House Of Hammer - Part 1

With Oatmeal Pizza's Josh Campbell in for Jordan, Josh and TC discuss Max's Armie Hammer documentary.

Episode Transcript

(00:12):
Welcome into the dirt Bag Culture Hour. It's ninety seven one the Freak,
two o'clock again, two o'clock ona Saturday. Again, as has been
the case for a little bit.Now Jordan's out, he's still dealing with
medical stuff. They got the stoneout of the kidney. He's been having

(00:36):
a kidney stone and on the secondtry they did get the stones out of
his kidney, but there's been furthercomplications. It turns out having a stent
in that particular canal for that extendeda period of time can be difficult and
that's caused some ongoing problems that haveprevented him from performing to his fullest in

(01:00):
this In this week's show, Soas we have been doing, we will
you know truck on. We gotOatmeal Pizza's Josh Campbell in sitting for him.
Josh, Welcome to the show.Hello TC. Glad to be back
on. Josh is one of mybest friends. I'd say I spend as
much time talking with Josh is justabout anyone that doesn't live in my house.

(01:23):
So I'm hopeful that that kind ofbond and chemistry will translate smoothly into
a radio program. I'm just gonnado my best to not curse this time.
I've I've already got two strikes.Yeah yeah, I didn't you curse
in the Avatar episode two? Yeah? Yeah, cursed in the Avatar episode
yeah history, Yeah, because youwere you were on ben AND's skin talking

(01:44):
about a bird. You got abird shot yep, flying to Hawaii,
strick by bird, and you wereunable to describe that without using words that
the FCC is deemed unacceptable. Can'tcan't even say that stuff over air Traffic
Control annals, that's right, That'sright, that's the FAA. Yeah,
yeah, they control those. Sothis is all like I'm by the time

(02:09):
I want So we want to talkabout the Army Hammer documentary. Yes,
it's called House of Hammer. It'son Max. I do think it's good.
It's a gripping full exploration of thetrue evils of the Astros Jersey sponsor.

(02:30):
That was my main takeaway is thatanyone anywhere related to this family that's
responsible for accidental petroleum, they aresome bad dudes. Interesting as a starting
point to find out that occidental petroleumwas really in dire straits, and it

(02:52):
took one hundred thousand dollars a merehundred thousand dollars investment by the newly wedded
armand Hammer in order to just turnthat whole thing around and make it the
sixteenth largest company on the planet.Yeah, I mean I think that he
just like it's it's kind of likea so I've been reading I read the
book Predators Ball I finished it thisweek, nice, and it's it's about

(03:15):
finance, okay, And so I'veimbued with a fresh and entirely unearned confidence
about how companies work. And Ithink that's a case where he could have
just founded his own company. Butin this case, he could buy that
one. Uh and the value that, like the money he would have to

(03:38):
spend buying it, is less thanthe value of the losses on their books.
Okay, So buy like now,like it's it's he can make more
money than starting his own company,right right, right, So like he's
just like, you know, I'veI've got some I've got this idea for
some resource extraction things that I wantto do, And so I could just

(04:01):
found you know, armand Hammer Petroleum. But that wouldn't carry any of these
losses that I could then when Imake profits. Be like, at the
end of the year. Actually Ididn't make any money, so he shouldn't
tax me on it. Because I'mthe head of this company that lost excellent
we inherited all this debt. Yeahyeah, yeah, he's buying the debt
so that you know, uh,he can he can count it all on

(04:25):
the tax sheets. I think that'swhat happened. Yeah, they because they
kind of imply in the documentary that. And I wonder, did he already
you know, research about Oxidental Petroleum'sprecarious state before he sought that third wife
that had the money to get givehim the money in order to be able
to do the deal. Yeah?Or is it like just a fate circumstance

(04:47):
where it all seemed to happen atthe same Yeah, but uh, it's
it's just it's a little funny.Like by the time I saw this documentary,
I really wanted to talk about it. It generated a lot of thoughts
that I think we'll make for goodconversations over the next two hours. But
this wasn't my idea. This wasJordan coming to me and being like,

(05:09):
we got to do this, dude. I think it was Mallory suggested to
him that they watch it together,and then he goes to me, He's
like, you know, he shovedme up against the Waltz, so we
have to talk about house and hammerand here we are doing that, doing
it, but but but he's nothere, which you know, goes to

(05:30):
show one how close we are toresuming normal activity and to what kind of
you know, the difficulties heal upagainst that he was not able to do
this thing that he very much wantedto do with you folks. Yeah.
I and you know, he's probablynot even going to listen, just because
it's going to be too hard forhim to emotionally deal with listening to me
talk about it instead of him.That's right, that's right. You don't

(05:51):
want to watch some other guy goon a date. Yeah, it's you're
a lady. Yeah, he doesn'twant to feel like a you know,
especially not your dad. What ifwhat if your dad just offers you some
money to buy your girlfriend? Yeah, that was one of the things I
cut off. But we can we'lltalk about it. Let Okay, we're
jumping around like the documentary did.Yeah. I think that Jordan is going

(06:15):
to be doing the show without menext week. Okay, I think that
he's got some special circumstances lined up, So I just wanted to tease that
we'll start getting things balanced out totalnumber of TC shows that Jordan's shows will
eventually reach an equal number. No, probably not, but yeah. So

(06:36):
this House of Hammer documentary, Iwould say more than half is about Army
Hammer's family. The Social Network actorwho was embroiled in a scandal because of
the way that he has treated womenin the past. Came out during the
pandemic. Yeah, which I thinkwhere that Vanity Fair article come out end

(06:59):
of twenty twenty early twenty twenty one. Yeah, it sounds right, one
of those. Yeah, I rememberreading that, and that was kind of
my only interaction with the whole story, Like I knew kind of going in
the background, people talking about,oh my gosh, he's a cannibal or
you know, all those types ofthings that were going. Yeah, that
was the big headline. There's atext where he said I am one hundred

(07:21):
percent of cannibal. People really didn'tmove too much past that. It's a
good smoke screen. If you don'twant people to find out about the other,
you know, more traumatic stuff that'sreally going on, you just go
ahead and throw like a crazy oneout there. Yeah, and so the
documentary filmmakers start with that, butthen expand to do you know, this

(07:45):
guy actually has a pretty messed upfamily, and so they spend a good
amount of time on his Army's dad, Army's dad's dad, and then Army's
dad's dad's dad is the guy whoyou know created as we said, did
not found Oxidal Petroleum, but wasresponsible for their greatest success, built them
into the company that they are today. To some extent, I think they've

(08:07):
kind of fallen off since, notlike greatly, yeah, but you know,
they've they've gone through some tough timesrelative to the position they were whenever
Armand died. These jerks keep tryingto push renewables. Yeah, but so
uh so Army. That's that's thefirst episode of the things. I figured

(08:28):
we'd just start there, right,Yeah, I don't know the way Like
by the end of the episode,I was like, all right, you
guys did prove it out. Thisguy is a bad guy. But along
the way there were I'm a littletroubled by the sense that the documentary filmmakers

(08:50):
and I have different values and standards, and they they seem to like there's
point that's where they like try togo out of their way by saying like
BDSM is fine, it's just theway he was doing it was wrong.
But I don't believe them on there, like they they seem to think like

(09:11):
the whole thing is like scandalous andbad, the like it, like even
if he were getting gaining the consent, because a lot of it, like
the Cannibal text really gets at this, human communication is extremely difficult. You've
got an idea in your head,and you know, trying to get that

(09:31):
idea into someone else's head is younever do it all the way, you
know, like I mean, unlessit's like hand me that you know.
Yeah, it's just so hard.And it seemed to me like he was
having some troubles because the loss ofyou know, the loss in transmission of
his meaning to the other person's LikeI suspect that he does not fully literally

(09:56):
mean that he is a cannibal.And you know, this all goes to
like how you define cannibal. Iremember I once saw a comedy routine about
HBO's documentary The Cannibal Cop, anduh, it turns out that the Cannibal
Cop at no point any part ofany person, Okay, and the same

(10:18):
thing with Army, you know,like there, like he's doing a lot
of talking about eating human ribs.Yeah I'm not great smoke your ribs,
but you know he no evidence he'shad any ribs, you know, Yeah,
And so you know it's like like, because I think that whatever the
whatever, everyone in America finds outthat he typed I'm one percent of Cannibal,

(10:43):
Like the chances that the idea itwas in his head ends up accurately
in everyone who reads that's no chance, you know, right, although I
will say if you type I amone of Cannibal, I'm trying to figure
out what the nuanced alternative angle thatwas going on in his head was,

(11:03):
meaning like it is a pretty Idon't think it's hard. He's all this
stuff that he's talking about, Likeyou know, he doesn't actually want to
like make people slaves, you know, like I mean I think he does.
I think he does, but he'sa very he understands that they don't

(11:26):
want that. You would have toagree with that, right, But that's
why he like, if if theywanted it, then they wouldn't be in
the dynamic that I think he waslooking for. I think he was getting
off on the the fear aspect ofthe whole thing. It appears to be
a disturbing degree to which that maybe true. But I would say it's
still somewhat ambiguous, Like you can'treally know what's in his heart, I

(11:48):
guess, is the only thing Iwould say. But there's there's some indication
that I'm very troubled by that hewas not looking for consenting partners but instead
was trying to convince unconsenting partners thatthey ought to consent. Yeah, it
does seem when they in the instanceswhere they might have even pushed back,
like that's somehow got him going evenmore, Like he's like, yeah,

(12:13):
this is the kind of response Iwant. And all of it feels like
compulsive behavior. Oh, it feelslike he has very little control over his
desires like that. He just youknow, he's tunnel visioned. He wants
a thing. And that thing thathe said on the Colbert interview about the
frontal lobe, he's like, mywife says, I've got a frontal lobe

(12:35):
deficiency. Yeah, he's used thatline in a lot of interviews. He
did it in like an L magazineinterview, he did it in a on
a GQ interview. I suspect he'sright. What do you think? It's
one of those things where going backand reading the Vandity Fair interview again or

(12:56):
the Vanity Fair piece and then acouple of his other interviews again, and
after watching the documentary, it makesit seem like, oh, wow,
he's not really I have a differentperspective on seeing what he said in those
things, Like he's not telegraphing something. He's actually just kind of putting it
out there and everyone's just like,huh, what a charming guy with these

(13:18):
funny jokes, and he's kind oflike letting you in, giving you a
window to his actual psyche all thetime. Yeah. I think that he's
interested and not entirely ashamed. Yeah, you know, like I think that
he wants to kind of don't whatever, but yeah I do. Just so

(13:39):
I like to the going back tothe discussion of like, you know,
is it a plus for him thatthey're not looking for this? I just
think it is. I imagine thatif someone did not, I don't know
whatever. I don't want to beafraid or a prude or whatever, but
I will put out there I personallydo not see the upside of the BDSM

(14:03):
stuff. So I'm just doing alot of guessing here. Yeah, I
don't I don't really know what thisis. Like I should have had a
BDSM expert on. Yeah, yeah, well there's the one. The documentary
you can just you can just listento them, although I again suspect that
the documentary filmmakers are shopping for someonewho will just pair it the things that
they want to say, which is, you know, and this isn't b

(14:26):
DSM, but this is is badAnd that's all with all documentaries like the
there is you know, and pickingthe experts. They're curating it to get
across the viewpoint that they want toget across. But I just figured that
if you are that kind of person, it's not something that most people are

(14:46):
open about. And it's probably apretty delicate dance trying to figure out,
you know, like whenever he isjust like talking to these girls a lot,
just like about themselves, and you'relike just being interested in them personally
and everything like that. Like Ithey present that as like possibly part of

(15:07):
the nefarious game. You know thatthis is all manipulation tactic, and some
of it may be manipulation tactic.But I refuse to believe that there isn't
at least some part of it,that he's just the normal guy that likes
that kind of stuff. Who doesn'tdude, When you meet a new girl
that's into you and like you guysget to talk about each other and like

(15:28):
the thrill of intimacy and having intimateconversations, it's like that's I don't know
anyone on earth who doesn't enjoy that, doesn't think that that's fun just on
its face, like it's an excitingtime. I think it's like that dance
of is it all intentionally premeditated?Like he's sitting back there and he's got

(15:48):
I've got a plan. This ishow I deal with women. First I
enter in like this, and thenI do this line and then I do
or is it just it's almost subconsciousbecause it is just his personality, but
because it doesn't be like deficient andas a way of relating with people,
I wonder like the what they calllove bombing type of stuff where he would

(16:11):
like blow the those girls up intheir instagram, you know, hundreds of
messages a day, calling them twentytimes a day type of stuff. Yeah,
like that is stuff where I thinkmany women would find that really creepy
and be turned off by it.But maybe because he is who he is
that gets a fruit, gets getsa pass, where that would be a

(16:32):
filter that most other guys would immediatelyfail if they started like that in the
first couple of days of an interactionwith a woman. And I mean,
you say many women, but thatthat's acknowledging that it's not all women,
true, true, Like, youknow, all this is like he's looking
for a certain thing, and Iguess it's just the question of what is
that thing, because I think it'sit's what you know. My original point

(16:55):
is that this is all tough todo. You're like, you're you're having
these exciting convers stations with women andyou're interested in if they are interested in
the kind of sexual things that you'reinto. But like, it's probably not
a good tactic to just like onthe first date be like, so is
it cool if I tie you up? Right? Like, even the people

(17:18):
who might be open to that mightbe scared by you being too forward about
it. So it's it seems likea thing where just like societal mores dictate
that you're going to have to dancearound it, you're going to have to
have a little bit of sleight ofhand, you know, like like that's
almost what even the people who dolike it are looking for. And so
is he doing that or does heknow that they don't like it and the

(17:41):
fact that they don't like it andhe can convince them to do it anyways
is what he's looking for. That'sthe far more sinister charge. And you
know, I think that by theend they pretty much do prove that out
some of the things that goldn't startthat wouldn't be the first thing he'd lead
with. He'd lead with, like, my family is very messed up.
I've got you know which I justI just hear that, and I'm like,

(18:04):
I know that they are messed up. I'm sure that it's it's probably
really helpful for him to talk aboutit right, right, and I talk
about like my family stuff too.I don't think I ever opened up with
it in the first time I meetsomebody, but I could. I could
understand if you're trying to be thoselike are the best things, Like like
if you do meet someone who youdo feel comfortable saying that like quickly too,

(18:27):
it's like, yes, we brokethrough all the other crap that doesn't
matter, and we can immediately getto the stuff that does that's exciting.
Yeah. Yeah, And and itcreates a vulnerability immediately and sort of an
authenticity that's like, Okay, we'rein a trust tree. We can we
can share vulnerable things. And youdon't once you get that sort of connection,

(18:52):
you don't ride away start talking aboutthe violence, sex stuff. Yeah,
you still then you do the puppylove thing for while. Yeah,
and you're just fawning all over eachother and you know, making them feel
like they're the only person in theworld and all of that type of stuff,
and that that, I guess furthercreates this development of trust. So

(19:14):
when it gets when the subject firstgets broached, it's not a deal breaker
immediately. It's like, oh,yeah, I mean I love you.
I guess I'd consider doing anything becauseI love you. Yeah. Yeah,
They're already pretty intertwined. Yeah,it's not an easy connection to sever Yeah,
and I mean to your point oflike, whether it's calculated or not,
they do present the evidence of himcarrying on several relationships in pretty much

(19:41):
the same fashion, the exact samewords and phrases. Yeah, exactly,
the same. He's got a littlebit of a but like, is that
like a playbook of deception or isit like a comfort zone? And like
he's the same person in all thoserelationships. He's going to contin in you
being him regardless, and so youknow, like I just what are you

(20:03):
what are you gonna do about thefact that he's talking the same way?
Like, I don't know, Iguess if if you guys have never repeated
any words and phrases of your crossrelationships, congratulations, you're better than me.
That's that's that's the beauty of gettingmarried to the person you dated in
high school and never having another relationshipyour whole life. Yeah, what about

(20:26):
your relationship with your bandmates? It'sgreat. I just mean, you know,
do you you probably talk to allof them the similar way like I
just did. Whatever, there's morerelationships in your life. Oh yeah I
have, But like I have differentpet names for different people in the band,
Like I call Nick cutes. Yeah, because that's what we've said to
each other for a long time sinceyou probably sometimes too hardly, ever,

(20:49):
and if it is, it's notlike, uh an intentional thing. Yeah,
you know, Yeah, he's muchmore dude, other. Okay,
yeah, that's night. I didn'tmean have a loud sound there. Yeah,
So we're we're talking about the Houseof Hammer. The documentary is available

(21:14):
on Max. I don't know.I I do feel I think that you're
detecting, like I'm mostly undefensive becauseI think that it turns out on the
balance of evidence, Army Hammer isa bad guy. But I definitely have
some amount of instinct of like,is there a sympathetic way we can look

(21:36):
at this? And I was.I was very interested in like just kind
of examining that myself, like whydo I feel that way? And I
think I found some answers, andso I'd like to talk about that phenomenon.
We can do that next. Thisis the dirt Bag Culture Hour.
Jordan is out again fortunately, butwe do have Josh Campbell and he will
talk with us about the documentary next. On ninety seven one, The Freak