's not a political issue with her because
they were never a political family, but until the Arkansas
political machine reached into their lives and destroyed the tranquility
that they had as a family. Yes, and that's the
fucking boys on the tracks, the fucking tip of the iceberg.

Speaker 1 (02:05:49):
Fuck I mean, dude, But because I have to say
when I saw that on I'm sure it was unsolved mystery.

Speaker 3 (02:05:56):
Yes, where all that stuff where it's just like the weirdest.

Speaker 1 (02:06:03):
It's clearly a setup of trying to make it seem
like boys committed suicide right when they were dead, and
it only worked because everyone was in the pocket of
everyone else. Yeah, And like, when you look at that
as a person who reads a lot of true crime
or whatever, you're like, well, one of the options is
there's a really bizarre serial killer that likes to kill
people and then confuse people, which is like you've never

(02:06:25):
heard of you, Like, it doesn't line up with any
of that.

Speaker 3 (02:06:28):
Yeah, completely lines.

Speaker 1 (02:06:29):
Up with cover up with And I know, like some
people are like, I don't like conspiracy theories, but it's like,
this is the only fucking thing this like makes more
sense than the boys anything.

Speaker 2 (02:06:39):
This isn't this is the thing that oh, like every
little puzzle piece goes in space. It's not a fucking
conspiracy theory. There's proof that all of these people, you know,
they all went to prison later they all were in
each other's pockets. Malik got fucking like fired and promoted
to something else when Bill Clinton became president, like everyone,
and he did fucking h get Bill Clinton's mother out

(02:07:00):
of you know, all this legal bullshit. Yeah, and like
Dan Harmon did fucking what like its proven that he was,
like the judge was in on the take. That's not
a conspiracy.

Speaker 1 (02:07:11):
Well, I mean it's it's actually a true conspiracy theory, right,
It's like there are And that's the thing we're starting
to learn these days more and more is a lot
of conspiracy theorists were right and just because they were
freaked out.

Speaker 3 (02:07:24):
By it or like yeah, you know weird like like
the Wormwood like on Netflix.

Speaker 2 (02:07:30):
It's like, yeah, they it's actually a known fact that
the CIA gave LSD to people who didn't know about
it to see how they would react.

Speaker 1 (02:07:37):
That's not me being like a fucking weirdo conspiracist. That's
that's the truth.

Speaker 3 (02:07:42):
It's simply the truth.

Speaker 1 (02:07:43):
Well, and a lot of people who are like I
don't like conspiracy theories are the kind of people who
are like, I don't know, I also don't like the truth.

Speaker 3 (02:07:49):
I just want something that's not going to rock the
boat or like freak me out.

Speaker 2 (02:07:53):
But they confuse like aliens with the government doing something nefarious.

Speaker 1 (02:07:58):
Also, small town, like we're talking about small town Arkansas. Yeah,
so this is you know, families, relatives, everybody who knows people.
It's all. That's all those relationships are. That's how a
lot of those towns operate. Is like, I'm the sheriff.
Now you're going to be the sheriff when I die.
Every We're going to keep all the secrets exactly where

(02:08:19):
we have them, and nobody mess around.

Speaker 2 (02:08:21):
And like, I mean, honestly, what a great way to
conceal a murder? Yes, so you know the trains coming
at four fucking.

Speaker 1 (02:08:29):
Thirty and still in the dark. How do we hide this? God?

Speaker 2 (02:08:33):
You know, Dan Harmon was high as he was probably
on what is it called the speedball too? Oh yeah,
they take it a little too far and they kill
the boys. What's a great way to fucking hide this?
It's not It's not like it would have worked if
the fucking train conductor had never seen the.

Speaker 1 (02:08:49):
Boys, That's right, that's what they thought was gonna happen,
Or if the medical examiner had been legit and was
like you know, no, this blood is old. They're these
wounds like if the parents had been people who believed
in the government or hadn't.

Speaker 3 (02:09:04):
You know, raised a fuss, and how many did get
away with it?

Speaker 1 (02:09:07):
You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (02:09:08):
Like, how many out there that they're like Lynda Ivers,
wasn't there to fucking scream about it? That's right and
call vomit on everything?

Speaker 1 (02:09:13):
That's right?

Speaker 3 (02:09:14):
Yeah, No, that's amazing and it's horrifying obviously.

Speaker 1 (02:09:18):
Yeah. Crazy, that's one of my favorite ones that it's amazing.

Speaker 3 (02:09:21):
Well also because it's very satisfying.

Speaker 1 (02:09:23):
Yeah, the second you started talking about like the low
low plane drops of drugs. Yeah, like all right, now
we're in a whole different thing. This is not small
town America.

Speaker 2 (02:09:31):
I want to give there's an Unexplained dash mysteries dot
com website, and there's a dude name. How would you say,
I'm sorry a person?

Speaker 1 (02:09:39):
Am I be a lady in Let's say it's a
French word, lumiac lemieux, lemieux, who like broke it the
fuck down in a way that was like he did
or he or she did a thing that was like
based on all these people's testimonies, here's what happened and
like told the story in a perfect way. And I
love that. It was great because I can't even tell
you how much, like how many fucking sites I've been.

Speaker 4 (02:10:00):
Doing for this.

Speaker 1 (02:10:01):
It's really fun, like it's a fun rabbit hole. Yeah,
that's great. Yeah, really fascinating. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:10:07):
And of course The Boys in the Tracks by Maara Leverett.

Speaker 1 (02:10:11):
Let's all read it. It's our new book. Yeah, that
sounds good. Oh my god, fired up now. Also, then
it makes me think of like I wonder if all
those times you know there's that there's an area I
think it's well, I'm sure every state has one, but
like there's that triangle in Massachusetts where it's like crazy
shit happens and don't go there. It's haunted and all

(02:10:31):
that stuff, and it's like that could be a drug drop.
Like I wonder how many things like that that are
like urban areas of like the Blair Witch lives here,
and then all the kids are like go there, but
then don't go any closer because people get killed or whatever,
and it's just like, don't go there because yeah, we're
just shipping cocaine into this little cabin. It makes me
think that what's that place where all the Columbia all

(02:10:54):
the cocaine comes from. No, I know that one really.

Speaker 2 (02:10:56):
Well, what's the one where like the go and Maless's
children at the Federal Credit Union?

Speaker 1 (02:11:05):
Oh, in Lincoln, Nebraska. Yeah, what's the place called the
Federal Credit Union? No, it's the name of the credit union, right, No? No, no,
but yeah, it's the Bohemian Grove growth Bohemian Groves in California.
Is that where they go?

Speaker 2 (02:11:18):
There's a great last podcast in the Left about that
whole story. What's the Federal Credit Union that they talk about.

Speaker 3 (02:11:23):
No, that's the one that's Johnny Gosh. Yes, it's Johnny Gosh.

Speaker 1 (02:11:28):
But then the Bohemian Grove is basically insanely rich leaders
and it's right by where I grew up. Jesus. Yeah,
I know people that have worked there as cater waiters
and stuff. But they they do all this weird shit
and it's very secretive.

Speaker 2 (02:11:41):
Can they have a cater wai to Renos and tell
us what really fucking happens there on Facebook? I will
join that subdurid and immediately Bochterina or Overenas. I mean,
there's people that say the only reason there's people talk
about it so much. Is just because it's all these
rich politicians and millionaires and all this stuff, and then
there's the other people who are like, oh no, they

(02:12:02):
have full on pagan rituals and they kill children or
whatever it is, and who knows what the truth of
it is.

Speaker 1 (02:12:08):
I love it. It's just also fast. It goes all
at the top, and we're never going to Arkansas. Sorry Arkansas,
but I now am not allowed. I'm like not allowed
there anymore because of the story, because of how many.

Speaker 3 (02:12:20):
People you called the fucking idiot in the story.

Speaker 1 (02:12:23):
I just implicated everyone in this. And also Dan Harmon's
going to get a text at two am of like
I heard that the girls on my favorite murder were
talking shit on you Dan.

Speaker 2 (02:12:32):
Like Dan Harmon Harmontown. Oh no, leave Dan Harmontown alone.
I went to his wedding.

Speaker 1 (02:12:37):
He's a lovely man. We love Dan Harmontown. That's it.

Speaker 3 (02:12:42):
You're what do you want to blend right.

Speaker 1 (02:12:44):
Into your hooray?

Speaker 2 (02:12:45):
I just have a quick one because this was so
fucking long. It's speaking and it actually blends into the
mansions of the Gilded Age. Yes, Instagram, I actually been
tagged me in a thing called an Instagram called cheap
old Houses. I just am obsessed with on Instagram, and
it's just someone who posts houses that are under one

(02:13:06):
hundred grand, but they're like seven grand to like one
hundred grand. That like old Victorians that you have to
go live and like wherever the fuck bum fucky Shore
you fucking Arkansas. Yeah, but they're at least and they
show you through the house, so it's and then they're empty.
But it looks a little bit like abandoned porn, which
I love, but also a little bit like I would
change the wallpaper in here.

Speaker 3 (02:13:26):
It's just like it's a deep dive. Check it out,
crazy cheap old house.

Speaker 1 (02:13:30):
You could also along the same lines, watch the movie
The Money Pits Darring Tom Hey, it's exactly the Goldie
And no, no, it was it's Diane from Cheers, right.
My friend Jennifer Gary and I watched that movie a
hundred son so loved it so much of it. Well
mine this week is I just got super crazy. My

(02:13:51):
friend Dave Mesmer, God bless you, Dave. He's been my
friend forever we were college roommates. He told me to
watch Shit's Creek like a year ago, and I think
it's because of the title. I was like, I'm not
into that broad stuff or whatever. I started watching it yesterday.
I watched it for two full days straight. It is
my fucking favorite. There's three seasons of it on Netflix.

(02:14:13):
It's so brilliant and it is.

Speaker 3 (02:14:16):
It was created by Eugene Levy and his son.

Speaker 1 (02:14:21):
Daniel. His real name is Daniel Lovey, but on the show,
his character's name is David, and his sister's constant going
ew David. And it's my favorite. And it's Jeene Levy
and what's her face and Catherine O'Haras mother. I would
watch anything they're in. It is so good.

Speaker 3 (02:14:37):
It is so well written.

Speaker 1 (02:14:38):
And it starts out like, you know, the rich people
that fall and then they have to live like poor people,
which we've seen it before. So I in my judge
you judge TV writer way, I'm like, I don't have
time for it. It's so hard, joke funny, the characters
are so good, crazy Catherine O'Hara's accent alone, I could

(02:14:59):
watch it, like, I'm already planning on rewatching all of it.

Speaker 2 (02:15:02):
Well, I told you I was looking through this because
you told me that earlier. And there's a shit's creek
Areno wait, where does it?

Speaker 1 (02:15:08):
Oh?

Speaker 2 (02:15:09):
Shit, shitter renos s h I T T E R
I n O S. There's a shitt Renos Facebook group.

Speaker 1 (02:15:16):
I love it. So you're going to join that. There's
me my minute to tell us it's over. You guys,
thanks for listening to this long episode. This was how much?
How long? Stephen?

Speaker 4 (02:15:25):
This isn't even the longest episode.

Speaker 1 (02:15:28):
I feel like because it was so much fun, it
doesn't feel that long. Yeah, that's right, this was great.
It was only three hours and ten minutes. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:15:35):
Thanks you guys for listening so much.

Speaker 1 (02:15:37):
For listening. I love you for being here with us.
We have the best time.

Speaker 3 (02:15:40):
Yeah, what a joy, What a joyous occasion.

Speaker 1 (02:15:43):
Stay sexy and don't get murdered. Goodbye. Oh here he is.
The start stage is great. Elvis well, Cookie, good