149 - Lifestyle & Feelings

Karen and Georgia cover the Missoula Mauler and the Forest Park Killer.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:16):
Hi, Hi, welcome to my favorite murder. It's a podcast,
you know it.

Speaker 2 (00:23):
That's Karen Kilgarrett, and that's Georgia hard Stark, and of
course there's Stephen sitting sitting over there on the ground.
That's right, just just maintaining that's exactly right.

Speaker 3 (00:33):
Oh fucking today, Oh, Wednesday is the fucking day that
our fucking podcast network launched.

Speaker 2 (00:43):
We launched that mother, Today's the day. Congratulations, thank you,
Congratulations to you, thank you. It feels great. We've been
working on it. We've been multitasking for quite some time.
We're not complaining, no, we're just letting you know that.
It's uh yeah, it was very exciting.

Speaker 1 (00:59):
It was so excited it was surreal. I couldn't sleep
last night. It feels, it feels good, and I'm very
I'm very happy about it.

Speaker 2 (01:06):
Big thanks to Danielle Kramer. She is our producer and
she has basically been making it happen in the real
I was gonna say meat and bones, way, oh is
that a saint?

Speaker 1 (01:19):
No, it is in America, now it is.

Speaker 2 (01:22):
Danielle Kramer is a is a business wonder, and she
has been guiding us and helping us navigate and making
it happen, and we wouldn't have been able to do
without her. So yeah, we couldn't be more excited to
be working with her and to be having this this
podcast network that we have been planning and dreaming about
and doing things for. And the cool thing is for

(01:46):
shows premiered.

Speaker 1 (01:48):
Yeah, I guess the following the per cast of course,
do you need to Ride? And this podcast will kill you? Yes?
And my favorite murder of course.

Speaker 2 (01:55):
And of course the old my favorite murder you know,
and this podcast will kill You is like number three
on the overall charts.

Speaker 1 (02:03):
It's that shot up. Those girls did great. The fall
Line is number five. The Fall Line went right up.

Speaker 2 (02:08):
There in top iTunes charts overall and on the Lifestyle
and Feelings of the charts.

Speaker 1 (02:15):
What is it called.

Speaker 4 (02:15):
Students Society and culture?

Speaker 1 (02:17):
Society and culture feelings. The podcast came in hot and hot,
have you right? Yeah?

Speaker 4 (02:22):
I think I think that's appropriate to lifestyle and feelings
cat people, Yeah, feelings, feeling strong about your pet.

Speaker 1 (02:28):
Yeah, feeling yeah, feeling Karen.

Speaker 4 (02:32):
Yeah. Number I think as of right now it's number
ten or eleven.

Speaker 1 (02:36):
That's amazing, very exciting.

Speaker 2 (02:38):
Yeah, And then of course there's even more to come.

Speaker 1 (02:41):
Oh yeah, we've got more podcasts coming you guys, shit,
and we're very excited about the talent that we have
topic story made at you, but we can't yet.

Speaker 2 (02:49):
You'll be very excited. But this is our foundational block
of four.

Speaker 1 (02:54):
Yeah, I feel I feel very proud of us. Yeah,
women start, you know, business women, and this is all
we're making it happen.

Speaker 2 (03:02):
My mom texted you today, Janet. Janet sent me a
private text.

Speaker 1 (03:06):
Janet said, I want to wish Karen congratulations to what's
her phone number? And I was like, oh no, And
I asked you first, like can I give my mom
your phone number? This might go very poorly.

Speaker 2 (03:16):
And normally I don't want to text with people's parents.
I'm not a parents person. I've always been a real rebel.
I wanted I want to peel out away from your parents.

Speaker 1 (03:27):
You want them to be like you shouldn't hang out
with her? Yeah.

Speaker 2 (03:29):
There people will always be like, my parents are in town.
Do you want to go out to dinner? It's like no,
I really, really, I went out to dinner with your dad.
Now that's an exception. I'm holding everybody else's parents the
standard of my dad.

Speaker 1 (03:40):
That's great. Do your parents party?

Speaker 2 (03:42):
No?

Speaker 1 (03:42):
Goodbye? Do your parents tell a good story?

Speaker 4 (03:45):
No?

Speaker 1 (03:46):
Sorry, I can't do all the work. Sure, but no.

Speaker 2 (03:49):
Janet sent me a very touching and actually it was
a kind of message that reminded me of what my
mom would do, where it's like, this is a big
deal and I'm so proud and I can't believe it
was just.

Speaker 1 (04:00):
Like the future holds this. It does. And she said
I love you, which is like you, Janet. She and
he killed it. She killed it. Yes, she really meant alone.
I'm proud that to be her daughter, that when she
does stuff like that.

Speaker 2 (04:13):
Yeah, Hey, loo's other times or the problem sunshine and rain,
you know, joy and pain.

Speaker 1 (04:20):
That's right. Yeah, So that's it's all happening.

Speaker 2 (04:23):
I spent on my drive over here, spent about fifteen
minutes still and I've already done this before, trying to
explain to my dad what a podcast network is, what
it means. He just keeps trying to bring it back
to like radio.

Speaker 1 (04:36):
I understand it either one. I'm like, it's basically like
a TV network. It has shows. How hard is that
to understand? Right?

Speaker 2 (04:42):
Because my dad goes so in the shows that you
premiered today. Did they make them all at your offices?
And I was just like, Dad, it's like if we
were Netflix and then all the movies were just presenting
the movies.

Speaker 1 (04:55):
Oh okay, why did you say that? Yeah? Why didn't
you say that in that exact way? To make me understand?
And I'll forget by the next time we talk. Promise you.

Speaker 2 (05:05):
Yes, we're going to have to have the conversation a
couple of times. Look, it's the wild West is podcasting.
It's a brave new world.

Speaker 1 (05:11):
We're proud to be a part of this, right, we
really are.

Speaker 2 (05:14):
We should also thank our agent Orn Rosenbaum's host also
helped us guided us through this.

Speaker 1 (05:20):
It's been very business. Ye, there's been a lot of business,
a lot of texts and a lot of calls. Yeah,
I'm tired. Oh we we have. I mean this is
a brag.

Speaker 2 (05:32):
Yeah, but we've done over twenty one conference calls.

Speaker 1 (05:35):
I would say we've done like ten hours of work
on this so a week so done some serious picking. Yeah,
we had like a really hard can I do a
merch corner? Would you fucking holiday? Merch? Holiday? March said
today Thursday, whatever it is, November twenty or nine day

(05:57):
your Thursday or Wednesday? Is there a November twenty ninth? Yes? Here, Okay,
November twenty ninth is the holiday merches out. We have
the highan Bitches T shirt that I'm so excited for.
We have some new ugly holiday sweaters with new fucking
quotes on them. We fucking have my favorite murder wrapping paper. Yes,

(06:17):
we have my favorite murder motherfucking candles.

Speaker 2 (06:20):
Scented candles, and four delicious flavor Can I tell everyone
what flavors they are?

Speaker 1 (06:25):
Would you please? I would love to hold on let
me find them, and then we can't talk about that one.

Speaker 2 (06:32):
Of those beaver nuggets that they gave us at the
at the Texas gas station.

Speaker 4 (06:38):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (06:38):
One candle scent is canned wine, canned wine. Another is
stay out of the Forest. It's a piney scent. Pine.
There's Karen's big old cup of coffee coffee, and then
there's an Elvis. Want a cookie that smells like a
fucking cookie? Actual can not a cat tuna cookie, but
an actual nice cookie. That's right. There's a here's the thing,

(06:58):
fuck everyone sweat pans. There's a cross stitch pattern. Yeah,
and there's a bunch of different wrapping papers and T
shirts and so many things, and you get a free gift.
First seventy five orders over fifty dollars get a free
gift with purchase. While oh, we also have Christmas tree
Decker Christmas ornaments ornaments. We call them really ornaments, they're
called ornaments. Yeah, it's really exciting. So go to my

(07:20):
favorite murder dot com. There's a shop there. You can shop,
go have fun. It's very exciting.

Speaker 2 (07:25):
Also, there's a merch store for exactly Right Network right
and that has there's a really cool coffee mug with
the logo on it. The logo is so fucking cute.
I love it so much. Yeah, they did a great
the Mideral designers. They have a design team that killed
it with the merch.

Speaker 1 (07:41):
I love it. And there's a little there's a little
makeup pouch. There's an enamel pin that's so popular these days.
So you can go to exactly Right Media and that's
our website. So if you want to follow lovy news
and shited on that. There's a fucking newsletter. Yeah, you
can get a newsletter. You can just check.

Speaker 2 (07:56):
And and follow along from when we post this what
you know, every new podcast that we post, it's going
to be your Change it to your homepage. Just get
in there, get it. I don't know how to tell
you how to do it.

Speaker 1 (08:07):
Go around your office and change everyone's at night, change
everyone's homepage to exactly writemedia dot com. Stop landing on
that Yahoo homepage and.

Speaker 2 (08:16):
Guess on over it's all bad news anyways, Hey, do.

Speaker 1 (08:20):
You want to hear some good news? I do. This
is an.

Speaker 2 (08:23):
Email that Stephen pulled for us, and the subject line
is Alfree Woodard is my aunt. Oh my god, dear
all Le's longtime listener, first time emailer. I've been a
fan since day one. I love this podcast so much
so you can imagine my joy when I was listening
to episode one and Karen started talking about Alfree Woodard.

(08:43):
She is my aunt. My marriage married my uncle. They
met while she was teaching an acting class at his college. Scandal,
and she is. She's given away the family secrets, and
she's absolutely amazing. Unlike a lot of other Hollywood royalty.
She's a big part of our family and is always
at family functions. She's an amazing cook, a sparkling personality,

(09:04):
and a fabulous mom to her two children. I was
so thrilled to hear you two talk about her, because
she's an incredible actress. Yeah who I think often doesn't
get the recognition she deserves the fucking that's right. She
started acting in the eighties, and I can't imagine it
was easy for an African American woman to get roles,
but she worked her ass off to get where she
is today with no favors from anyone. And not only

(09:26):
is she a great actress. You know, I'm going to
start crying. Dam Not only is she a great actress,
but she and her husband Roderick are total criminal justice warriors,
and they are both involved in fighting against the mass
incarceration of minorities and of course against everything Trump. You
can imagine how thrilled they both were when I took
the job after law school as a public defender.

Speaker 1 (09:47):
WHOA, that's rad. Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (09:49):
Well, a lot of members of my family joked about
how I would be getting them out of their DUIs,
and she wrote in parentheses, eye roll Free told me, girl,
you are doing the Lord's work. Next time I visit LA,
you two should come hang it.

Speaker 1 (10:05):
Out from Oh my god, no, stop it.

Speaker 2 (10:08):
I'm officially inviting you. No she'd love it. Yeah, she
would not. I'm telling you stop it. Love the podcast.
Love you guys, keep on fighting a good fights. Sincerely, Marina.
That thank you so much. Yeah that was a I
mean I may come back into it, but amazing.

Speaker 1 (10:24):
And now we have a fucking lawyer when we get
our DUIs, because no, we have to that. We're business people. Marina.

Speaker 2 (10:32):
I'm sorry I woke you up. I'm usually not like this,
remember when you can she call it everywhere to pick
me up. Yeah, that's I love things like that. That's
so great because how fun is it to be able
to step forward and be like, oh, you know your
favorite celebrity, they're not an asshole.

Speaker 1 (10:52):
They're actually as awesome as you think they are. Right, Yeah, yes,
so nice good feelings. Yay, good feelings.

Speaker 2 (11:00):
It's the holiday season. Okay, I'm gonna. I'm gonna do
this as lightly as I can.

Speaker 1 (11:05):
Oh, you gonna.

Speaker 2 (11:07):
I'm not gonna yell at anybody me. Nope, definitely not you. Okay,
probably not Steven. This is just a general advice, piece
of advice for interacting on Twitter. Let's see, let's hear
this is Twitter Corner with Karen's Twitter Corner with Karen,
just advice.

Speaker 1 (11:22):
Do you want to have fun on Twitter? Do you
want to interact?

Speaker 2 (11:24):
Do you want people to want to interact with you? Okay,
Then if somebody makes a joke and they're talking about
real people and possibly real people that you and I
might know, don't.

Speaker 1 (11:36):
At anybody in a response like, don't at anybody that's real? Ever,
who are we talking? Can you tell me what happened? No,
I don't want people to feel bad.

Speaker 2 (11:45):
I really don't want feel people to feel bad because
there's no fallout for this.

Speaker 1 (11:48):
Okay, but it's just more of a touch. It's like
a it's like a mortifying moment.

Speaker 2 (11:53):
You have to remember that we know a lot of
the people in comedy that we talk about, and we
don't want You don't need to be the person that
goes and goes. I bet this person needs to know this.
Karen talked about you don't do it. Don't If we
didn't do it, you don't need to do it.

Speaker 1 (12:08):
Don't do it.

Speaker 2 (12:09):
They don't like it. They might not like it, maybe
they love it, we don't know. Stop assuming everybody likes it.

Speaker 1 (12:15):
Yeah, and don't do it. Okay, this has been Twitter Corner. Twitter.
What's the word Twitter Twitter corrections corner. Yeah, that's perfect.
I'm trying to think of one for Instagram. But it's fine.
Nobody wants to see your food anymore. No, I want
to see everyone's food. Oh you do.

Speaker 2 (12:33):
Yeah, yeah, that's just a preference thing. I love food photos.
I don't know anything about Instagram. I shouldn't be talking
at all. Is that it don't take pictures of your thighs.

Speaker 1 (12:43):
No, and do that the hashtag thighs are hot dogs,
legs are hot dogs. Excuse me, you know what I'm
talking about. When they look like legs are hot dogs,
that's the best. That's the best.

Speaker 2 (12:52):
I love people being like Red Tan, like Hulk Hogan
Tan taking pictures of their thighs.

Speaker 1 (12:57):
So good, listen, celebrate, good time.

Speaker 4 (13:00):
Come on.

Speaker 1 (13:02):
Oh my god, Stephen, who goes first? It's been so
fucking it's been so long.

Speaker 4 (13:06):
I believe you go first? Is the loady Haystack murders
in Sacramento.

Speaker 1 (13:10):
Shit, wow, I feel like it's been so long since
we've podcasted, and we're doing it in my living room,
which is weird because the pod loft is so full
of boxes and gifts and crazy things. Yeah, we can't
even fit up there, and luckily we're moving to our
offices this fucking weekend. I'm so excited. Exactly right offices.

Speaker 2 (13:30):
We have exactly right offices where the people who are
on the network and are going to come and record
their podcast. That's right, it's all real and official. We're
just like the Velveteen Rabbit.

Speaker 1 (13:39):
We're real, We're real. Oh, and we're going to get pneumonia?
Was it you? No, that's the secret card. No, didn't
the little boy in the Velveteen Rabbit get pneumonia and die?
He fucking died. I think he fucking died and only
focused on the rabbit part of that, So don't care
about the rest. I love the.

Speaker 2 (13:56):
Children's books used to be about dying children and children
who die, where it's like can you imagine.

Speaker 1 (14:02):
Well, it's like Charlotte's Web. It's like, get ready to
cry your fucking eyes out. Yeah, that's right. Remember that
thing you loved? It died, it died. Oh. I remember
my mom crying so hard when she read that to us.
She couldn't speak. I think I was like four, and
I remember and like seeing your mom weep, yes, because
it's so touching. It's so touching.

Speaker 2 (14:22):
It's so beautiful, and it also really is like, but
it's it's not a children's book. If you're getting into
mortality shit, then leave the kids out of a giving tree.
The giving tree is.

Speaker 1 (14:32):
Like a story about a short asshole. Yeah who gets
old and dies?

Speaker 2 (14:36):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (14:36):
Everyone.

Speaker 2 (14:37):
And it's like, you chopped the fucking tree down. All
that tree did was give you everything.

Speaker 1 (14:41):
Yeah, I mean, and then it's like, guess what the
tree is your parents? You better love your Paris.

Speaker 2 (14:47):
Sorry, but the tree is your mother. Yeah, the trees
your straight up mother's right. You chopped her down and
its look terrible. Took her branches, her hot branches, her hot,
perky branches. Always told her she rist you. You's always
told her she wasn't cool. It made it look like
a fucking stump of a person. You you stole all
her apple.

Speaker 1 (15:06):
And then at the end do you sit on her
and you sit right the fuck on her stump?

Speaker 2 (15:11):
Janet, I'm sorry, Janet, I'm sorry. I'm going to texture
back right now. Sure, sorry, Janet.

Speaker 1 (15:19):
Listen. Georgia doesn't want to have to say that herself.
I'll do no. She's like, she'll what have you done
with my daughter? That's not my daughter taught her turn
her over? Oh in person? Okay, all right, listen, this
is a this is a this is a rough one.
This is like a fucking murder case. But it has

(15:43):
positive things in it great including and I survived story
amazing and it has some you know, it ends, it ends,
so that's good. Okay.

Speaker 2 (15:53):
Mine is similar if you're about to do mine, where
I'm gonna pull that pedicure off you.

Speaker 1 (16:00):
But where does your mind takes place? In Portland? Or nope?

Speaker 2 (16:04):
Okay, by We're good. Great because mine is called the
Missoula Maller Missoula, Montana. Okay, I've never heard of this.

Speaker 1 (16:13):
This one is bananas, and there's like, there's a book
about it call It's by John Kostin called to Kill
and Kill Again. But aside from that, there's really the
articles are really short. There's not a ton of stuff.
There's not a ton of podcasts like episodes about it.
But it's fucking bananas, So let us do it. Do it? Missoula, Montana,
you've been there?

Speaker 2 (16:33):
Uh that's where Chris Farbanks is from real co host
of Do You Need to Ride?

Speaker 1 (16:37):
The podcast.

Speaker 2 (16:38):
They didn't fucking bother to put out a new episode
and still I mean I couldn't. I sorry, but there
was fourteen going on. I planned it so poorly, and
because like, you want to record a new episode, and
I was just like I can't. Please don't make me.
And then we premiered anyway, and I was like, oh,
I didn't really think that through. I should have said yes,

(16:58):
and like stayed up. Oh well, but anyway, Karen, But
I will say this, you are enough, Karen. Never. But
new episodes are coming, okay, and we're going to start booking,
like we're gonna start getting back into our old booking.

Speaker 3 (17:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (17:14):
And Stephen is our sound guy. Stephen in the car
with a car. I'm not. I get car sick. Yeah,
And I'm not part of the podcast. You were on
it once. I was on it once. You can take
Elvis with you if you want. He loves car right,
He loves car right. You know cats Okay, Missoula, Montana,
where Chris Shrebins is from, well in the nineteen seventies.
It's a place. It's the kind of fucking place we

(17:35):
always hear about where people leave their doors unlocked, women
feel comfortable walking home alone at night. It's you know,
this is this is their story of when that fucking stops,
which every town has either in the seventies or eighties,
maybe the nineties if they're lucky, and that they felt
that way until the nineteen seventies. So first, on February fifth,
nineteen seventy four, a five year old girl named Schevon

(17:56):
McGinnis disappeared just a few blocks walk from her home.
And it was one of those things where like she
left her at night, she left her friend's house. She's
five years old, five. Her friend walks her halfway there
and says, Okay, go the rest of the way by yourself,
which was totally fine. Five years old. Yeah, that's too young.
It's so sad, but it's like how things were back.
It was absolutely how things hows how things were when

(18:17):
I grew up too. I was fucking always alone. Yeah,
And she disappears and is shortly later found stabbed and
sexually assaulted nearby, and that kind of this that isn't
part of this, this Missoula Maller. He's later exonerated through DNA,
But it's just kind of it's, you know, it has
to be mentioned as what happened in Missoula to change it. Yeah,

(18:39):
so her murder is still unsolved. And then what follows
her murder is twelve years of seemingly random murders and
a series of home intrusions and attempted rapes that terrifies
the residence of Missoula and changes the small town way
of life forever. Wow, and that's the where the Missoula
Maller comes in. Okay. So the first confirmed murder known

(19:00):
to have been committed by the Missoula Mahler happened on
April eleven, nineteen seventy four. It's just like a little
after two months before little Chavn had been murdered. So
two months later, the town is still fucking really, they
still don't know who did it. Donna Pounds she's a homemaker.
She gets home from an outing around one thirty in
the afternoon, and her husband was at work, her teenage

(19:23):
daughters at school. Her teenage son had joined the army,
so she expected to come home to an empty fucking house.
But once she's in the door, she's surprised by an intruder.
The intruder had gone into the parents' bedroom and taken
the gun. I don't know what kind of gun, her
husband's gun from its hiding place in the parents' bedroom.

Speaker 2 (19:43):
He knew where it was, so I bet you it's
like a handgun, right, if there's a hiding place, yeah.

Speaker 1 (19:47):
Card to hide a rifle, probably, Yeah. And the intruder
walks Donna at gunpoint to her bedroom where he had
been fucking hanging out in the house and had already
fucking put the ligatures and ties on the bed. Gross.
I know, this is really awful, just a morning. This
is called my favorite murder. We do awful here, you

(20:08):
do aful. He ties down up, he rapes her, He
takes her down to the basement and shoots her in
the back of the head five times. It's awful. Her husband, Harvey,
who's a fucking preacher who has a radio show where
he's actually been fucking preaching about the eagles that is
taking over the town because of Chavon's murder, recently comes
home to find that an evening to find his fucking

(20:31):
wife dead in the basement. It's so fucking awful. And
there's this really creepy thing I heard, like a little
fact that creeped me out on the podcast called Dark
Topic that said that the dad got home in the
evening after work the daughter or teenage daughter, was hanging
out watching TV. He's like, where's your mom. She's like,
I don't know where she is, but I don't know
why all these ropes are around the house. Oh, how

(20:53):
creepy is that? That's horrifying. He was like, what the
fuck's going on? When in the bedroom realized something was
going on, went down to the I know. So then
the husband founder, yeah, that's terrible. Yeah, okay. Police find
a suspect when a witness comes forward and says that
they saw a local neighborhood boy, their teen lurking in

(21:15):
the backyard on the same afternoon of the murder. Oh,
the teenager is eighteen year old Wayne Nance. He's actually
friends with the teenage kids of the Pound, the Pound
kids and his son. This teenage son who's in the army,
had like randomly casually told Wayne where the gun was hidden.
No fucking shit. And then when investigator Sir Twain's house,

(21:39):
they find a pair of bloody underwear and a twenty
two and twenty two caliber bullets. And they also uncover
satanic books and a wire hangar shaped into a pentagram
that Wayne had used to fucking brand himself.

Speaker 2 (21:53):
Wayne, you need to get out in the sunlight and
get some vitamin D, because if you yourself in a
room too long and read enough crazy ass books, you're
gonna start doing things to yourself. You're gonna start listening
to the craziness in your head.

Speaker 1 (22:10):
That's right.

Speaker 2 (22:11):
None of that would be helpful to a person that's
actually mentally ill. But it just makes me think of
when I'm really bored at work and I take I
just have this very bad habit of I start to
take paper clips and I.

Speaker 1 (22:23):
Field them and fold them back all the time. There
are just dozens and dozens of unfurled paper clips, and
it's like Karen's been here.

Speaker 2 (22:35):
And also, I just was thinking the second you said that,
I went, I wonder what shapes those paper clips end
up in?

Speaker 1 (22:39):
Because I'm not trying to do a shape? What have
I just kept finding like kill? Like that just says kill,
you're actually really skilled. Yeah, it's a perfectly like sculpted knife. Yeah,
whoa how did she do that? And she welded the
two ends. I'm not going to tell her she does
that because I don't want It's like waking a sleepwalker. Yes,
I don't want to scare Karen of herself, I'm scared.

(23:03):
So yeah, so he's fucking bananas. He's known around town
as a teenager being a weirdo. And there's also indications
of animal sacrifices on the banks of the nearby clark
Ford River. Oh no, So so it seems like, you know,
there's a satanic panic bullshit. This is way but I
think before it happened in seventy four, but I think
that there are kids who are or like teens who

(23:25):
are crazy and want to, you know, pretend that Satan
is somehow stirring them or they're fucking mentally ill, and
that's what they do. Well.

Speaker 2 (23:34):
Yeah, usually that's like you know, the old psychopath trifecta
or whatever. It's charming animals. It dovetails very nicely into
the satanic ritn shit because then it's like, well, I
already had the compulsion to kill this living.

Speaker 1 (23:48):
Right, and it's someone and someone approves of it. Right,
If I read about this, it's like I'm doing something
good and what makes me feel like strong or safer
or you know, that was pure speculation. Corner with Georgia.

Speaker 2 (24:00):
I mean, I am not a doctor and I'm not
a Satanist. So don't listen to anything I say, doctor Satanist.
Is that you well, hello and welcome to hell.

Speaker 1 (24:10):
Okay, Okay. The Missoula County Attorney at the time, his
name is Robert du Champs. Do Champs? Is that how
you say it? I'm pretty sure it's to Champs. But
he goes by Dusty Cool. He issues a subpoena. He's like,
this guy's fucking nats. He's eighteen, let's get him in prison.

(24:31):
Immediately issues a subpoena, puts Wayne in front of a
grand jury wanting to indict him. It's the first grand
jury since World War Two in Missoula. Wow. But the
grand jury, after all this fucking evidence, they rule there's
insufficient evidence to charge Wayne as a sestec. Plus he
had passed a fucking polygraph, which we know now means
he was fucking diabolical or it was an inaccurate right, right,

(24:56):
they have a person giving it was bad at it,
I mean any number.

Speaker 2 (24:59):
Of and one of those little heart monitor things could
have just fallen off and down his shirt, right.

Speaker 1 (25:05):
But the first thing that passes through.

Speaker 2 (25:06):
My head though, is he could have that that it
is circumstantial evidence. Yeah, all those things don't necessarily add
up to.

Speaker 1 (25:15):
Murdering this totally. It doesn't say anything about the underwear
being the bloody underwear belonging to Donna. Doesn't saying like that.
So I bet you that if that was a provable thing, right,
there was DNA. Obviously they let him go and Dusty said,
I did everything I could think of. He was cool
and collected as a tombstone, and he like questioned him

(25:35):
for hours and he was just chill. Yeah is chill
the word? No? He was cool? So cool dude. Yeah. No.
In the decade that follows, Wayne straightens out, stops his
satanic bullshit, and joins the Navy. He's then becomes, you know,
stops being the weird around town, becomes known as a

(25:57):
normal dude in Missoula. He becomes a truck driver and
a part time either bouncer or bartender at a local bar.
It says different things in different places. I mean, at
a bar in Missoula, you probably do both right, double duty.

Speaker 2 (26:12):
You let people in and as you're like, you look
at their ID, you hand it back to them. Then
you're like, what would you like to have tonight? And
you walk along with them up to the right. Wash
your hands real quick, right right right hopefully? No, yeah,
maybe draw them off on your genes. That's right, make
that gin and tonic.

Speaker 1 (26:28):
But meanwhile, between nineteen seventy five and nineteen eighty four,
three unidentified bodies of teenage girls who are all decomposed
beyond recognition are found around the Missoula area, all murdered.
Oh okay, keep that in your brain now. Oh no, wait,
they're all Jane Does, and they're given names based on
the location of their discovery. So there's Betty Beavertail, Debbie

(26:53):
Deer Creek, and Christy Crystal Creek. But it's not until
Wayne Nance's final attack that he's finally tied to these
Jaane does.

Speaker 2 (27:01):
Whow.

Speaker 1 (27:02):
Okay, we're gonna skip around a little, okay, all right,
so keep those in mind, okay, And then let's fast
forward to nineteen eighty six. So we were in nineteen
seventy four when when Debbie Pound died or it was murdered.
Now we're nineteen eighty six, almost twelve years later. Wayne
is now thirty. He works driving a truck as a

(27:22):
mover at a furniture company owned by a couple Doug
and Chris Wells. They're like, I can't tell. That doesn't
say how old they are. They look like they're in
their forties or attractive couple. Chris female Chris. She kind
of looks like an American Princess Diana kind of a
thing like, wow, pretty, they look all American, normal fucking people.

(27:43):
Can I sidebar one thing? Always?

Speaker 2 (27:45):
My sister forces me to watch the TV she likes
when I go visit her. So I was home for
Thanksgiving and I find myself watching Megan Markle an American princess,
Oh my god.

Speaker 1 (27:58):
And crying.

Speaker 2 (28:00):
You were crying because there's all you know, they talk
so much about the way Princess Diana raised those boys
and how hands on she was with them, and how
different she wanted their lives to be from.

Speaker 1 (28:13):
Most royalty, and then just like and then being like,
and it's been marrying her is all of those things
that she wants.

Speaker 2 (28:20):
That Harry is now this embodiment of the beauty of
his mother and her humanitarian efforts, and that.

Speaker 1 (28:26):
They talk about when he dressed up as a Nazi
for Halloween one.

Speaker 2 (28:28):
Year mention great, but no, it was just it was
all about because you know what's funny is when I
watched that, I watched them get married. Please don't tell
any of my Irish relatives because they're very against British culture,
especially the Royalty. They've colonized Ireland and killed many of us.
But look, listen, listen, Megan that when I watched that wedding,

(28:54):
it was so beautiful, and the fact that there was
this very strong African American cultural aspect to it was
so fucking cool and so modern, and it just felt
like this special was all about It was all these
talking head people American and Britters who were just kind
of like, this is the way of the future, and
this is the Royal family updating themselves and being like

(29:16):
we're not like this dusty group of inbread weirdos. Were like,
we're of the world and these boys are bringing us
to the future. I love it anyhow, Now I love
Bravo Television.

Speaker 1 (29:32):
I gotta try that sometime.

Speaker 2 (29:33):
I'm really sorry that was an inappropriate sidebar on top
of everything else.

Speaker 1 (29:38):
It's okay, okay, that's what this podcast is called.

Speaker 2 (29:41):
So it turns o's called I challenge you to get
back into this terrible subject.

Speaker 1 (29:46):
Well, let me get back into it. So Wayne, he's
working as when we were at this furniture company where
Chris with a K she works, he works whatever. He
turned out he had been secretly stalking her for several months. Okay.
On the night of September fourth, nineteen eighty six, Wayne
shows up at the Wells house. What's up, chit chatty

(30:07):
on the fucking lawn and asks Doug if he could
borrow a flashlight. Doug's like, great, come on into the
fucking garage. They get in the garage and Wayne hits
Doug over the head with a block of wood. Doug
begins bleeding from a deep scalp wound, but he still
tries to fight Wayne off. Wayne picks up a lead
pipe and beats Doug until he's unconscious. This ends, well,

(30:29):
don't worry, uh huh, just no morning, I shouldn't have
told you that. Okay he pulls out. Okay, wait, okay.
Then Wayne pulls out a revolver and grabs Chris the
wife and forces her to the second floor bedroom, where
he ties her to the bed. Once she's secure, he goes.
Wayne goes back downstairs and drags the unconscious Doug into
the fucking basement. He and he ties him up to

(30:52):
a post with clothesline, and then meanwhile, Doug begins to
fucking wake up, and Wayne beats him more. Then he
takes out a fucking OHK candle care kitchen knife and
stabs Doug in the fucking chest, puncturing one of his
fucking lungs. Oh god. Wayne then leaves him down there
in the basement goes back upstairs, where Chris is tied up. Okay,

(31:13):
despite his injuries, Doug fucking breaks free of his binding. No. Then,
even with a fucking head wound and a pierced lung,
he fucking pulls himself over to his work bench where
earlier that fucking day he had placed an antique lever
action savage rifle. Good job, earlier that day, grabs a rifle,
puts a single bullet into it. He's in a hurry.

(31:35):
Uh he He in his mind is like, Okay, if
I just run into the bedroom and confront Wayne, he's
gonna use Chris as a shield. Yes, So instead he
knocks on the fucking wall with the rifle. Wayne comes
to go downstairs and see what the hell's going on.
Wayne is crouched on the like by the stairs on

(31:57):
the first floor Landing, takes aim and fires his single
bullet at Wayne. The bullet hits Wayne in the side
and knocks him over, but Wayne gets back up even
though it's abdomen had a freaking bullet in it, starts
to crawl back to the bedroom. Jesus, I know everyone
is like on fucking Angel Dustin. Yeah, for real, Doug
is now out of bullets because you only put one

(32:18):
bullet in the gun. He starts hitting Wayne with the
wooden butt of his rifle until the butt of the
gun splinters. Wow, fucking hitting him with it. Wayne is
still trying to get to the bedroom. Makes it to
the bedroom, where but an equally badass Chris had after
hearing the rifle go off, was like, did my husband

(32:39):
just get shot? She fucking broke free of her bindings
except for one arm is still attached. So when Wayne
crawls in while while he's while her husband is hitting
in with the butt of the rifle, fucking Chris starts
beating him up with her fists and kicking him. Yeah okay, uh.
Then Wayne pulls a gun from its pouch on his belt.
I wonder if maybe his pants were off and the

(33:00):
belt was in the bedroom, and then he got to
the you know what I mean, he had a gun there. Yeah, right, Uh.
He fires at Doug, misses him. Oh thank god. A
second shot catches Doug just above the knee, but Doug
keeps coming at him. Now the splintered, but it's not working,
so he starts hitting with the barrel of the rifle,
which ends up getting so bent out of shape it

(33:21):
turns into an l from the force of hitting. They're fighting,
they're tussling, they're fucking fighting for guns and shit. Someone
hits it's at night. Someone hits the fucking lamp. It
crashes to the ground. The lights go off. It's dark,
are you kids? This is a movie. It's in the dark.

Speaker 2 (33:36):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (33:37):
Fuck While while it's in the dark, another shot rings out.
What happened? What's going on? When they're finally able to
get the light on, Wayne Nance is lying on the
floor dying. Oh. We don't know if it's accidental or
on purpose, but Wayne had shot himself in the head.
What there are there's a bunch of different versions. People

(33:59):
say he it on purpose, like he knew he was
going to get killed, so we just shot himself and
didn't want to get caught and taken a prison. There's
a ready user that says that as Wayne was shooting
at Doug in the dark, Dougs maybe smacked him in
the arm and it sent the barrel up to his
own head and shot himself in the skull. Sure. Maybe.
But after the attack, which both of the fucking Wells survived,

(34:20):
Oh oh, thank god, you freaking believe that? Oh my god,
they survived. That's incredible, I know. And Wayne dies wow. Yeah.
So now after the attack, the officers get a search
warrant for Wayne's house and they turn up items there
which link him to at least three murders and other

(34:43):
cold cases and break ins in the fucking area. All right,
so remember those Jane does so the body of Debbie
deer Creek. She was a teenager and she had been
found in an advanced state of decomposition on December twenty fourth,
Christmas Heed in case she didn't nineteen eighty four. She
had been found by a hiker in a frozen grave

(35:05):
alongside Deer Creek Road, almost two years before Wayne's death.
So when Wayne's house was searched after his death, there
was hair belonging to her found there. Like they could
tell by the die patterns and stuff that it was hers,
and investigators were able to connect her to a photo
she was in with Wayne. They're like, this is our Jane.
Do that. They found a photo of him and you
can see it online. Amazing she but they didn't have

(35:29):
a nameber She had been a drifter that patrons of
the bar were Wayne worked. They knew her as just Robin.
They said that like they were together, and but she
disappeared just a few weeks after moving in with Wayne,
and it wasn't until so she was found in eighty four.
It was until two thousand and six that her real
identity was finally found. Wow, after over three decades of

(35:52):
her brother Derek Bachman, searching for her since she had
left home when he was fourteen. Oh I know, and
so they were from Vancouver, Washington. So this whole time
he was convinced that it was a Green River killer
that had killed her. Right, but they finally put this
together when he saw like a drawing of her of
the you know, unidentified body, was like, I think that's

(36:14):
my sister, and kept pounding them to do DNA tests.
So finally they did it and through new advanced DNA techniques.
She was identified as Marcella nicknamed Marcy Bachmann, and she
had run away from Vancouver, Washington when she was fifteen.
And she had after she had confided in her brother
that their stepfather had been molesting her. And so her

(36:34):
poor fucking brother, who was fourteen, like helped her pack
her bags to get the fuck out of the house. Yes,
and he always felt guilty about that and just spent
his life trying to track her down. Oh god, I
know what a hideous situation. What else is he supposed
to do, like make her stay? He has to help
her leave. Yeah, and he's fourteen. He doesn't get to
make He can't make decisions like that. Those are huge decisions.

(36:56):
It's so unfair, it is. And then so Wayne Nance
had taken her in quote after she was left by
a truck driver in the area. Wayne claimed that she
had left the area in September nineteen eighty four, but
when her body was found and identified, she had actually
been killed with three gunshots to the head.

Speaker 2 (37:13):
So it wasn't like moving in quote unquote with him.
It wasn't that. It was like he was like, I
have a safe place for you to stay.

Speaker 1 (37:20):
Yeah, And she believed him or yeah, or and they
were together maybe who the fuck knows? And he's dead,
so we can't answer these fucking questions.

Speaker 2 (37:28):
Right, they just have well they I guess they were
together long enough to get a picture team and developed.

Speaker 1 (37:32):
And it's like a couples like I no, it's like
a couples like you know, photo booth photo Oh oh,
got it, one of those fucking nineteen eighties like photo booth,
Like they look like your mom and dad. Ah a couple.
So another link came when investigators turned at the house

(37:53):
of Wayne turned up a Kellgan hunting knife, which is
just like a cool looking little hunting knife, and a
small ramic statue of an elk. They found that when
they searched his residence. So here's where those come in.
In December nineteen eighty five, someone had broken into the
home of Michael and Teresa Shook, where they live with
their four children in Robilli, which is about an hour

(38:14):
from Missula. I'm sure I'm saying that wrong. Spell it
like you say it. So Michael and Teresa had been
tied up and shot in their home, and afterwards their
house had been set on fire with the four kids
in it.

Speaker 2 (38:26):
Okay, this sounds familiar that Michael Shook yeah it, but
did he die in that fire?

Speaker 1 (38:32):
Yes? Okay, so the parents died, but luckily one of
the neighbors noticed the fire and they were able to
get all the kids out of the fucking house. Thank god,
I know, thank god. So, following their investigation of the
burned down house of the Shook House, the police determined
that only that two items had been taken from the home,
a hunting knife and a ceramic elk. Whoa, and they

(38:54):
found them in fucking Wayne's house. And this is so creepy.
There was a photo of Wayne's dad, George, at Christmas
receiving a fucking ceramic elk as a Christmas present right
at the time of the murders. This is textbook weirdo
serial killer behavior. Seriously, Like, how like the feeling he
must have gotten when his dad en wrapped and was like,

(39:15):
oh I love it, thank you, and he fucking knew
and he's standing there with like weird red pupils like
you're welcome. Yeah, yeah, that's that trophy.

Speaker 2 (39:24):
Shit.

Speaker 1 (39:24):
Those serial killers love creep fucking assholes. Okay. Due to
the similar location and m O, police believe that He's
also responsible for the death of a teenager whose body
was discovered on her road. One of the other Jane
Does in Missoula in January nineteen eighty who was dubbed
Betty Beavertail. She wasn't identified until two thousand and nine

(39:48):
with DNA testing as Devanna Nelson. She was a fifteen
year old runaway from Seattle. There's like, I can't find
any more information on her. It's kind of said she
had been stabbed to death. And the other Jane Doe
is still unidentified. Wow. She was Christie Crystal Creek and
she was found on September ninth, nineteen eighty five. Her

(40:10):
skeletal remains of an Asian woman who had who was
between eighteen and thirty five years old. She was found
by a hunter in Missoula and she had been killed
by two thirty two caliber bullets to her head. And
I feel like they need to do a re like
a redrawing of her because the creepy esque, like uh,
you know, paper mache thing that they have of her
is like it doesn't look like anyone it's so creepy. Yeah,

(40:32):
like they need to redo it updated an update. Listen Missoula.
Let me tell you how to do shit.

Speaker 2 (40:38):
Well, but these things that happened in the eighties, it's
that thing of like, well, I just you know, I
guess it didn't work out or whatever, where it's yeah,
they need that fresh cold case team to come in with,
like the young bloods that are like, no, we need
to do all the updates and.

Speaker 1 (40:52):
All the time. Even though you think the murderer is dead,
you still need to give you know, her identity back
to her family.

Speaker 2 (41:00):
Right because she could have that a young brother that's
been looking for her. Like totally, there's yeah, you have
to do it for the family exactly.

Speaker 1 (41:08):
So Chris and Doug Wells had survived their attack by
Wayne Nance. Chris, they they now own a gun shop
in Missoula. Of course they fucking do. I'm sure great
And a Reddit user claims that, uh, Doug teaches classes
at Quantico on tactical survival training. WHOA, I don't know

(41:29):
if that's true, but I want to take that fucking class.

Speaker 2 (41:31):
If so, he would have a long commute Quanticos, Virginia.

Speaker 1 (41:36):
They fucking helicopter him in. They're like, whatever you need,
mister Wells. They black ops that guy in the Yeah,
hell up his gun shop. They're so polite to him
because they just don't know he is capable of anything.

Speaker 2 (41:46):
They're like, we heard what you did in that how
Yeah we heard these seventeen levels of totally it's survival
and uh, you're James Bond.

Speaker 1 (41:55):
It's yeah, that's amazing. And Wayne Ants is one of
the only serial killers who was murdered by his own victims.
That's amazing. Yeah, fucking Chris and Doug Wells, and that's
the story of the fucking Missoula Mallar, the Missoula Mallar
who never heard a word of it.

Speaker 2 (42:15):
Chris Fairbanks hasn't mentioned a word yip probably doesn't know
anything about it.

Speaker 1 (42:19):
That's so crazy. I was just like Layer, I didn't
know how to write that story because it's like do
I open with him dying, but then how do I
tell these others? Like it was just like a really hard.

Speaker 2 (42:29):
I think you did great, thank you well. And also
because Montana is so country. Yeah, it's so like, uh,
you know, it's frontier people. It's people who who have guns,
have trucks, like they're out in the country.

Speaker 1 (42:46):
That's their lifestyle. So they're all kind of they have
a level of bad assness that we don't we city
folks don't fucking have. That's right.

Speaker 2 (42:52):
They're they're used to dealing with the elements and dealing
with nature and wildlife and stuff like that. So it's wow,
that's kind of amazing. Yea's great, Okay, So mine also
has an exciting survival aspect to it. Fine, And I
got this this story. I watched a show called Shattered,

(43:14):
which is on the ID channel, And if you haven't
seen it, this.

Speaker 1 (43:17):
Is like my new favorite true crime show.

Speaker 2 (43:19):
Because it's a very it's about the impact of people
who get it are involved with true crime, whether it's
the detective solving the case, or a survivor from a
from like a serial killer attack or whatever it is.
And the way it's it reminds me a lot of
I survived in that way where they construct the story

(43:39):
around those people's stories, right, and and that kind of
first person and it's so effective. And this episode I
called I watched was called The Wood and so this
is the story of Portland's Forest Park killer and survivor,
Shelley Harding. So I'm basically retelling Shattered's story of the

(44:01):
Forest Park Killer. It's such a good satisfying way to
hear a true crime story, and so I'm essentially just
retelling there the way they presented it. So it's November third,
nineteen ninety two, and twenty six year old Shelly Harding
is seven months pregnant. She is done working for the night.
There's no buses running and it's a cold winter night,

(44:23):
and so she has to start walking out. She's pregnant.
Seven months pregnant.

Speaker 1 (44:28):
Now too many months to be walking.

Speaker 2 (44:30):
I know. So she starts walking through a parking lot
and this car pulls over and the driver asks her
if she needs a ride home, and she sees there's
two car seats in the back seat, and the guy
seems like this nerdy, harmless dude, and her feet hurt
really bad and it's been a long day and she's
seven months pregnant. After five blocks, his demeanor suddenly changes.

(44:52):
He's no longer the person that offered or the ride.
He locks the doors and pulls out a knife, and
on the show Shattered, Shelley says, you could feel his
rage and she starts to panic, but then she sees
he's also panicking. So there's it's like really scary because
he was not in control of here's a person freaking out.

(45:15):
And then as he's pulling this knife and starting to
you know, attack her, he rear ends another car, so
two guys get out of the car he hits, and
Shelly's like, oh my god, thank god, I'm gonna be rescued.
And then the guy who pulled the knife on her,

(45:35):
the driver, speeds away and leaves the scene of the
crime and ends up driving her into the woods.

Speaker 1 (45:43):
Oh my god. No.

Speaker 2 (45:45):
Yeah, So she realizes he's going to kill her. Her
baby is never going to get born. So she starts
touching everything she can in the car, and then she's
acting like she likes him and she's trying to just
basically keep him from killing her. He puts a seat
belt around her neck, he strangles her, and he rapes.

Speaker 1 (46:03):
Her multiple times. Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (46:06):
When the assault her all over, he begins to cry,
which how fucking unnerving is that dude.

Speaker 1 (46:12):
So she comforts him. She says it's okay and that if.

Speaker 2 (46:16):
He just lets her go, she's not going to tell anybody.
Just take her back to that parking lot. And he
does it, and she gets out of the car and
she fucking gets away.

Speaker 1 (46:25):
Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (46:27):
So she gets taken to the hospital and calls the police,
and Detective Dave Schlegel meets her at the hospital and
he is so impressed that she survived this fucking attack,
and he knows she's really strong and you know, there's
something like in her. So together they decide they're going

(46:49):
to try to catch this guy. And yeah, and of
course that Dave Schlegel is on the show and he's
now retired, and he's got like the handlebar mustache and
the transition lenses and he's so soft spoken and he's
one of the good guys, you can just tell. So luckily,
those two guys that got rear ended wrote down the

(47:10):
license plate as the rapist drove away.

Speaker 1 (47:13):
Oh my gosh.

Speaker 2 (47:14):
So they called it into the cops. So the police
investigate the car and they find all of Shelley's fingerprints
inside it, and so they arrest Todd Alan Reid for
the rape and kidnapping of Shelley Harding. Shit, Okay, So
Todd Alan Reid was born in Portland on May twenty second,
nineteen sixty seven, nine days after his parents, Ronnie and Alfred,

(47:36):
were married. When he's four, his parents get divorced, his
mom remarries a man named Robert Reid. Todd and his
little brother are adopted by Robert Reid, who later says
that Todd was a little standoffish and maybe uncomfortable having
a father figure out around after not having one for
a while. Although he is a fully grown adult, talking

(47:57):
about a four year old being standofficed. So maybe he's
the fucking create Maybe there's a reason a four year
old would want to be his stand office.

Speaker 1 (48:03):
Right, We don't know who's to say. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (48:05):
Nineteen seventy nine, Todd's mom and Reid get a divorce.
Two years later, in nineteen eighty one, at the age
of fourteen, Todd has his first run in with the authorities.
He's arrested for theft, and he's sent to a residential
program for at risk youth. And while he's there, he
takes his ged begins college level courses and accounting and

(48:28):
horticulture at fourteen. Yes, holy shit, so people, let's see
it's eighty one, eighty four, nineteen.

Speaker 1 (48:39):
So yeah, yeah, basically he did all that.

Speaker 2 (48:42):
People say, he's like a sensitive guy and he like
going through that. At that program, he becomes gainfully employed
and he begins writing poetry.

Speaker 1 (48:55):
Oh great, so sure it was beautiful.

Speaker 2 (48:57):
Yeah he he truly contains multitude. So in nineteen eighty six,
read Is nineteen. He meets a girl, a fifteen year
old girl named Gail Bennett. Neither of them have any
money or an apartment, but they decide they're going to
live together, so they stay at other people's homes, or
they just sent set up tents in people's fields to eat.

(49:19):
They burglarize homes and steal food and wine. So they
sound irritating at the very least. Hey, do you mind
if I just like throw up this tent in your backyard?

Speaker 1 (49:31):
No, we love this life. Man. When you're gone, I'm
gonna probably eat all your crackers, I'll leave you a
poem and payment. That's art. That's fucking it's worth. It's priceless, priceless.
In nineteen eighty seven, Todd gets caught breaking and entering.
He's arrested.

Speaker 2 (49:46):
He serves a short stint in the big House, not
long enough to though I have a speech impediment this episode. Okay,
just this is like a very special stre egg that
I'm planting. In nineteen eighty eight, this same judge who
sentenced him for breaking an entering performs the wedding ceremony
between he and Gail. They wanted to prove to him

(50:09):
that they were going to make it. M that's I mean,
not necessary, not a reason to get married. Yes, unnecessary,
not a reason to get married. Wait until you meet
the person that you can't you just love with all
your heart and not somebody who will prove an argument,
prove you right in with a judge.

Speaker 1 (50:28):
You're right.

Speaker 2 (50:29):
Let's use marriage for its actual use, which is which
is for the lord to prove to the lord from
your high school that you can get that good deed.

Speaker 1 (50:41):
Todd and Gale have two children, right, Kelly, I showed
you you said I was that.

Speaker 3 (50:47):
Look at me now.

Speaker 2 (50:49):
Todd and Gale have two children, and Todd gets two
night jobs, one at the.

Speaker 1 (50:53):
Sizzler and one. It's safe Way, Okay, Safe Way as an.

Speaker 2 (50:57):
Infamous grocery store chain here on the Way coast, and
I think a bit a bit in the UH Central
started there. Maybe admit Atlantic region of the.

Speaker 1 (51:07):
United We're not here for fucking big grocery to promote
big grocery stores.

Speaker 2 (51:12):
But if you're going to promote big grocery, please shop it.
Safeway in his spare time. It doesn't sound like a
grocery store at all. No, it's a good emergency clinic.
In his spare time, Todd reads the poems he's written
at the local cafe. Oh, Gail says of these poems
that they were full of longing and not pretty flowers
and butterflies. Gail stopped defending his shit poetry.

Speaker 1 (51:36):
This is the nineties now, so it's like fucking art house,
like coffeehouse. We're late eighties. Okay, so he's he's he's
like on the forefront of the fucking boring ass open
mic haf a bullshit.

Speaker 2 (51:48):
He's slamming poems. Oh, that's right, slamming these poets, right,
which basically means you say it like this, gesture, gesture, gesture,
long leather coat. It seems on the outside he's getting
his life together, but in truth, Todd spent his days
calling phone sex lines because it's the late eighties and
he's a hack, and watching porn and hiding it and

(52:11):
his phone bills from his young wife Gail. Great, he
showed that judge, I can watch more poor than you
can judge. Yeah, while I'm sleeping in a field in
nineteen eighty nine, about a year after their wedding, Todd
is arrested for rape and the kid the rape and
kidnapping of Shelley Harding. He pleads no contest. He fucking

(52:32):
serves three years.

Speaker 1 (52:33):
Wait, this is our pregnant friend. We've now caught up
to the attack of Shelley Harding.

Speaker 2 (52:38):
He gets caught, Yeah, gets caught, He gets arrested, he
gets thrown in jail. He serves three years, three fucking
years back for the attempted rape I mean the attempted
murder and rape of this one.

Speaker 1 (52:51):
I mean the laws should go. I feel like they're back.
Then they're guilty for some like all the murders and
rapes that happened after because there was such shitty scented
Yeah you.

Speaker 2 (53:01):
Know, yes, well, like when they get out after Yeah,
their time reduced, and then they go on to do
multiple murders and attacks and rapes.

Speaker 1 (53:10):
Yeah, exactly, good disgrace.

Speaker 2 (53:12):
Okay, So this is when this is right, when taking
DNA becomes the standard. It's like at the very beginning.
So when he gets out, they take his DNA. So
in nineteen ninety seven, Gale divorces Todd rightfully. So he
has to pay child support. He's granted visits every other weekend.
Oh you're a you're actually a convicted rapist or an

(53:35):
attempted murderer, right, Okay, then you only get every other
weekend after children.

Speaker 1 (53:39):
My dad, who's a good guy, got that. You know, shit,
you please? Okay.

Speaker 2 (53:45):
So now Shelley Harding, on the other hand, is not
doing well at all.

Speaker 1 (53:50):
Because of course she has suffered severe trauma. Yeah that
lasts longer than three fucking years. Yeah, she drinks, she's
into using drugs. Her baby gets taken away from her
because she's unable to care for the baby properly. And
on the show, it's heartbreaking, Shelley says. And she on

(54:11):
the show looks like any mom. She's got like a
cute blast on and a little brown bob, and she
looks completely like anyone you'd see at a safeway. This
show's not brought to you by safe way.

Speaker 2 (54:21):
I did my oh, so on the show, she says,
I did my best to become that piece of dirt
that everyone thought I was.

Speaker 1 (54:27):
And my what life went downhill very fast, so awful.

Speaker 2 (54:31):
I would like to say this here, This is a
great example of when you start telling yourself stuff because
you are in trauma. You're in a bad place when
you're like everybody thinks I'm a piece of shit. Ye,
if you're hearing messages like that from within your own head,
you have to pause it and you have to step
out and go.

Speaker 1 (54:49):
That could also not be true at all.

Speaker 2 (54:51):
Everyone could love me, because when you get into that mindset,
you start making bad decisions for yourself as punishment, and
you don't deserve that punishment.

Speaker 1 (54:59):
That's beautiful, Okay, Well it's fucking true. You watch someone
and say this, and you're just like, fuck, no, no
one thinks you're bad. Yeah, Like I'm like, no one
thinks you're bad because this horrible fucking thing happened to you. No,
but in your mind, yeah, I mean I say shit
to myself. It's horrible all the time.

Speaker 2 (55:13):
Right, You have to remember, horrible shit happens to a
lot of people. Yeah, And if and probably if they
heard your interior monologue, knowing what happened to you, they
would want to hug you, righty. It's not like that
so anyway. But of course, also when you're an addict
and when you're in drugs, like, you don't have that
kind of space and reason, and you can't make good decisions.

(55:35):
So she describes herself, She's like, you know that girl
that you see sometimes in the bad part of town
walking around mumbling to herself with no shoes on. She's like,
that was me, Holy, I was in that life. It
was really really bad. She finally she's strung out, you
know whatever. She finally gets into rehab. And when she's
in rehab, she makes friends with another addict that's.

Speaker 1 (55:56):
There named Lilah Moler.

Speaker 2 (55:58):
They they become close friends actually in rehab and get
sober together. And then one day Lylah leaves and she
doesn't come back, and after two weeks pass, Shelley knows
something bad has happened to her because usually, like if
you're in rehab and you go strung out, you come
back and you start over, and you should do that.

(56:19):
But Shelley knows, like, this isn't this is way too long.
And then literally Shelley goes into the day room one
day and she sees a news report that two bodies
have been found in Forest Park. So on May seventh,
the nude, strangled body of a woman is found in
a heavily wooded area of Forest Park it's that big

(56:41):
park in Portland, and the body is eventually identified as
twenty eight year old Lila Molar. So the next day
the body of twenty six year old Stephanie Russell is
found close to where Lyla's body is found and in
that same it's in the same level of state of
decompass position. And then on June second, the body of

(57:03):
Alexandria Nicole Eisen is found in the same area, also nude,
also strangled, So all three of them, Samemo and Alexandria
was only seventeen. All three of these women had been
sex workers on West Burnside Street and they all looked
relatively similar to each other. So the Portland Police set

(57:24):
up a task force and Detective Schlegel reaches out to
Shelley Harding and asks for her help in accessing the
sex worker community so that they will not be paranoid
of him, that they will actually help him and give
him information he can use, because he knows that that's
where it's happening, and that's you know, where they would

(57:45):
probably have lots of information people that they've seen creeps
or whatever, and he wants them to be honest with
him and not be.

Speaker 1 (57:51):
Afraid So.

Speaker 2 (57:54):
He tells Shelley if she can vouch for him, that
he's not there to arrest anybody, just to get information
so they can find this predator that's killing sex workers.
So Shelley does that. She vouches for him, and she
says because he treated her with respect and empathy and
that quote, he was the first person in a long
time that I could trust. So he is like truly

(58:16):
doing amazing police work. And the and the kind, the
good kind that actually fucking gets crime salt. When you
care about the people that you're you know, they.

Speaker 1 (58:25):
Don't see them as just sex workers or drug addicts.

Speaker 2 (58:28):
Exactly, And it's just like maybe there's a reason people
need to take drugs, maybe really shitty things happen to them,
and it all there's I remember watching this thing one
time and there was a guy that was like it
was a rehabit like counselor, and he said, it's like,
you don't.

Speaker 1 (58:46):
It's like when you.

Speaker 2 (58:48):
See a fox with his leg in a trap, you know,
you don't. You don't think he's stupid for staying in
that one spot. But if there's snow over the trap,
you just see a fox standing there, crime you know
you don't have any empathy, but it's like you have
to see past what the exterior, you know, context is
and see that how drugs just debilitate people. Yeah, but

(59:12):
they are sometimes like this necessary escape if you've really
been through some shit. So that's what this detective was doing,
which is I love it and it's amazing and to
see them talking about it together on the show so cool.
So they decide this task force sets up a sting operation.
So they have a female detective or undercover cop who

(59:34):
looks like the three women whose bodies have been found,
and they dress her up as the decoy on Burnside Street.
So on July seventh, nineteen ninety nine, they see a
man in a Mitsubishi Eclipse stalking this decoy and he's
parked behind her so he can watch her without being seen.
And when Detective Dave Schlegel drives by and he looks

(59:55):
at the stalker, the hair on the back of his
neck sends up because it's fucking Todd Alan No, the
sex offender who'd gone to jail for raping and attempting
to kill Shelley Harding, and he is sitting there in
his car watching their decoy because he got released from prison,
and he's back fucking doing exactly the same thing.

Speaker 1 (01:00:13):
Holy shit. He was sentenced to twelve years, but no,
he got out in three That truth and sentencing laws people, right.

Speaker 2 (01:00:22):
Now, Here's how Shelley Harding found out that Todd Alan
Reid got out of jail, all right, because I don't
fucking tell the victim no, or they didn't then, yeah,
I don't know. They might, they might have updated that system.
She's in a restaurant and he walked by her. Holy shit,
so she says in the show, she tells the story,
and she said she thought she was hallucinating.

Speaker 1 (01:00:42):
That's that is unacceptable.

Speaker 2 (01:00:44):
It's it's inhumane. It's the worst sucking thing. So he
walks by her, and she's going, he's really there. She
jumps up from her table and follows him out of
the restaurant, yelling, hey, you tried to kill me, hey,
and she's screaming.

Speaker 1 (01:00:59):
He won't.

Speaker 2 (01:01:00):
He didn't turn his head, he never acknowledged that she
was behind him. He just got into his car as
if nothing was happening. And she said by the time
they got outside, she was screaming, and he just got
into his car and drove away. As if nothing ever happened. Badass,
She's fucking cool. So Dave Schlegel realizes this is as

(01:01:21):
he drives by. It's the fucking convicted sex offender that
he put in jail who's now stalking the decoy. They
pull read over to question him. They in his car,
they find a novel called The Killing Gift, which is
about a woman who kills sixteen men without touching them.
They also find yellow strapping material in the car, which

(01:01:42):
is like that it's basically seat belt material. But of
course this is all It's not enough to arrest him,
so instead they question him. They let him go, and
then he becomes the prime suspect in the Forest Park killing,
and the police began surveilling him twenty five four hours
a day for the next eleven days, waiting for the

(01:02:04):
DNA tests to come back shit. And then on July eighteenth,
nineteen ninety nine, the crime lab finds that the DNA
taken from the condom that was found next to Leila
Muller's body and the swabs taken from Russell's body match
Todd reads DNA that was taken when he was in jail,
so it matches everything amazing they go to Todd allen

(01:02:27):
Read's job at Renella's Produce in Southeast Portland and they
arrest him, and of course everyone he works with cannot
believe rates him. So when Detective Schlegel goes to tell
Shelley that her attacker is in fact the Forest Park
killer and that he's been arrested and killed her friend

(01:02:48):
and killed her friend, she's in jail herself and when
she sees him come into the day room, she says,
you got him, didn't you, And he says, we arrested him,
but we need to testify against him and his trial,
and because we need to give him the maximum sentence,
you have to be there.

Speaker 1 (01:03:07):
You have to tell them what happened, and you cannot
be on drugs, which is so crazy because it's like
I hear a lot of times, like when they have
to testify, it's like re traumatizing the victim. Yes, so
did not be able to have the thing you've been
falling back on for your trauma drugs for so fucking long.
It has to be a terrifying thought. But you want
to do it, probably.

Speaker 2 (01:03:27):
And she wants to do it obviously for herself, but
she wants to do it for her friend. Right, this
person that she like when she first got sober, meant
so much to her that is killed by the person
that she was raped by, Like it's yeah. So she
was like, I'm fucking doing this, and she so. Detective
Slugle had given her a business card. She tried to

(01:03:50):
get clean so many times. She didn't think she could
do it, but she wanted so badly to fight for
her friend. And because she knew what her friend went
through before she died, and that's what she kept in mind.
So she does it, and she gets sober, and in
February two thousand and one, Todd Reid pleads guilty to
all three slangs. He's sentenced to life in prison without parole,

(01:04:12):
and that the sentencing, Shelley goes and reads a statement
tells her whole horrible ordeal, and then she puts the
letter down.

Speaker 1 (01:04:22):
She looks Todd.

Speaker 2 (01:04:22):
Alan Reid in the eye and she says, but through
it all, I take great satisfaction knowing that you're going
to burn in hell. And because I wrote here, because
Shelley Harding is a fucking badass, and Detector Schlegel and
Shelley are still friends after all these years and he
was at her wedding and then they show pictures. No,

(01:04:49):
Todd Allen Reid is also a suspect in the murder
of two girls who are last seen in nineteen eighty seven,
twelve year old Mindy Thomas and fifteen year old Jennifer
Sure And they were both found strangled in a wooded
area and they were both last seen with Todd Reid's
ex wife, Gail Bennett. And that's the insane story of

(01:05:12):
Portland's Forest Park Killer.

Speaker 1 (01:05:15):
How the fuck have we never heard of that? Right?

Speaker 2 (01:05:18):
And the amazing survival story of Shelley Harding, that's right. Yeah,
Oh my gosh, isn't that crazy? Shattered heavy shattered? It's
produced so beautifully, the.

Speaker 1 (01:05:31):
Job telling it, they do it so good. Wow. Yeah,
oh my god. I know. It's like, there's nothing better
than when a victim gets to fight back. Yeah, both
of our stories. I feel like hit with a ton
of bricks from those stories. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:05:46):
Fuck, dude, dude, dude, deep shit, dude, Yeah, fucking hooray.

Speaker 1 (01:05:52):
H Well, I got to.

Speaker 2 (01:05:53):
Go home for Thanksgiving and we had the best Thanksgiving
at Adrian's with her family and our family. And you know,
it's now it's a bunch of families. It was actually
a really big party. It was so fun to see everybody.
But then Nora has started. She's been ice skating for

(01:06:14):
most of her life, but she's started. She went back
to ice skating lessons and we went and watched her
skate and she can now do the skate the turn
where you just turn a bunch of times in a row.
She's like, it's real ice skating. She's going to be
an Olympian. It's that's what everyone says. But she it's
just so cute because she loves it so much, like
she has the best time. And it was just really

(01:06:36):
beautiful to see because like when she was little, it
was all very cute and like she left one leg
or whatever, and now she's like getting into ice.

Speaker 1 (01:06:43):
Skating's so cute. I'm so proud of her.

Speaker 2 (01:06:45):
I know, it's very lovely to w It's just lovely
to watch her grow up. It's really being down here
and being by myself sometimes and just so much work,
like we just it's just so much work. And to
go home and just get that like a nice shot
every once in a while, like oh things that't matter. Yeah, family, shit,
it's like very it makes me feel like I got to.

Speaker 1 (01:07:07):
Be twelve shot, or or you went out in the
sun and got some vitamin. To me, she just got
reading Satanic.

Speaker 2 (01:07:14):
Put the Satanic Bible down and go watch a child
ice skate.

Speaker 1 (01:07:18):
I highly recommend it my Thanksgiving. My nephew who's like
a told me that his Hebrew school teacher was like,
are you asked my brother? If like she listens to
the podcast, is Hebrew school teacher?

Speaker 4 (01:07:31):
Hell?

Speaker 1 (01:07:31):
Yes, listen. So my fucking rray. I just want to
give a shout out to uh. So there was an
End the Backlog fundraiser. Uh I'll just read this. Hey,
y'all proud fighting ghost baby here. Yes. The day after
the Austin shows, some wonderful Austin Marderinos hosted a Stab
him in the Backlog fundraiser with MFM Trivia and Hometown

(01:07:53):
open Mic. We had some amazing raffle prizes like a
two hundred dollars tattoo, an hour tarot card reading, gift
car places all around Austin, and MFM merched from Austin
Murderinas on Etsy. Overall, we re raised one thousand dollars
for End the Backlog I'm so happy that Austin Murderinas
came together to raise so much money for such an
amazing organization. And I really want to thank you both

(01:08:14):
for creating a community for making this possible. Fuck yeah,
you guys, you did it amazing. The three masterminds were Sarah, Shelley,
and Monica, and they're already talking about having one again
next year. So SSDGM Katie, So thanks for sending that.
Good job Austin. That's very cool. I want to end
on a note. So a couple weeks back, we threw

(01:08:34):
up a live episode out of the blue because I
just couldn't. I found out two weeks ago, out of
nowhere that my long time loved therapist died, yeah suddenly,
and it's hit me really hard. I'm really sad, obviously,
I'm really I'm sad that the world doesn't have her

(01:08:58):
in it anymore, because she was beautiful, wonderful person who
taught me so much. She was like a big sister
to me, and she taught me so much about being
kind to myself and talking to myself as if I
were talking to myself as a kid, and would I
say these awful things to my like the little Georgia.

Speaker 2 (01:09:15):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:09:16):
Yeah, And so she taught me about little Georgia and
treating her well and to treat myself all that way.
And she said that even if you can't use your
own voice to do that, if it's hard, you can
use someone else's. And so I started using hers because
she was just such this beautiful ray of sunshine, and
I never I feel guilty that I never told her

(01:09:39):
how I felt and how much she helped me. She's
in the book, our book, and we had just been
talking about how I could say what I could say
in our acknowledgments, if I could use her last name.
We were joking about it. So you did tell her,
I guess, So, yeah, I guess I did. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:09:56):
I mean that's a big compliment, and that I think
that discussion probably conveyed a lot of your feeling. It
may not have felt that way at the time, but
definitely count that as something.

Speaker 1 (01:10:07):
Yeah, So I guess, yeah, I don't know. Maybe tell
people how much they mean to you, or be kind
to yourself this week as just a little memorial for Kim,
and go to therapy because even though this is really
fucking hard, and you know, I've never had a therapist

(01:10:28):
like her in two decades of therapy. She taught me
that it's just so it's so important and it's life
changing when you find a good one. So I'll keep
doing it. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:10:40):
Good, And yeah there might not be of some final
button because it's not really a finished thing. It's a
new thing that happened to you. So you're still processing it,
and you're processing it without the person that helps.

Speaker 1 (01:10:53):
You process who has all my has all my like
she knows all my shit. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, so give
yourself a break.

Speaker 2 (01:11:03):
Yeah yeah, because it's that's uncharted territory.

Speaker 1 (01:11:07):
Yeah. So I'm really sorry that happened. Thank you. He
is really sad. I know it's not I wouldn't want
to make it about me. Obviously, it's her friends and
family as well. But you know, she was an incredible woman,
and I just the world has a big all the
people she would have helped in the future and that
she was helping now and has helped in the past.
I think it's a big, big loss. Yeah, I just

(01:11:29):
wanted to acknowledge that. Yeah, she reminded me of what's
her name from Scrooge? Is it Margo Kidder? Is that
who it is? I don't think I've ever seen the movies.
You never watched Scrooge. You have to watch a screw Yeah,
I don't think I have. Stephen is it Margot Kidder?

Speaker 4 (01:11:52):
Karen Allen? She's placed Phillips.

Speaker 1 (01:11:55):
Raiders the Lost Art Karen Allen. Yeah, she looked just
like her. Wow, same kind of age and that you
know that? So yeah, and I watched Screwge the other
night and got real sad about it. Yeah, but yeah,
be kind to your little self. It's and if you
need someone else's voice, use minor Karen's.

Speaker 2 (01:12:15):
Yeah, and uh yeah, think about it from another perspective,
right aside from your own if you can.

Speaker 1 (01:12:21):
Yeah, practice just practice it everyone, you know. I started
doing it once a day and then it just became natural. Okay,
But yeah, thanks Bill, let me say that of course,
of course. Yeah, sorry, thank you, and thanks everyone for
listening and making this community huge and what it is
and letting us do these incredible things like start a
podcast network and further our lives in this way. I

(01:12:43):
just I feel so honored and blessed to have this,
this podcast, and so much more than that and this life. Yeah,
it's it's pretty awesome.

Speaker 2 (01:12:52):
Also, I think if a good thing, A good piece
of advice that I've gotten is when you are feeling
lost or like you don't know what to do or
how you know, when you lose somebody or whatever, it's
a really great thing to help other people.

Speaker 1 (01:13:08):
So, like, if you are in if you're relating to what.

Speaker 2 (01:13:10):
George is saying or something's going on like that, just
try to try to figure out if there's another person
that might be feeling like you feel and help them
figure out a way to help them.

Speaker 1 (01:13:19):
That's like the immediate the lifting of a burden.

Speaker 2 (01:13:25):
You think you're gonna wait around for someone else to
come and lift it for you, but actually if you
can kind of get into a proact of like who
can I help lift that's worse off than me? That
actually is a very strengthening exercise that that.

Speaker 1 (01:13:39):
Someone taught me a while ago. I love it. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:13:42):
And other than that, you know, stay sexy and don't
get murdered. Goodbye, Elvis. Want a cookie?

Speaker 1 (01:13:53):
Good boo.

Speaker 2 (01:13:55):
Yes,