69 - Never A Mannequin

Beef down, everyone! It's a brand new My Favorite Murder. This week, Karen and Georgia discuss the Riverside serial killer and the tragic mystery surrounding Keith Warren's death.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:15):
On a podcast. Hey, let's podcast. Hello, welcome to my
favorite murder. That's Karen, that's Georgia.

Speaker 2 (00:23):
Hi. I'm in my element right now. I'm double fisting
petting cats and it's my dream.

Speaker 1 (00:30):
That's how Georgia parties. Yeah, we just got back from
our the last weekend of our first tour. That's right.
Thank you, Washington, d C. Thank you Baltimore, thank you,
Philly to Ford slash Glenside, Pennsylvania. We had the best weekend.
We met so many great.

Speaker 2 (00:49):
People, so many incredible people.

Speaker 1 (00:52):
They sent us home with so many lovely presents. My
suitcase was crammed, and we just gave Stephen many and
many of the press that you gave us to give him. Yeah,
after we picked what we wanted out of his grip.
Yes see, there's lots of stuff that we didn't tell
him about that we're just keeping, well, little mustache things
that we get to have, but we did want to

(01:13):
mention it was very exciting because this time it felt
like and maybe it was the area that we were in.
Oh yeah, Washington. Yeah, we met. We met a forensic analyst,
we met a criminal defense attorney.

Speaker 2 (01:25):
Who listened to the show, not just on the street right.

Speaker 1 (01:27):
Yes, they came to the show. They bought VIP tickets,
they had a high Hi, how are you take a
picture with us?

Speaker 2 (01:33):
And it was very exciting to be meaning actual.

Speaker 1 (01:36):
People who's that I don't know my microphone, oh my god,
George's microphones leaving. They were people who are in the
business of stopping crime who listened to this podcast, which
we were very very honored by, and thank you all
for what you do and for listening. But the most

(01:57):
exciting part, I'll talk slowly so that while Stephen fixed
George's microphone, she can still participate the story without me. Stephen, hurry, Wow,
that was fast. The most exciting for well, I'll say
for me, I think for you too. Oh. I started
crying crying. When we were in Baltimore, the Rams head

(02:18):
Thank you everybody. The ram said that was a really cool,
like rock and roll venue, so hilarious, weird, like you.

Speaker 2 (02:24):
Could smell the sticky beer from decades past. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:27):
The Pixies were playing the night after Past, which we
were freaking out about. We kept saying we were trying
to we wanted to leave something for Kim Deal somewhere
in the dressing room, but Anyway, these two guys walk
up in the meet and greet and flip out an ID,
their federal ID, and it turned out two FBI agents
were at the show.

Speaker 2 (02:48):
And he knew to flip his ID open because we'd
lose our shit. So he walks towards us like in
the Coppist copyist cop manner.

Speaker 1 (02:56):
I think he was like six foot six. Listen, both
of them were.

Speaker 2 (02:59):
Both of them were incredibly handsome.

Speaker 1 (03:01):
They were two hot FBI agents with big smiles on
their faces doing a bit for us.

Speaker 2 (03:07):
And they looked they looked like FBI agents, young ones
that but were cool.

Speaker 1 (03:12):
Yes, not that you know what I mean. Yes, well, no,
they were great and they were super funny because they
immediately were doing a bit about the girl that did
a hometown and Georgia. This was my favorite part is
I was come immediately just like I had no idea
what to say, and I was completely starstruck where I'm like,
I looked at this guy's ID, but my Wergia, this

(03:34):
is fake, yells across me and goes move your finger,
your fingers covering your face, and it was it was
just the way he flipped open his like wallet looking ID,
FBI agent id his finger was over his own face,
which is like a trick people use when they're trying
to trick you into like getting into your car. Totally,
he started laughing because she moved his finger, and of

(03:54):
course it was him.

Speaker 2 (03:55):
Did not believe him, and I was like, that's a
fucking age old. Everyone knows that trick.

Speaker 1 (04:00):
And then it turns out it was not a trick.
They were two real deal FBI agents who.

Speaker 2 (04:06):
Worked for They worked for the Anti terrorism Yeah, squad.

Speaker 1 (04:12):
I don't know if it's a thing. I doubt it's
a squad gang, right, the anti terrorism gang.

Speaker 2 (04:18):
And then the reason the other guy was with him
was because the first guy who covered his face was
supposed to go with his girlfriend or fiance. She got
deployed to Afghanistan. Yes, I think she was the forensic pathologist.

Speaker 1 (04:35):
Maybe you know, she definitely worked in the biz as well,
but she was also in the military because she got
deployed to was it Afghanistan? Totally Afghanistan.

Speaker 2 (04:45):
And we were just like, you're you're the three of
your rock stars. You're living a life very different from ours,
and also.

Speaker 1 (04:55):
We talk about what you do all the time as
of we're experts. I mean, now you're here as as
like audience members. Yeah, but you're actually the experts. It
was the coolest experience.

Speaker 2 (05:04):
I asked so many of the experts who were like
I do this. I asked most of them, are you
mad at us? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (05:09):
And it turns out none of them are mad at us.

Speaker 2 (05:11):
Oh. And then the cop No, wait, was that Austin
the cop with the eyeball killer?

Speaker 1 (05:18):
That was Oh? Yeah, it was that was right? It
was moon Tower. No, I think it was DC with
the pregnant chick. No, that was no. No, are you sure?

Speaker 2 (05:34):
I think it was DC because the cop they were
mean a cop convention. Remember, you're exactly right, and that's
why he was there. So there was the guy with
the eyeball killer that we did a couple few up,
long time ago.

Speaker 1 (05:45):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (05:46):
I don't know how many episodes we recorded. I'm like,
this is this is number ten? Right. He wanted to
meet us. He like tweeted that he was in town
for a cop convention. And I was like, oh, God,
are you mad at us because I or at me?
Because I have no idea what I said about you
in the episode. His daughter in law came in pregnant

(06:06):
and was like, no, he thinks you're great. Here's a
signed copy of his book.

Speaker 1 (06:10):
But I'm sorry. All of that is right, except it
wasn't the pregnant girl that was separate. There were three pregnant,
there were three girls the eye the eyeball killers. Wasn't
it his stepdaughter, Yeah, something like that, and they were
It was her and her two friends. Yeah. I mean,
it doesn't matter what, it doesn't matter. It's all except
for that. We have these great experiences with people for

(06:32):
forty five seconds, and then another experience happens right after.
It's very hard to keep them all track, but we
like them all. The bummer was he was there and
he waiting outside, but we had no ability, Like it was.

Speaker 2 (06:45):
The end and we didn't have the ability to get
him inside. I feel like someday soon we're going to
post the Philly episode. It was the last episode and
it was sweet as fuck. I thought some girl that
I should be able to name recorded the stay Sex
you Don't Get Murder part that the crowd yells with us,
uh huh, And I put it on Instagram and.

Speaker 1 (07:06):
It's just so sweet.

Speaker 2 (07:07):
It's like sweet asn't like sweet. It's just like this
great moment. Oh cool, I love, Oh I love when
we do that at the end. It's so much fun.

Speaker 1 (07:15):
It's very fun. And all three shows were great, and
all three audiences were like one was better than the next.
They were just like it. They were all so great
and fun and excited, and thank you all so so
much for being there.

Speaker 2 (07:27):
And yes, stop asking us on Twitter. We're going to
come to your town.

Speaker 1 (07:31):
Yeah we will. Yeah, there's a planned fall tour. Yeah,
we just want to keep doing it. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (07:37):
Listen, so saying the word Australia and that's all I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (07:42):
That's right, And say the word New Zealand because that's
also in there too, in New Zealand.

Speaker 2 (07:45):
And Yes, we're coming to your California.

Speaker 1 (07:48):
No, your state, We're coming to your personal California. Anyways,
it's what your California is, Like, this is my California,
but maybe Texas is your California, right, yeah, like what's
your CALIFORNI, what's your California. We also thank you for
sharing the news that Ian Brady is dead. That was
your your murder.

Speaker 2 (08:07):
That's the Mores murder. Yeah, I thought he was dead.

Speaker 1 (08:11):
Who cares?

Speaker 2 (08:12):
He were never going to get out I mean whatever,
he died. Okay, he died. I mean it's great because
he's a murder and he deserves to be dead.

Speaker 1 (08:17):
But okay, now he is. But the thing a lot
of people were very excited about is the very recent
casting of zac Efron to play the part of Ted Bundy.

Speaker 2 (08:28):
They were excited, but there were some weren't some, you know,
they just you guys seem to want to know what
our opinion was.

Speaker 1 (08:33):
Because you had said who was the guy that you
said should play him? Never mind? But no recollection, even
though I remember us talking about it. Okay, I'll be
able to remember it.

Speaker 2 (08:46):
Steven steems like, I don't listen to this. What do
you think of it?

Speaker 1 (08:52):
I I fucking dig it.

Speaker 2 (08:54):
At first, I was like huh, but then I remember,
you know, he does these good few movies, but he's
also done some cool shit and he's a good actor.
Seems like a cool dude. And then someone put a
photo side by side of like a young Ted Bundy,
and like a photo that kind of matched of zac Efron,
and it was just exactly what it was supposed to be. Yeah,
so if he can, if he can act it, and

(09:16):
it'll be legit.

Speaker 1 (09:17):
And I tell you now he can act it because
I may have been keeping this to myself up until
this point, although I can't imagine why, because I I
love the movie Day seventeen again. Yes, he was my
lover in the mid nineties when he was twelve. The
movie's seventeen again. I believe it's called with him and

(09:39):
Tom Lennon where he plays his own father. Yeah, he
is so brilliant in it. That must be the one
I was thinking of. Yeah, it's such good acting. It's
a Disney movie and it's a body switch. You know,
I'm young again. Yeah, it's basically zach Efron doing an
impression of Matthew Perry and it is so fucking great.

Speaker 2 (09:57):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (09:57):
My sister made me watch it for the first time.
She's like, you to watch it, you'll like it.

Speaker 2 (10:01):
And I have to trust her when she says that
because she's always.

Speaker 1 (10:04):
Right, and it is. It's just masterful acting by him.
He doesn't get enough credit for what a good actor
he is, and he tries to do interesting stuff. Yeah.
My only thing was April texted me. My friend April
Richardson of Go Bayside podcast Fame. She texted me it
was like I know I'm the one millionth person to
tell you this, but did you know zach Efron? And
she's like, and what do you think? And I said,

(10:25):
you're the millionth person that's asked, but you're the first
person I'm answering. And I said, I'm I believe in
him one thousand percent. He just has to beef down
because he's too cut right now.

Speaker 2 (10:36):
Yeah, it's like it's that like seventies cut, which is
like super skinny but also muscular, but there's no.

Speaker 1 (10:44):
Sinewy sinewy that's it. Yeah, yeah, he definitely has to
do that, but he's like a bike rider as opposed
to a weightlifter.

Speaker 2 (10:50):
I go, yeah, I'm just excited to see it. I mean,
there's not really a good one at all.

Speaker 1 (10:56):
There's the Mark Harmon one, which is fine, but it's
like a for TV movie, so it's not like and realastic.
It's not scholastic.

Speaker 2 (11:06):
It's not scholastic, it's not realistic, it's not bombastic, it's
none of those things.

Speaker 1 (11:13):
I think it'll be good also because I think people
are just like, let's ride this fucking true crime wave
as hard as we can. Yeah, people are seeing that
there's so much interest They've just combined two great things,
which is like what a girl's like? True crime and
zach Efron. Totally, let's do this thing.

Speaker 2 (11:30):
Speaking of listen, next week we're gonna talk about the D. D.
Blanchard and Gypsy Rose documentary that's on HBO, So go
watch it and then we're gonna watch it and talk
about it. But it's definitely something we want to chat
with you about.

Speaker 1 (11:46):
Yes, I can't wait to see it.

Speaker 2 (11:48):
It's called Mommy Dearest and Dead. Yes, so go to
h It's on HBO. I think I'm pretty sure it
is pretty sure.

Speaker 1 (11:55):
Go watch it. Yeah, go watch yourself. A bunch of
people have watched it and asked us about it. Georgia
did her homework. I did not, so I didn't want
to out you. Thank you. Did you hear me say
that we're going to watch it? Yes, it was. That's
called teamwork and I appreciate it.

Speaker 2 (12:08):
But Karen didn't do it and I did it.

Speaker 1 (12:11):
Can you imagine, oh my god, what a count I
would be? There was something? Was there something in there
that really wanted to do that? Though?

Speaker 2 (12:18):
Because no, I was like, how do I get around
saying this?

Speaker 3 (12:22):
Well?

Speaker 1 (12:22):
That was masterful.

Speaker 2 (12:23):
I like, yeah, I pretended that I had either thank
you you took that hit, Steven?

Speaker 1 (12:27):
Did you watch it?

Speaker 4 (12:29):
Not yet?

Speaker 1 (12:30):
Okay, Steven, all right, so he is on? Okay, good?
Two against one any elvis, it's always two against one
in this setup. No, but I can't wait because I
believe Jamie Lee did it at our New York, our
Live New York episode, which we never aired, right did
we not? I have no idea.

Speaker 2 (12:49):
I have no idea he did.

Speaker 1 (12:51):
Okay, good, Okay, Steven's here to tell us what our
life is. But I on that.

Speaker 2 (12:59):
Particular story, no information is enough.

Speaker 1 (13:02):
So the fact that someone has put together an actual
documentary and has her gypsy today talking, Oh my god,
there's an a prison interview.

Speaker 2 (13:12):
And the whole time I was just like, do I
believe her? You cannot tell? And then you're like, is
she crying tears or is she just sounding like and
there's so much shit, And then I didn't know the
background at the mom so that was really fucking interesting.
That's in there as well.

Speaker 1 (13:24):
Oh my god, And I can't wait. I know it's
I very much liked it. And the and the exciting
part is which a bunch of people told us and
we discovered the director I don't have her name, Handy
is a murderino who somebody posts a thing that said,
look when the when this famous documentary filmmaker just shows

(13:45):
up on our.

Speaker 2 (13:46):
Facebook page like commenting on it like thanks, I'm glad
you guys liked it.

Speaker 1 (13:49):
Yeah, sol so cool. So we'll tell it you guys
who it is next week. We'll write it down prepared thing,
we'll talk. Imagine.

Speaker 2 (13:57):
Oh I wanted to say, so my in the of
we love it when just suddenly people like come out
of the woodwork that you would never know have a
murder and then they tell you about it, like your
uncle did that, right, Like oh I caught the fucking Oh.

Speaker 1 (14:11):
Yeah, My cousin Marty uh is the one that lifted
the Richard ra Merris' fingerprints at the last breaking and
entering in San Francisco where they figured out who the
night stalker was? And then you were like, why didn't
you tell me? And he's like, why would I tell
you that? Ever?

Speaker 2 (14:24):
So I have a similar one, my cousin Nancy, who's
like pretty significantly older than me, you know, I think,
and I don't know, And she's just like a normal
really lovely, normal person and married with kids. She teaches
old people how to use the internet, like she's She's.

Speaker 1 (14:39):
Just a really lovely woman. So she then you know,
she's very patient, isn't it.

Speaker 2 (14:45):
She emailed me and says, Hi, Georgia, I listened to
one of your my favorite murder podcasts today. One of
the questions was something about someone you knew new and murderer.
Blah blah blah blah blah. Well, back in the late
eighties early nineties, I worked at the Peterson Publishing House
in West Hollywood. One of the guys in the photo
lab killed one of.

Speaker 1 (15:04):
The models on a shoot.

Speaker 2 (15:05):
I knew him when I worked there, but the murder
was years after I left the company. But I was
an editorial assistant of one of the car magazines and
he'd come by and hand me the photos. He never smiled,
but looked me directly in the eye.

Speaker 1 (15:17):
It was creepy.

Speaker 2 (15:18):
And then I knew anyway, and add another relative who
knows a murderer loved Nancy, and then I was like,
I think this is the one I know, which is
such an interesting story. It's Charles Rathbun Yes, who killed
Linda Sobeck in the fucking desert, right, and he said, oh,
I hit her with my car on accident when I
was showing her some cool moves and I buried her

(15:38):
body because I got scared.

Speaker 1 (15:40):
And it's like, no, you fucking didn't know.

Speaker 2 (15:42):
And then like they found another one of his bodies
close by that as well.

Speaker 1 (15:45):
Yeah, was it in the desert? Was it in Angelie's
National form?

Speaker 2 (15:49):
Yeah, but I think it was like an open thing,
I don't know, open plain type of thing.

Speaker 1 (15:58):
Right way right. It was just far away, like he
would basically get them to come and go on quote
unquote shoots.

Speaker 2 (16:03):
And maybe that was just in my imagination. I like
pictured the desert, so yeah, that's what it looks like.

Speaker 1 (16:10):
It doesn't it was what we know is it was
far away, Yeah, because I don't know my I'm pretty
sure though that that was a city confidential for Los
Angeles about the death of Lindosobec.

Speaker 2 (16:20):
Yes, and I told her I oops. I messaged her
back and was like, I've fucking gone into a rural,
rural area with a guy who wanted to take photos
of me when I was younger and didn't get murdered,
and so that murder is just I know what it's
like to suddenly be like, oh fuck, this was a

(16:41):
mistake and nobody knows I'm here.

Speaker 1 (16:43):
Yes, yeah, so scary. And I don't know this. I
thought I kind of knew this person. I don't know
him at all, right, yeah, yeah, Well, when you're young,
you think you're friends with everybody. Yeah, it's just like, oh, yeah,
my buddy, that's a photographer or whatever. Where it's like,
where's he from, what does he have any siblings? How
much do you know this person? And you're easily charmed.
You don't bring anyone with you, right, you do it

(17:06):
by their dictate. Okay, this is how we're going to
do it. This is where we're going to go.

Speaker 2 (17:09):
Because you don't know to say fuck no.

Speaker 1 (17:12):
Well, also, you're so complimented by the fact that someone's like,
I think that you are a model, which.

Speaker 2 (17:17):
I totally I admit to that completely.

Speaker 1 (17:22):
Of course, why wouldn't you. Yeah, that's a big that's
a big part of all of that. And then the
shame of like, oh, how dare you think that? I mean,
it's the perfect play. They have you coming and going listen,
don't do it, you guys. Let's start at a well
populated place, and you meet them there, don't get in
the car with them, right right. Yes, And there's also

(17:43):
there was a guy that was doing this and he
was actually going up to women at the Century City
Mall that one and he was saying he was a
casting director for the new James Bond movie. Yes, and
they had it on surveillance, right, they have him on surveillance.
And you would go to houses that were being here.
He would get shown the house by a real estate agent,
so he knew it was an empty house. Then he

(18:04):
would have the women meet them at that house and
kill them there. And that's how he got caught. It's
so crazy.

Speaker 2 (18:11):
Yeah, uh, that's amazing. Can I quickly do a podcast recommendation?

Speaker 1 (18:17):
Of course?

Speaker 2 (18:17):
And I've said I've talked about this podcast in its
first season because it was excellent, and then they I
just like listened to the second season in a fucking
minute because it was so good. It's someone Knows Something,
which I think they're calling sks now because no one
knew anything last season.

Speaker 1 (18:32):
Is that the Canadian one? Yeah? With the guy with
the man him? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (18:37):
So he The second season is fucking great. It's really
great storytelling. He has so much empathy, which is, you know,
hard to find sometimes in these stories. His name's his
name is David Riggan, Regan Regan, and he's like, help
solve murders in the past. He's a documentary from like
it's it's fucking heartbreaking. It's really well done. I highly

(18:58):
recommend it. He has the most charming Canadian accent.

Speaker 1 (19:01):
He's so charming.

Speaker 2 (19:02):
And that first season, even though there were no hard answers,
it still is such a great scene.

Speaker 1 (19:08):
My god, it's so good.

Speaker 2 (19:09):
It's heart it's also heartbreaking. Yeah, but it's also it
never really was solved, so it's still so interesting because
you don't know if someone knows something or not right.

Speaker 1 (19:19):
And it also shows what these detectives are up against
when these homicides come in. It's like, because you know,
I do have a lot of guilt about how much
shit we talk about detective work or police work where
it's such armchair quarterbacking, and we talk about that a lot.
But it going through it that way, especially that was
that one was from the seventies, that first season, Murder

(19:42):
of that Little Boy, and it's just like it's you're
they're going on nothing. They have strands, they have basic
bits of information.

Speaker 2 (19:49):
And we don't think about the fact that they don't
have time. It's not like they have the next three
months to look into this case. They have, you know,
a bunch of other cases going as well and more
adding up, and they don't have the time to unfortunately
give to it by no fault of their own right,
you know, the fact that they haven't hired enough detectives,
they don't have the money to at the department.

Speaker 1 (20:09):
Yeah, so it turns into all that red tape stuff. Yeah,
that's such a it's such an interesting like the fact
that politics affect so many of these murder cases and
how much time and attention they get, which then folds
in the whole thing of when sex workers are involved
and they get dismissed, or when it's.

Speaker 2 (20:27):
Or did she disappear and did she just run away?
Maybe she just ran away.

Speaker 1 (20:30):
Yeah, that old kind of seventies like I don't want
to do the paperwork, she's a runaway the sex working.
And then also just the like when it's a white
blonde teenage cheerleader that's in high school, all of the
political power goes behind it, as opposed to anybody of color,
a person that's a sex worker person that was a
drug adding.

Speaker 2 (20:49):
Well, what I love about this episode or this season
of Someone of Something is it's not a fucking perfect
blonde cheerleader. She hadn't been into drugs. She was an
exotic answer, you know, she was had a temper. She
wasn't but she still deserves she still deserves.

Speaker 1 (21:06):
To, you know.

Speaker 2 (21:06):
Her mother is like the most heartbreaking character you've ever heard, Odette,
which I love that name.

Speaker 1 (21:12):
But I got to listen to that. Yeah, but yeah,
it's good.

Speaker 2 (21:15):
It's not until and then there's the thing too, of
like at the time of the murder, friends and family
might not want to talk, you know, they know things,
they're scared, but he's he's looking into it, like twenty
years later, and he's such an empathetic guy and he's
just trying to solve it. He's not trying to, you know,
fuck with anyone, right, And so they talked to.

Speaker 1 (21:35):
Him, and I mean he's fucking great.

Speaker 2 (21:37):
Yeah, he's so good. So watch Someone Know Something second
season and first the same way.

Speaker 1 (21:42):
It's podcast, right, yeah, yeah, Hi, Hi, how are you?
I'm great? How are you? I'm really good? Is there
anything else we wanted to? I guess my only the one.
And I can't remember if I've said this already, but
I've gotten on your recommendation so into the now. I
can't remember the name of it. Which one. What's it
about the the guy, the Australian guy.

Speaker 3 (22:05):
Oh, crime, mysterious Wonders, Oh honey, Yes, Mysteries about Mysteries
about it is just the most beautiful.

Speaker 1 (22:15):
It is so beautifully presented. He at the top of
every story he cites his sources. That's the third first
thing I noticed where I'm like, ah, yes, that's what
we're that's what we're doing.

Speaker 2 (22:27):
But for someone who's just reading articles about mysteries throughout
the internet, it's so good.

Speaker 1 (22:34):
It's so good. It's not his stories. He's doing no research.
He's well, he's reading articles, but he's it's performative. And
it's also he gets why certain things are interesting. I
don't know, it's just I've listened to now probably twenty
of them because we've been doing so much traveling. It's
just the perfect podcast.

Speaker 2 (22:52):
And it goes all over the place, like seven interesting
facts about urine or like you know why the like
Mysteries about the Moon, which is my favorite fucking one.
It's like these things I never knew about. But then
also he is the most droning, like a most comforting voice.
So I fall asleep to it every fucking night.

Speaker 1 (23:10):
I fought, Yeah, I was falling asleep on the plane.

Speaker 2 (23:12):
But then there's this one thing he does where, like
the he'll tell the story and then have music in
between the next ones, and for some reason, that music
is super loud. Yeah, so I keep waking up when
the story is. It's scary, but I love it. Mysteries Bound, Okay,
Mysteries Bound so good. Okay, So do we do ours?
Do we go first based on our tour or do

(23:32):
we go first? We did Kid Sorry, Q and A
last time, but then we did the live show after Wait,
we did the live show.

Speaker 1 (23:40):
Before Q and It. Stephen, Yeah, is this like a reset?

Speaker 4 (23:43):
Or do we go from the tour?

Speaker 1 (23:45):
Should we flip a coin? Yeah? Flip the flip the
coin the FBI coin. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (23:49):
Ye, they gave us the wait, what side do you want?

Speaker 1 (23:52):
The FBI guys gave us these commemorative coins that are
so cool looking.

Speaker 3 (23:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (23:57):
I mean they even brought us presents hot FBI h
It's brought up. It was, Oh my god. I rarely
get like dumb struck or I'm like, can't figure out
one good thing to say, and I just kept laughing
and going.

Speaker 2 (24:11):
Really really and like yeah, I almost started crying, which
I don't usually do. And then every like the next
ten people who we met, I was like, those guys
were were like saying it, So what all right? So
are you pick pick gold or blue? That's blue? That's gold,
This says Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation, counter

(24:34):
counter Terror Terrorism Division, and gang it says, no, it.

Speaker 1 (24:38):
Doesn't the counter Terrorism gang. You. Yeah, you do it.
The one in the middle is blue, you know what
I'm saying, and that one's gold. Yeah, so Karen, you
call it, I'll be blue. Can we flip a coin
to see who calls it? I'll be blue, you be gold? Okay? Gold?
Wait you blue? Oh wait, but we didn't say what
we're flipping to go first or oh you get you?

(25:01):
So you get? Do you like going first or do
you like going last? I think it depends on the story. Yeah,
don flip about.

Speaker 4 (25:08):
Whoever gets it gets to choose what this.

Speaker 1 (25:11):
Is suddenly really interested in what's happening. Georgia won that.
So do you want to just pick what you want
to do.

Speaker 2 (25:17):
I like going first, do it? There's a real big bummer.

Speaker 1 (25:22):
I mean, yes, so is mine it?

Speaker 2 (25:24):
I mean it's a murder. It's like no, mine's super
light hardened.

Speaker 1 (25:27):
Yeah, there's nothing. It's it's not like an old one
or whatever. But but it's a good one. Okay, do
you so you just do what you want? Okay, mine's
pretty short, Okay?

Speaker 2 (25:36):
And what I just love that, Like we can't even
do a coin flip correctly.

Speaker 1 (25:42):
We're talking amazing.

Speaker 2 (25:43):
We like recommend these investigative journalism like fucking like next
level pieces of journalism podcasts, and then we're.

Speaker 1 (25:50):
Like, flip a coin to flip a coin? Steven? Did
we who went first? It's just slop.

Speaker 2 (25:57):
It's so enjoyable in a charming wrapper, Yes, for sure,
you know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (26:04):
I mean, let's hope.

Speaker 2 (26:05):
Like what kind of candy is really gross? And then
you're like, oh, it looks so good.

Speaker 1 (26:09):
Remember Rocky Road, which was dark chocolate covered, yes, marshmallows
and like some weird nut maybe a walnut chocolate and
oh fuck those were good? Did they not have them anymore?

Speaker 2 (26:19):
Oh?

Speaker 1 (26:20):
I was? I was naming it as a bad one.

Speaker 2 (26:22):
Oh, I guess there's no candy.

Speaker 1 (26:24):
That's bad.

Speaker 2 (26:25):
Really, yeah, I guess you're right.

Speaker 1 (26:27):
Let's talk about candy for a half an hour. I
actually when we were leaving the airport, I fucking will
talk about candy skippers. And when I was leaving the airport,
it was in that place where we had traveled so much.
I was so tired. I was so tired. And we
got back on Monday, and I was supposed to do
a show that night. Fucking bailed on it because I
was like, by the time the show was going to start,
it would have been two am my time, and I

(26:48):
had been traveling all week.

Speaker 2 (26:49):
I was like, well, when you were going to do
another podcast on the way home, weren't you?

Speaker 1 (26:52):
I did.

Speaker 2 (26:53):
We did my other podcast, do you Need a Ride?

Speaker 1 (26:55):
I recorded one on the way home, Honey. Then I
got home. When I laid down, all of my turned
to cement. But when I was leaving the airport, I
walked by a seased candy cart and I was like,
I can have seas candy. I got this voice in
my head that was like it was my birthday. I
don't even know what I was thinking, but I walked
up and as I walked around the cart. I was

(27:17):
just like, so, what, You're gonna take a pound of
candy home and eat it?

Speaker 2 (27:21):
Don't they have the singles?

Speaker 1 (27:23):
They have like smaller boxes. But I got around. I
walked around the whole thing, and then I met a
lady on the other side, and I said there were
little tiny boxes of things, and I go, do you
have tiny boxes of nuts and chees? And she was like,
oh no, only one pound And I was.

Speaker 2 (27:39):
Like, okay, bye, I've walked away before anything else happened.
Why don't they give samples in there like they do
it regular seas candies.

Speaker 1 (27:46):
Because it's like a weird kiosk and they don't you
know next time? Their lollipops are super satisfying. Yeah, those
are good, except for there's too many flavors I don't
like of the lollipops. Is there a butterscotch? I think
I like that one, yep? Or coffee?

Speaker 2 (28:00):
There's coffee, there's butterscut I mean, listen, when you guys
come to California, that's our fucking seas candy. You just
bring it to Whenever I see one, I'm like, am
I going anywhere soon that I need to bring a
box of seas. I know, you know that's our Christmas thing.
We're like thing really yeah, that's all we do is
like you're going to go somewhere, you grab one of.

Speaker 1 (28:18):
Those two pound boxes and nuts and cheese, and that's
like the gift. I like the soft centers, though, do
you This is perfect with our like dark meat, white
meat turkey thing.

Speaker 2 (28:28):
You can share a chicken and a box of chocolates
and everybody's going to be satisfied. And what was I
going to say? Yeah, we do that too, just like
a table and there's Jewish cookies and sees boxes candy
and everyone just sits around, talks and eats too much.

Speaker 1 (28:44):
And it's the best. So good. Shout out to rugula,
which it's the best? Is the word that I just
shouted out? A cookie? I love it. Shout out to
a rugula just playing the lettuce.

Speaker 2 (29:02):
Oh yeah, I'm not randomly shouting out a lettuce.

Speaker 1 (29:05):
It wasn't that random. It was Jewish cookies. And that's
the one that you got at Michael's, the the diner
we went to after the show. Right, No, that was
that was.

Speaker 2 (29:19):
It?

Speaker 1 (29:23):
Where are we shout out? I'm not sure? Do you
want to start.

Speaker 2 (29:26):
Sure, all right, shout out Mary, see you really made
some good candy.

Speaker 1 (29:31):
Mary. Oh, I love her. Yeah, I meant the little
old lady with the glasses and.

Speaker 2 (29:34):
The was that made up? I just recently found out
that what's the cookie woman? No wait, that's not right,
Lorna Dune. No, one of those people are made up.

Speaker 1 (29:43):
Oh, probably Betty Crocker it.

Speaker 2 (29:45):
Yeah, my friend's reading a documentary on her. Is that
a thing you can read?

Speaker 1 (29:51):
She told me that, yeah, waits just created by a company. Yeah,
which I think is not fair.

Speaker 2 (29:56):
It is pretty fucked up. Okay, Hey, speaking of fucked up, yeah,
this one's a bummer.

Speaker 1 (30:03):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (30:05):
So on July thirtieth, nineteen eighty six, or in nineteen
eighty six, and I can see the outfit I'm wearing
or in an affluent community of Silver Spring, which is
located in Maryland, and nineteen year old Keith Whedell Warren
was found hanging from a tree two days after he
was reported missing by his mother. Keith, who's an African American,

(30:30):
had been accepted into North Carolina Central University and was
set to go in the fall, but he was currently
home for the summer making money and saving it up
to go away handsome right. Everyone said he was a
good kid, you know, good in school. He did have
some depression issues, but in his recent in his recent past,

(30:52):
his parents had divorce, but he had a bright future.
So on so July thirtieth, nineteen eighty six, a woman
walking her dog dog found Keith in a wooded area
near his family's home. His body was hanging from a
small tree by his neck and the tree was bent
double with his wais. The cord was elaborately hung and
anchored around the base of the tree, and it was

(31:15):
twenty five feet then to a small sapling, so it
was like this elaborate kind of hanging mechanism and then
I encircled with sapling's trunk arched through a fork. The
first paramedic who arrived on the scene said that he
immediately knew it was a staged hanging ooh, and so
he didn't touch the body at all. He was waiting
for the police to arrive. Nice but the officer and

(31:37):
detective who arrived at the scene released that paramedic.

Speaker 1 (31:42):
The officer stated that.

Speaker 2 (31:45):
This was interfering with his lunch break and they didn't
cordon off the area and the scene was trampled, and
I of course looked up his name and warning immediately
crime scene photos come up. Oh but you can see
in the background of one of them just some fucking
shirtless dude hanging out staring at the body. So they
hadn't even taken it down yet, and there was a guy,

(32:07):
you know, maybe not even ten feet just hanging out.

Speaker 1 (32:11):
Whoa, Yeah, okay, it's like some hippie dude.

Speaker 2 (32:13):
So this was before they understood how But does it
I don't think so.

Speaker 1 (32:18):
It's just it was just Yeah, I think when we.

Speaker 2 (32:22):
Read about a lot of these fucked up crimes that happens,
But I don't think that that was a normal procedure.
I can't imagine. Yeah, let us know, cops from the
eighty six, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (32:32):
When did they When did they really know that you
had to lock down a crime scene and no one
got to come look be near it like a whole?

Speaker 2 (32:40):
Like what do they call that? Establish a perimeter? Like?
I want to know as well, when did they start
wearing gloves and stop smoking at the crime scene?

Speaker 1 (32:47):
Yea, cops, you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (32:49):
It had to be in somewhere in the nineties, because
even OJ Simpson's crime scene was handled without gloves, which
they definitely should have known by then.

Speaker 1 (32:57):
Yes, right, anyways, Okay, it gets worse.

Speaker 2 (33:02):
Okay, despite the obvious discrepancies, authorities didn't see anything wrong
with the scene, and after a brief visual inspection, then
the County Department Medical examiner determined that Keithorne had committed suicide.
No autopsy was ordered. The body was sent directly to
a funeral home. The detective chose it. And this was

(33:24):
all that happened. Oh and his body was embalmed all
before his mother was even aware of his death.

Speaker 1 (33:34):
What. Yeah, so that's simply not procedure.

Speaker 2 (33:37):
No, I can't be well, back then you didn't need
to perform an autopsy on a suicide, but it was
definitely suspicious. The embalming that kind of thing is the
parent's decision.

Speaker 1 (33:48):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (33:49):
And also he wasn't taken to a morgue. He was
taking to a funeral home. I think the funeral director
didn't really get any information about what was going on,
so he just thought he was supposed to embalm the body.

Speaker 1 (34:00):
But Silver Spring, do you know a smaller place like
could they use that excuse that this was like small town?

Speaker 2 (34:05):
They're not used to. From what I can tell, I
don't know if it was if it was just the
community or what, but it was like seventy thousand people.

Speaker 1 (34:12):
Okay, not huge, no, okay, but it.

Speaker 2 (34:15):
Was like it was like forty minutes from Philly. It
was like not far from DC. So it's not rural.
It's rural.

Speaker 1 (34:24):
How do you say that. I can never hear saying it, right.

Speaker 2 (34:26):
It's just a weird word.

Speaker 1 (34:27):
It's just stupid. Yeah, Okay.

Speaker 2 (34:30):
So by the six hours after he had been found,
his mother was finally told about it, and by then
he had been embalmed.

Speaker 1 (34:39):
I mean, that's not acceptable, I know, Okay.

Speaker 2 (34:42):
When the family asked for his clothing that he even
wearing at the time, the funeral informed the funeral home
informed them that most of it had been destroyed because
of the decay of the body had ruined them. So
they just got rid of the decayed body clothes, okay.
They were only given his jacket and a pair of
brown boots. And from I can say from those from

(35:07):
those crime scene photos that I of course looked at
all of them and almost started crying because I have
to look at them, because I'm a fucking weirdo. He
wasn't decayed at all. He wasn't decaying. He was found
two days after he went missing. Don't know how long
he is up there, but he looks like he had
gotten there recently. Like, yeah, there is nothing about him

(35:28):
that looks like what you would expect from a hanging,
which is a lot of really grotesque things happened to you, right,
There was no indication that he was decayed. Anyways, Later,
when his mom attempted to visit the tree to pray
there because she was so fucking heartbroken, she got there

(35:49):
and realized the tree had been cut down. What yeah, okay,
taken into evidence by the police, which his mother was like,
if this is a suicide and the case was closed,
which it was, why are you taking evidence? That's exactly right.

Speaker 1 (36:01):
Yeah, you're taking an evidence for a suicide and a
cloth you don't do. You're not taking evidence from the body.
But you are taking the.

Speaker 2 (36:09):
Tree, definitely, and the tree couldn't be found or maybe
it was destroyed in a fire. I couldn't really, there's
not there's no Wikipedia about this. There's like not a
lot of shit. A lot of the articles are just
you know, the same stuff regurgitated because there's just not
a ton of information out there. I couldn't believe there
was an o Wikipedia about this. Yeah, so I had

(36:31):
to do a lot of work. So Mary had doubts,
but it really wasn't until she heard from a friend
of Keith's that she really got uh suspicious.

Speaker 1 (36:42):
Thank you.

Speaker 2 (36:43):
So Rodney Kendall was a friend of hers and said
that he had seen a car full of black mails
looking for Keith shortly before his death. Rodney told them
they hadn't seen Keith and they immediately left. Then several
days later, Rodney had another odd encounter with a high
school acquaintance of both of theirs, name Mark Finley, and

(37:05):
he said he seemed pretty urgent. I thought it was
strange because he acted like he needed to find Keith
very quickly, and I told him I didn't know where
he was and he left, So all these people searching
for him weird. The Marilyn County Pete refused to hand
over the photos taken at the crime scene to his
mother because he said they would be too difficult for
her to see.

Speaker 1 (37:26):
So she's asking to see him and I say no,
And they said that she should have a closed casket too.

Speaker 2 (37:32):
So April in nineteen ninety two, So this happened in
eighty six. It wasn't until ninety two, which would have
been her son's twenty fifth birthday exactly. Mary found a
plane manilla envelope on her doorstep, Anonymous, and inside there
were five pictures, each showing a different view of Keith's

(37:53):
hanging by his neck.

Speaker 1 (37:54):
So those are the photos that I saw.

Speaker 2 (37:56):
Whoa yeah, and so it's from the back, it's I mean,
up of his face. It's just it's so heartbreaking. His
face is so sweet and like young. So she saw
the photos and she found glaring discrepancies, including his clothes
didn't fit him, that he was wearing which made her

(38:19):
think she was he was wearing someone else's clothes. There
was no decomposition, which the funeral told her. Funeral home
told her there was. And also he was wearing in
the photographs. Remember he had they had given him brown
boots at the funeral home. He was wearing white sneakers.

Speaker 1 (38:36):
In the photographs. Yeah, what the fuck?

Speaker 2 (38:39):
Yeah, there was a note attached to all these photos
that said, don't worry, Mark Finley will be next. And
Mark Finley was the kid who said that he had
seen people asking for Keith, So the family hired private
detective Joe Alercia I think, who in addition to these discrepancies,

(39:00):
also saw that. And this is the fucking point of
it that always gives me chills. So Keith had on
the back of his jacket leaves and debris meaning he
and he didn't land on his back, meaning they started
to think that he had been brought there and hoisted
it up. So so the family also then hired a

(39:27):
renowned forensic pathologist, is Ador Melacis, who exhumed Keith's body
and did a toxicology report, which they never fucking did originally,
which is insane, right, Like, even not an autopsy, a
toxicology report is just seems like a basic you know.

Speaker 1 (39:47):
Yeah, if you're just looking for information of what happened.

Speaker 2 (39:50):
How did he kill himself, what state of mind was
in at the time.

Speaker 1 (39:52):
And also just that the family would want the difference
between somebody who has hung themselves and somebody who has
died under s vicious circumstances. You to give a family
a story of your son killed himself is a totally
different narrative and says something about your son that then
you have to live with, whereas your son being a

(40:13):
victim of a murder is a completely down story.

Speaker 2 (40:15):
It's just like no answers, you get no answers.

Speaker 1 (40:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (40:18):
Well, and someone you know, there is something too about
the fact that they saw a young black man hanging
from a tree. Yeah, and im mediate ligard suicide where
it's like someone said, it reminded me of the old South.

Speaker 1 (40:31):
Yeah, and hangings and not that old.

Speaker 2 (40:33):
I mean, it's still happened by fucking racist motherfuckers at
the time, right, So to see him hanging suspiciously, and
I saw it his legs his feet are on the
ground and his legs are kind of bent forward, so
he's almost in like if he were in a sitting
position with his legs forward, and then it got hoisted
up a little, so he wasn't hanging right. And it

(40:53):
was definitely, like you know, indicative of lynching. Yes, indicative
the right word, Yes.

Speaker 1 (41:02):
I mean, yeah, great, But but also it's that thing
of yeah, that's to rush all of that away, not
to immediately at the scene say suicide. No nope, no, no, yeah, sorry,
I didn't mean to interrupt you. No, no, no, that's
I'm agreeing with you, and going with what you're telling me,

(41:24):
and it's very upsetting. Okay your gall Yeah, I will
listen to it.

Speaker 2 (41:27):
Yeah gall No, it is okay, shit man. This is
called question Yourself corner right by Georgia So Okay. Toxicology
report analysis reveals abnormally elevated amounts of here we go trichlora, methanee, methane,

(41:49):
tricole or methane okay, a solvent found in paints and lackers,
and powerful chemicals that are usually found in glue and solvents. So,
according to doctor Isidor uh Mahallakis, the levels found in
Keith's body were more than enought to kill him. And
this is a body that has already been what do

(42:11):
you call it, embalm embalm and buried. So there was
the argument that maybe they came from the embalming, maybe
they came from.

Speaker 1 (42:21):
The soil where he's buried. Yeah, but it was pretty,
it was pretty.

Speaker 2 (42:26):
The doctor felt sure that it was not that because
they weren't chemicals used in that, Okay, And they weren't.
You know, they were high enough levels that it wouldn't
have been absorbed if it was in the soil. Okay,
So you know, it's the it's the argument, is it
or isn't it?

Speaker 1 (42:41):
You know, And but the doctor saying, I'm fine, I
know what I'm looking at, I know what the situation was,
and I'm finding these chemicals there anyway, and that's highly suspicious.

Speaker 2 (42:49):
Yeah, but the other side probably we're just as sure
that it wasn't true.

Speaker 1 (42:56):
Well, the thing is, once you've embalm my body, you
can't fucking say anything for sure, which is why you
don't rush to embalm.

Speaker 2 (43:02):
I mean that one is the biggest glaring thing of
that's the biggest fuck up.

Speaker 1 (43:06):
Yeah, what do you or cover up? Yeah? Okay for sure? Okay,
m hmm okay.

Speaker 2 (43:14):
Based on the high levels of this chemical in the
victim's body, the doctor concluded that several men that severe
mental confusion would have resulted and impair decision making of
routine actions, so he couldn't even decide to kill himself
if he wanted.

Speaker 1 (43:27):
To, Okay.

Speaker 2 (43:29):
Outside investigators claimed that the way he had apparently hung
himself was practically impossible due to the small tree and
the fact that two ropes were used in the suicide.
I don't totally understand, because you can still if you
want to kill yourself and you need two ropes, you
can still do.

Speaker 1 (43:45):
I guess they were. What they were saying is the
way that's set up, And what it sounded like is
they were using a long tree against the other. That
it was, Yeah, that basically you can't do that by yourself.

Speaker 2 (43:55):
So all he would have needed to hang himself was
run rope and one tree not and there was nowhere
for him to jump off of either. Yeah, so I
don't I think it's probably you know, they were like, well,
you can, you can hang yourself any way you want.
But I feel like, in the same way that when
people try to drown themselves, you just can't allow yourself
to do that. There's some something deep in you that

(44:15):
stands up or gets out.

Speaker 1 (44:17):
Of Yeah, there's the fight in the instinct inside of you. Right,
So there's that.

Speaker 2 (44:24):
And then he said, I do not believe that he
would have the ability to hang himself, and for that matter,
he would not have the ability to make the decision
about hanging himself, And so he ruled the death that
the death must be investigated as a homicide. The family
appealed to the Maryland County PD, and eventually the United
States Attorney General Janet Reno for colonel investigation into the

(44:45):
death as well as the stuff with subsequent actions of
the police department. All requests have been denied. Oh yeah,
so here's what I wrote. So how did Keith die?
And these are kind of taken all over the internet
of ideas. Did the overdose on solvents found in uh
that were found in his body. He was at a
party with friends, maybe they were huffing, maybe they were

(45:08):
doing drugs, and he overdosed and his friends panicked and
staged his death to look like a suicide to avoid police,
which would make sense of his clothes being changed, because
maybe he vomited all over his clothing. Maybe there was
blood on that and so that's why they changed his clothes,
including his shoes, and they just wanted to make it
look like a suicide. Or did someone you know come

(45:31):
from behind with a rag and that's why he had
to solvents inside him. So it wasn't his choice. Yeah,
his backpack had some of his favorite tapes in it,
which points to him maybe going to a party. That's
just in my opinion, Like you know, when you're going
out with friends, you're like, I'll bring some music, we're
going to hang out.

Speaker 1 (45:49):
Right, because back in I will say this, in the eighties,
you didn't you didn't travel with tapes.

Speaker 2 (45:56):
Like you would make one mixtape maybe and bring it somewhere,
but like you usually left that either at home or
in your car because they were just such a pain. Yeah,
So he had his backpack favorite tapes in it, which
makes me think it's someone he was going to visit,
someone he knew in that what just that I was
thinking about. It's like party plan if it was a
party he wrote about a mixtape, Yeah, one or two tapes.

(46:17):
If it was his friends, he'd be like, I want
you to hear this tape, this new one, this one's great.

Speaker 1 (46:23):
Right, Does that make any sense? I think?

Speaker 2 (46:25):
So that's off the top of my head and clearly
just speculation.

Speaker 1 (46:28):
We're just speculating.

Speaker 2 (46:28):
Yeah, So, okay, some people thought that he may have
been and this is on like you know wiki, uh,
what's like Reddit and shit, that he may have been
an informant to the police and he was found out
by the local drug dealers, which might have been the
guys in the car, and they were looking for him

(46:50):
and killed him. Which makes sense that the cops would
cover it up because they don't want everyone to.

Speaker 1 (46:55):
Know that they caused a murder. Yeah, which is actually
I keep.

Speaker 2 (46:59):
Trying to find this murder that I found out about
long time ago. There was this girl this kind of
small town. The cops found all this LSD on her
and said you're going to jail forever or you need
to be our informant. And the guys, the drug dealers,
she went over there wired they found out shot her
in the fucking head. But it took them a long
time to find out about that. I can't find that one.

Speaker 1 (47:18):
I think I remember you telling me about that one.
It sounds familiar. It's always stuck with me.

Speaker 2 (47:22):
He took the sweet hippie you know in the nineties,
hippie girl. Yeah, okay, So was it a hate crime?
Very well could have been. Did he actually somehow commit suicide?
I mean, that's always an option to it's not gone. So,
in a final disturbing twist, the one person who may

(47:45):
have been able to answer those questions turned up dead
under suspicious circumstance.

Speaker 1 (47:49):
Mark Finley. Mark Finley, oh shit.

Speaker 2 (47:53):
When he was one of the guys who came looking
for Keith a few days before he died and his
mother had received the package. Mark Kinley's next she told
him and he said to her that he would be
by to see her soon, and she said, he said,
I need to unload. So maybe he was one of

(48:15):
the friends at the party. Maybe he knew something. So
one month after she received those photos and talked to him,
he was dead. According to police, he died accidentally when
he was struck when he struck a curb on his
bike and was thrown off in what was described as
a freak accident. However, according to paramedics who were on

(48:36):
the scene, his wounds were not consistent with a bicycle accident.
His wounds were more consistent with being hit by a
car or being hit with.

Speaker 1 (48:43):
A baseball bat.

Speaker 2 (48:44):
Oh man, his wounds were greater that could have been
than that falling would have caused, especially in the location
where it allegedly took place. So his mother, Mary Cooey,
died suddenly in May May twenty fifth, in two thousand
and nine.

Speaker 1 (49:03):
And she dedicated mother. Yeah, she dedicated her life after
that finding justice. They spent a lot of money. They had.

Speaker 2 (49:14):
What's it called awards for finding her information reward?

Speaker 1 (49:19):
Yes, yeah, not awards. Well, monetary awards or as we
know them, rewards.

Speaker 2 (49:26):
Yes, yes, thank you, yeah, awards too positive for this,
I mean listen. So she died, never found any justice her,
but Keith's sister, her little sister, Sherry Warren, has taken
up her mom's fight. She says that even if he
died of an accidental overdose, she still wants the Marily

(49:46):
County PD to be held accountable. Yeah, actions, so she
organizes marches. She is still looking for answers. There's still
rewards out there, and she just wants answers.

Speaker 1 (49:59):
Yeah. Also, just that idea.

Speaker 2 (50:04):
It's just that thing of like if something.

Speaker 1 (50:07):
Procedurally is so screwed up that they they're taking pictures
of a dead body and then there's just kind of
a dude loitering in the background, or there's no perimeter
on the crime scene, or there's no or they're rushing
a body to be taken to the funeral home, like
all of those things, aside from the injustice to this

(50:27):
family and to this victim. They can't do it that
way ever. Again, So it's that idea too, that like this,
it's just that thing of the crime procedure cannot be
that screwed up, like you just have to learn from
those mistakes. Say, it's all a mistake. Yeah, best case scenario,
it's just a series of terrible mistakes.

Speaker 2 (50:47):
Especially because those people who were there at the time
are probably not on the force anymore. They probably retired. Yeah,
so it's kind of admitting. It's a thing of like
when you hear on the on like, you know, forty
eight hours and all these things of like cops saying
or detectives saying, yeah, we did that wrong and we

(51:07):
learned from it. It's so refreshing to hear because everyone
makes mistakes, you know, and we're fucking big on the
eighties and nineties and before that being fucked up in
terms of you know, procedures.

Speaker 1 (51:20):
Yeah, so it is, and it is tough because you know,
to be involved in uh, in crime, in stopping crime,
you have to be a big tough man who is
brave and faces the worst of all society all day
every day, and so admit it and get being flexible

(51:40):
and being able to admit mistakes and all those kinds
of things don't go along with that persona. And I
think that's changing too. It's that thing of like it's
the no one's looking for you to be the like
Texas ranger.

Speaker 2 (51:52):
Yeah, or do every single thing correctly.

Speaker 1 (51:54):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (51:54):
People make mistakes and it's like, you know, one guy
in the on the force believes it's not what it is.
He's not going to fight with every other eye on there.
He's a woman. He's not gonna fight with his fucking boss.
You know, you get labeled snitch and you know.

Speaker 1 (52:11):
Right or troublemaker or whatever.

Speaker 2 (52:14):
From what we know on Law and Order, all the
shit you get put on, get desk job, death duty
after that.

Speaker 1 (52:20):
That's exactly right. It's all political. I mean, it's it's
political where it shouldn't be. But wow, that's amazing. It's
a in fact, I just can't believe there's not more
on that. Yeah, more on that, especially because well it
also kind of goes to show that the I feel
like in this day and age, because that is such
a a black man being hung hung and having that

(52:41):
not fully and thoroughly looked into is such as so problematic.
It's such a like the kind of thing that I
think people are working very hard to make sure doesn't
get swept under the rug anymore.

Speaker 2 (52:56):
Hopefully and to be fair case file did an episode
on this like in January, so it's not nobody's you know,
episode forty three.

Speaker 1 (53:05):
He does, you know.

Speaker 2 (53:08):
His story as well, so I don't want to not
give them a shout out him a shout out.

Speaker 1 (53:14):
Yeah, but it's fucked up, man.

Speaker 2 (53:16):
Let's let's open that back up.

Speaker 1 (53:20):
Yeah, I'd love to know the answer to that. That's crazy,
mine's fucked up to Congratulations, So we managed so rare
that you find a murder story. That's awful. I got. Actually,
the first whiff of this I ever heard is from
the show Real Detective that we've talked about many times.

Speaker 2 (53:43):
So good on Netflix?

Speaker 1 (53:45):
It is?

Speaker 2 (53:46):
Uh it's is it on Netflix?

Speaker 1 (53:49):
I'm not sure it's on regular TV now like I
have it just t vode and so I have like
ten episodes from regular TV.

Speaker 2 (53:56):
Okay, what I only season one is on?

Speaker 1 (53:58):
Sorry, what do you like to call regular TV?

Speaker 2 (54:02):
I mean, at this day and age, it's.

Speaker 1 (54:05):
Just regular TV. But you can also it's on demand
on direct TV. Oh that's how I watched the one
I watched today.

Speaker 2 (54:13):
I hate on demand why because you can't put it
in it, you can't list it. You have to specifically
look for something and then watch it. Yes, you have
to know exactly what you're looking for. There's a new
show coming up called like New York detect Or, like
the FBI in New York or some shit. Yeah, and
I went immediately to record it, and you can't. It's
just I'm gonna forget it immediately.

Speaker 1 (54:35):
Oh well, make Stephen remind you listen. Stephen, can you
change Direct TV?

Speaker 2 (54:39):
Please listen? Give DirecTV a call.

Speaker 1 (54:41):
You need to start writing some letters. Yeah, okay, so
Real Detective. We'll try to watch it any way you
can find out. But the reason I loved this episode
was not only because it was a southern California serial
killer that I'd never heard of, which is pretty fascinating,
But on this episode The Real Detective, if you haven't
watched it, basically follows the one detective who solves this crime,

(55:06):
and that detective is there talking about themselves in the
twenty years ago or whenever the thing happens.

Speaker 2 (55:12):
It's like doing the storytelling, So it's not like a
dramatic reenactment.

Speaker 1 (55:16):
No, there it's first hand experience of what it was
like for this person to get catch this case, go
through be at all these crime scenes, and eventually, thankfully
solve the crime.

Speaker 2 (55:28):
And there are reenactments, but they're good exactly because they
actually hire great actors because it's not just they don't
just do like reenactments that are silent. There are whole
scenes that they do, like sea talking. Yeah, yeah, it's
a really great show.

Speaker 1 (55:43):
Okay, So this one is the Riverside County. The name
of him was the Riverside County Prostitute Killer originally, but
I called them the Riverside County serial Killer. And the
detective's named Bob Creed and he he is, especially as

(56:03):
a detective, he is so empathetic and he is so
lovely and kind, and the way he talks about all
of these victims, it's the episode starts with him just
kind of listing all the victims' names, like he knows
all of them now. So it's that kind of thing
where you're just watching a person who this was his
life and this he took all of these deaths to heart,

(56:27):
and and the fact that it was taking place in
his home town and his home territory, and it's this
incredible story.

Speaker 2 (56:35):
So that's refreshing because when you said the name of
what it was before the Prostitute Killer, I immediately was like, oh,
well then they're not important. So him naming them immediately
makes me think that they're important.

Speaker 1 (56:46):
It's not only that, but the way they present these
murders in on the show Real Detectives, they really play down,
if not don't mention the prostitute aspect at all. So
they really are just talking about they found this victim here,
they found this victim here, And when and when Bob
Creed talks about them, he talks about like he starts

(57:10):
out by saying, these were women with families who loved them,
and he talks about the family. They were good families
and they loved their daughters. So it's because all of
the in the murder Pedia articles that I was reading,
it's all just prostitute drug user because.

Speaker 2 (57:26):
You never know the circumstance of their life, you don't.
And the killing fields do that really well when they
talk to their families and sisters. But you know, I
was when I go missing, is it going to be
ex drug addicts?

Speaker 1 (57:37):
You know? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (57:38):
Yeah, because it was a drug addict.

Speaker 1 (57:40):
At one point.

Speaker 2 (57:41):
Yet I haven't been in twenty you know. It's like
like we did I did a murder when we were
doing the live shows, and one of them called her
a prostitute. But in other places I saw as a messseuse.
And it's like did she cross some lines at her
job and they called her a prostitute. It's just there's
so many there's so many nuances around it.

Speaker 1 (57:58):
Well, yeah, and when you oil, like in journalism and
this kind of journalism, when you boil people's lives down
to the to their criminal records or the like, the
basic facts of their lives, what are you choosing to
leave in and what and what are you choosing to
bring out? Because there are lots of people who have
been addicted to drugs, whether or not they go to
jail for it. There's lots of people on drugs right

(58:20):
now that if you died right now and they took
the toxicology report, not you, but like anybody in the street,
any man in the streets, that if they died and
they took the toxicology report, and they'd be like, well,
you're filled with wellbutrin and adderall and did this and that,
tolpa max and pot and you and you just had

(58:41):
four drinks. So are you a drug user? And so
should your murder matter less? Because of that? And that's
kind of like I was really blown away because when
I was when I was reading these old articles, it
was one story. But the way Real Detective presents this
is so different and it's so modern, and and then
this detective on top of it, you love him and

(59:03):
you love the work that he's doing because it's just
very personal. So all right, so this is like, no,
that's a guy. It's the I need you to okay.
And the presentation or this like what I've written up
is a combination of me writing down things from this.

Speaker 2 (59:18):
Episode of Real Detective.

Speaker 1 (59:19):
But it's also there's an article I found in murder
Pedia that gave me a really good timeline and talked
a lot about these victims. And it was written by
a guy named David Lore. His article was called the
Riverside Prostitute Killer. I didn't get a year on it,
but it does seem old because it's definitely from like
the early nineties. So anyway, October thirtieth, nineteen eighty six.

(59:42):
So there's an area I don't know how much you
know Riverside, like the Riverside city or the county, even
though I'm from here. Yeah, it's like it's weird because
it's it's about an hour and a half directly south
of where we are right now, and it's never we
never go there. It's halfway between.

Speaker 2 (59:59):
Here and San Diego.

Speaker 1 (01:00:00):
It's Inland Lake Elsinore is the big like this guy. Yeah,
that lake that's nearby. It is like the kind of
the tourist nice area, and that's where this guy lived.
But almost of the murder the crime scenes are in
and around Riverside, this city itself. So there's apparently an

(01:00:22):
industrial area outside of Riverside called rubb Ado and it's
like apparently smoggy and gross and it's all factories. So
on October thirtieth, nineteen eighty six, there's a man who's
collecting cans that around that area and he comes upon
the body of a woman who's stuffed into a drainage ditch.

(01:00:43):
She's covered in blood, her clos are ripped to shreds,
and her genitals have been mutilated. So he runs. This
man who discovers this horrible crime scene runs to the
closest factory to get help, and the police identify her
as twenty three years old Michelle Gutierras, and she's from
Corpus Christi, Texas. And her autopsy reveals that she suffered

(01:01:08):
severe trauma to anal and vaginal areas. Multiple stab wounds
were discovered on her face, chest, and buttocks, and she
has ligature marks on her neck, suggesting that she'd been
strangled while she was being mutilated. So bad news right away.
So two weeks later, on December eleventh, the body of

(01:01:31):
twenty four year old Charlotte Jean Palmer is discovered near
Highway seventy four in Romoland, which is twenty five miles
away from the Gautierra's murderer scene, and her body was
so badly decomposed that they couldn't figure out the cause
of death, so they weren't even necessarily related. In January

(01:01:53):
of nineteen eighty seven, so about a month later, the
naked and mutilated body of thirty seven year old Linda
Anne Or is found along a dirt road in Lake Elsinore.
She had been dead for at least three days. They
found alcohol and cocaine in her bloodstream. Investigators later discover
that she worked part time in a fast food restaurant,

(01:02:16):
but she also had a rap sheet for drugs and
sex working. Now the investigators are starting to see that
they have three similar homicides where the young women are
being brutally stabbed to death and strangled to death. So
then four months later, on May second, nineteen eighty seven,

(01:02:38):
Martha Bess Young, twenty seven year old Martha Bess Young
is discovered in a ravine not far from the Ortega
murder site. She is fully naked in a spread eagal position.
She also had a wrap sheet for sex work and
high levels of drugs were found in her body, and

(01:02:58):
the corner determined that she's been dead for about three
weeks and she had died from a lethal dose of
amphetamines while she was being strangled.

Speaker 2 (01:03:07):
So like he injected her with amphetamines while he was
strangled or like at some point.

Speaker 1 (01:03:13):
I don't know, just that they're both exists, Like she
has a lethal dose inner system, but she the asphyxiation
is what she actually died from. But she also those
things were happening like at the same time, got it.

Speaker 2 (01:03:26):
I was picturing it, like like at the exact same time. Yes,
like he shot her up while he's with one hand
on her neck and yeah, which probably didn't happen.

Speaker 1 (01:03:37):
No, But the first woman who was found, Michelle Gutierrez,
also had stab wounds, but she lethal stab wounds, but
she died from being strangled. So they do think that
he kills them and attacks them at the same time, right,
I mean, it's like all one frenzy. It seems like okay,

(01:03:58):
so so then so then no murders for almost two years,
and then January twenty seventh to nineteen eighty nine, the
body of thirty seven year old Linda may Ruez, who
was a sex known as a sex worker, was discovered
on the beach of Lake Elsinore and her head was

(01:04:19):
buried in the sand, and the autopsy reveals she has
a high blood alcohol level and there was sand found
in her throat and.

Speaker 2 (01:04:31):
The cause of death is asphyxiation.

Speaker 1 (01:04:34):
Then, about six months later, same year, the body of
twenty eight year old Kimberly Little is discovered in Cottonwood Canyon.
Also she is also known as a sex worker and
a drug user, and her autopsy reveals the presence of
alcohol and drugs. The official cause of death is listed

(01:04:56):
as asphyxiation and they find on her they finally find
fibers and pubic hares that are not her, so they
finally find some evidence that they can use that they
don't know what to compare it against, but they're saving it.

Speaker 2 (01:05:14):
It's crazy that later that many victims they didn't have
a touch of that even right.

Speaker 1 (01:05:21):
No, I mean not as not so far that's listed
on this article.

Speaker 2 (01:05:25):
Or that they knew how to lift at that time.

Speaker 1 (01:05:27):
Yeah, maybe because it was pretty early. What year is it,
This is in the late eighties, so it started in
nineteen eighty seven.

Speaker 2 (01:05:34):
So they probably didn't know what could be like what
could be used as DNA, So even if there's some
kind of saliva or the right, they wouldn't.

Speaker 1 (01:05:42):
Know maybe maybe yeah. So but also they're starting to
I think compare they're starting to keep track of these
so it's like they know that they can see what's
standing out on these victims as they go, and so
they're like, okay, we have a pubicare that's not hers?
And like they're they're learning what to look for and

(01:06:05):
what to keep as they go. Okay, So on November eleventh,
same year, a local resident discovers the body bludgeoned and
mulated body of thirty six year old Judy Lynn Angel
near to Mescal Canyon Road. And this is just northwest
of Lake Elsinore and she also had a rap sheet

(01:06:26):
for sex working and drugs, but she they discovered defensive
wounds in her hands when she's when her autopsy is
being given. She also had several blows to the face
and ultimately she died of having her cranium crushed. So

(01:06:48):
then the next month they find the body of twenty
three year old Christina Leal in Quail Valley. Now she
fully appears, fully clothed and not having suffered any serious
abuse or mutilation. She was had a record for sex
work and drugs and at that crime scene, investigators found

(01:07:12):
found tire tracks for the first time, so they made
impressions of those tire tracks, which.

Speaker 2 (01:07:17):
I found so fascinating that they think to do that.
That to me, that's like one in a million chants
of finding that person. But yeah, I guess it can
be used. Once they find somebody, I think it's a suspect,
what kind of car did they drive at the time exactly?

Speaker 1 (01:07:30):
And when it's serial killing they know it. They start
finding taking imprints of tire tracks to compare to the
other places because they know that eventually there's going to
be some that becomes a consistent impression that they're like Okay,
this is the this is the this is the tire,
maybe this is the car. Interesting. So so then when

(01:07:53):
when she gets her autopsy, the corner finds that she
had one stab wound to the heart and they didn't
notice it at the beginning because she she had been
stripped and then re dressed by the killer.

Speaker 2 (01:08:04):
So there was no the shirt, there wasn't anything.

Speaker 1 (01:08:06):
It wasn't a stab through the shirt, it was underneath it,
so the cops didn't see it like weird right away.

Speaker 2 (01:08:13):
Yeah, super weird.

Speaker 1 (01:08:14):
Here's a weirder thing, and maybe the weirdest thing of this,
of this whole case, when they inspected the victims genital area,
they found the killer had put a light bulb up
into the woman's that the woman's womb, so he shoved

(01:08:35):
it all the way up and it was unbroken. And
it was also a very uh, it was a very
kind of different. It was an elongated light bulb. It
was a different It wasn't just a standard. It was
kind of old timey looking, it wasn't it wasn't a

(01:08:55):
common one for somewhere in something exactly. So they know
that he's escalating and he's becoming more.

Speaker 2 (01:09:04):
You know, deviant. He's starting to do weird shit that
seems like such a big clue that they're almost lucky
to have. Was she dead or alive? Would not happen.
I feel like she must have been dead.

Speaker 1 (01:09:14):
I think she must have been dead because it took
they said, it must have taken a really long time
for him to be able to put it up there unbroken.

Speaker 2 (01:09:22):
Yeah, because she would have been fighting, yes, right, oh,
for fuck sake.

Speaker 1 (01:09:26):
So he is. Then now the escalation is part of
Part of that them knowing he's escalating is because he's
leaving things behind intentionally and he's degrading them more than
average because because he was, you know, the degradation of
being left you know, often spread eagle, often half naked

(01:09:48):
in ditches and drain it, you know, in like on
these places where he's just saying, these people are garbage
with how he's leaving them. But now he's adding to
it even more. Very upset way, Okay. So then on
the morning of January eighteenth, nineteen ninety so it's actually
only a month later, but it's the next year, investigators

(01:10:11):
get called to a scene east of the I fifteen
in Lake elsinore A jogger had found the half nude
body of a woman who is identified as twenty four
year old sex worker Darla Jane Ferguson. She had been
strangled so severely that she nearly bid off her own tongue.

(01:10:32):
I didn't know that was a thing min did. Neither
investigators find tire tracks at this crime scene make impressions
at this crime scene. A month later, February eighth, nineteen ninety,
farmers working at an orchard in High Groove find that
nude body of thirty five year old Caro Lynn Miller,
also known a Suck as a sex worker and drug addict.

(01:10:56):
She had gone missing a month earlier. She had multiple
stab wounds to the chest and she also had a
wound near her right nipple. They found pubic hares on
this victim that they kept, and Uh, this murder is

(01:11:18):
where that episode of Real Detective starts because they they
basically come in and they they talk about how these
murders had been going on okay, and but they just
it was the kind of thing of like they would
have a murder and it would be a sex worker
and they would be like, oh no, and they were
like suspecting that they had a serial killer, but it

(01:11:40):
wasn't until.

Speaker 3 (01:11:43):
This.

Speaker 1 (01:11:43):
I think this may have been Bob Creed's like one
of his early like when he got put on the
case was at that point, No, because I think he
was on this task force early, But I guess that
the point of interest was when he got there and
he was looking at the crime scene, he realized that

(01:12:06):
his grandfather used to own that orchard. Whoa, And so
he's starting to go, is this guy fucking with us? Like?
Is this guy doing this on purpose? Because they also
there was a half eaten grapefruit that had been peeled,
half eaten and thrown on the victim. What the fuck?
So there was like a lot of kind of messaging
in that or that kind of like he was really

(01:12:29):
freaked out about it. So obviously the guy was taking
his time. He was purposely.

Speaker 2 (01:12:35):
Yeah, what's the word antagonizing the police?

Speaker 1 (01:12:39):
Yeah, that's what that's That's where he started to go like,
could this guy know? Could this guy have known that
this was my grandfather's Like he's like, we used to
play here when I was a little kid. Yeah, So
I wish I knew exactly when they put this task
force together. I don't have it, but basically it was

(01:13:00):
like I would say, probably after the fifth or sixth body,
they actually put a dedicated task force.

Speaker 2 (01:13:06):
Together to be like, what is going on?

Speaker 1 (01:13:08):
But they never find fingerprints at any scene. They know
that the bodies have been taken to those scenes and
dumped there that there, so they can rarely find any evidence.
And they've only found tire prints twice up up until
this point. And no semen not that, not that I've
ever heard. I feel like they shouldn't say so. Yes, so, yeah,

(01:13:33):
so the guy's very careful. Okay, so until December twenty first,
nineteen ninety, A janitor emptying the garbage a factory complex
on Iowa Avenue discovers the nude and carefully opposed body
of a young woman who turns out to be twenty

(01:13:55):
seven year olds Susan Sternfeld, also local sex worker drug addict.
There's no mutilation on her remains. She died of strangulation.
The County Corner eventually finds out. Next. Forty two year
old Kathleen Leslie Milne.

Speaker 2 (01:14:16):
Is discovered on January nineteenth.

Speaker 1 (01:14:21):
A motorist is driving by and sees her body alongside
a road northwest of Lake Elsinore. She had been rendered
unconscious by several blows to the head and strangled, but
she had been dead less than twenty four hours.

Speaker 2 (01:14:36):
Oh my god, God, I would hate to be the
person who found her.

Speaker 1 (01:14:39):
Yeah, so so horrifying. So then a couple months later,
April twenty seventh, a transient stumbles upon the body of
twenty four year old Cherie Michelle Payser, a part time
made and sex worker. She had been left in a
flower bed in a Bowling Alley parking lot. She'd been violated, strangled,

(01:15:00):
posed and this is awful. She had a toilet plunger
protruding from her vaginant. So this is a person that
is intent on degrading, after murdering, degrading these victims. And
there's a couple parts in this episode of Real Detective

(01:15:21):
where he is Bob Creed is talking and then he
just stops talking and stares, and then they just cut
away to something else. He's just like, because he's seeing
he's remembering these horrible fucking scenes that he had to
come upon end process.

Speaker 2 (01:15:35):
Well, what I noticed, too, is that it seems like
he's getting more and more bold with where he leaves
the bodies yeah, because he's not putting him in a
drainage ditch where no one will see him put it there.
It's putting in a flower bed in a.

Speaker 1 (01:15:45):
Parking lot of a like probably busy business at a
bowling alley, bowling alley. That's just so bold. Yes, exactly right,
because he's gotten away with it. Now how many twelve
times or however many whatever number I'm on, that's fucking
with them. Yeah. So now he's like, I'm smarter than
the police. I can get away with this. I'm doing
whatever I want. I can't breathe, okay.

Speaker 2 (01:16:07):
So.

Speaker 1 (01:16:09):
Now July fourth, nineteen ninety one, picnickers near railroad Canyon
Road discover the remains of thirty seven year old Sherry
Anne Latham. Also has a rap sheet for sex work
and drug use. Her hand was wrapped around nearby branches,
suggesting she was still alive when the killer left her.

(01:16:30):
Oh uh huh, And autopsy later reveals that she'd been strangled,
and they find cat hairs on her corpse. According to
her friends, she did not own a cat. So now
the investigators.

Speaker 2 (01:16:45):
Are thinking the killer does fuck, So they take those
hairs and they put them aside.

Speaker 1 (01:16:50):
Kind of monster murders women, but also has a cat.
I mean, it kind of goes to show how great
cats are. They love you no matter what, no matter
what kind of monster you are. Monsters love them no
matter what. Yeah, okay, So they get their first major
lead on August fifteenth, nineteen ninety one, because a man

(01:17:12):
driving a gray van picks up a sex worker near
the University of California Riverside, and she told investigators that
everything was fine at first. Then he becomes angry and
starts assaulting her, and she manages to jump out of
his van and run down the street. Good girl, So
he leaves, but then he stops in a nearby corner

(01:17:34):
and he picks up her friend, twenty three year old
Kelly Hammond. So in this is what's interesting. This is
this I'm reading from the a part of that article.
But in the episode of Real Detective, when they come
upon this body, Bob Creed lifts up the you know,

(01:17:59):
the tarp that's over her whatever it's covering her, and
he goes, I know this girl. No. She lives in
his neighborhood and he watched her and her mom walk
by his house a couple times a day, so he
knows her. And that's again where he's like, this guy's
fucking with me. This guy knows that I'm working on

(01:18:19):
this case. He knows these people, well.

Speaker 2 (01:18:22):
I would think this is someone I know. This is
someone who knows me right well.

Speaker 1 (01:18:26):
The other thing too, it's smart of you to think
the other thing too, is in this episode of Real Detective,
they do not mention that that either of these women
are prostitutes at all, sex workers, sorry at all, which
I think is really interesting because they basically this story
comes in as this girl her the girl that got away.

(01:18:48):
Her name is Ali white Cloud, and she comes in
and says, we are at a bar. This is how
they and I wonder if it's because that's how either
she wanted it presented, or that they were trying to
erase the stigma of sex or but it's Allie. Allie
white Cloud comes in and says, my friend and I
were at a bar and we met this guy and
she wanted to go home with him. I didn't want to.

(01:19:10):
He offered both of us a ride. I said, don't
go with him, and she did. And so she goes
to the police and gives a full description and describes
the van. So I don't whatever version of this is
the truth or whatever. I think it's interesting though it
doesn't matter. But I also think it's interesting. And I

(01:19:32):
like the fact that real detective just presented as it's
a girl that almost got pulled into a van and
then came and spoke for her.

Speaker 2 (01:19:39):
Friends to the police with respect.

Speaker 1 (01:19:43):
Yeah. Yeah, uh so so they give they do an
APB with the description of this guy, and he's the
creepiest look it's the creepiest looking picture because he's wearing
like sunglasses and with a photograph or like a drawing.
It's a drawing, it's a police sketch. And the van
he's driving is nineteen eighty nine Mitsubishi van, which is

(01:20:05):
one of the weirdest looking vans. It's got that flat front,
is that the one?

Speaker 2 (01:20:09):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (01:20:10):
Like it? Yes, Like when you're in the front seat
wherever you park, it's like you're right there. I totally
know that one. Yeah. And it has a weird almost
like a nautical window in the back, like a little
round window, like a creepy van window. Yeah. So okay,
so now they have way more information about this guy
than they've had for since nineteen eighty six. So it's

(01:20:33):
a huge it's a huge lead. They put out the APB,
and so now the cops are looking for that van.

Speaker 2 (01:20:44):
Oh.

Speaker 1 (01:20:44):
They also say is there anything else you can remember?
And she says that when he opened up the back,
she remembers seeing a red sleeping bag. And at most
of these crime scenes they found animal hair which turned
out to be a tan cat tan cat hair at

(01:21:06):
every scene, and red nylon fibers which they linked to
and match to the kind of nylon fibers that they
find on sleeping bags. What a crazy thing.

Speaker 2 (01:21:17):
I feel like there's so many people and this is
what he talks about, and someone knows something where it's like,
that is one detail that you wouldn't why would you
bother mentioning that? But that is actually really important to
the case. So that's really interesting. I thought you were
going to say that that she said she saw a
cat in his vans.

Speaker 1 (01:21:35):
No, well just it's close. It's the other right, the
other thing. But that's when in you know, they presented
in the real detective show, Like when she's giving all
that information, when she says that thing about a red
sleeping bag, he's just like, dang, this is the guy
I love it, So they put out all that information
and uh oh, so they the basically from all of

(01:22:02):
the information and the victims that they've had so far,
the task force knows this that all the victims are
found raped, stabbed, asphyxiated, nude posed. They all have ligature
marks on their wrists, angles, and neck. They have one
set of shoe impressions. So they know that he carries
them to the scene dead and leaves them there, and

(01:22:25):
that he works alone. They say that if he's married,
his wife would work nights because then he can just
do Clearly, he can do whatever he wants at night
and is not being questioned about it or no one's
suspicious of him. They never find fingerprints at any of
the scenes, but they consistently find cat hair, and they
consistently find those red nylon fibers. It wo'd be more

(01:22:48):
exciting if I had said that before that the thing
I just said. But anyhow, so on October thirtieth, nineteen
ninety one, they see a man is driving along Summer
Hilt and he sees what he thinks is a mannequin.
I'm a mannequin, you guys, ever.

Speaker 2 (01:23:07):
A fucking mannequin.

Speaker 1 (01:23:08):
He goes up and finds that it's the dead body
of thirty five year old Delilah Zamora Wallace, mother of five,
also known sex worker and drug addict. She is also
her cause of death is asphyxiation. Then, two days before Christmas,
Eleanor Ojeda Cassaris's body is found near Victoria Avenue, which

(01:23:33):
is just down the street from the Riverside Police station. Uh.
She's thirty nine years old. She's been strangled and her
right breast is missing. We not the movies, I always say,
not the movies. So she was also had a wrap
sheet for sex work and drugs, and the cops are

(01:23:55):
positive that he placed her there too close to the
police station, took up with them. Sure. So the very
last victim is thirty one year old Katherine McDonald. She's
found raped and murdered in a field by a construction worker.
There they find a set of tire tracks and they
find footprints that match a pro wing tennis shoe. They

(01:24:21):
know now he's rushing, he's escalating because this is the
sloppiest he's ever been. So they process all of that.
Then they go to make a next known next of kin,
you know, they go to tell notification for the next skin,
they go to her house. They find the front door

(01:24:43):
open and the house is dark. They walk through the house,
gun's drawn, and they finally find Catherine's three year old daughter,
who's been by herself since her mother disappeared the night before,
hiding downstairs. So sad, and it's the saddest part of
the whole episode, this little girl who was just hiding

(01:25:04):
alone in a house because her mom didn't come back.
Her mom went, took the garbage out and disappeared.

Speaker 2 (01:25:09):
Oh so she didn't even see anything.

Speaker 1 (01:25:11):
She's just like her mom walked outside and never came
back inside at night. Horrifying. Okay, so she was snatched, Yes,
she was, and which he hadn't done that before. It
was out in front of her own house. So my god,
they have all together. They had found five different types

(01:25:31):
of tire prints at these crime scenes. So so Bob
Creed decides he asked the guide to check, is there
one type of van that could use all five of those.

Speaker 2 (01:25:45):
Types of tires?

Speaker 1 (01:25:46):
And one type of van comes back, and it's a
nineteen eighty nine Minsubishi and it's this type of van.

Speaker 2 (01:25:54):
It's so weird looking.

Speaker 1 (01:25:56):
So on the night of January ninth, nineteen ninety two
of Sir Frank Orda is patrolling University Avenue, which is
where a lot of sex workers were known to walk,
and he sees that exact type of van. Fuck, so
he follows it. Can you imagine seeing that? Yeah? There

(01:26:16):
it is? What the fuck? And it has expired tags
and so he pulls it over and he talks to
the driver a little bit. He asks the driver to
open up the back of the van. The driver says, sure,
no problem. He opens it up. There's a red sleeping
bag there, and the officer places him under arrest. Now
they bring him into the station and somebody immediately starts

(01:26:39):
questioning him. They don't wait for Bob Creed, who is
the head of this task force for like five fucking years.
They don't wait for him to come down to question him.
Just whoever was there? I don't know exactly how it happened.
So the guy they arrest immediately is like, I want
a lawyer. I'm not saying anything, son of a count man.
So Bob Creed doesn't even get to question. Oh but

(01:27:01):
here's what they end up finding out that the guy,
the driver of this van is a man named Bill
suff He was born August twentieth, nineteen fifty, in Torrance, California.
According to his high school classmates, he was friendly, a
skillful musician, and he graduated eighty seventh in a class
of one hundred and forty four. So not a you know,

(01:27:22):
sounds like a C minus student. His brothers were very troubled.
One of them was a drug addict, the other was
a pedophile. Oof suff ended up living in Texas, and
there in nineteen seventy four, when he was twenty four
years old, he and his former rice former wife were

(01:27:43):
arrested and later convicted for the beating death of their
two year old daughter, Our youth, fucking kidding me. He
was there sentenced to seventy years in prison, but he
was paroled after serving ten years. Right no if served
twenty months, but her condition was overturned when it was
found that he was fully responsible for the beating death

(01:28:06):
of a two year old child.

Speaker 2 (01:28:08):
Can you imagine not only having your child beat to
death by your husband, but then getting sent to being
held responsible and sent like she's mourning in the most
painful way, and then.

Speaker 1 (01:28:20):
She goes to jail, and in jail, you hurt your
own kid. If you're in jail for hurting your own kid,
you're like a pedophile in man's jail. Jesus. I mean
they are like tortured. And so, yeah, she didn't. She's
spent over a year in prison as a baby killer.
So when Bill suff is paroled, he goes back to

(01:28:44):
southern California and gets out of Texas and he then
gets a job. He's now forty one years old. He
gets a job as a stock clerk and he is
known to be a writer of books. He likes to
drive fancy cars. He does community service work. He also
likes to impersonate police officers. Of course he does. His

(01:29:06):
neighbors described him as a friendly nerd who was always
doing things to help people. What the fuck? Yeah, So
basically now Bob Creed is scrambling to find evidence they
can hold him on because they finally have him in custody.
But you know he's going to get he's going to
get out, and he's and more women are going to die.

(01:29:26):
So they look into his background. They find out that
he works for Riverside County Supply. So he is a
clerk at the supply company that supplies desks and chairs
for the Riverside Police Department. So when they were putting

(01:29:46):
together the task force and building the task force, every
time they would order a desk or some chairs or
a chalkboard, well, Bill suff was the guy that would
come and deliver it straight in the room where they
were investigating his serial murders.

Speaker 2 (01:30:06):
I bet he enjoyed that so much.

Speaker 1 (01:30:09):
He not only enjoyed it, he knew exactly what they
were doing. So the first time they knew that they
had tire imprints, he changed the tires on his van
every time he would go in there because they were constantly.
At one point, they said some officers working on the
case asked him if they could use his phone and

(01:30:29):
made a phone call on his phone trying to track
something down for the murders he was committing. So he
was just this neutral face in the background that they
saw as like, oh, that's the delivery guy, that's the
clerk guy. But meanwhile he was all eyes and ears.
Every time he was in that room, he was photo

(01:30:50):
looking at everything, he was memorizing all of it. He
knew exactly what they were doing, and he knew who they.

Speaker 2 (01:30:55):
Were, which is weird that he then didn't get rid
of the red sleeping bag.

Speaker 1 (01:30:58):
Kind of right, that must not have been a prominent
thing up on the board. But it's so amazing because
they in real detective, they set it in really perfectly
where he's in the bat when like the first time
they have the task force meeting, Bob Creed clears the
room and then starts telling everybody blah blah blah. Well,
Bill suff is one of the people he asked to

(01:31:19):
leave the room, so he's in there like he's working
side by side with an like near the police. So
Bob Creed gets a search warrant for Bill Suff's house,
and when he arrives there, he's surprised to meet Bill
Souff's eighteen year old white Oh god, so this is

(01:31:42):
where it all comes together. She tells the detective she
works nights. He's standing in their kitchen. She offers to
make coffee. She's like, I need coffee because I'm so
tired because I was up all night. He's like, oh,
you work nights. A tan cat runs through the room.
He looks over and sees a pair of pro wing
tennis shoes over in the corner where all the shoes

(01:32:03):
are by the back door. So when he's looking out
the window, he sees a truck bed that's filled with
tires and he's like, what's up with the tires And
she's like, oh, he's always out there changing the tires
on that van. So he was changing the tires. Anytime
he would see them get a tire imprint, he would
change the tires on his van. Then the kicker is

(01:32:27):
he looks at the lamp that's hanging over the kitchen table,
tips it up and sees it's exactly the same kind
of light bulb that was left inside his victim. And
he's like, this is we're here. So he essentially they
arrest him, they get him. He has tried and convicted
for twelve counts of first degree murder and one count

(01:32:49):
of attempted murder. The jury deliberated for ten minutes, Oh
my god, and they came back. They gave him the
death Penalty's he's still on death row in San Quentin
to this day, and the police believe he is responsible
for twenty two murders, if not more in Riverside County.

Speaker 2 (01:33:07):
I wonder what you know, he was gone for those
two years. I wonder where he went and what happened.

Speaker 1 (01:33:11):
Yeah, time you mean where there was no bodies found, yeah,
or yeah, there was no vicend for two years. Yeah,
because that's a long time, and he usually it just
goes faster and faster. Yeah. And Bob Creed, who I
have to say, is just like one of those I
feel like detectives are those they're like all the good
cops become detectives. It's like the ones that are on

(01:33:33):
the street that are good at it and they're smart
and the hair. Yeah, and they get promoted and they
become detectives. And he so clearly was one of those
people that like treated these women like his neighbors and
his friends. And he when he talks about going to
talk to Kelly Hammond's mother, it's like a big part
of that episode where he's like, we know these people,
we have to tell them, we have to now change
their life for the worst by us being there and

(01:33:55):
being like your daughter is dead. Yeah. He eventually, Detective
Bob Creed eventually became the head of Major Crimes, the
Major Crimes unit in Riverside County. Yeah, and that's the
Riverside serial killer. I was fucking crazy and I have
no idea. Good job, dude, thanks, I know I had

(01:34:18):
no idea either, Like Riverside is close by and I've
never heard of that guy either.

Speaker 2 (01:34:24):
It's so funny, like the way you find these murders. Now,
I just put in the weirdest searches and you still
don't know anything. I know what's going on.

Speaker 1 (01:34:33):
Also, I do find it fascinating like that they know
almost nothing about this guy's childhood, which I would love
to know because obviously it was insanely fucked up. If
his two brothers are insanely fucked up and he is
the worst of all of them, Migro would love to
know what kind of evil and insane parents they had
and what that situation was. But I really love that

(01:34:56):
show for how much it really shows. It's like this
side that you never get to hear, which is these detectives,
and like the experience that they go through and the
years sometimes that they spend trying to find these killers.
It's just it's so insane. There's there's the one on
the killer that you did the guy yeah, Ben Mendelssohn

(01:35:19):
Uh No, his last name is Ben something? Oh uh
child bar jonah? Yes, yes, yes, well that wasn't even
what I was saying. And you knew what I was saying.

Speaker 2 (01:35:28):
I'm so shocked that any of that. And what I
like about that show too is that it it gives
you little glimpses into the PTSD that you know they
fucking have, and so they're not trying to be like,
this is what happened.

Speaker 1 (01:35:39):
It's like, are you the one? I the one I did?
He starts crying, Yes, No, they suffer terribly. I mean Jesus,
like that guy having to it was like a child
killer that had multiple victims. Yeah, and every story was horrible,
and that one is especially great because the way he
he just the way he eventually find is he starts

(01:36:01):
walking the path that those children were taking to school
and he finds Barjonas standing in a security guard outfit
at the end of one of those alleys.

Speaker 2 (01:36:09):
This is why you make them move their finger from
the photo. That's right, that's why you.

Speaker 1 (01:36:14):
I can do it.

Speaker 2 (01:36:15):
That's exactly right. If someone knocks on your door, if
you get pulled over and they're holding up a badge,
you fucking call that number into the police department and
make sure it's real before you Yeah, I guess if
you're on a rural area, if you're alone, in the house.

Speaker 1 (01:36:30):
Now you're finding reasons to say rural. God damn it,
I am. You're right rural. You can say farmland.

Speaker 2 (01:36:37):
You're in farmland, out in the country, out in the country.
Do not you don't have to. You don't have to.

Speaker 1 (01:36:45):
Well, you get to check first. It's your right. And like,
I'll tell you what. Those FBI agents flip that. The
one guy flipped open his quiet friend behind him. I
was like, what are you doing.

Speaker 2 (01:36:56):
I kind of looked like they were coming for us.

Speaker 1 (01:36:58):
Take it away, little bit. But the you don't look
at the ID when someone flips a thing like that
at you. You look at the badge. You look at
the thing where you're like, oh, this is a real cop,
and you get all caught up in the kind.

Speaker 2 (01:37:11):
Of like the gold badge part. I wonder if you're
allowed to say, hand me that, and I want to
look at it. What's your name, what's your this, what's
your that?

Speaker 1 (01:37:17):
Well, a real cop would give it to you. Yeah,
what would they have to lose? Yeah, totally. I mean
they would want you to believe they were a cop.
It's why they're showing it to you.

Speaker 2 (01:37:27):
Listen, hey, be overly cautious instead.

Speaker 1 (01:37:33):
Of everyone listening is like, we are, Yeah, you've already
taught us that. We know we did that before.

Speaker 2 (01:37:41):
Oh my god, that's all this podcast is just warning
you and scaring you and giving you anxiety. It's then
telling you how to get rid of your anxiety.

Speaker 1 (01:37:50):
What's a positive thing from this week?

Speaker 2 (01:37:53):
I fucking totally knew it at some point and I
forgot it. What's yours?

Speaker 1 (01:37:59):
I would just say that this my this past birthday
was like one of the best birthdays I've ever had,
because I'm at the age now where like I honestly
don't care about birthday, So the last couple have been
super low key, if not totally doing nothing.

Speaker 2 (01:38:15):
You didn't even fucking we were recording that day and
you didn't tell me.

Speaker 1 (01:38:18):
I know, I mean I didn't.

Speaker 2 (01:38:19):
Remember, well, but why would you. I mean that you
should have told me, but you didn't care, so you don't.

Speaker 1 (01:38:25):
Yeah, But but that was in my mind. I was like,
it doesn't matter and I don't care. But it's actually
not true because you well, first of all, so many
people because of your tweet, responded to the lovely tweet
you sent to me about my birthday. But there were
just so many nice things and not just people the
listen to the podcast, but then like my actual friends

(01:38:47):
knew and said lovely things. And it's like when you
actually give people a chance to do that, if they
want to, then they do and it's really nice and
it makes them feel good too. Yeah, exactly, It's just
I was just lovely and we had that fun dinner
and watching DC. Yeah, it was so nice, Like what
if I just threw up for no reason. It was

(01:39:10):
just like a really lovely, kind of redefining birthday experience.
I love that. Yeah, it was nice. Happy birthday, Thanks, congratulations,
thanks so much. Way to go.

Speaker 2 (01:39:23):
Something I love or I'm happy about is when Stephen
baby sits the cats when we go out of town.
It just makes me so happy because I know they
love him and they like hanging out with him. And
I know this because Stephen. The first couple days of
us being gone, Stephen Baby's out them and send me
photos constantly, and I could tell they were happy and
they don't run away when he comes in. And then

(01:39:44):
my dad was going to stay at our place for
the rest of the weekend, and so Stephen left and
when my dad, who doesn't like cats, came in the door,
he said, Oh, Elvis came out at first and then
ran away immediately, and I think he thought my dad
was Stephen and got excited the guy who gives them
all the cookies was there, and then realized it was

(01:40:04):
my dad randomly.

Speaker 1 (01:40:05):
So thanks Stephen. It means a lot to me that
to have someone there who I really I milled loves
my cats.

Speaker 4 (01:40:12):
Yeah, I mean I just have the best time. And
like I've always told you that, like I'll come over here.
You're always like you and Vince always like come do
some work, hang out for a while, and then I
end up just hanging out with the cats, get anything done.
It's just pictures of Elvis, good pets.

Speaker 1 (01:40:26):
Yeah, I love it a good time.

Speaker 2 (01:40:28):
You have my Instagram password for the cats too, so
I'm like, fucking go for it.

Speaker 1 (01:40:33):
It's great.

Speaker 2 (01:40:34):
Thank you, So thanks for doing that. And yes I
pay him, don't worry, I'm not you get paid and
loving in my cats being nice to you. Yeah, but
you guys, thanks for listening. Yeah, we really appreciate it,
and you guys are this is the best. I can't
this is the best.

Speaker 1 (01:40:50):
It's pretty nice.

Speaker 2 (01:40:51):
It is.

Speaker 1 (01:40:52):
Yeah, I like it all right.

Speaker 2 (01:40:53):
Well, you guys stay sexy and don't get murdered. Elvis,
you want a cookie?

Speaker 1 (01:41:01):
Okay, bye?

Speaker 4 (01:41:05):
Yeah, I love the new Mike said, if you can just.

Speaker 1 (01:41:08):
Know I have them here. I