26 - Twenty Six Six Six

Karen and Georgia freak out over presents from listeners, then get dark with two child murders: Mary Bell and Lisa Steinberg.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:15):
Let's start now. Let's start right now. Let's start right now.

Speaker 2 (00:20):
Fireworks by on a firework, someone whole building collapses.

Speaker 1 (00:26):
Someone on some social media site said that they almost
got in a car accident when they heard the firework.
They thought it was a gunshot. Oh no, I know. Sorry,
we were just as scared as you were.

Speaker 2 (00:37):
We were more scared because as loud as it was
on the podcast, it was fucking fifteen times louder in
real life.

Speaker 1 (00:45):
Yeah, they're fine.

Speaker 2 (00:49):
Sorry, it was very, very scary, surprising, and to me funny.

Speaker 1 (00:55):
It's hilarious. It keeps happening though, so it might happen
again tonight.

Speaker 2 (00:59):
And what is it Tember? I mean, how much longer?

Speaker 1 (01:02):
I don't know. So prepare yourself and your dogs, because
I'm sure people some people's has there were like thunder
jackets off.

Speaker 2 (01:11):
But I tried to put a thundershirt on George one time. Yeah,
and when I came home it was eaten. Yes, it
was like ripped to shreds and parts were gone.

Speaker 1 (01:20):
I know, I know that. Well's I put a cat
a collar on my cat once and came back and
it was like, here's what I think of it? Yeah,
give fuck yourself. Fuck. I mean, I wouldn't want to
fucking collar. I mean, I guess I did when I
was fourteen and thought I was punk. I work.

Speaker 2 (01:34):
I mean that was the nineties, right, it was, wasn't it.
It was all about cat collars and shit back then. Yeah, punk,
fake punk rock, totally.

Speaker 1 (01:43):
I still have mine. It still smells like like Victoria's
secret apple spray, apple body spray. No oh no, you
mean sorrow.

Speaker 2 (01:53):
Yeah, yep, it still smells like ecstasy.

Speaker 1 (01:57):
Yeah. Uh, hey, how are you? How is your week?
What's going on? Hi? I've just been working. Oh this
is my favorite murder. Oh guys, listen. I mean, I
figure if you press play on this, you probably know that. Uh.

Speaker 2 (02:11):
If you're one of those rando people, it just goes
through iTunes and picks different podcasts and hits play. No
one's ever done that, right, No, I seriously doubt it.
But welcome if you're that one person, if you're the
lone wolf.

Speaker 1 (02:26):
Hi, if you're new to this, I'm Georgia. That's Karen.
I'm Karen. This this is my voice. Karen was the
one singing I do that because it's my passion. That's
her passion and she's good at it, and I will not.

Speaker 2 (02:42):
I disagree that I'm bad at that.

Speaker 1 (02:45):
I'm bad. You just agree that you're good at it.
I disagree that you're bad at it.

Speaker 2 (02:49):
Thank you, because I've heard you do it jokingly and
it's not bad.

Speaker 1 (02:53):
Yeah, it's not. I guess the secret is not to
try or care or care. Yeah, that's true of life,
of anything. Yeah, of anything at all. Speaking of last episode,
I read a hometown murder at the end that caused
me to need to talk about it drink therapy. No,

(03:14):
I did the punk rock finger one. Yeah, oh yeah,
that's heavy, and I did. I skimmed over the middle
for everyone. I kind of told you a little bit
about it, but I accidentally read the whole thing to myself. Yes,
and it was so awful, and I kept for like
a week, I kept picturing the girl who had gotten
killed in a way that like I haven't. I've been
pretty good at like being okay with this topic that

(03:36):
we talk about in study all the time. Yes, but
that one really fucked me up.

Speaker 2 (03:40):
I bet well the idea that it's this girl alone
at a concert.

Speaker 1 (03:46):
No, her finger was at a concert, she was she hitchhiking,
she was Okay, that's about it. This is how much
I couldn't read it. It's like I just didn't tell
any of the details. But was she hitchhiking alone checking along?
Got picked up by three guys like her age? I
can't remember if she knew them. I know it was
the nice she didn't know them. If she was hitchhiking

(04:07):
she didn't know them. Yeah, it was almost you're saying
lest they were in town. Yeah, But it's like I
started picturing all the times that I have done things
that's stupid when I was younger, and why was it
her that that happened to and how horrifying those last
few minutes were, and what like, I just have I
just go there. Yeah, I understand, but my therapist really

(04:30):
helped me, So now better.

Speaker 2 (04:32):
Would she say, just give us some over overall?

Speaker 1 (04:34):
Well, I have this problem with like daydreaming so deep
that I'm there, yes, and I don't even notice it.
And so she says, before you get into those day dreams,
you just give yourself a second of awareness that you're
going into them. Before that happens, it'll rewire your neurons
and you won't just like be true. It's like a
moment of clarity and then then you can do it.

(04:55):
You shouldn't. But and then also, uh, since I'm gone,
me to be like, what does that lamp look like?
What are my hands touching right now? What does this
feel like? Just to be really present in the moment so.

Speaker 2 (05:08):
You can tell the difference between imagining something that you
think may have happened in reality.

Speaker 1 (05:13):
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I'm not in reality anymore. Yeah, So
like just point out things in your brain that are
actually in front of you and happening. That's good. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (05:21):
I would add breathing on top of that. I constantly
hold my breath. I do, and I just have to
remind myself and do weird like deep yeah, just simple
breathing because I'm gone, and breathing is me being part
of it anyway now and holding my breath makes me
feel like I'm going to get through it, eat better, yeah,
or something.

Speaker 1 (05:39):
And that's almost like you're pausing reality. Yeah, and so
breathing isn't even part of it.

Speaker 2 (05:45):
I do that so much, but oftentimes it's to fight
with people in my head. Oh I do that too,
like to present arguments, and you're really good at it
in your head. It's so good at it in my.

Speaker 1 (05:56):
Head, and they and they listen because you're right, and
I move them with my words. Yeah, and they stop
acting like dicks.

Speaker 2 (06:03):
Yeah, that's all completely fantasy. The idea that any of
that is how it works, right, total fantasy.

Speaker 1 (06:09):
The reality is you're just crying and angry and then
can't say anything, and then.

Speaker 2 (06:12):
And you kind of the words come out like this
a little bit. I just want to say, and look,
here's the thing I understand.

Speaker 1 (06:22):
Why can't we be sociopaths.

Speaker 2 (06:26):
Staring down, unblinkingly staring at a person while you're like,
I don't forgive you.

Speaker 1 (06:31):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (06:32):
I feel like this is not an official thing, as
as is every other thing I say on this podcast.

Speaker 1 (06:37):
Not an official thing. Evernofficial corner. Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (06:40):
Someone pointed out and made a fake graph. This made
me laugh so hard. On the Facebook page. When I
made the correction, I said one when I made the
correction one in four, I said that one in four
people were sociopassed, and my correction was twenty five percent
of people. Someone made a graph and it made me
laugh so hard.

Speaker 1 (07:00):
That is amazing. Oh shit, people, everyone is so funny.
So here's a good segue. Into the presence we just got.
I'm holding a cold beer to the stab wound that
gave myself.

Speaker 2 (07:13):
Okay, can I just explain this very quickly? So we
had Georgia had a little pile of presents waiting for
me when I got home to her apartment for work. No,
this isn't my home, and it was like, I waited
for you so we can open these up. We wanted
to open them off air so it wouldn't take forever,
and one of them I opened two because Georgia was

(07:33):
slightly afraid they could be a bomb or something. Dances
like Karen's face, so I'll go. I was like, I'll
go ahead and take the hit.

Speaker 1 (07:39):
I mean, you're off camera talent, so I need this.
I can have the ipatch. You need is your brain
and I would love for my teeth to be blown out, Roy.
Can I get some awesome veneers? Anyhow?

Speaker 2 (07:52):
Yeah, So I did the first two and Georgia was like,
I said. She picked up the third one and I said,
do you want me to open that? And she was like,
I can do it.

Speaker 1 (08:00):
I'm not that.

Speaker 2 (08:01):
Insane or whatever it was you saying anxiety, and then
she went to open it and stabbed herself in the
bare leg with a pair of scissor and it, I
have to tell you, as painful as I'm sure it is,
it's also hilarious.

Speaker 1 (08:14):
It's one of those things. And this happens to me
a lot where I'm glad it happened because it's worth it.
Like I've run into stuff all the time and like
do dumb shit And I'm like, I'm so glad that
that happened. Yes, that's humor and.

Speaker 2 (08:26):
Life instead of just when you look down and have
a rando. That's the second time I said that word,
and I've never really said it before at all. Interesting,
what's going on? What teen boy? Am I trying to impress?
When you look down and there's just a huge bruise
for no reason where you're just like, do does this
mean I have blood cancer?

Speaker 1 (08:45):
Yeah? Why? The majority of my bruises like don't remember
getting And it's not because I'm constantly drunk. I'm not.
You're not. I And I mean when i'm drunk, I'm
smooth as shit too, Like I'm good. I'm much better
in person when i'm drunk.

Speaker 2 (08:57):
When you're drunk, what I notice is that you seem
to just enjoy every single thing that goes. Yeah, you
just have a big smile on your face and you
think everything's kind of funny and like enjoyable.

Speaker 1 (09:08):
It seems like, yeah, I like. I think, I like
understand moments so much better and understand people and get
get life better. Yeah, which is like so unhealthy. But
I think maybe I'm not anxious. Maybe that's it. Maybe
I'm amused and not anxious.

Speaker 2 (09:26):
Deep down under underneath. When you use beer to uncover
your trooe personality. Well, we got some oh my god,
amazing GISs. We just had it like a baby July Christmas.

Speaker 1 (09:38):
What was that someone slamming the door But it sounded
like a gun.

Speaker 2 (09:41):
That That sounded like a half firework to me.

Speaker 1 (09:45):
Yeah, I did all right. Start.

Speaker 2 (09:48):
We got a beautiful card that's the sparkliest thing, with
a really funny cute joke on the front and really
great printing inside. Beautiful printing, the kind of printing I
wish I could do. But I don't understand why that
looks the way it does.

Speaker 1 (10:03):
I might, and I do this, I might trace over
the handwriting labor. It's so satisfying. Can you try that?
I've never done it.

Speaker 2 (10:10):
It's from This card is from Emily and she just
said a bunch of lovely things and it was it's
basically a thank you card for our podcast, which is
the cutest.

Speaker 1 (10:18):
Thing of all time.

Speaker 2 (10:19):
She was raised well girl, and she likes a card.

Speaker 1 (10:22):
We would like to thank her parents for this card,
mister and missus Emily's parents, right, move on to the
next one.

Speaker 2 (10:30):
Then we got from Candace. She sent us this really
fucking rad hurt. She's going to start doing murder zines
and the first one is the murder zine is called
the Matilda Effect, and the first one is about Francis
Glessner Lee.

Speaker 1 (10:45):
There are women in science scenes.

Speaker 2 (10:48):
Uh oh, I thought they were murderer women in science scenes. Sorry,
but the first one, it is about a woman who
did she want to be a cop?

Speaker 1 (10:59):
Did that car I'd say, yeah, she wanted to be
a scientist. She wanted to be She's basically if you
guys have seen the documentary The Nutshell Studies, where she
really this woman way back when really wanted to be
a doctor or nurse and she wasn't allowed to because
of her family. I think she was a rich I
think she was from a wealthy family, so instead she
started to make detailed miniature models of composite crime scenes.

(11:21):
So she just made miniature crime scene so that cops
could study them without screwing up the crime scene. And
she's just had this huge effect on crime scene procedure.
And she's incredible. I love Candice. You can get these
at smut punks. It's smut p u nx dot com.

(11:42):
And she's gonna make she makes other buttons and stuff
and she just makesh it. And I haven't seen a
fucking zine in real life and so long, I know,
do you magazine?

Speaker 2 (11:49):
No?

Speaker 1 (11:49):
I never did. I made a zine for It's like
a tribute to Ray Bradberry in Dlight combined.

Speaker 2 (11:56):
Yeah wow, because those are the two things you liked
what I liked in I sixteen.

Speaker 1 (12:00):
So seeing a zine is like exciting, It's very cool,
and I think you should. I think we should all
support zines.

Speaker 2 (12:05):
You know what I did was I just assumed the
Candice made a zine for all the things I like
instead of what she's interested murder.

Speaker 1 (12:12):
I'm and in science. This was yeah, it was. It
was specifically for me. Well it is a.

Speaker 2 (12:17):
True crime subject, ye, yes, so and so fascinating if
you get.

Speaker 1 (12:23):
It's called The Nutshell what's the documentary called The Nutshell Studies?
You gotta watch it? Yeah, she's it's great, can fascinating.
Thank you, Thank you so much. Please keep remaining to
be a badass.

Speaker 2 (12:34):
Then we got this amazing puzzle from Holly, she said,
Karena Georgia, thanks so much for sharing your favorite murders.
I made a puzzle about mine thought you might like it.

Speaker 1 (12:48):
Like it.

Speaker 2 (12:49):
Yeah, we fucking lost our minds.

Speaker 1 (12:51):
I'm so excited. I kind of like, I kind of
begged Karen for it. It's it's a three D puzzle
of H. H.

Speaker 2 (12:57):
Holmes Murder Castle in Chicago, which is the best thing
of all time. So I think everybody probably knows. But
if you're if you just started liking true crime.

Speaker 1 (13:09):
HH Holmes. I think they're going to make.

Speaker 2 (13:11):
The Devil in the White City movie with Leo DiCaprio.

Speaker 1 (13:15):
And you can get this at where can you get
Hurt the puzzle? Yeah? Wait wait, okay, you can get
hollycardon dot com. So it's h O L L Y
C A R D E N. And I think she's
going to start just making true crime puzzles. It's amazing.
I cannot wait to make this. I'll take photos. It's
very cool.

Speaker 2 (13:34):
So anyway, she started off with ahh Holmes Murder Castle,
which you can watch the movie. It's the best story ever.
If you get creeped out by premeditated, planned psycho murder,
this is the story for you. And I would do it,
but they did it on last podcast on the last
I know, I am not. It's been done a lot,

(13:55):
a lot, and it's very well known, and a movie
is going to come out, so we let we let
it got taken care of in our minds. And finally,
oh my god, and then finally Bethany who may Bethany Jones.
I'm assuming these people are okay with their names being said. Yeah,
I think they want to shout out, which, yeah, absolutely so.

(14:17):
Bethany Jones is from the base Element, Makeup, bath and Body.
I would call it company.

Speaker 1 (14:24):
And she sent.

Speaker 2 (14:26):
Us her card says, I hope you like your name's
sake lipsticks.

Speaker 1 (14:32):
I loved creating them while listening to.

Speaker 2 (14:34):
Your podcasts, all of your podcasts, one after the other,
I twitch, and fittingly, when I was done, my kitchen
looked like a murder scene and I was smeared red
to the elbows.

Speaker 1 (14:44):
I've got a bit.

Speaker 2 (14:45):
Rock and roll and made the skull bath bombs in
your honor.

Speaker 1 (14:48):
Two.

Speaker 2 (14:49):
See what an inspiration you are. Stay sex, you don't
get murdered. It's so awesome. This box smelled. We could
smell the bath bombs from outside.

Speaker 1 (14:57):
That's fine. It wasn't a bomb because I feel like
they wouldn't go to the trouble of making it pleasant.
A soapy bomb. Well it was a bomb. Oh my god,
I didn't think that's yeah, that's right. You were right.

Speaker 2 (15:06):
See you're right all along psychic, but bombs.

Speaker 1 (15:09):
Can be good. That mom's gonna be good.

Speaker 2 (15:11):
So we just got a shit ton of lip glass
and lip bomb and lip scrub and eyeshadow, like a.

Speaker 1 (15:19):
Lot of them are named like have quotes from the podcast.
There's a fucking lip bomb called Elvis Wanna Cookie And
once we got excited and exclaimed that when we saw it,
Elvis lost his fucking mind because he thought he was
getting one, so I had to give him one.

Speaker 2 (15:32):
Yeah, we kept saying Elvis. I won't say it again,
I know, but yeah, there's I mean, our names are
on he on lip bombs. This is this is right
up my eye.

Speaker 1 (15:41):
So she's gonna make them. She just wanted us to
get the first ones, which is so fucking cool. Yeah,
so you can go to the base element at Etsy. Yeah,
and by Murderino and non Murderino. You guys, we can
have our own makeup line. Fucking love this podcast from Bethany.
It's so cool.

Speaker 2 (16:00):
It's very cool. Thank you for our gifts. Totally worth
it to open up, to open you up to danger
and get that pot that PO box. Hey, look that's
plenty of presents. That's plenty.

Speaker 1 (16:10):
I'm okay with the I talked to my therapist about it.
I really fucking lost my shit sass week. I talked
to her about it. I got some pepper spray. The
reality is it's not gonna fucking I mean, what are
the chances that's going to happen? It's not.

Speaker 2 (16:25):
Then I get scared when you say that, I'm sorry.

Speaker 1 (16:28):
All right, if you really really want to find it,
and if you actually have something that you're making that's
like legit, you can have the po box.

Speaker 2 (16:34):
Also, there's eighty million ways to contact us, so that
you could probably say, hey, here's what I'm gonna send
you totally and here's a copy of my driver's license,
so that if I do harm you in any way, right,
and now we have evidence, contacted evidence.

Speaker 1 (16:46):
It's all on the internet. So that was present present.
That was present corner, what we call present corner. We
we do have a little some other housekeeping. Oh yeah,
I have a couple things. Okaya, quickly, and then we'll
get to my favorite murder. We want to promote two
shows that we're going to be guests on. One of
them is coming up on the twenty seventh of July.

(17:09):
It's next week. It is uh Jamie, our friend Jamie Lee,
who's a very funny comedian. She and her husband Dan
have a live show called date Night, and we're going
to be guests on it. On the panel the twenty seventh,
So the twenty seventh, Wednesday, eight pm at uc B Franklin.
So if you live in La, it's the good UCB,

(17:29):
not the stupid one on Sunset. Careful can is that? Okay?
Everyone knows that? Right? I love you, se I'm sorry.
I'm sorry. Susan who works at UCB, I'm sorry. Listen
to me, Susan, I love you. And then we're gonna
we're gonna be guests on the two hundred, two hundredth
episode of The Dollop and it's a live show and

(17:51):
we're going to be guests.

Speaker 2 (17:52):
We're the two guests with Dave Anthony and Gareth Reynolds.
The Dollop is a very popular bi weekly history podcast
where they tell the craziest stories.

Speaker 1 (18:04):
So fucking excited for this. It's at the Meltdown of
course in Los Angeles. It's eight it's on August sixteenth,
it's at seven pm. It's going to fucking sell out
twelve dollars tickets.

Speaker 2 (18:13):
Oh yeah, and it's seven PM show, which anytime I'm
booked on a seven PM show, I either miss it
entirely or seven minutes before it starts, I remember that
it's seven and not eight.

Speaker 1 (18:25):
So that's and the whole time you're like, I hate you?
What the fuck is wrong with Yes? So do you
want me to remind you a couple times? Yes? Please? Yes,
you would do that. That would help me a lot.
You got it. And then so that's some promotion corner.
And then.

Speaker 2 (18:41):
Podcast is coming up September twenty third. Yeah, that's the future.
That's a future one. That's it's that weekend of September
twenty third, We're not sure which day we are booked yet,
but I think the way it works is that you
bet by a pass for like either a day or
the weekend. But it's they've done it now a couple
of years. I think this is either the third or

(19:02):
fourth year, and it's super fun and very cool and
they get amazing podcasts.

Speaker 1 (19:07):
Always wanted to be on it. I've been secretly like
I hate the popular kids, and then I'm like, Oh,
the polo kids want to hang out with me. That's
so cool. I've been with the popular kids.

Speaker 2 (19:16):
Then when you get in with the popular kids, You're like,
what a bunch of fucking nerds?

Speaker 1 (19:20):
You miss my my nerdy friends. It happens every time.
We at some point need to talk about how he
went to the live last podcast on A Left show.
Can we talk about it right now? Really? Yeah, let's
talk about Karen and I this past weekend thanks to
fucking Mark so Vince. My husband is friends with all
of them from comedy from New York. From New York,

(19:43):
and I kind of was like, hey, will you asked
Marcus who he's good front? Marcus Parks what T shirt
company they use to get their shirts printed? But it
was totally just a ruse to get him to fucking
know about the podcast, and he told he said to Vince, oh,
I don't know that's your wife. I love the podcast.
Tell them thank you so much for the shout outs.
And then we both just collectively lost our minds.

Speaker 2 (20:03):
Yes, and Georgia texted me that he said that, and
it was like a six text exchange of freakout.

Speaker 1 (20:09):
Yeah. And then he gave us tickets to their live
show that was last weekend and we went, oh my god,
it was.

Speaker 2 (20:16):
If you like that podcast, it was five times funnier
in person. They watched they showed this crazy old was
Swedish or Swiss.

Speaker 1 (20:26):
It's called hext Hexum. It was a silent movie about
which is the terror of Wishes? And who was that?
Was it William Burrows who was the speaker anyways, Yeah, yeah,
it was Yeah, and the old drug addict guy who
just is a I don't know why he narrates anything sterial.
Someone's gonna get real pissed about me saying that. Would

(20:46):
you just say I thought it was a terrible narration.

Speaker 2 (20:49):
Yeah, he's on heroin. Yeah, he's not good at voiceover.

Speaker 1 (20:53):
Well, then they just told jokes over like, talked about
it over it and it was so funny and they're
all like the fucking nicest dudes, and they were.

Speaker 2 (21:00):
Their jokes were hilarious and they were It was very
cool and there was a huge The whole place was
sold out. It was a huge crowd who were going bananas.
So anyone who's a fan the last podcast on the Left,
you had have been very proud.

Speaker 1 (21:12):
Yeah, and yeah, it turns out they're awesome and you
are correct.

Speaker 2 (21:17):
Yep, cool, goodbye, I think you know.

Speaker 1 (21:21):
And also we have an Instagram account. Go to it,
follow it, Instagram dot com, slash my favorite murder. There'll
be photos of all of the ship. We got lots
of other ship. I post a lot of stuff up there.
Where'd you go? Just now?

Speaker 2 (21:36):
Uh deep inside, I saw I'm a little warm because
we had to we had to shut the apartment down
for recording purposes, which is good. But I got a
little warm, and then I'm just to be totally honest, No,
it was a good thing. I'm just excited that about
the pants I'm wearing.

Speaker 1 (21:57):
I swear to god, I literally is gonna say, well,
you could your pants off if you want, if you're hot.

Speaker 2 (22:02):
No, I'm excited because they are kind of thick, but
they're I just haven't worn them in a long time.

Speaker 1 (22:07):
So it's like your pants. It's a real victory. Let's
tell each other, Let's tell everyone about the other person's
out of it. You have these cute jeans on. They're
just old lucky jeans.

Speaker 2 (22:15):
But I've I stopped eating sugar and now I can
wear all my old clothes again.

Speaker 1 (22:20):
How do you feel? You look fucking incredible. Thank you.

Speaker 2 (22:23):
I feel a thousand times better.

Speaker 1 (22:25):
I've seem like awaker.

Speaker 2 (22:27):
I'm much more awake, and I'm less infuriated at all times.

Speaker 1 (22:31):
Also, it turns out that you have the sharpest cheek
bones I've ever seen anyone have in my life.

Speaker 2 (22:37):
I didn't know, well, they were way under all my
fat face.

Speaker 1 (22:41):
Uh, you know, I just need it.

Speaker 2 (22:43):
I was taking a five year break from society, and
so I decided I'm coming back now, and so I
get to wear small pants and you know, shirts that.

Speaker 1 (22:54):
I actually like. I can see her arms. You can
see my tan, tan tan arms.

Speaker 2 (22:58):
Every time I look at my arms, I think, if
you've freaking out, how tan my arm looked at.

Speaker 1 (23:01):
You're very telling of a low cut. I mean for us, Yeah,
for girls like us low cut.

Speaker 2 (23:07):
It's very low cut. And my whole red bra is
showing no, just kidding.

Speaker 1 (23:17):
Cool.

Speaker 2 (23:18):
Oh, Georgia's wearing a ramper, it's top, a sleeveless romper,
strapless wearing.

Speaker 1 (23:26):
I'm just showing everything.

Speaker 2 (23:28):
She kind of looks like she has an old fashioned
bathing suit on. Uh, that's our girl though. She's a
naturalist and she let she's body proud.

Speaker 1 (23:37):
Yeah, I just also sweat a lot, so just wear
as little as possible.

Speaker 2 (23:40):
I mean, los Angeles is in front of our eyes
turning into a desert. Is it's far back into the desert,
back in Yeah, that the earth is taking Los Angeles
back into its natural forms.

Speaker 1 (23:52):
The whole time I thought that global warming wasn't a thing,
and then now you're convinced now, I know.

Speaker 2 (23:57):
Because of your romper, the number of that you have
to buy and wear.

Speaker 1 (24:01):
I think it's a conspiracy that Target is playing to
get to sellers. Do you want to talk about our
favorite murders? We might as well.

Speaker 2 (24:11):
Skippers come back to us.

Speaker 1 (24:13):
It's time. I think year first, is it me? I
think so?

Speaker 2 (24:18):
The murder that I chose this week, Yes, Karen, And
my favorite murder is one that's always it's been one
that like the first time I read it, I couldn't
I would have to turn my eyes away from the page.

Speaker 1 (24:32):
Because it is.

Speaker 2 (24:35):
Horrible and horrifying, but also like there's an underpinning of
salaciousness to it that I thoroughly enjoy. It's about Mary Bell,
the child child killer.

Speaker 1 (24:47):
Buck.

Speaker 2 (24:48):
Yeah, the childhood child killer. Now what I realized in
looking through my researchers, my research charches today, I mean
from weeks.

Speaker 1 (25:00):
Ago, when all that research just piles and piles.

Speaker 2 (25:03):
Every night, I go to the city library like Morgan Freeman,
and I let the guy play.

Speaker 1 (25:09):
It's the same one from a Ghosts Ghostbusters movie, right,
the big huge cavernous ghosty.

Speaker 2 (25:14):
Yes, I go down to the basement where the very
old did ghost librarian Graff is involved.

Speaker 1 (25:22):
You just for for hours hours.

Speaker 2 (25:26):
So in the pictures of Mary Bell, which we should
put up on the Instagram page, that's what I look
like when I was like exactly, So I've always had
a bit of a connection to Mary Bell, uh in
certain ways. But I also know and we got called out.
I think it was on I can't remember the one

(25:47):
the girl's name, but the girl that shot up the school.

Speaker 1 (25:50):
I don't like, oh my god, Mary.

Speaker 2 (25:55):
Sorry, it's Lisa. That that girl we kind of got.
There's a couple people are like, we were being too
sympathetic to her or being like too nice when normally
we're mean. If it's like a man and it's older,
we're mean, and like, hang am.

Speaker 1 (26:10):
I and disagree with that.

Speaker 2 (26:12):
I know, I mean, everyone has a lot to say
about everything, but.

Speaker 1 (26:15):
I thing at that point, I'm not gonna argue. I agree. Well.

Speaker 2 (26:18):
I brought it up because I was thinking, is that
how I'm going to be about Mary Bell? But the
truth is, I honestly believe that Mary Bell is a psychopath.
I think she anytime she seems sympathetic, it's because she's
trying to seem sympathetic. I think she is, like I
think she's nightmare. Like we need to talk about Kevin

(26:39):
the bad Seed. She's the reality of all of that fiction, evil.

Speaker 1 (26:44):
Child, right, like nothing can be done.

Speaker 2 (26:46):
Now.

Speaker 1 (26:47):
I think there's a reason she's that way.

Speaker 2 (26:48):
I don't she may have been born that way, because
they do talk about how she from an early age
like didn't bond, but she had this fucking crazy mother
either way.

Speaker 1 (26:59):
To me, I just want to say it at the start,
I'm not defending her. I'm not defending Mary Bell, Okay,
But I also want to say another thing about it.
Whenever there's like a child molaster or a murder or someone,
we talk about their past and are like, yeah, that sucks.
What are we I don't. I don't think we were
softer on her. I don't either. I think we're always
like investigating the past of the person who's killing people.

(27:21):
That doesn't exonerate them from But.

Speaker 2 (27:24):
I think sometimes, you know, when it's personal opinion, which
is all all of this podcast is, sometimes more empathy
will come out. Even if you have it, you won't
express it. Like I don't have a ton of empathy
for Richard Ramirez even though we did get hit in
the swing and we have the worst uncle in the world. Whatever.

Speaker 1 (27:42):
Yes, we're just saying, it's understandable that this person didn't
become a normal member of society.

Speaker 2 (27:48):
Yes, And for me, that's what's interesting to me. Yeah,
when you can when it's not just oh, you were
born with this defect where you do not have mirror
nerons and you do not empathize with other human beings.

Speaker 1 (27:59):
That's one thing.

Speaker 2 (28:00):
But like if there's like a little path, you could
have been normal if you didn't experience this parent or
this aunt or whatever. It's some awful pit that you
fell in in your childhood. To me, that's like, that's
really what's fascinating.

Speaker 1 (28:15):
That's the slash study. That's the study. Yeah, the the
effect that they killed someone and murdered them and raped
and all the horrible things. That's the effect that you know,
there's a cause and effect, yeah, et cetera.

Speaker 2 (28:29):
Yeah, and the cause is fascinating, right, And if I
had a an education b didn't have a d D,
I would probably read up on it a ton and
become some type of a of a learned expert.

Speaker 1 (28:42):
About it and me too.

Speaker 2 (28:43):
And instead, instead I have I work in TV, so
I am rewarded for not paying attention to and.

Speaker 1 (28:50):
Also, but we do have a we do have a
true crime podcast. So I think we're good. I think
we're basically doing that.

Speaker 2 (28:57):
Uh yeah, we're doing our best anyhow, Sorry, go on.
Uh No, So I've I've always found Mary Bell fucking fascinating.

Speaker 1 (29:09):
So this happened in nineteen sixty eight. Oh, actually I
thought it happened a lot longer ago. That's cool sixty eight.

Speaker 2 (29:15):
Yeah, and it happened in new in the inner city
suburb of Newcastle in England.

Speaker 1 (29:22):
That's Stephen Kingstown right, No, no, no, in England, never mind Newcastle. No,
Newcastle rockets Castle.

Speaker 2 (29:30):
Rocket, Oh yeah, Castle rocks the Yeah, he's.

Speaker 1 (29:32):
All about Maine. Can we just strike all of that
from the record.

Speaker 2 (29:35):
Yes, absolutely, we're gonna go in and edit this down
so good. We're not no, we're not at all, and
we never do.

Speaker 1 (29:43):
Okay. So she was born to a.

Speaker 2 (29:49):
Unwed, unstable, seventeen year old sex worker, uh named Betty mccricket,
and Betty used to leave her daughter with relatives and acquaintances,
just dumped her off any time she could because she
had to go. She I guess she would go into

(30:10):
Glasgow a lot and works as a sex worker.

Speaker 1 (30:17):
Even as a non seventeen year old sex worker. That
I was the thought of having a child at seventeen, nightmare, nightmare.

Speaker 2 (30:26):
It's just it's what a great opportunity for a ton
of bad decisions like this one where she once gave
Mary to a woman she met on the street outside
an abortion clinic. Shut up, Yeah, Betty was doing it so.

Speaker 1 (30:43):
Her.

Speaker 2 (30:43):
Apparently their household was filthy and sparsely furnished, and Betty's
family members said that Betty tried to kill Mary more
than once in her first few years off and tried
to make it look accidental. So they all became very
suspicious when Mary quote unquote fell out a window drama possibly,

(31:05):
and also when she accidentally consumed sleeping pills what so
they think she could have definitely gotten brain damage because
she had sleeping pills, iron pills, and apparently Mary, sorry Betty,
would feed the pills to Mary and tell them they
were candy. There are some people who now say that

(31:27):
they think Betty probably had Munchausens by proxy, which is
the fascinating disease where a parent gets addicted to the
attention and sympathy that they get from a sick child
and so they make the child sick on purpose. It's
basically what happened in the movie seven when he when

(31:49):
the barfing girl finally brings him.

Speaker 1 (31:51):
Back to her. That's a great scene. No, not seven,
fucking the other number movie. This sixth sense. Our brains
are sinking up because that was just, oh, you know,
what's so hilarious.

Speaker 2 (32:06):
Yeah, we're We're it's like our mistake. Brains are like no, no, no.
I did the same thing where when I was talking
about the polyclass murder, I called it. I called it
clover Field, which is a movie, and the city name
where her body was found as Cloverdale. And Adrian, my
friend that yeah, but I think I only said it once.

(32:29):
Adrian texted me and she's like, dude, it's Cloverdale. You
you went there for softball games? What are you doing?
And I was just like, She's like, I'm the only
one to notice, but seriously.

Speaker 1 (32:38):
It's Cloverdale. Yeah, grow up. Maybe you were just trying
to protect the town so people like so the loky
louse wouldn't show up there. That's right, that's what you
were doing.

Speaker 2 (32:46):
Just stay away from Cloverfield. So bad news obviously, And
in her upbringing and so of course at school, Mary
was known as a chronic liar, disruptive peopil. She on
occasion would voice her desire to hurt people.

Speaker 1 (33:06):
She did a lot of.

Speaker 2 (33:07):
Kicking and punching and lying, and so all the kids
they would make fun of her a lot because she
was just basically a monster and a mess. And later
on it Sorry, I was just trying to figure out
where when a good But basically later on it came

(33:29):
to be discovered that Mary's mother would use her and
sell her in prostitution as well from the age of four.
So she, I guess this is another thing that does
fascinate me. This is another thing that, like that kind
of trauma can affect you and does affect your personality.

(33:50):
So she was subjected to really awful things at such
a young age that they think that that probably plays
into the psychopathy and the behavior.

Speaker 1 (34:02):
Yeah, you're like, this isn't a safe world. World. Nothing
is safe. I need to fucking defend myself and.

Speaker 2 (34:09):
I want to start hurting others the way I'm being here,
And it's a way they's normal.

Speaker 1 (34:12):
It's the way children.

Speaker 2 (34:13):
Yeah, it's the way children communicate that they're being hurt
when they know they're not allowed to talk about it. Right, fascinating, totally, Okay. So,
on May twenty fifth, nineteen sixty eight, two boys playing
in an abandoned house found the corpse of four year
old Martin Brown lying.

Speaker 1 (34:30):
In an upstairs room.

Speaker 2 (34:32):
Mary Bell and her friend Norma Bell, who was not
related to her, they just had the same last name.
Followed the boys inside the house, and when the police arrived,
the two girls had to be ordered out. So they
really liked looking at this dead were they? Mary was
just about to turn eleven and Norma Bell was thirteen,

(34:53):
but Mary was the dominant of the two, like a
little more mature and smart. There was no obvious cause
of death, so it was assumed that Martin Brown had
swallowed pills from a discarded bottle, which was found nearby.
So the next day, Norma Bell's father caught Mary choking

(35:14):
Norma and he slapped her face and sent her home.

Speaker 1 (35:17):
He's choking. She was choking her so bad. Holy shit.

Speaker 2 (35:21):
The day after this little boy died, and later that
same day a local nursery school was vandalized and police
discovered notes that read fuck off, spelt.

Speaker 1 (35:34):
F U c h O, f.

Speaker 2 (35:37):
We murder, watch out, fanny, and faggot. Faggot does not
mean faggot in England. Just quick reminder to everybody. I
think it means cigarette, yeah, but bundalow sticks fanny means
your pussy. Yeah in over there, at least I know

(35:58):
it doesn't. Yeah, yeah, So I think they're just trying
to write Okay.

Speaker 1 (36:04):
I'm not sure.

Speaker 2 (36:05):
Maybe they meant it bad. If they're writing fanny, they
might have meant faggot in the bad way.

Speaker 1 (36:09):
Who knows.

Speaker 2 (36:10):
They also wrote we did murder Martin Brown, fuck off
you bastard again off with one F, so it really
says fuck of fuck up. The cops dismissed the answer.
When they found the writing, they dismissed it as a prank.
So four days later, Mary Bell appeared at the Brown
residence asking to see Martin, and when she was reminded

(36:33):
that Martin.

Speaker 1 (36:34):
Was dead, wait, she showed up. She showed up at the.

Speaker 2 (36:38):
Dead boy's house asking to see him, and when the
adult that answered the door reminded her that Martin was dead,
it was the mother that answered the door, and when
the mother said he's dead, Mary said, Oh, I know
he's dead. I want to see him in his coffin.

Speaker 1 (36:52):
Oh my god, could you Oh what would you do?
I'd scream? I'd run screaming.

Speaker 2 (36:58):
I mean a little girl too, Yeah, who's yeah?

Speaker 1 (37:04):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (37:04):
So two months later, three year old Brian Howe goes
missing and immediate search is mounted, and Mary Bell tells
Brian's sister that he might be playing on a heap
of concrete blocks that had been dumped out in a
nearby vacant lot, and which is where he was discovered
dead from manual strangulation, legs and stomach and penis mutilated

(37:28):
with a razor and a pair of scissors. The police
discover at the scene the letters M and N were
scratched into his stomach.

Speaker 1 (37:36):
Fuck.

Speaker 2 (37:36):
So, as the investigation narrows, Mary So, somebody that had
been walking by said they saw kids around that pile
of stones that day, and then when they took the
three year old's body into the corner, he said, it

(37:57):
looks like he's strangled, but it such light force that
I think we're looking at a child murderer. So then
the cops went around and started interviewing all the kids
in the neighborhood, and Mary and Norma were both dinged
right away because their stories kept changing.

Speaker 1 (38:17):
Mary acted super weird.

Speaker 2 (38:19):
They got freaked out by how creepy and weird she was,
and Norma couldn't stop giggling. Holy So Mary, when the
investigation got narrowed onto Mary Bell, she suddenly remembered seeing
an eight year old boy with Brian on the day
he died, and she said that the boy hit Brian

(38:40):
for no reason, and that she said that same boy
had been playing with broken scissors.

Speaker 1 (38:48):
But the boy she was naming a specific boy.

Speaker 2 (38:50):
She was basically trying to pin it on him, but
he had been at the airport that afternoon. And so
the thing that Mary didn't know is that the scissors
were confident, dential evidence. No one knew about the scissors
that was a.

Speaker 1 (39:04):
Public when you're a fucking ten year old murderer, is
that you didn't You don't understand.

Speaker 2 (39:09):
You can't keep your shit in line, dude. Yeah, so baffling.
She essentially implicates herself with the scissor comment, and she
had described them exactly, so she's trying to pin it
on the other boy, and in doing so, she's like
they were silver colored and there was something wrong with them,
like one leg was either broken or bent. So she

(39:32):
basically describes the exact scissors to a tea.

Speaker 1 (39:34):
I mean smart, smart, smart investigating by the cops that
they like figured the shit out pretty quickly.

Speaker 2 (39:41):
And can you imagine sitting in an in a room
across from an eleven year old girl when you see
this picture, big blue eyes, little button.

Speaker 1 (39:51):
Nose, kind of vacant. Just think baby Karen, but just
think baby Karen. I was a precious lamp.

Speaker 2 (39:57):
But she's lying to you, so you're buying her at first,
and then she give she does the old inglorious bastard's
holding up a.

Speaker 1 (40:07):
Three, and you don't even want it to be true,
like you're not even like we're going to get this guy.
It's like, wait a second, you just said this wrong thing.

Speaker 2 (40:15):
Creepy enough that the coroner says, you're probably gonna want
to look for a kid because a kid strangled a
three year old.

Speaker 1 (40:21):
So you probably don't want it to be true, probably
children of your own. And this little girl is.

Speaker 2 (40:25):
Like, yeah, the scissors, I mean, the children go down
your back. So so uh okay, I did the slidey
thing again, which I always do. So. Brian Howe was
buried on August seventh, and the investigative detective was named

(40:49):
Detective Dobson, and he was there and he says, Mary
Bell was standing in front of the house house when
the coffin was brought out. I of course was watching her,
and it was when I saw her there that I
knew I did not dare risk another day. She stood
there laughing, laughing and rubbing her hands. I thought, my god,

(41:12):
I've got to bring her in or she'll do another one.

Speaker 1 (41:14):
Holy shit. So they bring in Mary Bill. Why are
you laughing? A psychopathic? Because it's me. She's also rubbing
her hands together right now.

Speaker 2 (41:26):
No, because I'm picturing it, and it's like, how they
why don't they make this movie? It's the creepiest thing
of all time. This is like The Ring, except for
the girl has her hair back out of her face
and she's like she thinks she's getting away with it.
She wanted to kill that little kid. She killed him,

(41:47):
and then she wanted to see his dead body get
carried out of the house.

Speaker 1 (41:51):
It's just what's so crazy is the like you know,
when you when adults kill, they like try really hard
to hide it and try to outsmart people. That's like
what you do. But this little person, who I guess
you can argue, didn't understand that either death was permanent
or what it meant.

Speaker 2 (42:09):
Maybe maybe maybe, or she enjoyed the feeling so much
that she had done it. She you know, because there
was some killer that we talked about where they said,
I want people to feel on the outside the way
I feel on the inside.

Speaker 1 (42:23):
Was that that one of those Cheshire murders? Yeah? Oh?
Or was it the person you talked about? I think no.
Either way, this is a factual, sexual, fact based.

Speaker 2 (42:37):
It's that thing of like when you finally feel right
in the world, is when like, that's how she felt right.
She killed that she had the power to take his
life away and put him in that box. She finally
had power, But she also had to be a little
bit like arrested in her in. Yes, she couldn't be

(42:58):
smart enough. She couldn't have been smarter than a ten
year old. She was just didn't understand, right, Oh no,
I'm wrong, you don't think so, go on, because.

Speaker 1 (43:09):
This is where it gets crazy.

Speaker 2 (43:10):
This is where this is where well, this is where
it shows that she was raised by two criminals because
her mother ended up marrying I think his name is
Billy Bell, and he was like a career criminal. And
so they clearly talked about being arrested, going in and
out of jail and all this stuff. Because when she's arrested,
first of all, when they say you are going to

(43:32):
be charged with murder, she said, that's all right by me.

Speaker 1 (43:35):
Whow and uh she she sorry.

Speaker 2 (43:48):
When she was in jail. There was a stray cat
in jail. Fuck and elviser, Yeah, Elvis, you're not going
to like this. She grabbed the cat tightly by the
neck and the guard told her not to hurt the cat,
and Mary allegedly replied, Oh, she doesn't feel that in
any way. I like hurting little things that can't fight back.

(44:12):
In another incident, a policewoman said that Mary said she'd
like to be a nurse quote because then I can
stick needles into people. I like hurting people.

Speaker 1 (44:23):
Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (44:26):
So there was kind of a naive quality about it. Then,
also the jailers once she was in there, she calmed
down a little bit after a while, and a lot
of the jailers liked her, the guards, you know, because
they said she was very smart, she was very sharp,
but she was a chronic bedwetter. Yeah, and she's got

(44:48):
one of the pieces, probably too, if we count those
being overdosed on drugs by your mother and dropped out
of a window.

Speaker 1 (44:55):
Sure probably got two at least. What's the other one?
Fire fire?

Speaker 2 (45:00):
Yeah, okay, no report of fire on her. But she
was terrified of going to sleep because she was afraid.
She was going to wet the bed, and she said
to one of the guards, I usually do. And at home,
her mother would humiliate her anytime she wet the bed,

(45:21):
so she would rub her daughter's face in the pea
when she found it, and she would hang the mattress
outside so the neighborhood would see it.

Speaker 1 (45:31):
And we also all know that chronic bed wedding is
a sign that you're being sexually molested, especially abused. It
can be.

Speaker 2 (45:38):
I was a chronic bed wedder until I was like nine,
and I was not molest me neither, but it is
a sign. It's like it's one of those things that
harming animals, like all those things. That's a child that's
in trauma and in danger. Definitely, it signs up definitely.
So when they went to trial, Norma was a quit

(46:00):
of all charges and Mary was convicted of two counts
of manslaughter.

Speaker 1 (46:05):
So I think.

Speaker 2 (46:05):
It They say that Norma was there. Norma had like
eight brothers and sisters or some huge family, and their
whole family was there supporting her, and she did a
lot of crying on the stand and saying Mary did it,
Mary did it, and Mary did the same thing, or
saying Norman did it, but all she had was her
lunatic mother who was wearing a blonde wig and would

(46:29):
freak out so much and cry and do all these
things that her wig would fall off, and then she
would get up and run out of the courtroom and
then come back. And so because of that, munch Housband's
by proxy like this was her drama. She was basically,
you know, say, in the very slight chance that Mary
wasn't guilty, she was condemning her anyway, because no one

(46:52):
had sympathy for that family, whereas everyone was like, oh,
this little girl's just been set up by Mary bell
and then in the tabloid Mary Bellby just became just
the face of evil. For years and years, they didn't
have anywhere to put her because they didn't have they
had never had to deal with sending an eleven year

(47:13):
old girl to jail, So there was like lots of
places for juvi for little boys, but none for little girls.

Speaker 1 (47:19):
So they had to keep her.

Speaker 2 (47:21):
They kept her in like a separate quarters in a
boy's detention center wow for a long time until she
was in her teens. When she was in her teens,
she escaped jail for a little while with two other boys,
but then they were only gone for two weeks and
then they went back.

Speaker 1 (47:37):
She spent.

Speaker 2 (47:40):
Up until her like I can't, I don't, I can't
find it now. I think it was like in her
mid twenties in jail, and then when she got out,
all of England was like freaking out. They were super pissed.
She made money off a book that someone wrote about her.
Again they were like, we need to pass laws, you
know whatever. There's a really good movie about adult Mary

(48:04):
Bell still in the prison system and about to get out,
that stars Emily Watson and Jim that amazing British actor.
So good in it. But I'll find the name of it,
but it's it's so good. I would recommend it to anybody,
but it is. It's the it's a dramatic version.

Speaker 1 (48:23):
I don't I'm not sure. I think it was.

Speaker 2 (48:26):
Made for TV in England. Yeah, so it's but Emily
Watson is the star. So if you look up Mary
Bell Emily Watson.

Speaker 1 (48:33):
You'll find it. I'll put a photo of it on Instagram.

Speaker 2 (48:36):
Yeah, I can look it up right now. But it's
it's worth watching because they are very empathetic to her
and even though she's like criminal behavior. They they really
attribute all of the they attribute both of the killings

(48:57):
to her abusive terrible childhood. Wow, But I don't know
the things those things of, Like it's one thing the
stories of like the stuff she'd say to the cops,
because she would say stuff like are you going to
charge me?

Speaker 1 (49:11):
Like she she had a lot of very adult.

Speaker 2 (49:12):
Vocabulary about being in jail and being arrested, you know,
probably because of her parents.

Speaker 1 (49:20):
But so did she She got out and then what she.

Speaker 2 (49:24):
Ended up becoming a grandmother, like a mother and a grandmother.
She got pregnant. I don't think she got married and
then she was.

Speaker 1 (49:33):
Did she change her name?

Speaker 2 (49:35):
There was they passed a thing where they kept her Yeah,
she's she now lives under a pseudonym, and they, like
the British people, wanted that repeal. They wanted to make
her live as herself, but they they whatever, They continued
the ruling that she could live under a pseudonym for

(49:56):
the rest.

Speaker 1 (49:56):
Of her life. I wonder if her family even knows.
Imagine finding when your grandma dies and you go on
her stuff and find her fucking birth certificate. They must know, right,
may I bet me? I don't know? Why would you
tell them. I don't know. Would you want to know

(50:19):
if someone in my family was a murderer, if your
mom had been a murderer.

Speaker 2 (50:22):
Yes, I mean if me right now, yes.

Speaker 1 (50:26):
Yeah, if that would be I don't think i'd want
to find out if my grandma had been a murderer. No,
I don't think I want to know.

Speaker 2 (50:36):
You would not because you just wanted to keep her
as you know her. Yeah, you know, yeah that makes sense.

Speaker 1 (50:45):
Especially especially at that age. It would make me so
sad for her. Yeah, she you know that. I don't
know what else. I can't find this movie. I don't care.
Tell me more. Sorry, No, that's all I have. Okay,

(51:05):
that's a good one. She's a good one. She's a
good one.

Speaker 2 (51:08):
Also, I have this very bad habit where once the
actual murder is over, m hmm. I know people like
the facts and stuff like that, but it's.

Speaker 1 (51:18):
All wrapping up too. I don't care. Listen, we don't
care about the fifteen hundreds. Oh, we don't care about.

Speaker 2 (51:25):
I just wanted to talk about a child. Murdering a
child is insanity. But if you were like hiking through
the forest next to that empty lot, and you fucking
looked over that is the most upsetting, and saw the
kid killing the kid, a little girl strangling a three
year old. It's insanity.

Speaker 1 (51:43):
I just don't think that they have the capacity to
understand what they don't like, what like when she said
the thing about the cat, it doesn't hurt the cat. Yes,
I don't think she understood other people, and partly because
probably she was psycho, but probably also because she was
too young to know the permanence of death.

Speaker 2 (52:05):
Yeah, yeah, those are big, those are big concepts. But
also if she was a true psychopath, which the doctors
in the in the trial said she was a child psychopath,
that's very dangerous to other children. But that means that
she doesn't have any empathy, So of course she wouldn't
think it would hurt the cat because she doesn't.

Speaker 1 (52:27):
Think of anything else as having emotions. And yeah, well,
so those two kids who kidnapped a little a younger,
a toddler from the mall, a mall in England, what
was her names? Those boys, these little boys, Yeah, and
they killed him. The weirdest part of that whole story,
which I'll never do because everyone fucking knows it and
I just don't Bulgar was his last name Bulgar. Anyways,

(52:48):
they shoved a battery up his butt, and to me,
that is such a single that they didn't understand, like
they were trying to get him to work again. Oh
he was dead when they did that. And to me,
it's like I could be completely wrong they were just
it's a theory though, that's interesting. They might have just
been sotomizing him and being horrible.

Speaker 2 (53:08):
And well and also they could be that could have
like they could be mimicking what was happening to one
of totals of them.

Speaker 1 (53:15):
Totally, but a battery specifically, it's almost a little toy.

Speaker 2 (53:18):
Yeah, like that wondered how it is on like an
adult that.

Speaker 1 (53:21):
Yeah, those kids are also fucking changed their names and
are out now.

Speaker 2 (53:26):
Really Yeah, because they're out and living. Yeah, because it
happened so long ago. I mean in this movie, in
the Mary Belle movie, it is very convincing of like
it's something she did as a damage damaged child and
now she's don't let her have a life. She's paid
the price for being in jail for twenty five years
or whatever it is.

Speaker 1 (53:47):
Yeah, but I bet the people who don't argue that,
as the parents and the families that the chilttle music
got killed.

Speaker 2 (53:52):
You know who are like now she's often having a
life and now she's a grandmother and they don't have anything.

Speaker 1 (53:56):
Yeah, no, I know, it's rough. It's crazy. What's your
favorite murder of the week? Mine is also a chi
is it really? This is a wrong episode for parents.
It is very weird. That's crazy, very weird. But this

(54:19):
is this is why this is a parent a parental murder,
and this one stuck with me for all has stuck
with me. I've read about it for a long time
because there's a photograph of the little girl who gets killed.

Speaker 2 (54:32):
Oh you're you're saying the child is murdered, child child murder, Yes,
got it.

Speaker 1 (54:39):
So there's a photo of the little girl the day
before her death. That really fucking stuck with me. I
hope that. Do you hear that? Yes? It sounds like
thunder My fucking downstairs neighbor plays, uh some video game
World of War. Call of duty? Yes, call of duty,
And it's just so if you hear that, I'm sorry.
So Lisa Steinberg's poor lion, that's the one. That's the one. God,

(55:03):
it's heartbreaking. This is the worst story. Okay, Sorry, it's okay. No,
you're right, I'm breathing, not because I'm okay. So it's
in nineteen eighty one, forty five year old Heda news
Bomb and forty six year old Joel Steinberg, who was
a defense attorney who sometimes handled adoption cases. Joel was
they took custody of an infant girl named that they

(55:25):
named Lisa, and they illegally adopted her. The child's birth
mother had paid Steinberg, the attorney, a five hundred dollars
legal fee, to place the child with a Roman Catholic family,
but they just kept her instead. They were Jewish. I
don't know, I don't think that matters, but they why whatever? Anyways,
So this Hetta and Joel were a well educated They

(55:47):
were upper class New York couple. They lived in Greenwich
Village in New York City. At school, Lisa's teachers said
she was bright and friendly, but they worried about her
writing at school with bruises and chunks of hair missing
from her head, and she would tell them that her
little brother, who was also a younger it was an
adopted child, had hit her, and none of them had

(56:09):
ever made of reports of abuse, which changed a lot
of stuff in the system. So there's a photo from Halloween,
the day before this big incident happens, that one of
the teachers took of Lisa and all the other photos
of her. She's smiling and cute and lovely. Are you
looking at it right now? No, get off your computer?
What do you do? What are you looking at? I

(56:30):
was trying to find that movie name. Sorry? Sorry that
so Rude's okay, It's okay. And it's just a photo
of her at her desk. It's Halloween. All the other
children are dressed up, and she's wearing her normal clothes
and she's just kind of staring off and this with
this sad face, like an empty sad face. And the

(56:52):
next day, on November first, nineteen eighty seven, had the
mother calls the police to report that her daughter had
choked on food. That's what she said. And when the
police arrived, they found six year old Lisa Steinberg unconscious
and she had multiple bruises on her body. And the
mother had a claim that she had fallen a lot

(57:13):
lately on her roller skates, but Lisa was nude and had,
according to the examiners from Saint Vincent Hospital, huge, a
huge reddish bruise on her scalp starting at the hairline,
bruises and cuts that looked like someone had socked her
on the chin, and old healing marks on different of

(57:35):
different colors on virtually every other part of her body.
I know. And the little brother, who I think was
a toddler or a baby, was found roped to a chair,
was drinking spoiled milk and was covered in filth. And
this is an upper upper class Greenwich Village apartment, so

(57:55):
fucking neighbors had to know about this. So, according to
initial reports, on November one, at around seven pm, Joel
Steinberg had somehow rendered Lisa unconscious with severe blows to
the head, and Heta later said as the reasoning was

(58:16):
that Lisa wanted to go quote, Lisa wanted to go
to dinner with her father, but he did not want
to take her, and then he inflicted the head injury
because she wouldn't stop bugging him. I wanted to go
to dinner before he left the but before he left
the apartment, Lisa was unconscious, so he left and the mother, Heda,
was alone with the kid who was dying for roughly
ten hours, failing to notify police or medical personnel. Joel

(58:44):
left and came back many times. They were freebasing cocaine,
sometimes together because they were also like weird drug addicts. Yeah,
and she says she didn't Hada said she didn't call
authorities because she believe that Joel had supernatural healing powers
and she was waiting for him to come home and

(59:05):
fix her, which we'll get into in a bit. Don't
do drugs.

Speaker 2 (59:09):
If you're going to do drugs, don't adopt children's stupid motherfuckers.

Speaker 1 (59:13):
So around six am the next morning, Lisa stopped breathing,
and shortly after Steinberg called nine one one at news
bombs urging. Lisa died four days later in the hospital,
and it was the term of the cause of death
was a head injury, apparently inflicted by what they say
was a rubber headed hammer. Holy shit, I know it's

(59:34):
heartbreaking the Saint Vincent doctors. This is according to Joyce Johnson,
who wrote a book called What Lisa Knew. The doctor
showed a quote map of pain on her body. Yeah,
you know, this poor little thing. Man. I wish, I wish.
I They also, let's see, the house was filthy and

(59:56):
contained large quantities of cocaine and other drugs, and the
Cup was arrested on child to beast charges. New York
law states stated at the time that if one parent
beats a child and the other stays silent about it,
each is equally guilty. But it's good, I know. But
Hetta was late. I mean is it because is that

(01:00:16):
giving any understanding to the to the other parent who
didn't do it, who was probably abused as well and victimized.
We don't know. But here's here's the Heta was later
found to have been abused by Joel throughout their relationship.
She suffered from nine broken ribs, a broken jaw, and

(01:00:37):
a broken nose. And if you look at photos of
her at this trial and right after this happened, this
person is fucking disfigured. Yes, like this person's that she
had to get cartilage from her quote good ear taken
out to reconstruct her nose, which had collapsed.

Speaker 2 (01:00:53):
Because he'd punched her so many times.

Speaker 1 (01:00:55):
Yeah. So she wasn't prosecuted due to the belief that
years of a blue abuse had rendered her incompetent at
the time of the murder. And instead that makes sense. Yeah,
and yeah, let's we'll talk about fucking culpability man. Instead,
she was sent to a psychiatric hospital. When the cops

(01:01:15):
said that when they opened, when she opened the door
to let them in, when to help Lisa. She had
at that moment two black eyes, a split lip, the
bridge of her nose was gone, and shards of bony
cartilage were protruded and out of her nose. She had
a bandage wrapped around her frizzled gray hair to hide
spots where clumps had been torn out. She was hunched

(01:01:36):
and moved painfully like an old woman. Oh my god.
In exchange for her testimony against Joel, Hedo is not prosecuted,
and Joel was charged with first degree manslaughter. So the trial, huh, okay,
go ahead, why not murder? I don't know, I don't

(01:02:00):
mean okay, oh you know what? Because later it was
said that if Hada had called the ambulance at that moment,
Lisa would have survived for sure.

Speaker 2 (01:02:14):
So so it wasn't his intent to murder when he
did kill her?

Speaker 1 (01:02:21):
Right, Jesus Christ, breathing, breathing, breathing, breathing, What was just
right now, seafoam green wall.

Speaker 2 (01:02:29):
We're here in twenty sixteen and not in eighties New
York in this horrible apartment.

Speaker 1 (01:02:33):
What do you feel under your hand?

Speaker 2 (01:02:35):
When I just remembered as you were talking describing her appearance,
there was an amazing article in Oprah's magazine that she
had aness bound.

Speaker 1 (01:02:45):
Wrote, well, she wrote a book, did she? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:02:47):
I bet that was just publicity then, and it was
just an excerpt from the book. It was unbelievable.

Speaker 1 (01:02:52):
She wrote a book about she does like talks and
about being ab abusive relationships, and she wrote a book
about about it that I didn't really want to include
because I don't want to make this note. Okay, you
know what I mean. Yeah, but we you know I'm
not she wrote a book.

Speaker 2 (01:03:06):
It's just the side by side of her when she
was young, when she first met him, and when she
was arrested.

Speaker 1 (01:03:12):
Is crazy.

Speaker 2 (01:03:13):
She looks like an old witch and she was this
gorgeous young New York woman. Yeah, when I when she
met it.

Speaker 1 (01:03:19):
I mean, this is the problem is I've never been
and it's not a problem. This is great. I've never
been in an abusive relationship before, so I don't know
the fucking the head games and the and the the
way you have to rationalize nationalizing in your head because
this person you care about, you know, is doing these things,

(01:03:42):
and you want to believe that that they have no
control over it, that they're not doing it on purpose,
that they would never hurt you. Otherwise your whole fucking
world is just shattered. And that's right insane. And on
top of that, they're using strong they're freebasing at this point.

Speaker 2 (01:03:54):
I mean, freebasing cocaine is like, you're you're doing crack,
your crackhead, you're a psychopath.

Speaker 1 (01:04:00):
Yeah, okay, and they were. There was also some weird
like cult stuff and they had been convincing her that
she like mind games with her, that she had been
sleeping around and had been hypnotized, and there was just
some very fucked up mind games with the schedule. So

(01:04:20):
so all right, so the trial, So this is actually
the first trial which made New York, which turned New
York into the forty fourth state to allow television cameras
in the courtroom. Oh was like, yeah, fucking watch, like
people tuned in constantly for this. Hada testified that they
were clear signs of sexual abuse on Lisa in nineteen

(01:04:42):
eighty three, when Lisa was two years old, but that
she did nothing about it. She said that her discovery came.
So Lisa had spent three weeks with a Long Island
couple that they had partied with, that the couple partied
with just let them say with this couple and what yeah, yeah, okay,
go ahead, now you go nothing. I just I'm discussed.

(01:05:04):
That's disgusting telling everything. It's very upsetting. And had I said,
I guess I was changing her diaper. I observed a
bruise on her vagina, a large bruise over her vaginal area.
It was purplish, black and blue. She said she did nothing,
and under cross examination, yeah, she said she did nothing

(01:05:24):
about it because she took it to Joel and thought
he would handle it. I hope I'm not. I hope
everyone isn't listening. That's it did happened. And oh one
other thing that when she had a quoted that when
he hit her and Lisa and she went unconscious, he
yelled to how to look at what you made me do?
Oh wow? So during the trial that yeah, they said

(01:05:48):
that Lisa's injuries were severe, but she would have almost
certainly survived if given prompt medical treatment. So this is
probably why he had Man's laughter. So the jury wanted
to convict Steinberg on the more serious charge of second
degree murder, but they couldn't because so they could only
convict him of the of the second of the second

(01:06:10):
most serious charge, which is first degree manslaughter. So the
judge then sentenced him to the maximum penalty then available.
Guess guess how long that is, Karen God?

Speaker 2 (01:06:22):
Is it seven years eight and one third to twenty
five years in prison? And he's a lawyer, right, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:06:30):
So on two occasions, so Steinberg served his time on
two occasions. He was denied discretionary parole because he never
expressed any remorse for the killing. He never said he
was he hit her. He was always an argument that
something must have happened with Heda, Yeah, with the girl.
But on June thirtieth, two thousand and four, he was

(01:06:53):
paroled under the States quote good time law. I mean
he did good time. He was a good inmate. Congress
to fucking elations. He wasn't a good father.

Speaker 2 (01:07:03):
Yeah, he was a rotten father and husband's insane, all right, Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:07:09):
It mandates the release of inmates who exhibit good behavior
while incarcerated after having served as little as two thirds
of the maximum impossible sentence. After his release, he moved
to Harlem and he works in the construction industry. He
continues to maintain his innocence. But there was this really
great New York magazine article where this journalist I don't

(01:07:31):
have his name, was like clearly like this guy's full
of shit. He was interviewing his attorney, who's like just
a fucking dick lick motherfucker. Excuse me? Why now?

Speaker 2 (01:07:46):
What? Why do we say fuck every five seconds? Why
excuse myself? Excuse me? Excuse me for that?

Speaker 1 (01:07:52):
Something about dick lick motherfucker was a little more that
was one step too far. Weirdly, that's something I say
on the regular dick wick motherfucker. Learn it in the
magazine article, he like needled Joel, and finally Steinberg finally
admitted that he quote pushed his daughter a little quote
with the soft pad, you know, on your palm. He

(01:08:15):
finally kind of gave in because the whole article they
were trying to the lawyer was trying to make it
seem like Joel was the victim of this like media
slander to make how to look innocent and him look guilty,
And it's like just what a piece of shit. Yet,
in two thousand and three, Steinberg was ordered to pay

(01:08:36):
Lisa's biological mother, the one who gave her up for adoption,
fifteen million for the quote heinous, outrageous crime of murdering Lisa,
which I'm a little at, like, do you deserve that money? No?

Speaker 2 (01:08:49):
But still I like the idea he has to pay.

Speaker 1 (01:08:53):
And then but then a civil suit had a was
one to collect three point six million from Joel for
eight years of beating she said she endured and the
permanent disfigurement she has suffered, which at that point I'm
a little like, this child died, you need to walk
the fuck away? Yeah? Or am I being insensitive?

Speaker 2 (01:09:17):
I mean, there's a lot of ways that we can
offend people in this, but here's this is my stance,
because I.

Speaker 1 (01:09:24):
Remounting money is like the wanting money is bullshit.

Speaker 2 (01:09:27):
Because you I understand that she was in an abusive relationship.
I also understand that she was a drug addict, which
is a lot of people don't have empathy for that.

Speaker 1 (01:09:38):
I do.

Speaker 2 (01:09:39):
And I understand that you go into a place that
is inexplicable and indefensible a lot of the time, Yes,
you don't ask for money for doing that. You make reparations,
You fix your life, you make your amends, you clear
away the wreckage of your past. You don't ask to
be paid for the thing you fucked up.

Speaker 1 (01:10:00):
Thing about it is like you were an adult in
this relationship, as mind fucked as you were, as victimized
as you were. You stayed in it. You chose to
stay in it until this awful thing happened. If that
hadn't happened, you would have stayed in it and the
children would have still been abused. It's just so happens

(01:10:21):
that that Lisa died that you got out of it, right,
And there's so many examples I'm sure listeners too, who
have figured out a way to get out of abusive
relationships and how fucking difficult it is and awful it is,
but you fucking do it. And that's your choice as
an adult, right. So the fact that this woman who
had a choice to be in this relationship.

Speaker 2 (01:10:42):
And then after a while it wants money, didn't have Yeah,
the money part is problematic because it's she is a
victim in a lot of ways, but she's also a victimizer. Yeah,
and there were two children in that apartment. I remember
reading something where they usually kept the little boy under
a flipped over crib, so like a little jail, that

(01:11:05):
that's how they kept him. I mean, yeah, it's just
so fucked up. It's like I read. I actually when
that all happened, I read everything I could read about
it because I couldn't.

Speaker 1 (01:11:16):
Believe it when it happened.

Speaker 2 (01:11:18):
Yeah, when it happened, So I was probably like twelve
or thirteen, I got my hands on anything because it
was beyond. These weren't like people that you normally saw
on TV that.

Speaker 1 (01:11:28):
Were the bad guys.

Speaker 2 (01:11:29):
These were upscale New Yorkers whose lives had spiraled because
of drugs. But they didn't just spiral like oh now
we're homeless. Oh now it's all on us.

Speaker 1 (01:11:38):
We're bad.

Speaker 2 (01:11:39):
They they made these children live in hell, and they
killed these children essentially.

Speaker 1 (01:11:44):
And I mean not to fucking defend drug addicts, which
we've both been so it's not like I'm fucking talking shit,
but like, not all or not all drug addicts abused children. No,
that's like something you would do before you do drugs too.
It's not like took drugs and became a child abuser.

Speaker 2 (01:12:02):
But I do remember reading something hadn't that article I
read it of that was probably an expert excerpt from
headed Nisbaum's book talking about what an insane control freaks
from day one he was and how awful he was
and whatever it you got into it like it. It's

(01:12:25):
you could see it. You could see where she got
led down that path. But yeah, the idea that she's
going to get any amount of money, like the idea
that she would even ask for that money, I just
think is super gross.

Speaker 1 (01:12:38):
It's asking for it that immediately puts her in an
unsympathetic light, I mean from a distance.

Speaker 2 (01:12:46):
Also, there was an episode were you you were probably
too young. There's a show called The Equalizer when I
was growing up, and it was basically they remade it
into a movie with Denzel but when I was growing up,
it was an old white haired man that would that
was basically like some kind of x CIA or whatever

(01:13:07):
who would get hired when things were really bad and
there's no cops couldn't help and no one could help.

Speaker 1 (01:13:13):
That's when you call the Equalizer.

Speaker 2 (01:13:14):
You should I know that, you know what?

Speaker 1 (01:13:15):
I know that. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:13:16):
The opening credits for The Equalizer alone are worth watch.

Speaker 1 (01:13:20):
I love it.

Speaker 2 (01:13:21):
But there was an there was an episode of The
Equalizer after this story came out that was so fucking
upsetting because it was a little girl whose father was
this fucking abusive maniac. But the parents weren't like coke heads,
they were like crazy rich, and it was this father
that would like they'd all had to sit at the table.

(01:13:42):
And it was really really really upsetting it and uh,
theoretically was like kind of like a reaction of like
it was one of those rip from the headlines, yeah
kind of thing what it's.

Speaker 1 (01:13:54):
Like day to day in reality. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:13:56):
People, And by the end, I think this little girl
that The Equalizer was trying to help, I'm talking about
this like it's real. But anyway, it was just that
kind of thing that was very It pervaded the culture
of that story.

Speaker 1 (01:14:06):
People went insane about that story.

Speaker 2 (01:14:09):
I totally remember it.

Speaker 1 (01:14:12):
It's so troubling and I think I couldn't find it,
but I want to. I want to see the laws
that were changed because of this, because I remember reading
at some point that there was like a uh, you
must if you suspect abuse, especially for the teachers, I
think you have to report it. Yeah, like there because
there's some kind of a law came about because of that,

(01:14:34):
but I couldn't find anything.

Speaker 2 (01:14:35):
Well, the idea that the doctors were saying her body
was a map of pain.

Speaker 1 (01:14:38):
Yeah, and then the teachers. The teachers were like, yeah,
we saw that. They didn't even say like we never
saw science. They saw it.

Speaker 2 (01:14:46):
Also, the idea that abusing a two year old is
so fucking disgusting, like when head have found that the
sexual abuse, like you think of about that of like,
who were those fucking people?

Speaker 1 (01:15:02):
Who? What was wrong with her that she didn't this
was her mother that she didn't immediately think to herself,
my child is the important part. Yes, yeah, Like you
take her to one hospital to get treatment for any
of these things, and it's an investigation is going to start,
Like right, you know, he left for dinner and was

(01:15:23):
gone for hours, and you were with her for ten
hours and never a moment crossed your mind to go
go across the hall to your neighbors and saying you'd
go called you don't have to call my woman yourself.

Speaker 2 (01:15:34):
But like, but I think there was stories about the
fact that she never left that apartment, right, Like, she
did not leave it, and she didn't wear normal clothes
I think it was always pajamas, right, I mean, yeah,
I you remind me of this crime. I absolutely have
to read a book on it now because I remember,
like I have everything is you know?

Speaker 1 (01:15:55):
Well, this guy from the New York Magazine article says
that the art book by fuck Oh Joyce Johnson called
What Lisa Knew was really good. Okay, so maybe we
should both read that. Yes, let's do that. Did you
finish the Ted Bundy book yet?

Speaker 2 (01:16:09):
I'm like, I think I have like three chapters left.

Speaker 1 (01:16:12):
Did you? I recently was reading there was a Reddit
ama that someone posted on the Facebook page an amat
the psychologist in the prison who who was the first
psychologist to like discuss talk with Ted Bundy. Ted Bundy
called him the first time he escaped off a payphon.
I was like hey, like and so he was like
an ask me anything. Wasn't like super in depth and great,

(01:16:34):
but it was cool. I sent it to you. Was it?

Speaker 2 (01:16:36):
It's not the one that got recorded, is it? Because
there's a video of him talking to a guy.

Speaker 1 (01:16:41):
No, yeah, got recorded that he didn't post it audio
audiit video.

Speaker 2 (01:16:44):
Yeah, Okay, there's a video of Ted Bundy being interviewed
that I can't watch. Oh my god, I've tried to
watch it, and I don't want to watch him sit
calmly and discuss himself like he's a star.

Speaker 1 (01:16:57):
That pisses me off. What does he talk about?

Speaker 2 (01:17:00):
He I think he's being interviewed by a cop. Oh
my god, but I but I'm not sure.

Speaker 1 (01:17:06):
I can't wait. I've never watched it. And she did
like a special like and we both talk about this. Yeah,
Ted Bundy, somehow, let's do that. We can like split
it up into parts. But that's what kid. This like
weird playboy photo of him where he's like half naked.
Have you seen this, like naked on a bear rug
kind of thing? Oh yeah, posing? What the fuck? Yeah,
he's staying sexy as fuck.

Speaker 2 (01:17:27):
He Ted Bundy is ridiculous. This the way that story
is written, and the fact that Anne Rule, as a
writer and as a crime person herself, was there at
that it's the craziest coincidence or you know, like happenstance
or whatever fate, whatever you want to call it. It's amazing,

(01:17:47):
and it's such a good book. It's so readable.

Speaker 1 (01:17:49):
Yeah, well, this was a fucking party of party of
none none. This was a sad child Murder episode. Yeah,
sorry Elvis, guys, listen, Oh go to We're on Twitter,

(01:18:12):
We're on Instagram, We're on Facebook, we have emails.

Speaker 2 (01:18:16):
We we needed to do another mini and read a
bunch of ye and read a bunch of hometown murders.

Speaker 1 (01:18:24):
That doesn't make me cry. I need to go to
therapy more than there's just so many. It just keeps coming.
That's the thing is.

Speaker 2 (01:18:31):
We really, we really dug ourselves a real hole by
getting into this topic because it's it's all we do.

Speaker 1 (01:18:38):
I know, So we talk about fine talking like it
really makes me feel better that I have a point
in reading about all these murders instead of just doing
it like I did before.

Speaker 2 (01:18:45):
Yeah, that's very true, because I'm going to read it
either way, right.

Speaker 1 (01:18:49):
But there are some that I that you know, just
affect you more like probably for a lot of people
child murders. Yeah, but oh uh, thank you for love
you guys, and we appreciate you listening. And you should
tell a friend about this.

Speaker 2 (01:19:03):
Yeah maybe if if nothing else, just stay saxy and
don't get murdered.

Speaker 1 (01:19:09):
Okay, I want a cookie