99 - Shin Kick

Karen and Georgia cover the case of Jennifer Pan and the murder of Irene Garza.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:17):
Oh yes, do you hear the sounds of the podcast train,
of the ghost podcast train.

Speaker 2 (00:23):
Oh yeah, it hasn't been a ghost podcast train and
the twenty five yours. That voice has gone totally into
a southern bell area that where it doesn't belong.

Speaker 1 (00:34):
I love it there. I want to stay there.

Speaker 2 (00:36):
It was supposed to be an old a minor forty nine. Yeah,
but no, I've changed the scene.

Speaker 1 (00:42):
I don't care. I love it there.

Speaker 2 (00:44):
Great. Thank you for your support. Welcome to my favorite murder. Yes,
that's Georgia Hart. Start, that's Karen Kilgariff, and we heard it.
Talk to you about a couple things called crimes.

Speaker 1 (00:54):
And true truthness.

Speaker 2 (00:57):
We love truthiness. We also enjoy talking about crimes.

Speaker 1 (01:01):
Will never lie to you. Well, we'll not get things.

Speaker 2 (01:05):
Right, yes, not intentionally right, you're right, but we won't lie.
But there will be times when we deeply mislead you, huh.
And we'll get you to say the wrong thing to
your friends and co workers and a braggy voice.

Speaker 3 (01:16):
But they'll believe you because of your tone right and
your delivery. What we're telling you is, it's all about
tone in in incantation.

Speaker 2 (01:25):
It's all about incantations and it's all about spells, and
it's about having short term jobs that you don't have
to go back and see the same people after like
two weeks because you've lied to them so much.

Speaker 3 (01:34):
God, you meet one person in the whole in the
eight jobs you've had as a temp, that's like you're
the best person you've met.

Speaker 2 (01:41):
Then they you will go on to marry that person. Right,
this is our guarantee to you, and so keep you
here to look around the office. Right now is your
eighth person, your future spouse, right sitting near you. Pick them.
You have fifteen seconds.

Speaker 1 (01:56):
Kick them, pick them, kick them the rather you kick them.

Speaker 2 (02:01):
Kicking them is a great way to start the flirting,
if you take it from me, seven year old Karen Kilgariff,
a good shin kick. There's no better way to say
I love you.

Speaker 3 (02:11):
Karen has stuck with her flirting technique and she'll never
let it go.

Speaker 1 (02:14):
And we like your tenacity.

Speaker 2 (02:16):
Thank you. I feel like it, like having a big
butt is gonna come into fashion. I just have to
wait it out. There was a time where I thought
no kicking people and shins would never come into fashion
in terms of flirting, but.

Speaker 3 (02:30):
So many things have well in this climate and yes,
fucking in this rough climate of fucking you know, ladies.

Speaker 2 (02:38):
First doggy dog. The future's female, but there's also there's
a parallel future of Nazis.

Speaker 1 (02:45):
And there's a good things.

Speaker 3 (02:46):
Meam Bolick is fucking arguing about shit that doesn't make
any sense. It's like, no, kicking in the shin's gonna
be the only way we let anyone know you.

Speaker 2 (02:56):
To break through to say hey, you matter to.

Speaker 1 (02:58):
Me and you have blossomed and not fucking anti feminists.

Speaker 2 (03:02):
Yeah, asshole, and so take and so prep yourself before
you wreck your shins.

Speaker 1 (03:11):
And this has been this, Oh, this has been an
ad for HelloFresh this whole time. Anyways, go to promo
code Murder.

Speaker 3 (03:21):
Do you have a really quick shout out to the
two ladies, Please do the too. Fucking So, we just
finished our last weekend tour of twenty seventeen YEP in
Saint Louis and Kansas City. It was a fucking amazing
fun weekend. Thank you, guys, thank you. We meet a
bunch of awesome people after the show at the meet
and greet, and everyone, like every fourth person comes up

(03:43):
in a shirt, a homemade my favorite Murder shirt, that's
just funny and weird and shit that we don't remember saying,
or is like something they drew.

Speaker 1 (03:50):
It's it's always funny.

Speaker 2 (03:51):
Oh.

Speaker 1 (03:52):
There was two girls that had stay Sexy, Don't get
Murdered in wing Edings.

Speaker 2 (03:56):
Yes that I and I was like, do people oh no,
it was yeah SSDGM Wingedings yes, And I was like,
does anyone is anyone able to read wing Dings off
the dome and then know what that says? And they
were like not yet. Fast was great.

Speaker 3 (04:14):
And then there were two other ladies and they had
shirts that just said promo code murder and I was
just like, you fucking subtle as fuck, badass bitches.

Speaker 2 (04:24):
That is so hard.

Speaker 1 (04:25):
We never even crossed our minds that that was like
a funny thing.

Speaker 2 (04:29):
The wing Dings also included a bomb.

Speaker 3 (04:31):
Yeah, because I don't get I think murdered must be
bomb right, Well, there was a bomb at the end,
like the little like cartoon bomb.

Speaker 2 (04:40):
But I thought those things only represented the letter Yeah,
oh so it wouldn't be murdered. But I just thought
it was coincidental that a bomb would be in there
because it was SS. I think it was the D
was a bomb. I don't know something in there. It
doesn't matter. It was still great.

Speaker 1 (04:55):
It was the bomb.

Speaker 2 (04:56):
It was great and great looking. It was the bomb.
Also someone in Kansas City. By the time it got
back to us, we got so many nice presents and
thanks to you guys, we got tons of stuff. Backstage,
there's a lot of people that were worried saying, we
gave you something and then they took it away from us.

Speaker 3 (05:10):
The shit you guys bring the theater is like, you
cannot bring that in here.

Speaker 2 (05:14):
You can't bring the severed head of Ted Bundy into
our theater. Please don't. But it's actually a cake. Sorry,
you can't. Yeah, So we got a whole table full.
It was like Christmas backstage for us. Somebody made a
plastic baggy filled with the best chocolate chip cookies I've
ever had. I think there was either rice crispies or
cornflakes in them, so they were really small and crispy.

(05:37):
Whoever did that, God bless you. I ate maybe six
of them just standing there talking. We got a full cheesecake.
Oh my god, people went crazy for that cheesecake.

Speaker 3 (05:44):
We got this a haunted scary clown, the doll it's
over there. Yeah, so these lovely women, these two women
brought I don't know where the fuck they must have founded,
Like I think they set a secondhand shop. Yeah, and
they were like somehow they sounded were like Karen, Georgia need.

Speaker 1 (06:00):
This, Like what does that say about us?

Speaker 3 (06:03):
It was like a raggedy ann homemade clown doll from
the seventies.

Speaker 2 (06:08):
Knitted knitted that like clearly whatever child got it was
terrified of it because it didn't look like it had
been touched.

Speaker 3 (06:16):
No, because one side of the clown's face, one side
of the clown was a happy clown. And then you
turned it over and we're going to post it, and
it was the most terrifying clown sad face you've ever seen.

Speaker 2 (06:27):
Yes, with silver tears knitted onto the face.

Speaker 1 (06:30):
Steven, you're gonna have to post it, okay.

Speaker 2 (06:32):
It is so upsetting. And also the best part was
the way the girl this was in Saint Louis. Yeah,
the way the girl walked up holding it or a
woman sorry I always do that, she held it like
she was also a ghost, Like she walked up really
weird and stiff and kind of like really slowly, like
she had.

Speaker 3 (06:50):
Been looking forward to giving this to us for two
months and she was like, finally it's tears.

Speaker 2 (06:54):
Yes, it was so good. Everything about the presentation, she
said to me, she goes turn it home. Yeah, and
then it was horror show. Yeah, so anyway you guys
will see it.

Speaker 4 (07:05):
I was going to say, wing Dings, the bomb is m.

Speaker 1 (07:10):
Yep, all right, okay, perfect I am. It just happens
to be a bomb. I got that.

Speaker 2 (07:14):
It's so perfect for us too.

Speaker 1 (07:16):
Wing Dings was made for us.

Speaker 5 (07:18):
Oh my god, wing Dings things is like my personal
I didn't know I loved like because I've loved a
lot of fonts m hmm, mostly Times New Roman, but
wing Dings, you know, I.

Speaker 2 (07:29):
Only use Georgia Faon I know.

Speaker 3 (07:30):
But from here on out, I'm doing my fucking bullet
journal only in Wings from now on.

Speaker 2 (07:36):
Good bye.

Speaker 3 (07:36):
Oh it's so perfect, okay bye?

Speaker 2 (07:41):
Uh oh what do you have? I was going to
say a couple things about my sweet Adrina, because I
was talking about it over the weekend.

Speaker 1 (07:48):
With people like A lives care because I don't.

Speaker 2 (07:51):
I really care so much. And I know that there
are people who like sped through reading it, and there
are people who responded of like I thought we were
going to do it, but then.

Speaker 3 (07:59):
We were doing a thing and then we were like, nope, goodbye,
Just like if you're not if this is episode ninety nine,
if you don't know that by now.

Speaker 2 (08:05):
Yeah, flak gru Except for I really do. It's just
taking me forever to read it because this book, I've
been taking it on two fronts, which is I have
a hard bound copy next to my bed like an
old widow, and then I eat out a box of
chocolates as I read it. And then I also have
the audio book, so I was listening to it on
the plane, and I just would like to read.

Speaker 1 (08:27):
A couples That makes me so happy.

Speaker 2 (08:30):
Oh and also, so many people have said, you have
to listen to teen Creeps because they have this great
episode on this, but I don't want to listen to
that until I'm done reading this book, so it doesn't
influence what I'm saying in any way. Sure, if that
makes sense, Okay, So I will definitely do that because
so many people have recommended it, even our own Steven.
They did an episode of uh what episode was it?

Speaker 4 (08:50):
Like, well, they've done my seater, Gina. But I was
just gonna say I've been on the podcast twice and
it's been really fun. Okay, Lindsay and Kelly are really
sweet and they they I mean, the fact that they
read a book every week to do this podcast is incredible.

Speaker 2 (09:04):
What. Oh, but it's it's mostly ya.

Speaker 4 (09:07):
Yeah, it's all like arl Stein and oh okay, Christopher Pike.

Speaker 1 (09:10):
Still this shit's yeah.

Speaker 2 (09:12):
Still, that's two hundred pages.

Speaker 1 (09:13):
How do they do it? Read me a thing?

Speaker 2 (09:15):
Okay, we have to write a book.

Speaker 1 (09:16):
Report.

Speaker 2 (09:17):
They have to read a book. They have to read
a book and talk about report and report it. Okay,
So I'm now in the part where she meets no
I don't have his name written here. Old, boring old Audrina.
She we're boring old. Second best, nobody likes.

Speaker 1 (09:34):
You, Adrina.

Speaker 2 (09:36):
You're not the dead one, therefore you're not as good. Audrina,
calm down, an are second best. Second place is first loser,
versts the worst. Second is the worst, second is worse her.
She goes into the forest, which she's constantly forbidden to
go into. It's stupid.

Speaker 1 (09:54):
We've told you by her family how many times.

Speaker 2 (09:56):
She's nine A quick reminder for people, she's nine years old.
Then she goes into the forest. There's a home in
the forest where and of course I'm picturing it full
on gingerbread house. And in the house is a boy
I think his name is Auden. And then his mother
lives there too, and she hides behind a tree and
watches him break the yard. And in the book it's

(10:19):
talking about like how he has a hot ass, and shit,
he's twelve years old. I swear to god, you see, Andrew.
I mean, I think she's just laying out a lot
of like, let's let's just break all these taboos. Is
she a pedophile? No, I think she's welcoming your mind
to explore options. You have up until this point told
yourself you are not allowed to explore pedophilia. Well, or

(10:41):
just a light appreciation of a twelve year old boy's
ass in jeans privately, so in a book. Then she
gets caught being in the woods peeping, being a peeping hog. Yeah,
a nine year old stalker, and so her father comes
storming in grabs her. Every interaction with her and her father,

(11:04):
I get so nervous it's going to boil over into incest.
Every time they talk or have breakfast or whatever. There's
so much inappropriate in like intensity. Yeah, but at one
point he starts. He says to her, common people will
will drain your specialness. And I had to write it
down because she's saying He's saying, like, you're too good

(11:26):
to talk to those people in the woods.

Speaker 3 (11:28):
Oh you Audrina, who were making you the creepiest, creeping
creep though, Yeah, don't talk to common people they are
fucking Yeah.

Speaker 1 (11:35):
She's like, take my specialness please, I'm so sick.

Speaker 2 (11:38):
Of this specialness. But she's she like a quick remind
her she's a nine year old and her hair is
all colors and her eyes are all colored. What the
fuck was that? It's it's like it's like she's a
calico child and that's part of her specialness. Oh. Also
the description of when Vera gets spanked by daddy. Oh yeah,

(12:00):
and it's down to like her ass burning through her
thin underwear. Like it gets into a detail where I'm like, no,
this is I.

Speaker 3 (12:08):
Think we need to talk to VC Andrews. We need
available I don't know, we need to have a little
fucking quickie convo with her.

Speaker 2 (12:17):
I mean, look it really it just right. It goes
right up to the edge and then and then scatters back.

Speaker 1 (12:23):
And then kicks it in the shin.

Speaker 2 (12:24):
And then says I have a crush on you in
zest and runs away. It's so crazy bruised shins. Yes, oh,
and then I said this at the show the other night.
But my favorite, I'm assuming it's a misprint. It's she
describes somebody, and I'm pretty sure it's cousin Vera coming
down the hall clumsily clumbering, which I'm like, I'm almost

(12:46):
positive clumbering isn't a word.

Speaker 1 (12:48):
Clumbering makes so much sense, though.

Speaker 2 (12:50):
It makes more sense, but you can't if you're gonna
say clumbering and.

Speaker 1 (12:53):
Not lumbering, I don't need clumsy as well.

Speaker 2 (12:55):
Get clumsy out of there and get a different adjective
without the cl at the beginning, because now you're clumsily
clumbering is your borderline? Like Rod Dull, why don't you
just start singing a song opah opa style.

Speaker 3 (13:07):
And it's like, okay, stop tripping over your own fucking feet.

Speaker 1 (13:11):
Yeah you know who via everyone.

Speaker 2 (13:13):
She's a big fucking clumber.

Speaker 1 (13:14):
It's the girl. Okay.

Speaker 3 (13:16):
Speaking of books about children, I have one to talk about. Okay,
but this is a bad one. I mean not this
is a badder. This is a real one. Okay, So
last week we got in the in r PO box
a couple books from a woman who lives in Ohio
and gave us two, like Ohio true crime books. You

(13:36):
took one and I kept the other and started reading it,
and I am halfway through not.

Speaker 1 (13:41):
Fucking obsessed with it. Okay, it's so good.

Speaker 3 (13:43):
This is a woman named Karen sent these to us,
and it's this one's called Amy My Search for Her Killer. Here,
I'll show it to you because she's this is a
true crime one. Her name's Amy Mahalovic. She's from a
Cleveland suburb and she disappeared on UH in October of
nineteen eighty nine.

Speaker 1 (14:02):
And this dude, James Renner.

Speaker 3 (14:04):
Who's the author, who's like he like, pitched it to
his like newspaper in town and he was working on
and now this whole book is written by him trying
to find out and going through fucking each suspect and
talking to the you know, the the main investigator of
the FBI agent's the fucking family. And it's written so well.
And he inserts himself in the book in a way

(14:25):
that doesn't suck because he was the same age as
she was when she disappeared. At town Over and like,
so it's part of him and the way that we
didn't understand, right, Yeah, the way that we remember growing
up and seeing this person's face and how much it
meant to us. And it's it is such a fucking
good book, amazing, and I can't wait to finish it.

(14:46):
So it's it's called Amy A Search for My Search
for Her Killer by James Renner, and I'm totally obsessed
with it.

Speaker 2 (14:53):
And in case you can't find it because it looks pretty,
it's called It's a published by Gray and Company Publishers
www dot grayco dot com.

Speaker 1 (15:05):
G R E Y g R sorry g R A Y.

Speaker 2 (15:07):
So if you can't find it in normal ways, it's
on grayc dot com.

Speaker 3 (15:11):
It's written so well James Renner. You can, like you
can tell how much it means to him when he's
writing it, and it makes the book so heartfelt and
interesting and wonderful, and I really love it.

Speaker 2 (15:24):
Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, he's got a good face, he does. Yeah,
you really don't do a lot of that. Yeah, dang girl.

Speaker 3 (15:31):
All weekend I've been reading that, good girl, I know,
instead of drinking kind of like I can't drink too
much because I want to read this book. King's James,
you fucking cured my alcohol as.

Speaker 2 (15:43):
We Yeah, that's right, James, James, you should send him
a Starbucks card. Oh that, I swear to God. That
wasn't an intentional segue. But I would like to thank
Live Nation. Yes, no, no, no. I went to Starbucks
the other night in Glendale because just running errands, and

(16:04):
it was the night before I get so weird before
we leave, when you travel and I have to buy
things that I want to make sure are there when
I get back, I get real OCD weird.

Speaker 1 (16:13):
Tellus you like you're like black dress, I need a
black dress and all that.

Speaker 2 (16:16):
No, nothing I actually need. I do things like I
need coffee, so I have coffee.

Speaker 1 (16:21):
Here when I get back, Like weird, I wonder what
that means.

Speaker 2 (16:24):
It's just like it's part of my not wanting to
leave the house in the first place. So I start
telling myself, like if I go, I won't be ready. Yeah,
there's a I have a real stocking problem.

Speaker 1 (16:34):
Huh. But I went as Audrina.

Speaker 2 (16:37):
It is the second and worst shitty, a creepiest and
pepist Audrena.

Speaker 1 (16:42):
The creepiest, babiest stockiest.

Speaker 2 (16:44):
Ever nine year old behind a rain.

Speaker 1 (16:46):
Tree with a twelve year old. But Audrina, there's like.

Speaker 2 (16:49):
A whole picnic scene where I'm like, nine year olds
and twelve year olds don't go on picnics.

Speaker 1 (16:53):
Stop. Twelve year olds are one hundred years apart. Yes,
nobody wants. No twelve year old wants to talk to
a nine year.

Speaker 2 (16:58):
Old unless she has hair that it's purple, gold, yellow, orange,
and red. Okay. So I went to the I went
to the the Starbucks closest to the designer shoe warehouse,
and I went in and the only coffee they had
out were was Christmas Blend. So I asked the girl
behind the counter if they had Italian. That's my kind.

(17:20):
She says, hold on, I'll get my cowork to go
look for it. Are you fascist a little bit? Yeah?
I only I like Italy, just from like nineteen thirty
five to write around forty three.

Speaker 1 (17:32):
Fair enough.

Speaker 2 (17:33):
The girl comes out of the back holding like the
one bag of Italian and when she the doors fly open,
she's like, oh my god. And then I was like hey,
I was like that's for me, and she's like, okay,
I love your podcast. And then that's my favorite reaction
when people seem genuinely bummed, like they don't want to
say it, but they've already acted weird and it was

(17:54):
super cute. Anyway, long story short, she didn't act weird
that that sounds just metal. She was very sweet and
seemed happy and surprise. And then she gave me a
free pound of coffee. And I was like, wait, hold on,
I don't want you to pay for my coffee. And
then she's like, no, we get a free pound every week.

Speaker 1 (18:09):
It was like her pound she would have had at
home with her roommates.

Speaker 2 (18:13):
That's right, I'd like to take that away from her, right,
So thank you too. Thank you to Mariah at the
Glendale Starbucks. You front and me your friends and family coffee.
That's what she said, anyway.

Speaker 1 (18:25):
Friends and fascist coffee. Thank you, Mariah.

Speaker 2 (18:28):
My Mussolini SIPs. I love it. I love Italians. I
love the way they make coffee. Did you come home
from your trip happy that you had coffee? Yes, pre
ground already in the thing. Come on, because the mistake
I always make is then oh forget, I'll just get
the whole bean at the grocery store. Now, no, yeh
never terrible.

Speaker 1 (18:46):
Listen creates.

Speaker 2 (18:47):
Look, it creates garbage on your counter.

Speaker 1 (18:50):
Don't want that, can't have it.

Speaker 2 (18:54):
Steven's got one.

Speaker 1 (18:54):
Stephen's pointing at a thing.

Speaker 3 (18:57):
Oh good, okay, Stephen almost deleted thisime higher episode.

Speaker 1 (19:01):
The magic, the magic that just happened.

Speaker 2 (19:03):
You wouldn't, I mean, you heard it? How could any
of that get recaptured? I love thinking of people who
start this podcast this late on, and the way we
start this thing is like a word puzzle, like, who
the fuck would know what was going on?

Speaker 3 (19:17):
Why are they talking about in my sweet Audrina and
kicking people in the shins? Oh, it's the first time
of Hanukah. Oh yeah, a hanakah miracle happened today?

Speaker 2 (19:26):
What was it? So?

Speaker 3 (19:27):
My thing, my thing that I'm looking I'm happy about
this week. At the end of the episode was going
to be that my mom and I are going to
therapy on Thursday. She's coming with me to therapy. Wow,
We're gonna sit in therapy together and work out why
she's such a fucking stupid bitch.

Speaker 1 (19:41):
No no, no, no, no, no no no no.

Speaker 3 (19:43):
We're gonna work some shit out and work it out
because we're fighting right now. I'm not speaking, But here's
what happened. I accidentally told her it was Tuesday, our
therapy appointment. So she called me. I was like, where
the fuck are you not? She was like where are you?
And so I made her come meet Vince and I
for lunch and we work some shit out.

Speaker 2 (20:02):
Oh that's good?

Speaker 1 (20:02):
Really well?

Speaker 2 (20:03):
Yeah, oh that's good.

Speaker 1 (20:04):
So everything's good.

Speaker 3 (20:05):
Now are you still going to go? She can't she
has to work on Thursday. Yeah, so it's not it
wouldn't have had like, it wouldn't have happened.

Speaker 1 (20:13):
Because I sucked it up.

Speaker 3 (20:15):
Yeah, but we talked and argued, and Vince being there
made it really great because he's such a good mediator
and everything. So everything's fine. Now that fine, everything's you know, human,
now are you?

Speaker 2 (20:26):
But are you going to get her to go or
you think that that window is closed?

Speaker 1 (20:29):
No, no, she'll come.

Speaker 3 (20:30):
She's been offering it for years and I've always been like,
that's fucking condescending. Fuck you you think that like coming
to therapy and so you can tell me what's wrong.

Speaker 1 (20:38):
With you know I've been.

Speaker 2 (20:39):
But does she go to therapy? Oh?

Speaker 3 (20:40):
Yeah, we all go to therapy. Oh okay, everyone in
my family goes to fucking therapy.

Speaker 2 (20:45):
Got it.

Speaker 1 (20:46):
Yeah, so that was a Hana americle.

Speaker 2 (20:49):
Amazing.

Speaker 1 (20:49):
Yeah that you got to do it out of the office.

Speaker 2 (20:52):
Right, Yeah.

Speaker 3 (20:52):
That it's still we still were able to talk about
what happened.

Speaker 1 (20:57):
Her mean text me so.

Speaker 2 (21:00):
Thank you yahweh yes, and the angel Gabriel.

Speaker 3 (21:03):
Uh huh and the first, first and best Audrina.

Speaker 2 (21:07):
That's all thank you. That's all her.

Speaker 3 (21:10):
She had white hair, I believe white. Yeah, it was
in fucking changey coloring like a.

Speaker 2 (21:16):
She was a cuttlefish. Please, oh element.

Speaker 1 (21:24):
What's the little uh?

Speaker 3 (21:26):
Oh my god, Jesus, what's the one? Tiny tim? It's
happy Christmas? Everyone?

Speaker 2 (21:33):
Is that it is that? It no like you. You
just revealed that you've been like a spy, a Russian spy,
deep deep state Russian spy, a scrooge Happy Christmas.

Speaker 3 (21:56):
I said, it was an U miracle, Alvis fucking this
insane side Aman's cat screamed, and then I said, it's
a happy Christmas everyone.

Speaker 2 (22:03):
No, sorry, that just reminded me. My favorite shirt of
the weekend was the woman who was wearing a shirt
that said make Paul Onions proud. I almost lost my mind.
I don't it's wine is wrong with you people, It's
the best, best people. Every is best.

Speaker 1 (22:20):
Who wants to go first?

Speaker 3 (22:22):
I went first at the at the Insane City show.

Speaker 2 (22:29):
It'll never be posted.

Speaker 1 (22:30):
That is one of my favorite shows.

Speaker 3 (22:32):
So sometimes you guys will have, well, like if we
sell out a show really really quickly, our amazing, wonderful
tour agent Joe Schwartz will be like, you guys at
a late show, and we'll be like, okay, and then
we're like, why did we do that?

Speaker 1 (22:47):
It's it's really hard to do.

Speaker 3 (22:49):
It's pretty hard the second show, and so we get
on there and we're fucking hopped up on diet coke
and fucking.

Speaker 2 (22:54):
Coffee and cocaine.

Speaker 3 (22:57):
Like many TwixT bars, and we go up and it's
fucking bananas.

Speaker 2 (23:02):
And this one was especially bananas.

Speaker 1 (23:04):
I you say that yours was great, you saved it.

Speaker 2 (23:10):
Here's the thing, it just is like such a roll
of the dice. We're doing a thing that you probably
should not do for a live show, which is we
don't know what the other person's going to talk about,
which makes it really fun. It is the best part.
But then like on that one with mine, I felt
like I was in a car sliding on ice, like
skidding into a brick wall.

Speaker 1 (23:30):
I went first last time, so I'll go first.

Speaker 2 (23:34):
Okay, Now this story. Guy Brandham told me to do
this a while ago when we were doing shows in Toronto,
but I said no. It's when he told me about it.
I read it up a little bit and then I
was like, Oh, it's too singular, it's too like, doesn't
have enough I don't know, bells and whistles or whatever.

(23:55):
Body and then body, body, Yeah. But then I read
it and that's not the case, and I knew it
was a good story because for me, it this story
causes me more and more and more anxiety as I
read it. So I'll tell you about this is. This

(24:19):
is the story of Jennifer Pan Oh you.

Speaker 1 (24:24):
Know this one, yes, okay, and I love it.

Speaker 2 (24:27):
So I realized in reading these articles, what I found
was that the real mother like the source of this story,
that exactly the original yeast doe of this story was
from an article written by a woman named Karen k Hoe,
a name I'll remember for the rest of my life,

(24:49):
for I guess a magazine called Toronto Life. Because this
girl knew Jennifer Pan I grew up with her, so
was kind of giving a a different like a different
view of how of the whole thing.

Speaker 3 (25:04):
I feel like it's always different when the person who's
writing the story knows what the town was like where
they're from, you know what I mean, Like because it
can be like any fucking small town or suburb or
whatever when you know what it's like, Yeah, and what
the person what the high school is like, and what
the curriculum and what the person's expectations are.

Speaker 2 (25:22):
Yeah, the context because context, and this one, yes, and
like it's the family context, especially in this story, because
this is one of those stories about what they call
the dragon parents. So there's tiger moms are one thing,
but then there's another term that they were using in
all these articles, and it was dragging dragon parents or dragonfather.

(25:43):
So I think it's the ones that are way more intense.
It's not just like it's it's the kind that are
insanely restrictive and insanely strict and tough with really high expectations,
where there's kind of you have no choice, there's failure
is not an option, right, Okay. So on November eighth,
twenty ten, at around nine thirty pm, Jennifer Pan locked

(26:05):
the front door of her family's home, in Markham, Ontario,
which was a suburb outside of Toronto, and went to bed.
Shortly afterwards, three men entered her home with guns. They
ransacked the home. It was a home invasion looking for money.
They grabbed Jennifer's parents. Han is her father and Bick

(26:32):
is her mother. They took them down into the basement.
Basically they had a TV room down in their basement.
Brought them down in the basement. They were demanding money.
They looked all through the master bedroom. They tore up
the whole master bedroom to find money. They kept demanding money.
We're being invaded. Han, Jennifer's father, told them that he

(26:57):
had money in his wallet. He was trying to think
of other places that he could give them money from.
And they end up shooting Han in the shoulder and
then in the right eye, and then as Vic Jennifer's
mother is screaming, they shoot her three times and kill her.
Han survives getting shot in the eye.

Speaker 1 (27:19):
Dad, Yes, how does that happen?

Speaker 2 (27:21):
I don't know. It broke his orbital bone the bullet
and it grazed the the vein that goes down your throat.
I guess it's is it your jugular or one of
those you know, the the eye vein is big tear duct.
It basically went through his eye, but then, like I think,

(27:45):
out the side and he survived us upstairs, Jennifer. They
tied Jennifer to the staircase staircase.

Speaker 1 (27:56):
Banisters.

Speaker 2 (27:57):
Thank you to the baning you.

Speaker 1 (27:59):
Stick your head through and gets stuck.

Speaker 2 (28:01):
How old is she again?

Speaker 1 (28:02):
Sixteen?

Speaker 2 (28:03):
She no, at the time, she is twenty six. Okay,
oh wow, but she looks sixteen.

Speaker 1 (28:08):
Okay. She lives at home.

Speaker 2 (28:10):
Yes, she lives at home with her very strict parents.
So they tie her with shoelaces to the banister and
they shoot the parents and then they all leave with
whatever the cash that they've taken. I think it's it
ended up being like through around three thousand dollars or something.
Jennifer gets out of She loosens out of the shoelaces.

(28:33):
She calls nine one one. She's freaking out. The cops arrive.
Han comes out of the basement. He's able to get
up and walk outside. A neighbor's the first one to
find him, and he gets loaded into an ambulance. Jennifer
gets loaded into an ambulance. She has a younger brother
who is half an hour away at college, and they

(28:57):
all get taken. She gets met by crisis workers at
the hospital. They tell her her father's and surgery and
that her mother is dead. She's at the hospital for
a really long time. Eventually they realize that that there's
not even wounds like there there aren't even red marks
on her wrist from those shoelaces, so she is uninjured

(29:19):
and she ends up they take her. Once she's out
of the hospital, they take her back to the police
station and the detectives questioned her and basically just kind
of start asking her questions what happened? Just can you
describe these people? They make her go through it once.
Then they do another technique where they make her and
I also got a lot of this from Case File,

(29:40):
one of our favorite case file.

Speaker 1 (29:41):
That's what that's the episode I listened to.

Speaker 2 (29:43):
Of This's I mean, that guy just does such amazing research.

Speaker 1 (29:47):
It's just so dramatic.

Speaker 2 (29:48):
Yes, yeah, he was also pronouncing the mom's name Bica,
but I only ever saw it written that it was
pronounced Bick, So I'm well, yeah, and he's Australian, Australian.
I don't know what he's doing. He's doing something with
his voice, so anyway, okay. So basically she goes and

(30:09):
the cops are like, tell me the story your way, now,
tell it from above, like just and then see what
you can remember. So like, it's so weird.

Speaker 1 (30:17):
Can you imagine having to do that. Yeah, especially the
traumatic event.

Speaker 2 (30:21):
Yeah, telling the story over and over.

Speaker 3 (30:22):
It's like, as you see the people acting it out,
that's so weird.

Speaker 2 (30:26):
It's so crazy. But then that second way does help
her to remember, and she's able to describe the guys
better and more detail. She remembers them, the names that
they called each other, different things that they talked about with,
the money, whatever, so it's a little bit effective. Then
right before she leaves, the guy says, oh, we need

(30:48):
to check your phone because if these guys mat we
think you know, her mom had just come home from
line dancing class. So they're like, well, maybe somebody followed her.
More like it's she was targeted somehow. So if it
wasn't her, then we want to see if it was you,
if you were being targeted, so we need to know
who you've been talking to. And then in this interview
because on the case file thing that he has all

(31:09):
the interview tapes so it starts with the nine to
one one tape where I was on the freeway did
she listen on the way over? And I grabbed that
phone so fast it was just because she is freaking
out into the phone and of course, you know, screaming.
But then in the police interview tapes, she's really she's crying,
she's really upset. And then at one point he says,

(31:32):
you need to sign this thing so we can look
into your phone, and then she's like so, and all
of a sudden, she has a bunch of questions about
how they're looking into her phone and what that might mean,
and he's basically going, it's fine because if you're not
lying to us, it's just us looking at your phone.
And then if you are lying to us, we're going
to find out like who you've been talking to and
if it's information we need to know. And that's when

(31:53):
like the temperature changes a little bit, because up until
that point, she was the victim. She was, you know,
like the one of two survivors of a terrible home
invasion murder robbery, So that, you know, it changes a
tiny bit there, and then they start looking into her
past and the people that she's been talking to, and

(32:14):
it turns out that Jennifer Pan might not be the
person that she has been presenting herself to be. Okay,
So basically, her father, Han had been a Tiger dad.
We will start at the beginning. They her parents were
both born and raised in Vietnam, and they moved to
Canada's political refugees in nineteen seventy nine, and they got

(32:37):
married in Toronto, and then they lived in Scarborough Neighborhood
for a while, and that's where they had Jennifer in
nineteen eighty seven and then her brother Felix in nineteen
eighty nine. Scarborough Neighborhood apparently was kind of rough at
the time that they lived there. They both Han and
Bick worked at Magna International car parks manufacturer, and they

(33:02):
they worked really hard, so by two thousand and four
they'd saved enough money to buy a large house, the
two card garage in Markham. So Markham was a quiet
suburb north of Toronto, predominantly Asian families and very it's
just kind of like where people went. It was really

(33:22):
just quiet, low key. And now Bick is driving Alexis
Hans driving a Mercedes like they're doing very well. And
they have. It's reported they had two hundred grand in
the bank. So they were totally dedicated to their kids
and getting their kids into college, getting their making their
kids as successful you know Canadians as they can. So

(33:46):
they didn't allow Jennifer. They had. Jennifer was playing piano
from the age of four. She won all these awards.
She had like a room full of awards for how
good she wasn't playing the piano. Then she got into
ice skating when she's a little older, when she's a
little older, and she did it every single day, and
she wanted to go. She was like in training and

(34:08):
she had set her sights on being in the twenty
ten Winter Olympics in Vancouver. Then she tears a ligament
in her knee and basically that dream ends for her.
When she was graduating eighth grade, she thought she was
going to be the valedictorian and she basically found out
she was getting no academic awards and she was not
the valedictorian, and that's like all this sudden she was

(34:31):
just like, I'm the point, I'm not who I'm supposed
to be. And she kind of she had been working
her ass off up to that point. So she wasn't
she didn't make a mark, and she was shocked and
couldn't believe it, and that's totally unacceptable in her family.
Like her family was like, all A's all you do
is like these extracurricular activities we've chosen for you very specifically,

(34:53):
and then you're going to be like, you're going to
get a four point eight gpa essentially, So no, Jesus
has to do the impossible, essentially. It so some nights
in elementary school, she'd come home from ice skating at ten,
then do homework till midnight, and then go to bed

(35:15):
in elementary school. And in elementary school she started cutting
herself because the pressure was so intense to be successful
and all these different things she was doing. So she
was doing little horizontal cuts on her forearms. Yeah. So
then once she went to mary Ward Catholic Secondary School,

(35:38):
ice skating was over for her. She started playing flute
in the school band. But every day after school her
parents were there to pick her up when band practice
was over so she could go home and study. But
her grades, for the way their family considered it, were
failing because she was only getting bees.

Speaker 3 (35:55):
God, I would have paid for a bad back then
with my cella, my shitty cello playing.

Speaker 2 (36:02):
I mean, I don't understand why I got any of
the grades I got because I never tried, and I
would get just a full variety from it, from A
to D. Oh. It was just like, why.

Speaker 1 (36:12):
Try, Yeah, I don't learn that early.

Speaker 2 (36:14):
It's very random. Yeah, why try? Why try? Just have
a good time. So when she got her first bad,
you know, all b's report card freshman year, she took
some old report cards, some scissor, some glue, photocopier, and
she made herself a brand new fake report card worth
the straight a's all a's.

Speaker 1 (36:32):
Yep, that's how you get all a's.

Speaker 2 (36:34):
And in her mind she said, universities don't consider marks
from grade nine, Canadian grade nine and Canadian grade ten.
So she's in her mind it wasn't a big deal.
It didn't matter. And I'm sure she was thinking, I'm
buying myself a little time. Here's these a's, and I'll
work back up to a's and it'll all work out.
She was not allowed to have a boyfriend. She was

(36:56):
not allowed to go to dances, she was not allowed
to go to parties, she was not allowed to spend
night at friends' houses. She was it was all about
school and getting her school work in the spring. All
her hard work and dedication paid off. She graduated from
high school and won early acceptance to Ryerson University in Toronto.

(37:19):
Her parents were happy. They wanted her to go to
the University of Toronto, but Ryerson University was still great
for them. Here's the problem. Jennifer Pan had early acceptance
to Ryerson University, but then that got canceled when she
flunked out of calculus when she was a senior, so

(37:40):
that early acceptance was rescented. Now she's not in any college,
so she starts doing what many people do. You pretend
you're going to college every morning. So this is like, yeah,
now we're into me when I live in Sacramento and
I am flunking out of college, but my parents don't know.
So I'm doing the thing where I go home for

(38:01):
the summer and every day get up and run to
the mailbox like I'm a child, excited for the mail,
trying to get the mail the report card before my parents.

Speaker 1 (38:10):
Do because you kind of see it. No, you're not going.

Speaker 2 (38:13):
Yeah, my report card was like a point eight three
or something like I was only going to theater class.

Speaker 1 (38:20):
I mean, you're literally going.

Speaker 2 (38:23):
It was insane. No, So she's doing the same thing,
but she's kind of doing it in reverse. So she's
saying she's going to school, getting up every morning, taking
the train, and then just chilling out at cafes. She
got a part time job waitressing it at pizza place,
and she was hanging out with her secret high school

(38:45):
boyfriend Daniel Wong. Daniel Wong. So she had been dating
Daniel Wong since they went on a European in high
school bands. They went on a trip to Europe, and
she had only been friends with up up until that point,
and she I think the story was that she had
an asthma attack in a smoke filled bar and like
thought that she was going to die because she couldn't breathe,

(39:05):
and Daniel came to her rest and Daniel came to
her rescue and like talked her down, and then they
became secret love. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (39:17):
I was trying to hold my breath's sake and finish that.
So it was so amazing, but I couldn't parncy. Oh
my god, Daniel.

Speaker 2 (39:25):
They were secret lovers. So that had been going on. Also,
she had she'd had a bunch of plates spinning at
once Jennifer Pan so sometimes she would go over to
his house. She finally convinced her parents that she needed
to move in with her friend Topaz, who lived close
to college and had an amazing name and had the
best name. Was she a stripper? We'll never know, it

(39:48):
doesn't matter. That's what I'm picturing in my head. Topaz
in the apartment had the poll to practice on.

Speaker 1 (39:54):
I mean, that's hard. Have you seen this is like
some crazy ab work.

Speaker 2 (39:58):
Dude, that's like incredible dedication, strength, stamina, stamina. I just
fall asleep as I'm talking, so okay, So basically that
becomes part of it. She's also telling her father that
her grades are so good, she's getting like three thousand
dollars tuition scholarships. So it's just lies upon lies online.

(40:24):
So because it's.

Speaker 3 (40:24):
Better than having to tell your parents that you're just
like a normal human being, right, which made me so sad.

Speaker 1 (40:29):
It's just just to be like I'm just average. Yeah,
we want it. Just to enjoy my life as a
normal human is not acceptable.

Speaker 2 (40:37):
Right, And there is apparently there's a couple times in
this article that bick her mom would be like, let
her be herself or she's okay as she is, and
tried to like take the heat off a little bit,
but she was also Jennifer's the oldest. Yeah, and there's
just so you know, there was so much pressure. It's
that it's it's the same kind of pressure in like

(41:00):
I will I can equate it in the way of
like in our family, Irish immigrants, like they call them
lace lace curtain Irish where they make sure everything looks
really good because they think everybody thinks they're a scomebag.
So they're like, here's our beautiful lace. Look how well
we're doing. Everything's ironed and everyone we have nine kids,
but everyone's clothes are perfectly ironed, because well, it's a thing.

Speaker 3 (41:22):
Of like immigrant parents, where it's like I didn't fucking
I didn't go through what I went through for you
to work in an office like a boring office, or
in a pizza place, or as a you know, even
as an exotic dancer, like which is all acceptable fucking job.

Speaker 2 (41:37):
It's what everybody does. That's not I.

Speaker 3 (41:39):
Will not accept it. I didn't come here from Vietnam
to fucking raise a child, to not be a superstar.

Speaker 2 (41:47):
You have to have like your own law firm. You
have to Yeah, you have to do everything perfectly and
never trip once, which is not only impossible, yeah, but
also that's not how you get good at things.

Speaker 1 (41:57):
Thank god.

Speaker 3 (41:58):
My parents had no expectations whatsoever, aside from I mean
aside from nothing.

Speaker 2 (42:04):
My parents, my dad used to love to tell the
story that they used to bring home their report cards
to my grandpa, who they said, des ands and d's
and f's meant doing fine, and he didn't. He dropped
out of school when he was a kid. He was
like doing good, everybody Jesus correct. And they all became
civil servants and plumbers and things that you know, and

(42:26):
that back then you could make money by doing that.
It's not like that anymore anyway. I'm sorry, going no, no, no, no,
but there it's just funny how there there there are
these pressures in some way. It's like in some cultures
it's academic pressure. In some cultures it's like you have
to get married and have a family immediately. Pressure. It
just depends.

Speaker 1 (42:46):
But being used to be religious, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (42:49):
Stay in the click totally, stay in the fam totally. Okay,
So Jennifer is she's under the gun. And now she's
twenty two years old, and she has been lying to
her parents consistently since like eighth grade essentially, and being
having like a double life, which is kind of amazing.
She's but she's never gone to a party, she's never

(43:11):
gone to a club, she's never gotten drunk, and her
one relationship is her secret relationship with Daniel Wong. So basically,
she then tells them that she it was her father's
dream for her to go to pharmacology school and become
a pharmacist. So she's like, guess what, everybody I got accepted,

(43:32):
Like she just makes a thing up. Yeah, she she lies.
She tells them that she got in. They're thrilled she hadn't.
But she starts buying used books and bringing home like
pharmacology books and when she would leave for school every day.
It's stressing you out.

Speaker 4 (43:50):
In Stephen, No, it just reminds me of the woman
who did that for Stamford and pretend to be in
Stanford for like two years, same thing.

Speaker 2 (44:00):
Because her family thought she had So she lived in
like Polowen, she.

Speaker 4 (44:04):
Would and she would like sleep in like if a door,
like if a dorm, like a roommate dropped out, she'd
be like, oh, I'm the new roommate, and she would
sleep in people's dorms and stuff, pretending that she was
a student, faking her grades, all the same stuff.

Speaker 2 (44:19):
Oh my god. Yeah, they kind of should get an
honorary doctorate for getting away with it, for like faking
it for some time.

Speaker 1 (44:26):
What we're trying to be successful. You're saying you have
so much further to fall.

Speaker 2 (44:30):
Yes, And also it's take that take that initial hit
of like I fucked up. Let the chips fall. They
can only yell for so long.

Speaker 3 (44:38):
Yeah, and take the and take the initiative to lie
and use that towards something better, you.

Speaker 1 (44:46):
Know what I mean.

Speaker 3 (44:47):
Like you're a really good liar, Like go get a
job somewhere cool and build yourself up to management.

Speaker 2 (44:53):
Take that lie your way to manage it.

Speaker 1 (44:56):
But just like you clearly are not stupid if you're
able to trick all these people for two years, Get
into sales, Get into the fucking sell houses, sell houses, sell.

Speaker 2 (45:07):
Mobile phones on Hollywood Boulevard, right out on the sidewalk right.
Pharmaceuticals start right around the corner in the alley.

Speaker 1 (45:13):
Oh my dad sold fucking gain soon. I was a
fucking hallmart.

Speaker 2 (45:17):
Hell, yes do it. Those things can cut a coke.

Speaker 3 (45:20):
Can and he showed you how at a Walmart my day, Marty,
go ahead.

Speaker 2 (45:24):
And so she instead goes for it in a major way.
She majors in line and tells her that she's going
to pharmacology school, which I just can't. It's almost like
she's not even lying and going like, I you know what,
I got a job in California, I'll see you later
or anything. She's not busting out. She's just like continuing
to try to make it work.

Speaker 1 (45:44):
Like I still have to live here, yeah.

Speaker 2 (45:46):
And I have to make these people happy, and I
don't know how, so I'm just going to do it
the way they demand. So she's buying fake textbooks, and
not fake textbooks, use textbooks like oh the old pharmacology, right,
And then she's going to the library and watching video
and reading books on it and taking notes so that
when she goes home she has dreams of notes, so
it looks like she's really doing work.

Speaker 1 (46:06):
She could have actually been going to school this whole
time doing that.

Speaker 2 (46:10):
Probably if she was to be students, she could have.
That was rude. So so then she asked. She asked
if she can stay at Topaz's house during the week
because it's a way better commute. Her mom's like super
empathetic and like, let's let her, it'll be so much better. Well, she's,
of course not staying at Topaz's house. She's staying at

(46:31):
Daniel Wong's house. Danny his parents. She was lying to
his parents and saying it was okay with her parents
that she was staying at their house. And then so
basically there was no one she wasn't lying to except
Daniel Wall. So basically, when it was theoretically time for

(46:53):
her to graduate from the University of Toronto pharmacology program,
they Daniel and helped her find some online to create
a fake transcript with all a's in it. And then
she told her parents when it was the graduation ceremony
that it was an extra large class and all the

(47:14):
there weren't enough seats. All the students only got one ticket,
and she'd already given it to a friend because she
didn't think one parent would want to go without the
other parent. Yeah, I think that's when it might have
started to stink a little bit to the parents. But
then when Jennifer told them that she was volunteering at
Toronto's prestigious hospital for sick children. They noticed that she

(47:36):
didn't have any ID, no uniform, there was nothing to
prove that she officially worked there. So one day Han
they drop her off or they insist upon driving her
to work, and so then she gets out of car
and runs into the hospital and then Han tells Bick
go in after her and follow her in. So she
ends up going and running and like hiding for hours

(47:59):
in the emergency room or in the in the waiting
room and basically comes back out and like doesn't find her,
and basically she waits them out until they leave. And
then early the next morning they called Topaz to say, hey,
we need to talk to Jennifer, and Topaz who just

(48:21):
wakes up.

Speaker 1 (48:21):
As like she's not here, Yeah, isn't it.

Speaker 2 (48:24):
It doesn't know what's going on. And basically they find
out that Jennifer was at Daniel's house, and the whole
lie comes down, or the whole house of lies, the
whole house of cards starring Kevin Spacey comes down.

Speaker 1 (48:37):
It all becomes a house of cards.

Speaker 2 (48:40):
So basically she has to confess she never volunteered at
the hospital. For sick children. She didn't she wasn't in
the pharmacology program, and that she had been saying at
Daniel's house. She actually didn't mention that she'd never graduated
from high school and that her time at Irison University

(49:01):
was faked. She didn't admit to any of that. She
only she got out what she could. Of course, Han
lost his fucking shit. The dad went crazy. Bick had
to convince him to let her remain in the house,
and they basically said, it's him, it's Daniel wongher, it's us,
and if you go with him, you can never come

(49:22):
back to this house again. So then she basically had
to break up with Daniel Wong because she didn't know
where to go or what to do. So and they
take away her cell phone and her laptop for two weeks,
and then after that they tell her we're going to
check your messages anytime. We want to make sure you're
not interacting with him. She's an adult now, she's like

(49:42):
twenty five. Oh my god. So she's yeah, it's it's
not U. It's crazy. So she finishes up just that,
she takes a calculus class, finish gets her high school
like ged or whatever. She so basically her parents encourage

(50:02):
her to apply for college for real. She makes money
as being a piano teacher part time and basically she
can't go anywhere except for university or piano lessons. So
she's twenty four. I said that. So when she breaks
up with Daniel this time, says, I can't see you

(50:24):
anymore because I'll get kicked out forever. He's like, I
find like I can't take it anymore anyway, he starts
dating somebody else and they fall in love. Oh no,
And of course Jennifer doesn't handle it well. She falls
into a deep depression. She attempts suicide, and at one
point she tells Daniel that some men had home invaded

(50:45):
their house and had gang raped her. And then she
tells him that his new girlfriend mailed a bullet to
her as a warning to stay away. That she basically
insinuated that the new girlfriend this was all her plan, yeah,
to attack Jennifer. So somehow that story works okay, because

(51:08):
they end up getting back together.

Speaker 1 (51:10):
Well, she a really good liar at this point.

Speaker 2 (51:12):
I think she must be in the Like that nine
one one call is so believable. I would have never
doubted her and I'm sure in a way she was
really I mean her parents were just attacked, right, So
I don't think she's a completely cold like sociopath or psychopath.

Speaker 1 (51:29):
But but she's been lying for fucking fifteen years. She
has to be good at it and used to it,
and it's a normal. It's not keeping her up at night,
Yeah it's not.

Speaker 3 (51:40):
And it's like it's like a normal way to live
your life is to start by trying to lie about something.

Speaker 2 (51:47):
Yeah, that like if you're if you're not getting what
you want, get that manipulation going, because you can't ever
get anything.

Speaker 1 (51:53):
Kind of the.

Speaker 3 (51:54):
Direct default is to tell some tell a person what
they want to hear.

Speaker 2 (51:58):
Yes or like, or really play a huge card so
that people go like holy shit, stop everything. Why yeah exactly.
So basically Daniel, and Daniel himself is a bit of
a he's he has been kicked out of schools. He
he's a little you know, he got caught dealing pot

(52:19):
when he went to that Catholic school that they went
to together. He's a little you know, living on the
edge a little bit himself. So when they get back together,
basically together, they figure out that her parents' life insurance
policies would pay out half a million dollars and that
she is the beneficiary. And so Daniel starts helping her

(52:40):
make a plan to have them killed. Fuck yes, So
he says that he knows a guy named Lenford Crawford,
the worst name of all time, a borderline V c
Andrews name, Lenford Crawford. Daniel calls him homeboy. They start
setting up a thing where like she can, she has

(53:00):
a separate SIM card and iPhone so she can talk
to him and make this plan. Nobody finds out. And
basically the plan is when you're done, like watching TV
for the night, unlock the front door. So she actually
left the front door unlock. Then she went upstairs to
her room. She flicked the lights in the study to
give them the signal that it was time. Her mom

(53:22):
had come home from line dancing, was watching TV, her
dad was watching the news in a different room, and
basically these men came in and the men that home
invaded and basically attempted to kill her father and killed
her mother. It was all her doing and completely her setup.

(53:46):
Oh my god. Yeah, So, which you know, it felt
like we were getting to that. It's not the biggest
revealed night, but it's so sad, it's so fucking crazy
and over the top. And then basically the third time
they bring her, so the cops the first time they
think they're just getting the story from her the first interview.
The second interview they're kind of like, let's talk about

(54:06):
this again, and got to detailing app almost yeah, and
it's always, you know, it's like the family is what's
looked at first. Always. Thus the dad was supposed to die? Yeah, right, yes,
so the dad was.

Speaker 1 (54:17):
Supposed to die. Was the mom supposed to die?

Speaker 2 (54:19):
Yes? They both were. Okay, yeah, okay. So essentially the
third time they they interrogate her and they use something
I think it was called I didn't I didn't write here,
but basically a guy named Jeremy Grimaldi is a journalist.
In twenty sixteen, he published a true crime book about

(54:40):
Jennifer called A Daughter's Deadly Deception The Jennifer Pants Story,
and in that he talks about they used this interrogation
technique that might not have been above board, where they
basically trick you into trusting them, and then then like
it's almost like one guy is good cop and bad cop.
Oh waterboard and then they just waterboard you. Wait.

Speaker 3 (55:01):
So the guy is like, you trust me, you trust me,
you trust me. Now I'm angry, and you need to
make me not angry anymore because I'm your friend.

Speaker 2 (55:08):
Yes, Like they lull her into a sense of kind
of like she's being talked to, like, yes, you're a
victim too, and I bet it was really hard. Your
dad was really mean and strict and whatever, and then
just boom and it's like that kind of shock and
aw thing. I didn't read the whole thing of but
you can read this book where it talks all about
that how that interview might not have been totally fair. Oops.

(55:30):
But at the end of the day, she is the
person who hired those people, and essentially, at the trial,
her own father took the stand and told the story
of what happened. That was March nineteenth, twenty fourteen. He
basically had to get up on the stand and tell

(55:51):
everybody how these men came in and he survived. When
he woke up after getting shot into the eye, he
woke up to his dead wife laying there next to him,
and then like got out of the house thinking that
everyone had been killed.

Speaker 1 (56:04):
Yeah, like, where is my daughter? Is she okay? Yeah,
worried about her too, probably of.

Speaker 2 (56:08):
Course, and then slowly finds out that she's the one
behind it. Horrible. So after ten months of this trial,
Jennifer Pan, Daniel Wong, homeboy, homeboy, Lenford Crawford, and uh,
this guy's name was David milvaganam man. There's a bunch

(56:31):
of mil vgana, ma'am mil veganaman. They all got uh.
They were all convicted for murder and attempted murder and
each received a life sentence with no chance of parol
for twenty five years. And then the third guy, Eric Carty,
who is the one that tied her to the banister,
He's tried separately. So there's yeah. So basically read Karen

(56:57):
Kahoe's article in Toronto Life magazine, one of her pans, Revenge,
the inside story of a golden child, the killers she
hired and the parents she wanted dead. That's the article
you're gonna want to really get into because there are
pieces of this article and every other article like, yeah,
that's what everyone's basing it on. Karen.

Speaker 1 (57:16):
You'll never understand unless you have been raised in a
family like that.

Speaker 2 (57:21):
Yeah, but there's crazy, it's like so strict, but then
there's people that have had terrible parents. They don't have
their parents killed. It's just that weird turn of like, yeah,
it just stresses me out so bad. It's like I've
done that exact thing where you're like, Okay, that fucked up.
Now I'm going to make up a new thing that's
going to get fucked up, and I'm gonna do that
dumb thing. And like the more complicated you make it,

(57:44):
the more the worse you're making it for yourself.

Speaker 1 (57:47):
Yeah, for sure, that's a good one, dude.

Speaker 2 (57:49):
It's crazy.

Speaker 1 (57:51):
Thanks, That's that is bananas. Yeah, Vince had a friend.

Speaker 3 (57:57):
She was a comedian from Michigan, and they went to
New York and her name was Juwan and she came
from that kind of family where she had been lying
to her family. They all thought she was going to
school to be a dentist and she was actually a
comedian and didn't tell any of them, and then out
of nowhere, she fucking jumped off the Brooklyn Bridge.

Speaker 1 (58:19):
Yeah, and killed herself.

Speaker 2 (58:20):
I remember hearing about that.

Speaker 3 (58:21):
It's just so sad, like she just couldn't tell them
that she was doing what she actually wanted to do.

Speaker 1 (58:26):
In life.

Speaker 2 (58:27):
Yeah, it's horrible.

Speaker 1 (58:28):
It's just like such a sad thing to me. I
can't imagine, and.

Speaker 2 (58:32):
I bet so sad for the family. Yeah. I think
they're applying pressure and just the right way to or
or whatever. They're doing what they know right, and I'm
sure never in a million years is that the result
they're looking for.

Speaker 3 (58:45):
They'd rather have their daughter as a comedian that you know,
and not what they wanted her to be than what
they wanted her to be and so alive right of course,
always made me so sad, even though I didn't know her.

Speaker 2 (58:57):
It's so tragic. Yeah, I remember a lot of I
mean a lot of people I know knew her, and
yeah I was. They're really upset about it.

Speaker 3 (59:04):
Yeah all right, Well, okay, here's my turn.

Speaker 2 (59:11):
This.

Speaker 3 (59:12):
This is a timely story because it's a cold case
that finally, hopefully this is the end came last week.

Speaker 2 (59:20):
Uh huh.

Speaker 3 (59:21):
But this is a story that I've been interested in.
It's a forty one of the forty eight hours. You know,
we've all watched it. It's really interesting. Texas Monthly. I
got a lot of this information from the Texas Monthly,
which we love. Texas Monthly the best article called Unholy
Act by Pamela.

Speaker 2 (59:37):
Colloff co l l O f F.

Speaker 1 (59:40):
This is the story of fucking priest John Fight. Oh
murder of Irene Garza.

Speaker 2 (59:51):
Oh I don't know this, oh honey, Oh shit, fucking
buckle the fuck up. Buckle down, baby, settle in, buckle up.
Hit your on the coffee table, the coffee tables. Kick
the coffee table like you have a crush on it.

Speaker 1 (01:00:08):
Okay, here we go, okay.

Speaker 3 (01:00:09):
So Irene Garza is born in nineteen thirty four. She's
this dark haired Hispanic beauty from McAllen, Texas. It's an
agricultural agricultural nope area, agricultural agricultural.

Speaker 1 (01:00:29):
Area south of Texas.

Speaker 3 (01:00:30):
In the Rio Grande Valley, five miles from the US
Mexico border. In high school, Irene had been crowned Miss All.

Speaker 2 (01:00:37):
South Texas Sweetheart.

Speaker 3 (01:00:39):
And McAllen High School, where you know, everyone's fucking white.
Back then, she had been the first Hispanic twirler and
head drum Majorrette Wow.

Speaker 1 (01:00:49):
So she was like fucking busting down borders. She's this
beautiful beauty queen, but she's Hispanic. So it's you know,
sense of pride that it's you know she's she's sting
down borders.

Speaker 2 (01:01:02):
Yes she's not. I mean Texas, that's like bit blonde,
big teeth, blue wise, that's like usually what you're going
to get out of a Texas beauty queen.

Speaker 1 (01:01:13):
Right, and she is, you know, she's not that.

Speaker 3 (01:01:16):
And she's the first in her family to graduate from college,
which is a super big deal, huge accomplishment. So, at
twenty five years old, she worked as a teacher for
disadvantaged children, which she took a great pride in. Some
of her students were so poor and came from the
neighborhood where she had come from and had been able
to get out of that. They came to school barefoot,

(01:01:38):
and Irene spent her first paycheck on buying those children
clothes and books.

Speaker 2 (01:01:43):
Yeah, so it happens to this very day, right, even
worse exactly.

Speaker 3 (01:01:48):
So she's this really big hearted, kind person. She is gorgeous,
which isn't a reason why she shouldn't be a victim,
but there's just this warmth coming from her. And you
know she had a huge future or that.

Speaker 1 (01:02:01):
That she earned.

Speaker 3 (01:02:03):
Yeah what I'm saying, yeah, listen, look, look and listen.
Stop it at the center.

Speaker 1 (01:02:08):
Of her life, though, is her devout Catholic faith. That's
like her fucking thing.

Speaker 3 (01:02:15):
On April sixteenth, nineteen sixty, the day before fucking Easter Sunday. Oh, okay, Saturday,
Easter Saturday called a thing.

Speaker 2 (01:02:25):
It's like chill out Saturday. It doesn't sound like dig
it is palm. I don't know, chill the fuck out
Saturday for Easter. Well, go ahead, Well, good Friday, Good Friday.
Good Friday. Is when he went up on that cross. Okay,
it might be the ascension. I don't know. He chilled

(01:02:47):
out on Saturday. He got rolled on up and then
that tomb. Yeah, and then and then he was resen
on Sunday.

Speaker 1 (01:02:53):
Yeah, but Saturday he just hung out.

Speaker 2 (01:02:55):
Well, Saturday was all up in that tomb.

Speaker 1 (01:02:57):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:02:57):
People thinking he's dead, it's over.

Speaker 1 (01:02:59):
And I was like, you know what, I'm gonna hit. Okay,
I'm not gonna get sack.

Speaker 2 (01:03:02):
Religious here we already. Yeah. It's real mad at me.
It's so sad because I've had this shit drummed into
my head. But then of course, well it would be impressive.
I can't pull it out.

Speaker 1 (01:03:11):
But here's the thing, and today's the first time of Hanakah.

Speaker 3 (01:03:14):
We rebelled a against it because we hated it so
much so everyone was drumed in her head. We're like,
fuck you, Oh I'm not remembering this. Yeah, and now
we just don't know things now, just the guilt remains, the.

Speaker 1 (01:03:25):
Guilt and the uh ignorance and the really good songs.

Speaker 2 (01:03:30):
Oh yeah, I got a bunch of those pieces flowing
like a river. Anytime you want me to sing it too,
I will.

Speaker 3 (01:03:35):
Okay, okay, but Rea, let's fucking do this may my prayer, okay, okay.
So on April sixteenth, fucking lazy Saturday.

Speaker 2 (01:03:46):
Nineteen sixty, Irene borrows.

Speaker 1 (01:03:50):
She's twenty five.

Speaker 3 (01:03:51):
She borrows her family car to drive to their church,
Sacred Heart Church, where she plans to go to confession.

Speaker 1 (01:03:59):
She leaves around six start of that evening.

Speaker 3 (01:04:00):
She's like, mom will be back, and a bunch of
witnesses see her get to church. Everyone's in line for confession.
She gets in line as well, but no one sees
her leave that church that day. She never came home
that night, and the next morning, Easter Sunday. That's right,
as you know, he is truly risen. He rises and
her car is still parked down the street from Sacred heart.

(01:04:24):
The first clue comes two days later when one of
Irene's high heeled shoes is spotted by the side of
the road, and three hundred yards from there was her purse.
It looks as if someone had like thrown it out
the window of a passing car. There's no fingerprints on it.

Speaker 2 (01:04:38):
It's crazy.

Speaker 3 (01:04:39):
Huge search ensues, including they dragged irrigation canals. They go
house to house through the town. Border patrol planes go
fucking circling. Sixty five National guardsmans are called out to
assist what became at the time the most extensive investigation
in valley history.

Speaker 2 (01:04:57):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (01:04:58):
But it's not till four days later after she disappeared,
that Irene's body is found floating in a nearby irrigation canal.
She's fully dressed except for her shoes and underwear are missing.
The right side of her face is badly bruised. She
had two black eyes, and the autopsy reveals that she
had been beaten with a hard object and suffocated. The

(01:05:22):
state of decomposition suggests that she'd been dead for fewer
than four days, So maybe she had been kept somewhere
for a day or so and she had been raped
well and conscious. Yeah, the local newspapers go fucking nuts
with rumors and speculation. Everyone is like being fucking targeted

(01:05:43):
or fingered, including this prominent local citizen.

Speaker 2 (01:05:47):
Who had died of a heart attack days after.

Speaker 3 (01:05:49):
She'd disappeared, you know, or that had been transient, or
someone had crush on her because she was so beautiful,
but she was also you know, not she was dating
but not you know, she was Catholic, you know what
I mean. Sure, detectives question more than five hundred people
in the weeks following the murder, but behind the scenes, detectives,

(01:06:09):
they don't talk about this in public, and the newspapers
don't really talk about this. They are focusing on a
twenty seven year old priest named John Fight what yeah,
a priest Okay Fight It's fit had recently finished his
seminary training in San Antonio and his name kept turning
up in their investigation. So he had recently come into town.

(01:06:32):
He was a bright and well he was bright and
well mannered. He had dark hair and hornbordn glasses. He
looked like he'd be in Weezer, you know what I'm saying. Yes,
he struck parishioners though, as aloof and a bit of
a loner and seemed ambivalent about his vocation. When he
was asked why he had joined the priesthood, he said,

(01:06:53):
I just want to give it a try. I'm sorry,
but if God isn't in that sentence, or Jesus or
some fuckings, you can't say that out loud.

Speaker 2 (01:07:06):
Was he new to Catholicism, go, you got to.

Speaker 3 (01:07:09):
Like be in it to women, Like, if anyone asks
either of us why we wanted to do a true
crime podcast, it would be like a passionate plea of
how interested in fucking.

Speaker 2 (01:07:16):
Crime we are? That's right?

Speaker 3 (01:07:17):
And we're not and talking talking to God, right, mostly talking.

Speaker 2 (01:07:22):
But also like to not. It's almost that very glib,
flippant thing of like it's here's my funny joke, and like, really,
it's none of your business, right, is what he's saying, right,
which you're not like to say.

Speaker 3 (01:07:35):
Anyone who's asking you is like being earnest and being like,
tell me, I want to connect to you.

Speaker 2 (01:07:41):
You're a priest. I'm looking for some fucking guidance and
some wisdom. Can I get a fucking amen? Please? There
you go.

Speaker 3 (01:07:50):
On the night of Irene's disappearance, father of Fight had
heard confessions and taken part in a midnight mass. He'd
also admitted to his superiors he had met privately with
Irene in the church rectory. And I wrote in parentheses
the house because I didn't know what a rectory was.
I thought it was in office, the church's office. I
thought it was you know where he went and wrote

(01:08:13):
out his I.

Speaker 1 (01:08:14):
Thought it was an office. Well, it's a house, right,
I didn't know that.

Speaker 2 (01:08:18):
It's the priest house, that's but it's connected to the church,
so it kind of is like an office. Do all the.

Speaker 1 (01:08:22):
Priests live there or just the one, like head priest.

Speaker 2 (01:08:24):
It's it's kind of like case by case. Like in
my hometown, Saint Vincent's, they live at the rectory and
but you can also go there. Like at my mom's funeral,
we went to talk to the priest in the rectory
like in a downstairs office.

Speaker 3 (01:08:41):
Doesn't rectory sound like it should be like a side
room office?

Speaker 2 (01:08:44):
What sounds like factory. It's where they're just churning out Jesus'
statues all day and night. But I mean, I think
it's like it's basically, you know, the church hall is
where people like have their you know, Sunday coffee clatches
or whatever. The rectory where you'd go and you're like,
we need to plan a funeral, we need to plan
a wedding.

Speaker 1 (01:09:04):
This is some serious shit happening here.

Speaker 2 (01:09:06):
This is the business, and then upstairs the priests live,
and then it's the busy bodies next door making sucond.
I was gonna say couggle, but they don't know Coogl. No,
they actually they ban Coogle long ago. All right, I
get it.

Speaker 3 (01:09:20):
So the rectory is okay, and that was viewed by
other priests as really inappropriate to take anyone, especially a
fucking hot twenty five year old lovely woman.

Speaker 2 (01:09:30):
All right, So well yeah, because unless she has called,
like if it was a parish business, she would have
called like the lady, the lady that runs the office,
and then like I need to make it an appoint
But this was for confession specifically. Oh yeah, no, you
do that in the confession booth.

Speaker 1 (01:09:46):
There's a there's a booth that is titled for the
thing she was doing.

Speaker 2 (01:09:50):
They had people build it right into the church so
people specifically you can sit there and pray and then
look at people getting confession. Uh huh. That's the whole
idea of confession.

Speaker 1 (01:10:00):
Well, he took her to the rectory gross pass. Okay, yeah,
it's problematic. Yes, it is also several churchgoers who stood
in his confession line which had fuck installed out because
he fucking picked her out and took her.

Speaker 2 (01:10:14):
To the rectory.

Speaker 3 (01:10:15):
As a doc oh that night told detectives that he
seemed to have been absent from the sanctuary for long
periods of time, and another priest's father, John O'Brien, reported
seeing scratches on his hands when they drank coffee together
at midnight mass. Then detectives learned that on March twenty third,

(01:10:36):
so that's three weeks before Irene Irene disappeared and her
body was found, that a woman had been attacked at
a Catholic church twelve miles from.

Speaker 1 (01:10:45):
That church, the one where Irene went to.

Speaker 3 (01:10:48):
Twelve miles away, twenty year old college student Maria America
Guerrera had visited Sacred Heart Church in Edinburgh and noticed
a young man with dark hair and hornroom glasses weez
are sitting alone in one of the back pews, and
in her mind she was like that. I think she
had an immediate reaction to him. He made me nervous,

(01:11:08):
but she was like, calm down, Maria. You're in the church.
You're in the fucking house of God. Nothing can go wrong, right,
you know. She let her guard down, Yeah, which is
totally understandable in a church.

Speaker 1 (01:11:17):
Of course, in a church.

Speaker 2 (01:11:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:11:19):
And when she went to the altar and knelt at
the communion rail, a man grabbed her from behind and
tried to put a rag over her mouth.

Speaker 2 (01:11:27):
Holy shit.

Speaker 3 (01:11:28):
Yeah, she fucking thought the shit out of him. And
when he put his hand back over her mouth to
silence her because she was screaming, she bit the shit
out of his fingers until he drew blood. She drew blood, Yes,
that's you know what I'm saying. She ran out the
side door of the church. She escaped, and in her
sworn statement, she said that she thought her attacker was
a priest. That was the first feeling she got. Wow,

(01:11:50):
which was very controversial.

Speaker 1 (01:11:51):
Yeah, you know what I'm saying, I bet because this
is the fifties or the sixties. This is like, this
is nineteen sixties, so we're technically still in the fifties.
So I wrote about this that this is this is
a long time before the sexual allegations against priests started
to come out and people believed. Yes, this wasn't until
the nineties that these allegations came out against priests sexually
amausting children, and it wasn't even until way later that

(01:12:13):
people believed them.

Speaker 2 (01:12:14):
Well. And of course horrible document I mean, oh, amazing documentary.

Speaker 1 (01:12:19):
I wrote this down. There is it the It's deliver
Us from Evil.

Speaker 2 (01:12:25):
And there's a guy in it that talks about when
he got molested by a priest, being driven into police
the priest's car because they he didn't have a dad,
and so he's like, I'll take him out to ice
cream or whatever, gets molested in the priest car. The
priest drops him off, he walks into the house says
to the mom, what just happened. The mother slaps him
across the face and says, how dare you ever say that?

(01:12:46):
And then the priest continues visiting their house for years
to come. It's the most upsetting. It's just children against adults,
and there's no everyone's like, no fucking way.

Speaker 3 (01:12:57):
It's not even children against adults. It's children against God's
chosen people. And these I highly religious people, which I
don't completely understand, which is why I was excited to
talk to you about this because you were raised Catholic.
They're infallible. They are infallible, and you talking badly against
a priest is talking badly against Jesus fucking Christ.

Speaker 2 (01:13:20):
That's right, right' It's like pre Vatican two shit, where
it's like it's old like when the popes used to
control everybody and they were the richest people and they
fuck anything they wanted and it was just all about
power and money and basically these Yeah, this is why
people who were pedophiles went into the priest and they

(01:13:43):
went in with carte blanche.

Speaker 3 (01:13:44):
And we're not saying that Catholicism is bad religion, that
priests are bad people, that any you know, I'm not
talking shit on any of this. It's just this reality
of a really bad period that happened that we need
to acknowledge.

Speaker 2 (01:13:58):
Well, yeah, and I mean I think at this point
it's so been acknowledged. Most of the people that I
know that are good Catholics and that are faith based, like,
they don't they still believe in they have a relationship
with God and spirituality. But most of the adults that
I know, because of the stuff that's happened in the
Catholic Church are incredible. And I don't just mean like
people my age, I mean like people my parents' age

(01:14:20):
that are just so it's like you can't look at
that power structure and go this should continue. This is
this is going great. They've handled stuff great and it
should continue. There's there are very few people that feel
that way because it's just so what a horrible thing.

Speaker 1 (01:14:37):
But you can't give people absolute power like that.

Speaker 2 (01:14:40):
No, no, not at all, especially that access, that access
to families. But I have to say this too, like
there are priests in my in Saint Vincence that are
some of the best people I've ever met, absolutely, and
it's just that kind of like it's almost like the
bad ones steal the good the goodwill from the good
ones because those ones, that's like, what what a great

(01:15:03):
effect they have on people's lives.

Speaker 1 (01:15:05):
Yes, that's how it all works, definitely, So.

Speaker 2 (01:15:10):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (01:15:10):
So yeah, so this is way before any of these
things came to light. So at Sunday Mass after Irene's funeral,
just to show you how protected priests were, the priest
told the congregation that he knew there were rumors that
a priest was involved in Irene's murder, and he said, quote,
it is impossible that a priest would commit a crime
like this. Don't speak of it. Don't even let yourself

(01:15:33):
think it. He said that himself at to the congregation.

Speaker 2 (01:15:38):
Uh huh, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:15:40):
Right.

Speaker 3 (01:15:42):
In late April, detectives drained the irrigation canal where they
had found Irene's body, and on the bottom was a
light green Eastman code a slide viewer with a long
black cord, so like a slide.

Speaker 2 (01:15:54):
Viewer, yeah, picture viewer, like one of these, yeah, but
like to the wall. Oh okay, like a slide show,
yeah thing, yeah go, we call those code of slide
viewers at our house.

Speaker 1 (01:16:10):
You know, there is a.

Speaker 3 (01:16:11):
Photo of it online if you look it up, I mean,
like of the actual one, so that it's long cord
on it. It's at the bottom of the irrigation canal
where they think her body was thrown in.

Speaker 1 (01:16:20):
Really, Chelostopher it was.

Speaker 3 (01:16:21):
And they also find a candelabra that belonged to the church.
John Fight is like, oh yeah, I bought that code
slide thing last summer. He like is like, oh yeah,
that was mine. And those candelabra, that kind of libra
belongs to the church. So what he probably strangled her
with and what he probably hair with a fucking head
with is at the bottom of the fucking canal, and

(01:16:41):
he raises his fucking hand and it's like, that's mine.

Speaker 2 (01:16:45):
Wow, yeah, because kind of in the confidence of knowing
no one can do anything about it.

Speaker 1 (01:16:49):
Who fucking yeah, maybe, who knows mm hmm. So finally
the priest sits down with the detectives in early May.
He provides, a, of course meticulous account of his actions
on Easter weekend. He says that he had counseled Irene
in the Sacred Heart Rectory. He said, yeah, I totally
did that because she had some information she wanted to
give me that was private, so I brought her. That's
why I brought her in there.

Speaker 2 (01:17:09):
He had because of the confession booth, which is a
muffled closet that no one can hear the from the
outside of, wasn't private enough.

Speaker 3 (01:17:18):
She could only scream her confession as the problems it. No,
he saw her leave though at whatever time, and then
he had these like dumb excuses for why he had
cuts on his hand, and he's like and goodbye. Polygraph
tests implicate him in both Irene's murder and the attack
on Maria Guerrera a couple weeks earlier, and in August,

(01:17:40):
Father Fight is indicted for assault with intent to rape
Marie Guerrera.

Speaker 2 (01:17:45):
Oh shit.

Speaker 1 (01:17:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:17:47):
The jury though, motherfucking deadlocks and the proceedings end in
a mistrial, and so rather than face a second trial
in nineteen sixty two, Father Fight pleads no contest to
reduce charges of aggravated assault, gets fined five hundred dollars.

Speaker 1 (01:18:05):
And that's it. Mm hmmm. Takes that right out of
the goodbye.

Speaker 2 (01:18:10):
He takes it right out of the church bucket.

Speaker 1 (01:18:14):
What do they call it?

Speaker 2 (01:18:15):
The collection place? Oh, I'm losing all of my terminology.
I mean Jesus Christ, that's the guys. Jesus Christ, like
Jesus can see and hear you. If you're trying to
raise people in church, clearly, yeah, you fucking lunative.

Speaker 3 (01:18:33):
So it's now alleged that the district attorney, that the
district attorney at the time and church leaders cut a
deal to stop the investigation into John Fight to protect
the reputation of the church. Also most elected officials at
the time, and it's the Hill Hill Hildego county were
Catholic mostly elected leaders. Yeah, and it was at a

(01:18:55):
time when none other than fucking Senator John F. Kennedy
is running for the present for president that year. Who
is a fucking Catholic. That's right, it's he's the only
He's there's never been a Catholic president before. He's the
there's only one other Catholic that had ever been a
nominee for president in one of the major parties.

Speaker 2 (01:19:15):
He had lost.

Speaker 1 (01:19:16):
So and was it doing I don't remember. I didn't
even write it down.

Speaker 2 (01:19:21):
That wasn't don't think I wouldn't have known.

Speaker 3 (01:19:26):
An anti Catholic prejudice is fucking big time. So they're like,
we need Kennedy to win. We're all fucking Catholics, and
let's not give them a reason to hate Catholics. Oh okay,
So like political for political cos yeahing jfk being fucking elected.

Speaker 1 (01:19:42):
Wow, And like, you know, it's Texas, it's a big
fucking place.

Speaker 2 (01:19:46):
That's so funny to think. I just always said, it's
just my own weird bias, Like I used to think
everyone was Catholic. MM when I was a kid that
I just assumed everyone was Catholic.

Speaker 1 (01:19:57):
So much. Was there a lot of Catholic Well, he
went to a Catholic school and it's Catholic school.

Speaker 2 (01:20:01):
But also our town was just small and mostly Christian,
although then later on I learned that there was a
big bunch of Pedaloma was like one of the biggest
receivers of of immigrants after World War two of Jewish

(01:20:23):
people who are running from the war refugees. Thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:20:28):
Where do they live now?

Speaker 2 (01:20:30):
They still live there, there's Jewish there's a couple of
temples in Pedalom. Yeah, because I think one or two
of the families had like chicken farms, so they're like, everybody,
go out more, go work on the chicken ramps.

Speaker 1 (01:20:42):
Very cool. Yeah, yeah, interesting. That could be a lie. No, no,
you said it. No, I believe it.

Speaker 2 (01:20:50):
I'm almost positive I read that somewhere.

Speaker 3 (01:20:52):
It's true. It feels so true. It feels really good
in my heart. Great, Okay. So basically that means no
murder charges are ever filed against father. Fight and shortly
after the killing, the church transfers him to a far
away monastery. So in the sixties he spent some time
at a treatment center for troubled priests in New Mexico

(01:21:13):
and at monasteries in multiple states. Hold the phone, please,
I will not. I want to go to a treatment
center for troubled.

Speaker 1 (01:21:22):
Priests and kick them all in the deck.

Speaker 2 (01:21:24):
Right the horror movie that needs to be written out
of that.

Speaker 3 (01:21:27):
I mean, like the children come and attack and kill
them all. Oh my god, it's like the Corn. But
add a fucking monastery for troubled quote troubled trouble priests
where it's revenge, the children come out of the fields.
It's called here in troubled priests. You're in trouble.

Speaker 1 (01:21:44):
You're in trouble.

Speaker 2 (01:21:45):
I heard what you did this past summer, right, said Jesus,
said Jesus to the Lord that's fucked up whom Everyone
in that neighborhood where that place was was just like
move away.

Speaker 3 (01:22:00):
Well remember when we watched what was the really great
documentary on Netflix over the summer, Keepers, Yeah, and they
and he went and visited the house where all the
priests had gotten sent to and they lived in.

Speaker 1 (01:22:13):
They were all child lusters and shit.

Speaker 2 (01:22:15):
Ye.

Speaker 3 (01:22:15):
Keepers is still fucking great. Everyone should watch it. It's
so good and listen if you want to have a
binge weekend of terrible shit. You should watch Deliver Us
from Evil, which you you need to watch. It's historical
information that you need to know about. It's just fucking
life lessons and you just need to like calm your
pessimism a little bit optimism.

Speaker 2 (01:22:37):
It's gonna say, well it also there's it's that thing
of it feels like a very new cultural thing where
it's like everybody's got to get real with the fact
that that true sociopaths and psychopaths move in this world
in exactly these unexpected ways. They are baseball coaches, they
are priests, They move into their.

Speaker 1 (01:22:58):
They manipulate, and they're good at it.

Speaker 2 (01:23:01):
They're good at it. You're not.

Speaker 1 (01:23:02):
And you need to get okay with that.

Speaker 2 (01:23:03):
Yes, you got you got to. If you are a
single parent, you got to keep your eye double peeled.
You've got to triple check all the people that want
to be in your childhood life all that stuff. Which
we're saying that to people who know it by heart.

Speaker 3 (01:23:15):
I mean, like that's yeah, but you forget that shit, man,
Like when it's you and your people and this you know,
a guy you're dating, Yeah, of course it's fine.

Speaker 1 (01:23:23):
You know what I mean.

Speaker 3 (01:23:23):
It's like, of course you don't think about it in
terms of your own life.

Speaker 1 (01:23:27):
You think about it outside of you.

Speaker 2 (01:23:29):
Yes, it's just so. It's I remember reading that Sports
Illustrated thing about how many baseball coaches, like little league coaches,
were pedophiles, and it's just the most frightening and insane thing.
I want to read that. You got to read it.
It's it's insane. I'm pretty sure was the cover Sports
Illustrated like ten years ago.

Speaker 1 (01:23:48):
Oh my god, I need to read that.

Speaker 2 (01:23:49):
It's so crazy because it's then they're they're in the lives.
They're right there with all the sports and everything's dude
in sports and couldn't be safer.

Speaker 1 (01:23:57):
In games, and we need to go to this and.

Speaker 2 (01:23:58):
Practices and then they then that's how they select the
ones who don't have anybody that's gonna come and beat
the shit out of them if they do anything to
the kid they like, that's how they spot vulnerable children
and people who are I mean, it's just the most
fucked up thing.

Speaker 1 (01:24:12):
Very awful.

Speaker 3 (01:24:15):
Also, Okay, also the movie Spotlight, which came out recently amazing,
is about that too. So watch so have a nice
binge weekend and then watch Bob's Burgers and big mouth
God to get yourself to feel better.

Speaker 2 (01:24:28):
Yes, big mouth is amazing.

Speaker 3 (01:24:30):
Big mouths so good. Okay, New Mexico monasteries. Oh, here's fun.
At one point, here's fun. Here's here's fun. Here's fun.
At one point, he served as a supervisor charged with
clearing priests for assignments to churches. So the priests who
got sent to the fucking you're you're a terrible person.

(01:24:50):
Get out of this town. They're gonna fucking murder you.

Speaker 2 (01:24:52):
The attempted rapist priests, Uh.

Speaker 3 (01:24:54):
Huh, they sent into this these places and the monasteries,
and our fucking friend John Fight was on the fucking
cl house to let them go back into the goddamn world.

Speaker 2 (01:25:02):
Good, this motherfucker healthy. Yeah, just good decisions all around. Yeah,
being made everybody at every level. We have one open seat.
Who should we fill with? John Fight? Wait? Is the
devil not available? Okay? Then right.

Speaker 3 (01:25:17):
So one of the men that he held clear for parish
was James Porter, who isn't the guy from deliver Us
from Evil but could be a child molester convicted of
assaulting more than a hundred victims, who was a priest.
He was like, get them back in there. Yeah, you're
in the game. Yeah, fucking dick.

Speaker 2 (01:25:35):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (01:25:36):
John Fight left the priesthood in nineteen seventy two and
moved to Phoenix, worked as an insurance salesman, got married,
had kids and grandkids, lives a fucking normal, goddamn life.

Speaker 2 (01:25:47):
Whoa.

Speaker 3 (01:25:48):
Meanwhile, Irene's parents, Nick and josephina A Garza, they both
passed away in the nineties without ever seeing anyone prosecuted
for Irene's murder. But they were assured by people in
the church that father Fight, who they always fucking suspected,
would be punished by the church if they found out
anything had been had been done, and they were assured

(01:26:11):
that this was a bigger sentence handed than any court
could hand down. And so they're like, okay, great, because
they still fucking believe in the Catholic Church because they
were fucking Catholics. Well yeah, so April two thousand and two,
let's jump ahead, okay, all right, forty two years after
the murder of Irene Garza, a former monk named Dale Tashni,
who had left the priestthood more than thirty years earlier

(01:26:33):
to marry, Suddenly he gets a fucking conscience. He says
that in the summer of nineteen sixty three, he was
asked to counsel John Fight while while John stayed at
the monastery where this guy Dale was a fucking priest monk.
During their six months of counseling, John Fight told Tashne

(01:26:57):
of the night that Irene died. They called the fucking
investigator and was like, let me tell you something. He
told him that father Fight had asked her to come
to the church rectory and had heard her confession, and
after the confession he had restrained Irene, maybe bound and
gagged her. He had fondled her breasts, and before he

(01:27:19):
returned to the sanctuary to hear confessions, he had moved
her to the rectory basement and later that evening he
moved her to another location. Then on Easter Sunday, so
she's still alive. Then on Easter Sunday, he put Irene
in a bathtub and placed a bag over her head,
and as he was leaving the bathroom, he heard her say,

(01:27:39):
I can't breathe, I can't breathe. And then Tashani said
when he came back later on that day or early evening,
he found her dead in the bathtub.

Speaker 1 (01:27:49):
And then that.

Speaker 3 (01:27:51):
Night he put her in a car and took her
and dropped her appel along a roadside where there was
a canal. Uh Tashi had kept it to himself out
of a sense of a religious obligation for.

Speaker 1 (01:28:06):
More than four decades. He didn't tell anyone.

Speaker 2 (01:28:10):
It's like he confessed to him, and you can't in
terms of being a priest. That hears confession, you're not
allowed to repeat it. I mean, I feel so grateful
that he came forward and said stuff. But at the
same time, it's like.

Speaker 3 (01:28:27):
Some this this man murdered this woman. It doesn't that's
then that's not a priest. Then that's not a priest anymore.
The man who murdered someone is not doesn't get to
have that.

Speaker 2 (01:28:38):
No, but everybody gets it. It's not just for priests.
It's that's the that's like they're talking to God through
you and you don't get to intervene. Yeah, because they're
asking for forgiveness, and so you have to be that
no matter what somebody says to you, as a priest,
you have to say you're forgiven.

Speaker 1 (01:28:53):
He was counseling him, so it wasn't confession. I mean,
I don't know if technically, oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:28:58):
Well, I bet you they'd say it was just for
the protection, right. But the other thing is, wasn't she
found brutally beaten? Yeah, so that's bullshit.

Speaker 3 (01:29:07):
Was beaten and raped while unconscious, So clearly he left
some shit out or they just tell you everything in
this article.

Speaker 2 (01:29:13):
Yeah, that's too much, but I would bet you that.
Like he's basically saying, well, I just did a couple
away and she died, and then she's so, I mean,
it's unfortunate. Like he's basically telling the story to this
other priest like, too bad that happened, as opposed to
you finally fucking attack this woman.

Speaker 3 (01:29:31):
Well, one of the things that Tashne said was he
didn't show what I would consider to be compunction or
sorrow or grief or anything like that. So he had
kept it too himself. And then he at this point
in two thousand and two weeks in his seventies and
he had a change of heart and he was like
I'll fucking testify, like let's do wowow, which is incredible.

(01:29:53):
So Texas Rangers then began to reinvestigate the case. When
he's contacted Fight, who's now sixty nine year olds says
that man doesn't exist anymore and he won't say anything
else like.

Speaker 2 (01:30:05):
The man who raped and murdered a woman. Uh huh,
Yeah he does, dude, Yeah he does. Sorry, he's in you. So.

Speaker 3 (01:30:11):
Rangers also interviewed father O'Brien, who back then was like
I saw scratches on his hands. And he tells the
rangers that a few months after the murder fight, he
had confronted fight about whether he had killed Irene, and
the priest had told him everything. So he too was like, yep,
I know everything. I'll fucking testify it.

Speaker 1 (01:30:30):
Oh shit, And yeah, he'll tell everything.

Speaker 2 (01:30:34):
So and I would say this too. This was back
I think that people very rarely broke that, Like if
I'm telling you, if I'm giving you confession, you're like,
basically you have to forgive me the end. You don't
get to say anything that's in like you know police
TV shows all the time.

Speaker 1 (01:30:51):
Is that not true anymore?

Speaker 2 (01:30:52):
Well, no, I'm saying I think back then no one
would ever break it, whereas nowadays, I think it's like
now everyone's seeing the reason that that rule was put
into place maybe not have been for the best reason, right,
or that there were many more people that would exploit
it than anyone would explact.

Speaker 1 (01:31:09):
Yeah, yeah, that's true.

Speaker 2 (01:31:12):
So even Catholic defensive. Sorry, that's okay.

Speaker 3 (01:31:16):
So then in July two thousand and two, the Brownsville
Herald ran a front page story on Irene's murder and
the suspicion about John Fight and so Hildego County District
Attorney Renee Guerrera was asked if he planned to pursue
an indictment in the case because they were like, we
have all this fucking evidence now, including two people who
he told murdered Irene, and they're willing to testify. And

(01:31:39):
this guy, Renee was like, can it said quote, can.

Speaker 2 (01:31:42):
It be solved?

Speaker 3 (01:31:42):
Well, I guess if people leave that pigs can fly
anything as possible. And then he said, why would anyone
be haunted by her death? She died, her killer got away.
So he fucking flippantly, who is this guy, this guy,
Renee Guerrera, He's a fucking Hildig No wait, hill Go,
thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:32:02):
Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (01:32:03):
I only say that because of the movie starring Vigo
Mortenson about him and his horse.

Speaker 1 (01:32:08):
Hilld All go Hidalgo, Yeah, thank you Jesus. Yeah. So
at the time.

Speaker 3 (01:32:13):
So then he got all this negative publicity and he's like, okay, fine,
uh sorry he was the prosecutor though he was the
district attorney. Oh okay, okay. So he got all this
negative publicity because her fucking family's still alive. Her parents aren't,
but the rest of her family's like, we fucking care
that she died. Yeah, So he in two thousand and four,
he asked, he has two of his prosecutors present the

(01:32:33):
evidence to a grand jury to indict John Fight, but
they don't fucking call either of those priests to testify,
the ones who he told that he killed them. And so,
of course, in two thousand and four, the jury declined
to indict him and no build the case. So that
was the chance to fucking finally before John Fight dies,
to get him held responsible for the murder of Irene.

Speaker 2 (01:32:55):
And those two priests had said that they would testify,
they wanted to, they were waiting the fucking phone to
be called up to testify, and they just didn't do it.

Speaker 3 (01:33:03):
They didn't call them. And it turns out, of course,
Rene Guerrera was Catholic. Yeah right, yeah, So ten fucking
years later, in twenty fourteen, there's a district attorney's race
in Hidalgo County, and finally Rene gets fucking beat by
Ricardo Rodriguez. And in his race he promised he would

(01:33:26):
re examine the case of elected. Oh shit, so fucking
Ricardo is elected.

Speaker 2 (01:33:31):
Wow. Great.

Speaker 3 (01:33:32):
They spent a year and two months re examining the
case and all the evidence, And more than fifty seven
fucking years after the murder of Irene Garza, eighty three
year old John Fight is finally fucking arrested in Arizona
for first degree murder. Former monk Dale fucking Tashni eighty
eight years old fucking testifies eighty eight years old.

Speaker 2 (01:33:55):
Now when you say monk, does it say anything else
about that him being a monk?

Speaker 3 (01:34:00):
There's just a photo of him with that hair, you
know what I'm saying. He's got the robes and the hair,
and you're like, oh, honey, you must have been dedicated,
because my god, he looks like he's on spaceballs.

Speaker 2 (01:34:12):
I'm just I'm just trying to figure out what that is.
If he's like a Christian brother, what like his specific
deal was.

Speaker 3 (01:34:20):
I'm sure it's very involved, but I don't understand, Okay,
I just knew that it was like a monk, but
he was like but it was like priests hanging out
with him.

Speaker 2 (01:34:29):
Yep.

Speaker 1 (01:34:30):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:34:30):
He's just in a different kind of like set up
Catholic thing. Yeah, okay, maybe he made wine the hair though. Yep,
my god. So Dale, what's up?

Speaker 3 (01:34:41):
Eighty eight year old Dale testifies against him. December eighth?
What's the date today?

Speaker 2 (01:34:46):
The twelfth?

Speaker 3 (01:34:47):
Yes, December fucking eighth, twenty seventeen, fucking four days ago.

Speaker 2 (01:34:52):
Oh shit. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:34:54):
After a six day trial in the Hidalgo County Courthouse
in Edinburgh, a jury fucking convicted John fight whoa now
eighty five year old ex priest, of murdering Irene Garza,
and he receives a life sentence in prison.

Speaker 2 (01:35:09):
Oh my god.

Speaker 1 (01:35:10):
Yeah, this just fucking came out.

Speaker 2 (01:35:12):
That's incredible.

Speaker 3 (01:35:14):
Nineteen sixty has been happened in fucking what are we
twenty seventeen. Yeah, she was still alive today. Irene would
be eighty three years old. In a letter written to
a friend right before she died, she stated that she's
happier than she's ever been and said to her friend,
I remember the last time we talked. I told you
I was afraid of death. Well, I think I'm cured.

(01:35:37):
You see, I've been going to communion in mass daily
and you can't imagine the courage and faith and happiness
it's given me. Oh and uh, that's the story of
the murder of Irene Garza by motherfucker John Fight.

Speaker 2 (01:35:53):
Wow, I can't believe that ended. Well, I know, right,
it never happened in the Catholic church. Every time it's
a Catholic Church story. Yeah, it frustrates you. It discuss
you cold cases too, goes crazy.

Speaker 1 (01:36:08):
Yeah. So she's like in one of those walkers in
court that are also chairs.

Speaker 3 (01:36:12):
Yeah you know that, you see, Yeah, trying to look
all old. And he a couple of things he said
when he got arrested were like, I don't understand this
has happened in nineteen sixty like his excuse, So, I don't
understand this was happening now, this was so long ago.
And this woman says to him, there's no statute of
limitations on murder. Like he's trying to play it off
like this was so long ago.

Speaker 2 (01:36:32):
Yeah, why are you guys making a big deal about it?

Speaker 3 (01:36:34):
Yeah, exactly. He's acting like a confused old man. Yeah,
when he's a fucking sexual predator and murderer. Well, also,
it doesn't matter how old he is. It doesn't matter
how old he is, It doesn't matter.

Speaker 1 (01:36:44):
What his opinion about a grandpa or.

Speaker 2 (01:36:47):
Nice for that is not relevant. You already were confused.
That's why you're like this. So your opinion about it
and how you see it is not valid because according
to you, no one's life matters, and any woman is
a woman. Get the crass sixty who cares?

Speaker 1 (01:37:04):
No?

Speaker 2 (01:37:04):
No people, A lot of people care. A lot of
people care, and a lot of people are tired of
people like that guy exploiting positions of not just power,
but automatic trust.

Speaker 1 (01:37:17):
Yeah, it's that thing.

Speaker 2 (01:37:18):
That's what's so gross. Can you imagine going into a
church or like, I can't imagine going into a church
and getting a creepy vibe of like, oh no, the
guy that works here is scaring me. Yeah, that's the
exact opposite of how churches are supposed to work.

Speaker 3 (01:37:33):
Well, there should be no such thing as automatic trust. Yeah,
I mean it sucks, but even you know, you're fucking
pediatrician or you're fucking you know, you're what's it called anything?
There's just there's no such thing anymore, right, and there
never was. We just let it happen, right, Yeah, it's

(01:37:53):
okay to be.

Speaker 2 (01:37:55):
Just be aware, be careful, and thank god for the
Internet and checkie checkie check everyone's fucking everything record. Yeah. Wow,
that's amazing. Yeah, such a good story.

Speaker 1 (01:38:08):
Thank you, Hi, Hi, that tense episode. I know.

Speaker 2 (01:38:16):
Yeah, there's a there's a lot of feelings.

Speaker 1 (01:38:18):
What anything good this week for you?

Speaker 2 (01:38:22):
I guess it was so fun to do those live
shows we had. I had such a good time. You
say I did too, speaking for you, but like, it's
just such a joy to have that be a job.
It's insane because I'm always prepared, Like I really hate
leaving my house and I hate leaving my dogs, and
I get a little stressy for that. But it's always
just we have so much fun. And then there's people

(01:38:45):
that just like give us really nice presents and say
really nice things. I one thing that I guess gets
me is a lot of people talk to me about
my mom. Yeah, and it's like's brought up a lot.
It gets brought up a lot of Like it's a
young women who are like I'm I'm a psych nurse
or my minding to be a nurse.

Speaker 3 (01:39:03):
But there's a lot of my mom passed away recently too,
and you really helped me. Yeah, just by talking about it. Yeah, exactly.
It's it's I don't know, it's.

Speaker 2 (01:39:13):
You know. It's it's cool when we get to go
out and hear from people about like the meaning of things,
because to us it's like I just go, oh, well,
I just did a very interesting murder case in a
mediocre manner in our way, and then we talked about
a bunch of bullshit. It's like, I don't know, it

(01:39:34):
just is very meaningful. It's just like such a nice feeling. Yeah,
you know, we have like lots of friends. We don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:39:39):
As we say at the end of every show, it's like,
we thank you guys for letting us do this as
a job. The two of us are fucking blown away
by the fact that our lives have turned into this
incredible thing because of this podcast that we started on
a fucking whim. It's super weird. It's super weird, it

(01:39:59):
is and fun. We didn't expect this. We are in
awe of all of you guys who are like these
incredible people and.

Speaker 2 (01:40:08):
Like showing up like I barely leave my house to
do anything. So like when I stand there and like,
it's like a theater full of people who have all
like went and bought tickets and showed up and some
have signs and some have Uh it's just crazy funny
shirts they made, yeah, cookies and crafts and mugs. Yeah,
it's just really I just feel super lucky.

Speaker 3 (01:40:30):
Every time we come home from a trip or anytime
we go on a fucking trip for the show.

Speaker 1 (01:40:35):
It's it's mind boggling.

Speaker 3 (01:40:37):
Yeah, it's so fun and uh yeah, so I think
we're about to end the year with one hundred episodes. Yes,
so I guess maybe it's just thank you guys for
letting us do this incredible thing. This year has been
fucking bananas an awesome and we're honored. It's incredible, it's beautiful.
We fucking appreciate it so much, we really do.

Speaker 2 (01:40:55):
And thank you. Thanks for I don't know, thanks for
being thanks for thanks for liking it. Yeah, it's weird,
it is, what's your thing, that's the same fans, I'm
gonna go same sys share. Are we gonna do sharess?

Speaker 1 (01:41:09):
We're gonna shame, shame it.

Speaker 2 (01:41:11):
We're gonna shame. We're a shame Share, shame share, okay cool,
I love it, I do too. Well, then stay sexy
and don't get murdered. Goodbye, bye Elvis. What cookie?

Speaker 1 (01:41:26):
That was a definitive yees want a cookie.

Speaker 3 (01:41:30):
Cookie,